Brigadier gerard－KingGeorgeVI & QueenElizabethDiamondStakes

[shaffi1]

@asupremeowl

Of course it is all down to a matter of opinion!

But with respect, At this moment in time Frankel hasn't even attempted 10f yet, so I would rather wait to see how the season unfolds before making any comparisons.

Regardless I will be astounded if Frankel races beyond 10f.

I adored the Brigadier and he will always be top horse in my humble opinion.

Frankel being a very close second.

[Brigust]

Although BG veered toward the rail there was always room for Parnell until he hung out into the centre of the course. As seen on the camera patrol film.

A French steward in the weighing room even agreed BG would keep the race in France where the rules are stricter.

The race was run within 3/10ths of a second of Mill Reef's record the year before where he was carrying a stone less. Plus overnight rain reduced the going to the soft side of good. Definitely not BG's favoured going.

[Brigust]

@Brigust

Add to this BG was drawn in stall 1 and had to race on the outside of the field the whole way. A move that today would be considered disasterous.

This was also BG's 6th race in 12 weeks and just 2 weeks after winning the Eclipse on heavy ground.

It was an excellent achievement where he beat Steel Pulse further than he beat him in the POW Stakes at RAscot and Riverman further than in the Champion Stks at Newmarket with the five classic winners in the race being the first five home.

[shaffi1]

@Brigust you are spot on

BG is still the benchmark as far as im concerned.

I adore Frankel but i doubt his connections would put him through such a programme the Brigadier faced in 1972.

[shaffi1]

Run Frankel in both the Eclipse and the KG?

My guess is, not a cat in hells chance!

[shaffi1]

I think you'll find the rules at the time WERE applied!

The best horse won! W Carson made a meal of snatching up Parnell and it's pretty obvious Parnell would not have won otherwise. With or without Mill Reef the fact is this brilliant miler came here and was good enough to win at a distance beyond the expectations of his breeding! Frankel on breeding, being by a Derby Winner would be

expected to get 12f a damned sight more than BG was.

Next year will reveal all.

Do you think Sir Henry wil

[TemerityApparel]

what a magnificent galloper

[shaffi1]

@pillian I would love to see Frankel come back next year and do what the Brigadier did as a four year old! However! the 10f of the Eclipse may well be within his range, but I would have serious doubts about him getting 12f. If he won the KG i would be ecstatic and he would rightfully be rated alongside the Brigadier ! and that is the biggest compliment to Frankel i could give.

[ComteLafon]

@shaffi1 truthfully, Shaffi, if Frankel was up against horses of this calibre, he'd probably beat them. This wasn't the greatest King George line-up; and if Mill Reef had made it to the race, I don't think BG would have bothered. Incidentally, if the Rules had been applied at the time, he wouldn't have this race in his c.v. and his reputation wouldn't be quite so mighty (unfairly!!). This isn't to diss the Brigadier, btw. But what's in the history books rarely tells the whole story.

[shaffi1]

I totally agree! He is still the benchmark!

As much as I adore Frankel , I can't imagine him coming back next year and winning an Eclipse and a King George ! Which shows just how good the Brigadier was ! And why he's the highest rated 4-y-o ever !

[Pillian]

@shaffi1 why would you not imagine frankel coming back and winning an eclipse and king george? who exactly is out there to beat him?

[ASupremeOwl]

@shaffi1 The Brigadier didn't really beat much here if you look back on the form of the race. The Brigadiers records are the stuff of legends but if I had to choose over the two then it would be Frankel. Weather Frankel stays a mile and half is another thing but I am of the believe he is the best miler We have seen even about the Brigadier. His stride and speed is uncomparable...

[ThefightingCelt]

Brigadier Gerard remains the highest rated British trained race horse since Timeform began in 1948, and rightly so. He was, quite simply, magnificent !

[ASupremeOwl]

What a special horse. Cleaned up the mile division as a 3 year and 4 year old and then stepped up to a 1m 2f and 1m 4f and won at that distance aswell. Quite remarkable this horse...

[tigerarmyrule]

I think 13 of his wins are in what are now Group 1 rated races at distances form 6 to 12 furlongs. Phenomenal stats and the questions about his staying are really only present because he was of the same generation as the superb middle distancer Mill Reef.

[krisspaddy]

Please read the posts from the bottom upwards.... Thanks.

And apologies for my spelling of the word 'George', on more than one occasion.

[krisspaddy]

Please the posts from the bottom upwards.... Thanks.

[krisspaddy]

Truly one of the greatest horses in the history of the turf, who could have gone on for more glory as a 5 year old, for sure.

[krisspaddy]

Had the ground been soft on that day - I am convinced BG would have been beaten. Had MR and BG met in The Eclipse, he may well have struggled again - and probably would have finished second too. However, had they met in the King Geaorge, that would have most certainly been the race of the century.

he was a tremendous horse to watch and had one of the most gentle temperaments of any thoroughbred I've evr seen. The crowd never got to him, he never sweated up before a race and loved applause.

