Anatomy of a Cirrus Stall Accident

[99RFA]

noooooooooooo

[Blazingspitfire]

may be a cross control stall?

[TheMeslava]

@dboy4ever Well considering he was below 500 feet he wouldn't have the time to apply full spin recovery procedures, OR the time to enter a full spin in the first place. Simply the plane stalled, spin recovery was applied and since it was so early in the incipient spin stage, it caused a snap roll, (A basic aerobatic maneuver) and that ultimately led to disaster in this case. RIP to the pilot.

[bg11215]

I guess they didn't have time to pull the chute.

[makeiteasyable]

excellent analysis

[w5cdt]

NO fancy steep turns when low and slow. Stall speed is 41% higher at 60 degree bank. Study your Vso and Vs1 numbers and take note.

[kuse123123]

type in "ski crashes" in the youtube search and click the video with stars in the title to be shocked!

[StinkySQL]

The more I review sport plane accidents, the more its something like this. Low altitude and iffy violent changes just don't mix well.

[killingamps]

I used to try to impress my buddies in the tower with super-tight 360's in my C-150. I did not know how close I was to courting disaster.

[hangarrat101]

"Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect." - A.G. Lamplugh.

[MrFlyguy124]

no...i haven't

[Laudan08]

X-Plane is now used to recreate...

About the deceased pilot, he shouldn't have even tried to approach so steeply, at least he could have measured the consequences of such a sharp turn.

RIP

[brons2]

Thank you for posting this. Excellent analysis.

[dboy4ever]

It seems that the pilot should've used counter-aileron, instead of opposite rudder?

[shaneboulds]

@dboy4ever well, that could work. howeverproper counter spin procedures tell us to control roll with rudder. PARE :power idle aileron neutral, opposite rudder, elevator to brake the stall. If he was indeed in a fully stalled condition with the left wing being more stalled then the right, (a left rolling incipient spin) then countering with aileron would only make the spin tighter and harder to get out of. Opposite rudder was proper for a spini think he wasnt stalled completely thus a snap roll

[dboy4ever]

@shaneboulds It seems to me that the deceased pilot applied the correct spin recovery procedure (opposite rudder) in what seemed to be a partial stall. But due to the peculiar design of the Cirrus aircraft, this actually made things worse because the ailerons were still effective. I heard once a Cirrus gets into a real spin it's nearly impossible to recover and that's why they come with parachutes. Correct me if I'm wrong

[shaneboulds]

@dboy4ever that sounds about right. I dont know enough about cirrus aircraft. I dont have any time in them. But he most certainly did something to make it worse.

[RainbowManification]

What was the pilot thinking? You should value your safety and the safety of your passenger more then convenience, if your not lined up for a landing, just do a go around and try again, and for god's sake fly at traffic pattern altitude.

[n3089n]

Google: cirrus serious problems.

[acemannw]

I wonder why he didn't use the CAPS? At some point you have to realize you are going down and the CAPS could have saved them if they had used it.

nW

[commets]

@acemannw

at ~250 feet AGL?

[commets]

@acemannw

at ~250 feet AGL?

[jwboll]

@acemannw 550 feet above the ground and no warning. you'd have to have spiderman like reflexes to pull the chute handle before you hit the ground. (depending on speed and direction of travel, (horizontal/vertical) the parachute takes at least a thousand feet to work anyway.)

[rigilchrist]

@anythingthatflys Can you provide evidence of your statement: "putting the caps system on it was the only way they got the plane certified"? Cirrus state that the plane was deigned with CAPS from the outset.

[Newce02]

It's really strange to have come across this video. This accident happened my town and I've known the pilot most of my life. I can't figure out what his intentions might have been here. Our airfield has pretty much no traffic, so why would he be changing from a right downwind for 1, to left base for 19 at the last minute. Why the maneuvers at such low altitude? I hate to say it, but seems like he was just messing around with his new toy and made a bad move. Unfortunate. They are missed.

[XxMartialArtistxX]

this video inspires me to be more careful even tho i think im too careful as it is.

[ulissesreis]

It was pilot error. Just that. Unfortunately the result was death.

[MetaView7]

does anyone know if SR22 has an AOA as standard equipment?

