SERMON: Sola Fide (Justification by Faith Alone)

[fulcrumpoint]

Thank you for this teaching.

[mysteriumaenigma]

We need to throw away the bible.

All we need is to have faith in Jesus and we will be saved inspite of doing all the nasty sins.

So, we can throw out bible, do nasty sins and we will still be saved. We just need to cry to Jesus once saying, "Jesus I have faith in you, I am a sinner."

Once saved is always saved as Protestants say :)

[ChulaKirby]

@mysteriumaenigma Have you not ever read Martin Luther's where he said "No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day." It sounds like you understand the doctrine of Sola Fida. Surely we can throw our Bibles away if murder doesn't matter. Just believe.

[mysteriumaenigma]

Martin Luther: Sin Boldly — No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day

[iotaunam1]

Sola Fide is as Heretical as Sola Scriptura!

It would be funny, if so many gullible and ignorant people did not actually believe it!

[pbaylis1]

I encourage all to read the story of James White's sister - Patty Bonds. Very interesting reading!

[monkigun]

Luther said "Be a sinner and sin boldly.... No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder 1000 times a day." (Luther's Works, American ed. 48. 282)

This is Sola Fide and it is heretical!

[TroyeHaryanto]

Martin Luther was definitely wrong in his theory 'faith alone' jusifies. St James says faith without works is dead. The Book of Revelations also says clearly on the last day, we will be judged by our WORKS. But Luther threw out both St James which he considered 'an epistle of straw' and Revelations, which he said was not guided by the Holy Spirit!!! See how deluded both he and his followers are... Faith in God has to be reflected in love for your neighbour, and not hate or judgement!!

[OchoSeenco]

Epistle of James Chp.2 v.24-26 "Faith w/o works is as dead as a body w/o breath"

I Corintians 13:2 "If I have faith to move mountains, but no charity I am nothing"

Matthew Chp 25:31 "whatever u do unto my brothers u do unto me"

Matthew 19:16 jesus said rich guy had to give up his cash money along w/following commandments.

[xxzzxx99]

In Mathew 19 :16 a man asks Jesus , what must he do to enter eternal life. Jesus says to keep the commandments. HE does not say that in order to get to heaven you must simply have faith. Instead he says that keeping the commandments, (many good works), will get you into heaven.

[xxzzxx99]

SO Jesus did not say that to get to heaven, all you need is faith, rather: the way you live your life, will determine whether you get into heaven or not. Now, Grace plays a part in this because without Gods grace, it is impossible to keep the commandments. Faith is needed to ask for grace, and it is needed for other things too. So works, grace and faith are all necessary to enter heaven.

[xxzzxx99]

ACCORDING TO JESUS , works are needed to get to heaven. Matthew 19:16

[ihaveaverybadcold]

works are the evidence you are saved....works are evidence you have faith God is working in your life....

[xxzzxx99]

The only evidence that a person is saved is when they are sitting in heaven. Works are evidence that you have faith.

[ihaveaverybadcold]

so God doesnt give us assurance?

[xxzzxx99]

Nowhere in the bible does it say we are saved by faith alone. Jesus himself says that to get to heaven, we must keep the law, which is more than just having faith. It is my belief that we need faith, works and grace to get to heaven.

[xxzzxx99]

James 2:24 sums up everything in James 2: You see that it is by doing something good and not only by believing that a man is justified. The whole passage (James 2) leads to a logical conclusion that faith alone does not justify a man but instead, faith and good works. (not ONLY by believing, but in addition to believing.)

[Jintzftw]

sola fides?

Epistle of James CHp 2 v 24-26

"Faith w/o works is as dead as a body w/o breath"

1 Corinthians 13:2

"If i have faith to move mountains, but no charity, i am nothing"

[imromancatholic]

The NT uses the word faith around 300 times. Oddly enough the only time it pairs it with the word alone is in James 2:24 and that isn't much help to faith aloners. Why is "faith alone" a major tenant of protestantism when Paul wouldn't put the words together that they so love? Yes, Luther's version paired the words together in Rom 3:28, but EVERY SINGLE protestant translation has determined it was a corruption of the text and removed it.