[krisspaddy]

His tongue is hanging out and in the last furlong he really struggles to keep it going. The same happened in the Lockinge, where he only just past the second horse with about 50 yards to go. He simply hated the rain and soft ground. As to the question of whether he was a better horse than Mill Reef, he was when they met, there's no doubt about it. That was billed as one of the greatest duals of recent times between MR and My Swallow. As it turned out, The Brigadier stole the show.. Easily.

[krisspaddy]

In his last ever race (the Champion Stakes at Newmarket 1972) the gates were closed an hour before racing started. It was full to capacity. The first time ever on a non classic day. The cheer in the last two furlongs was like when he won the King Geaorge - and when Red Rum won his 3rd national (I was there too). As for the comments about his distance ability, I never doubted it. he was good over all of them. The one thing he hated was soft ground. There's footage on YT of him winning the Eclipse

[krisspaddy]

I saw BG win The Sussex and Goodwood Mile - I was also at Newmarket when he won the 2,000 and his 2 Champion Stakes's. Fortunately I didn't get to York for the B&H - to see him get beat. But the greatest comeback after defeat that I've ever seen was his last two races, where he, yet again - broke the course record at Ascot. I have very close connections to some of the very best - and was chatting to some friends of Joe Mercer shortly after the B&H and like others have said, he was ill.

[shaffi1]

The Hislop's were hoping that Vincent Obrien would send Roberto over to have another crack at the Brigadier in the Champion Stakes, If they had i very much doubt Roberto would prevailed. The Brigadier was at his majestic best at Newmarket that day, and the way he took off at the two furlong pole i doubt even Mill Reef would have caught him.

[147ard]

Sorry MR is rated 141 by timeform.

[shaffi1]

Zarakhast You may question the Brigadier's rating, howeverv watch the 1971 guineas vid, one of the two horses he leaves standing at the distance is not only a great horse, but is rated 142 by TF.

I could never imagine DB beating Mill Reef by three lengths over any distance.

The Brigadier was as joe mercer described him "a machine"!

Very little video footage exists but i will try to upload his final race the 1972 Champion Stakes, he practically takes off over two furlongs out.

[147ard]

@shaffi1 MR is rated 142 overall, but his 2000 guineas performance is not. MR was good at a mile but not great, DB would beat MR at a mile due to much better finishing speed. Regards

[ThefightingCelt]

Only when the blinkers are discarded can one see things more clearly. Brigadier Gerard would have beaten any horse over a mile. Don't forget that he was unbeaten at that distance, and that one and half mile was way out his comfort zone. He was all about speed and courage. He made the great Mill Reef look pedestrian in the 2,000 guineas. That is how good The Brigadier was. It's a pity that his other mile races aren't featured on here - then you'd appreciate how brilliant he really was.

[tigerarmyrule]

@ThefightingCelt it is true that the Biriadier made Mill Reef look ordinary at Newmarket but by the same token had a fit Mill Reef lined up for the '72 King George then the Brigadier woud not have won. Both superb animals.

[ThefightingCelt]

@tigerarmyrule I agree. Mill Reef's best distance was 12f. He would have outstayed Brigadier Gerard every time over that distance. However, I think had they met at the optimum distance ( 10f on good or firm ground - but not soft or heavy ), Brigadier Gerard would probably have emerged victorious. Soft ot heavy, Mill Reef every time.

[tigerarmyrule]

@ThefightingCelt It's arguable. I think I'm right in saying that Mill Reef's Eclipse was the fastest winning time of either horse's winning 10 furlong performances. I know that is not definitive but I think over 10 furlongs it would have been up for grabs. Both were absolutely superb 10 furlong animals. Its a great shame a 10 F showdown never happened.

[ThefightingCelt]

@tigerarmyrule Mill Reef ran only once over 10f - the ' 71 Eclipse. His time was faster than Brigadier Gerard's Eclipse time as the '72 Eclipse was run on heavy ground. Brigadier Gerard ran many times over 10f, at Ascot, Sandown and Newmarket. His only loss over an extended 10f, was against Roberto, who ran the best race of his life that day. Roberto blew hot and cold and most observers rightly concluded that his defeat of BG unexpected and that had they met again, BG would have triumphed.

[ComteLafon]

@ThefightingCelt Mill Reef won the Prix Ganay over 10f. I wouldn't set ANY store by ratings, btw - they reflect what the horse did on the racecourse which often depends on the opposition; and Mill Reef hadn't stopped improving when he broke his leg. For what it's worth, the Eclipse has generally favoured the miler (BG) over the 12 furlong horse, just the way Sandown is configured; equally, I suspect MR would have won the Champion Stakes. Just a hunch, nothing more.

[ThefightingCelt]

@ComteLafon I wouldn't say that the Eclipse necessarily favoured milers; indeed, although a handful of specilaist milers have won the race, it has by and large went to middle distance horses - moreover, 10 furlong animals. A moot ponit, but I think we do both agree that the race favours the speed horse over the stayer. As for Mill Reef, although he hacked up in the Ganay, his next race back in England ( prior to his leg break ) was less convincing - only just beating Homeric at Epsom.

[ComteLafon]

@ThefightingCelt Agreed. 

[Nautilus1972]

@ThefightingCelt Mill Reef's derby time was 6 seconds off Workforce. There are 30 or 40 Derby winners that would beat Mill Reef.

