Tony Cecchine's American Catch Wrestling: figure 4 choke and its pretenders

[0713mas]

Seems like every once in a while a "new" trend or move will work it's way into BJJ or MMA.

Often these techniques can be traced back to

Catch wrestling.

[b7r7u7c7e]

Even though I'm a brown belt in BJJ and a black belt in judo my early training came from Frank Shamrock and his top students in the mid 90's. So I've had real catch training. I think any promotion of catch is great. What I find suspicious is how if you say anything from a different point of view toney or his people will delete and block you. What are we in the third grade? So you only want to have positive things on your page?

[amci06042]

b7r7u7c7e - I been asking politely to tell me which video was you post deleted? I have seen posts calling Tony everything but none has been deleted. I have given you a probable cause (Tony's video posted by his detractors) cause I posted on those video and mine was not even posted. Tony doesn't do anything on this videos on youtube. This is mostly done by his students. So again please show me URL of the video where you alleged it was deleted.

[152Dex]

Love this martial art will practice it

[blutobelushi]

He is the real deal.very tough.a killer.

[hoghash78]

Damn, that shit was almost scary! I feel bad for Acosta.

[nHautamaki]

Tony, what do you think of the variation where you grab your own bicep instead of your wrist? That's always how I used to do do front chokes (with some success) but I'm interested to try this version and see if it's better.

[cecchinecatch]

@nHautamaki Grabbing the wrist is a quicker choke out and makes slamming his face to the ground easier. Grabbing your bicep would make a different fulcrum/leverage and may not be possible to do as effectively depending on your physical build. They are two different types of chokes. Try them both equally to make a fair comparison.

[nHautamaki]

@cecchinecatch Thanksf for the response. I've found that going for the wrist grip is faster and easier to get on in fact, and tighter if you remember to use your elbows. Now, going for the bicep grip feels like too much of your arm is getting in your own way. So thanks again for the great technique!

[kommisar]

Are you and he talking about a variation on the guillotine? The one I'm thinking of is where you stand square to him, put your forearm blade under his neck, take your other arm and get an underhook, grab your bicep with the choking arm (choke arm grabs underhook arm) and then pull his neck in, causing his head to go down into his chest. That has seemed pretty effective for me so far, even if it's not a high percentage move.

[cecchinecatch]

@kommisar Not sure what's being referenced here, but let me just say that staying square to your opponent is not a good idea.

[kommisar]

Umm, not sure how else to explain it. Your forearm goes under the neck, then with the other arm you get an underhook. The choking arm grabs the other underhooked arm's bicep. You do this when the guy's head is down, and then to finish you push your chest into his head, which causes his chin to go down into your arm that's choking him. Is that clearer now?

[cecchinecatch]

@kommisar You described it fine the first time. I wasn't sure who you were asking the question of -- or what you wanted for an answer.

No, we're not talking about a variation of the guillotine. Here, a figure four grip is used to constrict the arteries, and the blade can also be applied to crush the windpipe. You aren't directly square to your opponent.

[ramrod20042000]

Brutal stuff! I wonder why there are not any "Catch Wrestling" schools around? Just BJJ schools

[forgefire96]

i've tried this several times in BJJ class and i always wind up with a nasty neck crank rather than the choke. Any idea on where I might be missing it?

[cecchinecatch]

@forgefire96 The most likely thing I can think of is that you are standing square with your opponent rather than getting an angle on him, and that's leaving some space. This is, however, a very easy choke to apply once you get the components right. Make sure you have his head slightly turned; make sure you are gripping on his trap; get that angle I spoke of, and then use your weight. To make the choke even tighter, rotate the blade to his windpipe.

[NorthPoleXmasTrees]

Costa is the man!

[muvintegratedfitness]

"This time I'll be gentle"  haha. Tony is great!

[LordNifty]

Would this be legal in the UFC? I think this might count as a throat strike, so that is why I am asking. I'm just curious.

[nHautamaki]

Yes of course this is legal, hitting a guy with your bicep isn't really counted as a strike for the purposes of the unified rules, Tony just used that word to emphasize the speed you have to come in at to get the proper angle and set up to finish the choke.

[pocketfullofstones]

I'm curious. In Snap no Tap Tony says its paramount you fight to get the choke, but the front face lock seems like it'll do the job just as well. Is it because there's a chance he could head slip out of the face lock?

[cecchinecatch]

@pocketfullofstones Well, in a street situation you're protecting yourself by putting the guy out.

The facelock is great -- you can literally break the guy's teeth -- but the choke is more effective in terms of ending the encounter.

[monji112000]

what a joke.

[swshguy]

Man he was out in 3 sec. That is a quick ass knockout

[alexpapyz31]

ONE

[globe255]

Not delicate.

[123bigr]

Gifted teacher. Not everyone can explain complex moves the way he can. Thanks for sharing

[kuracburac]

Tony Cecchine is real deal!

When he put out his LAOH series, people started changing the way they did leglocks.

