Carthage had an actual jail but they moved them to another room because they never caused trouble, and they were allowed to have guns for their own protection, both Joseph and his brother Hyrum had pistols.
The Leader-dogs of the Mormon Hierarchy (an "Old World Religion", according to Smith, Jr. and Young) are--first and foremost--into whitewashing & covering up: they did such a "good job" of creating a cover story, (~155 years ago), that it has had to take a movie, on the subject, for modern-day Mormon Leader-dogs to be forced out into the open and fess up.
Expediency and "image" is EVERYTHING, to Mormon Top Brass.
And, up pops dufus L. Tom Perry & puts copious amounts of lipstick, on that pig!
i remember being taught that joseph smith was in carthage jail and i have seen pictures of that jail and it looked pretty cozy for a jail...... A little too cozy for joseph smith though. Did they allow prisoners to have guns back then? Lol
Im in Missouri born and raised we do hate mormons they all needed to be curicified and killed like the idot empty headed old leader the only bad thing was he harldy suffered at all
As far as the idea of the church trying to create the noble death of Joseph Smith, you have to take into account that if they were trying to cover up the fact that he did use a gun then why is it on display at the church history museum in SLC? and it is clearly labeled as the gun he used in trying to escape. Even if you go to Carthage Jail where it took place an entire account both pro and con are given. one cannot simply watch a movie and form a judgment based on its content. it requires study.
No, they didn't leave the gun out on purpose. I am LDS and YES, I know he has a gun. I live in the UK and I am aware the gun were mentioned in Ensign, and also at tyhe museum in Salt Lake. So, nothing to hide really. If there's something missing in the film, I wouldn't quit church because of a movie nitpick. It's just A MOVIE.
If the Mormons do not like how thier history is portrayed in the media, then I challenge them to make thier own movie, sort of like Passion of the Christ. If they are right, then why the concern or secrecy?
It's interesting that Dean Cain played Joseph Smith. The LDS church portrays him as blonde haired and blue eyed. And isn't *Cain* the cursed one in the Old Testament. Very fitting for the part of Joseph ;)
It makes me sick what that mob did to Joseph Smith and his brother. This is a total black mark in the history of Illinois. I'm not a Mormon - I'm certain Mr. Smith was no saint (nor am I nor any of us). BUT his bloody murder repulses me, and no one was held accountable. My sympathy lies with the Mormons. Mob rule should have been controlled by the then Illinois Gov Ford. Oddly Ford's own sons were lynched years later.
Accept what the church did in the past and get over it, you are only saying this cause you are mormon. They practice poligamy and now they frown upon it, accept it.
Joseph was armed with a small pepper-box revolver left by Cyrus Wheelock. He fired said revolver three times, and had the other three misfire. The shots injured three men, who survived. He then attempted to jump from the balcony. One the balcony, the mob shot him three times.
Those are the facts. There is a lot of conjecture surrounding events before and since, but of that we can be certain.
it's not controversial at all. You just think it is, because you don't know how many time Joseph Smith was inprisoned wrongfully! You also don't read into the whole context of the matter you just read into what you think will help you prove your points.
In the last second of this clip it shows Joseph Smith pointing a gun at those that where trying to kill him. He didn't have a gun. How ridiculous. He was in jail when he was shot. They don't let prisoners have a guns.
I just did a little digging into LDS Church history. And you are right. He did have a gun, possibly 2 guns, a 6 shooter and maybe a Derringer. It appears that he only used the one and only fired 3 times. He wounded 3 attackers, 2 of which later died.
The gun was slipped to him by a vistor just before the mob rushed into the jail.
All I have to say about that is good for him. I am glad he got a few of those @#$~&!)'s before they got him.
Even further reading, the 3 men that Joseph Smith shot none of them died (bummer!). They lived long enough to to be named as co-conspirators in the trial of the murder of Joseph Smith. One of the 3 shot through the door and killed Joseph's brother Hyrum before they broke into the jail cell.
Local residents bought these 3 men new suits as a reward for their part in the murder of Joseph Smith.
Not excusing the mob mentality, but Smith had ripped off a lot of people with his bank scheme.
He was not killed for his religious beliefs. Many people make the mistake of thinking he was killed for starting the LDS faith, but there were only a few members at the time, not the millions they have today.
It was revenge for how Smith started a bank and ripped people off. Plain and simple. But church members were clever enough to tell the story over and over about how he died for his religion.
In order to hide something you have to have something to hide.
He was NOT killed because of some made up notion of a banking scheme. What lead to his death was the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor, a newspaper published in Nauvoo. That was perhaps the straw that broke the camel's back. Joseph was aquitted of any charges regarding that but Gov Ford was still concerned over mounting tension issued a writ for his arrest over the same charge.
He was outgunned. In official LDS church videos, Smith has no gun and the actor does not say "Oh, Lord my God" which was the Masonic distress signal that Smith uttered, hoping somebody in the mob would be a mason and stop the rest of the mob.
Smith did not go out like a sheep to the slaughter, he went out in a gun fight.
I would have liked this explanation better when I was a Mormon.
But the LDS church hides its history, and when people study, they find out and leave.
If all you research is done by watching Church videos then I could see why you would think the Church is hiding stuff. But it only takes opening a book or 2 to find out all of the facts.