[ThefightingCelt]

@Nautilus1972 We will never know, but Mill Reef was one helluva racehorse.

[ASupremeOwl]

The greatest miler to ever grace a track, To step up to 1m4 and the going that day and win a field of that class takes something special but that was the Brigadier...

[zarakhast]

How good was Parnell ? It's a great race, btw, But why the question marks against Dancing Brave - and not against Brigadier Gerard ? Why the 144 rating for the latter and the 141 rating for the former ? I reckon Dancing Brave would have beaten BG - his acceleration was better than BG's. When Brigadier Gerard goes for home here he doesn't beat Parnell by much, just as DB doesn't beat Shardari by much in his KG. But I can't see that BG's acceleration was superior to DB's in the same race.

[zarakhast]

He looks a great horse but he doesn't beat Parnell by that much. It's quite similar to Dancing Brave's KG : Shardari gives DB a good battle but is never going to beat him. I can't see, at least from this race alone, why (according to Timeform ratings) BG was 1.5 lengths better than DB. That seems very dubious to me. I can't see how Brigadier Gerard would have beaten Dancing Brave by 1.5 lengths, unless it was over a mile - and even then I'm not sure.

[ThefightingCelt]

Brigadier Gerard is rightly proclaimed as the greatest ever British trained horse. Not only was the distance against The Brigadier this day but so was the rain sodden ground.

[Stanters1967]

Now this was a proper horse and like shaffi - if more had seen those races then...well...then they'd know

[shaffi1]

Quite simply the greatest! pity there isn't a vid of his Sussex stakes 1971 or QE11 1972, then racing fans could what this horse could really do!

RIP champ.

[shaffi1]

What the hell are some of these people on? Questioning the Brigs rating! Racing didn't start with DB, who was a great horse! and i use that word inthe true meaning. The Brig was and still is the benchmark as far as british trained horses are concerned! The horse hasn't been born yet that would take him at a mile, or a mile quater! He had it all devastating speed , stamina and class to win behond the expectations of his breeding.

In summer of 72 he had 3 GR1 races in little more than a month!

[shaffi1]

and even in defeat he smashes the track record. The KG was too far for him, and Hislop should have rested him longer. however! In th B&H Roberto got an inspired ride and was fortunate the Brig had a slight off day, some horses in Hern's yard were coughing and contrary to Herns biography, Joe Mercer states that stable head lad Buster Haslam told him after the race the Brig lowered his head and a fair amount of mucus came out! So it's possible BG was slightly off that day.

[jonnythewhitefoot]

Agreed,

[ComteLafon]

@shaffi1: couldn't agree more. Nothing comes close over 3 full seasons. And he's not exactly stopping after 12f, is he? And it's not like he nicked it coming from behind off a fast pace - he's right up there from the turn. The fact he's such a battler disguises his class. The only surprise is that the stewards didn't steal it from him, given the draconian rules about interference at the time. Presumably the Jockey Club were afraid of being lynched if they had.

[MrPapaBill]

Brigadier won the 4 races as a 2yr old, including the Middle Park Stakes.

He made his 3yr old debut in the 2,000 gns, beating the officially top rated 2 yr olds. Mill Reef and My Swallow.

He also won St James' Palace Stakes, Sussex Stakes, Goodwood mile, QEII and then Champion Stakes as a 3 yr old.

At four, he won the Lockinge, Westbury, Prince of Wales, Eclipse, King George, QEII (again) and Champion Stakes again.

Among those he defeated were Mill Reef, Steel Pulse and Riverman.

[zarakhast]

Fantastic horse, as far as I can tell just from this evidence - especially if it was far beyond his optimum trip. He looks bigger and more powerful than the other horses. I'll keep looking into it. Unfortunately, YouTube only has a certain number of his performances, including (unfortunately or fortunately) the defeat by Roberto. I'm very interested to know why he was given a rating of 144. You can see how powerful he was in this video but I need more to be convinced.

[zarakhast]

Commentator and horse obviously on first name terms ("The Brigadier" : how sickening is that ?) What's with all the hype about this horse ? He didn't beat Parnell (who the hell is Parnell ?) by much and he had to hamper him first. I'm not saying he wasn't as great as people say he was but if he was so great then why ? I can't see why he got a rating of 144. No way was he 1 1/2 lenghts better than Dancing Brave : DB would have murdered him, having the better acceleration. How was he so great ?

[147ard]

I agree, BG was really one paced, i think he's got a rating of 144 due to all the one paced wins.

[MrPapaBill]

You talk one load of shite !

[simon8748038]

At a mile Dancing Brave would not have beaten Brigadier Gerard. He was the best miler in history. This was his only attempt at a mile & a half and clearly his class won him the race. Dancing Brave would have beaten him at this distance. 10 furlongs would have been the distance to see them race against each other.

[december2364]

I totally agree. I was banging my head off the keyboard the other day after reading the comments on here about the Dancing Brave 2000 Guineas win and how BG could not live with the the speed and power of DB at a mile. As much as I'm a fan of DB and just can't see him getting within 2 lengths of BG at a mile - even on soft ground. IN MY OPINION, the horse has yet to be foaled that would beat BG over a mile. Timeform seem to agree.