[imromancatholic]

Where in the Bible does it say "sole fide" i.e. "faith alone"? Answer it doesn't. Oh well, actually it does but it is James 2:24. Not much help for protestants who hold to this false doctrine. Grace alone is a far better way of looking at things. Grace produces faith and grace produces works. In the end we will be judged by our works done in faith. See Rom 2:4-9, Matt 25, John 15, etc.

[patricktblack]

Luke 18:9-14 says no where that faith alone will save you and that works take no effect in justification. this is a parable of humility and reconciliation. the tax collector was justified by humbling himself before God. nowhere in this passage is faith even mentioned...

[pacman8994]

Thank God we are saved by faith and not by works. Faith Alone...Halelluhah...Faith Alone!!

[chestertonrules]

Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you don not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by WORKS, and not by faith alone."

Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

[xxzzxx99]

Mkfoskey: Define salvation

[mkfoskey]

Soteriology (the study of salvation) includes such concepts as:

1.Regeneration - Being born again, or receiving a new, spiritual nature from God

2.Atonement - Christ's sacrifice pays the penalty for sin, and His righteousness is applied to the person because of faith.

3.Propitiation - God's wrath is satisfied in His justice being placed upon a substitute.

4.Justification - The sinner stands without fault before God

5.Sanctification - The life is conformed to the image of Christ.

[ForestChristian]

The end result of salvation, ultimately, is that a person spend eternity in Heaven rather than Hell. The apostle Paul defined how that happens:

"For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast" (Eph 2:8-9)

[mjmenjivar]

does this passage teach Faith "alone" ??

What JESUS (not Paul) said about salvation?

Does the Holy Spirit gives you the power to HAVE Faith?

Does the Holy Spirit gives you the power to DO good works?

if yes, then there is no difference between faith and Works,

[mkfoskey]

Here is a good analogy regarding the relationship between faith and works. A person can say "bah, bah", but that doesn't make them a sheep. But if a person became a sheep, "bah, bah" would be natural for them.

Likewise, good works do not save a person. But salvation produces good works, as a natural result.

If a person thinks that good works produce salvation, they are like people saying "bah, bah" and thinking that makes them sheep.

Good works are a result, not a cause of salvation.

[ChulaKirby]

@mkfoskey And so I guess you can judge their works then. Remember the fig tree? It had life but yet it didn't produce. Jesus didn't judge it by it's leaves or if it had life (or looked pretty). It had no fruit (works). Faith without works is dead. Faith is a grace. Works is a grace. Grace being a gift from God. Man has to have FAITH and WORKS. God will not save you on the last day if you misquote scripture at the pearly gates. Do not add the word "alone" at the end when you meet Him.

[FesterFester]

"Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due." Romans 4:4

[FesterFester]

"Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law." Romans 3:27-28

[FesterFester]

"This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." Romans 3:21-26

[FesterFester]

"But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it — the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith."

[xxzzxx99]

Good works build the body of christ and are a good response to the commandment to love one another. How does faith alone address this commandment?

[xxzzxx99]

The problem with sola fide is that it does not promote love of neighbor. A doctrine should be consistent with the commandment to love one another. Sola fide does not do anything to motivate a christian to love their neighbour which is what good works are: love of neighbour.

[mkfoskey]

I am sorry, but your point is illogical. The Bible teaches that we love out of gratitude for our salvation, not in order to obtain it. Sola Fide does not destroy the motivation to love our neighbor, it gives the proper motivation for it.

If you are doing good works or loving others to "earn" salvation, you have missed the point of grace entirely.

[xxzzxx99]

I didn't say anything about earning salvation. Did I? I said sola fide does not promote love of neighbour. I didnt say it destroys motivation . Show me where in the bible it says we love out of gratitude for our salvation?

