Response to 'Muslim Objections to the Baha'i Faith'

[TheFurughi]

ya..it is true Muhammad is the last prophet on that cycle..but Baha'u'llah is the new prophet on this new age cycle..not under the Adam's cycle..but under Baha'i's cycle...peace

[lornelz]

From what I can tell so far in learning from the Bahai faith, it is indeed beautiful and inspired by God. My only problem with it is that as a Christian I would have to accept Mohamed as a messenger of God. I believe that the Quran is to inconsistent with the Judeo Christian line of dialogue between the creator and his children that I can't  accept as a step forward. Either Mohamed was inspired by God and the message was corrupted by those around him or it was never intended for the wole world,

[fsmtdaler]

@lornelz I had the same challenge, because the history of the Muslims was just as bad as that of Christians. I was raised on an Indian Reservation and saw it first hand. Sometimes Christians aren't really Christians and Muslims aren't following Muhammad. Also, read about King David and the tens of thousands he slew from day to day. At the the time of Muhammad's death, the Ummayyad's seized temporal power and subverted the true intent of it, much like the history of the church.

[fsmtdaler]

The Prophetic Cycle was from Adam to Muhammad. See how Allah does it. From Ahdam thru Ahmad. Makes sense. So all of these Prophets foretold the coming of the Day of Judgement, and now that the Judge has come, see how "affrighted asses fleeing from a lion." as Muhammad put it. The Jews insist Musa was the last, Christians, Isa, now Muslims, Muhammad. Yet they all intersect in 1844 AD = 1260 AH = 2300 years after Artaxerxes decree to rebuild the Temple, spoken of by Daniel, in Elam

[Beulah502]

No new prophet applies only to the prophetic age, Bahai is a new age.

[fsmtdaler]

In the Holy Quran, it states that the "proof" that Muhammad's revelation are the Words themselves. There are no other proofs. When I read the Writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah, the "proof" is in the Words themselves.

"This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future." Baha'u'llah

[MrUser51]

6. Matthew Muhammad, you made me laugh. Again, you are a rare treasure to me. But, when you were 'investigating' Baha'u'llah's teachings, from what perspective were you doing so. As a Muslim, or as someone who was seekign Truth?

[MrUser51]

5. Matthew Muhammad, oh...you do surprise me so. You are indeed a treasure, relative to having a true dialogue. Here, you've stated your 'independent search for truth'. I apologize. Why didn't you state this in the beginning? I'm simply human. I have to 'guess' who you are.

[MatthewMuhammad]

@MrUser51 I didn't mention it because I wanted to give people the chance to be courteous against someone they didn't know directly was partly on "their side."

[MatthewMuhammad]

@MrUser51 Would you like to take this discussion elsewhere? It is confusing to find these comments in random places on the page.

[MrUser51]

@MatthewMuhammad, yes. How can we do that?

[MatthewMuhammad]

@MrUser51 I'll send you a private message, and give you my name for Skype or AIM

[MrUser51]

@MatthewMuhammad I'll be waiting

[MrUser51]

@MatthewMuhammad, I've been downloading emai hoping to see your message. Are you attempting to contact me another way?

[MatthewMuhammad]

@MrUser51 I just sent you a private message to your YouTube account. Peace

[MrUser51]

4. Matthew Muhammad, while waiting, I need to address what you stated:

"I never said anywhere that I "object to the presence of the Baha'i Faith on earth." That is emotional reasoning on your part, because part of my video upset you. That is understandable. We all do it from time to time. I don't object to the presence of the Baha'i Faith on earth. It doesn't bother me."

Perhaps I did assume incorrectly. But not for "emotional" reasons. I don't understand someone not fully investigating.

[MrUser51]

2. Matthew Muhammad, I testify to the truth of "This Koran could not have been devised by any beside God..." Sura 10 - Jonah, Peace be on Him

But, I'm certain that you will admit to an inability to grasp the many meanings within this one verse. Surely you acknowledge human lowliness, in comparison to the Apostles of Allah. Their own apostles do. Thus you must also acknowledge that only They can fully explain Their Revelations. And Each successive One clarifies preceding Revelations.