[simon8748038]

@december2364

You are so right. Greatest miler that has (or will) ever be seen. He beat the great Mill Reef in the 2000 Guineas. That was the last time Mill Reef would ever lose. Dancing Brave was a great race horse but not in BG class !!!!!!!

[MrPapaBill]

Take your finger out your Dancing Brave arse for a second and learn a bit about the history of the turf before you try to score daft wee points.

Brigadier Gerard was a monster of a racehorse. You had to be around then to fully understand that the likes of him, Mill Reef and Nijinsky, were anything but hype,or overrated. Parnell (ridden by W. Carson ) was a stayer incidentally. On that day, the Brigadier had every ounce of his questionable stamina tested and still his class shone through.

[zarakhast]

I've absolutely no doubt that BG and MR were great horses, and I've admitted this elsewhere, but when you attempt to rubbish Dancing Brave what do you expect ? We're not going to change each other's minds so let's just accept it. You make categorical statements without adding the qualification "in my opinion". And then you call on some "expert's" opinion to back you up. As if anyone really can have the final word on such matters ! You can argue your case but you can't prove anything.

[zarakhast]

Also, (and I'm not saying that BG wasn't great) if Brigadier Gerard was not only a great miler but also a great 10f horse, then why did he HAVE to have "every ounce of his questionable stamina tested" ? Isn't part of being a GREAT horse being versatile ?

[zarakhast]

Apologies, 12 f.

[MrPapaBill]

Brigadier Gerard had so much speed over a mile that he was able to utilise his speed at 10f to equal effect. He was also a very tough and courageous horse. Dick Hern and John Hislop opted to run in the KG & QE in order to test him at that distance at 4 because he was considered much stronger and more able to handle it. He used every ounce of stamina to win that race. Joe Mercer said his class rather than his staying ability saw him through. He never raced at a mile and a half again.

[zarakhast]

I need to learn about his career more thoroughly. At the moment all I'm going on is a few videos and things that I've heard. The handicappers aren't mugs, I know that. But I also see with my own eyes and think for myself.

If BG had raced over 12f again he might have triumphed AGAIN. One of the problems with owners is that they don't want to risk a horse's reputation if it's already got so many Group One wins over a certain distances in the bag. Money, money, money ... A bit like boxers.

[frankschlanker]

were the 1st and 2nd stablemates?

[simon8748038]

No not stablemates

[zarakhast]

Nice win and yes he did win with authority. But the way Dancing Brave surged clear (before being pegged back) in the 1986 renewal was more exciting. These great horses will keep us arguing until the cows come home !

[jmdm1957]

Handicapper MR should have been then Shaffi,

[shaffi1]

Have you been on the Gin again dearie? cos your comments don't make a lot of sense!

[cmcgarth1O]

dancing brave, njinsky, mill reef, brigadier gerard,el gran senor, great names and great horses all before my time :( never see horses like that again. only been into racing maybe 3 years and been very lucky to see manduro,new approach and zarkava. zarkava may be up there with the great fillies like pebbles, oh so sharp and miesque but i doubt new approach is anywhere near they great colts.

[someboyplay]

these horses were truly great horses, but i think the greatest ever was dancing brave.

[millreef42]

MR beat a much better field then BG did.. if these two horses had met again over ant distance MR would have murder BG, no doubt about that..the horses that BG struggle to beat dahila dismiss then with easy in her KG

[shaffi1]

Utter nonesense! So you think Ortis and Acclimatization were better than Parnell and Riverman? I rather doubt it and so does Timeform for that matter!

Who's Dahila????

I take it you mean Dahlia?

Your views are weak and your spelling is worse!!!

[21shergar]

Do you think millreef42 is our old friend terbine13 tweaking your strings, shaffi?

[jmdm1957]

Shaffi, I think the big problem, for the GREAT, BG AND MR was that they both were at that time being compared to the Great Nijinsky,in my day i was so lucky to have actually seen 2 of the 3 running,what an honour.

[millreef42]

this was a weak field..no real champions in here..what are you guys talking about?/ this has to be one of the weakest KG fields of all times

[shaffi1]

More to the point , what are you talking about???

What did Mill Reef beat in his KG?

[jmdm1957]

ok shaffi mate you sound like floyd mayweather,who did MR beat he beat what was put up against him at the time he was 1 of 2 great 3 year olds who could have run but where was who?

[shaffi1]

This race is testimony tothe Brigadier's greatness. A champion miler winning a Gr 1 mile and half all age championship race.

How many champion milers have ever won at this distance let alone WIN a King George!

He was all out here and not surprisingly next time out having his third race in as little as 5 weeks all beyond a mile .

He was beaten, albeit by a Derby winner, receiving nearly a stone and having had six weeks to prepare!

Credit to the Brigadier! A true Great horse!

RIP my friend.

[jmdm1957]

Noboday will ever see a miler like BG again, no way, he was a diamond, and i dont think we will see another MR again, both of them were loved by the public,and for flat horses that takes some doing.

[shaffi1]

The habit of man to glorify the past and belittle the present, has persisted throughout the ages.

