@pandorachild Thank you for affirming that you are willing to follow in the footsteps of slave traders and genocidal maniacs who throughout history have justified their actions by dehumanizing the target of their violence. To hear you say it, a child doesn't attain "human" status until they grow beyond a toddler. Perhaps you'd like to grow a little mustache and have people shout "seig heil" in your honor.
These are the same people that think you should ne thankful for that pregnancy.
Be thankful to Christ for all things.
I know only a few people like this and they are also against ALL forms of birth control. They believe that women should have no say over their own bodies and reproduction.
@Burnthas "If a fetus is a person, why does people say, e.g. We have two kids and one on the way.? why don't they say we have 3 kids?"
The object is the same, i.e., they are saying they have three kids, but why do you prefer that they not mention that one is yet unborn? Does it bother you that parents consider their unborn children actual human members of their family?
Pro choice is the only choice, unless you dont care about the mothers rights.
This is about promoting and enforcing a religious ideology and nothing to do with the rights of an unconscious entity.To force a woman to bear a child of rape, is disgusting and you should be ashamed.
@pandorachild - So you propose murder to make the situation better? How does that work? Will murdering the child remove the pain and memory of the rape? Will it heal her physically, mentally and spiritually? Why is is that the vast majority of rape victims who have gotten pregnant from the rape and then had abortions come to deeply regret those abortions? Why is it that every time rape and abortion are brought up together, every anti-life person thinks they are Sigmund Freud?
@JMcH Its not your choice. Stop forcing your belief onto other people. If there is a god let him judge and live your own life, religion is disgusting.
@pandorachild - Wow. That was just all over the board, wasn't it? Seems you have no problem forcing your beliefs on to others. That's called hypocrisy.
@JMcH my beliefe is that the woman gets to decide and make her own choice ,compared to nazi's like you who want to make your choice for her law, based off of corrupt morality from religion.
@pandorachild - But that's just it. It's nothing more than your belief. The fact of the matter is that her "choice" murders a unique, individual human being. Talk about corrupt morality!
By the way, congratulations for fulfilling Godwin's Law.
@menishizawa doesnt matter, Its not your decision. I dont think a fetus counts as a human, but that is besides the point.You wish to force women to carry a child even from a rape.
@pandorachild How is the humanity of the fetus beside the point? It has EVERYTHING to do with this point. If it is human and alive it is afforded basic human rights, including the right to life. I am not saying that it is not a cruel situation for a woman to carry the child of a rapist. But you are proposing that the child pay with its life for the crime of it's father.
@pandorachild And the argument that a child is not a human... wow. What is it then? Because this argument has been used before to justify all kinds of things that we today see as atrocities. Slavery, almost every instance of genocide, etc. You are basing your assessment of it's species on it's stage of development. And you, like @jwissick, are basing your assessment of whether it is alive or not on a philosophical criteria that none of us may fit.
@nicodemous52 not your choice, ND YOU WANT TO ROB SOME ONE OF MAKING THE CHOICE. DOESN'T MATTER IF ITS WRONG OR RIGHT ITS HER CHOICE NOT YOURS.
No i do not think of fetuses as children and i do not think they have full human rights, but that is beside the point, its not my choice but i will not rob someone else to make it.
@pandorachild Of course you don't think of a fetus as a child. That would put an irreparable hole in your world view. You believe killing the fetus is the right of the mother, ergo, you must believe it is not human in order to prevent the logical inconsistency.
The problem is, science disagrees with you. It's cells reproduce, they respire, it responds to stimulus, it grows and develops. It is in all ways a living organism. How does the choice of the mother change the scientific fact?
@menishizawa no logical inconsistency, I dont care what YOU classify the matter in her uterus and my own opinion doesnt matter, get it threw you thick scull, even a single cell is alive yet we shed many during the day, you going to pray for them?
The only choice is PRO CHOICE. You idiots need to grab your bibles and fuck off
@pandorachild you keep leaning on a religious argument when I am not arguing religion with you at all. Science says you are wrong. The difference between the cells we shed and a fetus is a fetus is it's own living organism and the cells we shed are part of a living organism. Your choice to classify it as non-human is the same justification Hitler used to kill 6 million Jews, slave owners used to enslave millions of people, mistreatment of Native Americans, etc. Classification is not a choice.
@pandorachild Choice does not affect reality and the reality is, that fetus is human, and alive. To end it's life is to kill it. To say that my belief, your belief, or the belief of it's mother make a difference is as ludicrous as saying I can kill children or old people because, at their age, they are no longer human. The only difference between a fetus and you or I is its stage of development.
@pandorachild "The only choice is PRO CHOICE. You idiots need to grab your bibles and fuck off"
Maybe the lady in this video thinks there may have been another way out for her. She has a right to her opinion, it doesn't mean it should be the same for everone else.
@pandorachild Well, a fetus is both objectively human and objectively alive, therefore, logic demands it is a human life. Now, if you are going to argue that not all human lives are people, then I have to know...by what standard does a human life become a person? Or in other words, what exactly is it that gives value to human life?
@nicodemous52 being born gives you the right to life. Look I dont disagree with everything you are saying, its just not up to you, pro choice, means when it involves you , you can make your own choice, not be forced to chose on how other people feel about it. Pro choice is the only choice, end of the story.
@pandorachild Not the end of the story. If you agree it is a human life, and logic demands that you do so, then it is a person, in or out of the womb. If it is a human life, then it is murder to kill it. You can try to rationalize or excuse it all you like, but in the end that is all you can do rationalize excuses to allow murder for selfish reasons. Did you know only 1% or abortions are due to rape and only 5% to save the life of the mother? That means 94% are nothing more than birth control...
@nicodemous52 I dont agree its a human life, Its a fetus. well I am done talking to you, you are rationalizing and I am bored of it. Its not murder, it is birth control. 7 billion ppl in this world.......
@pandorachild "I don't agree its a human life, it's a fetus".
I suggest you look up the definition of the word "fetus". I'm not sure you and I are talking about the same thing. You seem to believe it is some type of non-species which could be anything while I am using it as it is properly defined to describe the stage of development for an organism, in this case a human. Other stages of development would be "infant", "toddler", "adolescent", "adult", etc.
@pandorachild "7 billion ppl in this world" and there you have the rationalization why this group of people gets to die. 1) they can't argue, 2) they can't defend themselves, 3) they don't look like me so they are not human. all leading to the real reason which is, population control. How long until population control extends to other developmental stages like "senior citizens"? Maybe Muslims are not human, or Christians are not human? Cultures must value life if they are to survive.
@menishizawa not people, mass of cells, unconscious. Im tired of you nut jobs, fetus isnt a human or a toddler or even a child and with over population pro choice is the mature reality of this world. I dont fucking care if you think god himself slipped life into the cells they are unconscious and no woman should ever be FORCED to carry the child of RAPE. I am done responding to idiots on this thread
children are not born into salvation...Romans 1. I'm not saying this as a 'trolling' comment but there are alot of Christians who believe that when a child dies he or she automatically goes to heaven. But that's not entirely what happens in the book of Joshua...and it wouldn't make any sense if it did considering God ordered the slaughter of men, women and children for the sake of the promise land.
@Danthious However, the typical argument for this belief and the support for an "age of accountability" is found in 2 Sam 12:21-23. Secondly, if you believe in election, then one could argue either that the child was not elect OR that it was elect and is saved by election and it's understanding is of no consequence. I think there's enough evidence either way that a dogmatic stand is of little value.
