And here's the thing about Ted - so far as I know, he's stayed away from drugs all his life. I don't even know if he drinks these days. But he's one who, when he's handling a firearm, is doing so sober and clear-headed.
@bnakk Facts can also be the Con Servers kryptonite when it comes to freedom for all. Try plugging into our ninth amendment the keyword found that ended prohibition of jesus juice, "intoxicant".
"The enumeration in the constitution of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage OTHERS retained by the people."
The worst drug a human can consume is that jesus juice.
@bnakk I do find Con-Servers do play the dumb role,,, you are playing dumb aren't you?
Just in case you are not, the 9th amendment demands the end to the other prohibitions. As I said, plug in that key word found in the 21st amendment, into the 9th as the 'enumerated certain right' found in the constitution, and it becomes clear as any simple English words can be.
Why is the worst drug, alcohol the only legal intoxicant? Is it because morons think jesus made some? hebrews made up jesus
@SlackerSlayer The simplicity of that 9th amendment is as simple as the 2nd amendments right of the people to keep and bear arms, "shall not be infringed", not even former felons. Do you read any exceptions in the 2nd amendment, I do not. Clear as any simple words can be, placed together to convey an important concept = Freedom.
@SlackerSlayer "Shall not be infringed UPON" i believe is how it's stated. Hey 'Slayer', I'm right there with ya on this ....crap?...I dig Ted's philosophy on guns &hunting etc...
Self defense is a human right.The minute your goverment wants to take away your ability to properly defend yourself you better question thier motives. Hitler disarmed his people....Then he rounded them up and murdered them by the thousands. Lets not forget Pol pot, stalin, sadam etc....
When you have people who want you to be defensless, then you have poeple who want to take away your rights. Anti-gun folk are as anti-American as you can get.
@TheVkiller300 WELL SAID, SIMPLY PUT. ONLY LAW ABIDING CITIZENS PAY ATTENTION TO GUN LAWS. THE ONES WHO WILL KILL YOU DO NOT GIVE A FUCK ABOT GUN LAWS. THEY SUIRE AS HELL DO NOT KILL YOU WITH THEIR OWN REGESTERED GUNS. THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE. GUN LAWS DO NOT STOP GANGSTERS AND THE LIKE FROM AQUIRING GUNS. IN FACT CRIMINALS ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO HAVE GUNS IN A SOCITY WHERE GUNS ARE ILLEGAL. REAL SAFE!!!!!!!!! NOT!!!!!!!!!!
@AlienGreyZoneX "All the countries with no guns have no crime"??? Really?? I think there is still crime in those countries. One more thing. I don`t think he is a Liar. I think you are. Ted supports the constitution. What he does not support is someone trying to take our 2nd amendment from those of us who choose to own guns.
Of course there has to be laws and prohibiton for citizen in general. Just take a look around how U people in the States solve your conflicts. There's the evidence how wrong that path U R out on, one "civilization" where the society is broken and out on a "grande tour to collapse" - Mad Max The Road Warrior vs Snake Plissken - V For Vendetta
@Snake7Plissken Oh yeah we riot and beat the hell out of everyone after every game like those nice folks over there with you. BTW, try not to worry what path "us people are on here in the states." What path are you on??
Absolutely no difference between NASCAR, INDY, or Formula One (although, I prefer Formula One). How can you honestly say that Formula One is an aesthetic sport and Indy and NASCAR are not? There is absolutely no difference.
4a veto issue can be over-ridden with 2/3 majority my friend
@honestman43 U really understand essence of TGM?!?
How many 2/3 majorites in last 20 years? Not much of a threat :-)
Sense of history underlying average European fan's passion for F1... encompasses race tracks, teams, drivers... car itself (object of ego-propping) ranks somewhere in fourth.
NASCAR dad's boner from noise, driving in ovals & hypocritically hoping for the sensation of a good crash... NASCAR proportionately more a live experience than F1 aesthetic appreciation on TV.
I'm not a race fan, but NASCAR fans have a huge interest in the drivers, the teams, and the mechanics of the car itself (from all of the talk I hear). There are parties on the infield and much more. Do you know where NASCAR'S origins lie? Pretty funny I think.
Even though I am not a race fan, I think F1 would be easier to watch.
@mrwitzigwitzig Do you know that you`ve been on here talking your smack for 7 freaking months?? Oh yes, one more thing. Yes Yes you got me!! Just another gun owning "hick." Proud of it too!! One thing about us hicks though. We won`t be on here insulting people for 7 months.
The only reason I watched this was to take me back to my younger days when I was jamming to Ted in the 70s and 80s. I could never stand Letterman he's always been a smelly liberal piece of shit.
Throughout history, when people have been disarmed, they lose more and more of their rights. Examples: Nazi Germany and China. As many European countries regress into "knowing what is best" for its people, how long do you think it will be before they decide on what books should be read, or who should be educated? It is a slippery slope when people allow rights to be taken away to enjoy a "perceived" sense of security.
@mctabla I assure you my presumptuous friend, I have quite the serious library. Your little jabs are boring at best. Those of us that take gun ownership seriously have no issues with our egos. You assume to know too much. If citizens in Nazi Germany and China WERE armed, things may have not gotten so the point that they did. Tell me. who has guns in Europe....hmmmmmm..the criminals do. Were the criminals in line with your "deep rooted" consensus on strict gun control? I think not.
@honestman43 Every single West European country has experienced various forms of terrorism since 1945. Despite that, we never overreacted (maybe UK an exception), proved calm, patient and still didn't need guns.
9/11 turned US into a joke: The Patriot Act laughs at your rights. Two unnecessary wars (especially Iraq). & a false sense of security with dozens of new 'security agencies' employing hundreds of thousands of people & producing over 50'000 reports a year noone reads.
@mctabla Name calling shows ignorance my friend. I agree that both wars were unnecessary and the Patriot act is a joke, but take a good look in the mirror before you congratulate yourself too much. You obviously do not understand our culture or our society enough yet.
@honestman43 I can call you a hypocrite as so far I've dished up facts & arguments. Once you reciprocate in similar constructive fashion we could have a decent conversation.
Look at your posts: Silly conjecture & not a shred of serious knowledge of history or reality.
"Criminals in Europe have guns".... ha ha ha ha, pathetic. Police in UK don't carry firearms (apart from special firearms squad). You are 10x more likely to die of a firearm in US than W European average.
Facts? You have dished out statistics that can be manipulated to reflects ones biases. If you have ever had a research/statistics class, this should be quite obvious.
What is obvious to me is that you know very little about the U.S. and do not really care to.
Rates of violent crime are significantly higher in the UK for example, that the U.S. That is a fact.
Where law-abiding citizens are allowed to posses firearms (concealed weapons), crime has went down. That is a fact..
@mctabla You fail to understand that Western Europe and the United States have different histories and cultures. We have very high rates of gun violence in CERTAIN areas that skew the statistics for the rest of the country. A a study from the Harvard school of law the single handedly refutes your ignorant assertions.
@honestman43 "We have very high rates of gun violence in CERTAIN areas that skew the statistics for the rest of the country."
Ha ha ha ha. Apply logic:
The mere fact that you are 10x (!) more likely to die of firearm use in the US as compared to W Europe gives a rat's arse about where in the US or W Europe you happen to get shot. W Europe also has its regions/countries w higher incidency of firearm use just as US.
@honestman43 Ah, nice try with a silly rhetoric of 'blank statement claiming to be logical'.
But we are talking about hard statistics:
Firearm death-rate in W Europe ~1.5 deaths per 100'000
Compare that to the US: US 14.3 deaths per 100'000
(Finland has highest incidence with 5.6 deaths per 100'000, while the four lowest W European countries come in at: England 0.46 deaths per 100'000; Holland 0.7; Spain 0.9; Germany 1.52).
So stop cheap rhetoric & explain the numbers! If you can...
@honestman43 Ha ha ha ha, I'm aware of the paper you cite. If a student of mine calls research using one paper he's failed. Ever read the paper that points out that the major weakness of 'your' paper is that it has no explanatory theory/concept? In other words, it is descriptive but not sure of its implications.
Read the paper that explains that regions/states in the US w higher firearms crime exist in part to the fact that neighbouring states have differing gun restrictions?
@mctabla I can cite many more papers defending my stance. If you cared to read the bottom of the paper, you would see the plethora of sources cited. You refer to it as BS because it refutes the lies that have been spoon fed to you.
Our constitution is open to interpretation, so right now, your argument holds no water. Read more than just the 2nd amendment as well. Our Supreme Court golds the view that every law-abiding citizen has the right to keep and bear arms.
@honestman43 "Violent crime in UK significantly higher than in US", that is quite simply BS. Show me statistics or Ur source! How about these statistics: Murders per 100'000 people: Russia: 20.1534 South Africa: 5.62789 America: 4.2802 France: 1.73272 Canada: 1.49063 Britain: 1.40633 Japan: 0.499933 Believe me, the UK police would demand to carry guns if it were as bad as U try to make it out to be. So, try again. Fact is, I'm still 10x more likely to be shot in US.
@honestman43 Oh child... a country that ranks low in recent OECD/Bertelsmann studies, in income equality, child poverty, senior citizen poverty, education, child health, overall health care, has more tigers in private menageries than left in the wild, highest tertiary education costs...
Sure child, I'll give U 320 mill. guns & more as long as U fantasize about freedom & forget Ur poverty.
Sorry child, if some areas are 'safer' that means other areas are all the more dangerous. Wow, impressive!
@mrwitzigwitzig Back at you "child". Tell me all about the Utopia that you live in. Sounds like your in fantasyland. I'd also put my personal income against any upper- middle class in any Western European country and beat it. Why? Because I went to college and work my ass off. I am not content with being mediocre as you obviously are. Sure we have problems and somethings are half-assed here, but I'm very happy here and wouldn't live anywhere else.
@honestman43 See what U did: As last resort U fell back on Ur own personal well-off situation (good for U but) that avoids the reality around U.
Or do U according to Ur argument think all jobless, under-employed college grads are lazy bums? & then U want to compare well-off upper-middle class incomes... what's the use of that with a mess around U?
I don't think of Europe as utopia. It is an on-going project. But one that's social/economic/violence parameters of state & society make more sense.
@mrwitzigwitzig I have visited many Western European countries and have many friends there. It is very nice in most areas there.
Also being jobless or underemployed does not make you a lazy bun. Not trying makes you one. I volunteer some of my free time to help these people help themselves instead of relying on the government
@mrwitzigwitzig I do not look down on those that make less money than I do. Obviously, we disagree. You have your ideas on where you'd like to live and I have mine. I have no fears about walking down the streets of my city and it sounds like you are happy with your situation. I'll take my chances with living with more freedom.
@honestman43 I don't look down on anybody... check your head for how you apply logic... no clue where you got that idea from!?
Freedom is a discourse that makes a whole bunch of people giggle at you :-) Ever considered that the welfare state gives you the 'freedom' (time & space) to transition into a new job after being let go. When you get seriously ill it gives you the freedom to heal properly...
Your addiction to oil makes you as free as a junkie: Dependent on people you'd normally hate
@mrwitzigwitzig I wasn't accusing you of looking down on anyone. I merely said that I do not....unless they do not want to try in life.
I will agree with you on the seriously ill issue (up to a point), job transition.....not as much.
Our oil dependence is mainly the fault of our government. The average person here uses way too much oil. Gas and diesel is still very cheap here in comparison to Europe.
1) Imature to fault government... if you are educated, interested in what goes on around you - including globally - you won't ignore crucial trends and just sit back to be beaten by government into eg.: environmental conservation, energy efficiency etc.
European car makers build the models they build onlyt to a degree due to government regulation but primarily because consumers won't drive ego-propping gas-guzzlers.
@mrwitzigwitzig 1. Companies exerting pressure on our government to sway policy.....that is pure fact my friend (remember we live in a plutocracy, not a democracy), I gather my "news" from many different sources. Trends are childs play. Might I suggest delving into some of the meatier stuff like who is really pushing the buttons and why.