[xxzzxx99]

Good works and love of neighbour are the same thing. Jesus commanded us to love others.Anything that encourages us to do good works is consistent with Jesus' commandment to Love. Any doctrine that discourages us from doing good works is inconsistent with Jesus' teaching on love. This seems pretty straight forward and logical.

[mkfoskey]

Sola Fide does not, in any way, discourage good works. Certainly there are those who may try to distort the doctrine, but the historic protestant position has always been that one cannot separate faith and works - if works are not present, neither is faith. But, this still does not mean that those works produce salvation. Those works are a result of salvation.

Certainly Sola Fide promotes love of neighbor. Faith in Jesus means that you believe what He said, and He said, "love your neighbor."

[mkfoskey]

Ephesians 2:8-10 says we are saved "by" grace "through" faith "for" good works. Thus the vehicle of salvation is grace through faith, the result is good works.

How are good works the result of salvation? They proceed from a heart that loves Jesus and seeks to please Him. "If you love me, you will keep my commandments" says the Savior. If we love Him, we will obey Him. If we have faith, we will do as He says. Why? Because He loved us so much that He came to die for us.

[ForestChristian]

Going further, consider this: Imagine a child who cooks his father breakfast. There could be one of two motivations. The child is trying to earn favor with the father, or the child is attempting to show his love for the father. One is manipulative, the other an example of gratitude. Which type of works would be more pleasing to God?

Certainly the one done in gratitude, rather than the one attempting to "earn" favor.

[ForestChristian]

Also, it doesn't matter if you use the word "earn" or not.

Any works that are done to ensure salvation, rather than being done as a result of salvation, are an attempt to earn salvation.

If works are a "part" of receiving salvation, then they "contribute" to salvation, thus they participate in "earning" salvation. This is logical.

If you view is that works do not earn salvation (as you stated), please tell me what works are for in you view.

[xxzzxx99]

James 2:24: "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." How can you refute this line. It clearly stands in oposition to what you and Luther are saying. I think Paul wrote this passage for Luther and his followers.

[ForestChristian]

By the way...why do you keep saying "Paul wrote..." when you are quoting from James? Just curious.

[xxzzxx99]

Sorry, I thought it was a letter to James by Paul. (aahh) (I think someone needs to read their bible more carefully).

[ForestChristian]

James 1:1 "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion: Greetings"

Regarding this, I would like to make another point. People often place Paul and James against one another because of the issue of Sola Fide. What must be understood, though, is that Paul often speaks of how God determines righteousness (by faith alone, Eph. 2:8; ROm 4ff), and James speaks of the product of true faith, which is works. They do not contradict each other at all.

[xxzzxx99]

James 2:24: "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." How can you refute this line. It clearly stands in oposition to what you and Luther are saying. I think Paul wrote this passage for Luther and his followers.

[ForestChristian]

I do not think you understand the difference between "imputed righteousness" (the historic protestant view) and "infused righteousness" (the Roman Catholic view). We believe that our faith is shown to be just by our works, and without them we are not saved. But it is faith in Christ's merits alone that allow access into heaven. My merits can do nothing but show that I am truly in the faith. They can add nothing to my salvation.

[xxzzxx99]

Forest: SO what you're saying is that a person is declared righteous by faith alone. So if I have faith, then I am righteous, even if I raped 10 women. I still believe Jesus is the son of God and died for my sins, therefore I am righteous? St PAul said that even the devils believe Jesus is the son of God and died for our sins. So does their faith (the demons) make them righteous also?

[ForestChristian]

Actually James made that statement, but no big deal. And the point is not belief, but a faith that is genuine. James made a clear distinction between a living faith and a dead faith. A living faith is one that seeks to conform to Christ. No genuine protestant says that a person can continue in a sinful lifestyle after salvation and claim to have genuine faith.