[BAHAIRULES]

Point 1: The last sermon falls directly into Bahai Belif that all seemingly different religons are actually one religon and so you cannot say that Baha'u'llah brought about a new religon he has contiued the line of Prophets before him. Point 2: Yes beacuse David was not a manifestation of God he was a lesser Prophet Muhammad=Greater, Jesus=Greater, Baha'u'llah=Greater, Isiaha=lesser David=lesser, etc

[BAHAIRULES]

Point one: Muhammad Himself declared: "I am all the Prophets?" "I am Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus?" Why should Muhammad, that immortal Beauty, Who hath said: "I am the first Adam" be incapable of saying also: "I am the last Adam"? For even as He regarded Himself to be the "First of the Prophets" - that is Adam - in like manner, the "Seal of the Prophets" is also applicable unto that Divine Beauty. It is admittedly obvious that being the "First of the Prophets," He likewise is their "Seal."

[fsmtdaler]

All of the prophets from Adam (Ahdam) thru Muhammad (Ahmad) are part of what is called the "Prophetic Cycle", which foretell the Day of God, "when God will come and tell you plainly of Himself", as Jesus, the Son, said. "The Prophetic Cycle hath, verily, ended." Baha'u'llah proclaimed, and the Age of Fulfillment (of all that these Prophets foretold) has arrived. There is no contradiction. Muhammad was indeed the "Seal of the Prophets", as Baha'u'llah affirms.

[Beulah502]

This is confusing minor prophets who gtive prophseys and major prophets who bring a Book

[MatthewMuhammad]

@Beulah502 No, it really isn't. The common argument in Baha'i introductory books is that a Rasul brings a "Divine Book" of Revelation, whereas a Nabi only prophecies. This video specifically mentions the Qur'an designating certain people as Rasuls who did *not* bring a "Divine Book", and Nabis who *did* bring a "Divine Book." I don't understand how this is hard to comprehend for a lot of people, if you'll forgive my frankness.

[MrUser51]

1. Matthew Muhammad, I first want to comment on your presenting 'voice'. It is kind, patient, and learned. The logic of your approach is admirable. Every Baha'i appreciates the quality of your presentation.

However, you must be made aware of what you have in common with all others who object to the presence of the Baha'i Faith on earth. You, too, use your Holy Book to counter the 'beliefs' of others, instead of comparing Holy Book to Holy Book, sacred teaching by teaching.

[MatthewMuhammad]

@MrUser51 Thank you very much for the kind words. "However, you must be made aware of what you have in common with all others who object to the presence of the Baha'i Faith on earth." Nice try. :-) I never said anywhere that I "object to the presence of the Baha'i Faith on earth." That is emotional reasoning on your part, because part of my video upset you. That is understandable. We all do it from time to time. I don't object to the presence of the Baha'i Faith on earth. It doesn't bother me.

[MatthewMuhammad]

@MrUser51 "You, too, use your Holy Book to counter the 'beliefs' of others, instead of comparing Holy Book to Holy Book, sacred teaching by teaching." Again, nice try. :-) I don't care what other people believe. As long as they are not attacking me and my faith, I will leave people alone because everyone believes their beliefs are accurate and are smart enough to come to their own conclusions. If they want to know more about Islam, I will direct them to the Qur'an and other spiritual sources.

[MatthewMuhammad]

@MrUser51 But if I feel that some teachings of my faith are misrepresented, I will counter it with what I think is correct - just as I am sure *any* Baha'i would do, which is evident because the majority of comments on this video come from Baha'is, not Muslims. Note that I *never* said the arguments I attempted to refute came from the Baha'i scriptures, but rather from books and pamphlets written *about* the Baha'i Faith. I never said a word against Baha'i scripture or the Baha'i founders.

[MatthewMuhammad]

@MrUser51 If some people object that much to someone pointing out flaws in *fallible* people's books *about* a religion, imagine how they would react if I simply said, "Baha'u'llah is stupid" - which I would never do. I am actually surprised how much activity this video has produced. I imagined that maybe 100 people would watch this video in its lifetime.

[MrUser51]

3. Matthew Muhammad, thank you for responding so quickly. I wasn't aware you were doing so. I'll await your reply for number "2."

[MatthewMuhammad]

@MrUser51 I have read every work of Baha'u'llah translated into English, and most of 'Abdu'l-Baha's works translated into English. I admire a lot of things about the Baha'i Faith, especially the mystic writings of Baha'u'llah (The Seven Valleys, The Four Valleys, The Hidden Words, The Fire Tablet, etc.) I think people can respect each other without completely agreeing with one another, or even think that the "other" is wrong on a certain issue. This is evident in some of these exchanges.