European car makers could make much more fuel efficient vehicles if they really wanted to. They won't sacrifice the HP though
@honestman43 By criticising government the way you do, you're actually admitting how dependent you are for government to lead the way :-) (See your oil argument).
2) Tea-baggers keep repeating the slogan "less government" but without saying where: Eg.: police, education, fire services, nat'l security, military, border guard, emergency med'l services, pensions, health care, infrastructure etc. etc.?!?!?!?
3) Stop fighting silly wars w their immediate & long-term costs.
@mrwitzigwitzig Wrong again. I was stating the fact that our government does not pursue alternate forms of energy and that a good number of Americans think that they have a right to cheap oil. I do not.
2. A certain level of government does need to exsist. I am not with the Tea-baggers.
@honestman43 Again you are unspecific on "certain level of government"... what does that mean exactly... where would you cut or completely eliminate the state's role? Like pulling worms out of tea-bagger noses.
US government (only since current administration) does pursue alternate energy via financial support targeted at start-ups in clean energy field.
Dems & GOP together watered down financial industry regulation! Clinton inherited debt, left substantial surplus. Point.
Going back decade by decade you will see European car makers always have pushed technology, incl. safety, engine power plus mileage per litre/gallon. (That's how AUDI tore NASCAR apart with their laughed at 2.3litre 5 cylinder engine Audi 200. AUDI now wins Le Mans with diesel cars & pioneers gas driven cars in domestic race formats: No government regulation forcing AUDI (or Peugeot that's followed suit with diesel Le Mans racing car)).
1) Which car industry philosophy do you think the Japs were emulating for decades until they took off in the late 1980s? The US... don't think so :-)
2) Trust me, if AUDI competes w a 2.3 litre 5 cylinder engine based on the actual street car AUDI 200... amid massive US engine blocks, it is exactly because they could market the street car to average Joe customer :-)
@mrwitzigwitzig Quite flattering I'm sure, but the Japanese (not Japs) took auto technology and made it that much better. Why do you think they have such great selling cars? A man from the U.S. Dr. Demming. wanted to bring quality control to our auto makers. They refused, so he went to Japan and taught them. Our cars have built in obsolecence to a fault, but for the money, some are not bad.
Hmmmm. I don't see many Audis around here. They are a nice car I agree.
@honestman43 oh and after seeing what they do, and how long they are used, I'll put up a Toyota Land Cruiser against any SUV Europe has. I win hands down on that one.
@honestman43 1) 'Total quality management' grew from a mix of Jap culture & family-run business ethos continued w/in large corporations. Dr Demming's ideas met on these pre-exisiting values, explaining why his philosophy could take root there in the 1st place. He didn't as much teach as help coalesce 2 sets of compatible values.
2) Audi's are expensive & rare exactly for aforementioned reason: (Turbo direct-injection)diesels aren't ego-propping.
@mrwitzigwitzig TQM's roots go back to the development of scientific method....Galileo...or farther back to To ancient philosophers in developing method. Nontheless, it does fit the Japanese culture quiet well.
@honestman43 TQM is a question of organisational culture & the principles that underly it. It has nothing to do with scientific method or ancient philosophers... BS ha ha ha ha. That's why Japan was able to adopt it so easily (already intrinsic to German organisational, industrial & engineering success) & the US largely chose to ignore Demming.
Formula 1 is not ego-propping, it is an aesthetic sport... from driver, car to team. Don't impose US notions :-)
3) Europe giggle's at ego-propping SUVs & yes, getting late into the game just to make money off the few urban cowboys that have more money than brains.
4a) Clinton wasn't brow beaten by Gingrich's invention of the partisan Congress (the current sad state of Congress has its roots right there: saying 'no' at all cost). Afterall he had veto & Congress could impose only so much.
4b) If Clinton was such a GOP cliche of a Dem, then amazing how he still delivered massive surplus!
@mrwitzigwitzig 3. For those living where there is a lot of snow, SUVs are quite helpful. For those in the cites & other areas, to some, they probably are ego propping.....much less than Europe claims to know though.
4a. The president cannot do much without support from the house and senate my friend.
4b. Taxes and spending were low then too. That being said, despite being for LEGAL gunowner and hunter's rights, George W. was a disaster.
3) Simple: calculate 1 maimed GI's annual physical & mental treatment costs. x30'000. x 50. Or ask Joe Stigliz, US Nobel winning economist who's already done the math :-)
4) Whining Republicans bicker about the mini solar hiccup as if US (like Europe) has long history of supporting tech companies, agriculture, trade etc. Only a child expects no hiccups.
5) Clinton could have been the GOP's cliche of a wasting Dem... well he sure knew how to pass on a surplus :-)
@mrwitzigwitzig 3. I already said that I disagreed with the two wars....did I miss a post?
4. We have had a ton of ethanol plant failures as well....under Bush and Obama. As I am an independent, I don't like what either party has done.
5. In Clinton's time in office, the republicans controlled the House and Senate.for the last 6 of his 8 years. :-) . Again, I am an independent, just stating a fact.
@honestman43 2) US plutocracy thrives on democratic based on only 2 parties! Micro-economic theory: Lack of competition & lack of representation of popular interests leads to interest convergence between 2 parties.
3) Plutocracy works where consumer is uninformed/complacent.
Same uninformed/complacent population led by Bush Jr into war. Not a single populace in Europe in favour. Extrapolate to populations' self-organising power & interest in environment, education, food, health...
@honestman43 Alone 30'000 maimed GIs in Bush Jr's Iraq War will exact costs of ca. 15billion US$ over next 50 years for physical/mental health care. Nobody talks about that, let alone 100'000+ dead Iraqis & an Iraq 10 years on politically falling apart.
4) The recent 2 wars of Bush Jr blew Clinton's surplus into deep red figures. Without those wars, nobody would be whining like GOP/tea-baggers... & not only Obama but US's future 1-2 generations wouldn't be faced with picking up Bush Jr's tab.
@mrwitzigwitzig I agree except for one thing. Clinton was not responsible for the U.S. surplus. The Democrats were actually the start of the housing bubble.
@mrwitzigwitzig I do not hate those from the middle east areas. The U.S. (and Europe) should just let them be.
I look at the "nanny" state that you speak of because of the dependence people have on government. Dependence is not freedom. That being said, I know that things are far from perfect here. It is my opinion that we need less government in our lives.
@arlo12345678910 Very impressive use of verbal violence and aggression. To quote Lenin (and no I am far from being a "Commie", just someone who uses his brain and listens attentively to any argument to assess its merit):
"Violence starts where reason ends"
Thanks for demonstrating how you revert to violence without applying reason :-)
(By the way, explain why 10x more likely to die by a firearm in US than West-European average? (That incl.s suicides. 4.5x more likely without suicides)
@mrwitzigwitzig How about you explain why you're 10x more likley to be a victim of theft, murder (by beating, stabbing), or rape in Europe in comparison to the U.S? I mean surley if guns were such violent tools wouldn't there be MORE crime in the U.S? I mean using your logic we should be the most violent country out there. The fact is The U.K (a country that has very strict gun laws) is rated one of the the most violent countries in Europe and has more then a 5x higher violent crime rate than..
@mrwitzigwitzig The U.S. I'll break it down for easy comparison.
Crimes commited per 100,000 people in the U.S is 450-490
Crimes committed per 100,000 people in the U.K is 3,500-3,600
Crimes commited per 100,000 poeple in Austrailia is 1,800-1,900
lol the only country there that doesn't have strict gun laws is the U.S and yet we have the lowest crime rate...HMMMMMMMM? I WONDER why? Fact is guns are used 5x more to defend as opposed to assualt someone.
@TheVkiller300 Ha ha ha ha... like talking to a redneck 3year-old:
Alone the 2010 US crime rate for property crime per 100'000 was 2'941!
So WTF are U claiming the overall crime rate was 450-490 per 100'000?!?!?
2010 violent crime rate alone was 403 per 100'000 in US!
By the way overall crime rates are pretty much comparable across modern industrialised countries!!!!!! The main difference is that in the US U're much more likely to get shot.
@mrwitzigwitzig Alright here we go bud. First please learn to spell and use punctuation before calling another man a "redneck3 year-old".
In 2011 alone the U.S VIOLENT (key word their jr) crime rate per 100,000 people was 560
The U.K was 4,500, Not even CLOSE to comparable.
And the little "you're more likely to be shot in the U.S" deal you pansy anti-gun losers like to use is no different than saying you're more likley to be killed by a falling coconut in malaysia than in Hawaii.
@mrwitzigwitzig Point is it's not very fucking likely. Hell, your more likely to be beaten to death in the U.K than you are to be SHOT in the U.S. So take that fucking stupid saying and shove it up your ass you moron.
It's a solid fact that guns are used more than 3x as much to save a life as opposed to assualt or take one. It's also a solid fact that areas with CC and little gun laws are the safest, lowest crime areas in the world. I know my facts boy. Seems you don't.
1) Before you criticise my spelling check yours ('malaysia', 'likley', 'your' when you intended to write "you're", 'assualt')... oh yes, I don't use baby US spelling of "criticize", check Oxford English Dictionary for 'criticise' :-)
2) Intentional homicide rate 2010 for US: 4.7 per 100'000. Compare that to 1.2 in Western and Central Europe! Take the former East Block countries with their black markets out of the equation and it's ,1.0!!
3) Intentional homicide rate of US is approx. 4x higher than Western & Central Europe!
4) Of course US gun crime is higher in gun control areas than areas with no/low gun control! You can't compare these 2 areas/issues for Ur baby argument that guns make safer environments: The no/low gun control areas flood the rest of US w guns, especially via gun fairs/shady dealers bad/nonexistant background checks.
5) So no/low gun control areas have 'better gun crime statistics' at the cost of gun control areas. Hence it's dishonest to treat these 2 areas within US as distinctly separate! Just as US demand for drugs and supply of black market guns is fuelling drug wars in Mexico... so U couldn't treat Mexico's appalling drug gang violence as a purely "mexican" issue.
6) Lesson in comparative statistics: Tell me first what the UK defines as 'violent crime' :-)
@mctabla Since your argument is you're 10X more likely to be killed by a fiream in the US. Even if your numbers are accurate 1.5 X 10 does not equal 4.3 by any stretch of the imagination. Next how many are random, domestic violence, during the commision of another crime, one violent criminal murdering another violent criminal? Fact is most homicides areare one criminal killing another. That means you are far more less likely to be shot here than you claim, besides having poor math.
10x refers to higher likelihood of death by firearm in US tha European average. 4.3x refers to higher likelihood of murder by firearm in US than Europe (excluding for example suicides or accidental deaths etc.) Easy if you can read isn't it?
1st marijuana arrest is violation. But depending on respective state laws, often 3 strikes & U're out! Drug offense prisoners were largest group of Federal inmates (55%) in 2001.
@mctabla Life is even harder when you are a complete moron living on another continent making comments on a subject you have no real knowledge or experience in. You contradict yourself and come up with some BS to cover in hopes nobody noticed. You pulled some numbers off on the internet. Listen to people who have something to gain by lying and twisting facts and your dumbass bought it hook line and sinker
@mctabla 1) In most states possession of a 'little bit' of marijuana is a misdemeanor. You CANNOT go to prison for a misdemeanor. 2) As far as I know 3 strikes applies to violent crime not just felony crimes in all 50 states. Do you have any clue what it takes to get a person charged at the Federal level for drug offenses? Its not for mere possession of a marijuana seed, a gram of cocaine, a single joint, a glass pipe with a little rock in it.
You're right but the laws are still to stiff. It hurt me pretty bad. I live in Texas and was arrested for possession, I had a little more than a joint.
I spent 36 hours in County Jail just being processed and was released on a PR bond. I went to Court, plead guilty. The Judge gave me a 700$ fine, 6 MONTH suspension of my license, and 3 days in Jail but released me on time served.
