DL&W Steam Locomotives over the Lackawanna-Delaware River Viaduct

[SCL7500]

Nice footage you have. I like those DL&W 4-8-4's and Hudsons.

[3bar]

Is that the Paulinskill Viaduct at 1:34?

[jwramc]

@3bar From 0:36-1:37 it's all Paulinskill. The rest is all Delaware River Viaduct.

[southern4501isawesom]

nothing better then a steamer and fun fact for deloreanman14 they went faster then 90 on some passenger freight some times. hell look at n&w 611 she went 115 until a scared engineer closed the throttle. ;)

[lj1941]

I live less than 2 miles from where these clips were taken in Portland. My sister lives in Slateford about half-way between the viaduct and Slateford junction. The tower for Slateford junction is still standing just north of the concrete bridge coming out of Slateford.It is however obscured by vegatation.

[hrvideo]

You guys do know that you can buy the DVD with this and much more steam action, don't you? This is from Glory Machines Vol. 1 from Herron Rail Video.

[MrPeanuts1945]

Can't stop either. On a day in Feb 1998 I stood on the same spot where years before the person who filmed these clips stood. There was snow on the ground the day I was there and the trees were leafless so the road bed leading up to the west end of the Delaware River Viaduct was clearly visible through branches. I tried to imagine the DL&W steam engines racing up grade towards the bridge. I'm so grateful for the person who some 70+ yrs ago waited in the cold to film what I tried to imagine.

[lj1941]

can't stop watching this clip. It was made before I was born and I am amazed at the speeds these trains carry through Slateford!~The trees have grown up so much in the 71 years since these clips were taken that today,even if trains were running across the "Cutoff" which they aren't these clips would not be possible. Great nostalgia!

[MrPeanuts1945]

All the 4-8-4 1500 series DL&W passenger steam engines had their air pumps moved from the left side of the engine to the front during a rebuild in 1940 which installed box pox main drivers to correct a vibration problem. The very first engine shown in this video is a 1500 and the air pumps are still on the left side of the engine. The second engine shown is 4-6-4 built in 1937 so this film was made between 1937 and 1940.

[dorfantiques]

Now, as to the speed of the trains. Maximum speed on the DL&W between Dover and Slateford Jct. was 75 mph as per Emp. TT. However, due to the curve at the west end of the Delaware River Viaduct, trains were restricted to 55 mph in both directions at this point.

[dorfantiques]

The year? No later than 1942, because the New York, Susquehanna & Western RR bridge over Stoney Brook can still be seen in the background on the Jersey side. The S&W track between Stroudsburg and Warrington, NJ (Knowlton Twp.) was taken up in 1942 for the wartime steel scrap drive.

[hrvideo]

Deloreanman is correct about the film speed. The original was at 18 fps but the Rank transfer we did (in 1984) was at 24 fps. The reason was that back then we had no video editing equipment and all the editing was done at 24 fps on film equipment. The audio was on three separate synchronized 1/2 inch tapes. One had the music, one had the sound FX and one had the narration. Re-mastering today would require all new audio and narration, not feasible given the show's age. -Jim Herron

[MrPeanuts1945]

More techno-babble trying to explain the seemingly impossible churning speed of the DL&W steam engines running gear shown in these clips. As a young boy I saw NYC Hudson steam engines going by at speed which all looked pretty much the same in person as these DL&W engines shown here, doing at least 70 mph. I guess few remain alive today who actually witnessed what a steam engine's running gear looks like at 70 mph or faster. It's loud, exciting, and exactly as shown in these clips.

[PRR5406]

Regarding speed of footage; In the day, most cameras were spring wound, whereas in playback, it's all electric. Classic footage.

[MrPeanuts1945]

To: railfreek, the steam engine you're referring to "coming towards us on the Paulins Kill Viaduct" isn't a Pacific, but one of five Hudson type 4-6-4's built by ALCO for the DL&W in 1937. They had 80" drivers more than capable of hitting the 70mph speed limit of the Jersey Cut Off, and much higher if the train was running late. The same 4-6-4 type is the second engine shown in the video approaching the Delaware River Viaduct sometime between 1937 and 1940; all 5 were scrapped in 1951 & 1952.

[railfreek]

I had no idea the Lackawanna elevated the rail on the cutoff so they could get higher speeds out of the turns. This video is amazing. It's so overgrown now, and in these videos the cutoff is pristine. I love the shot of the Pacific coming towards us on the Paulins Kill Viaduct. The syncronized sound is perfect in this scene. Thanks

[fiddlerpin]

@railfreek I know what you mean about overgrown. I have mountain biked the whole thing from Roseville tunnel to the Delaware bridge! This is a great piece of film to Heritage the great Lackawanna Rail Road.