[MatthewMuhammad]

@MrUser51 "I first want to comment on your presenting 'voice'. It is kind, patient, and learned. The logic of your approach is admirable. Every Baha'i appreciates the quality of your presentation." Again, thank you for the kind words. They did *not* fall on deaf ears.

[MatthewMuhammad]

@Beulah502 If anything, the video shows that there is more nuance in the Qur'an about what a Rasul and Nabi is, and that it is not just as simple as saying, "one only prophecies, and the other brings a Divine Book." As an other example, there is even a Baha'i prayer which specifically states that Muhammad is the "seal" of the Prophets *and* the Messengers, so the argument that he was "only the seal of the Prophets, but not Messengers" doesn't work even according to the explicit Baha'i Writings.

[MatthewMuhammad]

@Beulah502 This may seem like I am splitting hairs, but this does not matter to me in a theological sense. My motto is "live and let live" and "to me, my religion and to you, yours" (minus the connotation that my opposite is a "disbeliever." That's not for me to decide.) But it does matter in the sense that I believe this particular argument is based on incorrect information and an oversimplification about the words Nabi and Rasul.

[MatthewMuhammad]

@Beulah502 By the way, I hope you have a good Fast (if you are fasting) and a blessed Naw Ruz. And I am also rooting for your fellow Baha'is in Iran and Egypt. Let Freedom Reign!!!

[martyperson]

WE ALL LOVE SO DEARLY,,,,,,,,Praise Love

[martyperson]

Loves such a complicated web,That its hard not to get tangled in it,,When you think with your heart and not your head,,It can scar you for a life time But we all still chase it,,You see,,Thats the magical thing about it,,Because,,Next time,,Love JUST,,Might heal it,,If you love somebody Set them free,,And if they dont come back,,It wasnt meant to be,,But then,, As you walk around,,THAT,,Corner,,Love bumps into you again,,But hopefuly this time ,,You tread more carefuly,,In that,,Complicated web

[martyperson]

THE SECOND SONG IS LOVELY,,,,,,, PEACE TO THE GENTILES OF THIS PLACE

[martyperson]

what you feel and what you choose is a gift from God..Free will,is the greatest give in the manifestion of our creation, blessed unto all thinking beings of this world, we are the keepers of this place, God invested in this human race, to overcome cold hearted snakes,,,,,, Be gentile and not a reptile, for even a snake warms his heart under the Sun, GOD ISLUV AND ISLUV IS ALL THAT MATTERS ,,My evoloutinist , physicist friends. my his love for islamb cover all, who are warm at heart ........

[monjazebr]

#1 is not acceptable since is not from Quran. If this was true, there was no reason not to be mentioned like that in Quran. #2: Writing a book does not make a Nabi (Prophet) to become a Rasool (Apostle) but bringing new laws and religion does. About your last logic, a teacher can do an assistant teacher's job but an assistant teacher can not do a teacher's job. If the law says we are not going to have assistant teacher any more , it does not mean that we are not going to have teacher any more.

[Wisdombluetooth]

youtube.com/watch?v=86zDhR-t96­U

[iyadnibrahim]

[4] And We sent not a Messenger except with the language of his people, in order that he might make (the Message) clear for them. Then Allâh misleads whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.

[monjazebr]

@iyadnibrahim, This is the answer to the section " And We sent not a Messenger except with the language....... I see your first language is Arabic and you read the Holy Quran but do not understand it. Although our prophet came from Iran but Iran main religion was Islam and most people were familiar with Arabic and reading Quran. Our language has been mixed with Arabic since Arabs Attacked Iran and forced their religion in our country. We have many books in Arabics and Farsi. What is your point?

[iyadnibrahim]

Imagine God will send massager or prophet to people by different language

Like send Iranian man to Iranian nation by Arabic language most of Baha'is in the city of Bahaullah  reading books by translations not like Jesus or moss in the sale language or like Mohammed by same language

[iyadnibrahim]

I converted to Islam, and when i knew about Bahia's i study it for two years i was attending Rohy class and i read most books, al Eqan and Al Aqdas.. But i have found this all made by human coz of silly things and error by language those books written by Arabic and words is a correct when i asked about it the told me many the book copy is wrong i bought another copy it's the same ex:

جمع حد هو حدود وليس حدودات

it's no doubts that this religion made by human

[Wisdombluetooth]

@iyadnibrahim its always like that!!! the blind eye sees darkness, and the short sighted sees only the tip of his own nose and then says, the world and creation is only on the tip of my croocked nose :-)-..they eat the peels and leave the marrow..superficial they are and will always be, to be a pety example to others to sees those who oppose pay.specially the ones who got to know this Great faith but still oppose because they were in with suspicion and not an open heart.