When I was questioned in my previous posts about Joseph Smith having a gun, it did not take very long to find out that he did. Not very well hidden, I would say.
If an angry armed mob attacked you what would you do? It is no surprise at all that he used a Masonic distress signal, because he was a Mason.
Watch the official LDS version. Smith's gun and Masonic distress call are conveniently missing. Mormons are told (I was a Mormon for ~40 years) to avoid anything that is not approved. So, yes, it is possible to be a Mormon and not know Mormon history.
Official church teachings say that Smith went out as a sheep to the slaughter. Church manuals forget to mention the gun. It makes it look less like persecution and more like a gun battle that he simply lost.
D&C 135:4 Joseph said that he was going like a lamb to the slaughter. That is where the Church gets that from.
The fact that certain elements are left out of Church movies is irrelevent. Very irrelevent. I've been a member of the Church for 51 years (ie all my life). Frankly I am shocked that you would leave the Church because what's not in a movie.
BTW the Masonic distress signal is "Oh Lord My God, have mercy on the widows son." It is possible that he was just using an expression.
the gun is a "certain element" element that is important. They keep it out, so he can look more noble. There is nothing wrong with pulling guns on an angry mob that wants to kill you, so they should keep it in. However, Smith must be above the average man.
People leave the church because it makes them wonder what else they are hiding
Joseph Smith was chosen as a Prophet not as Superman.
So what if he had a gun at Carthage Jail. So what it that fact was not mentioned in a Church movie.
Those people who wonder what else is being "hidden" should get off their big fat rear ends and do a little research. It's not hard to find out information on Smith.
There are lots of Church movies about Smith that don't mention that he almost lost his leg when he was a boy.
I do read books about this man. Let me give you an example of something the church never mentiond. He translated the plates using a top hat with the stones inside the hat.
The church fails to mention these things. If they do mention them, it is very difficult to find.
I take issue with the fact that the church seeks to make him out to be near perfect. The leg is mentioned in some church publications, but the hat is mentioned once. The gun is never mentioned.
The July 1993 Ensign (the official monthly publication of the LDS Church) an article by Russell M. Nelson, called "A Treasured Testament" that talks in detail of the process of interpreting the B of M text with a hat.
The gun is mentioned in the "History of the Church" by B. H. Roberts.
They are not often mentioned because it's just not that important. The Church is more interested in the product of the translation than the process. The gun is very insignificant to me anyway.
It took much more than that. I defended Mormonism for years, and it just does not stand up to scrutiny. All answers depend on avoidance and obfuscation.
Also, the gun was denied by official church sources for decades until it could no longer be denied. Now it's "so what"? That's called minimization.
So Alba, are you an apologist? You have doubts, don't you? That's why you try to find answers, but they are not satisfying - even to you?
Good luck. Leaving is not easy. But it's worth it.
If the Church denied the gun until recently then why was it in B.H. Robert's "History of the Church" which has been around since nearly the beginning? It was never hidden, it it was it would have never been published anywhere.
If I am an apologist it is all on my own. I have no connection with the Church in any capacity other than an ordinary member.
Any doubts or questions I have are in regards to everything including the Church. It is natural to be inquistive and to re-examine your positions.
To be totally honest, of everything I have read or been told about the Church, NOTHING has ever been presented to me that I could not either debunk or to find the logical flaws. After awhile I just quit reading that stuff because it just irritated me that people could still bring up the same lame arguements.
The mormons involved in this massacre were living in a state of paranoia. Read the following historical events and you may get a better understanding of why they did what they did. The Haun's Mill massacre, the Battle of Crooked River, the Missouri extermination order, the murder of Joseph Smith, History of Nauvoo Illinois etc.
Once again an over dramatized, sensationalized movie flops big time at the box office. It's funny how some idiots feel they can actually learn history by watching anything produced in Hollyweird. sad sad sad
rustymente, I just LOVE your undying propensity to CAPITALIZE RANDOM WORDS to add to the effect of SHOCKING PEOPLE just like WILLIAM RANDOLPH HEARST. Or, do you capitalize CERTAIN THINGS because you THINK that since we are STUPID ENOUGH to listen to YOU, maybe we're too stupid to GET THE POINT?
nauvoochristian--You watched that POS film four times? That horrible distortion of history that painted Mormons in the same light as WWII propaganda films painted the Nazis and the Japanese in? The year's first honest-to-goodness exploitation film?
With your attitude towards Mormons, where do you get the nerve to call yourself a Christian?
Really, Really, Really? You need to come to Nauvoo and visit the different LDS book stores...they have several photos of Joesph Smith and none are the same!
Come in July-August for the Nauvoo Pageant, Joesph has dark hair and dark eyes..OOPS!
No, YOU don't know anything. Who the hell are you to go judging people? Why do you attack the Mormons constantly like this? The Mormons were treated more brutally than any other religious group in the history of the United States BEFORE they left for Utah. They had received information from reliable sources that a battalion was coming from the U.S. Army to subjugate them, and after Mountain Meadows, such an army DID come. Read your history.
Mormons had a hard time in Missouri. I do not excuse what was done at Hauns Mill-- but a good part of what happened was in response to the of the reckless actions of the LDS leaders. That's why they called it the Missouri WAR. Mormon rhetoric (July 4 and Salt Sermons) was inflammatory at best. Mormons fired on state militia etc.