So are you saying that because it can not "realize" it's rights, that it has none? From that I can extrapolate that you believe a toddler does not have the right to free speech because it can not speak in a language you understand. A person in a coma has no rights because they are unconscious. A quadriplegic has no right to freely assemble and protest because they can't move. It has nothing to do with religion, your logic is faulty.
@jwissick Oh brother you are still posting your nonsense? Pathetic soul you are. Toddlers realize their rights even if they cannot articulate them. you suport murdering children but then complain about the bible saying it promotes muerdering children. You hypocrite.
I am not the hypocrite.... The bible is hypocritical. Christians are hypocritical.
Toddlers can't realize their rights... .why don't we see them clamoring for weapons to defend themselves from kidnappers? Why don't we see them demanding the right to vote? Because they don't and can't realize those rights. DERP
@jwissick No you are still the hypocrite, atheists are hypocrites. So you believe we should be able to kill toddlers if they are a burden on us humans? Toddlers are not human beings therefore if we want to kill them its ok?
Yet you want to get pissed off and say "The bible allows to killing of INNOCENT women and CHILDREN!!" You are still the hypocrite.
@jwissick Even an atheist cringes when a dog gets run over by a car. Killing a baby isn't about religion, it's about right and wrong, respecting life.
And it's about your religion wanting to control a woman's right to her own body. Period. That's why there are very very few atheists who are anti-choice. There are so few, I don't know of ANY in my circles.
@jwissick The fetus is inside her, and relies on her, but it is not part of her. By asserting that she owns the right to an abortion as a fundamental right to her own body, you are elevating the rights of the mother over the rights of the fetus. This is prejudice based upon stage of development. Respect of life is a pillar of civilization, religious or not. Without it, no civilized society can survive.
@jwissick If I understand your argument correctly, a right is not afforded to someone until they have the ability to make use of it. A fetus is alive, therefore it is "realizing" it's right to life. The idea that it must consciously understand what it means to be alive is preposterous. The very fact that people struggle with the meaning and purpose of life, by your definition, means that none of us have the right to life.
Sounds to me like it's 100% about your scatterbrained approach to philosophy. In one conversation you have jumped aimlessly through the following subjects: the origin of human life, non-personhood, spirituality, morality, rape, evolution, old testament law, child psychology, human rights, and now.... sentience (which is usually where you've finally come full circle only to go roundy round again). I'm starting to think you're a bit schizophrenic!
@jwissick - So since a toddler cannot articulate his right to life, then it's okay to murder him. Brilliant argument, James. Yes, let's start advocating retroactive, post-birth abortions because toddlers cannot articulate their rights. You are honestly the most disgusting human being I have ever encountered, James.
@jwissick Apparently you disagree with the founders of this country that the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are inalienable. This seems like a question of legality rather than religious or moral authority.
@SamWiseGingy If you crash your car into a pregnant woman and the fetus dies, you are charged with homicide. What if the lady was on her way to get an abortion, was it still homicide? Or what if the person who crashed into her was the abortion doctor who was speeding and running late to meet the woman to give her an abortion? You don’t get it, It is NOT about the woman, it is about the Baby. The master plan is to let the baby live. So to you, one day it is homicide, the next day it is justified.
@jwissick - James, I worked with severely developmentally disabled adults for 7 years. They had no capacity to realize their rights. According to your ludicrous, ham-fisted, backwards argument, they had no rights. Nice, James. Real nice.
@jwissick - You are one sick puppy, James. Thankfully, the law does not agree with you. Developmentally disabled adults have the same rights as you and I and, yes, those with less severe disability can own firearms if they can pass the requirements (e.g. acquiring a permit).
Honestly, James, you are incredibly ignorant and it seems willfully so, yet every time I put you in your place, you just ignore it and keep coming back for more.
@jwissick Oh? So, we don't control what drugs she can and cannot take and when she can or cannot take them? And, isn't abortion really not so much to "her" body but to that of the "fetus", which as we have discussed before, is both objectively human and alive thus a human life. So, tell me, which human lives are people? Even in the Roe V. Wade decision it was stated that this "right" would not stand if the baby was in fact a person. Well, what human lives are not people then. Explain..
@nicodemous52 "Even in the Roe V. Wade decision it was stated that this "right" would not stand if the baby was in fact a person."
That's exactly right. That is why the Supreme Court decided to call a fetus a "non-person" (completely overstepping their bounds as SC judges who have NO provision to determine this), and tucked it under search and seizure, thereby creating law (a thing the SC is NOT to do). There was no other way to make it legal apart from lying about was a fetus is.
@jwissick they absolutely DO have the right to determine that as it is a LEGAL definition.
No, jwssick, it's a legal definition because they created it! They did so without a Constitutional provision, thereby overstepping their bounds. They made law, which is not the role of the Supreme Court, as they are not legislators.
@jwissick "No reasonable person would ever call a fetus sentient."
Of course they would. Unborn children are responsive to their senses. What you're really saying is that anyone who disagrees with you is unreasonable. No so.
@jwissick And now we are back to my cousins, yet again…Let me simplify this all for you. The point of my questions from last time, and this, are to lead you to a particular place. Does human life have intrinsic value? (CON>>>)
@jwissick (<<<CON) If so, then there is no way to justify the murder of any human being. If not, then you have to give me the criteria by which “we” have value. In doing so, you will by necessity leave some people out, and then you will have to live with and defend the consequences of your criteria. Plus, that didn't address the other limits we place upon what a woman can "do with her own body" nor the fact that we are not talking about "her" body...
@jwissick So what is a human without a human body since you believe we have no soul? Arnt we all just human bodies? Seems like you are promoting the idea of a soul! I thought you were a rational atheist!
@jwissick But you just said human bodies are not important and that they are not people. So what makes people people? And where does it come from? There is no soul inside a body. Bodies are bodies right?
@jwissick So then what makes anyone worthy to live is if they have a brain that functions the way you believe it should? So if someone gets hit on the head or gets a brain disease he is no longer a person and its morally okay to kill them because they are simply a human body?
@jwissick Let me write this so you will understand... ooo oooo oooho ooo oooo...that was ape language for, -Fetus is latin for baby-...but you being a monkey man didn't really need the translation... hugs bro...Jesus is waiting for you.
@jwissick Oh, see my hug was a good thing to pass on because you seem like you are having a bad night. Sometimes a bit of food and a nap can help. Have a few bananas and you will feel better. I didn't know apes get insulted though. Hugs is a friendly gesture. The only real insults usually come from you spewing crazy talk about your/my creator, very intolerant sometimes. But I do wish you hugs and joy bro. Merry christmas too. I hope you have a peaceful weekend too. Sorry for making you feel bad.
@jwissick Well then, what makes a human life a person? Why are you unable to answer such a basic question without back peddling? IF sentience is your standard then you have to defend my right to kill my cousins. (CON>>>)
@jwissick No, you really haven't "explained that" becauese every time you do I point out the flaw in your reasoning, and then you change your explanition and by the time the next video you are back to your old arguments as if you were never shown the flaws in its logic.
