JWQ #4: Do You Worship a "Pagan" Trinity? #4 of 4

[onemarktwoyou]

I watched all these. I am not a JW! More I here the trinity described the more it sounds like heresy.

1) It evolved long after Jesus was taken into Heaven.

2) It took Greek converts whom understood the trinity as Plato described it to come up with it. And it is exactly as Plato described.

3) Moses and all the other Prophets were happily ignorant of it.

4) What isn't published about the council of Nicaea, it also had to determine the number of gods their was.

Heresy started early!

[SorokChyetirye]

@onemarktwoyou We also have pagan gods who rose from the dead, had sons born from virgins, who ceremonially used wine (or grape juice -_-) and bread, who gave people rules to follow, and who saved a certain culture from distress at the hands of many invaders? Does that mean that Jesus and YHWH are pagan gods based on those pagan gods? Guilt by analogy is not a valid reason to disbelieve in something.

[onemarktwoyou]

@SorokChyetirye

The question of the trinity is that the concept had to evolve over centuries. Thus was not given to man by G-d.

Moses and all the other prophets never stated it. Nor did Jesus.No where in the bible had it. 1John5:7 was added as well as Matthew 28:19 has signs of alteration. Both of these show signs of being not what was written.

Please give me examples of the Christ parallels that you have stated exists, so I can better understand your reply.

[SorokChyetirye]

@onemarktwoyou There are far more passages than that that make reference to the Trinity. CARM has a long list of references to God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit as the Holy Trinity, from Genesis to Relevation. (Note that God, Jesus, and the HS are not three separate gods, as it is with the Mormons, but is the One True God's three aspects. It's kinda like schizophrenia, but unified and unconflicting.)

You will also not find the word "Bible" in the Bible. Yet we all think of the Bible as authority.

[SorokChyetirye]

@onemarktwoyou Osiris, a pagan god, rose from the dead, as did Christ as all four of the Gospels and the Epistles testify to. Dionysus was the Greek god of wine and wine was used ceremonially in his honour. Krishna, Buddha, and Dionysus were all sons of virgins (or "godly" impregnation). Does that mean Jesus is a myth based on Osiris, Dionysus, and Buddha? No. Nor is the Trinity a pagan lie.

[SorokChyetirye]

@onemarktwoyou for those Bible verses that exemplify the Trinity, from Genesis to Revelation:

carm . org/trinity

[onemarktwoyou]

@SorokChyetirye

Old atheist arguments?

1)Osiris, there was NO resurrection.

2)Dionysus, earliest account of his resurrection was 2nd century A.D.. Most likely copied from the stories of Jesus.

3)Budha, again not a story of resurrection. Given a completely new body based on morality of how it was lived.

Alcohol was used by all people across the globe. Of course it would have been brought into practices of spiritual use.

And I have studied all those examples where the trinity was to be found.

[SorokChyetirye]

@onemarktwoyou There WAS a resurrection. If not, as Paul says to the 1 Corinthians 15:17, our faith is in vain. All the Gospels testify to the fact of His Resurrection. And you damn well know they couldn't get away with a lie like that.

Dionysus was a pagan god who was worshiped long before the Son was made incarnate (not that he has anything to do with the resurrection, nor Buddha). But Bacchus was the god of wine, and Buddha a great teacher.

[SorokChyetirye]

@onemarktwoyou Your studies are done in bias - and your teachers are in bias, too. And not Godly bias, but human bias. Bias that cannot accept that God has a Son. Or that God became human. Lived like a human. Died like a criminal. Faced everything a human faced.

You cannot tolerate a loving, human God. What else is Christ incarnate BUT God and man unified, so that even God can know how His Creation lives and breathes?

And without the Holy Spirit, where is the authority of your teaching?

[SorokChyetirye]

@onemarktwoyou The atheist use those arguments, and they have a slight point. Not in so much because Jesus is a lie. Christ is the Son of God. But because Jesus is reflected in all Creation, even pagan myth. In every myth since the dawn of civilization, Christ's life is found and reflected. Christ's life, death and resurrection is the summit of all of these tales, in that it contains all of them, and really happened. In other words, to take Christ seriously, you must believe it all about Him.