The movie seems one-sided to me too. I am not a mormon but from what I know they were massacred before they went west. The frontier was a hard place where the law of the jungle came before the law of the land. Who are we to condemn?
You have the right to believe whatever you want, just don't presume to foist it on everybody else. That's the basic problem with thinking that yours is the "one true faith". Joseph Smith is a proven fraud. His tall tales are not even good science fiction. He claimed that Israelites came to the new world, lived here for 1000 years, had horses and steel weapons and huge cities. None of this is true, according to all credible scientists. He messed up the details of his fairy tale.
I agree. I have visited the Carthage jail historical site and Mormon tour guides explained all the details, (including Joseph firing a gun in order to try and protect himself and those with him).
As for September Dawn, the evidence that Brigham Young ordered the massacre or even knew about it is non-existent. Supposedly BY knew everything that happened in the Utah territory? Yeah ... right. It was a six day ride to Mountain Meadows.
The mormons were run out and killed in many other states and were fearing for their lives. I do not agree with what the mormon men did, but they were all punished in some way. The men involved were excommunicated from the church. Brigham Young was in no way involved in the attacks. If you want to know what the mormon church really believes then you should visit the official web site!
Hooray! Visit the official website and tithe 10% of your worldly goods to the Mormons! Woop-de-doo! In return you will not have premarital sex, drink coffee, tea, or alchohol, and you will be married to your spouse for all eternity! Yahoo! One special prize- in the afterlife, you will be a god of your own special planet but you'll have to get busy with your wife to populate the planet with slaves. More than one wife is okay. No blacks allowed. That is all. Verily.
Excommunicated???!!!??? And only after federal involvement/pressure. Yes, I would agree that this would a fair penalty for cowardly murder of women and children.
Brigham Young wrote to the Bishop saying not to fight, but the letter arrived Sept. 13. Joseph Smith did not kill anyone! He had a gun which the guard gave him; he fired 6 shots only three discharged but killed no one. He was trying to protect himself and his friends. I understand this movie is going to make false claims about the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints, but this movie does not represent history accurately.
Joseph Smith shot and killed 2 people, that's a fact. I think a lot of people will see this movie and then go and read up on the real story and be amazed that anyone still follows this cult.
Have you ever heard of another massacre call the Hauns Mill Masacre? You should read up on that. Or have you read the history of Nauvoo, Independence, Far West, Kirtland. DO you know how many inncent mormons were murdered there? Study up buddy!
Oh yes....one massacre deserves another. Hey, ever heard of blood atonement? Let's slit the throats of someone just because they want to leave the church.
Are you okay with the fact that Joseph Smith shot and killed two people while trying to break out of jail? He's no saint. My point is that Joseph Smith was a con man who can't be trusted. His "visions" were phoney and he couldn't even keep the story straight himself. It's a cult based on hucksterism. Ever hear about his "translation" of an Egyptian scroll that turned out to be totally wrong? Joseph Smith was a fraud.
Where is it written that he "shot and killed" two people while trying to "escape" from jail? True he had a gun in jail, but no one was killed with it. SO please let me know. He never escaped from jail either. He turned himself into Carthage and it was there that he stayed until the moment that he was killed.
Okay, I take it back- there's no proof that the people he shot actually died but he did inflict gunshot wounds on several people.
My main point is that Joseph Smith was a false prophet. He contradicts himself in various retellings of his "visions" and was exposed as a fraud when legitimate translations of the Egyptian scroll he "divined" with his magic stones proved him to be fabricating his entire version. Prove to me that this is not the case.
Theres a difference between perfect knowledge and faith. I have faith that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. I have faith that the Book of Mormon is a true book and I have faith that the church founded by Joseph Smith is the one true church of God. If you desire "proof" then you lack basic faith. Have you ever seen Jesus Christ?
Snyde: Are you okay with the fact that Joseph Smith shot and killed two people while trying to break out of jail?
I think you mean, "injured two people while he, his brother, and his closest friends were being violently mobbed." There is a big difference, and your inability to see that doesn't speak much about your reliability on ANY subject, especially the Mormon religion.
You know it is so sad but true to realize that Hollywood Stars like Dean Cain would be hoodwinked into portraying Joseph Smith, Jr. in a movie like this when it is apparant he has only done a cursory reading of the history, a history I have researched for over 25 years. September Dawn is a slick Hollywood anti-Mormon film that lacks depth and historical accuracy.
Actually, Joseph Smith did not kill anybody. That was only a rumor (not a "fact" as you call it). They were injured by his gunshots but they survived (and were later rewarded for their injuries as part in the mob killings of Joseph and Hyrum).
I'm afraid that once this movie is shown, people who sees it will start maligning church members, and even hurt them, This movie will truly have a negative impact to all people, because of it's negativity and twisted stories.
weapon in Joseph's hand? That actually is true, take the tour of the jail yourself and ask the tour guide about it, he will not say it in the tour, but if asked they WILL tell you he had a gun and shot twice. Also read history of the church, J. Smith had a gun, people just don't like to talk about it, it might ruin his "innocent image".
as always Satan uses the best and oldest tactic to make people hate God's true followers and His church "HALF LIES AND HALF TRUTH" That's the kind of movie September Dawn is.
Duh, Brigham Young was not even in Carthage when Joseph Smith was murdered. Obviously the person who made this film did not do his research, and whatever research he did is completely biased!