Also this version of lock is the best!

Try it out for you self!

[quezzie13]

Thats sick!!!! He only had it locked for two seconds and the dude was out. Tony is without a doubt a legit teacher of true catch wrestling technique.

[gungfu777]

I like how "The Grobbit" - Dave Faulkner from the DVD "The Grapplers Advantage" Dave Faulkner does this version. Its spelled wrong but when you type in "the grobbit" on youtube he puts his hand on his FORARM not his wrist like most people do it. Makes the hold much tighter and hard to get out of cause your leaning forward...chest to back if you wil. Billy Robson version(Grabs wrist not forarm)is okay but would be hard to get on a guy my size. 6'4 240.

[cecchinecatch]

@gungfu777 In our video series we have Kosta (5'11" 195) put it on Brian K (6'3" 300 -- world record holding weight lifter). You actually want to move off center, making the man carry your weight. If you are leaning forward squared up to your opponent, you're leaving a couple of big escape routes. And, the more you move off center to block that escape route, the easier it is to grab up. Try it both ways. See what works best for you.

[gungfu777]

VERY INTERESTING! Cecchinecatch, Ive had alot of bjj/mma guys train my bouncers but has of late I want to learn myself. Just saw some of my guys go at it last night & Im amazed how my bouncers use great techinigue know not brute strengh on customers who get out of hand.

[cygnus108]

WOW...Why dont they use this choke more instead of the regular guilotine in mma.......

[cecchinecatch]

@cygnus108 Several reasons: first, most people don't know it; second, because it's the kind of choke that is grabbed off of a snap down or a failed shot, and many MMA guys with wrestling backgrounds train BJJ for submissions, which means they are more likely to go for a guillotine choke. Both chokes can be very effective, but the guillotine isn't as tight (mechanically, it can't be), and it requires that you try to stretch the neck out. It is also easier to counter, IMO.

[gungfu777]

Is there any video of you wrestling? Have you ever competed against any mma fighters. Just wanted to know cause I have a couple of Bjj guys who have been training my bouncers at my club...they have competed against alot of catch wrestlers in japan and I was wondering if you ever trained any of them.

[cecchinecatch]

@gungfu777 Tony has trained guys who've won in UFC, Pancrase, etc. Japanese catch is a bit different from what we do; it is a hybrid of pro wrestling and shoot fighting (with some jiu jitsu and judo thrown in), and comes primarily from Karl Gotch and Billy Robinson. American catch teaches "hooks," which are less concession holds and more designed to maim and break stuff. Compare, eg., the double wrist lock as we teach it, and the double wrist lock as Robinson shows it on youtube.

[gungfu777]

Interesting. Didnt know there was a differance. Im a big guy 6'4 240 and when this lil guy Robson moura(7th black belt in Bjj)put me in all three of these figure for holds I could not excape. So I think they all work. Just depends on what works for you. Thanks again.

[cecchinecatch]

@gungfu777 Oh, they'll all work given the right set of circumstances, don't get me wrong. It's just that one is more appropriate as a crank, not a choke. And even then, the crank will be tighter on the trap and wrist, because you are leaving less space for the head and cinching up tight. It's simple geometry, really: the less open space, the tighter the head is controlled.

[gungfu777]

the grobbit...Go to youtube and type The Grobbit. This is how Robson Moura did the hold on me. Unlike Billy he puts his hand on his forarm not his wrist. Tell me what you think. But your right for a bodyguard or bouncer it would work better. This video version would be better for street fight.

[cecchinecatch]

@gungfu777 The Grovit, yes. I know Tony liked to use this when he was bodyguarding because it was a nice come along, but at any time he could put the squeeze on and put the guy out. Matter of preference, I guess. I think the choke is harder to get out of, as is demonstrated here.

[hector17dreams]

Ed "Strangler" Lewis taught Lou Thesz. Both of those men were legendary Pro Wrestlers. Lou Thesz took Tony under his wing. Tony has never been in the UFC or... I don't take Tony seriously. Who has he ever beat? Where's that video at?

[cecchinecatch]

@hector17dreams It's tools like you who give the rest of us a bad name. Tony was never trained by Lou. Lou simply recognized Tony's chops. The UFC didn't even exist in 1977 (when Tony began training). In fact, there was no such thing in the US as "submission grappling tournaments." Nobody who's ever met or trained with Tony doubts his abilities. You don't take Tony seriously? Who care? The clips are here. They stand or fall on their own. Meanwhile, who the fuck are you, anyway?

[gungfu777]

I respect Tony I just find it odd that when people speak of catch there never bring Tonys name up. I always here about Farmer burns, Billy Riley,(He had the snake pit the most respected catch wrestling school in the world)Karl Gotch who trained Billy Robinson. He went to Japan & trained the Japense in catch. Out of this came Yoshiaki Fujiwara, Masakatsu Funaki, who both trained The Shamrock brothers. What all these men had in common was they competed.