[iyadnibrahim]

@Wisdombluetooth

this is the matter who is bline eyes? who is in darkness

who is close heart

Bahais they have only nice words al aqdas i read it like poem but i dont see fact i dont see new law for human i see book just imitating quran even by words . bahai fath made by bahaullah only , you can say that to new people but not to some one study bahai fath with hop to be right , but nothing right just another fack religion

[monjazebr]

@iyadnibrahim. I doubt you have read any Bahai book ever. I have raised in Islamic society I have forced to learn Arabic and Moslem prayer. I have read the entire Holy Quran and I have become Bahai because of that. If you can not see the truth in Holy Quran, then you are the blind one. Bahai's have so many books that you can not possiblely read all of them in your life time. We are living in the 21st century and we need a religion to guide our spritual life along with our social one.

[iyadnibrahim]

@monjazebr I Dont care about ur country iran , iam here talking about Islam not Muslim behave

about bahai i know more than u know , then what truth about quran i read it as well always do but i dont see any thing u have funny explanations about Judgment day about mohamed not last massanger if very funny how u understand it

about 21 centurey nothing change at all only tools change we have the same eyes and bran we die we sick we fight we born the earth still earth sun is still sun....

[monjazebr]

@iyadnibrahim. If this is your logic that nothing has been changed and we do not need a new religion to progress our social life. Then why did we need so many prophets and Apostle in our life time?  What is the logic behind all these stories in Holy Quran? If Mohammad was the last Apostil (Rasool), why it was mentioned as the last prophet (Nabee) in Holy Quran. If this was such an important message, why it was mentioned only ONE time in Holy Quran where as some messages mentioned repeatedly.

[monjazebr]

@iyadnibrahim. Let me educate you since you are reading the Holy Quran and do not understand the meaning of it. It took 23 years till Quran was completed. Most verses of Quran have a story behind them. The story behind "Seal of Prophets" or "Khaatam O Nabeeyin" is this: Mohammad (sws) was about to break one of the customs of Ghoraysh's tribe and get married with his cousin who was his son's wife. It is forbiden in Ghoraysh's customs to get marry with your son's wife but "Zeyd ibne Haaresey"

[monjazebr]

@iyadnibrahim. Continue from previous section: but "Zeyd ibne Haaresey" was not Mohammad's real son. He was named his son. In order to rectify the situation, God told Mohammad to tell his protesters that He is not the father of anyone and he is the Apostil of God (Rasool o Allah) and the Seal of Prophets (Khaatam o Nabeeyin). In past, it was customs that prophethood was transfered from father to son since Mohammad did not have any real son then the Perfethood was over. Read Quran like this.

[Wisdombluetooth]

@iyadnibrahim Some people said exactly what you say about Prophet Mohammed, and some said about Christe, its just rejection, but as you can see Bahai faith is growing and if it was what you said it would not have new rules and law which is not present in any other religion and people wouldnt be imprisoned for and die for.

Bahai faith is growing wether you are with or left out.

[monjazebr]

@iyadnibrahim, this is the answer to: I converted to Islam...... What was your previous religion? Do you think we are stupid to believe your story that you were going to Rohy classes. How come you are expert in Arabic Language and find errors in our books which is written in Arabic but you can not underestand the Holy Quran. You stock in the words and do not underestand the meaning behind them. I can prove the truth of our religion to you from Quran.Do you conver to Bahai? Who are you fooling

[FT86TT]

@iyadnibrahim May I know who was your tutor in the "Ruhi" class? or at least where was it held? I'm living in UAE so I know...

Plus your free to follow every religion you want...but never say a religion is fake, infact all past religions had disbelievers at first :P

[aaronlee75]

I think that a good response to Muslim objections would be two fold...one remind them of Surah 109.6 "To you your religion, and to me my religion." Also, assure them that Baha'is will defend moderate Islam to attacks from Christian fundamentalists and others.

[fewoifhiu3hfklew]

what is mysterious about bahaism? its just another organised religion, that tries to differentiate itself from others by seeming to make itself compatible with other monotheistic religions even if those religions contradict each other or have no real common view, its a really silly and asinine concept, thats been done to death over the last 2000 years.