My thoughts exactly: if little details like time of day, who was there and who wasn't are fictionalized, then what else in this movie has been TWISTED?!
B. Young isn't in the clip, so what are you talking about? John Voight isn't playing B. Young. I've seen this on other post, its people who haven't seen the movie making assumptions about what is being shown, you really cant say anything till youve seen it.
You're right, I am sorry. But in a way I am still right because Jon Voight plays Jacob Samuelson. Jacon Samuelson was not there the night that Joseph Smith was murdered. I know that this movie is going to flop, there aren't enough people that care about this topic to go and see the movie. On rotten tomatoes, the 3 reviews it has already had are negative. I think it looks like crap and thats not my religion talking!
WRONG!!!!! Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong!! The martyrdom of Joseph Smith took place in the middle of the day, not at night. Also, Joseph never held a gun to defend himself. ABSOLUTE B.S. I hope to the almighty God that this movie fails. So help me, I HOPE.
Right, right, right about the middle of the day as the time of Joseph's murder. A little after 5 pm. Wrong, wrong, wrong about Joseph and the gun. Keep looking - you'll find it. 1st clue - pepperbox.
Your correct about it being during the day, but if I understand correctly he did have a pistol that someone smuggled in. He didn't shoot it like that though. He shot it through the crack in the door they were trying to keep from coming open after they had shot Hyrum.
Carthage had an actual jail but they moved them to another room because they never caused trouble, and they were allowed to have guns for their own protection, both Joseph and his brother Hyrum had pistols.
JoanyWood 4 weeks ago
This movie is about as accurate as my prophecy I found about the end of the world in my alphabet soup.
abrown2986 2 months ago
The Leader-dogs of the Mormon Hierarchy (an "Old World Religion", according to Smith, Jr. and Young) are--first and foremost--into whitewashing & covering up: they did such a "good job" of creating a cover story, (~155 years ago), that it has had to take a movie, on the subject, for modern-day Mormon Leader-dogs to be forced out into the open and fess up.
Expediency and "image" is EVERYTHING, to Mormon Top Brass.
And, up pops dufus L. Tom Perry & puts copious amounts of lipstick, on that pig!
Ahashdah 9 months ago
i remember being taught that joseph smith was in carthage jail and i have seen pictures of that jail and it looked pretty cozy for a jail...... A little too cozy for joseph smith though. Did they allow prisoners to have guns back then? Lol
williambeecher 9 months ago
Im in Missouri born and raised we do hate mormons they all needed to be curicified and killed like the idot empty headed old leader the only bad thing was he harldy suffered at all
Michaelprotectsme 1 year ago
Jon Voight hahaha
zionchild83 1 year ago
I am a bit confused. I thougt September Dawn is an ANTI-MORMON movie?!?
but this did seem like an anti-mormon movie!
enesdeape 1 year ago
This is a very inaccurate portrayal of the events at Carthage Jail... lol
Doliath 2 years ago 3
Dean Cain doesn't even look like Joseph Smith.LOL
brian8793 2 years ago 5
Comment removed
TylerHinds 2 years ago
had
TylerHinds 2 years ago
@brian8793 But he is a Superman like Joseph, LOL.
matthewakian2 7 months ago
yeah alba.....
utahna1967 2 years ago
I am happy they show that he had guns. Most of the time people leave out the guns
Still JS did not deserve to die. I just wish the Mormons would tell the true story of his death
bosxyn 2 years ago
Even the official LDS video leaves out the gun. Why?
Do they hold on to the myth of his being a martyr that desperately?
malicea4thought 2 years ago
The offical video leaves out the gun because he would look less noble.
He must look noble. Any person would pull out a gun to defend themselves, but Smith has to be above the average man.
He has to be polished, so the people do not doubt him or the message he gave. In my opinion, it is very important to know he was normal
bosxyn 2 years ago
As far as the idea of the church trying to create the noble death of Joseph Smith, you have to take into account that if they were trying to cover up the fact that he did use a gun then why is it on display at the church history museum in SLC? and it is clearly labeled as the gun he used in trying to escape. Even if you go to Carthage Jail where it took place an entire account both pro and con are given. one cannot simply watch a movie and form a judgment based on its content. it requires study.
MartinLuther105 2 years ago
No, they didn't leave the gun out on purpose. I am LDS and YES, I know he has a gun. I live in the UK and I am aware the gun were mentioned in Ensign, and also at tyhe museum in Salt Lake. So, nothing to hide really. If there's something missing in the film, I wouldn't quit church because of a movie nitpick. It's just A MOVIE.
WayneTheWriter 2 years ago
If the Mormons do not like how thier history is portrayed in the media, then I challenge them to make thier own movie, sort of like Passion of the Christ. If they are right, then why the concern or secrecy?
AW2378000000000000 3 years ago
It's interesting that Dean Cain played Joseph Smith. The LDS church portrays him as blonde haired and blue eyed. And isn't *Cain* the cursed one in the Old Testament. Very fitting for the part of Joseph ;)
divinegoddessartemis 3 years ago
If this is what Mormons did and they do back it up, but at the same time will not tell you then Mormons are evil people.
doomstoday 3 years ago
A brilliant history of Mormon insanity.
