I believe a lot of the problems with women in ministry stems from the Roman Catholic Church and Constantine when they made a hierarchical structure in the church I recommend people also read Jon Zens book What's With Paul And Women he also has a video on youtube titled the Clergy/Laity Lie. I used to believe that only men should lead until I started really studying the subject and realized that there is no hierarchy in Christ we are not to have a leadership pattern like the world does.
Where do you keep getting this idea Adam was listen to them ? He was obviously close by but that doesnt mean he heard them . Show in the bible where it says he did. Adam was to blame because was in charge just like when a child does something wrong the parents get blamed or when an employee does wrong the employer gets blamed. But even if he was with Eve why would he get blamed for the original sin if Eve sinned first? BECAUSE ADAM WAS IN CHARGE
What in the text tells you that Adam was "close by" rather than "with" Eve? Where does it specifically say that Adam was "in charge"? Where does it say that Adam was blamed for what Eve did?
@inhistime2007 The text as I can tell doesnt say exactly where Adam was but it suggests he was not a witness to the serpent speaking because there is a dialog between only Eve and the serpent and Eve gave Adam the fruit. Why wouldn't Adam take some fruit himself he heard everything that was going on?
The fact that Adam that is blamed for the "fall" of man and that Jesus is called "the second" is proof Adam is the one chiefly responsible.
@inhistime2007 The fact that God said to Eve "Your desire shall be for your husband and he shall rule over you" proves he has authority over her. You can't rule without authority
Not so. God prophesies what will be. God does not say, I will make him authority over you, nor does God say I want you to be underneath him. The rule that is mentioned by God is not a good rule. It is the word that means a tyrant. God never intended that man take over a woman. But sin has done terrible things to the relationship between men and women and men has dominated and controlled women through the world. God prophesied correctly.
The term "leading" is not used of husbands for wives. It is tradition no Scripture. Have a look at the video. I will have to shut down the conversation for now as I already said I am really busy.
I already gave you the grammar from the text that shows that Adam was "with" Eve. There is a dialog between Eve and the serpent and Adam kept silent, but the text says that he was "with" Eve. Why wouldn't Adam take some fruit himself? He was not deceived so he knew the serpent was lying. He didn't eat until he allowed his wife to eat and die, then he ate. For someone who knew the truth, Adam was a coward.
Knowing the truth and then being deceived about that truth so you no longer believe it, is not the same as one who is not deceived and continues to know the truth. Is God's word the truth?f Was Eve deceived or not?
Adam is blamed for the fall because he ate knowing the full truth. He brought rebellion into the world. Eve did not bring rebellion into the world. She did not eat in rebellion. She ate in deception. Her eyes were blinded. Adam's sin was a serious error of judgment. He was to protect the garden and he let the serpent in to deceive his wife and he kept silent. God rightfully cursed the earth on Adam's behalf.
We both agree that Adam was the chief one responsible. The disagreement is why is Adam responsible. The watchman on the wall let the enemy take his wife. Gross sin on Adam's behalf and true rebellion. If Eve had sinned in the same manner, Christ could not have come through the woman. Instead the blood line is tainted only because of Adam's sin. The serpent and Adam are the only ones that God says "because you (did this)..." God never said these words to Eve.
@inhistime2007 Why would Adam be a watchman on the wall and have to protect his wife if they have equal authority ? Adam had those duties because he had the role of leadership
Eve was not around when God made Adam the watchman on the wall. Adam saw God create some of the animals and he had experience with God before Eve was created. He had enough knowledge before she was created to not be deceived.
I am sorry that I cannot continue on the dialog as it is cutting into my video project. I suggest that if you are open enough to hear the other side and are willing to check it with the Scriptures, that you get a copy of the DVD and see the argument for yourself.
There was men. This is a tradition that no men were available. Please respect my time now and have a look at what I did and then email me privately and we can carry on a conversation later. God bless.
@inhistime2007 Man was created first God gave him authority over the earth and the responsibility of naming the animals and after that he decided to make woman because Adam had no suitable helper. How can you say woman is supposed to have authority over man if the above is true? You can't . God has clearly showed throughout the bible that the man is the head of the family. You can't argue with this fact if your being honest.
Genesis 1 God's testimony is that He gave them BOTH authority. The naming of the animals was before Eve was created and it was used to show Adam that he was the only one without a corresponding partner.
The Bible does not say that the woman is to have authority over the man nor does it say that the man is to have authority over the woman. Where did Eve take authority over Adam? If offering food is taking authority, then no man could eat with a woman because she might offer.
@inhistime2007 It's not that she gave him something to eat it is what she gave him to eat. The fruit that God told them not to eat. If God didn't give men the leadership role then why is God constantly giving men the leadership role throughout the bible? Why do you keep avoiding this question?
It is so important that you pay careful attention to the exact words that God said. God blamed Adam for "listening" to his wife. God said "because" you have "listened".
The Hebrew word for because is a conjunction particle. This shows the importance of what follows. God says Adam "listened" which means to hear, i.e., use the perception of hearing with the ears to process information. Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains.
The only "voice" of Eve that is recorded is her conversation with the serpent. Adam listened to the voice. He heard with the ears in order to process information. But he did nothing with that information. God did not blame Eve for "tempting" Adam with food. God said nothing to her at all about giving the food to Adam. It was not in the realm of a blame. It was Adam's sin by listening but remaining silent and eating. no mention about taking the food - just eating it.
The issue is whether God has withheld leadership from women. God did not withhold any leadership from Eve. God gave leadership to Deborah. Was God wrong to do that or does He have the right to do as He pleases with any of those who are made in His image?
@inhistime2007 In the case of Deborah you can see that it is the one and only time that a woman had a role of authority. Why ? Because this happened during a time where Israel was doing what was wrong in God's eyes Judges 4:1-4 . The men in Israel were unable or unwilling to step up and take a leadership role that a woman had to take leadership. God does find a man to take leadership,Barak,but he is so cowardly that God takes the glory he was going to give to Barak and gives it to a woman
Wrong, Women are in authority in the bible - Romans 16, Junia is an apostle. Phoebe is a minister or deacon. When a person is a prophet or phrophetess, they are in Aurhority in manner that others are to LISTEN and obey their prophecies.
Can't have it all ways. Women have leading roles in the bible and JESUS NEVER once says men are to rule or lead over women. NOT ONCE.
@coolwater55 Jesus didn't have to say anything about this because it was already understood by the Jews who were the people Jesus was talking to . The reason Paul addressed this issue is because he was talking to gentiles who did not already know the order put in place by God. Also being a prophetess is not the same as being a pastor over a congregation.
Sorry, Paul is talking to the JEWISH people as well as gentiles.
prophetess is someone who was honoured and LISTENED to and obeyed in a community. Prophet the same. So I guess Moses and Elijah as prophets are NOT considered important to lead people at all.
They are very similar in terms according to the OT.
Romans 16 Phoebe is a Deacon and Junia is an apostle.