[onemarktwoyou]

@SorokChyetirye

Your the one who pointed out stories of resurrection out of Christianity! I stated the story of Osiris was not of resurrection! NO where did I say Jesus wasn't raised from the died! Your the one with the atheist arguments against it!!! Dionysus was worshipped before Jesus. But the story of his resurrection was created after Jesus!!!!! Earliest evidence points to 200A.D.. Your all over the road. If you point to paganism for your belief then your not a christian. Sola Scriptura!

[TheLastReformation]

But I hope, you will accept all my posts. God bless you!

[TheLastReformation]

OK. Just delete what you want :)

[TheLastReformation]

Now go to sleep sister and good night! Matthew 25:1-13

[TheLastReformation]

Now I ask you if brother Raymond Franz was right or not about you, oh, ex-jw missions?

"You will find that many of what are called “ex-JW ministries, ” have often simply exchanged their previous beliefs for what is known as “orthodoxy.” Orthodoxy undoubtedly contains its measure of what is sound. But it also contains elements that are the result of imposition of religious authority, rather than belief clearly set forth in Scripture.

[TheLastReformation]

This Theophile did not hesitate to speak of the letters of Paul as the "holy and divine Word [Verbe]," not without ridding them of the Marconite word [parole]. He also borrowed from Theodotus the notion of the trinity and he would undertake the "harmonization of the Gospels, which thus appeared to him nearly deprived of harmony," Deschner remarks.[9]

[TheLastReformation]

"Other texts by Paul were written: the so-called "pastorals." Joseph Turmel has established that the letters of Ignacius of Antioch -- the same ones that the tradition cite as the [first] appearance of the word "catholic" -- reveal the existence of a Marcionite version (135, at the earliest); before being revised, around 190-210, by another bishop of Antioch, Theophile, who, despite his hostility to Marcion, complacently based himself upon the inspiration of the Novum Testamentum.[8]

[TheLastReformation]

Missionary zeal; the eagerness to found communities; the hope for divine authority, the investment of which he would receive in Rome; the monarchal organization of the ekklesiai; virulent anti-Semitism (destructing jewish books in churches); the conception of a Christianity purified of its Judaism; a theology inspired by Greek thought: these compose a great many of the fundamental traits of the future Catholic Church."

[TheLastReformation]

Chapter 11: Marcion and the Hellenization of Christianity

"Despite two centuries and an accusation of heresy that separated him from the State religion, Marcion might well pass for the true father of the Catholic Church, a father maladroitly abandoned to the world, a runt that only his enemies brought to maturity.

[TheLastReformation]

The spiritual leader of the so called arianism is not Arius, is Lucian of Antioch

wiki/Lucian_of_Antioch

[TheLastReformation]

In fact, within three months after the conclusion of the council, returning to his own original and manifest impiety, Eusebius was sent into exile as Secundus had predicted.

"I pray that you fare well in the Lord, remembering our tribulations, fellow-Lucianist, truly-called Eusebius [i.e. the pious one]."

/urkunde-1

Who was this Lucian?

[TheLastReformation]

Bishop of Ptolemais Secundus prophecy ... has turned over one of the "traitors":

“You subscribed, Eusebius, in order to escape being sent into banishment. But I place my confidence in a revelation made to me by God, that within a year you too will be sent into exile.”

[TheLastReformation]

There, obviously; for I have your letters, which you have scraped with the pen of madness toward me, in which you say that all the Libyan populace is of the same opinion with you – doubtless in regard to salvation. But if you shall deny that this is so, I now call God to witness that truly I send to Alexandria – that you may perish more quickly – the Erythraean Sibyl’s very ancient tablet, composed in the Greek tongue."