Taking my license so I can't get to work is counter productive. It's insane
@fishblades I dont live in Texas, never been to Texas and not likely to visit anytime soon. I have heard they can be harsh. Where I have found myself, that would most likely get you a ticket and a court date. I doubt a license would've played into it unless it was a DUI related offense but you're in case and I dont know a whole lot about how it works there.
Nearly 800,000 Americans were arrested on marijuana charges in 2005.
American taxpayer spends >billion dollars a year to incarcerate citizens for pot. (U.S. Department of Justice's Bureau of Justice Statistics).
According to BJS report, "Drug Use & Dependence, State & Federal Prisoners, 2004," 12.7 % of state inmates & 12.4 % of federal inmates incarcerated for drug violations are serving time for marijuana offenses.
@mctabla You get numbers off the internet and think you know something. Have you stopped to ask yourself how I could possibly know anything about any of this?
You didnt answer my question, do you have any idea what it takes to be prosecuted at the federal level for a drug offense? Whats the matter, couldnt find the answer on the internet? I will say it again you CANNOT go to prison for a single joint as you previously stated. Get your facts straight before spewing nonsense.
@mctabla Your ignorance is apparent and mildly amusing. You apparently do not understand how the jails and prisons work in the US. There are county jails ran by a county, state prison ran by a state and federal prisons ran by the federal. Misdemeanors are put in jails felonies got to prison. A joint=Misdemeanor=No prison time. Simple enough for you? You dont live it but you read some stuff on the internet and think you know all about it. Get your facts straight, internet genius.
@honestman43 & before you do NRA sloganeering US history:
The Founding Fathers instituted gun control laws so intrusive that the NRA today wouldn't support them. Early Americans denied the right to own a gun even to law-abiding people if they failed a loyalty test to the Revolution. The FF also declared that free white men were members of the militia &, as such, were forced to appear with their guns at public ‘musters’ where government officials inspected the weapons & registered them on tbc...
@honestman43 ...public rolls. When pressing public necessity demanded it, the FF were also willing to impress guns from law abiding citizens, even if those citizens were left without guns to defend themselves from a criminal attack. (Read Adam Winkler's book).
So today's US gun identity politics lead by the NRA are a misuse of the Founding Fathers and a distortion of historic reality.
@mctabla Today's gun identity is derived from free thinking people (the majority anyway). Adam Winkler is certainly entitled to his own opinions. However, I do not agree with them.
The United States is much different than it was at the time of its birth. As I remember we were kicking the Brits out and did not want a king thinking for us.
I have a number of friends from the UK and they are more than happy with their way of life as I am with mine.
@mctabla I havent and wont read thru the whole argument. I just have a point to make. Have you check the source or your numbers? Where the numbers come from to what end those numbers were collected. The point I am trying to make is how many of those firearms deaths were the result of self defense? You know against robbery, serious assault, rape, home invasion burglary, homicide. You're a liar if you claim any of that is only US crime. Fact is anyone can slap together numbers to prove their side
@mctabla According to the FBI crime stats 14738 people were murdered in the US in 2010 which is a 4.2% decrease from 2009 and 14.8% decrease from 2006. In 2010 4.8 per 100,000 were murdered. Since 2006 the US Supreme Court has made several rulings in favor of gun rights. Does that mean gun ownership is the cause of the decrease. I don't know but I certainly can use that as an argument, can't I? Do those number include justifiable or excusable homicides? I don't know that either
I admire his frontier mentality, and wanting to kill his own food, but his supposed facts about gun control fall flat on their face in multiple european and asian countries, where handguns are illegal or very restricted, and they have so much lower gun death rates than the USA. Ted just flat out doesn't know his facts.
I agree with the notion that gun control does make it easier for dictators, such as in Nazi Germany, etc, so the militia argument is valid, but rifles are adequate for that.
@TheRealCritique To claim that militias stop dictators is ludicrous. It also shows a lack of knowledge of historic facts.
If you take the rise of the Nazis, this was a mind-set finding fertile grounds in centuries old catholic hatred of Jews, massive joblessness (>20%), uncertainties about the recent loss of the Old Order (monarchy/emperor) as well as the frustrations of an unripe democracy (every 2 years a new government).
Hitler never won a majority at elections but strong-armed parliament.
@TheRealCritique So irrespective if people had guns or not, the issue was simply one of a nation in disarray & despair. Sadly, Hitler offered a simplistic answer to this need that resonated with about a third of the population. (Remember that the mass extermination of Jews was only decided in 1942. Hitler was elected in 1933 on what was essentially a jobs & nationalism ticket. The 1st violent anti-Jewish incidents 1936).
Todays tea-baggers, hicks & neo-cons would laud a 1933 Hitler.
@honestman43 Concerning Germany & China in 1st half 20th Century, getting a feeling of historical context & contingency would serve you well:
Not enough space here but historic principle (ever read Eric Wolf?) is you can't divide social reality of the time into black/white or good/bad or 'the people'/'fascists'. Hitler promised jobs, nat'l unity & pride/discipline. After years of global economic crisis (thanks US), 30% jobless, 1st democracy a mess...
If Americans are as racist as you seem to believe, how did Obama get elected? Not only did he get elected, he won by a large margin. He has turned out to be a dismal failure. Many Democrats are unhappy with him. He shows no leadership, he does nothing to bring the people together and he has run up the largest debt the US has ever seen. Yet when someone disagrees with him, you call that person a racist? Do you not remember the hatred people had for Bush? Did they hate white people?
@b1kfd About 1/4 of the adult population voted for Obama. That leaves plenty to snipe at Obama overtly & covertly when they thought they could get away w it. How else do U explain the popularity of shitkicker eg. Glen Beck? Don't try to hide this shameless pack behind 1/4 of Ur voting population.
Oh, & Ur whining comparison w Bush:
Despite Bush doing really stupid things, there was no near the same level of open hatred voiced against him as against Obama... sorry, try selling that to a goat.
If our government tried to outlaw guns, it would be an utter failure: The majority of police officers in rural areas of the U.S. are also gun enthusiasts, and gun owners are their friends. The cop would come by and ask the gun owner about his guns, and the guy would say "I don't have any guns" the cop would leave, and that would be the end of it. Or in my case I would give the cop that old worthless revolver I have laying around...
You seem like you have no understanding of our culture. By you first comments to me, you believe I am a "hick" just because I am a gun owner and disagree with the direction our President is taking this country. Perhaps you should get your information first-hand instead of believing everything you see on tv.
National law overrides state law (one reason why individual states with more rigid gun laws are suffering is due to proximity of states with lax laws).
1) Ban all gun shops/traders
Carrot:
1) Every gun handed in gets financial reward
2) Hunters can register max. 2 weapons
Stick:
1) After 3 month grace period, unlicensed carrier of a gun faces 2 months jail & US$15000 fine.
2) Criminal using gun in a crime, faces triple the usual sentence.
@mctabla I am an avid gun enthusiast, but, for the sake of argument, I'll humor you.
You've overlooked a couple of details
1. The Constitution would have to be changed
2. The 200,000,000 + guns in this country
3. Armed crime already carries a heavy penalty.
4. Prisons are overcrowded with REAL criminals now.
Gun buybacks are great, I would love for them to do a buyback around here, I have a crappy old revolver that's not worth $20 that I'd turn in for the $200 "reward".
@b1kfd Agreed, it would be a huge political project but wouldn't that be a worthy entry into history? Congress has become too negative & passive to dream up pretty much anything.
1) Politicians w balls could amend constitution
2) 200'000'000 guns, yup... that shows you the interest & power of the NRA lobby.
3) Fair enough
4) Prisons are overcrowded yes but too many inmates are victims of oversentencing for 1) three strikes & you're out as well as 2) e.g. minor drug offences (marijuana etc.)
@mctabla It would be a tragedy, but it's not going to happen, so I won't be losing any sleep about people tring to take my guns.
1. Where would you find enough of them?
2. The NRA has nothing to do with that figure
3. So you would replace the so-called "oversentenced" crimminals with the tens of millions of law abiding citizens who would suddenly be legislated into lawlessness? I don't think that would work out very well...
1) It's not 'taking things', it's about a vision of society w/out guns. If European countries can do it... It's not about 'people trying to take Ur guns'... it's a political decision. Sometimes politicians need to make bold decisions. Segregation, women's vote etc. were issues w many states opposing progressive reform. But Washington (eventually) had balls.
2) The NRA has every interest to protect that figure!
3) No problem as U have (eg.) 3 months to hand Ur gun in.
@mctabla 1.Sure it's about taking things. It's also about a government's fundamental distrust of it's citizens. Who ever said the US should be like Europe? We aren't the French, nor should we be. While I do agree with you that our elected officials need the fortitude to tackle the important issues, I would probably disagree with you on what those issues are, and how they should be solved.
@b1kfd "It's also about a government's fundamental distrust of it's citizens." Are U saying it's the other way round too, ie. that citizens don't fundamentally trust government?
Why do U then even refer to Urself as citizen? Only makes sense if U accept 1) Ur rights & duties plus 2) the fundamental coexistence of state & society.
In Europe we've a different result of state formation: Cooperation btw. state & society. It's a positive/productive attitude. No fear of 'tyranny' or of loose guns.
@mctabla Yes I'm saying that. It's very healthy for the population to have a mistrust of it's government. (Didn't Europe learn anything from the Nazis?) I absolutely accept my "rights and duties" as you put it. One of those rights is to keep and bear arms.
The reason I don't fear tyranny is because of those "loose guns"
I've been to Europe, and it's a great place to visit, but I don't believe my view of freedom would fit in very well over there.
@b1kfd Well, we are as grumpy & critical of government as anyone but we trust the political system and the constitution.
What seems to come across in the discussion with you, is that not only do you distrust government but you also have a distrust in the political system. Because government can be elected in and out of power... so no need for guns as a deterrent of gov't overreach.
So what remains is a citizenry under arms distrusting the general system.
@mctabla Yeah, that's about right. There are several differences between the USA and European countries. One key difference is that there are many different cultures, religions, and nationalities living here, and we all have different ways of thinking. Laws that work in New York don't work in Texas. I trust the Constitution, but there are too many people out there mucking with it. I am suspicious (as anyone should be) of people who desire political power. Who can say what their motives are?
@b1kfd Differences of culture, religion, political system (variations of democracy) make Europe hardly different than US, probably quite a bit more heterogenous: Afterall we're 20+ countries w different languages that on top of that are absorbing large, diverse migrant populations from immediate neighbours: Middle East, E Europe, N Africa.
US risks fragmenting under systemic suspicion: U can't get anything done: Creationism in schools... WTF!? Major infrastructure? Constant partisanship?
@mctabla Europe is vastly different than the US. How is all of you new population working out for you? I've seen a lot of cars burning in Europe the past few years.
@b1kfd Ha ha ha ha ha, feeble try. Specifically when and where have you seen "a lot of cars burning in Europe" because of "new population" (immigrants)?
You insinuate a connection, U need to be specific or you look like a silly old racist.
(P.S. in terms of riots, we've all had our fair share don't you think? P.P.S. Our 'new population' dates back decades (early post-war economic migrants) if not centuries (colonies) or millenia (tribal migrations; Celts, Angle-Saxons, Huns, Turks, Romans...)
@mctabla What is it with you liberals and accusations of racism? You are just showing to me that in your own heart, you see everything in terms of race, so that would make you the racist. Yes, you have more than your share of riots. I belive those riots would not happen in the areas of our country where firearm ownership is unrestricted. The population of the US is much more diverse than the population of any one European country. You are trying to compare your Continent with a single country.
@b1kfd 1) Within a 2 sentence comment U mention immigrants & burning cars... completely innocent of racism aren't U?
2) Oh please, stupid riot argument!
