Its a sad day, when these so called 'high brow' entertainment reviewers think that art should not be challenging, and shouldn't be a struggle.
Music is Art! Art is supposed to convey human life, the complexity of ourselves, our emotions, our feelings of why we are on this earth. Not for pure entertainment! Music shouldn't be pleasant to listen to all the time, life isn't.
If you actually listened, Birtwistle's music provides all these emotions, and provides interesting sonorities with it!
Here are three people, one is from the musicals tradition,therefore clueless on opera. the american dude has, quite frankly has no idea on music. and the woman on there is only concerned with not hear the libretto. They pan this opera, and I don't disagree with them, but the points they make a worse than just misguided and the red jumper bellend get's it right when he declares that he "just doesn't get the music" and there is no-one musically intelligent there to explain why it's not great!
This panel of critics should be ashemed of acting like yahoos and pronouncing verdicts on an art form they are simply not minimmaly qualified to vocalize a professional opinion about. "Oh, I cannot understand the words", oh well, can you get the words at a Handel opera? My God, what pretentious babble.
it says alot that the next review was scheduled to be gone with the wind: the musical. thought the costume was great, the staging wonderful, the singers amazing and the music terrifyingly beautiful.
Agree with mostly comments here: very disappointing to see such a poor panel review this like they expected it to be a pop concert. In my view, although Birtwistle's music may not be for everyone, sometimes things aren't heard/viewed favorably the first time. I love this work, but a long time ago I might have dismissed something like this as well (or least it might have declared that I didn't understand what was going on). I would encourage this panel to listen to it again or a few more times
"You don't need anyone to 'explain' West Side Story."
"It's not music, just sound effects."
Three of the most staggeringly stupid things I've ever heard said on the BBC about modern music. This panel would have been more at home on Lloyd Webber's 'Any Dream Will Do'.
Not Newsnight's finest hour....i thought it would be better to get people to talk about subjects they have a modicum of knowledge on. Not the case here.
@allegramente5000 ...or just plain sloppy - like using a a label/insult and then saying you don't like people who use labels - In fact the term "modernism" is very rarely used in discorures about modern music.
Best panel of experts Newsnight can come up with?May be the reason that Classical Music is dead or dying. I squirmed with embarrassed almost as much as Martha Kearney. American chappie (sadly the intellectual heavyweight of the group) if you have been going to the opera since the late 60s and your point of reference is the movie Beowolf I suspect you are vastly overselling yourself as an opera buff. Don't think old Birtwhistle will be jumping under any buses because you don't like his opera.
Whoa! This is critique from people that aren't willing to open their ears to this wonderful music. I suppose this is because fashion dictates we must not think when it comes to art, only recieve. The fact that you can interpret the fantastic score any way you like makes the opera such a personal experience
Eh?! I'm not debating whether they speak truth or not, I'm merely suggesting that the people asked to discuss the opera in the programme are not capable of doing so due to their closed-minded prejudices about anything new and different. If I said "Karl Jenkins is crap", I'd be being honest to myself but I'd also be a closed-minded fool for failing to consider those who find enjoyment in Jenkins' music.
Well maybe they're not closed minded. I admit some ridiculous comments were made-the 'Guys and Dolls' comparison made me laugh. And the woman suggesting the singers shouldn't sing like that!
Can you understand why someone might find this music ugly though?
Yes, it is ugly music. The story of the minotaur is an ugly story and the minotaur itself is an ugly character. It would make no sense to have a Rachmaninov score to accompany this grizzly tale. A lot of contemporary music seeks to be ugly and disturbing, but all contemporary music seeks to be interesting and thought provoking. The opera, I thought, was a good example of a cohesion of artistic ideas resulting in a pleasurable experience, even though the music set out to be unpleasurable!
Glad you liked it. I've had a look at the clips from youtube but they're too small to get much of an idea of what the opera is like as a whole but I hear Messiaen's influence and I'm an ardent Messiaen fan however I don't know any of Birtwistle's work. If I get a chance to see it I will.
to paraphrase waht someone once said about rock journalism, behold three cretins talking crap about something they don't understand for the amusement of morons.
@InveterateCrier You might be thinking of a Frank Zappa quote, "Rock journalism is people who can't write, interviewing people who can't talk, in order to provide articles for people who can't read. "
Amazing - they choose three people who are obviously totally uninformed and totally unable to say anything intelligent about modern music. What a debacle!