[RonPrice9]

The Time of Fullfilment, the Great Day of God, the Kingdom of God on Earth begins with the Baha'i Messsengers or Manifestations of God, the Bab and Baha'u'llah, who's teachings instigate this new Cycle, which will last 500,000 years.

[RonPrice9]

"Nabi" refers to those who prophesied the coming of another nabi. "Rasul" is a wider term which includes nabi: those who prophesy another nabi, as well as those who reveal a "Book", and those who warn of the Great Day of God, the Time of Fullfilment. The Adamic Cycle comes to an end with Muhammad, who says He is the the last nabi.

[RonPrice9]

The confusion of the terms "nabi" and "rasul" has to do with the purpose of a Messenger of God. All brought teachings for the advancement of the civilizations of their time, some revealed scripture, some, the nabi, prophesied the coming of another Messenger after them, and all warned the people to be ready for the Great Day of God, the coming of the Kingdom of God on Earth, the time of Fullfilment, which a Promised One would instigate.

[malik911]

Then Melanthao if it is because of men´s doctrines and such barbarity occurs and not islam. Why do we need a new religion for to come and tell us to follow a new script if he agree that islam is the true faith which he has claimed in his books. Bahaulla even claim that he is the return of christ. my question is what has he bone during the period he was the christ for the humanity. did he ruled the kingdom he was promised by God on earth?

[N1maNayrizi]

hello MatthewMuhammad,

I believe you are missing the point in the Baha'i arguments. Hazrat e Baha'u'llah writes that there is no distinction between "prophets" and "messengers" or "apostles" they are all the same station. Many Muslims have put too much importance on the status of Prophet or Messenger, Baha'u'llah says these terms do not mean anything, however, there are some Baha'is who forget this principle, however you could still argue otherwise as this and other videos do.

:-)

[MatthewMuhammad]

From my response to MelanthaO... "I also don't say that this argument comes directly from the Baha'i Writings. From what I understand, the Baha'i Writings solve this dilemma by claiming that Baha'u'llah is actually the symbolic appearance "God", therefore abandoning the Messenger/Prophet paradigm."

[MatthewMuhammad]

I never said that the Baha'i Writings made these claims. This is what I have been trying to stress many times. This video is NOT about Baha'u'llah. It's about Baha'is who offer this argument that I just happen to find lacking.

[MelanthaO]

Good points. Here is my response, as an individual Baha'i. 1. I think, whatever the meanings of Rasul and Nabi might be, that it is clear the Qur'an only states there will be no more Nabis. 2. There is a reason the Qur'an is the Qur'an and the traditional sayings are not - the Qur'an is the Book of God, and as such it is guaranteed to be free from error, but not the purported sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). 3. "Seal" has been wrongly interpreted as "closure" rather than "confirmation".

[MatthewMuhammad]

Thanks for your input, MelanthaO. I will just go with a popular Baha'i argument here, not from Qur'an or hadith. The argument I have heard and read many times is that a Rasul has a "built in" station of a Nabi, but a Nabi is not necessarily a Rasul. This argument also states that more Rasuls would come after Muhammad, but no more Nabis. But if a Rasul is *also* a Nabi, then that would mean more *Nabis* would come after Muhammad, even this popular argument states that this won't occur.

[MatthewMuhammad]

even though *

[MatthewMuhammad]

I also don't say that this argument comes directly from the Baha'i Writings. From what I understand, the Baha'i Writings solve this dilemma by claiming that Baha'u'llah is actually the symbolic appearance "God", therefore abandoning the Messenger/Prophet paradigm. This argument would make more sense logically, than the "no more Nabis will come, but Rasuls will" argument"

[MelanthaO]

I agree with you about the illogic of the original argument. I think the relationship between Rasul & Nabi would be better shown as a Venn diagram than as a Euler diagram. As far as the Baha'i Writings go, I believe the main idea is that Muhammad was the final Prophet of the Adamic cycle, and the Bab the "Gate" leading to the advent of a new Prophetic cycle, beginning with Baha'u'llah. That is, the Bab was the trumpet blast announcing the Day of Judgement, which is both the End & the Beginning.