@coolwater55 Are you saying Paul was a liar or confused? Paul traveled all over the Roman empire building churches so he was speaking mostly to gentiles. The NT books that Paul wrote were mostly letters to the gentiles in those churches in different cities --this is why they are titled Corinthians, Ephesians,Galatians, etc. Those were the names of the cities. A woman can be a prophetess but what Paul is getting at is that a woman shouldn't usurp the leadership role from a man
@blaq7427 1. Paul did not write all 13 epistles - perhaps 7 according to expert biblical scholars
2. Are you saying that PAUL is JESUS?
3. I know very well what "Paul" or anonymous authors were "getting at".
Which does not explain the huge discrepency in Pauls address in ROMANS 16 which is to commend PHOEBE a deacon and tell the other church leaders, men and women to assist her.
And to state that Junia is outstanding amoung apostles. Which means JUNIA a woman is an apostle.
@coolwater55 I didn't accuse of anything. If you don't believe what Paul wrote--then you must think that either he is a liar or he is confused. Simple logic Just because Jesus didn't say a lot specifically about gender roles doesn't mean he was for women being in leadership roles over men. Jesus also didn't mention homosexuality--does that mean that he would approve of that lifestyle?
I am only pointing out the discrepencies of thought. Either Paul commends women for leading in a church. Rm 16 or he changes his mind and says for men to subjucate women. Can't have it both ways.
Jesus did mention homosexuality. Mattew 19. He says some men are BORN that way. Eunuchs are men who like men or men who eschew a normal relationship with a woman. Only some were meant for celibacy.
Jesus is the one to follow if one wants consistency.
@coolwater55 A eunuch is a man who has no testicles -- either by birth or by castration . This is what Jesus meant by "birth or some are made that way hy men".
In Romans 16 Phoebe is a deacon but deacons dont preach they help out in the church doing various things.
A eunuch is a man without a SEX drive as well. A eunuch does not always denote a man without testicles. No one really knows for sure what Jesus actually meant or was he indeed defining men born that way, or men made that way by other men, or men becoming eunuchs for God. Diid men cut off their testicles to serve GOD? I don't think so, but Jesus says some will become Eunuchs for God.
@coolwater55 Regarding eunuchs, Jesus said "there be some eunuchs which made themselves eunuchs" which means some men live like eunuchs ,for example catholic priests, "for the sake of the kingdom of God." They don't literally castrate themselves.
marriage, born homosexual, made homosexual by other men or castrated by other men, or celibacy.
That is from Jesus. Celibacy is not saying one is castrated. But eunuchs made eunuchs by men, mean either castration (which was common when men were to protect women) or made homesexual.
Celibacy for the sake of GOD. Then why would Jesus not come out and say remain a virgin or be chaste? Instead he uses the term eunuch. Very interesting.
Pheobe - some bibles say minister or deacon. Junia is an apostle, I see men try to subvert those actual words into something they are not.
Mary Magadelene is the apostle to the apostles. She was the one to be chosen by Christ to witness him first resurrected. Then she is told to go tell the others. Even her walk with Christ throughout his ministry to his death and his resurrection shows she is an apostle.
Why don't you tell a "male deacon" that he cannot preach.
Jesus did not restrict women. Acts shows that both men and women present all received the power of the Holy Spirit.
So, are we to say that seeing as no one was breathed on exactly like the 12 apostles that no one else can be a church leader? That is how it seems men are trying to narrow things down.
In FACT women are Bishops, priests, pastors, prophetesses, etc in the church today and sanctioned by men who adhere to the bible.
@coolwater55 I may indeed be in disagreement with some biblical scholars and some so-called high church leaders who may share a lot of the biblical views you have,but more than likely they are apostate and don't truly know Jesus or have the Holy Spirit guiding their thoughts and actions. If I agreed with them I wouldn't be in the will of God. True born again Christians have a certain amount of spiritual discernment when it comes to biblical matters.
@blaq7427 James 4:4-6 You adulterous people. don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. If the world loves homosexuality and feminism then the world and these things that they love are enemies of God. If you are in agreement with homosexuality and feminism--then how can you claim to love God and want to be guided by Him?
@coolwater55 John 15:18-19 If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.
Jesus is saying here that if the world loves you or the things that you do then you are not a follower of Jesus because if you were the world would hate you.
@inhistime2007 In the case of Deborah you can see that it is the one and only time that a woman had a role of authority. Why ? Because this happened during a time where Israel was doing what was wrong in God's eyes Judges 4:1-4 . The men in Israel were unable or unwilling to step up and take a leadership role that a woman had to take leadership. God does find a man to take leadership,Barak,but he is so cowardly that God takes the glory he was going to give to Barak and gives it to a woman
I see that you have not answered the fact of Deborah's authority as Judge that God gave her. Why is it that you look only at the men and disregard God's women? If God had no problem in giving a woman authority to serve His people, then why do you have a problem?
@inhistime2007 Yes women can preach but they cant lead a congregation of men
Paul said Adam was not made for Eve but Eve was made for Adam(1Timothy 2:11) so this shows Men have the leadership role and Women have the role of helper. The church has been inundated by feminism this is why are so obsessed with grabbing power in the church.
God did not say that Adam was created to be in authority over Eve. After Adam sinned and rebelled against God, God prophesied that Adam would rule over Eve, but He never said told Adam to rule, nor did He tell Eve that she was to be under his authority. Adam took a rule that was never given him.
Submission - Ephesians 5 as Christians we are to submit to one another. It is a Christian mandate for all of us.
@inhistime2007 Are honestly trying to say that God wants wives to be the head of their husbands? So I guess Paul was lying or confused when he said
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to understand this: The head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God.
Again why is Adam blamed for original sin and not Eve if they both have the same level of authority ? This is something you just can't ignore if your being honest,but you can keep deceiving yourself.
"head of" is not authority over. In the context of the passage it means source of like the "head" of the river is the source of the river. The woman was taken from the man's body. The man is the source of the woman. God is the source of Christ. Jesus said in Hebrews 10:5 "you have prepared a body for me". God is the source of Christ Jesus since God prepared the body for Jesus to inhabit.
Why is Adam blamed for original sin? Because he is the only one who sinned in full rebellion, knowing the truth. He was the only one who was not deceived, yet he sinned with his eyes wide open. God says of Adam's sin in Hosea 6:7 that it is treason.
Authority is never mentioned when God curses the world because of Adam's sin. It is the kind of sin that he committed (treason) when he ate the fruit knowing that the serpent was lying. He was not deceived.
@inhistime2007 Hosea 6:7 says "But they have broken the agreement as Adam did;
they have been unfaithful to me." Which proves my point Eve sinned first yet Adam is blame because he was the one in authority Paul says in 1 Timothy 2:12-14 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. So Adam was not a worse sinner
Here is where Adam was a worse sinner - he stood by his wife while the serpent deceived her with a lie and Adam said nothing. He knew the truth, because he was not deceived, but he did nothing to save her from the lie of the serpent. He left her eat. Then he ate of the fruit with his eyes wide open fully knowing the truth. Someone who knows the truth and withholds that truth in order to save another is guilty of a grave sin.
@inhistime2007 How do you know that Adam was anywhere near his wife when she was deceived? How do you know his eyes wee wide open as opposed to Eve ? Why would his eyes be any more open than Eve's ? Can you give scripture to back up what you are saying?