@jwissick (<<<CON)Let us suppose for a sec that they are in fact sentient, if my cousins are then my cat must be. And, if my cat is then surely other animals are as well. And if they are then meat is murder. So, unless you are a vegetarian then you must be a hypocrite, period. That, or “our” value comes from being simply human…
@jwissick No one is telling a woman what to do with her body, well except the State. If a woman has a male baby in her stomach that male has a penis right? So it is not the womans body, it is the males body. Woman are currently told they cannot take illegal drugs with their own body, they cannot commit suicide with their own body, so it is not a stretch to say they cannot kill their baby. You have no good argument for killing babies, you should stick with fighting against God instead. God bless
@SamWiseGingy if you were to go out tonight and break any law what would happen to you by our justice system if you were caught? The authorities would do there jobs and arrest you. Not "us guys" but the authorities who have been hired and taken an oath to uphold the law. Your question is loaded worded completely incorrect. That's awfully stinky bait your trolling with.
@SamWiseGingy I am not proposing we enact any further laws, only consistently enforce laws already on the books. If you take a life, you are prosecuted either 1st-3rd degree murder, manslaughter, etc. Why is it that a drunk driver is charged with double homicide when he hits and kills a pregnant mother? Obviously, the law considers the fetus a human life in that case.
@SamWiseGingy In addition, women in many states are charged with wreckless endangerment, neglect, or child abuse for taking illegal drugs and taking part in other activities where they knowingly can harm the fetus. What is the difference between sucking down a fifth of Jack on a regular basis while pregnant and asking another person to tear the baby apart, suck it's brains out just prior to birth, or inject a solution to chemically burn it to death?
Tonight on Boston talk radio they were talking about just this subject. Multiple women called to state that people who are against abortion are the same as those who commit rape and assaults. They stated that being against abortion is equivalent to rape and assault.
Wow! But we all know the truth that abortion is murder.
@jwissick God doesn't change His mind. He has a plan for every soul of every man, woman and child (be they born or miscarried or aborted) and what He plans can no man question. I have read some of your other posts and you seem to be looking for confrontation. I'm not going to oblige. My conversation with you is closed unless you have something worthwhile to contribute. Thank you.
I think the one who did murder in this situation was the rapist. The Bible equates rape with murder, and if as a result the child was done away with, then the blame is on him. He murdered this woman in his heart, and she suffered the consequences of his decision. I feel so sorry for her. She's equating killing with murder and it's not always the same thing in all circumstances.
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: god.
@jwissick I think we've had this discussion before. You're twisting the passages again. Forcible rape was punishable by death. There was even an instance where a seduction outside of marriage was considered a rape, and the rapist was cosequently killed. Innocent victims are never punished for being taken by force. It wouldn't even make sense for the Hebrews to embrace any "unclean" practice such as you're saying.
In Hebrew culture (unlike ours), a woman's virginity was her prized possession, and a dowry was paid to her parents for training and raiser her right, as well as keeping her pure. If a woman was raped, she was effectively "used goods," and may never marry. Now she has a husband that has no choice but to treat her right, and he can never ditch her. Don't get mad because Israel placed more of a value on women than we do in the US.
@jwissick you have to understand that this instruction was for the nation of Israel and was to set them apart from the vile, horrible practices that were taking place by the occupying peoples everywhere. I do not second guess my Lord and His instructions and intentions, and we certainly cannot fully understand all of Gods directions in the Old Testament to His choosen people but.....the clay does not question the potter. Your Pride is your enemy.
@greyspot00 In Deut 22 there is a distinction between fornication and rape. If a woman was found innocent of fornication she was free to go (i.e. she had not willingly fornicated by was forced to), but the man who took her by force was to be stoned to death. Adultery and forcible rape were serious crimes, but innocent victims were not forced to marry their rapist.
@jwissick It's in the very passage you pointed out. v. 25 of ch. 22 Only the assailant is punished because he did something to the woman that wasn't consensual.
v. 26 "Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her."
@jwissick "Different situation... In 22:25 she is engaged.... In 22-28-29 she is NOT married and not engaged."
That's not the only difference. In v. 23 she is betrothed and fornicating with another man and not looking to be rescued, in 25 she is bethrothed and raped by a stranger and screaming for help. In 28 she is single and sleeping with a man and they are found out. She is not crying out for help (just like the woman in v. 23), but because she's not betrothed, he's to marry her.
@celestialsalamander "but that is only if she calls out. if she does not call out, even if only out of frear for her life then she gets punished to."
No. It's the exactly opposite. Read the passage entirely and in context. If you pull out one sentence here or there the meaning is lost. The gist is that this isn't a woman who is going along with the sex act willingly, in contrast with the woman who is. The part about the country vs. the city, or the screaming merely illustrates this point.
@celestialsalamander The woman who is quiet in the city (where it would be easy to be heard if you desired to protest) is quiet, because she doesn't want to be found committing adultery. The woman in the country who desires to protest (but can't be heard even if she did because no one is around to hear her anyway) is shown compassion, because she was taken advantage of. The city/country, screaming/not screaming is incidental. The point is that one is a willful sin, and the other is a crime.
@jwissick "How can you defend that? Doesn't that make you sick?"
You're trying to warp the discussion into an attack on people who were only speaking up in defense of the poor lady in this video. Jesus didn't teach that women were of less value than men, and we weren't defening the yoke of the law. YOU brought up the ancient laws, got them completely wrong, and simply cannot admit it. You just want to be combative with people here who are only being gracious to you.
@jwissick come on now j, stick to science and leave the philisophical and moral discussions to those who believe life is more than relativity and a chemicle reaction. 1 John 1:16 "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the BOASTFUL PRIDE of life is not from the Father, but is from the world." You should be proud j because your an exact representation of your mother earth.
@jwissick I wonder to myself why does this guy goto every upload of wretched? Then I realized the reason he does is God is actually dealing with him through this channel. You hmmmmm and hah much but I think you protest too much. I think you are under great conviction.
@jwissick Actually if your referring to Exodus 22:16-17 What part of the word entice do you not understand? If a man enticed-To attract by arousing hope or desire; lure
That is to say he who seduced a virgin with promises only to sleep with her. That isn't rape and that is a misrepresentation of scripture on your part. If you use other instances it is used and reiterated in the same context. If a man forced a woman he was to be put to death. He would be dead not married.
@BrotherMichael1000 "That is to say he who seduced a virgin with promises only to sleep with her. That isn't rape and that is a misrepresentation of scripture on your part."
This has been explained to him over and over. He cannot get his brain around the translation or the context. Even if he had the Hebrew text in front him it wouldn't help.
@jwissick Those who force a woman against their will where stoned to death. They wouldn't be married they would be dead. By the way the word force is the king james language used for rape. So again you are wrong.
@jwissick that's a very broad comment that very likely could be applied to a certain religious mind set. But to blame the cause of the entire "dark ages" period of human history to the orthodox Christian faith is simply not possible or true. Unfortunaley, we are allowed very few characters per post to allow us to dive into this very important subject. Come on j your dissapointing me you can do better. :-)
And today's view of women, that a man can take a girls purity, that they aren't special, that they aren't jewels in the eyes of God and are encouraged to throw themselves at whatever young pig gives them any attention is better?
Something is very wrong with you, and our sitcom-based society.
@greyspot00 A man can't take anything unless you think rape takes "purity" (whatever that is). It takes TWO to tango... ergo, it's voluntary.
There is nothing wrong with sex between consenting adults. The people that disagree are fundies that think sex is dirty or nasty and then use it to shame people.
If you don't like the idea that men are attracted to women and want to have sex with them, then take it up with the designer, not the design.