[kingcrumpet]

note to self: Don't do 60 deg. banks.

[MetaView7]

@kingcrumpet

at least not on final, or in slow speed and at low attitude

[SVnerd]

Out of curiosity, does anybody know what was used to reconstruct the data? The video clip bears a resemblance to the X-Plane simulator program.

[coryjmarjr2]

Things like this are sad and I think all pilots should learn from it. I see most people analyzing what he did wrong with his effort to recover but we all need to remember how this situation started. I think the most crucial mistake the pilot made was he had very poor situational awareness. This video starts by saying he was at about 500ft AGL. If the pattern altitude and pattern entry was correct then this most likely wouldnt have happened. RIP

[EasternMerchant]

hmmmm in the end... pilot.....AND INSTRUCTOR ERROR!!!

[burreaucracy]

If you're flying with wings perpendicular to the ground, it ain't gonna matter how much stall resistance you have on the wings, YOU ARE GOING TO STALL.

[iratherfly]

People can talk angles of attack, split stall-proof wings or TCAS all they want, but what it boils down to is simple common sense: You do not maneuver abruptly when low and slow; period. Missed the runway? Go around! Being late somewhere or embarrassed about missing it is not worth your life.

[GuyJCooper]

Looks like this may have been a simulated engine out - they were very low to the ground - probably thought he would make Rwy1 and decided to put it on 19 at the last minute, thus all the steep maneuvering. I agree though - where the hell was the CFI during all this?

[iratherfly]

@GuyJCooper Simulated engine out should be done with a hard deck at ...say 6,000 ft AGL? Not atop a runway.

And then, there is that classic fuel management accident: Fuel selector valve set to pull gas from only one wing. Banking during the turn to final causes remaining fuel in this wing's tank to move away from pump line by gravity and centrifugal forces = Fuel starvation and engine dies off --> slows low speed aircraft even further --> inner wing stalls --> spin --> terrain.

[doug9driver]

@iratherfly Classic accident? Piper has no issue with uncovered fuel inlets in any angle of bank up to 60 degrees and they haved used a left/ right fuel selector for decades.

[acetow]

Wow that was strange that they did a right spin/snap on a left base to final turn. I would expect to see a skidding turn with not left bank but gobs of left rudder instead of a slipping turn with lots of left bank and too much right rudder. They explained what happened very well by showing the airplane snap roll to the right from a left turn. Too me it looks like coordination was just the initial problem but the major mess up was not unloading the stick when rolling upright.

[Handymanherb]

And this was with an instructor on board, below pattern height and over banking low the the ground WTF

[dingoklectos]

@Handymanherb, so damn right. I learnt this from Microsoft Flight Simulator 2000 back in 2000 in the Pilot's Handbook that came with the game...Rod Machado says that landings should use very extremely light aileron inputs,..

i can't believe a flight instructor would approve this!!

[snaprollyak]

I own/fly a Cirrus SR20 and a Yak 55. Certainly sounds like they did a snap (loads of fun at altitude - bad news in the pattern). A snap on the horizonal even at that altitude might have been recoverable if they knew the recovery sequence. Not sure that the Cirrus would respond quickly enough or if a recovery would not have put them into a stall/spin. That said, low alt is no place to yank and bank, especially if you're not familiar with what your aircraft will do under the curcumstances.

[ameliasmeema]

Experienced SR22/ATP pilot here. Sad and preventable accident. People tend to get into a Cirrus and think they're in an F16, think "glass cockpit, sidestick, etc:...which, in my experience, can lead to overestimation of the aircraft. The Cirrus is a wonderful aircraft, but it demands just as much respect as any other flying machine. Let's all keep learning what NOT to do as well as what TO do. RIP, aviators.

[frenchy2303]

Great reminder of why you never exceed 30 degrees of bank in the pattern, ever. If you set this limit as a personal minimum and just learn to live with 30 as the best you can do in the pattern, many of these stall/spin accidents can be prevented.

[SeanKReilly]

I am wondering how they know the aircrafts AoA from the data recorder. A Cirrus has no AoA sensor.