[xxzzxx99]

Do you agree with this: Faith leads to good works. Becasue the more we grow in Faith, and the more Jesus heals and redeems us, the more we become like christ and act like him. (Loving others). Faith leads to good works then. And if there are no good works, then it is not a living faith because true faith results in good works. Now these works do not have to be visible to others, because God knows all of our intentions, whether what we do is for show, for our own gain, or for Him or others.

[ForestChristian]

The confusion comes when people try to mix justification with sanctification. Justification is how we are legally declared righteous before God, sanctification is the process by which we are conformed to the image of Christ. Any person who has genuinely been justified by faith will be in the process of sanctification, and it should be a change that is visible to others. It is true that God, ultimately, judges our motivation as well as our works, and that should be gratitude for His grace

[xxzzxx99]

Forest: If works dont add to salvation, then why should I do anything good for anyone? If by my faith I am justified, I might as well commit any sin I want because I'm going to heaven anyway. If faith alone gets me into heaven, then why should I avoid sin?

[ForestChristian]

We do good works because we love Jesus. Faith is not just a belief in Jesus, but a bowing down to His Lordship in our lives. We seek to avoid sin (though no one does perfectly) because faith produces that result. If it does not, it is not genuine faith. This is the historic protestant position.

[ihciixc]

Im actually going to make a video in response to this one. But before i do, let me just point out one thing i will talk about in my video. James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? Im sure you can tell that this verse is not talking about "what we see" as this preacher claimed it did.

[ForestChristian]

Actually, the entire context refers to "what we see". James 2:18 "Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." Our works put our faith on display, and declare that it is genuine. If we have not works, we have not faith, which is the historic protestant position.

[ihciixc]

if that is true, how than did james say that when abraham sacrificed his son, his faith was made perfect by his works. It wasnt enough for abraham to say yes Lord i would sacrifice my son, but to actually DO the act of sacrificing his son, his faith was made perfect(james 2:22). It has nothing to do with what we see, because no one was around to see abraham sacrificing his son but God.

[mkfoskey]

As I said, works are a testimony of our faith. Without them our faith is not genuine (and couldn't be "perfect"). No one is debating the necessity of works. The question, rather, is how those works are seen by God. Do they "merit" our salvation, or do they simply prove our faith, which is the vehicle through which justification comes.

If you want to believe that you are saved by your own merits, or that your works add to the work of Christ, you may - I certainly cannot stop you.

[mkfoskey]

Furthermore, we do "see" Abraham's faith when we read Scripture. his life is given to us as a testimony to what real faith looks like. And Paul makes the point, in Romans 4, that God imputed righteousness to Abraham when he believed (Gen 15:6; Rom 4:3). Ultimately, the difference is whether we believe in imputation of righteousness, or infused righteousness. One sees Christ as being the only meritorious one, the other sees us as adding to His merits. As for me, I will trust the Lord.

[mkfoskey]

Lastly, for now, a few words from Paul:

Eph 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

When James is interpreted in the Reformed view, there is no tension between he and Paul. When interpreted any other way, Paul and james contradict one another.

[ihciixc]

what Paul was talking about was salvation coming from God, and not Man. Man cannot save himself. Salvation came through Jesus. No man can work his way to heaven, for salvation REQUIRES faith in Jesus Christ. "lest any man should boast" Meaning, so that no man can say he doesnt need Jesus, for he can save himself.. Salvation is the Gift of Jesus, it can not be made by anyone else no matter how many works you do, is what paul was saying. Therefore, Paul and James do NOT contradict each other

[mkfoskey]

So, do you mean that when Paul uses the phrase "not of works" in regards to salvation, he simply means "not of works alone". Is he then saying that we have to "add" Jesus to our works.

If that is your point, I would argue that you are engaging in eisegesis, my friend, and turning the text on its head to make your point.

[ihciixc]

We do not "ADD" Jesus to our works, but works to Jesus, Eph 2:10"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works". When Jesus said, "believe AND be baptised", he showed us by that statement alone that you are saved by your faith & your works. Can anyone argue that Jesus meant to say "believe and you shall be saved than be baptised". No, infact he said the oposite, "Who ever is not born of water and the spirit can NOT enter the kingdom of heaven", Faith or no faith.