[TheLastReformation]

but you will decline to extreme ruin, for you have dared to engulf the receptacle of celestial flowers and to mangle it with a bite and you have polluted it with iron teeth.” (20.) What then, knave? Where in the world do you admit that you are now?

[TheLastReformation]

For she indeed says: “Woe to you, Libya, situated in maritime regions, for there shall come to you a time, in which with the people and your daughters you must be compelled to undergo a terrible and cruel and very difficult crisis, from which a judgment both of faith and of piety in respect to all persons will be given,

[TheLastReformation]

Emperor Constantin and the Erythraean sibyl (pagan oracle):

"(18.) Lend your ears and listen a little, impious Arius, and understand your folly. O God, protector of all, may you be well – disposed to what is being said, if it should admit of faith! For I, your man, holding to your propitious providence, from the very ancient Greek and Roman writing shall demonstrate clearly Arius’ madness, which has been prophesied and predicted three thousand years ago by the Erythraean sibyl. (19.)

[TheLastReformation]

"The angel here notes two things: first that the Church will be in great affliction and trouble at Christ's coming, and next that God will send his angel to deliver it, whom he here calls Michael, meaning Christ, who is proclaimed by the preaching of the Gospel."

Geneva Study Bible - the old protestant Bible commentary

[TheLastReformation]

"And at that time stand up doth Michael, the great head, who is standing up for the sons of thy people, and there hath been a time of distress, such as hath not been since there hath been a nation till that time, and at that time do thy people escape, every one who is found written in the book"

Young's Literal Translation

[TheLastReformation]

And he saith, Hast thou known why I have come unto thee? and now I turn back to fight with the head of Persia; yea, I am going forth, and lo, the head of Javan hath come; but I declare to thee that which is noted down in the Writing of Truth, and there is not one strengthening himself with me, concerning these, except Michael your head."

Young's Literal Translation

[TheLastReformation]

"And the head of the kingdom of Persia is standing over-against me twenty and one days, and lo, Michael, first of the chief heads, hath come in to help me, and I have remained there near the kings of Persia;

(...)

[TheLastReformation]

Will raise all those whose were written in the book, and many who died and were buried will be resurrected; some to life in the age, some to disgrace, and some will be scattered and shamed in that age. Then those who understand my words will shine like the brightness of the sky and like the stars in the heavens for ages of ages."

Septuagint - Daniel 12:1-3

[TheLastReformation]

"And in that hour, the Highest Messenger MichaEl (the one who watches over the sons of your people) will arise, and then a time of difficulty will begin such as has never happened before and will never happen again. 

[TheLastReformation]

and the people who are under its shadow are they who have heard the proclamation, and have believed upon Him. And the great and glorious angel Michael is he who has authority over this people, and governs them; for this is he who gave them the law into the hearts of believers: he accordingly superintends them to whom he gave it, to see if they have kept the same."

"The Pastor of Hermas"

[TheLastReformation]

"This great tree that casts its shadow over plains, and mountains, and all the earth, is the law of God that was given to the whole world; and this law is the Son of God, proclaimed to the ends of the earth;

[TheLastReformation]

"And even if there be not as yet any one who is worthy to be called a son of God, nevertheless let him labour earnestly to be adorned according to His first-born Word, the eldest of His angels, as the great archangel of many names; for he is called, the Authority, and the Name of God, and the Word, and Man according to God's image, and He who sees Israel."

P. 247, The Works of Philo, "On the Confusion of Tongues"

[TheLastReformation]

Arian Christology is Jewish-Magharian (Hassidim) Christology. Magharians was the Jewish "Hassidim" in the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

So, Arian Christology is the nontrinitarian belief that Christ was God's archangel - Michael, who chose to become a human.

Arian (Hasidim) Christology opossing Athanasian Christology

What is Athanasian Christology?

Athanasian (pro-sabbelian and neo-gnostic) Christology—the trinitarian belief that Christ was God himself who chose to become a human.

