Abstract Objects Vs. Arrangements

[TehCybernerd]

... of course, that doesn't mean we shouldn't look deeper, or try to see things as arrangements of parts, but then those parts are abstract objects which we are projecting onto reality as well.

and like you said, it's useful to us to be able to see things as abstract objects. is it possible then to go any further than that?

[jlke45]

You're using terms (in particular, "abstract") in some very strange ways, and it's a little difficult to see just what you're arguing. Almost everyone since Quine has used "abstract object" to refer to things like numbers, sets, propositions, senses, etc.--ie, things having no spacio-temporal properties. No one thinks faces or minds are abstract objects. If you're just advocating extreme reductionism, that's nothing new, but I don't think anyone believes that hard drives are partless atoms.

[Venaloid]

I totally agree. People also tend to think that the laws of logic or mathematics are prescriptive entities that exist as their own, THINGS somewhere in space, which I would argue is a misconception by the same or similar brain mechanisms you discussed.

[silentsun22]

you're argument doesn't make sense because when you say that a sandwich is an arrangement of its parts, what about the arrangements that make up the sandwich? this inevitably leads us into an infinite regress into talking about quantum mechanics, which paradoxically is abtract thought!

Also, your argument privileges your own sense of reality, of what can be "grasped." and i'm sorry to say, your perception of reality is totally arbitrary i.e. dreams.

Also, by the very fact of "naming"

[ThePirateGrog]

i like the way you think. this is the kind of stuff i ponder all day long

[Wally773MTG]

Whoa...are you a Tralfamadorian in a human suit?

[xKryynx]

I want a sandwich now, but my tooth is infected and hurts like hell. Thanks for that craving! You bastard! :O

[omly85]

perceptive spirituality is where it comes from,..yes,we combine materials to get a productive object thats useful.However the fact we are beings we the ability to dream absolute abstract in all it's oneiric madness..science has given us the power to do many great things that has improved our lives..but before science you had monks reaching enlightenment..you had shamans drinking peyote & hindu holy men astral traveling..it is only western thinkng that made these practices untenible & strange.

[GalinorGustave]

It's sentience, the awareness that says 1 day you your biological computer (body) will become shoot. then you die... so how did you live, was it worth it?

[BeakerSan]

I'm pretty sure this is just a lack of understanding of Type Theory. Computer Programmers use that all the time. Classes and Objects. :P

[dylanErr1994]

Anyone want a Lockerz invite? PM me with your e-mail.

[waterdragonflyyy]

Nice xkcd shirt. Inspired by the lego one?

[xXRoBeRtXHaYdNXx]

smacking that hard drive around will shorten the distance of time it can travel through before it stops working.

[ScepticalAgnostic]

Bundle theory, how we love thee.

[iamnotapie]

You been reading some Hume?

[SolRosenberg84]

@iamnotapie

Nope. just thinking.

[iamnotapie]

@SolRosenberg84 Oh wow, then very good I agree with you 100%

[creationofself]

just realized how poorly worded that post was

[creationofself]

Personally, I think it is both sum and compositional. Also, by adding perception to the equation we get a whole new funky play ground. Within all logic, when no sensory perceptive force is experiencing the object the object can't be of sensory manifestation. Yet it can not be nothing. The molecular arrangements may still be there, but it has no capacity for sensory cognition. So I am lead to the conclusion that both preserver and the perceived are of symbiotic relationship.

[aPaThEiSt]

I'm thinking of reading something by Carl Sagan, what should I begin with? Pale Blue Dot?

[SolRosenberg84]

@aPaThEiSt

I've never actually read Pale Blue Dot. Demon Haunted World was good, and I enjoyed Tales of the Forgotten Ancestors as well. I can also recommend a series of lectures by him published under the name "Varieties of the Scientific Experience."

[Proletariat12]

@aPaThEiSt The best Carl Sagan would be Dragons of Eden. It's about the evolution of the brain, consciousness, and intelligence. READ IT!

[dude101bb]

@aPaThEiSt Carl Sagan is amazing. I'm reading Demon Haunted World, after reading Cosmos. I'm going to start on Pale Blue Dot right after DHW. That guy is amazing. Pick a book, any book and they're filled with amazing insight on our world and the Universe around us.

[joegt123]

So according to this, there are no abstract objects. Interesting.

Makes you wonder how far down into Molecules and subatomic particles you'd have to go to finally find the one thing that truly is abstract. The one thing that isn't made up of anything else.

[TheSameDonkey]

@joegt123 Do you mean like the classical Greek idea of an atom?

Personally I think if we dig deep enough, we will eventually wind up with "entities" that can only be described in a mathematical context... So... Err... Numbers maybe.

[joegt123]

Well you have neutrinos and such, right? Does something make them up? or are they what makes up everything.

