5/15/09 Broadcast "The Pre-tribulation Rapture Hoax Has Lulled Christians to Sleep"

[q1w2e3r467]

Jesus, perfect & holy, God's only son had to suffer to the death for us, why would a few North American sinners be spared? Christians are dying around the world already and always have been. Get close to God (not your church, TV church, or minister), pray yourself, get spiritually tough, you are about to suffer and be deceived by puppets of the devil. They want your heart to wax cold, when you think you've been left behind and God has betrayed you. He suffered for us, we will suffer for him.

[dandyd032000]

"Men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of evil; having a form of Godliness but denying it's power."

[Avegas77]

This guys tells the Truth. I can disprove every point from Pre- Trib Theology.

Pre- Wrath, Imminent return, 70th week, Isreal vs the church etc etc.

In the next few months I will organize all my notes and put it online, Im not interested in going back and forth on my comment at this time just to throw a word in for the due above.

Here is a nugget for all the pre- tribers google Left Behind & Satanic Holidays and you will find all the production/release dates line up with the Major Holidays

[jaybencali]

amen my brother you are telling absolute truth all of jesus's followers endured persecution and exile but us americans tend to be arrogant that we are above that even if the son of man endured it we still think were above that lol! It was the scoffield doctrine that introduced that belief.the word " rapture" isnt in the bible> Keep preaching and teaching the truth may the creator continue to use u one love!

[RANJO517]

Read 1Thes 4:16-17 >> Before the Tribulation

[zobcity01]

throw in the book "1988" & 1989 for good measure. You still have No answer for verses posted shows your pretrib philosophy is as heretical as ever regardless of many regurgitations. Israel has been replaced it seems you think.God takes some yet leaves others believers huh. Got biblical evidence believers escape persecutions? 600 years by the cathlic inquisitions, N Korea now, Pakistan,Lebanon few yrs ago, Egypt now, etc etc etc. HUH. Not sure what history you follow.

[rossdaboss1959]

I feel so sorry for u. It would have been better to not say nothing if u don't understand, than to put out lies and cause a lot of people to miss the rapture of the church. What will u tell everybody after the rapture? U better study and pray to God to open your eyes to the truth. Acts 2:38. Have u received the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues yet? A supernatural experience? Understand the different between the church and Israel.

[zobcity01]

Isa 53: 10-11, 2 Peter 3:10, Isa 64:1-6, Ps 50:1-3, Ps 68 :1-3, 2 Thess 1:8-9, 2:8-9, Eph 1:10, Hebrewa 9:29 all show what happens the very moment Yeshua appears. Planet earth incinerates, very simple, very catastrophic, very permanent. No pretrib ruptures of any kind. He shows up, then earth lights up. Simple!

Have a good day, you much to look forward to.

[rossdaboss1959]

@zobcity01 Let's see if u still feel that way after the rapture of the church. Acts 2:38. There is a different in the church and National Israel. What u are reading is about the second coming and what's going to happen to Israel and all unbelievers that get left behind. Believe what u will, but it won't stop God's plan. Have u received the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues yet?

[Musicman81Indy]

PRAISE GOD BROTHER, Thank you for bringing out the truth. For those who are not convinced yet, if he pre trib rapture was true, then Jesus would have taught about TWO 2nd comings instead of one. But he only taught us about ONE.

[Hooverdarnit]

Every single thing this guy said is absolutely correct. The Sackcloth Witnesses are called "witnesses" not persons. In the final days, The Two Sackcloth Witnesses will be the only two witnesses to The True Living God. One witness is Spiritual Israel (The Olive Tree) and the other witness is The Faithful in Christ (The Lamp Stand.)

We are The Woman in The Wilderness. Who else will proclaim the Gospel to the ends of the Earth?

There is no secret Pre Tribulation Rapture.

[S0LDIERx0FxG0D]

The rapture is in the old testament...how can this guy say this crap

[rossdaboss1959]

@S0LDIERx0FxG0D U are right and don't let anybody fool u. Some are being misled and turning from the truth. Let nobody take away your blessed hope. Jesus is coming for his church. He is not a man that he should lie. Hold on, it won't be long.

[Noffy1111]

Ok, now how many scriptures altogether tell us that?

[Noffy1111]

How can we Christians still be on earth if we are not to suffer His wrath?

