Benny Morris: You cannot rely on one sentence in Ilan Pappe's book

[FoolishOrc]

As if Benny Morris is objective, with a wink maybe.

[daniel99103]

well done benny morris!!

[MustaphaEB]

Koran: [17:104] And we said to the Children of Israel afterwards, " scatter and live all over the world…and when the end of the world is near we will gather you again into the Promised Land". Arabs stole that land by way of arms and in violation of that Sura. Just check the source.

[uncleadolf]

Morris was a post-zionist, but now he's a zionist. So, presumably, he's now a post-zionist zionist, or maybe even a post-zionist post-zionist. I read Righteous Victims not long ago, and thought it was pretty good - mostly the early parts - until he got to the intifadas and seemed to be writing from a different planet, let alone a different view. Apparently, the IDF showed great restraint and rarely used live ammuniton. Or when they did, someone was firing at them in amongst the rock chuckers.

[TheSilverSultan4]

this dude is a turd, fuck ahole, hate mongering moron, some of his statements that are made by him are to make him more visible to the public, attention seeking old prune,

[Toutourina]

Blinded is blinded. For 1 min, for 24 hours or for 1 000 years.

Only racist zionists can experiment pain on dogs so that they can use it on palestinian children.

Israel is not making painful scientific test on animals to make weapons to use on israelis but to be used on palestinians.

Ilan Pappe was right letting the world know about Israels real intentions.

[emilram]

@Toutourina Toubourina,put your pajamas and go to sleep...

[bths87]

this is pathetic-ur gonna give one pathetic example where he not even mistranslates but gives one of a few different possible translations for one word about an experiment done on dogs, and you use that to dismiss the book? He says there are many examples like that in pappe's book-and that's the best one he comes up with? this man is a fraud who doesn have the balls to debate real scholars like norman finkelstein. pappe gives extensive, reliable citations for ALL of his claims-hes a true scholar

[meshzzizk]

@bths87 I agree that the example adduced is a pretty flimsy justification for dismissing Pappe. But your other comment isn't accurate and shows a serious lack of familiarity with scholarship on Palestine-- Morris has debated Finkelstein several times (on Russian TV, the Democracy Now radio show, and in print (Journal of Palestine Studies)).  Finkelstein's books are loaded with quotations from Morris's works and Finkelstein's 'Image-and-Reality' is in Morris's bibliography for Righteous Victims.

[davidya72]

@bths87 There many lies in Papes writings

for example Pape says that 1/3 of casualties in intifada were women

that absolutely not true according to official stastics Pappe not historian He is politican using his history backround

[bths87]

im curious-what does benny morris think of "the case for israel?" by dershowitz?

[rulllar]

Good video. Except that even Morris has not been entirely accurate.

Karsh has been critical of the so-called "new historians" for their use (or he views misuse) of facts and their attempt to discard their misrepresentations by sticking on many references in an attempt to create legitimacy.

New historians have been highly critical of him, but that is no surprise. What I find odd is how similar the political views of most new historians is, which makes me question their interpretation.

[emilram]

@rulllar Mr.Rullar,Benny Morris presents history not like an historian but rather like an objective eyewitness both arab or israeli.

[Dream23fb]

I g2g. ttyl

[nevskixx]

"backward and oppressive"-- I would agree that in isolation this appears to be disparaging, but if one considers that say striving for a society with 100% literacy as opposed to a society of between 60-80% illiteracy, in anyone's view one would see one as more advanced and the other as less so. Oppressive usually depends on protected rights. There is certainly a lack of rights for citizens with most Arabs led by despots.

[Dream23fb]

But you're viewing the human rights conditions in the ME as if it occurred in a vacuum. Who supports these authoritative regimes? The United States and Israel. US/Israel are against all secular Arab resistance movements and will continue to support the very regimes they complain about it in their PR games. One would only have to look at the height of Islamic civilization to see that there isn't a resistance to advancement and modernity in the Arab and Muslim world.

[nevskixx]

You love to lay blame. If I say that people in Africa are dying of aids, your response is likely be that this is because the US or Israel did this or that and not consider the point and how to improve. And this applies to every comment I make.