[amediastintas]

is you question how they know inflight? well in flight you have your poh which will let you know at what weight in what flap setting at what angle. it will tell you when it will stall. but the wing wil ALWAYS stall once it reaches the critical angle of attack

[amediastintas]

i see what your question is. im not sure what it would be, but if they could read it off of a data recorder it must have aoa sensor at least for the data recorder. i dont see which other way it could be done. although im not sr22 systems expert

[amediastintas]

maybe a calculation in a accelerometer.

[SeanKReilly]

That still wouldn't give you angle of attack - though maybe something close to it, if you assume a stationary airmass. I have hundreds of hours in the SR22 and can promise you there is no AoA sensor on the airplane.

[cirrussdbeach]

@SeanKReilly: Yup, Cirrus has no AoA sensor, but it does record flight parameters from the Avidyne PFD, then the NTSB validated the flight scenario with test flights and calculated the AoA for various portions of the wing. Amazing effort by NTSB to understand it all.

[amediastintas]

ive seen poeple stall in the pattern at 10 degrees. almost inverted it.

[frenchy2303]

True, the 30 degrees of bank assumes you're flying the airplane correctly in the first place. You can be straight and level and yank it into a stall, or if you're stretching the glide in an engine out situation; the 30 degrees of bank is a general rule to keep people from yanking and banking themselves at what would usually be a safe airspeed into a stall/spin below 1000' AGL.

[dingoklectos]

people stall in the pattern at 10 degrees? maybe they were going at a very low airspeed that's why.

[amediastintas]

exactly. Most GA aircraft are designed to stall at 10 to 15 degrees i believe. You would be surprised how easy it is to get too slow on the pattern when your looking at the runway for positioning or something distracts you. million things

[charlieechovictor]

oh thanks alot for this vid I haven't studied the turns yet, but at least I know that during a steep and low speed the bank angle the Angle of attack rises and results in a stall... maybe the use of slats would reduce the risks.

[sblack48]

Slats will delay stall on the protected portion of the wing, but if you abuse it it will do the same thing. This was a very abused case.

[amediastintas]

it would but if you got to the stall poin the stall would be much more aggressive since you are using more (JUICE) out of the wing. stinson L5 and the Stinson voyager apply slats to the aircraft.

[sblack48]

It was a flight review so the instructor quite possibly pulled the power on long downwind to simulate a forced approach. That is the only thing that explains the hairy-assed approach. Yes I am speculating etc etc but think about it. Then he let the situation get way out of hand. It can happen so damned quickly - maybe this video will prevent one of us from doing it. Fly safe.

[PeetPeeet]

Excellent analysis - good job Paul. This is exactly why my instructor used to nag me about bank angle in the pattern.

[100MPG]

Very sad and unnecessary loss of life. Obviously no idea of standard stall recovery - stick centrally forward with full power and slip ball in middle - then rolling wings level once the wing was flying again to go-around. That would have saved the day from the left wing drop. Incipient spin is stall buffet plus undemanded roll or yaw. Just using opposite rudder meant a/c spun in the other way.

[amediastintas]

i dont agree with the comment about the rudder input. any good tailwheel pilot will tell you to use rudder. problem here is to far back elevator and aileron use at the same time of the rudder input. classic aerobatic scenario to enter a snap roll. the rudder input should have been more than the aileron. aileron shouldve been very little. elevator realease to allow airspeed build up. anyway. this is the way i wouldve reacted. maybe im wrong but ive experimented with best results.

[wrh61]

I tend to agree with the announcer, "the more things change the more they stay the same".

I've made more than my fair share of stupid moves , so I ain't criticising anyone..

[Burnsengine]

@wrh61

I've made my share as well. But, from each mistake, we learn. Let's just hope we all LIVE to learn. :)

[Walborn11]

Let's not forget, we as pilots all know that the wind and other weather may have played a part. It is easy for us to criticize the deceased, but let's not think it cannot happen to the rest of us. Let's just all be careful and enjoy many more Christmases to come with our families.

[lavakava]

@Walborn11

why do ppl fly, especially small planes? it is too risky! unlike land/water, air is an invisible medium and thus deadly! gravity is unforgiving!