[MSMPOKEY]

@Noffy1111 Where does the Bible say we must be taken off of the earth to be protected from His wrath? Where does it say we cannot be on earth and be protected from wrath? Was Noah on earth and protected from the wrath? Was the Israelites on earth in Eqypt and protected from wrath? Where does 1 Thess. 4 say that Jesus gathers us? It says He descends and we go up, it does not describe what happens to cause us to go up.

[Noffy1111]

@MSMPOKEY

Each case you have sited is not the CHURCH. Enoch was raptured before the flood. During the tribulation the anti christ will have the power to make war against the saints. You can't have it both ways. Either they are protected or they are not !!

The church will already be gone prior to the tribulation.

[MSMPOKEY]

@Noffy1111 First you say they are not the church, then you site Enoch...interesting.  Enoch was "raptured" 669 years before the flood. Are you saying we are raptured 669 years before the tribulation? The Bible never says Enoch was taken to avoid the wrath of the flood. If that is the case why was Noah not "raptured" even though he walked with God too.

[MSMPOKEY]

@Noffy1111 There is a difference between facing God's wrath and Satan's wrath. The antichrists war on the saints is not God's wrath but Satans. Persecution from the enemy is happening right now in China, and most countries in the world. Are these Christians under Gods wrath because they are killed for their faith. NO. The same goes for the tribulation. The Israelites in Egypt were persecuted by Pharaoh but protected from the plagues (Gods wrath).

[Noffy1111]

@MSMPOKEY

Read Rev 13:7-10 Which says the anti christ will be given power to make war against the saints and to overcome all the world.

You can't have it both ways. Either you are protected or you are not which is it? Rev 13:7-10 tells you which it is.

I see nowhere in scripture where satan is breaking the seals. It is the Lamb slain since before the foundation of the world that is setting free the anti christ. It is the day of the Lords wrath and not the day of satans wrath.

[MSMPOKEY]

@Noffy1111 Rev. 13 tells us that the antichrist wages war on the saints. Rev. 12:17 tells us that this is because of Satan's wrath. The antichrist is released at the 1st seal, this is before the wrath of God begins at the 6th seal. Seals 1-5 are not God's wrath, but rather God removing His hands and letting men have the effects of their sin. So the antichrist and his wrath is not God's wrath according to Rev. 12:17. You have to take it for what is says, not what you want it to say.

[Noffy1111]

@MSMPOKEY

It is Christ breaking the seals not the anti christ. The sixth seal is broken by Christ just as the first five are. Take note when the sixth seal is broken it is still refereed to as "THE GREAT DAY"

One week of years = seven years. Satan and his wrath are loosed by God as a tool of God, a part of His wrath. It is all Gods wrath.

[MSMPOKEY]

@Noffy1111 Jesus opening the first 5 seals is showing He is in control, but it never is said to be His wrath. God setting the events in motion is not the same as saying it is His wrath. He allows for Christians in China to suffer and die under persecution today does that mean that they are under His wrath because He allows it to happen. No. His wrath does not start until seal 6. The first 5 are not His wrath even though He is opening them.

[MSMPOKEY]

@Noffy1111 Rev. 11:18 says that the wrath does not actually come until the 7th trumpet (end of trib), which is a time when the dead are judged and Christians are rewarded (rapture) and the wicked are destroyed (after trib). So the 7th trumpet is when the wrath of God comes, the Day of the Lord. The 6th seal is sinners SAYING it must be Gods wrath because of the pain so far, not realizing that the true wrath is not there yet, it gets worse.

[MSMPOKEY]

@Noffy1111 Where does the Bible say the antichrist is a tool of Gods wrath? According to this belief, the tribulation saints would be a target of Gods wrath. How can this be biblical? So God uses the antichrist to pour out Gods wrath on people who love God? So God avenges the blood of the 5th seal martyrs on Himself because it was His wrath on them that caused their death? What about Rev. 7. Were they under Gods wrath? Your belief falls apart when compared to scripture.

[Noffy1111]

@MSMPOKEY

When the rapture happens and the bride is taken all that are left behind will be found in disbelief. Then Christ breaks the seals freeing the anti christ and so on. Throughout this time frame people will become believers as evidenced by the proclaiming of the gospel by the two witnesses, the 144,000 and the angels.

Believers will be free from the direct wrath of God but will have to face the anti christ whom will have his short span of power on this earth.

[MSMPOKEY]

@Noffy1111 Again, where does the Bible say the 144,000 preach the gospel? It doesn't. So if belivers are free from the direct wrath of God, then why can't we be on earth and be free from this wrath as well. Why do you have to assume that we must be in Heaven to be free from it. Is God not powerful enough to keep us protected on earth. Where is one single verse that says we must go to Heaven to be protected?