@jwissick I hope I'm misunderstanding you when you say "A man can't take anything unless you think rape takes "purity" (whatever that is). It takes TWO to tango... ergo it's voluntary." Sounds to me you think that there is no such thing as rape. Only an idiot or a rapist would say such a thing. What about Children who are raped? Is THAT voluntary?! Rape takes so much more than purity. Rape causes its victims to have the opinion that sex is dirty or nasty, and takes a LONG time to reverse.
@ChristiansofAsia I think abortion upon demand is murder. i.e., at any time, and for any reason. There are unusual circumstances where it would be rash to sacrifice the tree for the fruit (rape, incest, life of the mother), just as in others it would be rash to do the opposite (convenience). Shame that there was no network of support for her to make another choice, if she was strong enough to carry the child to term that is. It's so tragic, and so very sad.
*smh* religious indoctrination
Exli3r 3 weeks ago
@pandorachild Thank you for affirming that you are willing to follow in the footsteps of slave traders and genocidal maniacs who throughout history have justified their actions by dehumanizing the target of their violence. To hear you say it, a child doesn't attain "human" status until they grow beyond a toddler. Perhaps you'd like to grow a little mustache and have people shout "seig heil" in your honor.
menishizawa 1 month ago 3
There's something very appealing about this woman. What a humble demonstration of Isaiah 43...such profound pain being used for His glory.
Women like her = extremely rare.
absoluteblock 1 month ago 4
This was hard to watch.
exiled30 2 months ago
@exiled30 I know what your saying. How can a victim of rape justify its beyond me?
Exli3r 3 weeks ago
@Exli3r Not sure if you know what I'm saying.
exiled30 3 weeks ago
@exiled30 mmmh I think so too.
Exli3r 3 weeks ago
These are the same people that think you should ne thankful for that pregnancy.
Be thankful to Christ for all things.
I know only a few people like this and they are also against ALL forms of birth control. They believe that women should have no say over their own bodies and reproduction.
Conchead 2 months ago
If a fetus is a person, why does people say, e.g. We have two kids and one on the way.?
why don't they say we have 3 kids?
Burnthas 2 months ago
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@Burnthas "If a fetus is a person, why does people say, e.g. We have two kids and one on the way.? why don't they say we have 3 kids?"
The object is the same, i.e., they are saying they have three kids, but why do you prefer that they not mention that one is yet unborn? Does it bother you that parents consider their unborn children actual human members of their family?
SpeakaDaEnglish 2 months ago
@Burnthas : I didn't....
bradmorris67 2 months ago
Pro choice is the only choice, unless you dont care about the mothers rights.
This is about promoting and enforcing a religious ideology and nothing to do with the rights of an unconscious entity.To force a woman to bear a child of rape, is disgusting and you should be ashamed.
pandorachild 2 months ago
@pandorachild - So you propose murder to make the situation better? How does that work? Will murdering the child remove the pain and memory of the rape? Will it heal her physically, mentally and spiritually? Why is is that the vast majority of rape victims who have gotten pregnant from the rape and then had abortions come to deeply regret those abortions? Why is it that every time rape and abortion are brought up together, every anti-life person thinks they are Sigmund Freud?
JMcH 2 months ago
@JMcH Its not your choice. Stop forcing your belief onto other people. If there is a god let him judge and live your own life, religion is disgusting.
pandorachild 2 months ago
@pandorachild - Wow. That was just all over the board, wasn't it? Seems you have no problem forcing your beliefs on to others. That's called hypocrisy.
JMcH 2 months ago
@JMcH my beliefe is that the woman gets to decide and make her own choice ,compared to nazi's like you who want to make your choice for her law, based off of corrupt morality from religion.
pandorachild 2 months ago
@pandorachild - But that's just it. It's nothing more than your belief. The fact of the matter is that her "choice" murders a unique, individual human being. Talk about corrupt morality!
By the way, congratulations for fulfilling Godwin's Law.
JMcH 2 months ago
@pandorachild Is it illegal to take the life of another human being? Is a fetus either not alive, not a human being, or both?
menishizawa 2 months ago
@menishizawa doesnt matter, Its not your decision. I dont think a fetus counts as a human, but that is besides the point.You wish to force women to carry a child even from a rape.
pandorachild 2 months ago
@pandorachild How is the humanity of the fetus beside the point? It has EVERYTHING to do with this point. If it is human and alive it is afforded basic human rights, including the right to life. I am not saying that it is not a cruel situation for a woman to carry the child of a rapist. But you are proposing that the child pay with its life for the crime of it's father.
menishizawa 2 months ago
@pandorachild And the argument that a child is not a human... wow. What is it then? Because this argument has been used before to justify all kinds of things that we today see as atrocities. Slavery, almost every instance of genocide, etc. You are basing your assessment of it's species on it's stage of development. And you, like @jwissick, are basing your assessment of whether it is alive or not on a philosophical criteria that none of us may fit.
menishizawa 2 months ago
@pandorachild - If it's not human, then what is it? Dog? Mouse? Worm? Amoeba?
"but that is besides the point"
No, it's actually not. If it "counts as a human," then to make a conscious decision to kill it is murder.
"You wish to force women to carry a child even from a rape."
Please answer how an abortion will cure the rape.
JMcH 2 months ago
@pandorachild Do I really need religion to conclude that to murder a person is wrong?
nicodemous52 2 months ago
@nicodemous52 not your choice, ND YOU WANT TO ROB SOME ONE OF MAKING THE CHOICE. DOESN'T MATTER IF ITS WRONG OR RIGHT ITS HER CHOICE NOT YOURS.
No i do not think of fetuses as children and i do not think they have full human rights, but that is beside the point, its not my choice but i will not rob someone else to make it.
pandorachild 2 months ago
@pandorachild Of course you don't think of a fetus as a child. That would put an irreparable hole in your world view. You believe killing the fetus is the right of the mother, ergo, you must believe it is not human in order to prevent the logical inconsistency.
The problem is, science disagrees with you. It's cells reproduce, they respire, it responds to stimulus, it grows and develops. It is in all ways a living organism. How does the choice of the mother change the scientific fact?
menishizawa 2 months ago
@menishizawa no logical inconsistency, I dont care what YOU classify the matter in her uterus and my own opinion doesnt matter, get it threw you thick scull, even a single cell is alive yet we shed many during the day, you going to pray for them?
The only choice is PRO CHOICE. You idiots need to grab your bibles and fuck off
pandorachild 2 months ago
@pandorachild you keep leaning on a religious argument when I am not arguing religion with you at all. Science says you are wrong. The difference between the cells we shed and a fetus is a fetus is it's own living organism and the cells we shed are part of a living organism. Your choice to classify it as non-human is the same justification Hitler used to kill 6 million Jews, slave owners used to enslave millions of people, mistreatment of Native Americans, etc. Classification is not a choice.
menishizawa 2 months ago
@pandorachild Choice does not affect reality and the reality is, that fetus is human, and alive. To end it's life is to kill it. To say that my belief, your belief, or the belief of it's mother make a difference is as ludicrous as saying I can kill children or old people because, at their age, they are no longer human. The only difference between a fetus and you or I is its stage of development.
menishizawa 2 months ago
@pandorachild "The only choice is PRO CHOICE. You idiots need to grab your bibles and fuck off"
Maybe the lady in this video thinks there may have been another way out for her. She has a right to her opinion, it doesn't mean it should be the same for everone else.