[cecchinecatch]

@gungfu777 @gungfu777 Barnett always recommends Lost Art of Hooking, and Paulsen speaks of Tony all the time. Maybe you should have asked. Robinson, Paulsen, and Barnett all sell material through Scientific Wrestling -- a competitor of Tony's. But Paulsen, for instance, is involved with a book on catch that has an entire chapter on Tony. Statements like yours are how bad info gets perpetuated. It's a shame.

[gungfu777]

Also I saw this amazing tape by Billy Robinson call WAR. Nothing fancy on this tape. Pure catch...brutal leg locks, chokes, hooks, and sick front face/neck cranks. Eric Pauslon & Josh Barnet was talking to Billy Robson about the history of catch. Again they had nothing to say about Toney. Again I have respect for Tony and whoever spread the art of catch but unlike these guys(Ken, Frank, Sakaraba etc)theres no paper trail. Just well he trained a couple of these guys and so on.

[cecchinecatch]

@gungfu777 Barnett always recommends Lost Art of Hooking, and Paulsen speaks of Tony all the time. Maybe you should have asked. Robinson, Paulsen, and Barnett all sell material through Scientific Wrestling -- a competitor of Tony's. But Paulsen, for instance, is involved with a book on catch that has an entire chapter on Tony. Statements like yours are how bad info gets perpetuated. It's a shame.

[cecchinecatch]

@gungfu777 You don't know what you're talking about. Tony's first catch instructionals came out in '97 or thereabouts. Paulsen and Barnett always recommend him. And there's plenty of "paper trails." Just because you don't know where or how to look doesn't change that fact. If you don't believe Lou Thesz, or your own eyes, then by all means go find and train your catch elsewhere. But don't be surprised when you find you are learning pro wrestling.

[gungfu777]

@cecchinecatch Im not saying its not true. Like I said I respect anyone who teaches catch. Its just that I cant find any quote online or any tape of Paulsen or Barnett(Shamrocks brothers etc)that mentions him. All I get is people saying I heard from these guy that knows this guy that rolled with him. lol Again find it odd how much lack of info. No biggie.

[wheelkick]

@gungfu777 What are you talking about ? Everybody knows Cecchine is the real deal. He is THE catch authority out there. I have trained in the martial arts all my life and I wouldn't want any part of this guy. Maybe with my Glock from 20 feet away. Maybe.

[cecchinecatch]

@wheelkick I believe Paulsen's book on catch has a chapter devoted to him.

[powerpunch2]

@cecchinecatch tony the current king of catch, I wouldnt wanna make this guy angry

[dsarkissian]

Learned this from your DVD "The Lost Art of Hooking"

I cannot tell you how many times have successfully applied this front choke whilst grappling. This is a devastating choke.

[youngonesrule]

WHERE DID BRUCE GO????

[LLMelvinL]

He tapped out.

[TheRealWm]

Is this more likely to kill someone than a regular choke? You scare me when you say "a second more and he may be past the point of return". That is really fast and makes me afraid to use it I have learned the neck crank you mentioned though

[cecchinecatch]

This is a very fast, very powerful choke. Here, the last two components -- turning up the blade of the left arm (to attack the windpipe) and sprawling -- aren't even demonstrated. Kosta has a developed neck; those who haven't trained to protect the carotid will go out quicker. So yeah, be careful with this.

[Rush718]

I'll give it a try. Thanks a bunch. CACC FOREVER!

[Rush718]

Even if you step in and drive your hips forward? Wouldnt it be hard to go for the fireman's carry? So what if you arm drag the arm and go for a single leg if you can't get the hold secure?

[cecchinecatch]

Have a training partner frame it up your way and have him bring his hips forward. Is he squared up with you? If so, sag, hip into him, and see if you can't pop your head right out.

[Rush718]

ok I see billy robinson teach this hold with the arm but he said to step in with your hips to cause pressure on the neck while doing that crushing grip. Which is way is good? Just curious to know.

[cecchinecatch]

If you grab the arm, that's a show hold. It can work as a crank, but you have to be square to your opponent, and that leaves you vulnerable to all sort of ready counters (here, Kosta shows the fireman's carry). Think about it: if you are framing up with your hand on your opponents arm, you aren't cincing the artery on one side of the neck. It's a poor strangle.

[JBGOT]

The hold that Robinson demonstrates from this position isn't a choke.. its a grovit.. a crank/crush.. pain compliance... I've trained with Mr. Robinson and its most definitely a crank that he's doing from this position as opposed to the choke that Mr. Cecchine is using here. Two different solutions to the riddle of the same position.

[cecchinecatch]

As a crank it's okay, though it will work best on somebody with no training. Grabbing the arm as a frame-up leaves too many escape routes (some of which are detailed here). We do a front face lock from this position that is similar to the choke in terms of grip. The finish position is a bit different.  But again, the figure four grip shown here makes the face lock that much tighter. Try it. You can literally break teeth/ necks. We show it on Snap, No Tap, the sequel to Lost Art of Hooking.