[Noffy1111]

@MSMPOKEY

It does not explicitly say they preach the gospel. But what is said is that they are His servants and what is the duty of every believer on earth? To spread the good news. You are commanded to do it as well as am I. They will do so as well.

Are you telling me that since the word trinity is not in the bible that it is a false teaching? Of course not and I am not saying you are. The two witnesses will be proclaiming the gospel until killed. Angels will be

[MSMPOKEY]

@Noffy1111 I agree that the angels and witnesses will. But to say that the 144,000 are is merely assumption and I like to stick with what scripture says. They may be, but I will not say they are if scripture doesn't. The trinity is described in scripture even if the word is not used, but the 144,000 are never described as preaching. But that is irrelevant, even if they are, it does not prove that we are raptured pre-trib. You still have all of the other problems to answer..

[Noffy1111]

@MSMPOKEY

Tell me, how many days will go by after the abomination of desolation before Christs 2nd coming?

[MSMPOKEY]

@Noffy1111 1260 days

[Noffy1111]

@MSMPOKEY

Ok let me ask you this. If we as Christians can agree that, if we are still here to see the abomination of desolation, then we know that 1260 days later Christ will appear in the clouds at His 2nd coming. we agree on this correct?

[MSMPOKEY]

@Noffy1111 yes we agree on this

[Noffy1111]

@MSMPOKEY

Ok then, we agree that if there is no pre trib rapture we know that after the abomination of desolation that we know 1260 days after Christ will come. We would know as believers that there is an exact day of His arrival.

Ok, now tell me what do we do with these verses Matthew 24:42-46,,, Matthew 25:13,,, Acts 1:7,,, Mark 13:33-37,,, 1 Thess 1:10,,, 1 Thess 5:6,,, Titus 2:13

Here are verses telling us to watch and be ready. Why would we do that if we know the exact He arrives?

[MSMPOKEY]

@Noffy1111 My response will take a few reponses because I can only have so many words per response. They are coming.

[MSMPOKEY]

@Noffy1111 Matt 24 says of THAT day and hour we do not know. What day and hour? The only day mentioned in context is the day of His coming immediately after the tribulation. He did not just switch topics without telling His audience just to confuse them. He is still speaking of the same day. So the day no one knows is talking about the day of His coming after the tribulation, not a secret day 7 years before that. We must interpret scripture in context, not based on our own ideas.

[Noffy1111]

@MSMPOKEY It cannot be the 2nd coming. We both just agreed that we know that His second coming will happen 1260 days after the abomination of desolation. This is a known quantity. That is an exact day 1260 after the Abomination of desolation. There is no way around this. It is an exact day.

[MSMPOKEY]

@Noffy1111 Matt 25:13 does not say the day CANNOT BE known. It says YOU DO NOT KNOW. Do not know is present tense. It means right now you do not know the day. It does not say it cannot be known in the future. No verse in the Bible says No One WILL EVER KNOW the day. That is not what it says. It says no one knows present tense. But like when people saw the fig tree begin to bloom they knew summer was near, we will know when we see the abomination of desolation.

[Noffy1111]

@MSMPOKEY That is a disingenuous answer. We know right now that His return will be known on an exact day.

He is telling His church however that we are to be watchful because we don't know the day or hour of His arrival.

These are two mutually exclusive groupings of verses. One group says an exact day and the other says to be watchful.

[MSMPOKEY]

@Noffy1111 Are you saying you know the day of the second coming? I challenge you to tell me that day. What is the date? No one in this world right now can tell me that date. Why? I thought it was a known day? That is the point. No one knows the day. But after the abomination of desolation we will know. But right now it is an unknown day. The unknown day fits with the post-trib coming, unless of course you can tell me the date that Jesus will come at the end of the tribulation.

[MSMPOKEY]

@Noffy1111 And dont just say the 1260th day after the abomination of desolation, that is not knowing the day or hour. I know that 40 weeks after my wife gets pregnant will be the due date for our baby, but I do not know what day that will be until she gets pregnant. That is my point. Knowing how many days there will be after the abomination of desolation is not the same as you knowing the day now. It is still an unknown day and hour.

[MSMPOKEY]

@Noffy1111 We watch, not for some event that we cannot know anyway and will sneak up on us, otherwise what would be the point of watching? We actually watch to see the signs (fig tree blooming) to know the day.