SpeakaDaEnglish 2 months ago
@pandorachild Well, a fetus is both objectively human and objectively alive, therefore, logic demands it is a human life. Now, if you are going to argue that not all human lives are people, then I have to know...by what standard does a human life become a person? Or in other words, what exactly is it that gives value to human life?
nicodemous52 2 months ago
@nicodemous52 being born gives you the right to life. Look I dont disagree with everything you are saying, its just not up to you, pro choice, means when it involves you , you can make your own choice, not be forced to chose on how other people feel about it. Pro choice is the only choice, end of the story.
pandorachild 2 months ago
@pandorachild Not the end of the story. If you agree it is a human life, and logic demands that you do so, then it is a person, in or out of the womb. If it is a human life, then it is murder to kill it. You can try to rationalize or excuse it all you like, but in the end that is all you can do rationalize excuses to allow murder for selfish reasons. Did you know only 1% or abortions are due to rape and only 5% to save the life of the mother? That means 94% are nothing more than birth control...
nicodemous52 2 months ago
@nicodemous52 I dont agree its a human life, Its a fetus. well I am done talking to you, you are rationalizing and I am bored of it. Its not murder, it is birth control. 7 billion ppl in this world.......
pandorachild 2 months ago
@pandorachild Wow, well I guess the show is named after you then. At least you are honest...
nicodemous52 2 months ago
@pandorachild and to add to that...You have a problem with rational thought? You will not go to far in life if that is true...
nicodemous52 2 months ago
@pandorachild "I don't agree its a human life, it's a fetus".
I suggest you look up the definition of the word "fetus". I'm not sure you and I are talking about the same thing. You seem to believe it is some type of non-species which could be anything while I am using it as it is properly defined to describe the stage of development for an organism, in this case a human. Other stages of development would be "infant", "toddler", "adolescent", "adult", etc.
menishizawa 2 months ago
@pandorachild "7 billion ppl in this world" and there you have the rationalization why this group of people gets to die. 1) they can't argue, 2) they can't defend themselves, 3) they don't look like me so they are not human. all leading to the real reason which is, population control. How long until population control extends to other developmental stages like "senior citizens"? Maybe Muslims are not human, or Christians are not human? Cultures must value life if they are to survive.
menishizawa 2 months ago
@menishizawa not people, mass of cells, unconscious. Im tired of you nut jobs, fetus isnt a human or a toddler or even a child and with over population pro choice is the mature reality of this world. I dont fucking care if you think god himself slipped life into the cells they are unconscious and no woman should ever be FORCED to carry the child of RAPE. I am done responding to idiots on this thread
pandorachild 2 months ago
@pandorachild You say you dislike rational thought, and you call us idiots?
nicodemous52 2 months ago
children are not born into salvation...Romans 1. I'm not saying this as a 'trolling' comment but there are alot of Christians who believe that when a child dies he or she automatically goes to heaven. But that's not entirely what happens in the book of Joshua...and it wouldn't make any sense if it did considering God ordered the slaughter of men, women and children for the sake of the promise land.
Danthious 2 months ago
@Danthious However, the typical argument for this belief and the support for an "age of accountability" is found in 2 Sam 12:21-23. Secondly, if you believe in election, then one could argue either that the child was not elect OR that it was elect and is saved by election and it's understanding is of no consequence. I think there's enough evidence either way that a dogmatic stand is of little value.
menishizawa 2 months ago
Amen!!
Jovan14606 2 months ago
nutcase
pandorachild 2 months ago
Suggestion: I would love it if you would link the full original video on all of your videos in the "more Information" tab. This is good stuff.
MustardSeedish 2 months ago
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YouAreNotAMonkey 2 months ago
@jwissick RE: a baby/fetus has no rights.
So are you saying that because it can not "realize" it's rights, that it has none? From that I can extrapolate that you believe a toddler does not have the right to free speech because it can not speak in a language you understand. A person in a coma has no rights because they are unconscious. A quadriplegic has no right to freely assemble and protest because they can't move. It has nothing to do with religion, your logic is faulty.
menishizawa 2 months ago
@menishizawa Find me a toddler that can actually articulate a position on a subject and it get's those rights. Toddlers don't have language at all.
A person in a coma is a special case IF recovery is presumed because he has already realized those rights.
A quadriplegic has those rights as they can realize them even though exercising them may be problematic without assistance.
This is 100% about religion.
jwissick 2 months ago
@jwissick Oh brother you are still posting your nonsense? Pathetic soul you are. Toddlers realize their rights even if they cannot articulate them. you suport murdering children but then complain about the bible saying it promotes muerdering children. You hypocrite.
MaharlikaAWA 2 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA
I am not the hypocrite.... The bible is hypocritical. Christians are hypocritical.
Toddlers can't realize their rights... .why don't we see them clamoring for weapons to defend themselves from kidnappers? Why don't we see them demanding the right to vote? Because they don't and can't realize those rights. DERP
jwissick 2 months ago
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@jwissick "Toddlers can't realize their rights... .why don't we see them clamoring for weapons to defend themselves from kidnappers?"
Hmm... because their diapers don't come with holsters? lol
SpeakaDaEnglish 2 months ago
@jwissick No you are still the hypocrite, atheists are hypocrites. So you believe we should be able to kill toddlers if they are a burden on us humans? Toddlers are not human beings therefore if we want to kill them its ok?
Yet you want to get pissed off and say "The bible allows to killing of INNOCENT women and CHILDREN!!" You are still the hypocrite.
MaharlikaAWA 2 months ago 2
@jwissick Even an atheist cringes when a dog gets run over by a car. Killing a baby isn't about religion, it's about right and wrong, respecting life.
houseguy4 2 months ago
@houseguy4 Category fallacy.
And it's about your religion wanting to control a woman's right to her own body. Period. That's why there are very very few atheists who are anti-choice. There are so few, I don't know of ANY in my circles.
jwissick 2 months ago
@jwissick The fetus is inside her, and relies on her, but it is not part of her. By asserting that she owns the right to an abortion as a fundamental right to her own body, you are elevating the rights of the mother over the rights of the fetus. This is prejudice based upon stage of development. Respect of life is a pillar of civilization, religious or not. Without it, no civilized society can survive.
menishizawa 2 months ago
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@menishizawa As I have said before. A fetus has no rights.
jwissick 2 months ago
@jwissick If I understand your argument correctly, a right is not afforded to someone until they have the ability to make use of it. A fetus is alive, therefore it is "realizing" it's right to life. The idea that it must consciously understand what it means to be alive is preposterous. The very fact that people struggle with the meaning and purpose of life, by your definition, means that none of us have the right to life.
menishizawa 2 months ago
@jwissick "This is 100% about religion."
Sounds to me like it's 100% about your scatterbrained approach to philosophy. In one conversation you have jumped aimlessly through the following subjects: the origin of human life, non-personhood, spirituality, morality, rape, evolution, old testament law, child psychology, human rights, and now.... sentience (which is usually where you've finally come full circle only to go roundy round again). I'm starting to think you're a bit schizophrenic!
SpeakaDaEnglish 2 months ago
@jwissick - So since a toddler cannot articulate his right to life, then it's okay to murder him. Brilliant argument, James. Yes, let's start advocating retroactive, post-birth abortions because toddlers cannot articulate their rights. You are honestly the most disgusting human being I have ever encountered, James.
JMcH 2 months ago
@jwissick Apparently you disagree with the founders of this country that the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are inalienable. This seems like a question of legality rather than religious or moral authority.
menishizawa 2 months ago
So what do you guys plan to do to women who get an abortion once you have made abortion illegal?
