Sorry, dear Sirs, but this is noz a good example of Bunkai or even application. We should follow the kata, but not using one to one techniques (forinstance example 6 and 8 are just ridiculous and dangerous, if you do like this in combat. Maybe you should study a bit deeper and find out, what exit-technique, choke or throw could be possible recorded in the kata. With respect, oss!
@hjnorris there is no such thing as the "standard" bunkai. at first its used to train beginners to "imagine" something while doing kata. later creativity and imagining and practicing progressively more complex possibilities is most important. there are actually 3 levels. bunkai is never prescribed, it's fluid, and conditional. The goal is to get beyond a standard bunkai to the point where it is nothing and everything at the same time.
@joeykarateka - Sorry, but most Shitoryu groups have standard bunkai that they expect everyone to know and perform, and unless I am mistaken, that is Shitokai bunkai as shown on the shitokai video tapes.
Having standardized bunkai puts everyone in the system on the same starting page. Oyo is another matter, and is a case for your personal expression, exploration and evolves over time.
@hjnorris no need to say "sorry". you reinforce the same point that "standardizing" bunkai is done for instructional purposes, it is a means to an end, the end being no specific prescription of what the movements in the kata really are. It's a good idea to explore possibilities when teaching though, so we agree that it may be a useful strategy. I just think too many schools get so rigid with it that students loose sight of the big picture which is not to be limited by a "standard". thank you.
Just a question, why do most standardized bunkai have movements that are inefficent, unnecessary, and violate the principles of good self-defense? The bunkai here, especially where the back hand is behind you to do a low block, makes no sense. First of all, dropping the hand in a gedan barai to block a kick is ineffective, and leave the uppertorso open for an easy counter. Secondly, why pose with the back hand, leaving the body even more vunerable? All of his vital...
points are exposed. Third, shouldn't basic, teaching bunkai reinforce proper principles of self-defense. Otherwise, the beginning black belt has bad habits that have to be unlearned in order to protect himself against the average, untrained fighter. You've ingrained poor principles into your muscle memory.
@ronin752 I did not comment on this particular bunkai. You said this was the standard Chinto bunkai. I said there is no such thing as a "standard" bunkai. Traditionaly there are 3 levels, all different from simple to complex, and they vary from style to style. Of course they should be based on good self-defense!! All I said was you shouldn't have a narrow view of bunkai because different styles have different philosophies and methodology and it is best to have an open and fluid mind.
@ronin752 I did not criticize nor defend this particular bunkai precisely because it is subjective. Many old Asian Grand Masters differed in their opinions which is why there are so many interpretations, and no one can say anything is "standard". My issue is with your use of the word "standard bunkai". I will not comment one way or the other about this one precisely for the reasons I explained. No one has all the answers to what is effective and what isn't and to pretend one does is arrogant.
I am really not trying to criticize this particular bunkai either, and a major part of my response is that I have just been in a bit of a bad mood. My bad mood is due to completely ineffective applications and explanations that are given to westerners to make a buck. Now, from a self-defense standpoint, movements that leave vital points on the body exposed are counterproductive to self defense. I don't see the purpose of teaching that way at any level, whether it is
@ronin752 your right. there is much "crap" being taught in commercial schools in every city. we just have to keep traditional self defense alive and teach others the difference between commercial karate and real karate.
Whether it is shoden level, chuden level, or okuden level. I am a traditional karateka, and I have seen organizations of high ranking dans, as high as 8th dan, who have no better explanation of the kata than what is shown here. Hey, if we can not look critically at bunkai, and adapt our understanding to sound reasoning, then our art is dead, and we have exactly what Bruce Lee called a "classical mess."
@ronin752 can I ask... if bunkai means 'application' why do we apply techniques against karate-style attacks? That would presume that the kata were devised to be used against other karateka and not untrained street thugs, drunks, robbers, hell even unruly satsuma samurai. If the latter, then why do we practice ANY application against karate based attacks? Whether omote, oyo, or okuden bunkai. I know which theory I subscribe to. Which is why I don't practice applications against karate attacks.
@bertthepickle right on!!! I think the reason most traditional schools apply bunkai against karate-style attacks is because in the time when the katas were developed, part of the focus was in fact to defend yourself against others who also knew some form of okinawa te or other martial art. But I totally agree it's more important to practice against street attacks and in particular against different weapons (knives, clubs, etc.).
@ronin752 you mean omote, oyo and okuden. Yes, I totally agree that we should "look critically at it and adapt our understanding to sound reasoning" which translates to: bunkai cannot be standardized. You are now contradicting what you had previously said, that there is a "standard" bunkai. I agree with you on this statement.
@ronin752 also, we must look critically at bunkai, but it is also counterproductive to be absolutist about it. Different systems have different philosophies, some are trash and others are not. But just because it's different doesn't necessarily make it trash. I take from every application I see what I think is useful, and dismiss what I think is not. And that varies based on my background, my body type, my strengths and weaknesses. Nothing is standard.
Sorry, dear Sirs, but this is noz a good example of Bunkai or even application. We should follow the kata, but not using one to one techniques (forinstance example 6 and 8 are just ridiculous and dangerous, if you do like this in combat. Maybe you should study a bit deeper and find out, what exit-technique, choke or throw could be possible recorded in the kata. With respect, oss!