If something makes them up. What makes that up? And what makes THAT up? Eventually you'd find something that couldn't be broken down into parts. Numbers would be interesting.

[TheSameDonkey]

@joegt123 "eventually you'd find something that couldn't be broken down into parts"

I myself consider it an open issue, which boils down to the question: Is space/time discrete or continuious (or both)

If it's discrete, then atoms (in the classical sense of the word) will exist.

But if it's continuious we'd couldn't know, we may hit a threshold, beyond which we cannot detect anything, or we might wind up with the technological means to dig indeffinately and still not find a smallest unit

[TheSameDonkey]

I'm totally with you on this one. But to drop the notion of "objects" having discrete identities is easier said than done. I tried at one point (for about 6 months) to refrain from using "the is of identity" (noun is noun) in text comments.

I could almost always find a way to say what I meant, and when I couldn't, I usually wound up noting a flaw in my reasoning.

[Inessarina]

@TheSameDonkey

Interesting. I sense youve read some work of Douglas Hofstadter?

[TheSameDonkey]

@Inessarina I've gotten halfway through Gödel Escher Bach three times... Does that count?

[Inessarina]

@TheSameDonkey

It does, haha. Douglas talks a bit about language, self reference and GEB in the beginning of 'I Am a Strange Loop'.. thats why I thought of him when I saw your comment.

I think after the first half of that one you'd be making pictures of mirrors for a long time :D

[joshkarandora]

It is about utility.

Our ancestors had no concept of the particles that make up an object.

Furthermore, this knowledge is actually useless for basic survival.

A monkey doesn't care about the potassium in a banana. Neither did your great great grandfather

We consider objects as single 3D entities but this is simply not how it works.

We really don't have any natural way to conceptualize it, but we still need to interact with 3D space, so our brains do the best it can to rationalize what we see

[xadart]

yea we live within floating constructs of which nothing is really solid and can be pinned down

[PlanckEpoch]

You should become a teacher, you would be good at it.

[HonestDiscussioner]

Gosh freakin' darn it how the fuck do I favorite this video on the new crappy youtube format?

[HisManifest]

@HonestDiscussioner Click the downward arrow next to "Save to" and click add to favorites.

[HonestDiscussioner]

huh . . .you know I LOOKED there the first time . . and it wasn't there then . . . I must have missed it. I do see it there now.

Whoever is responsible for these "upgrades" I think would benefit from . . not doing them anymore.

[HonestDiscussioner]

Oh, and thanks.

[rockyhard1]

"People have two ears and only one mouth. Maybe we should listen more and talk less"

"Hmm. Two legs and one head. Maybe you should think less and fuck off."

[PingeMusic]

I think we have to understand that every thing really is the sum of its part. and at the same time a sandwich really are a sandwich but it's not static it changes al the time but it is still a sandwich until we ate it. Just a thought from me. Regards and have a skilful life. Pinge

[Haengma]

Yeah I think due to pragmatic considerations we end up dealing with the approximate role a thing plays in the system its embedded in, rather than to the arrangement of whatever-stuff-is, presumedly matter and energy, persisting in that spot at that moment, which we can never really know or express precisely with complete accuracy (...probably). Lol.

[bamboo4tameshigiri]

One of the best descriptions I ever heard of consciousness from a research neurologist is that consciousness is like a flame dancing around in the brain (it sort of looks like that too in a scanner when you follow the blood flow). There is no one area responsible for it, it is always fluctuating and its different in everyone. Its constantly combining current input with emotions and stored memories. It's emergent complexity.

[RandiDied]

your cute...

[AlabamaKushG13]

5 A wise man will hear and increase in learning, And a man of understanding will acquire wise counsel,

6 To understand a proverb and a figure, The words of the wise and their riddles.

7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; Fools despise wisdom and instruction.

[AlabamaKushG13]

1The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel:

2 To know wisdom and instruction, To discern the sayings of understanding,

3 To receive instruction in wise behavior, Righteousness, justice and equity;

4 To give prudence to the naive, To the youth knowledge and discretion,

[kiddhitta]

i like your master chief helmet in the background

[Plasmon19]

Consciousness is a collective of elementary things. It should be noted that there are different levels of consciousness from the smallest living organisms to the largest and most intelligent. This is debatable, but this is my opinion.

Emergent complexity is such a new thing.

[BitRobot]

To generalize is the only way to comunicate.

[JollSSteR]

just like a mouth, where is the mouth? some peoples would point on the lips, no its the combination of the lips, teeth ETC... :P

[zach9899]

that was pretty cool. but I think conciousness might be actually a thing, nay, perhaps the only thing. maybe.

[magx01]

It's definitely utility. I mean, could you imagine having conversations/conveying ideas WITHOUT these abstractions?

Oh man. Book becomes several pieces of paper with words written on them binded together.

Ugh, language falls apart.

Great video.