SamWiseGingy 2 months ago
@SamWiseGingy If you crash your car into a pregnant woman and the fetus dies, you are charged with homicide. What if the lady was on her way to get an abortion, was it still homicide? Or what if the person who crashed into her was the abortion doctor who was speeding and running late to meet the woman to give her an abortion? You don’t get it, It is NOT about the woman, it is about the Baby. The master plan is to let the baby live. So to you, one day it is homicide, the next day it is justified.
YouAreNotAMonkey 2 months ago
@YouAreNotAMonkey
Sorry, you don't get to dictate what a woman can or can't do with her own body.
Ever. Period.
jwissick 2 months ago
@jwissick your right j, but this is about the babys body not the womans.
RVGuy1959 2 months ago
@RVGuy1959 Wrong.
It has no rights to anything as it can't realize those rights.
jwissick 2 months ago
@jwissick - James, I worked with severely developmentally disabled adults for 7 years. They had no capacity to realize their rights. According to your ludicrous, ham-fisted, backwards argument, they had no rights. Nice, James. Real nice.
JMcH 2 months ago
@JMcH - Actually, more than 7.
JMcH 2 months ago
@JMcH That's right. We don't allow them to own firearms either. And for GOOD reason.
You worked with the disabled? No way. You are too bitter to be helpful to anyone.
jwissick 2 months ago
@jwissick - You are one sick puppy, James. Thankfully, the law does not agree with you. Developmentally disabled adults have the same rights as you and I and, yes, those with less severe disability can own firearms if they can pass the requirements (e.g. acquiring a permit).
Honestly, James, you are incredibly ignorant and it seems willfully so, yet every time I put you in your place, you just ignore it and keep coming back for more.
JMcH 2 months ago
@jwissick - And me bitter? Look in the mirror, pot. You don't help anyone except yourself. Yes, I did help the disabled, whereas you would kill them.
JMcH 2 months ago
@RVGuy1959 Actually, it is about the woman's body as it is her body being affected by the pregnancy.
RandomBS88 2 months ago
@jwissick Oh? So, we don't control what drugs she can and cannot take and when she can or cannot take them? And, isn't abortion really not so much to "her" body but to that of the "fetus", which as we have discussed before, is both objectively human and alive thus a human life. So, tell me, which human lives are people? Even in the Roe V. Wade decision it was stated that this "right" would not stand if the baby was in fact a person. Well, what human lives are not people then. Explain..
nicodemous52 2 months ago
@nicodemous52 "Even in the Roe V. Wade decision it was stated that this "right" would not stand if the baby was in fact a person."
That's exactly right. That is why the Supreme Court decided to call a fetus a "non-person" (completely overstepping their bounds as SC judges who have NO provision to determine this), and tucked it under search and seizure, thereby creating law (a thing the SC is NOT to do). There was no other way to make it legal apart from lying about was a fetus is.
SpeakaDaEnglish 2 months ago
@SpeakaDaEnglish No, they absolutely DO have the right to determine that as it is a LEGAL definition.
You just don't like it so you say they don't have that right.
jwissick 2 months ago
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@jwissick they absolutely DO have the right to determine that as it is a LEGAL definition.
No, jwssick, it's a legal definition because they created it! They did so without a Constitutional provision, thereby overstepping their bounds. They made law, which is not the role of the Supreme Court, as they are not legislators.
SpeakaDaEnglish 2 months ago
@nicodemous52 A person is aware and sentient.
No reasonable person would ever call a fetus sentient.
jwissick 2 months ago
@jwissick "No reasonable person would ever call a fetus sentient."
Of course they would. Unborn children are responsive to their senses. What you're really saying is that anyone who disagrees with you is unreasonable. No so.
SpeakaDaEnglish 2 months ago
@SpeakaDaEnglish
Fine. They are not self-aware and therefore are not people.
jwissick 2 months ago
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nicodemous52 2 months ago
@jwissick And now we are back to my cousins, yet again…Let me simplify this all for you. The point of my questions from last time, and this, are to lead you to a particular place. Does human life have intrinsic value? (CON>>>)
nicodemous52 2 months ago
@jwissick (<<<CON) If so, then there is no way to justify the murder of any human being. If not, then you have to give me the criteria by which “we” have value. In doing so, you will by necessity leave some people out, and then you will have to live with and defend the consequences of your criteria. Plus, that didn't address the other limits we place upon what a woman can "do with her own body" nor the fact that we are not talking about "her" body...
nicodemous52 2 months ago
@nicodemous52
It's not about the woman's body? Really? Were you hatched from a bird's egg?
Human bodies have no intrinsic value. PEOPLE have value. Fetuses are NOT people. Period.
jwissick 2 months ago
@jwissick So what is a human without a human body since you believe we have no soul? Arnt we all just human bodies? Seems like you are promoting the idea of a soul! I thought you were a rational atheist!
MaharlikaAWA 2 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA We are people. There is no soul. There is no mind. There is only brain. That's what makes you you.
jwissick 2 months ago
@jwissick But you just said human bodies are not important and that they are not people. So what makes people people? And where does it come from? There is no soul inside a body. Bodies are bodies right?
MaharlikaAWA 2 months ago
@MaharlikaAWA
Personality (personhood) comes from a functional brain. Not one in utero or one that is severely brain damaged or dead.
jwissick 2 months ago
@jwissick So then what makes anyone worthy to live is if they have a brain that functions the way you believe it should? So if someone gets hit on the head or gets a brain disease he is no longer a person and its morally okay to kill them because they are simply a human body?
MaharlikaAWA 2 months ago
@jwissick - So is a person with half a brain only half a person, James, and thus only entitled to half their rights?
JMcH 2 months ago
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@JMcH You really are a mental midget, aren't you?
jwissick 2 months ago
@jwissick Let me write this so you will understand... ooo oooo oooho ooo oooo...that was ape language for, -Fetus is latin for baby-...but you being a monkey man didn't really need the translation... hugs bro...Jesus is waiting for you.
YouAreNotAMonkey 2 months ago
@YouAreNotAMonkey Doesn't matter what it used to mean... Only what it means NOW.
First you attempt to insult me, then you tell me hugs and jesus is waiting for me in an attempt to win me over? Hows that working for you, dick?
jwissick 2 months ago
@jwissick Oh, see my hug was a good thing to pass on because you seem like you are having a bad night. Sometimes a bit of food and a nap can help. Have a few bananas and you will feel better. I didn't know apes get insulted though. Hugs is a friendly gesture. The only real insults usually come from you spewing crazy talk about your/my creator, very intolerant sometimes. But I do wish you hugs and joy bro. Merry christmas too. I hope you have a peaceful weekend too. Sorry for making you feel bad.
YouAreNotAMonkey 2 months ago
@YouAreNotAMonkey I am having great night.
The only real insults come from me insulting your creator? Wow. You really do have low self-esteem.
jwissick 2 months ago
@jwissick Actually I am a type of ape, not monkey.
SamWiseGingy 2 months ago
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@SamWiseGingy I am aware of that... You missed in your reply....
jwissick 2 months ago
@jwissick Well then, what makes a human life a person? Why are you unable to answer such a basic question without back peddling? IF sentience is your standard then you have to defend my right to kill my cousins. (CON>>>)
nicodemous52 2 months ago
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@nicodemous52 Been there. Explained that.
jwissick 2 months ago
@jwissick No, you really haven't "explained that" becauese every time you do I point out the flaw in your reasoning, and then you change your explanition and by the time the next video you are back to your old arguments as if you were never shown the flaws in its logic.
nicodemous52 2 months ago
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@nicodemous52 Yes, I have done it. I am sorry it's not to your satisfaction.