[Dream23fb]

It's important to lay blame. It's called accountability. When Arabs want to reform, the US and Israel makes sure to squash the resistance because it would mean two things:

1. Resistance to Israel with a possible end of its racist rule.

2. Resistance to Israel would be an example to other Arabs to resist against their own oppressive government. Arab dictators don't want that and the US does not want that because of the loss of the control of Arab oil.

I'm blaming US, Israel, and Arab dictators

[nevskixx]

Your arguments are getting confused. Take a break

[Dream23fb]

I think I'm being consistent, but okay.

[Dream23fb]

It should be noted that Benny Morris is an ardent Zionist and a known racist and bigot against Arabs and Muslims. So of course he will reject Ilan Pappe's brilliant book.

[nevskixx]

I have news for you. Morris has a much clearer perspective than Pappe. Listen Dream of what he says about mistranslating Ben Gurion and asserts something to attack Israel. I have told you already what Pappe has had to say about not telling the truth . It is lucky we meet again to discuss this very point. Don't be hoodwinked by an untrustworthy historian. It's nothing to do with Morris' Zionism or otherwise and I told you he is not racist and why.

[Dream23fb]

Hi nevskixx. Benny Morris has written some good books, particularly "The Birth of the Palestinian refugee problem, 1947-1949". "1948" is good too, but with problems. His bias against Arabs in the book is quite disturbing. Palestinian resistance against Zionism is antisemitism instead of a legitimate struggle for independence. Plan D did not "intend" to expel the Arabs. That's like David Irving saying Hitler did not "intend" to kill the Jews. He always justified the Zionist killings of Arabs.

[nevskixx]

Hi Dream. It's no surprise that after the war some of the worst Nazi war criminals found refuge in Arabia. It is independently well documented and how many Arabs expressed intense antisemitic tendencies, not least the grand Mufti. Yes it is disturbing , but not from the reason you give

[nevskixx]

Nor can Irving act as a comparator to a military Plan. Irving is a holocaust denier whose distortions service the very types who would have no hesitation in doing it all again.

[nevskixx]

Plan D was a plan to clear any threat to Jewish settlement and involved in some instances evacuating villages and settlements that were then perceived as threats. Many have viewed such force as questionable and in a few cases excessive. It is however wrong to deduce that this was a blueprint for the total annihalation of the arab presence as many detractors try to lay blame

[nevskixx]

Conversely, if indeed it was supposed to be ethnic cleansing, how come those who stayed behind were not pushed out?

[Dream23fb]

No military plan is perfect in real-time. In fact, those that "stayed behind" are proof of the plan. Zionists did their best not to discriminate against Palestinian Christians as to not agitate the Church. If the expulsion was simply a result of war (we know it took place before the 48 war), then the sampling would have been more even w/ respect to the religious percentages at the time. The fact that it wasn't shows it was an intelligently designed plan.

[nevskixx]

Dream, you are showing a very weak hand I'm sorry to tell you.Prior to WWll 1/3 of the pop of the Czech lands was ethnic German. After the war 3million were expelled leaving only 40000 (0.5%)in today's C Republic. That is what happens when a government systematically expells an unwelcome ethnic group. Arabs today makes up 20% of Israel's pop.

[Dream23fb]

Not really. As Benny Morris admitted, he wishes Zionists did a better job in the ethnic cleansing so that they didn't have to deal with the Palestinian "problem". That's how Israel views the Palestinians, not as humans, but as a problem. If it weren't for the ethnic cleansing, there would be A LOT more Palestinians in Israel today. There are exact numbers, but I don't have them memorized.

[Dream23fb]

This is the spin. Read Zionist quotes from the time (political leaders, generals, etc.) that explain their intention. It was a demographic tool to colonize the area. It's why Israel is still seen as a European colony in Palestine.

[Dream23fb]

I wasn't equating Plan D with the Holocaust. Just comparing similar made-up distinctions to justify two wrongs.

[Dream23fb]

I guess you've never read about the Nazi-Zionist connections in Hannah Ardent's "Eichmann in Jerusalem."

[nevskixx]

I have read Hannah Arendt's book many years ago. Your point? (I can guess, but I do not want to be too presumptuous).

[Dream23fb]

If you read it, then you know what I'm talking about it.