[southpark123secret]

apparently the new viD you Responded to has disabled it's own comments, the old one has people commenting but either those comments got deleted or the vid was removed by the bahia and reposts it disableing comments

[3amohom7777]

Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said, Z same things'll be faced by my ppl as z Children of Israel faced as a shoe compares with its pairing shoe to the extent zat if zere was anyone of zem 2 have approached his mother zen zere'll b in my ppl who would do zat.& z Children of Israel divided into 72 sects & my people'll divide into 73 sects, all of whom'll go to Hell except the oneThe Companions (RA) asked (him), Who are they, O Messenger of God. He said, Who follow what I am on& my Companions are on.

[Thecooldude303]

bahia faith belives islam is the truth

[hafizfalul123]

yah bt mumamad (sal) said there will be many false prohets be4 the coming of the hour !mumamad (sal) is the last rasul & last nabi !

[N1maNayrizi]

Remember, if you read other religious books, the authors/prophets who wrote those books say that they are the final prophets as well. Daniel was told by God that His book was the final book, Jesus Christ said His words and teachings would last forever, therefore if you go by this logic, Islam and Christianity are false religions and only Judaism is the true religion. This is why you must be careful when reading statements like "I am the final prophet"

[MatthewMuhammad]

That's a good point. But the "Maitreya" movement also uses this argument against the Baha'is by claiming that Baha'u'llah "didn't really mean" that the world would have to wait a full thousand years before another Manifestation would appear, and that the Baha'is are "misinterpreting" the "issue of finality." Most Baha'is, of course, will say "No, the Verse means what it says, and your guy is a false prophet." I'm only pointing that out just to show how the receiving end of such argument reacts.

[MatthewMuhammad]

I'm certainly not suggesting that the argument itself is useless. It tends to be what all of the prophets say at one time or another.

[hafizfalul123]

no where in th (bible,toraah) tht jesue,moses ect..(may peace be on them all) told tht they are th last prophet ! if u say tht they said so plz provied profe. in fact they told th coming of phophet muhammad (sal) if u can prove 2 me abt th kadiyane founder (mirzak ulam) in th quran ? can u ! if so why not ?

[hafizfalul123]

N1maNayrizi , no where in th thorah or gospel th moses r jeuse (peace be on them both) said that they ar th last prophets ! if u ar saying tht they said so plz provide referances.then i wil dedate on ur logic. infact they said abt th coming of prophet mumamad (sal) (john ch:16,12) ect...even in some places his nam (mumammad (sal) ) is mentioned in th gospel

[johnwoodallmd]

Wonderful dialogue! I look forward to hearing Baha'i responses to your comments.

[HolyN0va]

MatthewMuhammad,

I see the arguments you have presented here and I have a comment to make. (I am a Baha'i btw) It has been stated by many, even some figures of the Baha'i faith that some of the prophets of the past and messengers of the past did not necessarily bring new revelations, but came to guide the people back to the original. Just like David, Elijah, Malachi, Habbakuk etc. Just like the Apostles of Christ, and just like the 12 Imams after Muhammad. They were all promoters of religion

[cartoonhead5]

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "The Israelis used to be ruled and guided by prophets: Whenever a prophet died, another would take over his place. There will be no prophet after me, but there will be Caliphs who will increase in number."

[mavaddat]

It's really very simple logic you've presented:

Baha'is say "seal of the Prophets" implies no more Nabiyyin (prophet).

Baha'is say every Messenger (Rasul) is also a Prophet (Nabi), but not the converse.

However, this implies that a seal on Prophets is also a seal on Messengers.

It's just a straightforward contradiction.

[N1maNayrizi]

I was in Dubai recently and my cousins lived right next to 2 mosques so we heard the Azan every day :)

[N1maNayrizi]

We should have an intellectual conversation sometime, message me :)

Peace.

[MatthewMuhammad]

Sure, I'd like that. Although, I am doing a lot this summer so it might take a few days to get back to you inbetween replies.

[cartoonhead5]

this is why muhammed is seal of the prophets. According to bahai belief the manifestions of God are going to come approx every thoundsand years. Each one will be a messager with new divine law their will be no more prophets

[MatthewMuhammad]

Thanks for sharing the Baha'i teachings, and I hope you have a fruitful commemoration of the martyrdom of the Bab on July 9th. The point was getting at is that is that a Messenger has the 'station' of Prophethood 'built in' the 'station' of his Messengership. So, it would be a non-statement to say that Muhammad is the last Prophet, but another Messenger (who has Prophethood built in his station) will come after him. That would be saying Muhammad IS the last Prophet and NOT the last Prophet

[MatthewMuhammad]

But I basically understand the Baha'i interpretation of this. Baha'u'llah is viewed to be the coming of 'God', and is thus called the 'Manifestation' of God, so the terms 'Prophets' and 'Messengers' don't mean much in the Baha'i point of view. I also know that the Baha'i Faith doesn't teach that Baha'u'llah is God incarnate, or Physically God, etc.