Learn to live with disappointment.
jwissick 2 months ago
@jwissick (<<<CON)Let us suppose for a sec that they are in fact sentient, if my cousins are then my cat must be. And, if my cat is then surely other animals are as well. And if they are then meat is murder. So, unless you are a vegetarian then you must be a hypocrite, period. That, or “our” value comes from being simply human…
nicodemous52 2 months ago
@jwissick - So when a person goes into a coma, they are no longer a person, James?
JMcH 2 months ago
@JMcH That is a "special case" which he gets to apply whenever his opinion is challenged by an inconvenient circumstance.
menishizawa 2 months ago
@menishizawa - James has a lot of "special cases" in his arsenal to fall back on when he gets cornered.
JMcH 2 months ago
@jwissick No one is telling a woman what to do with her body, well except the State. If a woman has a male baby in her stomach that male has a penis right? So it is not the womans body, it is the males body. Woman are currently told they cannot take illegal drugs with their own body, they cannot commit suicide with their own body, so it is not a stretch to say they cannot kill their baby. You have no good argument for killing babies, you should stick with fighting against God instead. God bless
YouAreNotAMonkey 2 months ago
@YouAreNotAMonkey It's a parasite living off her body. She certainly has a right to have that parasite removed.
And that's just more of your feeble religion trying to control people.
We have out grown your religion. It's beneath us.
jwissick 2 months ago
@SamWiseGingy I am sure the next part will to make sure women shoe sales are made illegal as well as all forms of contraception...
jwissick 2 months ago
@SamWiseGingy if you were to go out tonight and break any law what would happen to you by our justice system if you were caught? The authorities would do there jobs and arrest you. Not "us guys" but the authorities who have been hired and taken an oath to uphold the law. Your question is loaded worded completely incorrect. That's awfully stinky bait your trolling with.
RVGuy1959 2 months ago
@SamWiseGingy That's an easy one, it falls under the category of ex post facto.
menishizawa 2 months ago
@menishizawa No, I mean the women who disobey the laws you want to pass against abortion.
SamWiseGingy 2 months ago
@SamWiseGingy I am not proposing we enact any further laws, only consistently enforce laws already on the books. If you take a life, you are prosecuted either 1st-3rd degree murder, manslaughter, etc. Why is it that a drunk driver is charged with double homicide when he hits and kills a pregnant mother? Obviously, the law considers the fetus a human life in that case.
menishizawa 2 months ago
@menishizawa That's true. If a fetus is only property (per Roe) then why the double homicide?
SpeakaDaEnglish 2 months ago
@SamWiseGingy In addition, women in many states are charged with wreckless endangerment, neglect, or child abuse for taking illegal drugs and taking part in other activities where they knowingly can harm the fetus. What is the difference between sucking down a fifth of Jack on a regular basis while pregnant and asking another person to tear the baby apart, suck it's brains out just prior to birth, or inject a solution to chemically burn it to death?
menishizawa 2 months ago
If we confess our sins,
He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9
YouAreNotAMonkey 2 months ago
Wowzer! Hard truth!
Musicmonk84 2 months ago
Tonight on Boston talk radio they were talking about just this subject. Multiple women called to state that people who are against abortion are the same as those who commit rape and assaults. They stated that being against abortion is equivalent to rape and assault.
Wow! But we all know the truth that abortion is murder.
John 3:17
YouAreNotAMonkey 2 months ago
@YouAreNotAMonkey Strange isn't it? It's like a counterfeit Biblical argument.
SpeakaDaEnglish 2 months ago
Oh well, I can't make you see it if you don't want to.
SpeakaDaEnglish 2 months ago
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"Don't get mad because Israel placed more of a value on women than we do in the US."
You're joking? You're joking, right?
ddrninjette 2 months ago
@ddrninjette I am afraid he isn't joking....
jwissick 2 months ago
amen....
10cannons 2 months ago
@jwissick God doesn't change His mind. He has a plan for every soul of every man, woman and child (be they born or miscarried or aborted) and what He plans can no man question. I have read some of your other posts and you seem to be looking for confrontation. I'm not going to oblige. My conversation with you is closed unless you have something worthwhile to contribute. Thank you.
bluishspitdoggie 2 months ago
@bluishspitdoggie
Post and run? Can't put your views up for discussion? Pretty weak.
God doesn't change his mind? You really need to read the bible a little better. He changes his mind all over the place.
jwissick 2 months ago
@jwissick well, maybe a little study on proper hermeneutics will help you to see the error in that comment.
RVGuy1959 2 months ago
@RVGuy1959 It's not an error.
God does change his mind all over the bible. Try actually reading it.
jwissick 2 months ago
Oh, gag. That was a little over the top. Nevertheless, I wish her the best of luck. She deserves to be happy.
ddrninjette 2 months ago
I think the one who did murder in this situation was the rapist. The Bible equates rape with murder, and if as a result the child was done away with, then the blame is on him. He murdered this woman in his heart, and she suffered the consequences of his decision. I feel so sorry for her. She's equating killing with murder and it's not always the same thing in all circumstances.
SpeakaDaEnglish 2 months ago
@SpeakaDaEnglish No. The bible equates rape to a way to find a wife... not murder.
jwissick 2 months ago
@jwissick Care to tell me where you get that? How about a chapter and verse? hmmm?
Gordonboy2 2 months ago
@Gordonboy2 Deuteronomy 22:28-29
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: god.
jwissick 2 months ago
@jwissick I think we've had this discussion before. You're twisting the passages again. Forcible rape was punishable by death. There was even an instance where a seduction outside of marriage was considered a rape, and the rapist was cosequently killed. Innocent victims are never punished for being taken by force. It wouldn't even make sense for the Hebrews to embrace any "unclean" practice such as you're saying.
SpeakaDaEnglish 2 months ago
@SpeakaDaEnglish Doesn't change the fact of this verse.. Can't really take it out of context. It's rather clear.
jwissick 2 months ago
@jwissick
This verse is a protection for women.
In Hebrew culture (unlike ours), a woman's virginity was her prized possession, and a dowry was paid to her parents for training and raiser her right, as well as keeping her pure. If a woman was raped, she was effectively "used goods," and may never marry. Now she has a husband that has no choice but to treat her right, and he can never ditch her. Don't get mad because Israel placed more of a value on women than we do in the US.
greyspot00 2 months ago
@greyspot00 And that's the best solution your all-knowing all-powerful god can come up with??
Pathetic. Absolutely pathetic.
If you think that would "force" the husband to treat her right, you really are naive.
jwissick 2 months ago
@jwissick you have to understand that this instruction was for the nation of Israel and was to set them apart from the vile, horrible practices that were taking place by the occupying peoples everywhere. I do not second guess my Lord and His instructions and intentions, and we certainly cannot fully understand all of Gods directions in the Old Testament to His choosen people but.....the clay does not question the potter. Your Pride is your enemy.
RVGuy1959 2 months ago
@RVGuy1959 You should second guess it. His commands are vile and horrid.
He couldn't simply say that it wasn't her fault and doesn't harm her "value"? No..... Instead he says she should marry the bastard who raped her...