[TheLastReformation]

"There is nothing surprising in the fact that the doctrine of the Angel-Messiah (the angelos-christos) was originally Essene, since it was shared by the [various] Christianities and predominated up to the historization of Jesus, undertaken in the second half of the Second Century."

[TheLastReformation]

"Who were these Magharians, whose existence dates back to the First Century before the Christian era? Their Arab name leaves little doubt; it means "people of the cavern or the cave," because -- Shahrastani makes clear -- they hid their sacred texts in caverns."



[TheLastReformation]

But this is the Arius invention?

"The Arab historian Shahrastani (Seventh Century) affirms that, in the Fourth Century, Arius borrowed his doctrine, according to which the Messiah is the first angel of God for the Magharians, "who lived four hundred years before Arius and were known by the simplicity of their way of life and their serene abstinence."



[TheLastReformation]

Who "invented" the "Michael christology"?

"Arian Christology—the nontrinitarian belief that Christ was an archangel who chose to become a human ..."

/arian-christology-754891.html

[TheLastReformation]

Opinion rejected in 268 at the Council of Antioch, but later accepted at the Council of Nicaea.

"Ironically, the synod that deposed Paul of Samosate would reject the term homoousios (consubstantial) by which he designated the identity of God and the Christ; this was the same quality that the Church would impose in the Fourth Century as the only trinitary truth."

resistance-17.html

[TheLastReformation]

The neo-gnostics lost the battle of Antioch (268), but later win the battle of Nicaea (325):

"If he adapted the trinitarian conception -- Father-Son and Pneuma-Spirit (Spirit), which would triumph at Nicaea -- from the Valentinian Theodotus, Bardesane was opposed to Marcion and he rejected the Demiurgical creation. According to Bardesane, the world was the work of a Good God, because, despite its imperfections, salvation enters into mankind's possibilities."

[TheLastReformation]

The late ex-JW's leader was right, but who care?

So many former Witnesses are at a disadvantage when pressured by others to conform to views these have adopted. Dogmatic assertions from sources that claim to base their arguments on knowledge of Biblical Greek often awe former Witnesses—even as they were previously awed by claims of a similar nature from the Watch Tower organization. So many points could be clarified if people were simply to read the same text in a variety of translations.

[TheLastReformation]

Now we could reconstruct the steps of the Trinity in Christianity

First step: Paganism (Hermes, Plato)

Second step: Gnosticism (Valentinus)

Third step: Christianity (Theodotus)

marcellus of Ancyra: "Valentinus, the leader of a sect, was the first to devise the notion of three subsistent entities (hypostases), in a work that he entitled On the Three Natures. For, he devised the notion of three subsistent entities and three persons — father, son, and holy spirit"

[TheLastReformation]

Marcellus of Ancyra (sabbelian): Valentinus the heresiarch first invented in the book entitled by him 'On the Three Natures'. For he was the first to invent three hypostases and three persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and he is discovered to have filched this from Hermes and Plato.

[TheLastReformation]

So, the Trinity concept is pagan in origin, but who introduced first in Christianity?

Was Theodotus a pupil of the gnostic leader Valentinus.

[TheLastReformation]

From a private e.mail letter from Raymond Franz

[TheLastReformation]

They would then at least see that where translation is concerned, dogmatism is greater evidence of ignorance than of learning. I find this to be the case with many who adopt the Trinity doctrine."

[TheLastReformation]

So many former Witnesses are at a disadvantage when pressured by others to conform to views these have adopted. Dogmatic assertions from sources that claim to base their arguments on knowledge of Biblical Greek often awe former Witnesses—even as they were previously awed by claims of a similar nature from the Watch Tower organization. So many points could be clarified if people were simply to read the same text in a variety of translations.

[TheLastReformation]

It is difficult, for example, to find any reputable reference work that does not acknowledge the post-Biblical origin of the trinity doctrine. I feel that the main problem with the trinity doctrine is the dogmatism and judgmentalism that customarily accompanies it. That to me is but another evidence of the fragility of its foundation. Were it clearly taught in Scripture, there would be no need for authoritarian imposition of the teaching and heavy pressure to submit to it.