Bravo to the men here for finally saying that modern opera is killing all respect for music. I myself as a composer who sits down to acctually take time to write music instead of randomly bashing a piano and saying 'that'll do' find it REALLY sickening that these people are still getting away with writing this crap. Random bursts of dischords everywhere is something I'd happily do. I could turn out four opera's a week, if it wouldn't be like shutting my soul in a black void of self torment.
'Randomly bashing a piano'....goodness, have even SEEN one of Birtwistle's scores? The man's working at unimaginable levels of harmonic and rhythmic complexity. Trust me, a lot of artistry and craftsmanship go into this music, more than you think.
Sheesh, if writing a 'modern' opera is so darn easy, I'd love to see you do it!
Saying that it takes more time just makes it worse when the same effects could be produced by as I said 'bashing a piano'.
Modern Opera is killing all that our presidents worked for. Mozart, Rossini, Monteverdi; all great composers of Opera - may the others forgive me but I can't mention all of them - and people find it hard to live up to the standards set by them. So now comes the Frankenstien Monster of music, Modern Opera. And I can see why they do it, I just can't see why anyone lets them.
3 people who have never listened, really listened to a piece of music (especially one over 3 minutes), not tapping your foot to it, not having it on your ipop dwhile you rush to your next meeting, but really listened to it, possibly sat down and gave it their undivided attention
Who are these people? This is unbelievable - they are all philistines. Sure Birtwhistle isn't easy listening, but since when has music had to be easy? It is complex, a new way of listening, and as for Joe Queenan who seems to embody the close-minded view of opera and modern classical music, nothing is forced upon anyone: culture should be challenging. There is no point comparing opera to Sondheim etc, it is a different medium. They do need a music critic on this show - damn fools
I find this clip astonishing, indeed shocking. The ignorance and small-mindedness of these people. Would any other major figure in contemporary art get such short shrift? Unbelievable. The reason, I think, lies in fact that we live in a literary culture, dominated by the word. You can talk about novels, you can talk about visual art, film, etc. But can you really talk about music? Popular music, yes, but contemporary classical music? They just don't have the intellectual or technical vocabulary.
They understand Birtwistle,but they are jealous,and want to keep him down..I do agree on getting someone who can comprened music on the program! Get Knussen in there at least!
Can I ask a serious question - no disrespect to Bertwisle or anything:
Can anyone who has seen this opera honestly distinguish between the music of one scene and another? That's the aspect I found most bizarre of all, coming from a classical opera background. I can't honestly imagine 'listening' to Bertwistle's music outside the context of an opera. There were moments where different instruments appearead, but mostly i heard an anonymous if evocative mush of sound.
Listen for a while not knowing ,then knowing...It is a wall of sound.. The first time listening to a Birtwistle piece-not easy! But you will get it! Excellent question..
That's a really good answer, actually. Exactly the attitude you should adopt when coming to his music. But to be honest I think some of his instrumental music would offer easier, more immediate access. Something like 'Secret Theatre', for example, or 'The Triumph of Time'.
I think that there is more inside music than the majority of people actually look for.
People generally look to music to mirror and amplify their emotions, so they latch onto certain lyrics (and maybe chord changes) to make them feel like the music means something especially for them.
The types of people who do this could not gain pleasure out of a piece of 'absolute music' (music written for the sake of being music) because they cannot listen to music on its own and experience the beauty or transcendence of the rhythms or harmonic movements.
Therefore these listeners do not know how to listen to Birtwistle's music, they do not know what to get out of it as they do not have developed enough ears to appreciate the other-worldly chromatic harmonies and his very tight and well thought out structures.
Of course everyone's experience of Birstwistle is subjective, but it helps if you know how to appreciate it.
These people might as well go and review a 3D film without the 3D glasses on and complain about how it was too blurry.
I agree entirely. Newsnight Review is the only allegedly 'highbrow' arts programme on UK television, so it is a very sad state of affairs if this is the way they approach contemporary classical music.
@Schumcintyre Oh come off it will you - they tried their best - one even said they loved it - they tried and failed to get it - and after all - isn't that the point as Adorno argued - it is working because they don't get it - if they did get it - or liked it - it would not be working. I think Harrison Bertwistle does have something to say about society but it is the same thing that Schoenberg and Kokoschka said in 1909 -
Absolutely. The arguments put over by the panel are just ignorant. It's like asking a bunch of children to discuss the merits of Yves Klein. How irritating.