3) US more diverse? Globalisation tends to even out differences... e.g. we all have immigrants that bring cultural, religious diversity etc. But Europe has 20+ countries with distinct languages, histories, ingrained cultural heritage & far higher levels of immigration. US aims at assimilating. Hell you can't even deal with a black president!?
@mctabla What in the does Obama's race have to do with anything? If I have my way, Herman Cain will be the next President. The US is more diverse than any single European country. I stated this before, but you are so bent on labeling me that you must have missed it. Are you telling me that immigration had nothing to do with the riots? If they did not, then I have been misinformed, because all of the news outlets over here were reporting just that. How about you go back to being civil?
@b1kfd Obama: 3 years of public & media frenzy about birth certificate/religion etc. r every bit symptomatic of the failure of substantial part of US population to accept Ur diversity. That kind of witch hunt would b unimagineable in Europe (exception maybe Poland). To an undeniable degree it reflects latent racism.
Riots in Europe reflect struggling socio-economic integration of lower classes (eg. recent UK riots). Immigrants to a degree are a part of that... but not a problem of immigration.
@mctabla This only reflects racism to those who look for it everywhere. Demanding to see your President's birth certificate is not a "witch hunt" (not that Idoubted his nationality) Obama was mistrusted by some because our news media was actively cheerleading for Obama, instead of vetting him, as they have done every other candidate for the past 200 +yrs. As for his religion, only a few believed he is a muslim, not that it matters to me what his religion is.
@b1kfd Oh please, how do U espect me to b civil, when U're selling such BS!?
"The news media" does not exist. Depending what U wanted to scapegoat, U could find Ur 'side' with ease. (FOX was pro-Obama!?) So claiming Obama wasn't "vetted by the media" is plain BS. Oh, & after 8 years of Bush I can understand the relief on a certain 'side' to have an intelligent person running for office. So yes, the euphoria was there but as a reflection of a large part of the populace.
@mctabla You're the one selling bs. Obama would not have been questioned at all if not for Fox News. Bill and Hillary Clinton were both vetted by the media, even though the media were largely sympathetic to the Clinton's political idiology. I am not a fan of Bush, but your implication that he lacks intelligence is incorrect.What's the price of being polite? Do you think insults make your argument stronger, or are you someone who tries to make himself feel better by insulting others?
@b1kfd Ha ha ha, sorry but this is ludicrous: "Obama would not have been questioned at all if not for Fox News".
Are U serious!?!?!?!?! How the hell do U think he could have stood for precidency in the 1st place?! That gave the media & shitkickers like FOX at least 1 year prior to the election to get things sorted out. But no, that 1 year wasn't enough, the shitkickers took another 3 years climaxing with Beck & Trump... both now disgraced (again).
@b1kfd My 'insults' by the way were focussed at statements (usually using quotes). They were hardly personal. Eg. you can hardly be BS. But Ur statements surely.
& I'm getting tired of constructing arguments only to get evading or even no responses from U. I've responded constructively to every issue & if U can't deal with strong language relating to an issue then keep Ur fake PC... it doesn't even embellish Ur points.
@mctabla Seems its possible that you get the same BS about the US that we do about Europe? Why do you even care what our gun control laws are? I dont care what yours are. I quite honestly dont care how you are governed in any way shape or form. You like it, great good for you. Stay over there. Stop trying to make my home like yours. If thats what I wanted I'd pack my stuff and move
@LeeScurge 3 times and your out... that goes for the possession of marijuana too. That was the point... why would you even assume I was trying to bail out rapists or robbers? Ha ha ha ha.
If you're not too lazy do your own research, check your sources and then let me know what you've learnt.
Self-defence? Well, if my statistics are correct and you claim firearm homicides were because of self-defence, then you must have one hell of a violent, aggressive society.
@mctabla You're person that said people were in prison that shouldn't be. Rapists, armed robbers, murders are frequently found in prisons.
Having put some stats together myself I know numbers can be twisted to prove any point you are trying to make. You don't know where I get my information. I do know all that you have 'learnt' has come from the internet.
I asked how many of those numbers could have been a result of self DEFENSE. Did not say nor suggest it was all. You fail..again
@mctabla I hope English is not your first language and you are using a translator program.
Again people do not go to prison for a joint. Who ever told you that, is a liar. Marijuana in most states is a misdemeanor. You CANNOT go to prison for a misdemeanor. For your own education prison (felony crimes) is not the same as county jail (misdemeanor crimes). There are sentencing guidelines the court must follow for amount of time behind bars.
@b1kfd & part of that whining comparison btw Obama & Bush:
Considering the shit Bush got US into (2 wars, massive debt, open disregard of human rights, pushing Supreme Court blatantly to the right, 8 years of not reigning in financial sector etc.) I'm mystified to how Obama is such a 'failure' considering the mess he was left to pick up?
1) Saved US auto industry 2) staved off recession 3) health care reform 4) student loans 5) drawing down Iraq 6) managing Afghanistan 7) consumer protection??
@mctabla The level of hatred directed at Obama comes nowhere near what Bush faced. Not even close. You say Bush created "massive debt" but Obama has outspent him by a wide margin. It's obvious to me that you are just another liberal blindly following Obama. You were offended by me saying the US needs a leadership change (Ididn't mention Obama, you ASSSUMED I was talking about him) The one thing you say that has any credibility is that Obama helped out the Auto industry.
@mctabla You must get all of your "information" from the dailykos.com or msnbc. "pushing the Supreme Court to the right"?? Every president appoints Justices based on his political ideology, Obama appointed a liberal, and if he has the chance, he will appoint another liberal. Obama has had 3 years (2 with complete control of Congress) to fix what is wrong and all he's done is make things worse. Staved off a recession?? Really? Tell that to the unemployed. He's Bush lite on foriegn policy
@b1kfd Sotomayor 'liberal'.?! 1) A catholic like the majority of the Supreme Court 2) Take her ruling in favour of Bush abortion organisation financing statute. Obama's candidate is half as partisan as any of Bush's truly conservative appointees.
"3 years to fix what is wrong"... how childish. it took Clinton 8 years to get budget back into big surplus.
W absolute mess Bush gave Obama: 2 wars, financial & economic crisis, huge debt, GOP drifting to the right & ludicrous. Obama is doing ok :-)
@mctabla Of course she's liberal, only someone outside of the mainstream would think otherwise. The only way Clinton fixed the budget was by making a hard right turn. Read your history instead of regurgitating far-left talking points and you may get a clue.
The financial crisis was as much (if not more) the fault of Dodd-Frank (both Dems) as it was Bush. Obama has rode the "blame Bush" train for his whole presidency. All his term has gotten us is more debt, more partisanship, and less jobs
Supreme Court Justices have to make rulings based on the Constitution and judicial precedent, not completely on ideology. If Obama is doing so well, why are his poll numbers so poor? Oh yeah, racism, because you seem to thing everyone should blindly follow him, and never criticize him. Bush (and the Democratically-controlled Congress) drove the car into the ditch, Obama (and the Democratically-controlled Congress) are trying to run it over a cliff...
I also mourn using a tragedy to make a political point... My job requires me to treat gunshot victims. But I'm not foolish enough to blame the gun for the actions of an evil individual. If the gun caused the crime, put it in jail.
And here's the thing about Ted - so far as I know, he's stayed away from drugs all his life. I don't even know if he drinks these days. But he's one who, when he's handling a firearm, is doing so sober and clear-headed.
ladylejean215 1 week ago 2
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constitutionfst 1 week ago
@bnakk Facts can also be the Con Servers kryptonite when it comes to freedom for all. Try plugging into our ninth amendment the keyword found that ended prohibition of jesus juice, "intoxicant".
"The enumeration in the constitution of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage OTHERS retained by the people."
The worst drug a human can consume is that jesus juice.
SlackerSlayer 1 week ago
@SlackerSlayer I think I'd like to rebut your post but I'm still trying to figure out what you said......
bnakk 1 week ago
@bnakk I do find Con-Servers do play the dumb role,,, you are playing dumb aren't you?
Just in case you are not, the 9th amendment demands the end to the other prohibitions. As I said, plug in that key word found in the 21st amendment, into the 9th as the 'enumerated certain right' found in the constitution, and it becomes clear as any simple English words can be.
Why is the worst drug, alcohol the only legal intoxicant? Is it because morons think jesus made some? hebrews made up jesus
SlackerSlayer 1 week ago
@SlackerSlayer The simplicity of that 9th amendment is as simple as the 2nd amendments right of the people to keep and bear arms, "shall not be infringed", not even former felons. Do you read any exceptions in the 2nd amendment, I do not. Clear as any simple words can be, placed together to convey an important concept = Freedom.
SlackerSlayer 1 week ago
@SlackerSlayer "Shall not be infringed UPON" i believe is how it's stated. Hey 'Slayer', I'm right there with ya on this ....crap?...I dig Ted's philosophy on guns &hunting etc...
my1andonlyprison 1 week ago
@bnakk Your confusion my be cleared up if you read what you said that I replied to. But then maybe you like to be that way.
SlackerSlayer 1 week ago
"I shoot Buicks too."
RageDownRodeo23 3 weeks ago
Guns keep government from enslaving it's people
Syzygy60 1 month ago
Self defense is a human right.The minute your goverment wants to take away your ability to properly defend yourself you better question thier motives. Hitler disarmed his people....Then he rounded them up and murdered them by the thousands. Lets not forget Pol pot, stalin, sadam etc....
When you have people who want you to be defensless, then you have poeple who want to take away your rights. Anti-gun folk are as anti-American as you can get.
TheVkiller300 1 month ago
@TheVkiller300 AMEN BROTHER
arlo12345678910 1 month ago
@TheVkiller300 WELL SAID, SIMPLY PUT. ONLY LAW ABIDING CITIZENS PAY ATTENTION TO GUN LAWS. THE ONES WHO WILL KILL YOU DO NOT GIVE A FUCK ABOT GUN LAWS. THEY SUIRE AS HELL DO NOT KILL YOU WITH THEIR OWN REGESTERED GUNS. THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE. GUN LAWS DO NOT STOP GANGSTERS AND THE LIKE FROM AQUIRING GUNS. IN FACT CRIMINALS ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO HAVE GUNS IN A SOCITY WHERE GUNS ARE ILLEGAL. REAL SAFE!!!!!!!!! NOT!!!!!!!!!!
arlo12345678910 1 month ago
@AlienGreyZoneX "All the countries with no guns have no crime"??? Really?? I think there is still crime in those countries. One more thing. I don`t think he is a Liar. I think you are. Ted supports the constitution. What he does not support is someone trying to take our 2nd amendment from those of us who choose to own guns.
treeman7616 1 month ago
He's a liar. All the countries with no guns have no crime. Liar
AlienGreyZoneX 1 month ago
The hypocrite goes against the constitution gun laws.
AlienGreyZoneX 1 month ago
Wow Paul still had some hair left!
oldsmobill64 1 month ago
hey I really like Ted Nuggent, I was never that into him before, but i reallly like him
monjiaitaly 1 month ago
Of course there has to be laws and prohibiton for citizen in general. Just take a look around how U people in the States solve your conflicts. There's the evidence how wrong that path U R out on, one "civilization" where the society is broken and out on a "grande tour to collapse" - Mad Max The Road Warrior vs Snake Plissken - V For Vendetta
Snake7Plissken 1 month ago
@Snake7Plissken Oh yeah we riot and beat the hell out of everyone after every game like those nice folks over there with you. BTW, try not to worry what path "us people are on here in the states." What path are you on??
treeman7616 1 month ago
Never seen these clips before man. Cool stuff and cool of you to post it.
Brushpup 1 month ago
Well, we disagree on TQM
Absolutely no difference between NASCAR, INDY, or Formula One (although, I prefer Formula One). How can you honestly say that Formula One is an aesthetic sport and Indy and NASCAR are not? There is absolutely no difference.
4a veto issue can be over-ridden with 2/3 majority my friend
honestman43 1 month ago
@honestman43 U really understand essence of TGM?!?