[jwramc]

Giants Stadium has long been rumored to have the body of Jimmy Hoffa buried...either under one of the goal posts or the 50 yard line...depends on who is telling the story. Oh...and if you watch the movie "Turk 182", Giants Stadium is apparently located *IN* New York City, not East Rutherford, NJ. Of course, most folks think the Statue of Liberty is in New York, too...and she isn't. :)

[Zillion43]

@jwramc WHOA, really, thats scary, next time I go see the Giants play I'll remeber to bring my crusifix and my little carry on bible, just in case his ghost pops out!

[Zillion43]

@jwramc WHOA, really, thats scary, next time I go see the Giants play I'll remeber to bring my crusifix and my little carry on bible, just in case his ghost pops out! and yes the staute of Liberty is New Jersey's property.

[MrPeanuts1945]

In 1998 I found myself standing at the exact spot where the person filmed the first two steam engines in this video, checking out the Delaware Viaduct and trying to envision the handsome DL&W engines running on such well engineered road bed and grade. I'm grateful for the person who stood in that spot some 60 years earlier filming these scenes for me to see now. Thank you, dcoursey82 for sharing.

[jwramc]

@ 0:35 is the Paulinskill Viaduct (the Delaware Viaduct is 3 miles to west). Cameraman is in a field just east of Rt 94, looking east, north, then west as the train passes. The sun is behind the cameraman in the southern sky, as it should be. The first culvert-tunnel it passes over is where Route 94 passes & the next is a never-used rail tunnel (now paved-through & part of a park). The PKV is all straight, the DRV is curved on its west end (see first two trains).

[Zillion43]

Also I wanna know if this is true, I heard that a long time ago when the DL&W was building the viaduct that a few construction workers accidently fell into the bridge when the crews were pouring the concrete, and that they drowned and that the construction crews couldn't help the men who died. I read about this on Google/wikipedia and it said that the bodies of the workers are to this day still preserved and incased bridge. But I want to know if it's a myth or if it's true.

[jwramc]

@Zillion43 Just about ever major structure ever built has such a myth attached to it. Hoover Dam, Giants Stadium...just about every bridge ever built. If nobody can show you a news article from the era that proves it (names, dates, etc), I just assume it's a ghost story (as in completely false).

[Zillion43]

@jwramc Giants Stadium??? has a myth??

[Gunfighter1b]

@jwramc Men have fallen into concrete and died, but they always get the body out. A decomposing human body would destroy the concrete and it would never set. It is a myth that just refuses to die.

[manidig]

@Zillion43 You have the right legend but the wrong DL&W viaduct. The story about a man falling into the concrete happened on the Tunkhannock Viaduct in Nicholson, PA (which is three times longer than this one). I have not researched it myself, but a guide on a Steamtown Excursion I rode over it says it is not true.

[Zillion43]

@manidig Well than again, u might not know, accidents always happen in life, but I can never imagine drowing in concrete, may God forgive them R.I.P

[Zillion43]

The old days were really glory days! it sucks that their never coming back. Just hope this line can be used once again.

[ronholog]

This is older - hand held - footage from about the 1950's. These cameras shot 16mm, but ran at a nominal 16 frames per sec so that you could get more than 3 minutes on a film spool.

Therefore - when played back at 24 fps you get a 1/3 factor speed-up.

BTW - the slow crank on the early motion picutres was used to get 'more action' in western scenes like fights or chases.

Enjoy!

If you grab a download and reduce the frame rate to 16 you can see it closer to real time.

[MrPeanuts1945]

@ronholog - According to Taber's The Delaware Lackawanna & Western Railroad in the Twentieth Century, diesels replaced all of the steam engines pictured in this movie clip in 1946 & 47. These engines were too large for anything but main line service and sat in round houses the remaining years of their existence with many years of service life left in them until being unceremoniously scrapped in 1949, with the exception of the 4-6-4 1150's that were used into the early 1950's in commuter runs.

[TheHAMMER77777]

WHEN WAS THIS PICTURE TAKEN?

[bjworters]

ok if you get this comment email me bjworters@aol.com because i would like to talk to you. that is the bridge before rt 80 went underneath it. what about the bridge about 5 miles before it?

[NYLifeInNJ]

If only they would electrify the line in the future and put up those classic red DL&W-styled catenary poles for express service to NYC over using Dual-Modes...

[sgprailfan]

I can't get enough of this, I passed by this bridge, well under it, and its amazing what once was there, I wish you had more of this footage.

If I was extremely wealthy... you would see this all again.

[intercityrailpal]

@HaloCE14 The problem with this line is the state line. Which is on the east end of the viaduct. NJ transit is not set up to do business in Pennsylvania. The're even going to build their own station under 34th st in NY to isolate their operation there. (With federal money) Crossing the state lines is Amtrak's job.

