Mass killing deer (hunting) is extremely unnatural thus causes more deer births.

[arquangel]

"compensatory rebound effect"???!!!

tell me then.

WHY DIDNT THIS WORK WITH THE BUFFALO?

[DeliberateCruelty]

I don't know about buffalo biology but we do not how hunting effect the deer biology by compensatory. Plus with compensatory the hunting organization created food plots (more food for the remaining deer and good food source means twins and triplet birth PLUS they kill off deer natural predators to salvage the fawn to recruit for future hunting targets.

[lint23]

There aren't more deer because of hunting resulting in surplus birth. Are you kidding me??? There are more deer because of two reasons! With the transformation of land for agriculture their food sources have increased dramatically! Also the removal of their natural predators from the environment has caused a deer population spike. If we let the wolves/coyotes to reach a natural equilibium with the deer the deer population would drop.

[DeliberateCruelty]

@lint,

who is so insistent on killing deer's natural predators so they can protect their "fawn crops" and " fawn recruits?" for killing.?

[DeliberateCruelty]

You should keep it low population isn't that what we want? Of course not the hunters wants abundance of deer that is why they make sure the population are up year after year then blame the deer for HDC and deer vehicle accidents etc.

[nktank84]

Miller County has historically had deer populations at modest levels where antlerless permits were appropriate, but inclusion in the antlerless portion was not. Recent increases in the Miller County deer population now warrant its inclusion in the antlerless portion of the 2008 firearms deer season.

[DeliberateCruelty]

Why don't you call it "killing does" instead of the "antlerless crap" , I guess because killing does does not sound too good so they use the euphemistic word of "antlerless".

[nktank84]

Missouri's ANTLERLESS ONLY SEASON is from Nov, 25-Dec 6 and includes 73 counties( in tmost of those counties there is no limit on how many DOES hunters are allowed to KILL . There is also a special urban season to help curb population in those areas. Now you gonna tell me killing does causes populations to go up? It's a big conspiracy right?

[DeliberateCruelty]

If doe killing "reduce" deer population then why the problem year after year? We have abundance of deer right here even with hunting and bowhunters even come to the neighboring land and still every year the little fawns are born and the same problems continues. The only solution is deer birth control which the hunting community do not want.

[DeliberateCruelty]

Why do they not want deer birth control? check my 2 videos, one on fawn production and the other is "anatomy of a doe hunt", the non-hunting public will be in for a shocker (not the hunting public they already know).

[nktank84]

Yes it will always continue because deer like to breed and they're pretty good at it. It's not hard to keep the population at a steady level, but like birth control, it must be done every year. You think birth control won't have to be repeated every year? Birth control doesn't curb populations just prevents more expansion.

[DeliberateCruelty]

But we can see killing does not work because of the ecological principle called "compensatory rebound effect" that is why the states that are heavily hunted always have abundance of deer ( of course its also deliberately manipulated habitat to create more deer) and why heavily hunted states have the highest DVA's. Deer birth control is getting more advanced everyday and soon what you been doing (which was a joke) would be the thing of the past.

[nktank84]

How come my comments keep disapearing? You can't even beat a dumb redneck like me in a debate so you ignore me and remove my posts so people won't discredit you. You can't back up any statements you make. Maybe you should rethink your views? I'm not out to be an asshole. I have no goal to shove my sport in your face or to gross you out. I like every other hunter will quietly fade into the background if you will only give up your misguided views and leave us alone.

[DeliberateCruelty]

Your comment is not "disappearing" I just got here . You seems to think I think I sit around here all day waiting for you to comment so I can happily reply back but I am very busy saving animals lives and exposing the truth to the public about hunting. Saving lives is hard work, destroying lives like what you do is easy.

[nktank84]

The main thing these "evil trophy hunters" do is let immature bucks reach maturity. They let them reach the peak of physical strength and beauty. There's an overused misnomor that they shoot the strongest and leave the weakest. Antler size has nothing to do with physical strength of an animal. But they do let younger bucks live long enough to find out which deer are stronger and have better genes. The buck with the smaller spread could very well be the top dog breeding buck.