See also "Zarahemla Final" on youtube
apologiamixer 3 years ago
This movie was a flop!
cwood4ever 3 years ago
Your ad hominem attack on the film is the real flop. (Or would that be an ad filmanem attack?) LOL!
malicea4thought 2 years ago
The movie sux even for anti mormons
bobbyzworld123 3 years ago
fucc you cuhz
villan650 3 years ago
It makes me sick what that mob did to Joseph Smith and his brother. This is a total black mark in the history of Illinois. I'm not a Mormon - I'm certain Mr. Smith was no saint (nor am I nor any of us). BUT his bloody murder repulses me, and no one was held accountable. My sympathy lies with the Mormons. Mob rule should have been controlled by the then Illinois Gov Ford. Oddly Ford's own sons were lynched years later.
spunkychk2 3 years ago
Poor historically inaccurate script, poorly acted, poorly directed made with complete bias drivel.
LUMANWALTERS 4 years ago
Accept what the church did in the past and get over it, you are only saying this cause you are mormon. They practice poligamy and now they frown upon it, accept it.
doomstoday 3 years ago
Worst casting decision. Ever.
jabconewman 4 years ago
joseoh smith did have a gun. I am a member of the lds church. He had the gun it miss fired. He was defending his friends as would any man would.
blacksole21 4 years ago 10
Joseph was armed with a small pepper-box revolver left by Cyrus Wheelock. He fired said revolver three times, and had the other three misfire. The shots injured three men, who survived. He then attempted to jump from the balcony. One the balcony, the mob shot him three times.
Those are the facts. There is a lot of conjecture surrounding events before and since, but of that we can be certain.
neotericbladesman 3 years ago 3
silly film - unaccurate and really Dean Cain is proud of this drivel?
MillionaireMC 4 years ago
Sadly, yes.
loqutor 3 years ago
Comment removed
rustymente 4 years ago
If you check LDS History, you will find he did have a gun. This is some thing the Church does not tell us....Too controversial.
blooruk 4 years ago
We do to know that he had a gun.
maniack34 4 years ago
there were actually two guns with them at the time. They also had a walking type stick that they used to hold off the mob.
maniack34 4 years ago
read the article Martyrdom at Carthage by Reed Blake in the June Ensign of 1994. It has the full account of the incident.
maniack34 4 years ago
go to lds dot org and you can search for the article it's right there.
maniack34 4 years ago
it's not controversial at all. You just think it is, because you don't know how many time Joseph Smith was inprisoned wrongfully! You also don't read into the whole context of the matter you just read into what you think will help you prove your points.
maniack34 4 years ago
In the last second of this clip it shows Joseph Smith pointing a gun at those that where trying to kill him. He didn't have a gun. How ridiculous. He was in jail when he was shot. They don't let prisoners have a guns.
I'm glad this movie tanked at the box office.
AlbaGoBragh 4 years ago
Alba;
Your assertion that Smith had no gun is a lie.
I'm not attempting to justify the mob mentality that prevailed. The justice system (even in those times) was strong enough to prevail.
Nonetheless, Smith DID have a gun.
Outlaw1257 4 years ago 2
I am not trying to tell a lie. I just haven't read or don't remember ever hearing he had a gun.
It just sounds improbable. If he had a gun then why didn't he use it to escape or defend himself against the mob?
AlbaGoBragh 4 years ago
Outlaw,
I just did a little digging into LDS Church history. And you are right. He did have a gun, possibly 2 guns, a 6 shooter and maybe a Derringer. It appears that he only used the one and only fired 3 times. He wounded 3 attackers, 2 of which later died.
The gun was slipped to him by a vistor just before the mob rushed into the jail.
All I have to say about that is good for him. I am glad he got a few of those @#$~&!)'s before they got him.
AlbaGoBragh 4 years ago
Even further reading, the 3 men that Joseph Smith shot none of them died (bummer!). They lived long enough to to be named as co-conspirators in the trial of the murder of Joseph Smith. One of the 3 shot through the door and killed Joseph's brother Hyrum before they broke into the jail cell.
Local residents bought these 3 men new suits as a reward for their part in the murder of Joseph Smith.
AlbaGoBragh 4 years ago
Not excusing the mob mentality, but Smith had ripped off a lot of people with his bank scheme.
He was not killed for his religious beliefs. Many people make the mistake of thinking he was killed for starting the LDS faith, but there were only a few members at the time, not the millions they have today.
It was revenge for how Smith started a bank and ripped people off. Plain and simple. But church members were clever enough to tell the story over and over about how he died for his religion.
malicea4thought 2 years ago
In order to hide something you have to have something to hide.
He was NOT killed because of some made up notion of a banking scheme. What lead to his death was the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor, a newspaper published in Nauvoo. That was perhaps the straw that broke the camel's back. Joseph was aquitted of any charges regarding that but Gov Ford was still concerned over mounting tension issued a writ for his arrest over the same charge.
While in jail Joseph was killed.
AlbaGoBragh 2 years ago
He was outgunned. In official LDS church videos, Smith has no gun and the actor does not say "Oh, Lord my God" which was the Masonic distress signal that Smith uttered, hoping somebody in the mob would be a mason and stop the rest of the mob.
Smith did not go out like a sheep to the slaughter, he went out in a gun fight.
I would have liked this explanation better when I was a Mormon.