[TheLastReformation]

That's why brother Raymond Franz stated regarding the Trinity doctrine this:

"You will find that many of what are called “ex-JW ministries, ” have often simply exchanged their previous beliefs for what is known as “orthodoxy.” Orthodoxy undoubtedly contains its measure of what is sound. But it also contains elements that are the result of imposition of religious authority, rather than belief clearly set forth in Scripture.

[TheLastReformation]

Enclosing the greater area with the smallest perimeter, the triangle, derived from the vesica piscis, the Triad was considered by the Pythagoreans as the most beautiful number, as it is the only number to equal the sum of all the terms below it, and the only number whose sum with those below equals their product."

/wiki/Triad_%28symbol%29



[TheLastReformation]

"Pythagoreanism is a term used for the esoteric and metapsihical beliefs held by Phytagoras and his followers, the Pythagoreans, who were much influenced by mathematics and probably a main inspirational source for Plato and platonism."

/wiki/Pythagoreanism

[TheLastReformation]

"For, as the Pythagoreans say, the world and all that is in it is determined by the number three, since beginning and middle and end give the number of an 'all', and the number they give is the trinity [Greek trias; English = "trinity"]. And so, having taken these three from nature as (so to speak) laws of it, we make further use of the number three in the worship of the Gods." (Aristotle, On the Heavens, Book I, 1)

[TheLastReformation]

This Greek philosopher's [Plato, fourth century B.C.E.] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions." -- (Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467.

[TheLastReformation]

Hello and peace of God Almighty!

Regarding the popular Trinity doctrine

The Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel: "The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches . . .

[zeustruth]

GOD isnt the first, before there was the bible and so called christains...there was Pagans..greek and roman gods/goddesses..get you're facts stright.

Blessed be!

[HeresyB12]

To believe these Trinity lies is to deny the significance of Jesus death and resurrection. And such persons will die in their sins. Your explanation is a bunch of deceptive twisting of the truth about the SON of God. Jesus himself said, "the Father is GREATER than I am."

[christo1961]

He also said "the Father and I are one."

[renex619x]

THIS disreputable history of the Trinity fits in with what Jesus and his apostles foretold would follow their time. They said that there would be an apostasy, a deviation, a falling away from true worship until Christ's return, when true worship would be restored before God's day of destruction of this system of things.

[deelo505]

Insight on the Scriptures, vol. 2, 1988, p. 691

[deelo505]

Insight on the Scriptures,vol.2,1988,p.691

[deelo505]

Lets examine the following statements from Watchtower publications:"What is here meant by the word'inspired'?It means that God,the Creator of heaven and earth,moved these men by his spirit or invisible empowering force, putting into their minds what they should write down as his word,or message,for mankind." —Good News,1976,p.14"The Source of all true prophecy is Jehovah God.He transmits it by means of his holy spirit or,occasionally,by spirit-directed angelic messengers."

[deelo505]

"Jehovah's Witnesses do not claim to be inspired prophets.They have made mistakes."

[deelo505]

Under the section, "Have not Jehovah's Witnesses made errors in their teachings?" on page 136 of the Society's Reasoning from the Scriptures book, they state:

[deelo505]

When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD,if the thing does not come about or come true,that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken.The prophet has spoken it presumptuously;you shall not be afraid of him."

[deelo505]

Deuteronomy 18:20-22 states:But the prophet who shall speak a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he shall speak in the name of other gods,that prophet shall die.And you may say in your heart,How shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?

[deelo505]

1918: "Also, in the year 1918, when God destroys the churches wholesale and the church members by millions, it shall be that any that escape shall come to the works of Pastor Russell to learn the meaning of the downfall of 'Christianity.' " —The Finished Mystery, 1917, p. 485

[deelo505]

1915: "...the 'battle of the great day of God Almighty' (Rev. 16:14), which will end in A.D. 1915, with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced." —The Time Is At Hand, 1917 edition, p. 101

[deelo505]

1915: "...the 'battle of the great day of God Almighty' (Rev. 16:14), which will end in A.D. 1915, with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced." —The Time Is At Hand, 1917 edition, p. 101

[deelo505]

Today they are know as Jehovah's Christian witnesses....Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a 'prophet' of God.