[Noffy1111]

@MSMPOKEY Do you understand that you are making no sense? we know that 1260 days after the Abomination of desolation that Christ will return. So according to you on 1261 we wont know the exact day? Of course they will.

But anyway we ate done here. We wont agree and you wont learn anything until you see it happen with your own eyes.

[MSMPOKEY]

@Noffy1111 We can learn things by scripture before it happens, and I said nothing about the 1261 day. I said we do not know now, but after the abomination of desolation we will know. And we are watching for the signs that lead up to the coming of Christ.  How does that not make sense?

[MSMPOKEY]

@Noffy1111 What I was saying is that you don't know the day now. You may know that it is 1260 days after the abomination of desolation, but you cannot tell me the date of His return right now can you? Therefore the verse is correct in saying no one knows the day or hour. But when we see the abomination of desolation we will know the exact day of His return.

[Vegeto69X]

@MSMPOKEY Monday. October 3, 2016! Wait and see.

[MSMPOKEY]

@Noffy1111 The command to watch is absolutely valid. But the Luke 21:28 shows us that we are watching for "all these things" to begin to happen.....what things? The events of the tribulation, including the abomination of desolation. The parable of the fig tree shows us that we watch for the signs, and the signs will tell us the time of Jesus' return. Watching is irrelevant for pre-trib because there is nothing to watch for, it happens by surprise. How do you watch for a sneak attack?

[Noffy1111]

@MSMPOKEY WRONG, the signs we are to look for are the clues letting us know what is about to happen. Luke 21:34-36 we are to not to worry about the troubles of the world so THAT DAY take us unaware. We are pray to ESCAPE these things and to STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

What are we escaping? THAT DAY is what we are escaping. THE RAPTURE will bring us before the Son of man

[MSMPOKEY]

@Noffy1111 Luke 21:34-36 THAT DAY speaks of what day? The day Jesus just told them about in verse 27, His coming after the tribulation.  He says that day will be a snare to those who dwell on the earth. So what are we praying to escape in context of that day, all the events that are a snare to sinners at the second coming (Isaiah 63:1-4, Rev. 19:15). You change it from escaping that day, which is the context, to escaping a 7 year period. You rip the verse out of context.

[MSMPOKEY]

@Noffy1111 1 Thess. 5 makes this clear. Verse 2 says that the Day of the Lord comes as a thief. Verse 3 makes it clear that it is to them (sinner) that it comes like a thief, but verse 4 tells us that it will not come as a thief in the night to Christians, because we are not in darkness. So it is unknown to sinners, but know to Christians.

[Noffy1111]

@MSMPOKEY Correct and that's why the church now expects the rapture because if you read down further we are not meant for the wrath of the Lord but to expect His salvation. We are the redeemed and in revelation while the tribulation is going on the redeemed are in heaven.

[MSMPOKEY]

@Noffy1111 Where does the book of Revelation say that the entire church is in Heaven?  It doesn't.

[Noffy1111]

@MSMPOKEY

We now have two sets of verses telling us two different things. One group says He will be here on an exact day.

And, we have another group of verses telling us to watch, be ready, because we do not know the hour of His arrival.

Do you know how to use a Hebraic method of interpretation to resolve this issue?

[MSMPOKEY]

@Noffy1111 No verse says that the entire 7 year tribulation is the day of the Lord's wrath. But Joel 2 tells us that the day of the Lord cannot start until AFTER the sun stops shining and the moon becomes blood at the 6th seal, so it cannot be until after that. Isaiah 2:11 says that the Lord ALONE will be exalted in that day, so the day of the Lord cannot be until after the tribulation when the antichrist is no longer exalted as god. Your idea is not supported by scripture.

[MSMPOKEY]

@Noffy1111 You still did not answer the problem with the fact that there are people under the blood on earth during the tribulation. Either they are raptured the moment they get saved, they are saved by something other than the blood, they are not protected from the wrath and God is a liar, or they are protected from God's wrath on earth, which means that we can be too. So which is it?

[Noffy1111]

@MSMPOKEY

The rapture happens. Then all throughout the tribulation period people will become believers. The two witnesses, the 144,000 sealed and protected Hebrew virgins, and then the two angels will all be proclaiming the gospel.

Just because the church will be removed prior to the tribulation does not mean that no one else will become believers. The Holy Spirit will still be working.

If a person takes the mark of the beast then they will not be saved EVER.