[DeliberateCruelty]

"peak of physical strength and beauty" only to kill the size of the antler. Who give a damn about that . What you all do to the animals is unnatural when you kill and breed again and again and again, even the does are slaughtered and their babys are 2 months old only to "recruite" fawns to become future trophy deer. A never ending vicious disgusting cycle to satisfy the the low life human waste who destroy life for nothing more then the size of antler or because its "fun" to kill.

[DeliberateCruelty]

Did you know the size of the deer , elk and other hunted animals are getting smaller? Not the antler size or the herd size but the body size because the wildlife serial killers wants the biggest and the baddest deer. Even certain breed of bears have gotten smaller.

[nktank84]

I'm sick of the focus on trophy hunting. Why don't we focus on the average Joe in the woods who makes up the majority but has minority spotlight because he can't afford all the fancy shit they sell on tv. The guy that goes hunting to get away from the sttress of the world we live in. The guy that wants to kill a big buck but usually shoots whatever walks by. The guy that has no 1,000 acre ranch full of food plots but has his secret honeyhole off in his little brushy holler

[DeliberateCruelty]

This is about recreational hunting and if you that "average joe" who kill for food only and nothing more then you would not be here with your BS. People who tries to defend themselves is because deep down inside know that recreational hunting is corruption and serve absolutely no purpose and should be abolished.

[nktank84]

BS? Where's the basis for your speculation? Videos on youtube?lol. I get mad and can't resist throwing in my 2 cents, stupidity just has that effect on me. I hunt because I love the outdoors, I kill because I love to eat wild meat, it's that simple. I don't have time to be a trophy hunter, I'm a migrant worker and always working during hunting season, so I inevitably just hunt 4-5 days and shoot whatever walks by. If it's brown it's down, thats how I roll!

[DeliberateCruelty]

To "enjoy" outdoors you do not have to kill unless your reasons are purely survival but to take a life because you "enjoy" it,  is what we are disgusted about.

[nktank84]

You automatically just assume that everybody should be like you and enjoy things exactly like you do, and anybody who says or does otherwise is wrong and horrible. Well guess what? This may come as a suprise to you but we live in a country where my hobbies and activities DO NOT have to be acceptable to you or anyone else. Everything I do is legal and acceptable to my peers. You don't like it? Well that's just tuff shit. Part of living in a free country is dealing with things that insult you.

[DeliberateCruelty]

Slavery was once legal too no matter how evil it was but it was finally abolished and same with killing a living sentient being for "sports".

[superwoofer2007]

the enjoyment comes from making a clean kill, not from the actual killing...

grab a rifle and join the hunt!

[DeliberateCruelty]

Judging from the very large list of hunting accidents , "clean kill" must be very rare.

[DeliberateCruelty]

It sure should be about "reduction" being that we so many deer vehicle accidents especially in heavily hunted states.

What are you "managing" this deer population for? Please explain.

[CSHawksFan]

It is not completely about reduction. It is about reducing it to a healthy population and maintaining that population. Hunting does not cause larger deer populations. Hunters just hunt where there are deer. What you are saying would be like saying it is hot outside in the summer because people eat ice cream. Like I already said farm country can sustain a HUGE population of deer if not managed. Northern michigan is hunted hard and is all timber. It holds about 5-7 deer per acre and less.

[DeliberateCruelty]

Rather then using lethal why not opt for deer birth control then knowing it works and it safe/

[CSHawksFan]

1. Dont you find it extremely unethical to put an animal on birth control. 2. Can you imagine the cost of it. 3. Hunting is provides revenue for many different state run things like parks and even roads. 4. I believe and know that hunting works and its safe. You think just because you think it is right it is. You dont even know how safe it is in the long term. These proteins could cause effects down the road they dont see today. Even if they are natural proteins. Even steroids are natural.

[DeliberateCruelty]

" Dont you find it extremely unethical to put an animal on birth control."

If it was you and someone said you are going to be hunted down and killed or you can choose birth control and live damn straight you pick the birth control so spare me your "unethical".

As far as the cost, what have the hunting public cost not only in human lives from deer vehicle accidents but billions of dollars spend to "restock" the deer for each killing season.

[nktank84]

Exactly what is the cost (per animal) to "restock" the deer for each killing season? Would you enlighten me?