6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.
She saw..she ate...she gave...her husband with her. Also God's testimony is that Adam listened to the voice of his wife. Genesis 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife"
@inhistime2007 This just proves my point . Why would God say you listen to your wife if that was the natural order of things ? Clearly God is mad that Adam allowed his wife to take the leadership role instead of Adam stepping up and telling Eve that this is wrong. Otherwise he would not have made it a point to say Adam listened to his wife.
The only voice that is recorded of Eve, is of her speaking to the serpent. When Eve spoke to the serpent she was being deceived. It is up to the one who is not to deceived to speak up about the truth.
@inhistime2007 Adam was not speaking because he was likely not close enough to witness the snake and the woman speaking. But clearly Adam took the blame because he was in charge and he followed Eve instead of leading Eve.
God says nothing about Eve taking a leadership role. If this was the case, why didn't he confront her for leading? If giving a person something is an illegal "leading" then women could not pass the beans at a meal or pass the communion elements down the row. The issue for God is Adam "listening". I will continue this in my next comment.
@inhistime2007 Eve giving Adam something to eat is not illegal but what she gave him to eat was illegal this most likely why said the man will rule over woman because it was the punishment for trying to take a man's position. This was an extra punishment on top of pain in child birth for that very reason while Adam only had one punishment
God did not say that He was giving Eve a punishment of having the man rule over her. He gave a prophesy of what the man would do - what life would be like for her in this sinful world. We cannot put words in God's mouth which He did not say. He did not tell Adam to rule her and He did not tell Eve that Adam's actions would be her punishment.
God does not indict Eve for giving Adam the fruit. God indicts Adam for eating the fruit, but God lays no blame on Eve for giving to Adam. There is so much tradition that men have laid upon the Scriptures that needs to be stripped away so that we can take what God has said rather than what men had added onto what He has said.
The issue about Adam "listening" is the Hebrew term "sm". The primary meaning is:
"use the perception of hearing with the ears to process information"
Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains : Hebrew (Old Testament)
Adam was listening to his wife talk with the serpent. He was processing the information with the hearing of his ear, but he kept silence when he should have spoken up. He allowed the enemy to enter the garden and deceive his wife and he was silent
@inhistime2007 The bible never says Adam heard the serpent . All it says is that he listened to Eve and the serpent and Eve had a dialog without Adam so that would be strong evidence that Adam was a witness to their conversation .
The Bible says that Adam was WITH Eve. If Adam heard Eve talking with the serpent then He also heard the serpent's answer to Eve. Adam was not deaf. Adam was certainly witness to his wife's conversation with the serpent and the fact that he did nothing at all to help her out of her deception is a very serious matter and God indicts Adam for merely listening.
When you discover men can birth babies, then worry about the hearsay about what adam and eve said or even who talked at all. NO one knows. To keep trying to debate this discussion of a first man and woman is really not productive. in FACT it is counterproductive. Especially to women.
@inhistime2007 Also Paul says the woman was deceived not Adam so clearly Adam did not hear the conversation between the serpent and Eve but he must have been very close by
Gen 1 and Gen 2 CONTRADICT each other in the ORDER of Gods creation.
Animals and vegetation are CREATED by GOD PRIOR to HUMANS in GEN 1.
Gen 2 says ADAM is ALONE and then animals are created, so INSTANTLY that CONTRADICTS what is said in Gen 1.
Male and female are made in OUR image at the EXACT same time according to GEN 1 and made LAST of all creation to rule over the earth. GOD says let THEM (male and female) rule over animals and creatures and all.
@coolwater55 So anyone ARGUING about Adam and Eve and nitpicking about "he said, she said" are WRONG to even worry about that myth story. Which was written centuries AFTER Gen 1 and to control those peoples who REVERED womans ability to create life out of HER WOMB. Women had power as priestesses in the agrigarian societies.
The MALE GOD tribes did NOT like that power and created that MYTH to CRUSH women in general.
ALL HISTORIANS and many biblical historians know this is true.
The bible is a MAN made book, out of hundreds of separate ancient manuscripts over course millenium. Ancient men, writing about ancient male bronze age exploits.
AGREED that We SHOULD follow CHRIST (Holy Spirit) (who lives EVERYWHERE heaven and earth. But only the works written in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and maybe a few other books like 1 John etc that ALIGN with the 4 gospels really can be followed. Other than that, the rape, violence or CUSTOMS are not about CHRIST at all.
Do you think that Men birth babies? Do you agree that Lot should have offered his virgin daughters to be gang raped? Do you eat pork and shellfish?
I find that many people who believe they are given some form of authority to interpret the bible and REBUKE or CORRECT people have NOT really read the whole bible, nor do they understand real history.
your version and mine are two different things, seeing as I read the bible as it is WRITTEN and from a BIASED male writing.
That would come from someone who doesn't believe the Bible is inspired. However I believe the Bible is inspired exactly as it is, and we have God's testimony and Eve's testimony of what was said. That is powerful evidence.
I believe that God has written exactly what He wanted. Some of it was written as history - what happened. Not everything that happened was God's plan, but it all is written so that we can learn from it. We can learn from men's errors so that we can follow God's righteous ways.
The information regarding Eve is given with the sequential conjunction, the Hebrew (w) meaning "and". The grammar is such that all of the things that happened in Genesis 3:6 are connected.Thus the actions she saw, she took, she ate, she gave, he ate are connected. Her husband was with her while she saw, while she took, while she ate and while she gave. It is an event that didn't need to happen. He could have saved his wife with the knowledge of the truth that he had.
The reason why Adam's eyes were more open to Eve is documented in the DVD. These small comment sections would not do justice. However, the bottom line is that Adam was absolutely, in no way, deceived. He ate with full knowledge that the serpent was lying. Eve was fully deceived and the one who had knowledge that could have kept her from eating was at her side. The silence of Adam is one of the saddest tales of Scripture.
@inhistime2007 Where are u getting this idea that Adam had more knowledge than Eve? Why Adam have more knowledge than Eve if they were were equal in authority? If anything Eve had more knowledge than Adam because her eyes were opened first. Just because these things happened sequentially doesnt mean event happened one right after another but even if it did it still would mean that Adam was to blame because he was the leader but didnt lead they way he should have
@inhistime2007 Also you cant ignore the biblical track record God dealt with men when it came to leadership of the family and the nation of Israel and making covenants. If God meant for women to have the same authority as men then why didnt God have female priests and queens over Israel? Y is God the God of Abraham Issac and Jacob and Not Sarah Rebecca and Rachel? Y did Jesus come as a man and only pick male disciples ? God's track record speaks for itself whether you want to listen or not.
@blaq7427 you said - If you cant trust the bible than how can you trust Christ?
The bible is his word."
We CAN and DO TRUST CHRIST and we do NOT NEED a bible to do so, although the bible can be "instrumental" in our conversion at times. The bible is part biased history of the Jewish peoples wanderings - which lead to the enlightenment of CHRIST in the NT.
One can get very LOST if they rely on either personal interpretation or lack of understanding of how the bible was put together.