[coryjmarjr2]

Ever hear of the Titanic? You can google travel statistics, Aviation has a smaller death/passenger ratio than any other method of travel. In 2nd place is trains followed by sea travel and the most dangerous way to travel is BY CAR! The total number of people killed in car crashes in 2001 was 42,116, compared to 41,945 in 2000. An average of 114 people die each day in car crashes in the U.S. alone. So dont trash flying when you have nothing but fear as your justification.

[lavakava]

@coryjmarjr2

what you are failing to see is that far fewer people fly that drive. so obviously driving will have more deaths. however, if you are in a car and in a collision, you can survive. if you are in a plane and involved in a mid-air collision, chances are you will die...also planes are at the mercy of enormous invisible physical forces (microbursts, gravity, downdrafts, wake turbulence)...far greater than in a car.

[coryjmarjr2]

@lavakava Ok so by not being able to see wind that makes it less safe? I never met somebody that was killed by a drunk driver and said "THANK GOD I SAW THAT TRUCK COMING AT ME!" And I dont know you're level of education but if you dont seem to understand statistics look up what the term " Per Capita " means.. Air travel has a smaller death ratio "per capita" than any other mode of transportation.

[lavakava]

@coryjmarjr2

cars are more reliable mode of transportation...if its very windy, i can still drive, but if i fly i would die...

[coryjmarjr2]

@lavakava No, you would die because you're clearly not a pilot. If we just said " jeez its windy I give up " then yes we would die, but luckily pilots in general arent that stupid or incompetent. I dont mean to bash you but trashing flying when its something you clearly dont understand is kind of upsetting as I'm somebody who lives for it. Also, almost any moron can get a drivers liscense but in general it takes a great deal of hard work/training/ and education to become an aviator.

[coryjmarjr2]

@lavakava More stats for you. This is the YEARLY death averages from the past two decades.

Killed in car accidents 42,116

Killed by the common flu 20,000

Killed by murders 15,517

Killed in airline crashes

(of 477million passenger trips) 120

Killed by lightning strikes 90

Killed by Anthrax 5

U.S. Statistics average annual for 20 year period

[coryjmarjr2]

@lavakava MORE FACTS FOR YOU!

From January 1982 to March 2001, a period of 19.25 years, there were a total of 8,109,000,000 passenger enplanements. During that same time period, there were 2,301 fatalities (120 people killed on average each year), and 348 serious injuries. This amounts to a 0.00003% chance of being seriously injured or killed in a commercial aviation accident. This is far less than any other mode of transportation.

[lavakava]

@coryjmarjr2

I agree with your stats on commercial jets, but you didn't include general aviation: general aviation has a bleak record (approx 500-600 deaths per year and many severe injuries)...12000+ people were killed in that same time period you mentioned in small general aviation aircraft (piston planes, biplanes, helicopters, business jets, etc)....some herons (birds) broke the wing of a business jet and brought it down killing 5 people. but big jets are safer.

[crapper1]

ive pulled that off on flight sim and the g-s are always 1.3- 1.9 and i always miss the centerline and endup at full throttle and going for the correct approach never works unless u want to land 3/4 down the field

[jbcapo]

"Getthereitis" at its worst. Too much comfort as a pilot and you forget its not a game. RIP

[N21X]

Very sad. A good reminder for all of us.

[MercuryOneOne]

I felt the chill run up my back when you described the action of the pilots in the pattern... Scary!

[dylanhelmer]

what an idiot. Bad piloting. and bad instruction. the instructor should have known better

[wkelvinchiu]

Yeah... what were they thinking!

[azsteinw2]

bad decision makers...what were they thinking...that's something I might try on MS Flight but not with my own soul...geez....

[aldfkjldasfkj]

This guy was with an instructor pilot. To me the problem seems obvious - lousy instruction. The instructor had no business trying to enter an active pattern in such a way, so close to the runway, with crosswinds like that. After years of having experienced, and been involved with, aircraft and flight instruction, I really do think this type of pattern traffic accident is rooted in bad instruction and a de-emphasis of appropriate maneuvers within the traffic pattern.

[RoboTekno]

that's nuts

[peterw4141]

Very informative. Thank you

[AirDude1213]

Interesting, not sure why the pilot's decided to do that. RIP.