[DeliberateCruelty]

This is from a "buck management" website.

"As hunters, we know how expensive its becoming to hunt white-tailed deer. Not only are the prices of guided hunts and hunting leases going up, but the price of raw land is rapidly rising, as well. To make matters worse, deer managers are being hit with the climbing costs of food plot seeds, supplemental feeds, and vehicle and tractor fuels."

[DeliberateCruelty]

We are not saying everyone uses food plots but we know that people who wants trophy deer etc are willing put money into food plots, supplement feeding etc. I am sure there are those who hunt to feed family but we are after the hunting organization (money, power and greed) that manipulated wildlife to create large deer herd size and antlered deer and lies to the public about overpopulation and deer vehicle accidents when they are the ones creating the abundance of deer for sports killing.

[nktank84]

Because it costs $1000 bucks a pop, do you realize what the cost would be country wide?Venison is the least cruel way to eat meat. Wild game is a sustainable source of meat without factory farms.

[DeliberateCruelty]

Jay Kirkpatrick and IC expert quotes

"The cost of the vaccine is $21/dose (we,

by law, must provide it at our cost of production, with no profit), the dart

costs about $1.50, and the bulk of the labor to do the darting is where the

real cost lies. Costs will vary from site to site, depending on who is doing

the work and what they are paid. If you want to pay someone $80,000 a year

to dart deer, the cost will be high; if you want to use trained volunteers

the cost is less; "

cont

[DeliberateCruelty]

"I actually can't say

what the costs would be in any given site because of these variables, but I

kept the books for the first two years of the Fire Island project and the

costs never exceeded $10,000. That included a two or three air fares from

Ohio and Montana to New York, and we treated about 150 deer. My math shows

that to come out to about $66/deer. I wonder who estimated the $1,000 per

deer."

[nktank84]

Ok hot rod, I'm not talkin about an island. My home state (Missouri) encompases 69,709 square miles. Needless to say your project is a drop of piss in a lake.Missouri hunters killed 300,000 deer last year at 66 dollars a deer that's about 19,800,000 dollars for birth control for ONE year. That's almost 20 million dollars! Who's gonna pay for that if hunters have quit buying hunting equipment and funding the conservation effort? We funnel billions of dollars a year to help the land ans wildlife.

[nktank84]

Missouri deer hunters harveste300,000 deer last year. So at $66 per deer that's about 19,800,000. That's a good bit over $10,000 isn't it.. MO covers almost 70,000 square miles. Who's gonna dart all these deer? You gonna cough up $20 million a year to birth control our deer? I didn't think so. What you will do is ignore me until I go away and then continue to spew your BS to people who are dumb enough to believe you. You will always ignore people like me because you are wrong and you know it.

[DeliberateCruelty]

I will be glad to reply back to you expect you have rewrite the comment without the use of the word "harvest" unless you are talking about potatoes.

[nktank84]

I'll change when you do. Every single shred of your "facts" are slanted and borderline propaganda. From taking things out of context to taking 2 sentences out of a paragraph to make it sound like you want it to. And you repeat that same BS over and over. "fawn crop". I'll start repeating doe only seasons held across states to curb populations. If they want more deer why do they have special seasons to KILL DOES ONLY? Why did MO start restricting buck harvest? To encourage hunters to KILL DOES.

[DeliberateCruelty]

I believe with all the manipulation and tampering with deer biology the deer population gets way out of hand and that is why they want the doe hunt but also did you know that less deer , more habitat creates more deer? Check my upload I have to run to another forum and then help a friend to fight and end the "hunters harassment laws" that allows hunters rights to invade people property and property owners do not even have rights to protect their own homes and be safe.

[DeliberateCruelty]

Hunters spends billions of dollars manipulating wildlife, and growing "fawn crops", having "fawn recruits" killing deer's natural predators to ensure abundance.

[nktank84]

Yep sure have. When virtually all game animals were wiped out by commercial hunters and the settlers a group of americans fought for legislation to protect and preserve those species. Who did that? Was it PETA, Greenpeace, maybe the Human Society? Sorry, those folks weren't even born. It was the evil Recreational Hunters. So nomatter what you say about hunters you can't deny that without hunters there would be no animals for you to save.