We should RESPECT the bible, but NEVER revere the bible.
Who is CHRIST, HOW does CHRIST work, WHAT does CHRIST SAY and what does CHRIST do? and what/when does CHRIST say (via the Holy Spirit) or in HIS words via scripture?
Does CHRIST say we will be killed if we eat pork or shellfish (Deut)?
Does CHRIST tells us to throw our daughters in the street to be gang raped? (Lot)
Christ DOES say: feed the poor, tend the sick, etc and to love one another. Matt 22-25, 1 John 4 etc.
The Biblical record is that God put women in places of authority for the good of His people. Deborah was a Judge that God raised up. Priests were not the "authority". Their duty was to present sacrifices. God was the God of Sarah. In fact God disregarded Abraham's seed with other women and said that only the seed with Sarah would be the promised seed.
Jesus came as a man because He was the last Adam. The first man Adam brought rebellion into the world and there was a need for the last Adam to undo where the first man failed. There is no need for a second Eve.
@inhistime2007 Also you are ignoring the track record of the bible . God has only chosen men to to lead Israel. God only came to men and and made covenants with them . Jesus only chose men to be his disciples . God chose only men to write the bible. God made man in his image and made woman in man 's image. God set the man as head of the family. God is male and all the angels are male. Jesus came down to earth as a man. Hmmm, do you see a pattern here ?
Women were also Jesus' disciples. One of these disciples was the first one that Jesus appeared to at the tomb. The woman is also the head of the house.
14 So I would have younger widows marry, bear children, manage their households, and give the adversary no occasion for slander.
The Greek term translated "manage" is "oikodespotein": Liddell, & Scott A Greek-English lexicon defines this: to be master of a house or head of a family (1 Tim 5:14)
@inhistime2007 Yes women are disciples but leaders of the disciples were all men
Y didnt Jesus choose a female to be 1 of the 12 disciples?When Judas was to replaced why did they say in Acts 1:21-22 "So now a man must become a witness with us of Jesus' being raised from the dead. He must be one of the men who were part of our group during all the time the Lord Jesus was among us—from the time John was baptizing people until the day Jesus was taken up from us to heaven." Y didnt choose a woman?
Let me ask you a question...why didn't Jesus pick a Gentile to be one of the 12? Does Jesus not picking a Gentile mean that no Gentile is allowed to be a true disciple of Jesus, that a Gentile cannot be a leader, or that a Gentile is not in the image of God?
While the disciples chose a replacement for Judas, this was not the choice of Jesus. Jesus chose who He wanted to - He chose Paul the Apostle.
The fact is that Jesus' key disciples were all Jewish and Paul was a Jew. No non-Jew was in this group, but this fact did not eliminate a non-Jew in any sense in fulfilling their calling in the Church.
An argument from silence is not a good argument to stop God from using whom He wants to. The first witnesses at the tomb were women.
God is not male. God is a Spirit and a Spirit does not have sexual parts. Angels are not male. They are also spirits. Jesus came as a male because the first man brought sin into the world through his rebellion. It was not the first woman who was overtly rebellious - it was the man. Jesus had to be a man to redeem all that the first man destroyed through his rebellion. There is no need for a second Eve since Eve did not bring sin into the world.
@inhistime2007 God is not a man but he is male. The Father and The Son does that ring a bell ? This why it is said that man was made in God's image and woman was made in man's image. Eve was the first to eat of the tree that God forbade them to eat from so how was man rebellious before woman? Adam was to blame because he was the head of the family not Eve. God Man Woman this the natural order God has put in place.
Eve was the first to eat, but God does not determine the blame by who was first. God determines the blame by the rebellion that caused Adam's sin. One was rebellious, the other was deceived. God does not blame Adam for what Eve did. God charges Adam for what He did. It was treason in God's eyes.
God gave man and woman equal rule (see Gen 1) and God never told the newly created Eve that Adam was to rule over her. The natural order was equals ruling together.
Paul says that the woman is made in the for the man (not in the man's image). She is in the image of God because God said so in Genesis 1 and God does not contradict Himself. What Scripture says that the woman is not in the image of God?
@inhistime2007 1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to understand this: The head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God
@inhistime2007 Ephesians 5 says specifically that " wives should submit to their husbands
so I dont see how you can be confused . And then it goes on to compare husbands to Christ and wives to the church. Christ loves and died for the church likewise a husbands should love and die for his wife. So who is the head ? The church or Christ? the answer is Christ so if men are being compared to Christ and wives to the church then obviously husbands have the position of authority over their wives .
@inhistime2007 Also The bible often refers to Adam as the one to introduce sin into the world eventhough it was Eve who sinned first. Why? Because Adam was the one in authority and was ultimately responsible . This is why Jesus was considered the "second Adam" not the second Eve.
It doesn't say Adam was in authority. The Bible says that Adam was not deceived therefore he sinned with his eyes wide open in rebellion. Eve sinned because of deception so only Adam brought rebellion into the world. There was no second Eve needed. That is why the Messiah could come through a woman but not through a man.
=>this woman explain that Paul did not connect leadership with creation but look at v.12 the authority is with men and the reason for authority is in v.13 look at the word FOR that means because that means because man was first formed and she was trying to deny this clear truth..
Not true. Maybe you had better watch the entire presentation on video. There is no denying the FOR. The reason is connected to a prohibition, not to leadership which is never mentioned.
So since God exists and functions in complete unity and without any conflict in roles of authority and submission, it is only natural that his creation who is made in GOD'S IMAGE should reflect the same characteristics of the Trinity. So your interpretation is erroneous and you are rejecting God ordained gender roles and altering God's word to fit your own selfish desires. Repent!
It is a mistake to take the temporary roles during the incarnation and make the Trinity as one person as taking authority over another. This has led to the teaching that the Father has a higher glory than the Son and that the Son cannot be prayed to. It is unorthodox. See the clip on The Trinity Eternity Past to Eternity Future to hear the way the Son has been downgraded to a place where these men are agreeing with the JW's
The WORD of God is completely equal with the Father. Those who make Him as lesser in authority or in glory have missed His complete Deity from the beginning. Have a look at the clip of "The Trinity from eternity past to eternity future" to see how The WORD has been down graded. Let's just believe God's Word rather than the word of man.
1. Gen 1 contradicts Gen 2. MAN and WOMAN are created simultaneously AFTER all other creations in OUR IMAGE.
2. Adam was alone on earth? barren earth? then animals are created for ADAM?
3. WOMEN BIRTH babies. Gen 2 is written centuries after Gen 1 during a time of conflict with the power of women of the time. God is GOD and in charge of all. But God is JEALOUS?
Women are the true cocreators of life, with men as a HELPER in many respects, not the other way around.
Genesis 1 does not contract Genesis 2. Genesis 1 is the big picture of creation and Genesis 2 is the focus on the exact details of the creation of the man and the woman.
1. Gen 1 STATES a DIFFERENT ORDER of creation. Man and woman are CREATED LAST and simultaneously in OUR IMAGE. Animals and plants are created PRIOR to humans.
