pt 1, Spiritual Experiences As The Basis For Belief And Commitment

[TheSkepticChristian]

@z1freerider Exactly, thats why its a personal experience, and personal evidences. You cannot prove a Real spiritual experiences in the Lab.

[transtlantic]

@TheSkepticChristian

but you can actually prove that a delusion is present in a person in a lab.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@transtlantic LoL what are you doing here? you just got in my territory. LDS would find it strange if spiritual experiences did not have physical analogues, though such analogues might be undetectable at present. Furthermore, the claim that all "spiritual experiences" are equivalent is an unproven and unwarranted assumption.

[transtlantic]

@TheSkepticChristian

LDS? is that a acronym for one of the more than 50,000 cults in existence? sorry...i can't keep up with them all.

spiritual experiences having an analogy to physical events? lol... i think you are trying to debate semantics, not reality.

"might be undetectable at present"? that means the conclusion IS they are NOT present, at the moment. ergo...nonexistent.

ofc all spiritual experiences equivalent? never said that. the matter of delusions fills entire chapters in psychiatry

[transtlantic]

@TheSkepticChristian

"my territory"?

well...i have a grasping knowledge of medicine. plus i am quite good at psychiatry. i am sure i can handle your delusionary rants.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@transtlantic there are many LDS with Phd in psychiatry, so no you won't be able to handle them. @fairldsorg we believe that the universe has always existed, but translantic dosen't believe us.

[transtlantic]

@TheSkepticChristian

what is a "LDS"? later day saints? aren't there like 5 or 6 sub-cults of that? lol

ofc i am quite able to handle them. i don't need a PhD in psychiatry to be talking about this.

i do understand the evidence that proves the universe always existed and god is nowhere to be seen attached to that fact.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@transtlantic but not us, trust me. :)

[TheSkepticChristian]

@transtlantic Cont. We believe that the universe has always existed, but not because of the science, in fact you are making an assumption, in fact you ignore that No scientific statement can be made about the universe before the Planck time.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@transtlantic I am still waiting for you to refute the infinite regress argument :)

[TheSkepticChristian]

@transtlantic Cont. ask Dr. Harry Merl specializing in psychiatry and neurology, and many other psychiatrists

[transtlantic]

@TheSkepticChristian

Harry merl? he is a retired professional.

apparently quite good family therapy. a therapy i favor.

plus...i am sure he doesn't support any kind of crap related to spiritual experiences having a meaning as evidence for the spiritual. at least not in a scientific environment,.

[pmallon64]

Do Mormon's realize that their religion does not have a monopoly on religious experiences? Catholics, Protestants, Hindus, Jews, Buddhist, Mormons, etc. all have "spiritual experiences" which are indistinguishable from one other. Are we therefore to conclude that all religions are true? That is impossible because they all make contradictory claims. The only logical conclusion is that such experiences are an innate part of human psychology and do not come from some external source.

[sandwichappy]

@pmallon64 the answer to ur first Q is YES. the answer to ur second Q is NO. good questions and they raise some important points. as u well know, since u are resiting it, this is not an original question or idea. the way u rushed in that final conclusion (which is false imo) was radically premature. just real quick, using ur words. u say the "spiritual experiences...are indistinguishable from one other" but go on to say that "they all make contradictory claims". speaking of contradiction.

[pmallon64]

@sandwichappy hmm.. I think you misread what I said. I said that the *spiritual experiences* were indistinguishable (psychologically and physiologically), but the *religions* all make contradictory claims (for ex. Christians think that the Christian God is the basis of all reality, Hindus think that Brahmin is, etc.) And followers of the different religions see their experience as validating their own religion. Same experiences, different religions. Can't all be true.

[sandwichappy]

@pmallon64 thanks for the mature response! i dont get a lot of those. i felt weird reading it...like i was just expecting u to start making personal attacks and get off the subject on some stupid shit.

i did not misread what u said. i understand ur point and the "logic" behind it. what i am saying is that the "contradictory claims" prove that not all "spiritual experiences" are genuine. <--1 reason religions argue.

Q. how can u say they are "indistinguishable" if they contradict eachother?

[pmallon64]

@sandwichappy What's clear from brainscans of people of different faiths having "spiritual experiences" is that the experience of a Hindu, a Buddhist and a Christian etc. are identical physiologically and psychologically. Now let me get this right, you are claiming that because you have the pre-existing belief that Hinduism is wrong that therefore the experience of a Hindu is somehow different from that of a Christian? see - circular logic.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@pmallon64 We LDS don't deny spiritual experiences of members of other religions. Also, LDS theology does not teach a separation of matter and spirit into totally separate categories (see DC 131:7-8. LDS would find it strange if spiritual experiences did not have physical analogues, though such analogues might be undetectable at present. Furthermore, the claim that all "spiritual experiences" are equivalent is an unproven and unwarranted assumption.

[canadianbacon007]

Does choice even exist without it's antithesis?

[RobertBoylan1987]

Ostler is awesome!!!!

[Rasurusan]

Thanks for putting this up. Bro Ostler makes me think about things in ways that probably not have ever occured to me. He is gifted and I always look forward to his insights.