@JeeRant That is not a defense as you well know - you have to a willing victim to be eaten by the bull headed monster of the ghost of modernism - you have to believe.
Its a sad day, when these so called 'high brow' entertainment reviewers think that art should not be challenging, and shouldn't be a struggle.
Music is Art! Art is supposed to convey human life, the complexity of ourselves, our emotions, our feelings of why we are on this earth. Not for pure entertainment! Music shouldn't be pleasant to listen to all the time, life isn't.
If you actually listened, Birtwistle's music provides all these emotions, and provides interesting sonorities with it!
JamesAlexanderGale 6 months ago
Here are three people, one is from the musicals tradition,therefore clueless on opera. the american dude has, quite frankly has no idea on music. and the woman on there is only concerned with not hear the libretto. They pan this opera, and I don't disagree with them, but the points they make a worse than just misguided and the red jumper bellend get's it right when he declares that he "just doesn't get the music" and there is no-one musically intelligent there to explain why it's not great!
ddimace1 9 months ago
Compares it to the New York Dolls... Bellend lol
daveisgr81 9 months ago
This panel of critics should be ashemed of acting like yahoos and pronouncing verdicts on an art form they are simply not minimmaly qualified to vocalize a professional opinion about. "Oh, I cannot understand the words", oh well, can you get the words at a Handel opera? My God, what pretentious babble.
viandante 11 months ago
it says alot that the next review was scheduled to be gone with the wind: the musical. thought the costume was great, the staging wonderful, the singers amazing and the music terrifyingly beautiful.
liamhodgebane 11 months ago
Agree with mostly comments here: very disappointing to see such a poor panel review this like they expected it to be a pop concert. In my view, although Birtwistle's music may not be for everyone, sometimes things aren't heard/viewed favorably the first time. I love this work, but a long time ago I might have dismissed something like this as well (or least it might have declared that I didn't understand what was going on). I would encourage this panel to listen to it again or a few more times
Chavezchen 1 year ago
Fuckers! They know nada! It was stunning. Ask yourself, what do you want music to be?
jamesaellis 1 year ago
Dude... I feel ashamed for them =S how dare they to review a great contempo work when with their education they can only review Disney's movies????
miguelriveraibanez 1 year ago
"I was just waIiting for it to end."
"You don't need anyone to 'explain' West Side Story."
"It's not music, just sound effects."
Three of the most staggeringly stupid things I've ever heard said on the BBC about modern music. This panel would have been more at home on Lloyd Webber's 'Any Dream Will Do'.
whatswrongwithworld 1 year ago
So stupid persons ! I blame you ! back to school ! and thank you to Sir Birtwistle for the strong intergrity from his music !
fcyeznikian 1 year ago
Not Newsnight's finest hour....i thought it would be better to get people to talk about subjects they have a modicum of knowledge on. Not the case here.
allegramente5000 1 year ago
@allegramente5000 ditto
IrishClaudius 1 year ago
I'm presuming this is the first opera they've ever seen. And the last time they've been asked to comment.
samautumnwood 1 year ago
Three cretins
crowe 1 year ago
@crowe yes that really is one of the things modernism is about saying all are mad but you or daft or simply dear colleagues and friends - out of date
IrishClaudius 1 year ago
@IrishClaudius your posts remind me never trust the labels as it encourages rather sloppy listening habits.
There's such a huge variety of music which comes under this unhelpful category called modernism-some of it I Love,some of I can't stand.
Of Birtwistle's music there is also considerable variety- I didn't much care for the Minotaur but I very much like 'Silbury Air'
allegramente5000 1 year ago
@allegramente5000 ...or just plain sloppy - like using a a label/insult and then saying you don't like people who use labels - In fact the term "modernism" is very rarely used in discorures about modern music.