2. Gen 2 STATES that a MAN was on a BARREN earth with NOTHING. HUGE contradiction.
If the DETAILS of Gen 2 focus on creation of man and woman, either GEN 1 is in GRAVE ERROR or GEN 2 is in GRAVE ERROR. ONE is WRONG.
They cannot BOTH be right, for they are CONTRADICTING the FACTS.
Genesis 1 does not say that men and women were created simultaneously. It just states that they were created in His image. Plants in Genesis 1 were created as seeds and in chapter 2 it states that the seeds had not yet spouted as there was no rain. Animals were created before Adam and after Adam as God formed animals and brought them to Adam to name. No contradiction at all.
1. NO. Humans were created in OUR Image and at the EXACT same time. There is NO time lapse between male and female creation in Gen 1.
2. Sorry, but your theory is wrong. ANIMALS were CREATED before humans in Gen 1. But in Gen 2, GOD apparently says ADAM was LONELY, so he CREATED animals to keep him company. ADAM names the animals, but that still apparently does not appease adams LONLINESS.
Contradiction EVIDENT. Which bible are you reading anyway.
Genesis 1 does say that both are created in God's image but it does not say that they were created at the exact same time. It gives no indication of who was created first or second and neither does it say exactly how each was created, just that they were both in His image.
Chapter 2 does not say that Adam was lonely. It says that God SAID it was not good for Adam to be alone. Adam did not realize his aloneness until after he named the animals.
Genesis 1 states that male and female are created in OUR image. (para) And it does breath both words male and female in the exact same moment of creation. So you are NOT reading your bible right.
Gen 2 MOST definitely CONTRADICTS Gen 1 by 1000's or even millions of years of creation.
Adam CAN NOT possibly be LONELY, for ANIMALS were CREATED LONG before HUMANS in GEN 1. The ORDER of creation is wrong in Gen 2. ERGO either Gen 1 is WRONG or GEN 2 is WRONG. They cannot both be RIGHT.
Genesis 1 does not talk about the "moment of creation" so mentioning male and female cannot possibly be taken to mean they were created at the exact same moment. That would be greatly reading into the text.
Genesis 2 does not contradict Genesis 1 and it does not mention millions of years.
Again, God does not say that Adam is "lonely". He said that he was "alone". The context interprets that as he was the only one without a corresponding mate. That is "alone" in the context.
Hebrew word: alone, by one’s self, apart, i.e., a marker of the only item of a class in a place (Ge 32:25); 2. alone, only, i.e., the only entity in a class, with no focus on a place (Dt 8:3); 3. besides, in addition to, apart from, i.e., pertaining to a state of something being in an addition to what already exists (Lev 9:17),
Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains : Hebrew
It doesn't say "very alone". It doesn't say "lonely".
Nothing that you have said shows anykind of contradiction. It only shows your inability to read the text in context and that you read into what the text says instead of pulling out what the text is really saying. When you realize that God's Word can be fully trusted rather than relying on your own wisdom in what text to believe and what text you think is wrong, you will submit to God, trust Him alone and not lean on your own understanding. I pray that for you.
I will pray for you that you are able to approach the Word of God with faith instead of unbelief. There are no contradictions and all that you have said about contradictions has fallen to the ground under examination.
@coolwater55 - The Bible doesn't say that God created animals for man's companionship. God created animals to be ruled over by the man and the woman. There is no word at all in Genesis 1 that says "simultaneously". You cannot add words to the context to make it say what you want. Christians who do believe in the inerrancy do not see a contradiction in Genesis 2. You have given no clear sense of a contradiction.
" 26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in OUR image, in OUR likeness, so that THEY may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
" 27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them;
" 28 God blessed THEM and said to THEM, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
@coolwater55 - The question is which Christ do you believe in? The Christ of the Bible quoted the Scripture as truth. He never claimed that the account in Genesis contradicted the truth. It stands complete and without error, for both Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 are God's inspired Truth.
I believe in CHRIST of heaven and earth who is written ABOUT in the bible.
FOR Christ came first, remains then and today and will be forever. Ancient Men wanted to put their impression of the stories and of Christ in writing. They gathered all the ancient writings (of the Jewish story) and the early Christians wrote about their experiences. Which was compiled (and fought over) for centuries (millenium to be exact).
I always find it quite fascinating when people pull out questioning the LEVEL of ones belief based on their "interpretation" of words written by men. Whether "inspired or not".
" 25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written."
The bible may be beautiful God inspired guide, but JESUS lives way outside the bible in ways we CANNOT fully fathom. But if we align ourselves with Christ, Christ shows us that this is so. What we see is many believe in the BIBLE over and above CHRIST a form of worshiping an inanimate object. Believe in CHRIST first and foremost as Jesus continually says, Matt, John etc, and then the bible can be placed in proper context.
There is NO contradiction in the Biblical account. The events of chapter 1 and 2 are stated from a different perspective but neither contradicts the other.
We believe that WOMEN birth babies and GOD created WOMEN and MEN simultaneously to cocreate on earth.
When you see or find evidence that MEN birthed babies back then, come back and post. So, what many who do NOT think for themselves, propose to believe in oral traditional stories from ancient BRONZE age men about how babies are born.
GEN 1 MAKES sense. GEN 2 is a slam against women and our brain/physical evidence sensibilities.
God did not create women and men simultaneously otherwise there would not have been a sinless Savior. See my blog post to see why it is so important that Adam was created first and Eve was created from his body.
This sounds very good and I am sure many who do not study for themselves find this compelling. But there are HUGE problems with your view. The Trinity functions in roles of Authority and submission. The Ontological Trinity speaks of a equally almighty deity who exist in 3 persons yet all are equal in essence. none is greater than the other, yet in the Economic Trinity we see roles. The Father sends the Son, the Son submits to the Fathers will, the Spirit to both.
But regardless, you can't have two people have the same position of authority and expect ANYTHING but chaos.
Now it does say they are to submit one to another. The man submits to the wife by seeking her counsel and considering her opinion in the decision making process and not making decision unilaterally. It doesn't mean he submits to her the same way she submits to him. She can cetainly voice her opinion and state her ideas, but not in a contentious manner.
cont 2. ..purposes. Neither is better than the other except at the roles they are designed for, so it is for man and woman. What is amazing is how hateful and vitriolic some of the arguments are by some woman. What's even more is they now twist the scriptures to say that EVE didn't sin, LOL she was just deceived, it was only ADAM who sinned. There were many places in the NT for Paul or Peter to set the record straight in placing primary blame on Adam and they don't, but rather reaffirm
Nobody here said that Eve didn't sin. She did sin, but she sinned through deception. Adam sinned willfully and with his eyes wide open. Since he was not deceived he should have protected her with his knowledge. That was his moral obligation.
@inhistime2007 Actually she sinned just as willfully as Adam did. Adam told her that they weren't allowed to as a command by God, which is what she quoted when talking to the serpent. She just wanted to know what was behind door number 2. She believed the serpent and not her husband or God.
There is a reason satan went after her, he knew there was something in her nature that would make her susceptible to the enticement of being equal to God. She continues to make the same mistake today.