However! I feel it is nigh impossible to truly compare the merits of generations so far apart. Although i do think it possible to make coparisons of one year

With it's predecessor, given the fact that many horses stay in training. Galileo for me, was certainly a very good horse indeed, and his Derby win was one of the best of his decade for sure.

[spagsylee]

Wasn't around to see these greats gent's. In my time my favourite and in my opinion the greatest horse i have seen is galileo, how do u think he fits in, in the all time list

[ConcreteSok]

my grandad John Lesly Hislop rode brigadier Gerard

[jmdm1957]

And he ran him into the ground.

[jmdm1957]

yeah and he overraced the big guy.

[december2364]

That's a fair enough comment. Parnell was better over a mile and 6 and 2 mile. Still, the Brigadier was running at a distance well over his best and an Irish Derby winner in Steel Pulse was well behind both of them.

[terbine13]

This is insane isn't it? A colt that 'toasted' speed merchants Mill Reef and My Swallow in the 2000 Guineas and who became arguably the greatest miler of all time, duffs up the likes of proven stayer Parnell and Irish Derby winner Steel Pulse over a mile and a half...and to put a frilly bonnet on that, was barely half a second outside Mill Reef's racetime the previous year!

[shaffi1]

It is ! however, the Brigadier paid dearly next time out, as we know! As a die hard BG fan i will always consider this race his bravest and also the cause of his downfall at York! purely because of the little time he had to recover from this race, which in retrospect i cannot believe the Hislop's were not more aware of, considering how carefully they mapped out his 3 year old campaign.

They should have rested him then returned for the QE11. God knows he deserved it!.

[terbine13]

Actually shaffi, I wonder if the reason the Brigadier took part in the B&H was because it was inaugerated for the purpose of a 10 furlong showdown between him and Mill Reef? I would question the decision to run the Brigadier at Ascot more than I would question his running at York...but had this Ascot run not happened we would have been robbed of one of the Brigadier's greatest races and of a memorable King George!

[shaffi1]

That's very true Terbs! but my guess (and i'm sure i'm right in saying so) is the Hislop's only ran BG in the King George in the absense of the great Mill Reef. I doubt they would have risked defeat by his greatest rival over a distance which favoured Mill Reef, consequently they would have rerouted the Brigadier! So turning up fresh at York may have re-written the history books.

[terbine13]

I think had Mill Reef run in the 1972 King George (and won in the absence of the Brigadier obviously!) he would have gone to York and got beaten by a fresh Brigadier and very possibly Roberto too. Had Mill Reef arrived fresh at York it would have been a whole different ball game.

[jmdm1957]

Very True.

[jmdm1957]

im a first timer,in all fairness Mill Reef cantered up and won as he wanted I cant really believe Parnell decent stayer as he was would have ever got that close to Mill Reef over that distance.

[shaffi1]

Most jockeys would have held the Brig up to the last furlong! and lost! but Joe knew his horse! once in front would dig deep and deeper still! Great ride from a great Jockey!

[terbine13]

upon further reflection, Joe Mercer rode an extremely well judged race here didn't he?..if he had held the Brigadier up and not used his speed to close up on Parnell at around the 5 furlong mark I don't think they would have caught Parnell from further back..Joe almost gave the Brigadier a 'breather' coming off the bend and pushed him on again in the straight..Yep Shaffi, one hell of a performance from the Brigadier, he had 'gears' as well as guts!!

[shaffi1]

Terbine! Lammtarra won the Derby in record time does that mean he was better than Mill Reef? obviously not ! December i'd just give up, how can you reason with someone who posted a comment stating Nijinsky struggled to win his King George!! Is that a biased statement or just an example of poor judgement?

[december2364]

Exactly Shaffi. Nijinsky's King George win was probably one of the most imperious flat race wins I've ever seen. No objective viewing of it could argue that. And in terms of opposition I personally think it was better than Reference Point's win in 87.

[terbine13]

Lammtarra might have been a better colt than Mill Reef but Timeform (and me) would need more than his Epsom Derby win to claim that..anyway back to the point, half right Shaffi, I am biased, poor judgement? I call believing that Nijinsky was so good is poor judgement...as eventually evidenced..so why is it then that timeform rate Mill Reef higher than such a wonder horse as Nijinsky do you think?

[shaffi1]

Anyone who knows anything about horses knows that Nijinsky was over the top by the time the Arc came, and in the Champion he had completely gone! Similar to Dancing Brave in his last show! His defeat had a detrimental effect on his rating by Timeform for sure. I wasn't suggesting Lammtarra was better than Mill Reef, quite the contrary actually! read my comment again please terbine.

[terbine13]

Gordon Bennett Shaffi! 'Anyone that knows anything about horses?' what you mean is that anyone who doesn't agree with you knows nothing about horses! perhaps Mr Engelhard, Mr O'Brien and Mr Piggott know nothing about horses either if they couldn't see their horse was over the top! I agree with the rest of your comments though!!

[shaffi1]

No terbine ! it wasn,t apparent Nijinsky wasn,t quite himself at home, but in the prelimeneries for the Arc he was mess and especially so in the Champion. In hindsight connections knew they had made a mistake.

Some horses often give an impression of well being, only to be found out on the racecourse that the horse has had enough, many examples are Sherger,Troy, Dancing Brave just to mention e few.