IrishClaudius 1 year ago
The opera, I thought, was a load of bull.
fremsley001 1 year ago
WOW!!! HAHAHA, this is comical!
saladshootavvv 2 years ago
Best panel of experts Newsnight can come up with?May be the reason that Classical Music is dead or dying. I squirmed with embarrassed almost as much as Martha Kearney. American chappie (sadly the intellectual heavyweight of the group) if you have been going to the opera since the late 60s and your point of reference is the movie Beowolf I suspect you are vastly overselling yourself as an opera buff. Don't think old Birtwhistle will be jumping under any buses because you don't like his opera.
joarean 2 years ago 2
An error of judgement of Newsnight to invite these people to talk about the Minotour as they don`t know what the hell they're talking about.
quelbop 2 years ago
Whoa! This is critique from people that aren't willing to open their ears to this wonderful music. I suppose this is because fashion dictates we must not think when it comes to art, only recieve. The fact that you can interpret the fantastic score any way you like makes the opera such a personal experience
EdwardWhelanPiano 2 years ago
'people that aren't willing to open their ears to this wonderful music'
Maybe they're just being honest....
Waldvogel91 2 years ago
Eh?! I'm not debating whether they speak truth or not, I'm merely suggesting that the people asked to discuss the opera in the programme are not capable of doing so due to their closed-minded prejudices about anything new and different. If I said "Karl Jenkins is crap", I'd be being honest to myself but I'd also be a closed-minded fool for failing to consider those who find enjoyment in Jenkins' music.
EdwardWhelanPiano 2 years ago
Well maybe they're not closed minded. I admit some ridiculous comments were made-the 'Guys and Dolls' comparison made me laugh. And the woman suggesting the singers shouldn't sing like that!
Can you understand why someone might find this music ugly though?
Waldvogel91 2 years ago
Yes, it is ugly music. The story of the minotaur is an ugly story and the minotaur itself is an ugly character. It would make no sense to have a Rachmaninov score to accompany this grizzly tale. A lot of contemporary music seeks to be ugly and disturbing, but all contemporary music seeks to be interesting and thought provoking. The opera, I thought, was a good example of a cohesion of artistic ideas resulting in a pleasurable experience, even though the music set out to be unpleasurable!
EdwardWhelanPiano 2 years ago
Glad you liked it. I've had a look at the clips from youtube but they're too small to get much of an idea of what the opera is like as a whole but I hear Messiaen's influence and I'm an ardent Messiaen fan however I don't know any of Birtwistle's work. If I get a chance to see it I will.
Waldvogel91 2 years ago
to paraphrase waht someone once said about rock journalism, behold three cretins talking crap about something they don't understand for the amusement of morons.
InveterateCrier 2 years ago
@InveterateCrier You might be thinking of a Frank Zappa quote, "Rock journalism is people who can't write, interviewing people who can't talk, in order to provide articles for people who can't read. "
007ifyable 1 year ago
Amazing - they choose three people who are obviously totally uninformed and totally unable to say anything intelligent about modern music. What a debacle!
jowate 2 years ago 8
Bravo to the men here for finally saying that modern opera is killing all respect for music. I myself as a composer who sits down to acctually take time to write music instead of randomly bashing a piano and saying 'that'll do' find it REALLY sickening that these people are still getting away with writing this crap. Random bursts of dischords everywhere is something I'd happily do. I could turn out four opera's a week, if it wouldn't be like shutting my soul in a black void of self torment.
LordCriton 2 years ago
'Randomly bashing a piano'....goodness, have even SEEN one of Birtwistle's scores? The man's working at unimaginable levels of harmonic and rhythmic complexity. Trust me, a lot of artistry and craftsmanship go into this music, more than you think.
Sheesh, if writing a 'modern' opera is so darn easy, I'd love to see you do it!
JeeRant 2 years ago
Comment removed
LordCriton 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Saying that it takes more time just makes it worse when the same effects could be produced by as I said 'bashing a piano'.
Modern Opera is killing all that our presidents worked for. Mozart, Rossini, Monteverdi; all great composers of Opera - may the others forgive me but I can't mention all of them - and people find it hard to live up to the standards set by them. So now comes the Frankenstien Monster of music, Modern Opera. And I can see why they do it, I just can't see why anyone lets them.
LordCriton 2 years ago
3 people who have never listened, really listened to a piece of music (especially one over 3 minutes), not tapping your foot to it, not having it on your ipop dwhile you rush to your next meeting, but really listened to it, possibly sat down and gave it their undivided attention
ChimpJackson 2 years ago
QUEENAN!!
Tron1276 3 years ago
Oh bollocks - they'd just finished talking about In Bruges. Love that film. Is that review anywhere?