MrWintersho 5 months ago
unfortunately they are not kidding this is the sport bunkai not self defense bunkai
thekempoguys 2 years ago
That's the standard Shitokai bunkai for Chinto, performed at slow speed.
hjnorris 3 years ago
@hjnorris there is no such thing as the "standard" bunkai. at first its used to train beginners to "imagine" something while doing kata. later creativity and imagining and practicing progressively more complex possibilities is most important. there are actually 3 levels. bunkai is never prescribed, it's fluid, and conditional. The goal is to get beyond a standard bunkai to the point where it is nothing and everything at the same time.
joeykarateka 1 year ago
@joeykarateka - Sorry, but most Shitoryu groups have standard bunkai that they expect everyone to know and perform, and unless I am mistaken, that is Shitokai bunkai as shown on the shitokai video tapes.
Having standardized bunkai puts everyone in the system on the same starting page. Oyo is another matter, and is a case for your personal expression, exploration and evolves over time.
hjnorris 1 year ago
@hjnorris no need to say "sorry". you reinforce the same point that "standardizing" bunkai is done for instructional purposes, it is a means to an end, the end being no specific prescription of what the movements in the kata really are. It's a good idea to explore possibilities when teaching though, so we agree that it may be a useful strategy. I just think too many schools get so rigid with it that students loose sight of the big picture which is not to be limited by a "standard". thank you.
joeykarateka 1 year ago
@joeykarateka
Just a question, why do most standardized bunkai have movements that are inefficent, unnecessary, and violate the principles of good self-defense? The bunkai here, especially where the back hand is behind you to do a low block, makes no sense. First of all, dropping the hand in a gedan barai to block a kick is ineffective, and leave the uppertorso open for an easy counter. Secondly, why pose with the back hand, leaving the body even more vunerable? All of his vital...
ronin752 1 year ago
@joeykarateka
points are exposed. Third, shouldn't basic, teaching bunkai reinforce proper principles of self-defense. Otherwise, the beginning black belt has bad habits that have to be unlearned in order to protect himself against the average, untrained fighter. You've ingrained poor principles into your muscle memory.
Just a thought or two, what are your thoughts?
ronin752 1 year ago
@ronin752 I did not comment on this particular bunkai. You said this was the standard Chinto bunkai. I said there is no such thing as a "standard" bunkai. Traditionaly there are 3 levels, all different from simple to complex, and they vary from style to style. Of course they should be based on good self-defense!! All I said was you shouldn't have a narrow view of bunkai because different styles have different philosophies and methodology and it is best to have an open and fluid mind.
joeykarateka 1 year ago
@ronin752 I did not criticize nor defend this particular bunkai precisely because it is subjective. Many old Asian Grand Masters differed in their opinions which is why there are so many interpretations, and no one can say anything is "standard". My issue is with your use of the word "standard bunkai". I will not comment one way or the other about this one precisely for the reasons I explained. No one has all the answers to what is effective and what isn't and to pretend one does is arrogant.
joeykarateka 1 year ago
@joeykarateka
I am really not trying to criticize this particular bunkai either, and a major part of my response is that I have just been in a bit of a bad mood. My bad mood is due to completely ineffective applications and explanations that are given to westerners to make a buck. Now, from a self-defense standpoint, movements that leave vital points on the body exposed are counterproductive to self defense. I don't see the purpose of teaching that way at any level, whether it is
ronin752 1 year ago
@ronin752 your right. there is much "crap" being taught in commercial schools in every city. we just have to keep traditional self defense alive and teach others the difference between commercial karate and real karate.
joeykarateka 1 year ago
@joeykarateka
Whether it is shoden level, chuden level, or okuden level. I am a traditional karateka, and I have seen organizations of high ranking dans, as high as 8th dan, who have no better explanation of the kata than what is shown here. Hey, if we can not look critically at bunkai, and adapt our understanding to sound reasoning, then our art is dead, and we have exactly what Bruce Lee called a "classical mess."
ronin752 1 year ago
@ronin752 can I ask... if bunkai means 'application' why do we apply techniques against karate-style attacks? That would presume that the kata were devised to be used against other karateka and not untrained street thugs, drunks, robbers, hell even unruly satsuma samurai. If the latter, then why do we practice ANY application against karate based attacks? Whether omote, oyo, or okuden bunkai. I know which theory I subscribe to. Which is why I don't practice applications against karate attacks.
bertthepickle 1 year ago
@bertthepickle right on!!! I think the reason most traditional schools apply bunkai against karate-style attacks is because in the time when the katas were developed, part of the focus was in fact to defend yourself against others who also knew some form of okinawa te or other martial art. But I totally agree it's more important to practice against street attacks and in particular against different weapons (knives, clubs, etc.).
joeykarateka 1 year ago
@ronin752 you mean omote, oyo and okuden. Yes, I totally agree that we should "look critically at it and adapt our understanding to sound reasoning" which translates to: bunkai cannot be standardized. You are now contradicting what you had previously said, that there is a "standard" bunkai. I agree with you on this statement.
joeykarateka 1 year ago
@ronin752 also, we must look critically at bunkai, but it is also counterproductive to be absolutist about it. Different systems have different philosophies, some are trash and others are not. But just because it's different doesn't necessarily make it trash. I take from every application I see what I think is useful, and dismiss what I think is not. And that varies based on my background, my body type, my strengths and weaknesses. Nothing is standard.
joeykarateka 1 year ago
YOU'RE KIDDING ME RIGHT....
motobu100 3 years ago 5