[terbine13]

good point..actually knowing Nijinsky's temperament it is astonishing that his trainer kept him 'on the boil' for as long as he did and yes Shaffi you hit the nail on the head about the preliminaries before the Arc, they didn't do anything for Nijinsky's chances..I remember watching it on tv

[jmdm1957]

because he was better

[terbine13]

Anyway, Sir Ivor was beaten in the Arc by Vaguely Noble, a great racehorse and sire of some champions..Nijinsky was beaten by, um, Sassafras, Sassafras? exactly..enough said, oh, and Mill Reef WON the Arc in record time

[shaffi1]

Well said pandamac! Nijinsky simply cantered home in the King George and beating a Derby winner in the process! The best all rounder ever! As for you nellie ! don't join the terbinettes! Sir Ivor was a cracker but not in the same league as Nijinsky and over a mile the Brigadier would have given him ten lengths start and still won.

[terbine13]

from the ridiculous to the sublime...

[terbine13]

Anybody got any clips of the Brigadier's other races?

[nellie1912]

you mean terbine where roberto trounces him in the inaugural juddmonte at york. Once agaain i say none of them would have beaten the great sir ivor brilliant over a mile brilliant in the derby and lets not forget that washington international win in hock deep going over a mile and a half. they r all legends of the turf but on his day none would tuch ivor.

[terbine13]

well, yes nellie that would be recompense for the clip of the Brigadier walloping my beloved Mill Reef in the Guineas!! but any of the Brigadier's other races would be good to see..or Sir Ivor's!

[terbine13]

OOPS!! 55whitedove is my missus user name..these comments are from myself 'terbine13' I forgot to log on...

[december2364]

I don't want to rake up what is an old argument again. Shaffi is a Brigadier supporter, Terbine would back Mill Reef every time and I would put forward Nijinsky. We're never likely to completely agree so lets just enjoy the videos of three great horses at the height of their powers.

[nellie1912]

Lads lads lads Nijinsky would have trounced the two of them any time any place. End of debate! Though none of them would have beaten the greastest of them all Sir Ivor

[55whitedove]

End of debate? you wish!! we're talking about the horse I loved, of course I am going to lose objectivity! Nijinsky as I have evidenced, would so not have trounced either Mill Reef or the Brigadier at a mile and a half and wouldn't have beaten the Brigadier over a mile with a headstart...

[MarkAntony]

The only times Nijinsky would have met The Brigadier (3 year olds) would have been the Guineas and the Champion. For sure I would back The Brigadier on both those occassions.

[simon8748038]

they could never have met in the guineas

[MrPapaBill]

They DID meet in the Guineas.

Brigadier Gerard beat Mill Reef three lenghts in the Newmarket classic.

BG is the best British trained horse ever. For an unbeaten crack miler to be equally effective over ten furlongs and then win a gruelling mile and a half group one race at Ascot, speaks volumes for the horse's outstanding ability.

And for idiots to say he was one paced just illustrates how little they actually know about him or indeed, horse racing in general.

17 wins from 18. Superb !

[simon8748038]

I was talking about BG and Nijinsky meeting in the guineas you idiot. BG is my fav horse of all time. He would not have beaten the greats over a 12 furlongs. A mile no one touches him and firm conditions he probably beats just about everyone at 10 furlongs.

[MrPapaBill]

simon, less of the idiot.

Prick.

I know. I saw him race many times. Make yourelf more clear.

[terbine13]

oh my word nellie, now you've complicated things by bringing Sir Ivor into it!! I need an Aspirin I feel a headache coming on...

[55whitedove]

december, my whole reason for living is to argue that Mill Reef was the best!! but what a dull world if we all agreed! It is fantastic that we can watch these clips and espouse on the merits of these great champions..

[pandamac323]

Whitedove..I also doubt the horse has yet to be bred that would have beaten Brigadier Gerard over a mile. But Mill Reef the best? A great horse sure, but at 10 or 12 furlongs you could have put Robert Morley on Nijinsky's back and he would have beaten Mill Reef going away. I'm sorry but Nijinsky was cut from a different cloth than Mill Reef. Mill Reef was a once in a generation - Nijinsky was a once in a lifetime!

[jmdm1957]

Elephant maybe but Mill Reef would have still beaten him.

[shaffi1]

I see your point! however, i think Parnell was a beaten horse and the result was not affected sufficiently to disqualify the Brigadier.

As for Nijinsky, You are spot on! but we should remember that it is to the Brigadier's credit that we are comparing a great miler with two of the best middle distance horses ever! I believe that at a mile he was incomparable, 10 furlongs his class shone through, but his King George win was beyond him and only his courage won him the day!

[terbine13]

Shaffi, stop encouraging december into thinking Nijinsky was that much superior to Mill Reef!! Wasn't Mill Reef's Eclipse time way faster than the 'Brigadier's best for a mile and a quarter? The 'Brigadier's King George win I would agree with you on!

[shaffi1]

was it really ? different courses wasn't it?

nothing wrong with Decembers judgement! Nijinsky cantered over previous years Derby winner Blakeney, in a manner that was almost humiliating! i doubt Ortis was as good as Blakeney !