[cartoonhead5]

No quite right bahaullah is not the only 'Manifestation' of God. So was muhammed, Jesus, Moses and Budda etc. yes bahaullah is viewed as the coming of 'God' this means (to bahais) a start of a new age. No we dont worship him. The manifestions how two differt stations human and divine. I sum this up as diffence beetween Koran (word of God) and hadith (word of man).

[N1maNayrizi]

You are probably one of the most respecatble Muslims on YouTube who discusses or looks into the Baha'i faith. I appreaciate your respect towards the Bab, Baha'u'llah and all Baha'is of the world, unlike most Muslims who know about the faith (I am not generalizing, but a lot of Muslims hate the faith, but not all of them)

Btw, the Azan (or Adhan in Arabic) you played was very beautiful

[MatthewMuhammad]

Thank you for the compliment, although I am sure there are others far more respectful than myself. Islamophobia runs deep through the YouTube veins, and I suspect that some (not all) of the hateful 'Muslim' YouTube users are actually Islamophobes posing as Muslims to make Muslims look aggressive, hateful, barbaric, etc. But people are people, so I'm not saying that there are 'no' 'real Muslims' being rude and disrespectful toward others who don't agree with them, especially in the Baha'i context

[MatthewMuhammad]

I'm glad you like the Azan. The recording is by Yusuf Islam (formerly known as 'Cat Stevens')

[cartoonhead5]

According to the Qur'an, God has sent many prophets to mankind. However, a messenger entertains a 'rank' higher than a prophet, bringing a new Sharia to the people, while prophets reinforce old ones

[dkockel]

I should also clarify that while Muhammad is a clearly a Prophet, He is likewise the seal of the prophetic cycle.

[dkockel]

As a Baha'i, I can relate to many of your comments. It also clear to me that Muhammad was the seal of the prophets, although many believe He is the seal of the Prophets; note lower case and upper case. Loving regards.

[MatthewMuhammad]

Thank you. Having many Baha'i friends, I don't say many bad things about their faith because it's sacred to them. And I'm also not in the business of refuting other religions in favor of my own. Everyone's ideas and beliefs seem fair to them. But my main problem is what Baha'i secondary literature says. Most of it is filled with numerous errors about Islam, always makes Islam look just enough barbaric so as to make Baha'i look more attractive and a better choice of a religion.

[N1maNayrizi]

I must disagree with this statement here. If one reads the writings of the Bab, Baha'u'llah, and Abdul Baha, you will find how much they extoll, glorify, and praise the character of the Prophet (saws), the Imams, and other infallible Muslims.

Peace

[MatthewMuhammad]

This is true, indeed. I would be hard pressed to find an insult toward any prophet in the Baha'i writings. Individual Baha'i articles, papers, books, interpretations are a different story, as we all have our own biases and prejudices.

[Genc85]

infallible ??

EVEN MOHAMMED SAV was not infallible

look at Sura 80

[MelanthaO]

I also must say that I have not read any Baha'i literature, even secondary, which denigrates Islam or makes it look barbaric. What I have read is literature portraying very specific instances of barbarity and the clearly barbaric conditions of many Islamic countries (this despite their being Muslim, not because of it!). Any nation truly embracing and implementing the truth of the Qur'an would be glorious, cultured & just. It is because of men's doctrines that such barbarity occurs, not Islam.

[quantumsolutions]

Wonderful job countering the arguments. May Allah (swt) bless you.

And if you find any other contradictions please post as it pains me to see Bahai using Muhammad and Qurán as justification for their perversion of theTruth.

How can anyone read The Glorious Qur'an and then read the Bahai words and not recognize the inferiority of it? It just sounds like such a pathetic imitation to me and maybe therein lies the test. Who can recognize the rhythm of God vs. the rhythm of falsehood?

Peace

[MatthewMuhammad]

Basically, what all apologists do is use double standards. They are allowed to dig deep into the context of a controversial verse or passage of their own religion, to explain it. But the person they are debating is not allowed to do the same in regards to their own faith. Example: A Baha'i apologist will often say that Islam didn't give full equality to women because of some verses in the Qur'an. They quote them as is, and don't allow for a contextual interpretation that would refute them.