Where do you get the idea that Eve quoted Adam? Eve quoted God directly. God spoke to both of them in Genesis chapter 1 and Eve's testimony is that God said... Adam did not contradict the serpent. Adam was silent. The Bible doesn't say that the woman had something in her nature. The Bible says that she was deceived and it links this to her deception. It is a mistake to add to what the Scripture actually says.
I believe a lot of the problems with women in ministry stems from the Roman Catholic Church and Constantine when they made a hierarchical structure in the church I recommend people also read Jon Zens book What's With Paul And Women he also has a video on youtube titled the Clergy/Laity Lie. I used to believe that only men should lead until I started really studying the subject and realized that there is no hierarchy in Christ we are not to have a leadership pattern like the world does.
misterkgb1 3 weeks ago
Where do you keep getting this idea Adam was listen to them ? He was obviously close by but that doesnt mean he heard them . Show in the bible where it says he did. Adam was to blame because was in charge just like when a child does something wrong the parents get blamed or when an employee does wrong the employer gets blamed. But even if he was with Eve why would he get blamed for the original sin if Eve sinned first? BECAUSE ADAM WAS IN CHARGE
blaq7427 1 month ago
@blaq7427
What in the text tells you that Adam was "close by" rather than "with" Eve? Where does it specifically say that Adam was "in charge"? Where does it say that Adam was blamed for what Eve did?
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@inhistime2007 The text as I can tell doesnt say exactly where Adam was but it suggests he was not a witness to the serpent speaking because there is a dialog between only Eve and the serpent and Eve gave Adam the fruit. Why wouldn't Adam take some fruit himself he heard everything that was going on?
The fact that Adam that is blamed for the "fall" of man and that Jesus is called "the second" is proof Adam is the one chiefly responsible.
blaq7427 1 month ago
@blaq7427 God has clearly established the family model
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
blaq7427 1 month ago
@blaq7427
This verse is not talking about ruling over another person. Show me from Genesis where God ever told Adam that he was to take authority over Eve?
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@inhistime2007 The fact that God said to Eve "Your desire shall be for your husband and he shall rule over you" proves he has authority over her. You can't rule without authority
blaq7427 1 month ago
@blaq7427
Not so. God prophesies what will be. God does not say, I will make him authority over you, nor does God say I want you to be underneath him. The rule that is mentioned by God is not a good rule. It is the word that means a tyrant. God never intended that man take over a woman. But sin has done terrible things to the relationship between men and women and men has dominated and controlled women through the world. God prophesied correctly.
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@inhistime2007 Yes men have abused their power but men are supposed to lead with humility and treat his wife the way he wants to be treated
blaq7427 1 month ago
@blaq7427
The term "leading" is not used of husbands for wives. It is tradition no Scripture. Have a look at the video. I will have to shut down the conversation for now as I already said I am really busy.
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@blaq7427
I already gave you the grammar from the text that shows that Adam was "with" Eve. There is a dialog between Eve and the serpent and Adam kept silent, but the text says that he was "with" Eve. Why wouldn't Adam take some fruit himself? He was not deceived so he knew the serpent was lying. He didn't eat until he allowed his wife to eat and die, then he ate. For someone who knew the truth, Adam was a coward.
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@inhistime2007 Eve knew the truth just like Adam. Adam was deceived by Eve otherwise he wouldnt have eaten the fruit
blaq7427 1 month ago
@blaq7427
Knowing the truth and then being deceived about that truth so you no longer believe it, is not the same as one who is not deceived and continues to know the truth. Is God's word the truth?f Was Eve deceived or not?
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@blaq7427
Adam is blamed for the fall because he ate knowing the full truth. He brought rebellion into the world. Eve did not bring rebellion into the world. She did not eat in rebellion. She ate in deception. Her eyes were blinded. Adam's sin was a serious error of judgment. He was to protect the garden and he let the serpent in to deceive his wife and he kept silent. God rightfully cursed the earth on Adam's behalf.
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@blaq7427
We both agree that Adam was the chief one responsible. The disagreement is why is Adam responsible. The watchman on the wall let the enemy take his wife. Gross sin on Adam's behalf and true rebellion. If Eve had sinned in the same manner, Christ could not have come through the woman. Instead the blood line is tainted only because of Adam's sin. The serpent and Adam are the only ones that God says "because you (did this)..." God never said these words to Eve.
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@inhistime2007 Why would Adam be a watchman on the wall and have to protect his wife if they have equal authority ? Adam had those duties because he had the role of leadership
blaq7427 1 month ago
@blaq7427
Eve was not around when God made Adam the watchman on the wall. Adam saw God create some of the animals and he had experience with God before Eve was created. He had enough knowledge before she was created to not be deceived.
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@inhistime2007
I am sorry that I cannot continue on the dialog as it is cutting into my video project. I suggest that if you are open enough to hear the other side and are willing to check it with the Scriptures, that you get a copy of the DVD and see the argument for yourself.
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@inhistime2007 Sometimes a woman may have to step if there are no men but this clearly is not God's ideal
blaq7427 1 month ago
@blaq7427
There was men. This is a tradition that no men were available. Please respect my time now and have a look at what I did and then email me privately and we can carry on a conversation later. God bless.
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@inhistime2007 Man was created first God gave him authority over the earth and the responsibility of naming the animals and after that he decided to make woman because Adam had no suitable helper. How can you say woman is supposed to have authority over man if the above is true? You can't . God has clearly showed throughout the bible that the man is the head of the family. You can't argue with this fact if your being honest.
blaq7427 1 month ago
@blaq7427
Genesis 1 God's testimony is that He gave them BOTH authority. The naming of the animals was before Eve was created and it was used to show Adam that he was the only one without a corresponding partner.
The Bible does not say that the woman is to have authority over the man nor does it say that the man is to have authority over the woman. Where did Eve take authority over Adam? If offering food is taking authority, then no man could eat with a woman because she might offer.
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@inhistime2007 It's not that she gave him something to eat it is what she gave him to eat. The fruit that God told them not to eat. If God didn't give men the leadership role then why is God constantly giving men the leadership role throughout the bible? Why do you keep avoiding this question?
blaq7427 1 month ago
@blaq7427
It is so important that you pay careful attention to the exact words that God said. God blamed Adam for "listening" to his wife. God said "because" you have "listened".
The Hebrew word for because is a conjunction particle. This shows the importance of what follows. God says Adam "listened" which means to hear, i.e., use the perception of hearing with the ears to process information. Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains.
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@blaq7427
The only "voice" of Eve that is recorded is her conversation with the serpent. Adam listened to the voice. He heard with the ears in order to process information. But he did nothing with that information. God did not blame Eve for "tempting" Adam with food. God said nothing to her at all about giving the food to Adam. It was not in the realm of a blame. It was Adam's sin by listening but remaining silent and eating. no mention about taking the food - just eating it.
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@blaq7427
The issue is whether God has withheld leadership from women. God did not withhold any leadership from Eve. God gave leadership to Deborah. Was God wrong to do that or does He have the right to do as He pleases with any of those who are made in His image?