[DeliberateCruelty]

"Evil recreational hunters " created abundance of deer for killing purpose nothing to be impressed about producing beautiful animals spending billions of dollars so they can have the deer all to themselves to kill for sports and trophy.

[DeliberateCruelty]

"Two-shot PZP vaccination programs, sponsored by the HSUS, have been more than 90 percent successful at blocking pregnancies for one year in white-tailed deer and wild horses in other areas of the country. In addition to its proven effectiveness, the PZP vaccine can be delivered easily by darts, cannot pass into the food chain, does not affect normal mating behavior, shows no side effects and allows a return to fertility when no longer administered."

[DeliberateCruelty]

I bet you still eat food that comes from factory farm so don't tell you only "eat" the game animals.

[DeliberateCruelty]

If DNR has been "trying" to "reduce" deer population then why do we always see the word "production", "fawn crops", "provide', "kill predators" things to that nature that tell DNR are ensuring large deer herd for hunters to kill year after year.

[CSHawksFan]

You obviously think you know what you are talking about. But I have a question. Why ,if hunting is so unnatural and we were not made to eat meat, did humans gather meat for survival in early history? Ask any historian. Humans were hunters and gatherers of meat long before they learned the technique of growing plants to sustain a viable food source.

[DeliberateCruelty]

I never said hunting is not "natural" because we all have a desire to hunt like to "hunt" for great bargain, go house "hunting", "hunting" to look for easter eggs sure we love to hunting but its not "natural" to kill. What you all do is not "hunting" its sit in tree stand to kill. What you all do is to kill a living sentient for trophy and sports nothing to do with hunger or survival like man did at one time and some still do..its call instinct to survive.

[Downedworker]

D.C. you change your answers to what you think is best for whatever you are trying to say at the time. Man is, and for almost a million years has been, a hunter of meat bearing animals for food. Thats not going to change, but you might be able to get a politician to side with you. Care to wager on that individuals potential seat at election time?

[DeliberateCruelty]

Man hunted for survival and it was not about sports and fun. You continue to take the way man once hunted for pure survival (hunger) and of course clothing and defense and using it as an excuse to kill today for "sports".  YOu go to your "sportsman" store and purchase thousands of dollars with of killing equipment to satisfy your serial killing mind. Those who kill animals for self gratification are no different then those who kill humans for self gratification.

[CSHawksFan]

I know plenty of sportsmen that use hunting and fishing as there primary source of food. For many it is tough to make ends meet. It really helps when you can get nearly 200 pounds of meat for $30and an unlimited amount of fish for 25 Not to mention that venison is far better for you than beef. I do not know many hunters that have top of the line equipment. And I dont know anyone who has spent over a 1000 a year on hunting. At the most i have spent 100 a year with gas.

[DeliberateCruelty]

That is why billions of dollars are spent trying to produce large herd of deer for recreational purpose mainly the antlered deer. I heard that all these "keeping up" of deer herd and large antlered deer for little men to shoot each year is getting expensive. What happens when deer are deliberately populated for hunting is you end up with too many does that hunters do not want. That is why they have the "earn a buck" where you have to shoot does.

[CSHawksFan]

You should actually read into this stuff before you post. The movement the past 10 years has been towards a more balanced population which would then yield healthier deer a more active rut and also better antler genetics. It has been moving away from the fear of maybe not bringing home a buck every year and harvesting a couple nice does instead. You have assumed that all hunters Fall into some stereotype that only represents a few. Check your facts.

[DeliberateCruelty]

Most of my "visit" is to the hunting forums or State fish and wildlife websites I go to and get information then I go back to the article written by ARA (not peta) but others I can see how right they were and it all connects .

[DeliberateCruelty]

Now if its about food their interest would be shooting does not bucks. Hunting is a business where they make money off the tags that hunters buy and the hunters wants to be able to kill the buck deer that is why so much time and money are spend manipulating habitat, burning, clear cutting, putting food plots, growing fawns like they were crops, shooting predators, getting "fawn recrutes" .