[mkfoskey]

Here we have entered into a whole new issue, one of sacerdotalism. You are now claiming that not only good works are required, but that perfect participation in the sacraments are also required. The issue of baptismal regeneration is one that I have dealt with at length in other writings, and have not the room here. I disagree that "born of water" refers at all to baptism. In John 3 Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus, a Jewish teacher, who would have been familiar with Ezekiel 36:25-27.

[ihciixc]

This is a very big problem, for you to say "i disagree that born of water refers to baptism". You saying that are rejecting 2000 of faith and accepting a 500 year old doctrine. The fact of the matter is, and im not at all condeming you, but the faith the ONCE giving to the saints, not twice, not three times, Once (jude 1:3). If everyone had their own explanation, than its my word vs your word, and his word, and her word. Who than is to say jehovas witnesses arent wrong?

[ForestChristian]

As a student of church history, I understand you argument regarding the 2000 years of faith vs. a 500 year old doctrine. I also understand that the early fathers would often place baptism and salvation together in their writings, as is natural seeing that baptism comes at salvation - at least for those who believe in credobaptism.

but, for thousands of years God has given men symbols to help them understand their faith. Why is it that only baptism is given the power to save?

[ForestChristian]

Furthermore, my position on baptism is more than 500 years old. Baptismal debates have been going on since the early church, especially regarding the issue of infants in baptism. Under the power of Rome, however, these debates were all but silenced until the time of the Reformation.

[ihciixc]

it is not only baptism, its much deeper than you think, and this is also another topic which i was planning to make a video on that i will call "true salvation". But in the end, it is your job and my job to "search the books" as the bible says and learn about our faith, not only that but learn WHERE it came from. For example, i can start my own church if i have a bunch of ideas that are completely wrong but MATCH what the bible says to a certain degree, but that does not make my church authentic

[ForestChristian]

An authentic church preaches the Word, offers the sacraments, and practices discipline. This is the Reformed (and I would argue biblical) definition of a church.

Our faith originates in Scripture. That which cannot be found in Scripture must be tested by Scripture for its accuracy. This is why so many of the doctrines of Rome were debated by the protestants.

[ForestChristian]

Earlier you asked, "Who is to say the Jehovah's Witnesses are wrong?"

Scripture alone.

Sola Fide - Sola Gratia - Sola Scriptura - Solus Christus - Soli Deo Gloria

[ihciixc]

but you see, thats my point.. If you just rely on the bible, all these doctrines are just YOUR definition of what the bible means. So its Your word vs there word. If there was no tradition, than everyone could say what they believed is true doctrine and in the end it depends on who could argue their point more, and that would depend on the persons debating skills, not the inspired word of God.

[ForestChristian]

There is a method, which is called the grammatico-historical method of interpretation where grammar, syntax, context and original usage of language are considered that has been used for biblical interpretation for centuries. This isn't perfect, but most times when a person comes with an interpretation that is faulty, they have broken a simple rule of interpretation.

[ForestChristian]

Furthermore, the Catholic church has a magesterium, which is responsible for interpreting the Bible. But this has not kept individual priests and perishes from "personal" interpretations. I would argue the same could be said for the "Orthodox" church.

My point, simply, is that having a so-called tradition that is passed down does not ensure accuracy. The Catholics have one too.

[ihciixc]

One thing Id like to add quickly, is though the orthodox church and catholic church believe in some same doctrines.. the Orthodox church is WELL AWARE of the catholics not only adding things to the faith, but changing the traditions significantly, and we therefore reject MANY of their ideas. And as you said "having a so-called tradition that is passed down does not ensure accuracy" the catholics lost the tradition when they changed it, an altered tradition is no longer tradition now is it?