But the LDS church hides its history, and when people study, they find out and leave.
Why hide it?
malicea4thought 2 years ago
If all you research is done by watching Church videos then I could see why you would think the Church is hiding stuff. But it only takes opening a book or 2 to find out all of the facts.
When I was questioned in my previous posts about Joseph Smith having a gun, it did not take very long to find out that he did. Not very well hidden, I would say.
If an angry armed mob attacked you what would you do? It is no surprise at all that he used a Masonic distress signal, because he was a Mason.
AlbaGoBragh 2 years ago
Watch the official LDS version. Smith's gun and Masonic distress call are conveniently missing. Mormons are told (I was a Mormon for ~40 years) to avoid anything that is not approved. So, yes, it is possible to be a Mormon and not know Mormon history.
Official church teachings say that Smith went out as a sheep to the slaughter. Church manuals forget to mention the gun. It makes it look less like persecution and more like a gun battle that he simply lost.
Keep studying. Good luck to you!
malicea4thought 2 years ago
D&C 135:4 Joseph said that he was going like a lamb to the slaughter. That is where the Church gets that from.
The fact that certain elements are left out of Church movies is irrelevent. Very irrelevent. I've been a member of the Church for 51 years (ie all my life). Frankly I am shocked that you would leave the Church because what's not in a movie.
BTW the Masonic distress signal is "Oh Lord My God, have mercy on the widows son." It is possible that he was just using an expression.
AlbaGoBragh 2 years ago
the gun is a "certain element" element that is important. They keep it out, so he can look more noble. There is nothing wrong with pulling guns on an angry mob that wants to kill you, so they should keep it in. However, Smith must be above the average man.
People leave the church because it makes them wonder what else they are hiding
bosxyn 2 years ago
Joseph Smith was chosen as a Prophet not as Superman.
So what if he had a gun at Carthage Jail. So what it that fact was not mentioned in a Church movie.
Those people who wonder what else is being "hidden" should get off their big fat rear ends and do a little research. It's not hard to find out information on Smith.
There are lots of Church movies about Smith that don't mention that he almost lost his leg when he was a boy.
Don't be afraid of books, they don't bite.
AlbaGoBragh 2 years ago
I do read books about this man. Let me give you an example of something the church never mentiond. He translated the plates using a top hat with the stones inside the hat.
The church fails to mention these things. If they do mention them, it is very difficult to find.
I take issue with the fact that the church seeks to make him out to be near perfect. The leg is mentioned in some church publications, but the hat is mentioned once. The gun is never mentioned.
I
bosxyn 2 years ago
The July 1993 Ensign (the official monthly publication of the LDS Church) an article by Russell M. Nelson, called "A Treasured Testament" that talks in detail of the process of interpreting the B of M text with a hat.
The gun is mentioned in the "History of the Church" by B. H. Roberts.
They are not often mentioned because it's just not that important. The Church is more interested in the product of the translation than the process. The gun is very insignificant to me anyway.
AlbaGoBragh 2 years ago
It took much more than that. I defended Mormonism for years, and it just does not stand up to scrutiny. All answers depend on avoidance and obfuscation.
Also, the gun was denied by official church sources for decades until it could no longer be denied. Now it's "so what"? That's called minimization.
So Alba, are you an apologist? You have doubts, don't you? That's why you try to find answers, but they are not satisfying - even to you?
Good luck. Leaving is not easy. But it's worth it.
malicea4thought 2 years ago
If the Church denied the gun until recently then why was it in B.H. Robert's "History of the Church" which has been around since nearly the beginning? It was never hidden, it it was it would have never been published anywhere.
If I am an apologist it is all on my own. I have no connection with the Church in any capacity other than an ordinary member.
AlbaGoBragh 2 years ago
Any doubts or questions I have are in regards to everything including the Church. It is natural to be inquistive and to re-examine your positions.
To be totally honest, of everything I have read or been told about the Church, NOTHING has ever been presented to me that I could not either debunk or to find the logical flaws. After awhile I just quit reading that stuff because it just irritated me that people could still bring up the same lame arguements.
I'm not leaving the Church.
AlbaGoBragh 2 years ago
The mormons involved in this massacre were living in a state of paranoia. Read the following historical events and you may get a better understanding of why they did what they did. The Haun's Mill massacre, the Battle of Crooked River, the Missouri extermination order, the murder of Joseph Smith, History of Nauvoo Illinois etc.
imnvrgvnup 4 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Once again an over dramatized, sensationalized movie flops big time at the box office. It's funny how some idiots feel they can actually learn history by watching anything produced in Hollyweird. sad sad sad
revelations146 4 years ago
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rustymente 4 years ago
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rustymente 4 years ago
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rustymente 4 years ago
rustymente, I just LOVE your undying propensity to CAPITALIZE RANDOM WORDS to add to the effect of SHOCKING PEOPLE just like WILLIAM RANDOLPH HEARST. Or, do you capitalize CERTAIN THINGS because you THINK that since we are STUPID ENOUGH to listen to YOU, maybe we're too stupid to GET THE POINT?
loqutor 4 years ago
I have seen "SEPTEMBER DAWN" four times...Finally some truth!
Bring it on, bring it on!
nauvoochristian 4 years ago
nauvoochristian--You watched that POS film four times? That horrible distortion of history that painted Mormons in the same light as WWII propaganda films painted the Nazis and the Japanese in? The year's first honest-to-goodness exploitation film?