[CSHawksFan]

Your assumption is that all hunters are trophy hunters. This is not true. What you are seeing is a small section of hunters. Especially since the principles of Quality deer management is based on a 50/50 male female population. A few of the things that you mentioned as manipulating nature are actually very natural things that have been prevented by people. Such as burning and clear cutting. These are both natural processes that are curtailed to save houses and other infrastructure.

[DeliberateCruelty]

Manipulating is to benefit the hunters and stock the land with big antlered deer and use the land as a killing field. It sad being a wildlife watcher that those buck deer that you come to love with will be killed for the rack and then replaced with another one. Just knowing it makes me sick to my stomach and its what the public has to really learned what "deer management" or "conservation" with the use of killing is really about. A SHAM

[DeliberateCruelty]

"How Killing Female Deer at the Watchung Reservation Increased Birth Rates and Reproduction"

The Analogy of a Doe hunt is on my profile information.

[DeliberateCruelty]

Killing does does not work, they get desperate because more wants the buck not the does so they have the "earn a buck" where one kill the doe but from what I read hunters do not want to kill the doe to "buy a buck". Then what? when hunting org manipulates habitat to create large deer herd in hope of more antlered buck or have "fawn recruites" you will also have too many does, and he does are who suffers and their young babies.

[DeliberateCruelty]

The cost must be in the billion for the hunting industry to create large deer herds and especially the antlered buck and if buck deer was not in demand they would not be going thru all this would they?

[CSHawksFan]

I also hear that it is getting really expensive for PETA and the HSUS in the hopeless fight to end hunting. Its going to be quite hard when PETA loses the tax exempt status. Why do you worry about what people spend on hunting anyways. It is one of the few industries in which most of the revenue stays within the country. If your going to worry about anything it should be the billions spent on porn. Or the Billions that is spent on illegal drugs that fuels conflicts around the world and terrorist.

[DeliberateCruelty]

PETA is your people for they too kill animals and claim to be "saving" animals although theirs do not involve pain and suffering. True ARA do not resort to killing animals and true conservation do not either.

No HSUS here either. The money spend of creating large deer herd to be killed for sports are also costing human lives from Deer vehicle accidents and that is where its important too. My son and I too drives in a heavily hunted state of NJ so it is of my concern.

[DeliberateCruelty]

Then hunters spends thousands of dollars to eliminate human odor, buying deer baits, lures, fake deer anything you can do get the big buck to come to you and they use supplement in hope that antler of deer will get bigger and better to kill for trophy and for deer production on TOP of the food crop that hunting organization already provides. Certain animal like pheasants and even fish I can believe for food but not deer that are mainly used for trophy hunting.

[CSHawksFan]

Just for your information pheasants are not a natural part of the North American Ecosystem. Deer are not mainly used for trophy hunting. I do not know where you get this from. Yeah it is great to shoot a deer with large antlers and its exciting but it is far more exciting to shoot a large mature deer regardless of a large rack or no rack at all.

[DeliberateCruelty]

Of course (*roll eyes*) that is why there are all kind of website about how to get that trophy deer and all the little doodads and gadgets you can buy to lure the deer to stand so you can kill.

[CSHawksFan]

Yes I have said it is great to shoot a big buck and everyone would like to do that once in there life but dont think that means that everyone is just trying to go out and shoot big bucks it is more than that. And in the natural way of things predators use there natural advantage to beat the preys. We have the advantage of intellegence and use it to defeat there smell, sight, and hearing.

[DeliberateCruelty]

What in the world do you get out of destroying an innocent sentient life for the size of the antler ? This is what puzzles us because that would be akin to a serial killers who kill their victism and save their body parts.

I can see hunting for shed antler and you are actually hunting unlike when you all sit on your tree stand waiting for the animals to come to you with bait and lure. Plus  you do not end a life of a living creature with shed antler for the animals are still alive.

[CSHawksFan]

Why is sitting in a tree stand not hunting? It takes a crap load of patience to sit still a lot of work to keep yourself sent free and you have to know what you are doing when you set up a stand. Here in michigan where I live and hunt you cant feed deer so you have to know the animals habits. They also have management hunts in michigan to control the population.