[MSMPOKEY]

@Noffy1111 Where does the Bible say the 144,000 preach the gospel? What about the command to the Church to preach the gospel? Is that command revoked and given to Jews and angels 7 years before the end? Where is that stated in scripture? People will get saved in the tribulation, but how could they be here during the tribulation if they are not appointed to God's wrath?

[MSMPOKEY]

@Noffy1111 The promise to be protected from wrath is to those under his blood. Are the saints in the tribulation saved by his blood, if they are then how are they there, if they are not under the blood then you preach another gospel, if they are but not protected from wrath you make God a liar, if they are on earth but protected from his wrath, then we can be too.

[Noffy1111]

Matt 24: 29-31 is Christs second coming to earth where His feet will actually touch down on this earth.

Take note of the fact that it is the angels gathering the elect in Matt 24:31

In 1 Thess 4:17 it is Christ Himself doing the gathering.

[skydiver626]

God bless brother. It makes me glad to see a preacher whose not afraid to preach the truth. Many preachers conform to their congregations and become people pleasers. This truth must be shouted from the roof tops from here on out because time is extremely short now.

[Lacybunny]

Cont.....There is so much I would like to say about my beliefs to why I don't believe in pre-trib doctrine. I wish these comment boxes didn't have a limit of character counts!

[Lacybunny]

In many of your sermon videos on your channel (I haven't watched them all) I do not agree with with alot of what you preach. But I have to say we both agree on this topic. I do not believe in pre-trib doctrine though I was raised in a church that does. That is why I do not go to denominational churches. I am non-denominational. In my Bible studies, I do believe we will go thru the 1st half of the tribulation but we will not go thru the last half.

[FateEternal]

I think one viewpoint is that within a 7-year period, the first half will seem to be going well and the second 3 1/2-year period is the tribulation period.

Is that what you're referring to?

[Lacybunny]

Tribulation means distress & suffering so I wouldn't say the 1st half will seem to be going well. The book of Revelation, Mark, Luke, Romans & Matthew 24 tells us of the many sufferings we will endure...wars, persecution, great earthquakes, floods, etc. Check out U.S. Geological Survey of many earthquakes each day that we don't know about. Interesting. The last half will be great tribulation where God pours out his wrath described in the book of Revelation. I need to make a video about this.

[DJTonyAllen]

lol im so glad SOMEONE knows cameron and comfort are freemasons

[notleftbehind]

You have proof?

[DJTonyAllen]

Research it

[notleftbehind]

Your making the claims than you should have proof to back it up.

[DJTonyAllen]

I already realize it, you're the one who doesn't and I told you to Research, stop being lazy, I could care less if you don't know truth, it doesn't matter to me if you believe lies

[notleftbehind]

LOL stop being over dramatic ,,, oh i wont know the truth so dramatic. Dude I been researching this topic for the past 10 years. Im sure i can show you a thing or two and no im not going to research these characters. I got better things to do with my time. Newsflash rookie the majority of people are masons including the top ministers it just depends to what degree.

[SonofJaphet]

@notleftbehind Its not in the Bible the pre Trib its a heresy .The rapture will occur when Jesus comes back to Earth after the Trib

[notleftbehind]

dude what the heck your talking about that was 4 months ago. I dont even know what your reffering to. Anyways that topic is a never ending topic. But the God you serve sure is a great one to know it doesnt matter to him how faithfull you live because you will still go through his wrath and punishment along with the wicked and it doesnt make much sense that after the tribulation he would rapture you so you come back to earth right away. Doesnt make much sense to me. Whatever floats your boat.

[poolboy22v]

Amen

[Kloudes]

3:25

Is Jesus going to gather the Christians from "the uttermost part of Heaven" or is He going to take the elect there?

I know He will gather those on earth, just wondering what the "uttermost part fo Heaven" means.

[wauft]

dead astronauts? seems from the Bible and each is higher than the other. 1st Heaven: the firmament, where the birds fly, the atmosphere. 2: Heaven: outer space/ "universe." 3rd Heaven: the Kingdom of God, where He is and his throne ect.

Dead astronauts seem plausible.

[wauft]

Maybe it means those that are dead in Christ. People who are saved and died here on earth but before they received their glorified bodies.

[Kloudes]

Oh.

Lol, I won't pretend to know a lot of the Bible.

Those both seem very believable, though.

For a minute it sounded like all the Christians were being gathered together: all the ones on earth and all the ones in Heaven.