[ForestChristian]

But who sets the standard for tradition? I would argue that it is the Scripture, and I would again point to Christ as being the one who gives us that example against the Pharisees, who had a tradition they would have argued was righteous.

But put your video together, and we will continue this then.

[xxzzxx99]

did not

[ihciixc]

I agree with you that the catholic faith and added many things over the years. But the orthodox faith is KNOWN for not having changed a thing, hence the name ORTHODOX. Let me give you 2 examples from the bible..."Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether BY WORD, or our epistle.". It is clear to see that Paul was saying, NOT EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW IS WRITTEN. Some things should be kept IN THE CHURCH.

[ForestChristian]

The catholic church also this passage from Thesselonians, claiming it as the basis for their extra-biblical traditions.

My question to them, and to you as well, is what traditions do you have that can be traced to apostolic teaching that are extra biblical (i.e. not found written in Scripture)?

Jesus demanded that the Pharisees align their traditions with Scripture, and those traditions that were opposed to Scripture were to be jettisoned (Mark 7:1-13).

[ihciixc]

Im actually working on making a video on tradition right now, and everything is from the bible, so wait till i put it up and you can comment on it

[ForestChristian]

I look forward to seeing it.

[ihciixc]

Another thing. Paul said "remember the words of the Lord Jesus, That he said, it is more blessed to give than to recieve". Why is this verse important? Because, this is not written anywhere in the gospels. And Paul never met christ. So how did he know Jesus said these words? Simple, someone told him. Just like he said earlier. "STAND FAST, and HOLD the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by WORD, or our epistle". Has the protestant church done this or not? I think you know the answer

[ihciixc]

You just told me, that "infant baptism" was debated about for years but never changed until the reformation. SO did you keep the tradition? Simply, no. The bible itself shows infant baptism believe it or not in MANY verses. And no where does it say DONT baptise kids in ANY WAY. INfact Christ said "DONT forbid the children from coming to me, for THERES is the kingdom of heaven". What are you doing when denying a child from baptism? Your literally denying them the blessing of God.

[ForestChristian]

I know that you believe your traditions are 2000 years old.

I also know that there are many things that Jesus said that were not written down. But these things are never called theopnuestos (God breathed). Scripture is God breathed (II Tim 3:16).

And, by the way, protestants do hold to traditions, but they are traditions that are firmly founded in the Word. We believe it is foolhardy at best to think that Paul's messages that He gave "by Word" would contradict what he sent "by letter".

[ihciixc]

i understand what you are saying... But our doctrine does not contradict the bible, and TRADITION is the defender of the bible. We say for example we baptise children because it is written in the bible. (ill show you later) You say no, we dont baptise children because ..... We say no in the bible it says this PLUS tradition tells us we have always done this in the past from the early church and EVEN BEFORE the gospels were written. You see how our tradition compliments the bible?

[ihciixc]

anyways just give me some time, im working on the video as we speak.

[ForestChristian]

Let me know when the video is finished, and we can resume our discussions.

[ihciixc]

will do.

[ForestChristian]

Your words, "We do not "ADD" Jesus to our works, but works to Jesus"

Here you agree with me that you believe that you can "add" to Jesus' works with what you do.

I do not only consider this highly unnecessary, but bordering on boastfulness. The best we have is like filthy rags to God. What possible merits can I bring to Him that could "add" anything to Christ?

You say baptism...I ask, does baptism cause salvation? Read further please...

[ForestChristian]

Can someone receive it and not be saved? Certainly Judas received baptism and is in hell right now.

Can someone be saved apart from it? The thief on the cross certainly would say yes.

But can someone be saved apart from faith? Never.

Baptism is a NT covenantal seal, and it is quite important. But we must take care to not give the symbol the power of what it represents. This is where the Judaizers failed regarding circumcision.

