Thomas Merton on St. Bernard of Clairveaux

[steve40004]

So you are saying he was a human being? 

[MyBetty111]

Merton went into Zen and Eastern religions. Orthodox monk Seraphim Rose has a lot to say about how Merton went astray.

[jezkn]

Also-what about the poor nurse and her feelings -when he was forced to end the relationship. Merton was aware of the contradiction here but we are not privy to his thoughts on this but might be surprised at where it would have taken him. Also - dont forget Merton had a relationship with a poor cleaning woman when at Oxford and had a child by her (both killed in the Blitz). This informed all his thinking on Natural Love (and guilt) and was a pime motivation for entering the Catholic Church.

[jezkn]

But it isnt clear that Merton's believed his relationship with the Nurse was wrong-and indeed if he fell in love with her why should that be wrong. He reported himself because he was under obedience but this was incredibly painful to him and informs greatly Merton's theology of natural love as being God given. In a monastic context of course -there is a terrible contradiction here - and we are seeing its rotten 'fruit' falling today in the sexual malaise afflicting the enforced celibate life.

[maddogmargetts1]

@belucky208 CS Lewis points out 4 loves, one of which is altruistic or God's love. I agree that "wrong" love cannot really be love as in altruism, but is motherly, brotherly or sexual love wrong or right? These are certainly not God's love.

[whitenationalist52]

@belucky208 acting in the flesh and spirit of pride is self justification not the divine will that is perfect love

[FacetonoFace]

Thank you.Much appreciated.

[pashe01]

@belucky208 I know this is two years ago but I wanted to answer this. It could mean loving from the ego. If one is loving from that then there is no confusion.

[xander7ful]

Merton had a problem of his own with love, so he knew whereof he spoke. He fell in love with a nurse who was taking care of him in the local hospital after back surgery. They began to meet privately and things were heating up. So, being a good monk, he reported on himself and ended the relationship. Though painful, he understood that love in his case was wrong.

[TheCoachhop21]

One can love wrongly by not conforming to God's will. By not remaining in his love . One can love God but to wrongly love him would mean that felling that just loving him is good enough. His will must be conformed to. In terms of being a monk they must adhere to the Rule of Saint Benedict. That is how a monk who has vowed has chosen to love God by following the Rule.

[7349yt]

I think to "love wrongly" is to love "for what I can get out of it" rather than to love "for the sake of the one I love". It's like saying "living wrongly" is to live in a way that does not promote my flourishing as a human being -- I still "live" but it's not a life worth living, and isn't really "life" in the true sense; just as loving selfishly is not really loving in the true sense. Paradox is very "Mertonian", and very Zen.

[TheEntropyTrap]

@belucky208 Merton answers your question in the first chapter of "No Man Is An Island."

[sylvia1808]

muito lindo. conheçam também a Música de URBANO MEDEIROS - Brasil !!!!

Professora Sylvia

[opalescentparrot]

@belucky208 God is not only love, He is the object of the love which He is. Our love is an image of God to the extent that its primary object is God. So, to love wrongly means to put something else in the place of God as the primary object of love.

[Jahexpress]

well said.

[madisonelectronic]

I'm OK, I only screw 6 days a week.

[onetailtest]

@belucky208

Example of loving wrongly: loving money to the exclusion of all else.

Another example: loving sex only for itself and to the exclusion of all else, including people.

You can think of more ways of loving wrongly.

[aarrueba]

His thoughts on love are like health. you can have good health or bad health, but not no health, unless you're dead. Same with spirituality and love, you can have it in a negative sense or a positive, but its there. Its part of our nature.

[ChannelingusIV]

"To always be with a woman and not to have intercourse with her is more difficult than to raise the dead" --- Bernard of Clairvaux (one of my fav quotes)

[buffuzo]

Ordo caritatis is the key point. The right order of love, he gets into this about 9:30. You'd need to hear the rest to get the entire point. Pick up some of Merton's writings and you'll soon understand the point.

[jhgosnell]

@belucky208 sometimes we don't love...when we don't, the energy goes from Love to something else. Maybe negativity is the best word. Ithink this is true anyway...blessings.

[lordgeneral9]

thank you for posting.

[chrisman737]

@belucky208, just because God is love does not automatically mean that we will love rightly. As we all know, some people love in a way that is very much in consort with God's will, and some love in a way that is not true love, but is a twisting or perversion of true love. In the latter case, the affections are moved toward things of this earth, money, power, or even terrorism. God is love, but we are not God, so we do not necessarily love rightly.

[uu99ttb7]

re "loving rightly"

I think that you might be over thinking this. I think Thomas Merton's intent is quite simple. Loving wrongly is just loving money, loving power, loving all manner of

negative things. Whereas loving rightly is just loving your friends, family, the world at large and God.

[forzasocultas]

@belucky208 I think the meaning of love here is what buddhists would call attachment. Man needs to attach to something, to love something. Now he can attach to a thing that brings happiness or to something that brings unhappiness..i think thats what he means.

[forzasocultas]

@belucky208 I think the meaning of love here is what buddhists would call attachment. Man needs to attach to something, to love something. Now he can attach to a thing that brings happiness or to something that berings unhappiness..i think thats what he means.

[brpeter1]

when we turn freedom of loving into a love of possession or idea is a way of loving wrong .God through his grace can change this but we must be open to conversion.