PurushaDesa 3 years ago
Who are these people? This is unbelievable - they are all philistines. Sure Birtwhistle isn't easy listening, but since when has music had to be easy? It is complex, a new way of listening, and as for Joe Queenan who seems to embody the close-minded view of opera and modern classical music, nothing is forced upon anyone: culture should be challenging. There is no point comparing opera to Sondheim etc, it is a different medium. They do need a music critic on this show - damn fools
TennysonShallott11 3 years ago
they needed a composer on for this. these lot are fools. i saw the opera on the tv. i loved it!!!!
jamesaellis 3 years ago
In order to understand Birtwistle's music you have to do this, and only this: turn your ears into EYES. Then you'll get it.
SecretTheatre 3 years ago
I find this clip astonishing, indeed shocking. The ignorance and small-mindedness of these people. Would any other major figure in contemporary art get such short shrift? Unbelievable. The reason, I think, lies in fact that we live in a literary culture, dominated by the word. You can talk about novels, you can talk about visual art, film, etc. But can you really talk about music? Popular music, yes, but contemporary classical music? They just don't have the intellectual or technical vocabulary.
SecretTheatre 3 years ago 2
They understand Birtwistle,but they are jealous,and want to keep him down..I do agree on getting someone who can comprened music on the program! Get Knussen in there at least!
Excellent work by Harrison Birtwistle!
galas06 3 years ago
Can I ask a serious question - no disrespect to Bertwisle or anything:
Can anyone who has seen this opera honestly distinguish between the music of one scene and another? That's the aspect I found most bizarre of all, coming from a classical opera background. I can't honestly imagine 'listening' to Bertwistle's music outside the context of an opera. There were moments where different instruments appearead, but mostly i heard an anonymous if evocative mush of sound.
bluecobalt27 3 years ago
You can...Just relax your body,mind...ears.
Listen for a while not knowing ,then knowing...It is a wall of sound.. The first time listening to a Birtwistle piece-not easy! But you will get it! Excellent question..
galas06 3 years ago
That's a really good answer, actually. Exactly the attitude you should adopt when coming to his music. But to be honest I think some of his instrumental music would offer easier, more immediate access. Something like 'Secret Theatre', for example, or 'The Triumph of Time'.
SecretTheatre 3 years ago
I'm confused at how they didn't have an educated music critic with them to explain the context of the opera.
They have Mark Kermode on when they review films, why not have someone on with an informed opinion on for music?
Sweatybus 3 years ago 2
Comment removed
TheBlackPage1 3 years ago
I think that there is more inside music than the majority of people actually look for.
People generally look to music to mirror and amplify their emotions, so they latch onto certain lyrics (and maybe chord changes) to make them feel like the music means something especially for them.
Sweatybus 3 years ago
The types of people who do this could not gain pleasure out of a piece of 'absolute music' (music written for the sake of being music) because they cannot listen to music on its own and experience the beauty or transcendence of the rhythms or harmonic movements.
Sweatybus 3 years ago
Therefore these listeners do not know how to listen to Birtwistle's music, they do not know what to get out of it as they do not have developed enough ears to appreciate the other-worldly chromatic harmonies and his very tight and well thought out structures.
Of course everyone's experience of Birstwistle is subjective, but it helps if you know how to appreciate it.
These people might as well go and review a 3D film without the 3D glasses on and complain about how it was too blurry.
Sweatybus 3 years ago
Clearly Birtwistle's music is not for everyone, but these people are simply not qualified to be reviewing it.
JeeRant 3 years ago 9
I agree entirely. Newsnight Review is the only allegedly 'highbrow' arts programme on UK television, so it is a very sad state of affairs if this is the way they approach contemporary classical music.
Schumcintyre 3 years ago 2
@Schumcintyre Oh come off it will you - they tried their best - one even said they loved it - they tried and failed to get it - and after all - isn't that the point as Adorno argued - it is working because they don't get it - if they did get it - or liked it - it would not be working. I think Harrison Bertwistle does have something to say about society but it is the same thing that Schoenberg and Kokoschka said in 1909 -
IrishClaudius 1 year ago
Absolutely. The arguments put over by the panel are just ignorant. It's like asking a bunch of children to discuss the merits of Yves Klein. How irritating.
MrMakeDo 3 years ago
@JeeRant That is not a defense as you well know - you have to a willing victim to be eaten by the bull headed monster of the ghost of modernism - you have to believe.
IrishClaudius 1 year ago