[DeliberateCruelty]

Why if its about "reduction" of deer they always talk about producing deer herd size and from what I read sounds like lots of money involved manipulating deer habitat, killing buck who did not measure up in antler size to so they have bigger antlered deer to kill for future

"Thus, late fall up to early winter is very important for deer herd managers to impact and influence fawn production, so make sure the plant communities on your property is properly managed deer habitat. "

[DeliberateCruelty]

They grow fawn like they were crops and so much land they burn, I wonder how many wildlife they displace and destroy while setting the vegetation of fire so they can create more food that deer and other game animal can eat, grow and produce. So those money hunter talk about that they put into land is to create more land to kill on and more deer and other game animals to kill.

[CSHawksFan]

Burning is a natural thing. People stop this most of the time. Most wildlife fires are caused naturally and we put them out. Some trees require fire to produce seeds. Alot of the CONTROLLED burns are well supervised and are very beneficial to all wildlife.

[DeliberateCruelty]

Burning is not a "natural" thing if your intention is to create large deer herd to kill for trophy and sport hunting.

[CSHawksFan]

Burning is a very natural thing. Almost a third of michigans forest burned down at one time. That was a long time ago but that just shows that it happens.

[DeliberateCruelty]

Burning forests for the sake of deer herd size and to create trophy deer and build lands to use as killing field is far from "natural".

[DeliberateCruelty]

. In the forest you are not hunting like the real predators do, you sit in the tree stand with all the accessories that you bought waiting for the deer to come to you, then you kill. That is no hunting that is wait and kill. .

[DeliberateCruelty]

Human did what they needed to survive, man has eaten all strange stuff when needed to survive even another human body like in the Andes. Early man though was a nut and seed eater and man did not really started eating meat until 800,000 years ago. Human learned to kill animals by watching other animals the plants did not needed to be planted to consume. Man started to kill because plant source became scarce and they had to eat meat or die .

[CSHawksFan]

I also talked to a deer biologist when I wrote a paper on chronic wasting disease for my college writing class They talked about the rebound theory and noted that it was not a plausible concept. They also mentioned that the DECREASE in HUNTERS has led to an INCREASE in DEER I am sure you are taking the insurance companies numbers out of context because I know for a fact that they lobbied at the state level very strongly for an early doe season and against the bait that went into effect last year

[DeliberateCruelty]

Your deer "biologist" is there to create more deer for recreational purpose and to me its sounds creepy how much time and money spend on creating large antlered deer and large deer herd for "sports' killing.

YOu are all so sick and disgusting and the lies are never ending.

[beerkat88]

hunters do not care about imbalancing nature, causing car wrecks, or anything else. they just enjoy killing. i think all hunters should be forced to undergo psychiatric evaluations, to determine their degree of psychosis. if they score too high, they should not be allowed to own guns.

[Downedworker]

Now, that explains why many of earths creatures' have neared extinction. I.E.--Whooping Cranes. I was always mistakenly advised that it was due to over hunting. I wonder where they got the birth control, and how they managed to administer it to almost all the birds. If we can figure out how they did it, it may help us to figure out how to catch all the deer. Does this sound correct to you?

[DeliberateCruelty]

Deer are the MOST hunted animal in American in fact in many countries but America is whitetails they love. The huge pointers the beauty that is created by God and I believe is the animals most cherished by God. Hunters love them for trophies and the fact that these animals are most similar to humans. Some hunters use them in place of human victims to torture and to watch it suffer. (I am not the only one that sees this). DNR always make sure deer are in abundance to kill for "sports"

[Downedworker]

Whitetail deer are the animal most similar to humans??? Have you been drinking D.C.? Get a grip. Call one of your buddies from the meeting. That probably won't even be accepted by the most anti panty waste out there.

[DeliberateCruelty]

Did you know that deer can be hunted to extinction from the wildlife disease epidemic that hunting can worsen , There is an article link on video information and they even mention "compensatory rebound".

[DeliberateCruelty]

"The effect can be so dramatic that in some cases hunting can increase not only the proportion of infections and deaths, but also the absolute numbers. For example, their model shows that in the case of swine fever, a highly infectious disease threatening boars and pigs in Europe, hunting can increase the number of infected individuals by twenty five percent."

Hunting is not a normal part of wildlife plain and simple and it can have many drastic effect.