[MatthewMuhammad]

But if you were to ask them why women are not allowed to serve as members of the Universal House of Justice, the supreme administrative body of the Baha'i Faith that is deemed 'infallible', they will say that this doesn't imply the inequality of women. When it comes to Islam, a few verses quoted as is is sufficient proof that Islam regards women as inferior to men. But when it comes to Baha'i Faith, everything can be explained away. So, it's hard to talk to people who operate on that level.

[MelanthaO]

Any Baha'i saying that the Islamic revelation did not teach equality of women is going against the Baha'i Writings, which state that the revelation of Muhammad taught equality of women and many other progressive principles. It is only humans who have perverted these teachings into something else. Muhammad taught the same truths as all of the Prophets of God, including unity, peace & equality (I was a practicing Muslim for several years & have nothing but respect & love for the Prophet Muhammad).

[seonf]

Going by your logic Jesus said beware of false prophets. So therefore no religion can come after Christianity.

[MatthewMuhammad]

Saying "beware of false prophets" doesn't exclude true prophets from coming. There is more ambiguity in that statement than the statement which says "No prophet or apostle will come after me, and no new faith will be born." One would have to do more mental gymnastics to reinterpret that one. That was also a minor point for my video, anyway. My main intention was not to disprove the Baha'i Faith on points of doctrine, but of correcting the argument that the other video proposed.

[MatthewMuhammad]

The other video made the argument that a Rasul brings a new revelation, and starts a new religion. I found at least seven who didn't, three of whom were 'under the law' of a previous Rasul (i.e. Moses). So, it's not as simple as that video claimed it to be. The common argument also says that a Nabi doesn't bring a revelation. But the Prophet David wrote the psalms, which are considered to be a revelation. So, there is more nuance than what the video portrayed.

[seonf]

So maybe Bahaullah just brought forth a revelation then. But how do you know Islam didnt lose its way like Judaism did and Christianity? My opinion is these religions are from God but pretty soon they are taken over by corrupt leaders who use the religions to control people. Just look at what the Muslim clerics did to the Bab. But unlike Bahais I dont think you should convert from islam. Islam is one of many paths to God.

[quantumsolutions]

Seonf, I agree with you about Islamic community losing its way. It has been infiltrated by many corrupt leaders. This is painful to me and others as well. In fact, there has been a great conspiracy that began immediately after Muhammad's (pbuh) death and Islam has been in the grips of evil men ever since. ---Matthew may find that statement a bit extreme.=))

Anyway, consider watching "The Arrivals" here at ytube. Even atheists are enjoying this eye-opening, mind-cracking series.

Peace.

[seonf]

The same thing happened with Christianity. The resurrection of the prophet Jesus wasnt mentioned in the gospel of Mark (although it was mentioned in the later ones) what happened since it was written? Paul saw the resurrected Jesus. And John was a follower of Paul.

I also agree what a shame it is Islam got hijacked. I believe the same thing happened with the Bahia faith with the national spiritual assembly. They have ruined it the way people ruined Islam.

[MelanthaO]

A "revelation", when speaking of new religious dispensations, means the revelation of a new book of laws, not just inspired poetry etc, so the Psalms of David do not actually fit this criteria. They were, in a broad sense, a revelation or inspired writing, like the writings of other prophets (such as Isaiah or Elijah) who didn't bring a new book of laws; but the Psalms did not reveal a new religion or law from God, and did not usher in a new dispensation.

[faro0485]

Baha'i?

Bahwho?

[MatthewMuhammad]

Baha'i is a religion that was founded by Mirza Husayn Ali Nuri (aka Baha'u'llah) in 19th century Persia. He was known for his humanitarianism and insight into spiritual and philosophical questions.

[faro0485]

Oh... is that the religion that controls the UN?

[MatthewMuhammad]

I wouldn't say 'control', but they have been involved with the U.N. since the beginning, and have a "non-member" consultation seat or something to that affect. I don't know what that means, personally.

[seonf]

Muslims have way more control over the UN. The UN recently passed a facist law that made criticising Islam ilegal. You don't see any Bahai's passing such laws now do you?

[MatthewMuhammad]

No, and I don't agree with that law.

[seonf]

Wow I just assumed every Muslim did I didn't realise there was some like you who didn't. But the Bahai faith is just a small minority. Islam and Christianity have way more power then it does.