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@inhistime2007 In the case of Deborah you can see that it is the one and only time that a woman had a role of authority. Why ? Because this happened during a time where Israel was doing what was wrong in God's eyes Judges 4:1-4 . The men in Israel were unable or unwilling to step up and take a leadership role that a woman had to take leadership. God does find a man to take leadership,Barak,but he is so cowardly that God takes the glory he was going to give to Barak and gives it to a woman
blaq7427 1 month ago
@blaq7427
Wrong, Women are in authority in the bible - Romans 16, Junia is an apostle. Phoebe is a minister or deacon. When a person is a prophet or phrophetess, they are in Aurhority in manner that others are to LISTEN and obey their prophecies.
Can't have it all ways. Women have leading roles in the bible and JESUS NEVER once says men are to rule or lead over women. NOT ONCE.
coolwater55 1 month ago
@coolwater55 Jesus didn't have to say anything about this because it was already understood by the Jews who were the people Jesus was talking to . The reason Paul addressed this issue is because he was talking to gentiles who did not already know the order put in place by God. Also being a prophetess is not the same as being a pastor over a congregation.
blaq7427 1 month ago
@blaq7427
So Paul is GOD?
The OT - has the last say?
What is JESUS role in all of this.
Sorry, Paul is talking to the JEWISH people as well as gentiles.
prophetess is someone who was honoured and LISTENED to and obeyed in a community. Prophet the same. So I guess Moses and Elijah as prophets are NOT considered important to lead people at all.
They are very similar in terms according to the OT.
Romans 16 Phoebe is a Deacon and Junia is an apostle.
coolwater55 1 month ago
@coolwater55 Are you saying Paul was a liar or confused? Paul traveled all over the Roman empire building churches so he was speaking mostly to gentiles. The NT books that Paul wrote were mostly letters to the gentiles in those churches in different cities --this is why they are titled Corinthians, Ephesians,Galatians, etc. Those were the names of the cities. A woman can be a prophetess but what Paul is getting at is that a woman shouldn't usurp the leadership role from a man
blaq7427 1 month ago
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coolwater55 1 month ago
@blaq7427
Either Paul is not in authority in Romans 16 or in Corhinthians or Tim etc.
Men cannot have it both ways.
The defining factor regarding the role and worth and authority of women is from JESUS and only JESUS.
Arguing about what Paul said does NOT constitute what Jesus said, meant and lived and tells us today.
Seems to me - men expound on Pauls customs and cultural ways - Paul or anonymous author.
Jesus said no such thing.
coolwater55 1 month ago
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@blaq7427
Either Paul is not in authority in Romans 16 or in Corhinthians or Tim etc.
Men cannot have it both ways.
The defining factor regarding the role and worth and authority of women is from JESUS and only JESUS.
Arguing about what Paul said does NOT constitute what Jesus said, meant and lived and tells us today.
Seems to me - men expound on Pauls customs and cultural ways - Paul or anonymous author.
Jesus said no such thing.
coolwater55 1 month ago
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@blaq7427 1. Paul did not write all 13 epistles - perhaps 7 according to expert biblical scholars
2. Are you saying that PAUL is JESUS?
3. I know very well what "Paul" or anonymous authors were "getting at".
Which does not explain the huge discrepency in Pauls address in ROMANS 16 which is to commend PHOEBE a deacon and tell the other church leaders, men and women to assist her.
And to state that Junia is outstanding amoung apostles. Which means JUNIA a woman is an apostle.
coolwater55 1 month ago
@blaq7427 I find it very lame to jump to accusations of me calling Paul a liar or (some men accuse me of saying God is a liar).
but I am actually pointing out real history and real scripture.
I never deny Christ. But I do KNOW how to read the bible and see discrepencies.
Seems to me, men gloss over Jesus life, words, ministry to make a point about subjucating women.
But even Gal 3:28 says all are equal.
Things to ponder.
God bless.
coolwater55 1 month ago
@coolwater55 I didn't accuse of anything. If you don't believe what Paul wrote--then you must think that either he is a liar or he is confused. Simple logic Just because Jesus didn't say a lot specifically about gender roles doesn't mean he was for women being in leadership roles over men. Jesus also didn't mention homosexuality--does that mean that he would approve of that lifestyle?
blaq7427 1 month ago
I am only pointing out the discrepencies of thought. Either Paul commends women for leading in a church. Rm 16 or he changes his mind and says for men to subjucate women. Can't have it both ways.
Jesus did mention homosexuality. Mattew 19. He says some men are BORN that way. Eunuchs are men who like men or men who eschew a normal relationship with a woman. Only some were meant for celibacy.
Jesus is the one to follow if one wants consistency.
coolwater55 1 month ago
@coolwater55 A eunuch is a man who has no testicles -- either by birth or by castration . This is what Jesus meant by "birth or some are made that way hy men".
In Romans 16 Phoebe is a deacon but deacons dont preach they help out in the church doing various things.
blaq7427 1 month ago
A eunuch is a man without a SEX drive as well. A eunuch does not always denote a man without testicles. No one really knows for sure what Jesus actually meant or was he indeed defining men born that way, or men made that way by other men, or men becoming eunuchs for God. Diid men cut off their testicles to serve GOD? I don't think so, but Jesus says some will become Eunuchs for God.
coolwater55 1 month ago
@coolwater55 Regarding eunuchs, Jesus said "there be some eunuchs which made themselves eunuchs" which means some men live like eunuchs ,for example catholic priests, "for the sake of the kingdom of God." They don't literally castrate themselves.
blaq7427 1 month ago
There are 4 states in this passage.
marriage, born homosexual, made homosexual by other men or castrated by other men, or celibacy.
That is from Jesus. Celibacy is not saying one is castrated. But eunuchs made eunuchs by men, mean either castration (which was common when men were to protect women) or made homesexual.
Celibacy for the sake of GOD. Then why would Jesus not come out and say remain a virgin or be chaste? Instead he uses the term eunuch. Very interesting.
coolwater55 1 month ago
Pheobe - some bibles say minister or deacon. Junia is an apostle, I see men try to subvert those actual words into something they are not.
Mary Magadelene is the apostle to the apostles. She was the one to be chosen by Christ to witness him first resurrected. Then she is told to go tell the others. Even her walk with Christ throughout his ministry to his death and his resurrection shows she is an apostle.
Why don't you tell a "male deacon" that he cannot preach.
coolwater55 1 month ago
@coolwater55 You keep confusing an apostle or deacon for someone who leads a congregation.
blaq7427 1 month ago
@blaq7427
I am not confused at all about minister, apostle, deacon, - Junia is listed as outstanding amoung apostles.
The translation in Rm 16:1 uses either deacon or minister.
Leading a congregation? standing on a pulpit? is not the only way people influence or sway others in religion.
However, the terms are many, prophets also have authority and sway over people. Moses and Elijah ie.
Someone forming a CHURCH to create a heirarchy which has leaders and followers.
coolwater55 1 month ago
Jesus did not restrict women. Acts shows that both men and women present all received the power of the Holy Spirit.
So, are we to say that seeing as no one was breathed on exactly like the 12 apostles that no one else can be a church leader? That is how it seems men are trying to narrow things down.