[xander7ful]

Thank you for this. I've never heard Merton speak before and wondered if he still had any trace of accent from living in the UK. Obviously not. His teaching sounds like a strange mix of Christian psychology with a bit of Hinduism mixed in: "God and the emotions and people are all one." He was clearly a very astute, animated, involved teacher though. What a privilege it would have been to sit in on one of those classes.

[psiquiatramarcelo]

Thomas Merton VIVE!!!!  Muito obrigado a quem postou esta pérola preciosa. Conheçam também a música de um filho espiritual de T. Merton chamado URBANO MEDEIROS (do Brasil). Linda e santa música!!!

abraços,

Dr. Marcelo, médico

[BillOByrneIII]

God is love. That means that God is the only one who can love perfectly and who is Himself the definition of love that is pure: self-giving, unconditional thought, feeling and action for the good of another. As people made in God's image, we have to love. The problem is that because we're fallen, our love is always an imperfect reflection of God's love, and therefore of God. So while it is right and good that we "love" -- our love is only analogous or similar to God's love in certain respects.

[BillOByrneIII]

Contemplative prayer puts the faithful believer on a path to be filled with God's love, so that s/he loves with the love that God is! Our sense of love is not god! And that's a love that is different that what we usually call love. Maturing as a person, growing spiritually, always involves a maturing understanding and embodiment of love, being able to live and act that is more and more consistent with the love that is God.

[abadjpyo]

well belucky its very simple and common sense the answer to your question: because YOUR concept of love is not always GODS concept of love, you killing someone can seem to you as love, it happens in some crazy people, ,kudos

[herodotus53]

I could listen to brother Thomas talk forever. It's a shame he didn't live longer.

[psychopomp33]

I'm reading The Seven Storey Mountain at the moment and I'm totally amazed by this guy... So glad I found this recording of him speaking here, thank you so much for sharing!

[chrisofcolombia]

Those who have never known inner silence think that a contemplative is (or "should" be) always silent. They observe a holy man like Merton speaking eloquently, and due to their false premises, think that his ability and willingness to speak belie a false spirituality. A godly and truly spiritual person is able to communicate the truth he discovers during seasons of silence. A fool criticises that which he can't understand. You fools: keep your mouth(s) shut please.

[earlymass]

Criticizing Thomas Merton.....He has a "big mouth..." ??? Are you going to tell us next that Mother Theresa had a big mouth? I pray for you.

[msharleyquinzel]

I'm doing a report on Thomas Merton, and I'm telling you I love this guy.

[sixscreen]

As always Thomas Merton has the insight and the direct approach all you have to do is listen.

[INRIsee]

Thank you very much for this! I am amazed that there are criticisms below! Cant anything be simply listened to without controversy?

[shysterlicious]

This man is truly a saint.

[msharleyquinzel]

absolutely

[cdphatty]

hes got a big mouth for a trappist

[Mushin001]

actually ... not only Thomas Merton... don't judge anyone..."for with whatsoever judgment ye mete, with that judgment too shall ye be judged"

[sixscreen]

He is compelled to share what he has come to know. He actually was ordered agaijnst his will to write.

[FatherOfThings]

I'd assume that I was the one confused. After all he was considered one of the most original and challenging minds of the last century. I'm just saying. Love is not a matter of semantics here. He is talking selfishness masked by what an unexamined life might call love.

[Fogartarian]

Thank you so much.  Is a recorded voice a relic? I do feel closer to this saint hearing his voice. Thank you, Journeys2008.

[soccerprojosh]

because we love through our tainted versions of what we think love is.

[lajollajoe]

Wow, I never heard Thomas Merton's voice. Never knew he was taped. Thanks for posting this! Much needed inspiration for this morning.

[JayWeik]

We are all in the monastery. Right now, right here. I used to listen to these tapes constantly in the 80's... Thanks for posting this!

[metslover67]

good old Thomas Merton

[druss56]

is this really merton's voice...where did you find these?

[catholicgreg]

Perhaps to love in the hope of some future grace from God...a new job, a new home, or even reaching the Gates of Heaven is "wrong love". Perhaps a "right" approach to love is to love God simply for God's sake...even if one lives in a cardboard box the rest of his/her life.

[Ovahheah]

One can love wrongly because one's aspiration toward God is often frustrated by self-interest, or misguided interest, or - worst of all - fear. E.g., the mother or father who refuses to allow his or her high school child to ever go out with friends for fear of what could happen. The parent may believe that he or she is loving the child, and in love trying to protect the child, but in fact the parent is acting in fear, not love.

Love can be wrong because creation is a blessed uncertainty.

[Journeys2008]

This is a good question. Keep in mind that these talks are geared at incoming novice monks, those who are trying to differentiate between the "world" and the monastic life. In that context, it makes sense. Do I agree? No, that's why I'm not a monk, though! :D

Very good question...and I got what you meant by the "stop judging" comment.

[ernestbuckley]

Gee whiz... what the heck is he talking about? Wonder there are so few saints... Here, let me sum this up in two words... stop judging.

[bayreuth79]

And you are judging the moment you judge that someone is judging!!!!

[ragpickerr]

got me thinking (:

[Grantwad]

Great post...love anything Merton!

Thanks!