How many 2/3 majorites in last 20 years? Not much of a threat :-)
Sense of history underlying average European fan's passion for F1... encompasses race tracks, teams, drivers... car itself (object of ego-propping) ranks somewhere in fourth.
NASCAR dad's boner from noise, driving in ovals & hypocritically hoping for the sensation of a good crash... NASCAR proportionately more a live experience than F1 aesthetic appreciation on TV.
mrwitzigwitzig 1 month ago
@mrwitzigwitzig In your eyes apparently not.
2/3 majority is still there....just in case :)
I'm not a race fan, but NASCAR fans have a huge interest in the drivers, the teams, and the mechanics of the car itself (from all of the talk I hear). There are parties on the infield and much more. Do you know where NASCAR'S origins lie? Pretty funny I think.
Even though I am not a race fan, I think F1 would be easier to watch.
honestman43 1 month ago
@mrwitzigwitzig Do you know that you`ve been on here talking your smack for 7 freaking months?? Oh yes, one more thing. Yes Yes you got me!! Just another gun owning "hick." Proud of it too!! One thing about us hicks though. We won`t be on here insulting people for 7 months.
treeman7616 1 month ago
@treeman7616 Im glad about that you PROUD HILLBILLY HICK!
arlo12345678910 1 month ago
i love this man. ted for president!
jesusmetal92107 1 month ago
WTF!!!!!
animalgerhard 2 months ago
The only reason I watched this was to take me back to my younger days when I was jamming to Ted in the 70s and 80s. I could never stand Letterman he's always been a smelly liberal piece of shit.
myNifty350 2 months ago
As wonderfully engaging as this argument is...
Ted Nugent is an awesome rocker, and it's hard to not love his music!
96gummyworms 2 months ago
AN AMERICAN ROCKER! AN AMERICAN PATRIOT!
politicjunkee 2 months ago
This was back when TV interviews were fucking interesting. Now it's just "Ah, so you were in that movie recently, how was that?"
AntonDoesMusic 3 months ago
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Pizuzuzimmer 3 months ago
@Pizuzuzimmer hilarious comment
Robtron3030 3 months ago in playlist More videos from beckaboard
I can not help but like Ted Nugent. And it has nothing to with his Uncle John being my homeroom teacher.
teden20 3 months ago
Dave should have Ted on the show much more often.
GonzoGuyy 4 months ago
Throughout history, when people have been disarmed, they lose more and more of their rights. Examples: Nazi Germany and China. As many European countries regress into "knowing what is best" for its people, how long do you think it will be before they decide on what books should be read, or who should be educated? It is a slippery slope when people allow rights to be taken away to enjoy a "perceived" sense of security.
honestman43 4 months ago
@honestman43 Read serious books on history & don't regurgitate silly quotes from idiots:
"Throughout history, when people have been disarmed, they lose more and more of their rights."
Nazi Germany/China never had armed populations to begin with.
The historical process that led to their political upheavals had nothing to do with population being armed or not.
Europe has a historically deep rooted concensus on strict gun control. We don't need guns to prop our egos and keep lobbyists busy.
mctabla 4 months ago
@mctabla I assure you my presumptuous friend, I have quite the serious library. Your little jabs are boring at best. Those of us that take gun ownership seriously have no issues with our egos. You assume to know too much. If citizens in Nazi Germany and China WERE armed, things may have not gotten so the point that they did. Tell me. who has guns in Europe....hmmmmmm..the criminals do. Were the criminals in line with your "deep rooted" consensus on strict gun control? I think not.
honestman43 4 months ago
@honestman43 Every single West European country has experienced various forms of terrorism since 1945. Despite that, we never overreacted (maybe UK an exception), proved calm, patient and still didn't need guns.
9/11 turned US into a joke: The Patriot Act laughs at your rights. Two unnecessary wars (especially Iraq). & a false sense of security with dozens of new 'security agencies' employing hundreds of thousands of people & producing over 50'000 reports a year noone reads.
U silly hypocrite
mctabla 4 months ago
@mctabla Name calling shows ignorance my friend. I agree that both wars were unnecessary and the Patriot act is a joke, but take a good look in the mirror before you congratulate yourself too much. You obviously do not understand our culture or our society enough yet.
honestman43 4 months ago
@honestman43 I can call you a hypocrite as so far I've dished up facts & arguments. Once you reciprocate in similar constructive fashion we could have a decent conversation.
Look at your posts: Silly conjecture & not a shred of serious knowledge of history or reality.
"Criminals in Europe have guns".... ha ha ha ha, pathetic. Police in UK don't carry firearms (apart from special firearms squad). You are 10x more likely to die of a firearm in US than W European average.
We're quite happy :-)
mctabla 4 months ago
@mctabla
Facts? You have dished out statistics that can be manipulated to reflects ones biases. If you have ever had a research/statistics class, this should be quite obvious.
What is obvious to me is that you know very little about the U.S. and do not really care to.
Rates of violent crime are significantly higher in the UK for example, that the U.S. That is a fact.
Where law-abiding citizens are allowed to posses firearms (concealed weapons), crime has went down. That is a fact..
honestman43 4 months ago
@mctabla You fail to understand that Western Europe and the United States have different histories and cultures. We have very high rates of gun violence in CERTAIN areas that skew the statistics for the rest of the country. A a study from the Harvard school of law the single handedly refutes your ignorant assertions.
honestman43 4 months ago
@honestman43 "We have very high rates of gun violence in CERTAIN areas that skew the statistics for the rest of the country."
Ha ha ha ha. Apply logic:
The mere fact that you are 10x (!) more likely to die of firearm use in the US as compared to W Europe gives a rat's arse about where in the US or W Europe you happen to get shot. W Europe also has its regions/countries w higher incidency of firearm use just as US.
But it doesn't change your chances!
Unless you have W European gun laws :-)
mctabla 4 months ago
@mctabla You give a blanket statement and claim it to be logical. Quite laughable indeed. Read the study I have provided you with.
Such a blanket statement makes it clear to me that you do not truly understand research.
honestman43 4 months ago
@honestman43 Ah, nice try with a silly rhetoric of 'blank statement claiming to be logical'.
But we are talking about hard statistics:
Firearm death-rate in W Europe ~1.5 deaths per 100'000
Compare that to the US: US 14.3 deaths per 100'000
(Finland has highest incidence with 5.6 deaths per 100'000, while the four lowest W European countries come in at: England 0.46 deaths per 100'000; Holland 0.7; Spain 0.9; Germany 1.52).
So stop cheap rhetoric & explain the numbers! If you can...
mctabla 4 months ago
@mctabla It is called a "Blanket Statement". You obviously did not read the research I told you to.
honestman43 4 months ago
@honestman43 Ha ha ha ha, I'm aware of the paper you cite. If a student of mine calls research using one paper he's failed. Ever read the paper that points out that the major weakness of 'your' paper is that it has no explanatory theory/concept? In other words, it is descriptive but not sure of its implications.
Read the paper that explains that regions/states in the US w higher firearms crime exist in part to the fact that neighbouring states have differing gun restrictions?
& now to Ur BS:
mctabla 4 months ago
@mctabla I can cite many more papers defending my stance. If you cared to read the bottom of the paper, you would see the plethora of sources cited. You refer to it as BS because it refutes the lies that have been spoon fed to you.
Our constitution is open to interpretation, so right now, your argument holds no water. Read more than just the 2nd amendment as well. Our Supreme Court golds the view that every law-abiding citizen has the right to keep and bear arms.
honestman43 4 months ago
mctabla 4 months ago
@mctabla Fact is, it depends on where you are in the U.S. . Most of the U.S. is much lower than the 10x that you trumpet.
honestman43 4 months ago
@honestman43 Oh child... a country that ranks low in recent OECD/Bertelsmann studies, in income equality, child poverty, senior citizen poverty, education, child health, overall health care, has more tigers in private menageries than left in the wild, highest tertiary education costs...
Sure child, I'll give U 320 mill. guns & more as long as U fantasize about freedom & forget Ur poverty.
Sorry child, if some areas are 'safer' that means other areas are all the more dangerous. Wow, impressive!
mrwitzigwitzig 4 months ago
@mrwitzigwitzig Back at you "child". Tell me all about the Utopia that you live in. Sounds like your in fantasyland. I'd also put my personal income against any upper- middle class in any Western European country and beat it. Why? Because I went to college and work my ass off. I am not content with being mediocre as you obviously are. Sure we have problems and somethings are half-assed here, but I'm very happy here and wouldn't live anywhere else.
honestman43 4 months ago
@honestman43 See what U did: As last resort U fell back on Ur own personal well-off situation (good for U but) that avoids the reality around U.
Or do U according to Ur argument think all jobless, under-employed college grads are lazy bums? & then U want to compare well-off upper-middle class incomes... what's the use of that with a mess around U?
I don't think of Europe as utopia. It is an on-going project. But one that's social/economic/violence parameters of state & society make more sense.
mrwitzigwitzig 4 months ago 6
@mrwitzigwitzig I have visited many Western European countries and have many friends there. It is very nice in most areas there.
Also being jobless or underemployed does not make you a lazy bun. Not trying makes you one. I volunteer some of my free time to help these people help themselves instead of relying on the government
honestman43 4 months ago
@mrwitzigwitzig I do not look down on those that make less money than I do. Obviously, we disagree. You have your ideas on where you'd like to live and I have mine. I have no fears about walking down the streets of my city and it sounds like you are happy with your situation. I'll take my chances with living with more freedom.
honestman43 2 months ago
@honestman43 I don't look down on anybody... check your head for how you apply logic... no clue where you got that idea from!?
Freedom is a discourse that makes a whole bunch of people giggle at you :-) Ever considered that the welfare state gives you the 'freedom' (time & space) to transition into a new job after being let go. When you get seriously ill it gives you the freedom to heal properly...
Your addiction to oil makes you as free as a junkie: Dependent on people you'd normally hate
mrwitzigwitzig 2 months ago
@mrwitzigwitzig I wasn't accusing you of looking down on anyone. I merely said that I do not....unless they do not want to try in life.
I will agree with you on the seriously ill issue (up to a point), job transition.....not as much.
Our oil dependence is mainly the fault of our government. The average person here uses way too much oil. Gas and diesel is still very cheap here in comparison to Europe.
honestman43 2 months ago
@honestman43 Oh dear, where to start?!
1) Imature to fault government... if you are educated, interested in what goes on around you - including globally - you won't ignore crucial trends and just sit back to be beaten by government into eg.: environmental conservation, energy efficiency etc.
European car makers build the models they build onlyt to a degree due to government regulation but primarily because consumers won't drive ego-propping gas-guzzlers.
mrwitzigwitzig 1 month ago
@mrwitzigwitzig 1. Companies exerting pressure on our government to sway policy.....that is pure fact my friend (remember we live in a plutocracy, not a democracy), I gather my "news" from many different sources. Trends are childs play. Might I suggest delving into some of the meatier stuff like who is really pushing the buttons and why.
European car makers could make much more fuel efficient vehicles if they really wanted to. They won't sacrifice the HP though
honestman43 1 month ago
@honestman43 By criticising government the way you do, you're actually admitting how dependent you are for government to lead the way :-) (See your oil argument).
2) Tea-baggers keep repeating the slogan "less government" but without saying where: Eg.: police, education, fire services, nat'l security, military, border guard, emergency med'l services, pensions, health care, infrastructure etc. etc.?!?!?!?
3) Stop fighting silly wars w their immediate & long-term costs.
mrwitzigwitzig 1 month ago
@mrwitzigwitzig Wrong again. I was stating the fact that our government does not pursue alternate forms of energy and that a good number of Americans think that they have a right to cheap oil. I do not.
2. A certain level of government does need to exsist. I am not with the Tea-baggers.
3. I agree with you on this one
honestman43 1 month ago
@honestman43 Again you are unspecific on "certain level of government"... what does that mean exactly... where would you cut or completely eliminate the state's role? Like pulling worms out of tea-bagger noses.