A child could come up with a better solution than the one your god came up with.
jwissick 2 months ago
@greyspot00 In Deut 22 there is a distinction between fornication and rape. If a woman was found innocent of fornication she was free to go (i.e. she had not willingly fornicated by was forced to), but the man who took her by force was to be stoned to death. Adultery and forcible rape were serious crimes, but innocent victims were not forced to marry their rapist.
SpeakaDaEnglish 2 months ago
@SpeakaDaEnglish That's not what the bible says....
jwissick 2 months ago
@jwissick It's in the very passage you pointed out. v. 25 of ch. 22 Only the assailant is punished because he did something to the woman that wasn't consensual.
v. 26 "Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her."
SpeakaDaEnglish 2 months ago
@SpeakaDaEnglish Different situation... In 22:25 she is engaged....
In 22-28-29 she is NOT married and not engaged.
jwissick 2 months ago
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@jwissick "Different situation... In 22:25 she is engaged.... In 22-28-29 she is NOT married and not engaged."
That's not the only difference. In v. 23 she is betrothed and fornicating with another man and not looking to be rescued, in 25 she is bethrothed and raped by a stranger and screaming for help. In 28 she is single and sleeping with a man and they are found out. She is not crying out for help (just like the woman in v. 23), but because she's not betrothed, he's to marry her.
SpeakaDaEnglish 2 months ago
@SpeakaDaEnglish No. In 28 she is RAPED. Not sleeping around, but RAPED.
Big difference.
jwissick 2 months ago
@SpeakaDaEnglish
but that is only if she calls out. if she does not call out, even if only out of frear for her life then she gets punished to.
celestialsalamander 2 months ago
@celestialsalamander "but that is only if she calls out. if she does not call out, even if only out of frear for her life then she gets punished to."
No. It's the exactly opposite. Read the passage entirely and in context. If you pull out one sentence here or there the meaning is lost. The gist is that this isn't a woman who is going along with the sex act willingly, in contrast with the woman who is. The part about the country vs. the city, or the screaming merely illustrates this point.
SpeakaDaEnglish 2 months ago
@celestialsalamander The woman who is quiet in the city (where it would be easy to be heard if you desired to protest) is quiet, because she doesn't want to be found committing adultery. The woman in the country who desires to protest (but can't be heard even if she did because no one is around to hear her anyway) is shown compassion, because she was taken advantage of. The city/country, screaming/not screaming is incidental. The point is that one is a willful sin, and the other is a crime.
SpeakaDaEnglish 2 months ago
@greyspot00 You realize that verse devalues women to that of property, don't you?
They placed LESS value of women. They viewed her as you would look at a used car.
How can you defend that? Doesn't that make you sick?
jwissick 2 months ago
@jwissick "How can you defend that? Doesn't that make you sick?"
You're trying to warp the discussion into an attack on people who were only speaking up in defense of the poor lady in this video. Jesus didn't teach that women were of less value than men, and we weren't defening the yoke of the law. YOU brought up the ancient laws, got them completely wrong, and simply cannot admit it. You just want to be combative with people here who are only being gracious to you.
SpeakaDaEnglish 2 months ago
@jwissick come on now j, stick to science and leave the philisophical and moral discussions to those who believe life is more than relativity and a chemicle reaction. 1 John 1:16 "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the BOASTFUL PRIDE of life is not from the Father, but is from the world." You should be proud j because your an exact representation of your mother earth.
RVGuy1959 2 months ago
@RVGuy1959 We tried that.....
It resulted in the dark ages....
jwissick 2 months ago
@jwissick I wonder to myself why does this guy goto every upload of wretched? Then I realized the reason he does is God is actually dealing with him through this channel. You hmmmmm and hah much but I think you protest too much. I think you are under great conviction.
BrotherMichael1000 2 months ago
@BrotherMichael1000 Oh please.
I do this because morons here think that rapists SHOULD be married to their attackers (see above).
Religion is a vile thing and morons here want to continue the evil it has brought.
jwissick 2 months ago
@jwissick Actually if your referring to Exodus 22:16-17 What part of the word entice do you not understand? If a man enticed-To attract by arousing hope or desire; lure
That is to say he who seduced a virgin with promises only to sleep with her. That isn't rape and that is a misrepresentation of scripture on your part. If you use other instances it is used and reiterated in the same context. If a man forced a woman he was to be put to death. He would be dead not married.
BrotherMichael1000 2 months ago
@BrotherMichael1000 "That is to say he who seduced a virgin with promises only to sleep with her. That isn't rape and that is a misrepresentation of scripture on your part."
This has been explained to him over and over. He cannot get his brain around the translation or the context. Even if he had the Hebrew text in front him it wouldn't help.
SpeakaDaEnglish 2 months ago
@BrotherMichael1000 Nope. Not referring to that.
jwissick 2 months ago
@jwissick Those who force a woman against their will where stoned to death. They wouldn't be married they would be dead. By the way the word force is the king james language used for rape. So again you are wrong.
BrotherMichael1000 2 months ago
@jwissick that's a very broad comment that very likely could be applied to a certain religious mind set. But to blame the cause of the entire "dark ages" period of human history to the orthodox Christian faith is simply not possible or true. Unfortunaley, we are allowed very few characters per post to allow us to dive into this very important subject. Come on j your dissapointing me you can do better. :-)
RVGuy1959 2 months ago
@jwissick
And today's view of women, that a man can take a girls purity, that they aren't special, that they aren't jewels in the eyes of God and are encouraged to throw themselves at whatever young pig gives them any attention is better?
Something is very wrong with you, and our sitcom-based society.
greyspot00 2 months ago
@greyspot00 A man can't take anything unless you think rape takes "purity" (whatever that is). It takes TWO to tango... ergo, it's voluntary.
There is nothing wrong with sex between consenting adults. The people that disagree are fundies that think sex is dirty or nasty and then use it to shame people.
If you don't like the idea that men are attracted to women and want to have sex with them, then take it up with the designer, not the design.
jwissick 2 months ago
@jwissick I hope I'm misunderstanding you when you say "A man can't take anything unless you think rape takes "purity" (whatever that is). It takes TWO to tango... ergo it's voluntary." Sounds to me you think that there is no such thing as rape. Only an idiot or a rapist would say such a thing. What about Children who are raped? Is THAT voluntary?! Rape takes so much more than purity. Rape causes its victims to have the opinion that sex is dirty or nasty, and takes a LONG time to reverse.
tinklouisianne 1 month ago
@jwissick
Did you basically say that there is no such thing as rape?
I think we're done here.
greyspot00 1 month ago
@greyspot00 I not saying that by any stretch!
I am saying the bible approves of rape as a means to find a wife and therefore the bible is immoral.
jwissick 1 month ago
@jwissick
"It takes TWO to tango... ergo it's voluntary."
Explain this statement please. In context.
It doesn't, and about half a dozen others have explained it to you already.
If you want to remain ignorant and purposely spread lies though, go right ahead.
greyspot00 1 month ago
@jwissick - "The bible equates rape to a way to find a wife"
lol! And Deut. 22:28-29 is your "proof" of this absurd statement?
JMcH 2 months ago
Abortion is murder!
ChristiansofAsia 2 months ago
@ChristiansofAsia I think abortion upon demand is murder. i.e., at any time, and for any reason. There are unusual circumstances where it would be rash to sacrifice the tree for the fruit (rape, incest, life of the mother), just as in others it would be rash to do the opposite (convenience). Shame that there was no network of support for her to make another choice, if she was strong enough to carry the child to term that is. It's so tragic, and so very sad.
SpeakaDaEnglish 2 months ago