[terbine13]

Dunno Shaffi, Ortis probably ran quicker than Ninjinsky at Ascot and still got beat 6 lengths..now that's a canter...not 2 lengths over an average Derby winner who finished umteenth in the Arc..

[shaffi1]

At a mile and a half granted Mill Reef was superior. A mile to ten furlongs and the Brigadier would always have beaten Mill Reef! not sure about 10 furlongs if it was soft though! but on good ground definately. The fact is they were both champions at their own distances.

The distance in between, well! it's simply a matter of opinion.

Thirty seven years later and still bloody argueing over these two!

[MarkAntony]

Indeed...And for sure flat racing has not seen their like since, two of the true greats foled in the same year.

[jmdm1957]

Oh by the way,there was another great colt as well or dont you like to mention it.

[l1nkway]

rock of gibraltar :)

[terbine13]

Brigadier Gerard didn't take on Mill Reef again after beating him in the 2000 Guineas,not even in the 10 furlong Eclipse Stakes that year (1971)which Mill Reef won in record time why? I believe the Brigadier was a more mature horse than Mill Reef in the spring of 1971 but by late summer Mill Reef had developed into a top class colt and would have beaten the Brigadier beyond a mile at that time.

[shaffi1]

Mill Reef had the benefit of a previous outing prior to the guineas and was a precocious two year old, and being American bred i think he was mature enough on Guineas day. Ian balding said himself "i didn't think any horse could beat Mill Reef over a mile!" and couldn't believe the result of the guineas!. When it was established that The Brigadier stayed further than a mile, there were ample opportunities for Mill Reef to redeem himself ! or at least attempt to!

[terbine13]

Mill Reef's race prior to the 2000 Guineas (The Greenham Stakes) didn't disadvantage the Brigadier as his owners and trainers believed he would run better 'fresh' I don't see how being a precocious two year old or American bred has much to do with Mill Reef being mature enough on Guineas day Shaffi! When it was established(?)that the Brigadier stayed further than a mile why didn't he take Mill Reef on in the Eclipse?

[shaffi1]

Most horses naturally mature throughout the course of a season, the Point being Mill Reef certainly wasn't backward, ran to form and was beaten soundly.

As for the Eclipse of 71, the Brigadier at that time had not raced beyond a mile, his first race beyond that distance was in the Champion Stakes LATER that year! In 72 the Brigadier had trained on! (not convinced Mill Reef did) six of his races that year were beyond a mile, prior to his tragic accident where was Mill Reef terbine?

[simon8748038]

BG did not take on MR that year because Dick Hern believed he was only a miler. He did not move up to 10 furlongs until his 10th race the champion stakes and no one knew if he would get that distance.

[shaffi1]

When you watch this race ! notice at the mile pole in the back straight how fast the Brigadier goes past everything to go second entering the straight. Joe Mercer said when he asked him to quicken he just went "ping".

You won't see much of this fella on video but my god could he quicken. I had the pleasure of visiting him at the Egerton stud in 1981. A True Great!

[jmdm1957]

Shaffi and who was his next door rival then,of cousrse it was the average MR.

[BE109]

The Brigadier was one of the greatest at 8 furlongs! He had a ton of class to be able to win at 10 furlongs!!!!!!!

[simon8748038]

Had no equal at a mile and few would have challenged him at 10 furlongs. Let us not forget that Parnell was a very under rated horse. Won 12 of 16 life time and got every bit of the 1 1/2 miles. People alse say his weakness was heavy going. Never beaten in heavy going says a lot. He had it all as a racehorse and must rank in the top 10 of all time.

[BillOne2]

I rememeber that era very well. Racing fans had divided allegiances. I was a Brigadier Gerard fan for sure. Over 8 and 10 furlongs, I firmly believe "The Brigadier" would always have had the measure of Mill Reef - but I also firmly believe (as does Joe Mercer, incidentally) that over a mile and half, Mill Reef would have emerged triumphant. Let's not forget, Mill Reef was undefeated over that distance.

[shaffi1]

We were definately spoilt in that era! Mill Reef was a class act and at 12 furlongs, i doubt The Brigadier would have beaten him. I was at York the day The Brigadier was beaten by Roberto (who i believe would have beaten Mill Reef that day also) and if ever a horse knew it had lost a race, i swear The Brigadier did that day I've never seen much video footage of his races. Do you have any idea's where they could be available?

[BE109]

The Great Ones always know when the lose, that is why they great.

[BillOne2]

Nijinsky (I believe) would have beaten the Brigadier over a mile and a half, but Brigadier Gerard had no equal over a mile, and he was as equally effective over 12 furlongs. Did you know that The Benson & Hedges Gold cup (in which Brigadier Gerard suffered his only defeat) was inaugurated in 1972 for the sole intention of a Brigadier/Mill Reef re-match, which never happened due to Mill Reef's injury.

[shaffi1]

what a race that would have been! however! i believe a re-match would have confirmed The Brigadier a superior horse. He routed Mill Reef in the guineas (going away) i might add ! Just a little food for thought ! if you compare both horses king george times ! The brigadier,s time was less than half a second slower with a stone more on his back! minus his weight for age of course. As for Nijinsky i totally agree ! he was awesome.