[nevskixx]

I'm inviting you to reveal your point?

[Dream23fb]

My point: Zionism is an ideology that lacks principles. From the Zionist-Nazi collaboration to accepting the support from anti-Semites such as Egyptian Nazi dictator Sadat, the only standard for Zionists is the support of Israel.

[nevskixx]

First of all it's a shallow point. It generalised statement about Jews who tried to save Jews but failed. Sadat wa indeed a Nazi sympathiser in the earlier years, but in later years he saw a vision for Egypt and he was the leader of Egypt who courageosly took a step to end conflict and regain the Sinai. The agreement cost him his life. Muslim Brotherhood to thank for that who are no Jew lovers .

[Dream23fb]

He has a nasty impulse of describing Arabs in terms of "jihad". From 1948, "Even Christian Arabs appear to have adopted the Jihadi discourse." Really Morris? George Habash, Azmi Bisharah were motivated by jihad? It's typical of Morris. He relishes in describing Arabs and Muslims as child-like and backward. He also enjoys to overrate the strength of the Arabs and underrate the strength of Zionist forces at the time in order to emphasize the courage of the Jews versus the big, bad Arabs.

[nevskixx]

He refers to it as "discourse." Quite obvious that the concept of Jihad does not exist in Christianity. In the same way one can partake in antisemitic discourse without being neccessarily antisemitic. The result can be the same.

[Dream23fb]

The concept of jihad (self-struggle, striving) does exist in Christianity.

Luke 13:24

John 18:35-36

Timothy 6:12

Peter 3:14

Peter 1:5-7

But that's not the point. The point is that using "jihad" is a tool to deflect attention at the real motives of what cause terrorism in Israel/Palestine. It's a charged term that most think means "holy war" (it doesn't) that's used to dismiss the Palestinian struggle as nothing more than as a crazed, antisemitic, irrational movement.

[nevskixx]

The Palestinian struggle as I see it is much less about wanting a state but wanting what the Palestinians will not be given Dream.

Today's leaders play the long game. Crazy in my view since tthis brings no hope. Antisemitic certainly. Irrational , probably less so. Someone is making money. Unless there is an unequivocal acceptance of Israel's right to exist, this state of affairs will continue.

[Dream23fb]

Well, let's think of about this. If Palestinians recognize Israel's "right to exist", it would mean two things:

1. Accepting the history of the creation of the state of Israel, including the ONGOING Nakba.

2. Approving of all the Israeli actions, bordering on terrorism, used against the Palestinians and Israel's neighbors.

Recognizing Israel gives Israel legitimacy for its racism and military actions. Palestinians will never recognize a colonial settlement in Palestine and they shouldn't.

[nevskixx]

No. It would mean the birth of a Palestinian state with fully recognised rights to its citizens to determine its future. Cooperation.Improved education. Employment. Sharing food and water . Scientific research to improve health for all in the region, a cessation of violence. An end to bloodshed. That's what it would mean.

[Dream23fb]

That's quite a romantic view you have. A Palestinian "state" would be an awkward entity that would be under the control of Israel. No compensation. No right of return. It's not a just solution.

[nevskixx]

Oh?

[Dream23fb]

Just look at the joke of a proposal of a Palestinian "state" during Camp David. How can you create a Palestinian state when the settlements control 40% of the region? It's only a maneuver to delay the obvious: the acceptance of Palestinians and the end of a racist "Jewish state".

[nevskixx]

I remember you acknowledging quite clearly that you partly held Arafat responsible for being a bad negotiator. Correct?

[Dream23fb]

Yes. Arafat was a bad negotiator and a corrupt leader.

[nevskixx]

I agree, Some compensation of course.

[Dream23fb]

The only long-lasting peace solution would be for Israelis and Palestinians to live on the same land (Israel + West Bank + Gaza) with EQUAL rights. I would have never thought that a secular, democratic, multicultural state would be so controversial.

[Dream23fb]

Morris was once asked about his bias against Arabs and Muslims and he explains that it is not that he's against Arabs and Muslims, I just find their culture backward and oppressive. How absurd is that? That's like an anti-Semite saying he has no problem with Jews, just Jewish culture. Or a racist saying he has no problem with blacks, just the black culture. The distinction does not exist.