With your attitude towards Mormons, where do you get the nerve to call yourself a Christian?
loqutor 4 years ago
What the.....Joseph Smith had blue eyes dark-blond hair, not black!
dkanrjskgo 4 years ago
Not in the photo's I've seen of him!!
Not at all the "Hansone Prince" type as LDS attempts to portray him, but then again, Mormons were never predisposed to the truth!!
Outlaw1257 4 years ago
Really, Really, Really? You need to come to Nauvoo and visit the different LDS book stores...they have several photos of Joesph Smith and none are the same!
Come in July-August for the Nauvoo Pageant, Joesph has dark hair and dark eyes..OOPS!
nauvoochristian 4 years ago
There are no photos of Joseph Smith. He was murdered before photography was invented.
loqutor 4 years ago
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rustymente 4 years ago
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rustymente 4 years ago
rustymente--Yes, that's just what Jesus' followers said to Him. Guess Jesus was an estranged and perverted cult leader, huh?
loqutor 4 years ago
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rustymente 4 years ago
No, YOU don't know anything. Who the hell are you to go judging people? Why do you attack the Mormons constantly like this? The Mormons were treated more brutally than any other religious group in the history of the United States BEFORE they left for Utah. They had received information from reliable sources that a battalion was coming from the U.S. Army to subjugate them, and after Mountain Meadows, such an army DID come. Read your history.
loqutor 4 years ago
Mormons had a hard time in Missouri. I do not excuse what was done at Hauns Mill-- but a good part of what happened was in response to the of the reckless actions of the LDS leaders. That's why they called it the Missouri WAR. Mormon rhetoric (July 4 and Salt Sermons) was inflammatory at best. Mormons fired on state militia etc.
By the way, what was the "reliable source"?
taskboy 4 years ago
The movie seems one-sided to me too. I am not a mormon but from what I know they were massacred before they went west. The frontier was a hard place where the law of the jungle came before the law of the land. Who are we to condemn?
thelanceoromance 4 years ago 5
Thank you.
loqutor 4 years ago
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rustymente 4 years ago
You have the right to believe whatever you want, just don't presume to foist it on everybody else. That's the basic problem with thinking that yours is the "one true faith". Joseph Smith is a proven fraud. His tall tales are not even good science fiction. He claimed that Israelites came to the new world, lived here for 1000 years, had horses and steel weapons and huge cities. None of this is true, according to all credible scientists. He messed up the details of his fairy tale.
MrSnyde 4 years ago
I am a mormon and always knew joseph had a gun to for protection its never been covered up.
Enid1958 4 years ago 5
I agree. I have visited the Carthage jail historical site and Mormon tour guides explained all the details, (including Joseph firing a gun in order to try and protect himself and those with him).
As for September Dawn, the evidence that Brigham Young ordered the massacre or even knew about it is non-existent. Supposedly BY knew everything that happened in the Utah territory? Yeah ... right. It was a six day ride to Mountain Meadows.
smpf38 4 years ago 3
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rustymente 4 years ago
Dean Cain as Joseph Smith...I just keep expecting him to look at the camera and say "Believe it or not."
spudmustang 4 years ago
The mormons were run out and killed in many other states and were fearing for their lives. I do not agree with what the mormon men did, but they were all punished in some way. The men involved were excommunicated from the church. Brigham Young was in no way involved in the attacks. If you want to know what the mormon church really believes then you should visit the official web site!
nrmcb07 4 years ago
Hooray! Visit the official website and tithe 10% of your worldly goods to the Mormons! Woop-de-doo! In return you will not have premarital sex, drink coffee, tea, or alchohol, and you will be married to your spouse for all eternity! Yahoo! One special prize- in the afterlife, you will be a god of your own special planet but you'll have to get busy with your wife to populate the planet with slaves. More than one wife is okay. No blacks allowed. That is all. Verily.
MrSnyde 4 years ago
Excommunicated???!!!??? And only after federal involvement/pressure. Yes, I would agree that this would a fair penalty for cowardly murder of women and children.
kadkins3663 4 years ago
Brigham Young wrote to the Bishop saying not to fight, but the letter arrived Sept. 13. Joseph Smith did not kill anyone! He had a gun which the guard gave him; he fired 6 shots only three discharged but killed no one. He was trying to protect himself and his friends. I understand this movie is going to make false claims about the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints, but this movie does not represent history accurately.
nrmcb07 4 years ago
Joseph Smith shot and killed 2 people, that's a fact. I think a lot of people will see this movie and then go and read up on the real story and be amazed that anyone still follows this cult.
MrSnyde 4 years ago
Have you ever heard of another massacre call the Hauns Mill Masacre? You should read up on that. Or have you read the history of Nauvoo, Independence, Far West, Kirtland. DO you know how many inncent mormons were murdered there? Study up buddy!
noneleftover1 4 years ago
Oh yes....one massacre deserves another. Hey, ever heard of blood atonement? Let's slit the throats of someone just because they want to leave the church.
pedrocanjump2 4 years ago
Are you okay with the fact that Joseph Smith shot and killed two people while trying to break out of jail? He's no saint. My point is that Joseph Smith was a con man who can't be trusted. His "visions" were phoney and he couldn't even keep the story straight himself. It's a cult based on hucksterism. Ever hear about his "translation" of an Egyptian scroll that turned out to be totally wrong? Joseph Smith was a fraud.