[december2364]

I agree totally. I think a re-match would just have confirmed the Brigadier's superiority over a mile and a mile and quarter. Over a mile and half however, I think Mill reef had the edge. As for Nijinsky, I think the Brigadier would have defeated him over the mile and probably the Mile and quarter. But Nijinsky would have routed both the Brigadier and Mill Reef over the Mile and half.

[terbine13]

the 'Brigadier beating Mill Reef over a mile and a quarter? nah...Nijinsky 'routing' Mill Reef over a mile and a half? hardly..Mill Reef's average time for his mile and a half races was nearly two seconds faster than Nijinsky's average for his..and Nijinsky's King George was slower than the 'Brigadier's by about three and a half seconds

[pandamac323]

Nijinsky's time in the King George might have been slower than Mill Reef or Brigadier Gerard but look at the style of the win. You almost had to watch it from behind the sofa, it was so scarey! Anyway, you just can't throw the times around like that - there are so many variables to take into account from year to year. Slight differences in going, early pace, quality of opposition etc.

[terbine13]

panda, I haven't 'thrown' times around I have worked out the average time for Mill Reef and Nijinsky's mile and a half races. You list going, early pace and quality of opposition (what are the 'etceteras'?) but you haven't expanded on these..however, there aren't many who would claim that Nijinsky faced better opposition than Mill Reef!

[terbine13]

You'd have to be behind the sofa because if you were on it you'd have fallen asleep! Scary? your denial of reality is what I find scary..the style of the win was of one very good horse beating some not quite so very good horses and fooling many of us into thinking he was invincible

[december2364]

Good God! Nijinsky defeated a field in the King George which included a Derby winner, Washington International winner, Coronation Cup winner, Italian Derby winner and French Oaks winner in a manner which has never been equaled to this day. He won a Derby in near record time and hardly came off the bridle. Chuck in an easy Gladness stakes, a facile Irish Derby win, a 2000 guineas and a St Leger and it's hardly surprising he was over the top by Arc day. Sassafras won the French Derby.

[terbine13]

good comments december and I have posted a comment elsewhere regarding Nijinsky's Epsom Derby which I believe was his most(only)impressive win. All that was over the top by Arc day was his reputation, you can't have it both ways- 'facile' wins and 'hardly coming off the bridle' contradict his being over the top by Arc day surely? ok, Sassafras won the French Derby, so did the Arc prove that the French Derby winner was better than the English Derby winner then?

[december2364]

Sassafras was rated an above average French Derby winner and not until Bering in 1986 was his rating surpassed. However take Stentino, who was thumped 3 and a half lengths by Nijinsky in the Derby - he won his next race in the Prix Lupin with Sassafras wallowing in his wake. A fully fit, unhampered Nijinsky would have thumped Sassafras. And as you said yourself, the St Leger is hardly the ideal prep race for the Arc. O'Brien overreached himself trying for both triple crown and Arc.

[terbine13]

an above average French Derby winner doesn't mean a lot when you look at the average..incidentally Mill Reef 'thumped' Stintino at Ascot by about half a mile I think..so what have we got so far? Nijinsky didn't win the Arc because: ringworm,not fit,over the top,hampered,Lester's riding,Sassafras being above average,overreaching by trainer,easy victories took it out of him,blah blah blah...what a double act you and Shaffi are!!

[jmdm1957]

OK so why was he retired then,we all know why, for stud, but with these 2 upstarts, doing it why would they let him run as a 4 year old, i think he would never have beaten any one of them, great horse as he was and still is in my mind.

[december2364]

I've said before on another thread that a 4 year-old Nijinsky, perhaps only taking in 4 G1 races with the Arc as the main target would have swept to glory. A fresh, lightly-raced Nijinsky would have brushed aside the challenge of Mill Reef and the Brigadier wherever they clashed. Still, I'm sure others will differ in their opinion.

[shaffi1]

I quite agree December. Had they not overcooked Nijinsky in 1970, and prepared him for a showdown with the best of 71, i feel Nijinsky could possibly have been rated the best ever!

[jmdm1957]

Shaffi im shocked after looking back over past comments that you under rate MR so much.

[shaffi1]

Quite the reverse jmdm1957! I rate MR as one of the best horses i ever saw. I think Nijinsky was the best all round gifted horse that ever ran, and my beloved BG was and still is the benchmark as far as the milers are concerned.

[charliepuff]

only one better than the brigadier! NIJINSKI

[shaffi1]

What a treat to see this amazing horse winning at the highest level over a distance beyond his best. Nothing would have lived with him over a mile, not even the great Nijinsky my friend!

[miger1]

Great to see this clip! Thanks1

Greatest miler of all time, but lucky to keep this race!

[simon8748038]

Parnell would not have beaten him in this race. i think the correct decision was made. but you are right, the greatest miler ever!

[december2364]

He was maybe a bit lucky , but I think Carson made a meal of pulling Parnell up and switching him. Mind you, I've seen horses disqualified for less.

[terbine13]

a bit lucky? Parnell nearly hit the Brigadier up the jacksie he was going that slow, Carson had to virtually stop his mount...still courageous effort on the Brigadier's part though all the same..