US government (only since current administration) does pursue alternate energy via financial support targeted at start-ups in clean energy field.
Dems & GOP together watered down financial industry regulation! Clinton inherited debt, left substantial surplus. Point.
mrwitzigwitzig 1 month ago
@mrwitzigwitzig There is no way I can give you an exact amout. I think you know that very well.
U.S. Govt. (current administration is sorting out the bankruptcy fiasco of two large solar companies). Check other wasted ventures.
Clinton rode the wave of an economic surge and claimed credit for it. Point! Oh, and check what Barney Frank & Chris Dodd came up with.
honestman43 1 month ago
@honestman43 Know your history first:
Going back decade by decade you will see European car makers always have pushed technology, incl. safety, engine power plus mileage per litre/gallon. (That's how AUDI tore NASCAR apart with their laughed at 2.3litre 5 cylinder engine Audi 200. AUDI now wins Le Mans with diesel cars & pioneers gas driven cars in domestic race formats: No government regulation forcing AUDI (or Peugeot that's followed suit with diesel Le Mans racing car)).
mrwitzigwitzig 1 month ago
@mrwitzigwitzig Racing is not the same as street driving. The Japanese are about the best there, and it isn't by using all European technology.
honestman43 1 month ago
@honestman43 Ha ha ha ha ha,
1) Which car industry philosophy do you think the Japs were emulating for decades until they took off in the late 1980s? The US... don't think so :-)
2) Trust me, if AUDI competes w a 2.3 litre 5 cylinder engine based on the actual street car AUDI 200... amid massive US engine blocks, it is exactly because they could market the street car to average Joe customer :-)
mrwitzigwitzig 1 month ago
@mrwitzigwitzig Quite flattering I'm sure, but the Japanese (not Japs) took auto technology and made it that much better. Why do you think they have such great selling cars? A man from the U.S. Dr. Demming. wanted to bring quality control to our auto makers. They refused, so he went to Japan and taught them. Our cars have built in obsolecence to a fault, but for the money, some are not bad.
Hmmmm. I don't see many Audis around here. They are a nice car I agree.
honestman43 1 month ago
@honestman43 oh and after seeing what they do, and how long they are used, I'll put up a Toyota Land Cruiser against any SUV Europe has. I win hands down on that one.
honestman43 1 month ago
@honestman43 1) 'Total quality management' grew from a mix of Jap culture & family-run business ethos continued w/in large corporations. Dr Demming's ideas met on these pre-exisiting values, explaining why his philosophy could take root there in the 1st place. He didn't as much teach as help coalesce 2 sets of compatible values.
2) Audi's are expensive & rare exactly for aforementioned reason: (Turbo direct-injection)diesels aren't ego-propping.
mrwitzigwitzig 1 month ago
@mrwitzigwitzig TQM's roots go back to the development of scientific method....Galileo...or farther back to To ancient philosophers in developing method. Nontheless, it does fit the Japanese culture quiet well.
honestman43 1 month ago
@mrwitzigwitzig Having a fast car when racing isn't ego-propping? Racing is built on ego-propping my friend. In Europe and the U.S.
honestman43 1 month ago
@honestman43 TQM is a question of organisational culture & the principles that underly it. It has nothing to do with scientific method or ancient philosophers... BS ha ha ha ha. That's why Japan was able to adopt it so easily (already intrinsic to German organisational, industrial & engineering success) & the US largely chose to ignore Demming.
Formula 1 is not ego-propping, it is an aesthetic sport... from driver, car to team. Don't impose US notions :-)
4a doesn't contradict veto issue.
mrwitzigwitzig 1 month ago
@honestman43
3) Europe giggle's at ego-propping SUVs & yes, getting late into the game just to make money off the few urban cowboys that have more money than brains.
4a) Clinton wasn't brow beaten by Gingrich's invention of the partisan Congress (the current sad state of Congress has its roots right there: saying 'no' at all cost). Afterall he had veto & Congress could impose only so much.
4b) If Clinton was such a GOP cliche of a Dem, then amazing how he still delivered massive surplus!
mrwitzigwitzig 1 month ago
@mrwitzigwitzig 3. For those living where there is a lot of snow, SUVs are quite helpful. For those in the cites & other areas, to some, they probably are ego propping.....much less than Europe claims to know though.
4a. The president cannot do much without support from the house and senate my friend.
4b. Taxes and spending were low then too. That being said, despite being for LEGAL gunowner and hunter's rights, George W. was a disaster.
honestman43 1 month ago
@honestman43 3. The Toyota Land Cruiser comment I made earlier was from seeing them put to use in Africa, not in the U.S.
honestman43 1 month ago
@honestman43
3) Simple: calculate 1 maimed GI's annual physical & mental treatment costs. x30'000. x 50. Or ask Joe Stigliz, US Nobel winning economist who's already done the math :-)
4) Whining Republicans bicker about the mini solar hiccup as if US (like Europe) has long history of supporting tech companies, agriculture, trade etc. Only a child expects no hiccups.
5) Clinton could have been the GOP's cliche of a wasting Dem... well he sure knew how to pass on a surplus :-)
mrwitzigwitzig 1 month ago
@mrwitzigwitzig 3. I already said that I disagreed with the two wars....did I miss a post?
4. We have had a ton of ethanol plant failures as well....under Bush and Obama. As I am an independent, I don't like what either party has done.
5. In Clinton's time in office, the republicans controlled the House and Senate.for the last 6 of his 8 years. :-) . Again, I am an independent, just stating a fact.
honestman43 1 month ago
@honestman43 2) US plutocracy thrives on democratic based on only 2 parties! Micro-economic theory: Lack of competition & lack of representation of popular interests leads to interest convergence between 2 parties.
3) Plutocracy works where consumer is uninformed/complacent.
Same uninformed/complacent population led by Bush Jr into war. Not a single populace in Europe in favour. Extrapolate to populations' self-organising power & interest in environment, education, food, health...
mrwitzigwitzig 1 month ago
@honestman43 Alone 30'000 maimed GIs in Bush Jr's Iraq War will exact costs of ca. 15billion US$ over next 50 years for physical/mental health care. Nobody talks about that, let alone 100'000+ dead Iraqis & an Iraq 10 years on politically falling apart.
4) The recent 2 wars of Bush Jr blew Clinton's surplus into deep red figures. Without those wars, nobody would be whining like GOP/tea-baggers... & not only Obama but US's future 1-2 generations wouldn't be faced with picking up Bush Jr's tab.
mrwitzigwitzig 1 month ago
@mrwitzigwitzig I agree except for one thing. Clinton was not responsible for the U.S. surplus. The Democrats were actually the start of the housing bubble.
honestman43 1 month ago
@mrwitzigwitzig I do not hate those from the middle east areas. The U.S. (and Europe) should just let them be.
I look at the "nanny" state that you speak of because of the dependence people have on government. Dependence is not freedom. That being said, I know that things are far from perfect here. It is my opinion that we need less government in our lives.
honestman43 2 months ago
@mrwitzigwitzig Ya know what i love about this format? Because I can respont with the following statment.
GO KILL YOURSELF AND ALL FOOLS WHO BELIEVE AS YOU DO. DIE YOU COMMIE BASTARD. YOU FUCKING NUMBNUTS
arlo12345678910 1 month ago
@arlo12345678910 Very impressive use of verbal violence and aggression. To quote Lenin (and no I am far from being a "Commie", just someone who uses his brain and listens attentively to any argument to assess its merit):
"Violence starts where reason ends"
Thanks for demonstrating how you revert to violence without applying reason :-)
(By the way, explain why 10x more likely to die by a firearm in US than West-European average? (That incl.s suicides. 4.5x more likely without suicides)
mrwitzigwitzig 1 month ago
Cars are much more dangerous than guns so does it stand to reason that we should ban cars???
arlo12345678910 1 month ago
@mrwitzigwitzig How about you explain why you're 10x more likley to be a victim of theft, murder (by beating, stabbing), or rape in Europe in comparison to the U.S? I mean surley if guns were such violent tools wouldn't there be MORE crime in the U.S? I mean using your logic we should be the most violent country out there. The fact is The U.K (a country that has very strict gun laws) is rated one of the the most violent countries in Europe and has more then a 5x higher violent crime rate than..
TheVkiller300 1 month ago
@mrwitzigwitzig The U.S. I'll break it down for easy comparison.
Crimes commited per 100,000 people in the U.S is 450-490
Crimes committed per 100,000 people in the U.K is 3,500-3,600
Crimes commited per 100,000 poeple in Austrailia is 1,800-1,900
lol the only country there that doesn't have strict gun laws is the U.S and yet we have the lowest crime rate...HMMMMMMMM? I WONDER why? Fact is guns are used 5x more to defend as opposed to assualt someone.
TheVkiller300 1 month ago
@TheVkiller300 Ha ha ha ha... like talking to a redneck 3year-old:
Alone the 2010 US crime rate for property crime per 100'000 was 2'941!
So WTF are U claiming the overall crime rate was 450-490 per 100'000?!?!?
2010 violent crime rate alone was 403 per 100'000 in US!
By the way overall crime rates are pretty much comparable across modern industrialised countries!!!!!! The main difference is that in the US U're much more likely to get shot.
Learn Ur facts & check them again!
mrwitzigwitzig 1 month ago
@mrwitzigwitzig Alright here we go bud. First please learn to spell and use punctuation before calling another man a "redneck3 year-old".
In 2011 alone the U.S VIOLENT (key word their jr) crime rate per 100,000 people was 560
The U.K was 4,500, Not even CLOSE to comparable.
And the little "you're more likely to be shot in the U.S" deal you pansy anti-gun losers like to use is no different than saying you're more likley to be killed by a falling coconut in malaysia than in Hawaii.
TheVkiller300 1 month ago
@mrwitzigwitzig Point is it's not very fucking likely. Hell, your more likely to be beaten to death in the U.K than you are to be SHOT in the U.S. So take that fucking stupid saying and shove it up your ass you moron.
It's a solid fact that guns are used more than 3x as much to save a life as opposed to assualt or take one. It's also a solid fact that areas with CC and little gun laws are the safest, lowest crime areas in the world. I know my facts boy. Seems you don't.
TheVkiller300 1 month ago
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@TheVkiller300 Ha ha ha ha ha, you redneck 3-year old:
1) Before you criticise my spelling check yours ('malaysia', 'likley', 'your' when you intended to write "you're", 'assualt')... oh yes, I don't use baby US spelling of "criticize", check Oxford English Dictionary for 'criticise' :-)
2) Intentional homicide rate 2010 for US: 4.7 per 100'000. Compare that to 1.2 in Western and Central Europe! Take the former East Block countries with their black markets out of the equation and it's ,1.0!!
mrwitzigwitzig 4 weeks ago
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@TheVkiller300 So redneck 3-year old:
3) Intentional homicide rate of US is approx. 4x higher than Western & Central Europe!
4) Of course US gun crime is higher in gun control areas than areas with no/low gun control! You can't compare these 2 areas/issues for Ur baby argument that guns make safer environments: The no/low gun control areas flood the rest of US w guns, especially via gun fairs/shady dealers bad/nonexistant background checks.
mrwitzigwitzig 4 weeks ago
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@TheVkiller300 Finally redneck 3-year old:
5) So no/low gun control areas have 'better gun crime statistics' at the cost of gun control areas. Hence it's dishonest to treat these 2 areas within US as distinctly separate! Just as US demand for drugs and supply of black market guns is fuelling drug wars in Mexico... so U couldn't treat Mexico's appalling drug gang violence as a purely "mexican" issue.
6) Lesson in comparative statistics: Tell me first what the UK defines as 'violent crime' :-)
mrwitzigwitzig 4 weeks ago
@mctabla Since your argument is you're 10X more likely to be killed by a fiream in the US. Even if your numbers are accurate 1.5 X 10 does not equal 4.3 by any stretch of the imagination. Next how many are random, domestic violence, during the commision of another crime, one violent criminal murdering another violent criminal? Fact is most homicides areare one criminal killing another. That means you are far more less likely to be shot here than you claim, besides having poor math.