[ihciixc]

Faith cannot be done without works, or works done without faith. You cannot choose to do one and leave out the other. For example: If i believe, am i saved? You would say yes, but Jesus says no, he says believe AND Be baptised. But why should i be baptised if I have already been saved by my faith? Isnt that enough? No, i must DO something, i must get up and be baptised. "unless one is born of water and the spirit, he CANNOT enter the kingdom of heaven"(John 3)

[ihciixc]

Might i add, that the Orthodox faith (my faith) does not believe you can save yourself, for salvation comes only through christ. But to be saved is not a static decision, it is dynamic. You cannot say "i was saved december 21 cuz thats when i gained faith. No, True faith is not a decision, it is a way of life.

[mkfoskey]

Again, the answer lies in your undersanding of thew Bible's use of the word "imputation" which means to "be charged to your account". When Christ dies on the cross, my sins were charged to Him and His righteousness imputed to me. This action is a "done" action, which is why He said, "It is finished." When I believe on Christ, I am believing that He has done all that is required to procure my salvation, and my works add nothing to His work.

[mkfoskey]

Furthermore, you question the use of the word "saved" and giving a date for it. Would you object to a person saying, "I was 'born again' on such and such date?"

Most folks, when they speak of "when" they were 'saved' are speaking of the time they were born again. I would agree that faith is a lifestyle, not just a decision, but it doesn't hurt my argument in the least. It is still "by faith" that we are justified.

[mkfoskey]

When you consider the aruments being made here, we are saying similar things regarding the necessity of works. The problem is that we disagree on the cause/effect relationship of these things.

I would argue that faith is the CAUSE and works are the EFFECT of my salvation in Christ.

You seem to believe that both faith and works are the CAUSE of your salvation.

We may never find common ground on that issue, but we should at least agree that this is disagreement between us.

[ForestChristian]

Finally, the Reformed position is, and always has been, that "faith alone justifies before God, but genuine faith will never be alone" meaning that it will never be devoid of works. If it is, it is not genuine faith.

Those who hold that you "believe once" and continue without a change of heart or repentance of sin are not describing a Reformed understanding of Sola Fide.

The heart of the Reformed faith is the imputation of Christ's righteousness, which we receive by faith alone(Phil 3:9)

[ihciixc]

i agree that this is our dissagreement. That you believe "faith is the CAUSE and works are the EFFECT", While i believe faith and works are both the cause and one cannot be without the other.

[mkfoskey]

I also believe that one cannot be without the other.

Your statement seems to indicate that you believe I think otherwise. I do not. The Bible teaches that genuine faith will produce works, without question.

It seems we have already covered this, and my position is clear.

The issue at hand is the understanding of imputation of righteousness.

When is one counted righteous? The Bible declares that Abraham was counted righteous when he believed (Gen. 15:6). Paul echoes this in Romans 4.

[ihciixc]

in Gen 15:6, when abraham was counted as rightiouse this does not neccesarily mean that he is saved at that point in time, like i said, salvation is not a decision, and abraham made the decision to beleive in God, so to say he was saved at that point in time is to say salvation is a decision. Salvation is a life long journey, it is gained by consistent faith & works.

[ForestChristian]

Romans 4:1-5 "What then shall we say was gained by [1] Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness"

[ForestChristian]

Also, you keep using words like "gained by"...it would seem that you are focused upon earning something more than what Christ has provided as a gift to be received by faith.

Romans 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith."

"from faith to faith" means faith, from first to last, adding nothing of our own merits.

[ihciixc]

i think the best thing to do, is to make that video answering all your questions, we cant keep going back and forth on this, i cant even write all i was due to the limit of letters i can use in each response. So i will make a video, and i will use every verse u quoted.

[ChulaKirby]

@ForestChristian So do I have faith if I believe Jesus built a Church and the gates of hell or hades would not overcome it and it is the pillar and foundation of truth? Deut 18: 20-22, Matt 16:18, 1 Tim 3:15 Do I lack faith in Jesus and His word if I say the devil overcame His Church and it started teaching error? the word "faith" could mean everything and anything I want it to mean depending on what I want it to mean. faith in some of what He said? Faith in ALL that He said and taught.