It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. What does it show?" —The Watchtower, April 1, 1972, p. 197

*1914: "..the 'battle of the great day of God Almighty'(Rev. 16:14),which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced." —The Time Is At Hand, 1889,p.101

[deelo505]

THE WATCHTOWER PROPHET:

"So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet?...This 'prophet' was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students.

[deelo505]

22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so,come, Lord Jesus.

22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

[deelo505]

REVELATIONS

22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

[deelo505]

However, the Society is inconsistent with their rule for if they were consistent, they would have to translate John 1:6 as,"there arose a man that was sent forth as a representative of a God."Since this translation wouldn't make sense,the Society picks and chooses how it wants to apply its rule in accord with its doctrine

[deelo505]

Note: The Society argues that because the definite article the doesn't appear before God in this half of the verse, that justifies their insertion of the article a in their translation..

[deelo505]

Note: The Watch Tower Society inserts the word "other" four times into this passage, in order to make it compatible with their doctrine of Christ having been created. However, in John 1:3, we read that Christ created "all things" —not all other things.

[deelo505]

Note: The Watch Tower Society inserts the word "other" four times into this passage, in order to make it compatible with their doctrine of Christ having been created. However, in John 1:3, we read that Christ created "all things" —not all other things.

[deelo505]

However, the Society is inconsistent with their "rule" for if they were consistent, they would have to translate John 1:6 as, "there arose a man that was sent forth as a representative of a God.Since this translation wouldn't make sense,the Society picks and chooses how it wants to apply its "rule" in accord with its doctrine. Interlinear Translation:Col. 1:16-17Christ created "all (things).

"New World Translation :Christ created "all [other] Things."

[deelo505]

I.Translation:John 1:1"god was the Word.

New World Translation:"the Word was a god.

The Society argues that because the definite article "the" doesn't appear before God in this half of the verse, that justifies their insertion of the article "a" in their translation.

[deelo505]

Because the Society teaches that Jesus isn't God,they teach that one should not pray to Jesus. Since prayer is a form of worship, Jesus shouldn't be prayed to unless, of course,He is God (see Exodus 23:13). As one can clearly see,since Jesus asked his followers to request things of Him in prayer, the Society had to omit the words ask Me in their translation so that this verse would be compatible with their doctrine.

[deelo505]

nwt:"I am in union with the Father and the Father is in union with me?"

being in union and being in someone is not the same

I. T:John 14:14"If ever anything you should ask me...."

nwt:If you ask anything...."

:

[deelo505]

the new world translation misreads scripture adds and removes words to prove their false doctrines.the Interlinear Translation which was produced by jehovas witnesses doesnt even translate the same as the new world translation?but they clai the both are the ''truth''?here are examples feel free jehoavhs witness to look them up:

Interlinear Translation:John 14:10"Not you are believing that I in the Father and the Father in me is?"

[frogman71]

are you the pastor in your church?

[Mekelsior]

Most excellent. Ill watch it a few more times when I get the chance. My mother is JW and Ill try and let her see who Christ is.

God Bless.

[witforjesus]

Amen! God bless you! I'll pray your mom comes to know Jesus too!

[frogman71]

a you are attacking the Jehovah, i thought you are very wealthy now to get money from your members as pator in your church

[floralauraproactive]

@Mekelsior Jesus as a name which is the same (jesus)

god is a title like say your (mother and father)

is that they real name? no it isn't, u just call (god) because it's a title, he got a real names so do u. i am happy for your mother found the truth, feel sorry to see u not there will her, she much be upset u can't see the truth.

what makes u to say that christ is god?!??! which jesus is (god) son in the beginning, do u really think god would be on the earth? god can't show himself EVER!