LeeScurge 2 months ago
@LeeScurge Life is hard when you can't read?
10x refers to higher likelihood of death by firearm in US tha European average. 4.3x refers to higher likelihood of murder by firearm in US than Europe (excluding for example suicides or accidental deaths etc.) Easy if you can read isn't it?
1st marijuana arrest is violation. But depending on respective state laws, often 3 strikes & U're out! Drug offense prisoners were largest group of Federal inmates (55%) in 2001.
mctabla 2 months ago
@mctabla Life is even harder when you are a complete moron living on another continent making comments on a subject you have no real knowledge or experience in. You contradict yourself and come up with some BS to cover in hopes nobody noticed. You pulled some numbers off on the internet. Listen to people who have something to gain by lying and twisting facts and your dumbass bought it hook line and sinker
LeeScurge 1 week ago
@mctabla 1) In most states possession of a 'little bit' of marijuana is a misdemeanor. You CANNOT go to prison for a misdemeanor. 2) As far as I know 3 strikes applies to violent crime not just felony crimes in all 50 states. Do you have any clue what it takes to get a person charged at the Federal level for drug offenses? Its not for mere possession of a marijuana seed, a gram of cocaine, a single joint, a glass pipe with a little rock in it.
LeeScurge 1 week ago
@LeeScurge
You're right but the laws are still to stiff. It hurt me pretty bad. I live in Texas and was arrested for possession, I had a little more than a joint.
I spent 36 hours in County Jail just being processed and was released on a PR bond. I went to Court, plead guilty. The Judge gave me a 700$ fine, 6 MONTH suspension of my license, and 3 days in Jail but released me on time served.
Taking my license so I can't get to work is counter productive. It's insane
fishblades 6 days ago
@fishblades I dont live in Texas, never been to Texas and not likely to visit anytime soon. I have heard they can be harsh. Where I have found myself, that would most likely get you a ticket and a court date. I doubt a license would've played into it unless it was a DUI related offense but you're in case and I dont know a whole lot about how it works there.
LeeScurge 6 hours ago
@LeeScurge Get your facts right:
Nearly 800,000 Americans were arrested on marijuana charges in 2005.
American taxpayer spends >billion dollars a year to incarcerate citizens for pot. (U.S. Department of Justice's Bureau of Justice Statistics).
According to BJS report, "Drug Use & Dependence, State & Federal Prisoners, 2004," 12.7 % of state inmates & 12.4 % of federal inmates incarcerated for drug violations are serving time for marijuana offenses.
U bet 3 strikes & you're out applies!
mctabla 6 hours ago
@mctabla You get numbers off the internet and think you know something. Have you stopped to ask yourself how I could possibly know anything about any of this?
You didnt answer my question, do you have any idea what it takes to be prosecuted at the federal level for a drug offense? Whats the matter, couldnt find the answer on the internet? I will say it again you CANNOT go to prison for a single joint as you previously stated. Get your facts straight before spewing nonsense.
LeeScurge 6 hours ago
@mctabla Your ignorance is apparent and mildly amusing. You apparently do not understand how the jails and prisons work in the US. There are county jails ran by a county, state prison ran by a state and federal prisons ran by the federal. Misdemeanors are put in jails felonies got to prison. A joint=Misdemeanor=No prison time. Simple enough for you? You dont live it but you read some stuff on the internet and think you know all about it. Get your facts straight, internet genius.
LeeScurge 5 hours ago
@honestman43 & before you do NRA sloganeering US history:
The Founding Fathers instituted gun control laws so intrusive that the NRA today wouldn't support them. Early Americans denied the right to own a gun even to law-abiding people if they failed a loyalty test to the Revolution. The FF also declared that free white men were members of the militia &, as such, were forced to appear with their guns at public ‘musters’ where government officials inspected the weapons & registered them on tbc...
mctabla 4 months ago
@mctabla You really make an ass out of yourself with your assumptions concerning my upcoming comments.
1. The NRA does go too far in certain areas.
2. There is no longer any "revolution" here.
3. Firearms are considered personal property here that are protected as currently interpreted by the Supreme Court..
honestman43 4 months ago
@honestman43 ...public rolls. When pressing public necessity demanded it, the FF were also willing to impress guns from law abiding citizens, even if those citizens were left without guns to defend themselves from a criminal attack. (Read Adam Winkler's book).
So today's US gun identity politics lead by the NRA are a misuse of the Founding Fathers and a distortion of historic reality.
mctabla 4 months ago
@mctabla Today's gun identity is derived from free thinking people (the majority anyway). Adam Winkler is certainly entitled to his own opinions. However, I do not agree with them.
The United States is much different than it was at the time of its birth. As I remember we were kicking the Brits out and did not want a king thinking for us.
I have a number of friends from the UK and they are more than happy with their way of life as I am with mine.
honestman43 4 months ago
@mctabla I havent and wont read thru the whole argument. I just have a point to make. Have you check the source or your numbers? Where the numbers come from to what end those numbers were collected. The point I am trying to make is how many of those firearms deaths were the result of self defense? You know against robbery, serious assault, rape, home invasion burglary, homicide. You're a liar if you claim any of that is only US crime. Fact is anyone can slap together numbers to prove their side
LeeScurge 2 months ago
@mctabla According to the FBI crime stats 14738 people were murdered in the US in 2010 which is a 4.2% decrease from 2009 and 14.8% decrease from 2006. In 2010 4.8 per 100,000 were murdered. Since 2006 the US Supreme Court has made several rulings in favor of gun rights. Does that mean gun ownership is the cause of the decrease. I don't know but I certainly can use that as an argument, can't I? Do those number include justifiable or excusable homicides? I don't know that either
LeeScurge 2 months ago
@mctabla google vol 30. No 2 Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide?
This is the Harvard School of Law study I mentioned earlier. Read it carefully.
honestman43 4 months ago
Guns are cool. If you don't think so come in my house at about 3 am one night and see how one prevents a crime.
362236jm 4 months ago
I admire his frontier mentality, and wanting to kill his own food, but his supposed facts about gun control fall flat on their face in multiple european and asian countries, where handguns are illegal or very restricted, and they have so much lower gun death rates than the USA. Ted just flat out doesn't know his facts.
I agree with the notion that gun control does make it easier for dictators, such as in Nazi Germany, etc, so the militia argument is valid, but rifles are adequate for that.
TheRealCritique 5 months ago
@TheRealCritique To claim that militias stop dictators is ludicrous. It also shows a lack of knowledge of historic facts.
If you take the rise of the Nazis, this was a mind-set finding fertile grounds in centuries old catholic hatred of Jews, massive joblessness (>20%), uncertainties about the recent loss of the Old Order (monarchy/emperor) as well as the frustrations of an unripe democracy (every 2 years a new government).
Hitler never won a majority at elections but strong-armed parliament.
mctabla 5 months ago
@TheRealCritique So irrespective if people had guns or not, the issue was simply one of a nation in disarray & despair. Sadly, Hitler offered a simplistic answer to this need that resonated with about a third of the population. (Remember that the mass extermination of Jews was only decided in 1942. Hitler was elected in 1933 on what was essentially a jobs & nationalism ticket. The 1st violent anti-Jewish incidents 1936).
Todays tea-baggers, hicks & neo-cons would laud a 1933 Hitler.
mctabla 5 months ago
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@mctabla You have no idea what you are talking about
b1kfd 5 months ago
@TheRealCritique Handguns have their place as well.
honestman43 4 months ago
@honestman43 Concerning Germany & China in 1st half 20th Century, getting a feeling of historical context & contingency would serve you well:
Not enough space here but historic principle (ever read Eric Wolf?) is you can't divide social reality of the time into black/white or good/bad or 'the people'/'fascists'. Hitler promised jobs, nat'l unity & pride/discipline. After years of global economic crisis (thanks US), 30% jobless, 1st democracy a mess...
who exactly would you have armed & when?!!
mctabla 4 months ago
If Americans are as racist as you seem to believe, how did Obama get elected? Not only did he get elected, he won by a large margin. He has turned out to be a dismal failure. Many Democrats are unhappy with him. He shows no leadership, he does nothing to bring the people together and he has run up the largest debt the US has ever seen. Yet when someone disagrees with him, you call that person a racist? Do you not remember the hatred people had for Bush? Did they hate white people?
b1kfd 5 months ago
@b1kfd About 1/4 of the adult population voted for Obama. That leaves plenty to snipe at Obama overtly & covertly when they thought they could get away w it. How else do U explain the popularity of shitkicker eg. Glen Beck? Don't try to hide this shameless pack behind 1/4 of Ur voting population.
Oh, & Ur whining comparison w Bush:
Despite Bush doing really stupid things, there was no near the same level of open hatred voiced against him as against Obama... sorry, try selling that to a goat.
mctabla 5 months ago 2
If our government tried to outlaw guns, it would be an utter failure: The majority of police officers in rural areas of the U.S. are also gun enthusiasts, and gun owners are their friends. The cop would come by and ask the gun owner about his guns, and the guy would say "I don't have any guns" the cop would leave, and that would be the end of it. Or in my case I would give the cop that old worthless revolver I have laying around...
b1kfd 5 months ago
You seem like you have no understanding of our culture. By you first comments to me, you believe I am a "hick" just because I am a gun owner and disagree with the direction our President is taking this country. Perhaps you should get your information first-hand instead of believing everything you see on tv.
b1kfd 5 months ago
So let's dream & brainstorm a little:
National law overrides state law (one reason why individual states with more rigid gun laws are suffering is due to proximity of states with lax laws).
1) Ban all gun shops/traders
Carrot:
1) Every gun handed in gets financial reward
2) Hunters can register max. 2 weapons
Stick:
1) After 3 month grace period, unlicensed carrier of a gun faces 2 months jail & US$15000 fine.
2) Criminal using gun in a crime, faces triple the usual sentence.
mctabla 5 months ago
@mctabla I am an avid gun enthusiast, but, for the sake of argument, I'll humor you.
You've overlooked a couple of details
1. The Constitution would have to be changed
2. The 200,000,000 + guns in this country
3. Armed crime already carries a heavy penalty.
4. Prisons are overcrowded with REAL criminals now.
Gun buybacks are great, I would love for them to do a buyback around here, I have a crappy old revolver that's not worth $20 that I'd turn in for the $200 "reward".
b1kfd 5 months ago
@b1kfd Agreed, it would be a huge political project but wouldn't that be a worthy entry into history? Congress has become too negative & passive to dream up pretty much anything.
1) Politicians w balls could amend constitution
2) 200'000'000 guns, yup... that shows you the interest & power of the NRA lobby.
3) Fair enough
4) Prisons are overcrowded yes but too many inmates are victims of oversentencing for 1) three strikes & you're out as well as 2) e.g. minor drug offences (marijuana etc.)
mctabla 5 months ago
@mctabla It would be a tragedy, but it's not going to happen, so I won't be losing any sleep about people tring to take my guns.
1. Where would you find enough of them?
2. The NRA has nothing to do with that figure
3. So you would replace the so-called "oversentenced" crimminals with the tens of millions of law abiding citizens who would suddenly be legislated into lawlessness? I don't think that would work out very well...
b1kfd 5 months ago
@b1kfd Regarding point:
1) It's not 'taking things', it's about a vision of society w/out guns. If European countries can do it... It's not about 'people trying to take Ur guns'... it's a political decision. Sometimes politicians need to make bold decisions. Segregation, women's vote etc. were issues w many states opposing progressive reform. But Washington (eventually) had balls.
2) The NRA has every interest to protect that figure!