MrSnyde 4 years ago
Where is it written that he "shot and killed" two people while trying to "escape" from jail? True he had a gun in jail, but no one was killed with it. SO please let me know. He never escaped from jail either. He turned himself into Carthage and it was there that he stayed until the moment that he was killed.
noneleftover1 4 years ago
Okay, I take it back- there's no proof that the people he shot actually died but he did inflict gunshot wounds on several people.
My main point is that Joseph Smith was a false prophet. He contradicts himself in various retellings of his "visions" and was exposed as a fraud when legitimate translations of the Egyptian scroll he "divined" with his magic stones proved him to be fabricating his entire version. Prove to me that this is not the case.
MrSnyde 4 years ago
Theres a difference between perfect knowledge and faith. I have faith that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. I have faith that the Book of Mormon is a true book and I have faith that the church founded by Joseph Smith is the one true church of God. If you desire "proof" then you lack basic faith. Have you ever seen Jesus Christ?
noneleftover1 4 years ago
Snyde: Are you okay with the fact that Joseph Smith shot and killed two people while trying to break out of jail?
I think you mean, "injured two people while he, his brother, and his closest friends were being violently mobbed." There is a big difference, and your inability to see that doesn't speak much about your reliability on ANY subject, especially the Mormon religion.
smpf38 4 years ago 3
You know it is so sad but true to realize that Hollywood Stars like Dean Cain would be hoodwinked into portraying Joseph Smith, Jr. in a movie like this when it is apparant he has only done a cursory reading of the history, a history I have researched for over 25 years. September Dawn is a slick Hollywood anti-Mormon film that lacks depth and historical accuracy.
Jacksonholenativ 4 years ago 3
Not nearly enough.
kadkins3663 4 years ago
I never heard that. Who did he kill?
kendigno 4 years ago
Actually, Joseph Smith did not kill anybody. That was only a rumor (not a "fact" as you call it). They were injured by his gunshots but they survived (and were later rewarded for their injuries as part in the mob killings of Joseph and Hyrum).
smpf38 4 years ago 3
I'm afraid that once this movie is shown, people who sees it will start maligning church members, and even hurt them, This movie will truly have a negative impact to all people, because of it's negativity and twisted stories.
yulsaba 4 years ago
Is that a weapon is Joseph's hand? This movie is definitely not true.
NightlightPro 4 years ago
weapon in Joseph's hand? That actually is true, take the tour of the jail yourself and ask the tour guide about it, he will not say it in the tour, but if asked they WILL tell you he had a gun and shot twice. Also read history of the church, J. Smith had a gun, people just don't like to talk about it, it might ruin his "innocent image".
TRUUUTHZ 4 years ago
as always Satan uses the best and oldest tactic to make people hate God's true followers and His church "HALF LIES AND HALF TRUTH" That's the kind of movie September Dawn is.
yulsaba 4 years ago
Duh, Brigham Young was not even in Carthage when Joseph Smith was murdered. Obviously the person who made this film did not do his research, and whatever research he did is completely biased!
noneleftover1 4 years ago
My thoughts exactly: if little details like time of day, who was there and who wasn't are fictionalized, then what else in this movie has been TWISTED?!
mikebatie 4 years ago
Read the well documented works of Juanita Brooks, Will Bagley, Sally Denton.
pedrocanjump2 4 years ago
B. Young isn't in the clip, so what are you talking about? John Voight isn't playing B. Young. I've seen this on other post, its people who haven't seen the movie making assumptions about what is being shown, you really cant say anything till youve seen it.
TRUUUTHZ 4 years ago
You're right, I am sorry. But in a way I am still right because Jon Voight plays Jacob Samuelson. Jacon Samuelson was not there the night that Joseph Smith was murdered. I know that this movie is going to flop, there aren't enough people that care about this topic to go and see the movie. On rotten tomatoes, the 3 reviews it has already had are negative. I think it looks like crap and thats not my religion talking!
noneleftover1 4 years ago
WRONG!!!!! Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong!! The martyrdom of Joseph Smith took place in the middle of the day, not at night. Also, Joseph never held a gun to defend himself. ABSOLUTE B.S. I hope to the almighty God that this movie fails. So help me, I HOPE.
spiritualCAPTAIN1 4 years ago
if you would like to talk about this I would love to. But please don't attack me and I will not attack you.
hr6152 4 years ago
Right, right, right about the middle of the day as the time of Joseph's murder. A little after 5 pm. Wrong, wrong, wrong about Joseph and the gun. Keep looking - you'll find it. 1st clue - pepperbox.
postwardist 4 years ago
You are a douche.
vaiDT 4 years ago
Your correct about it being during the day, but if I understand correctly he did have a pistol that someone smuggled in. He didn't shoot it like that though. He shot it through the crack in the door they were trying to keep from coming open after they had shot Hyrum.
cbaPaul 4 years ago
I'm sure that the joseph smith scenes will be flashbacks. Smith was dead at the time of the mountain meadow massacre.
deconomou 4 years ago
Dean Cain as Joseph Smith? That is cool!
provoguy57 4 years ago
wow!!!
dreamwaver 4 years ago