[railfreek]

excellent video!

[DL2045]

was some o filmed on the Cut-Off?

[intercityrailpal]

@DL2045 This is the far west end of the NJ cut off.

[4202EJW]

Great video! Do you know when it was made?

[xxxDeath9572xxx]

That shot from on the bridge, was TOO CLOSE. Excellent Footage!

[deloreanman14]

Is this footage sped up at all? The drivers on the locomotives in some of these clips are moving at pretty incredible speeds; I would bet 90-100 mph.

[dcoursey82]

Yeah I think so...alot of old vintage footage does this. Why? I don't know...but it's not sped up by that much. If it looks like they're hittin 90, then they're actually probably around 80...still very fast.

[deloreanman14]

I'm not sure...the reason I'm unsure is that the movement of the steam out of the stack and the cars seems very natural, as does the movement of the camera. Usually when footage is sped up, it takes on an unnatural feel. The more I watch this the more I believe it is real-time and if it is sped up, it's not by much at all. Also, some research revealed speeds of 100+ mph on the Cutoff were not uncommon when passenger trains needed to make up time.

[intercityrailpal]

@dcoursey82 On the Lackawanna it depended on if they were late. Just about any speed was OK if you were late. Also remember the cut off was a super railroad a great place to make up time. One time I was on the Phoebe Snow. We were late and the engineers boss kicked him out of the seat! We went over crossings so fast the gates went down behind the train! Down Mt. Pocono!

[MrPeanuts1945]

@dcoursey82 - These movie shots were filmed sometime between 1937 and 1940, because the first engine shown is a 1500 4-8-4 when it still had the original alligator heads and the air pumps were still attached to the left side of the boiler over the drivers. In 1940 the alligator heads were replaced by Laird cross heads and the air pumps were moved to the front of the engine. The second engine shown is a 1150 4-6-4 which first arrived new from ALCO's Schenectady plant on the DL&W in 1937.

[MrPeanuts1945]

@dcoursey82 - These movie shots were filmed sometime between 1937 and 1940, because the first engine shown is a 1500 4-8-4 when it still had the original alligator heads and the air pumps were still attached to the left side of the boiler over the drivers. In 1940 the alligator heads were replaced by Laird cross heads and the air pumps were moved to the front of these engines. The second engine shown is a 1150 4-6-4 which first arrived new from ALCO's Schenectady plant on the DL&W in 1937.

[manidig]

@dcoursey82 Silent movie footage was shot at 24 frames per second, and it was probably shot that way. Portable field cameras often shot at the silent speed to save film. When sound came in 30 frames per second became the standard. This is probably played back at the faster speed. Too bad we can't see the semaphore move. That would help tell if it's been sped up.

[MrPeanuts1945]

@manidig This can be debated without resolution since it can't be proved. It's all speculation. Steam excursions today typically don't run at the70 mph speed limit the DL&W had on the Jersey-Cut-Off so people see the churing running gear on these engines in this video and don't realize that, yes, that's the way it was for main line passenger steam engines on 70 mph (and higher, if the train was late) road beds. The camera was correct and didn't speed up the action. Steam was exciting & loud.

[sha1om]

@dcoursey82 16mm silent film ran at 16 frames per second; sound film runs at 24 fps. Projectors of that time period had a sound/silent control to change the speeds. Modern projectors designed for only sound films might not have this control, so silent films will run at 1-1/2 times their intended speed on these machines, and a train at 60mph will look like 90. (Note that in the clips with source audio, the train isn't going quite as fast...)

[MrPeanuts1945]

@sha1om "Note: that in the clips with source audio, the train isn't going quite as fast..." because it's traveling upgrade. From Port Morris Junction to the Water Gap the entire 28.5 miles were almost entirely built on a descending grade reaching a maximum of .6%, and the curves were all designed for 70 mph speeds. The 'source audio' engines are all headed upgrade towards Port Morris Junction. All the other engines are headed downgrade towards the Gap (Note their stack smoke laying lower).

[MrPeanuts1945]

@deloreanman14 - According to Thomas Townsend Taber's two volume book set titled: The Delaware Lackawanna & Western in the Twentieth Century the Delaware River concrete viaduct was the start of a 28.5 mile straight away that ended in Port Morris Junction. The book states that the DL&W speed limit on the Jersey-Cut-Off was 70mph unless a train was late and needed to make up time. One of the engines pictured was the 4-6-4 type 1150 series with 80 inch drivers easily capable of 100mph or more.

[paullubliner]

@deloreanman14 This was shot at 16FPS but transferred o tape at 24 FPS with a " 3-2 Pull-Down" to sync with the 60 Hertz AC current. It really should be redone through a Rank Cintel with a "wet gate."

[Espee9180]

Excellent video of the cut-off when it was up and running.