3) No problem as U have (eg.) 3 months to hand Ur gun in.
mctabla 5 months ago
@mctabla 1.Sure it's about taking things. It's also about a government's fundamental distrust of it's citizens. Who ever said the US should be like Europe? We aren't the French, nor should we be. While I do agree with you that our elected officials need the fortitude to tackle the important issues, I would probably disagree with you on what those issues are, and how they should be solved.
2. So do law abiding gun owners
3. Not going to happen. Ever.
2.
b1kfd 5 months ago
@b1kfd "It's also about a government's fundamental distrust of it's citizens." Are U saying it's the other way round too, ie. that citizens don't fundamentally trust government?
Why do U then even refer to Urself as citizen? Only makes sense if U accept 1) Ur rights & duties plus 2) the fundamental coexistence of state & society.
In Europe we've a different result of state formation: Cooperation btw. state & society. It's a positive/productive attitude. No fear of 'tyranny' or of loose guns.
mctabla 5 months ago
@mctabla Yes I'm saying that. It's very healthy for the population to have a mistrust of it's government. (Didn't Europe learn anything from the Nazis?) I absolutely accept my "rights and duties" as you put it. One of those rights is to keep and bear arms.
The reason I don't fear tyranny is because of those "loose guns"
I've been to Europe, and it's a great place to visit, but I don't believe my view of freedom would fit in very well over there.
b1kfd 5 months ago
@b1kfd Well, we are as grumpy & critical of government as anyone but we trust the political system and the constitution.
What seems to come across in the discussion with you, is that not only do you distrust government but you also have a distrust in the political system. Because government can be elected in and out of power... so no need for guns as a deterrent of gov't overreach.
So what remains is a citizenry under arms distrusting the general system.
That seems to be the key difference(?)
mctabla 5 months ago
@mctabla Yeah, that's about right. There are several differences between the USA and European countries. One key difference is that there are many different cultures, religions, and nationalities living here, and we all have different ways of thinking. Laws that work in New York don't work in Texas. I trust the Constitution, but there are too many people out there mucking with it. I am suspicious (as anyone should be) of people who desire political power. Who can say what their motives are?
b1kfd 5 months ago
@b1kfd Differences of culture, religion, political system (variations of democracy) make Europe hardly different than US, probably quite a bit more heterogenous: Afterall we're 20+ countries w different languages that on top of that are absorbing large, diverse migrant populations from immediate neighbours: Middle East, E Europe, N Africa.
US risks fragmenting under systemic suspicion: U can't get anything done: Creationism in schools... WTF!? Major infrastructure? Constant partisanship?
mctabla 5 months ago
@mctabla Europe is vastly different than the US. How is all of you new population working out for you? I've seen a lot of cars burning in Europe the past few years.
b1kfd 5 months ago
@b1kfd Ha ha ha ha ha, feeble try. Specifically when and where have you seen "a lot of cars burning in Europe" because of "new population" (immigrants)?
You insinuate a connection, U need to be specific or you look like a silly old racist.
(P.S. in terms of riots, we've all had our fair share don't you think? P.P.S. Our 'new population' dates back decades (early post-war economic migrants) if not centuries (colonies) or millenia (tribal migrations; Celts, Angle-Saxons, Huns, Turks, Romans...)
mctabla 5 months ago
@mctabla What is it with you liberals and accusations of racism? You are just showing to me that in your own heart, you see everything in terms of race, so that would make you the racist. Yes, you have more than your share of riots. I belive those riots would not happen in the areas of our country where firearm ownership is unrestricted. The population of the US is much more diverse than the population of any one European country. You are trying to compare your Continent with a single country.
b1kfd 5 months ago
@b1kfd 1) Within a 2 sentence comment U mention immigrants & burning cars... completely innocent of racism aren't U?
2) Oh please, stupid riot argument!
3) US more diverse? Globalisation tends to even out differences... e.g. we all have immigrants that bring cultural, religious diversity etc. But Europe has 20+ countries with distinct languages, histories, ingrained cultural heritage & far higher levels of immigration. US aims at assimilating. Hell you can't even deal with a black president!?
mctabla 5 months ago
@mctabla What in the does Obama's race have to do with anything? If I have my way, Herman Cain will be the next President. The US is more diverse than any single European country. I stated this before, but you are so bent on labeling me that you must have missed it. Are you telling me that immigration had nothing to do with the riots? If they did not, then I have been misinformed, because all of the news outlets over here were reporting just that. How about you go back to being civil?
b1kfd 5 months ago
@b1kfd Obama: 3 years of public & media frenzy about birth certificate/religion etc. r every bit symptomatic of the failure of substantial part of US population to accept Ur diversity. That kind of witch hunt would b unimagineable in Europe (exception maybe Poland). To an undeniable degree it reflects latent racism.
Riots in Europe reflect struggling socio-economic integration of lower classes (eg. recent UK riots). Immigrants to a degree are a part of that... but not a problem of immigration.
mctabla 5 months ago
@mctabla This only reflects racism to those who look for it everywhere. Demanding to see your President's birth certificate is not a "witch hunt" (not that Idoubted his nationality) Obama was mistrusted by some because our news media was actively cheerleading for Obama, instead of vetting him, as they have done every other candidate for the past 200 +yrs. As for his religion, only a few believed he is a muslim, not that it matters to me what his religion is.
b1kfd 5 months ago
@b1kfd Oh please, how do U espect me to b civil, when U're selling such BS!?
"The news media" does not exist. Depending what U wanted to scapegoat, U could find Ur 'side' with ease. (FOX was pro-Obama!?) So claiming Obama wasn't "vetted by the media" is plain BS. Oh, & after 8 years of Bush I can understand the relief on a certain 'side' to have an intelligent person running for office. So yes, the euphoria was there but as a reflection of a large part of the populace.
Sorry, latent racism.
mctabla 5 months ago
@mctabla You're the one selling bs. Obama would not have been questioned at all if not for Fox News. Bill and Hillary Clinton were both vetted by the media, even though the media were largely sympathetic to the Clinton's political idiology. I am not a fan of Bush, but your implication that he lacks intelligence is incorrect.What's the price of being polite? Do you think insults make your argument stronger, or are you someone who tries to make himself feel better by insulting others?
b1kfd 5 months ago
@b1kfd Ha ha ha, sorry but this is ludicrous: "Obama would not have been questioned at all if not for Fox News".
Are U serious!?!?!?!?! How the hell do U think he could have stood for precidency in the 1st place?! That gave the media & shitkickers like FOX at least 1 year prior to the election to get things sorted out. But no, that 1 year wasn't enough, the shitkickers took another 3 years climaxing with Beck & Trump... both now disgraced (again).
Stop insulting intelligent people w FOX et.al.
mctabla 5 months ago
@b1kfd My 'insults' by the way were focussed at statements (usually using quotes). They were hardly personal. Eg. you can hardly be BS. But Ur statements surely.
& I'm getting tired of constructing arguments only to get evading or even no responses from U. I've responded constructively to every issue & if U can't deal with strong language relating to an issue then keep Ur fake PC... it doesn't even embellish Ur points.
mctabla 5 months ago
@mctabla Seems its possible that you get the same BS about the US that we do about Europe? Why do you even care what our gun control laws are? I dont care what yours are. I quite honestly dont care how you are governed in any way shape or form. You like it, great good for you. Stay over there. Stop trying to make my home like yours. If thats what I wanted I'd pack my stuff and move
LeeScurge 2 months ago
@LeeScurge 3 times and your out... that goes for the possession of marijuana too. That was the point... why would you even assume I was trying to bail out rapists or robbers? Ha ha ha ha.
If you're not too lazy do your own research, check your sources and then let me know what you've learnt.
Self-defence? Well, if my statistics are correct and you claim firearm homicides were because of self-defence, then you must have one hell of a violent, aggressive society.
I care for progress as a human.
mctabla 2 months ago 5
@mctabla You're person that said people were in prison that shouldn't be. Rapists, armed robbers, murders are frequently found in prisons.
Having put some stats together myself I know numbers can be twisted to prove any point you are trying to make. You don't know where I get my information. I do know all that you have 'learnt' has come from the internet.
I asked how many of those numbers could have been a result of self DEFENSE. Did not say nor suggest it was all. You fail..again
LeeScurge 2 months ago
@mctabla I hope English is not your first language and you are using a translator program.
Again people do not go to prison for a joint. Who ever told you that, is a liar. Marijuana in most states is a misdemeanor. You CANNOT go to prison for a misdemeanor. For your own education prison (felony crimes) is not the same as county jail (misdemeanor crimes). There are sentencing guidelines the court must follow for amount of time behind bars.
LeeScurge 2 months ago 2
@mctabla ALL SOCIETYS ARE VIOLENT AND AGRESSIVE.
arlo12345678910 1 month ago
@arlo12345678910 Cool justification for avoidance of progress. Cool justification for violence and aggression.
mrwitzigwitzig 1 month ago
@mrwitzigwitzig HAHA yes it is isn't it.
arlo12345678910 1 month ago
@b1kfd & part of that whining comparison btw Obama & Bush:
Considering the shit Bush got US into (2 wars, massive debt, open disregard of human rights, pushing Supreme Court blatantly to the right, 8 years of not reigning in financial sector etc.) I'm mystified to how Obama is such a 'failure' considering the mess he was left to pick up?
1) Saved US auto industry 2) staved off recession 3) health care reform 4) student loans 5) drawing down Iraq 6) managing Afghanistan 7) consumer protection??
mctabla 5 months ago
@mctabla The level of hatred directed at Obama comes nowhere near what Bush faced. Not even close. You say Bush created "massive debt" but Obama has outspent him by a wide margin. It's obvious to me that you are just another liberal blindly following Obama. You were offended by me saying the US needs a leadership change (Ididn't mention Obama, you ASSSUMED I was talking about him) The one thing you say that has any credibility is that Obama helped out the Auto industry.
b1kfd 5 months ago
@mctabla You must get all of your "information" from the dailykos.com or msnbc. "pushing the Supreme Court to the right"?? Every president appoints Justices based on his political ideology, Obama appointed a liberal, and if he has the chance, he will appoint another liberal. Obama has had 3 years (2 with complete control of Congress) to fix what is wrong and all he's done is make things worse. Staved off a recession?? Really? Tell that to the unemployed. He's Bush lite on foriegn policy
b1kfd 5 months ago
@b1kfd Sotomayor 'liberal'.?! 1) A catholic like the majority of the Supreme Court 2) Take her ruling in favour of Bush abortion organisation financing statute. Obama's candidate is half as partisan as any of Bush's truly conservative appointees.
"3 years to fix what is wrong"... how childish. it took Clinton 8 years to get budget back into big surplus.
W absolute mess Bush gave Obama: 2 wars, financial & economic crisis, huge debt, GOP drifting to the right & ludicrous. Obama is doing ok :-)
mctabla 5 months ago
@mctabla Of course she's liberal, only someone outside of the mainstream would think otherwise. The only way Clinton fixed the budget was by making a hard right turn. Read your history instead of regurgitating far-left talking points and you may get a clue.
The financial crisis was as much (if not more) the fault of Dodd-Frank (both Dems) as it was Bush. Obama has rode the "blame Bush" train for his whole presidency. All his term has gotten us is more debt, more partisanship, and less jobs
b1kfd 5 months ago
Supreme Court Justices have to make rulings based on the Constitution and judicial precedent, not completely on ideology. If Obama is doing so well, why are his poll numbers so poor? Oh yeah, racism, because you seem to thing everyone should blindly follow him, and never criticize him. Bush (and the Democratically-controlled Congress) drove the car into the ditch, Obama (and the Democratically-controlled Congress) are trying to run it over a cliff...
b1kfd 5 months ago
@b1kfd I mourn for the 8 gun crime victims in California.
mctabla 5 months ago
@mctabla As do I.
I also mourn using a tragedy to make a political point... My job requires me to treat gunshot victims. But I'm not foolish enough to blame the gun for the actions of an evil individual. If the gun caused the crime, put it in jail.
b1kfd 5 months ago