In FACT women are Bishops, priests, pastors, prophetesses, etc in the church today and sanctioned by men who adhere to the bible.
coolwater55 1 month ago
So your argument is not with me. It is with Jesus. It is with not reading everything in the bible as it does say - women are leaders.
Your argument is with the biblical scholars and high church leaders who are probably much more educated and learned than the average person.
Because they agree now that Jesus did NOT restrict women and in FACT women can lead a church or congregation.
So, take it up with those guys. I did not change the laws or ways at all.
coolwater55 1 month ago
@coolwater55 I may indeed be in disagreement with some biblical scholars and some so-called high church leaders who may share a lot of the biblical views you have,but more than likely they are apostate and don't truly know Jesus or have the Holy Spirit guiding their thoughts and actions. If I agreed with them I wouldn't be in the will of God. True born again Christians have a certain amount of spiritual discernment when it comes to biblical matters.
blaq7427 1 month ago
@blaq7427 James 4:4-6 You adulterous people. don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. If the world loves homosexuality and feminism then the world and these things that they love are enemies of God. If you are in agreement with homosexuality and feminism--then how can you claim to love God and want to be guided by Him?
blaq7427 1 month ago
@coolwater55 John 15:18-19 If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.
Jesus is saying here that if the world loves you or the things that you do then you are not a follower of Jesus because if you were the world would hate you.
blaq7427 1 month ago
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@inhistime2007 In the case of Deborah you can see that it is the one and only time that a woman had a role of authority. Why ? Because this happened during a time where Israel was doing what was wrong in God's eyes Judges 4:1-4 . The men in Israel were unable or unwilling to step up and take a leadership role that a woman had to take leadership. God does find a man to take leadership,Barak,but he is so cowardly that God takes the glory he was going to give to Barak and gives it to a woman
blaq7427 1 month ago
@blaq7427
I see that you have not answered the fact of Deborah's authority as Judge that God gave her. Why is it that you look only at the men and disregard God's women? If God had no problem in giving a woman authority to serve His people, then why do you have a problem?
inhistime2007 1 month ago
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How do you know Christ said feed the poor?
YOU READ THE BIBLE HELLOOO IF YOU CAN'T TRUST THE BIBLE THEN YOU CAN'T TRUST CHRIST
YOU CAN'T PICK AND CHOOSE WHAT PART OF THE BIBLE YOU WILL ACCEPT AND WHICH PART YOU WON'T IT ALL COMES FROM GOD
blaq7427 1 sec ago
blaq7427 1 month ago
that's the reason why women should be kept in silence! that's why Paul did not allow them to teach!
they have been commanded to be in subjection but they do not! thy have commanded not to usurp authority and they do!
how much more if they would have been given the authority!
enginebites 1 month ago
@enginebites
Women have been given authority to preach the gospel. What authority have I taken that is not given by God?
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@inhistime2007 Yes women can preach but they cant lead a congregation of men
Paul said Adam was not made for Eve but Eve was made for Adam(1Timothy 2:11) so this shows Men have the leadership role and Women have the role of helper. The church has been inundated by feminism this is why are so obsessed with grabbing power in the church.
blaq7427 1 month ago
@blaq7427
God didn't give Adam leadership over Eve. God made them both rulers of the earth.
So you agree that women can preach. Is a person leading when they are preaching?
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@inhistime2007 The bible says wives should submit to there husbands. What do you think that means?
A woman can pastor to and lead other woman but not men. This why Paul referenced Adam and Eve . This was ordained by God from the beginning
blaq7427 1 month ago
@blaq7427
Where did God give leadership over Eve "from the beginning"?
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@inhistime2007 Genesis 2:18 The LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”
Genesis 3:18 To the woman he said, “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”
Colossians 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
1 Peter 3:1 Wives.... submit yourselves to your own husbands
blaq7427 1 month ago
@blaq7427
God did not say that Adam was created to be in authority over Eve. After Adam sinned and rebelled against God, God prophesied that Adam would rule over Eve, but He never said told Adam to rule, nor did He tell Eve that she was to be under his authority. Adam took a rule that was never given him.
Submission - Ephesians 5 as Christians we are to submit to one another. It is a Christian mandate for all of us.
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@inhistime2007 Are honestly trying to say that God wants wives to be the head of their husbands? So I guess Paul was lying or confused when he said
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to understand this: The head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God.
Again why is Adam blamed for original sin and not Eve if they both have the same level of authority ? This is something you just can't ignore if your being honest,but you can keep deceiving yourself.
blaq7427 1 month ago
@blaq7427
"head of" is not authority over. In the context of the passage it means source of like the "head" of the river is the source of the river. The woman was taken from the man's body. The man is the source of the woman. God is the source of Christ. Jesus said in Hebrews 10:5 "you have prepared a body for me". God is the source of Christ Jesus since God prepared the body for Jesus to inhabit.
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@blaq7427
Why is Adam blamed for original sin? Because he is the only one who sinned in full rebellion, knowing the truth. He was the only one who was not deceived, yet he sinned with his eyes wide open. God says of Adam's sin in Hosea 6:7 that it is treason.
Authority is never mentioned when God curses the world because of Adam's sin. It is the kind of sin that he committed (treason) when he ate the fruit knowing that the serpent was lying. He was not deceived.
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@inhistime2007 Hosea 6:7 says "But they have broken the agreement as Adam did;
they have been unfaithful to me." Which proves my point Eve sinned first yet Adam is blame because he was the one in authority Paul says in 1 Timothy 2:12-14 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. So Adam was not a worse sinner
blaq7427 1 month ago
@blaq7427
Hosea 6:7 (NASB95)
7 But like Adam they have transgressed the covenant; There they have dealt treacherously against Me.
The Hebrew term for treacherously is "badgu". This means:
betray, act. treacherously, i.e., to be faithless to a principle, person or group
Swanson, J. (1997). Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains : Hebrew (Old Testament)
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@blaq7427
Here is where Adam was a worse sinner - he stood by his wife while the serpent deceived her with a lie and Adam said nothing. He knew the truth, because he was not deceived, but he did nothing to save her from the lie of the serpent. He left her eat. Then he ate of the fruit with his eyes wide open fully knowing the truth. Someone who knows the truth and withholds that truth in order to save another is guilty of a grave sin.
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@inhistime2007 How do you know that Adam was anywhere near his wife when she was deceived? How do you know his eyes wee wide open as opposed to Eve ? Why would his eyes be any more open than Eve's ? Can you give scripture to back up what you are saying?
blaq7427 1 month ago
@blaq7427
Genesis 3:6 (NASB)
6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.
She saw..she ate...she gave...her husband with her. Also God's testimony is that Adam listened to the voice of his wife. Genesis 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife"
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@inhistime2007 This just proves my point . Why would God say you listen to your wife if that was the natural order of things ? Clearly God is mad that Adam allowed his wife to take the leadership role instead of Adam stepping up and telling Eve that this is wrong. Otherwise he would not have made it a point to say Adam listened to his wife.
blaq7427 1 month ago
@blaq7427
The only voice that is recorded of Eve, is of her speaking to the serpent. When Eve spoke to the serpent she was being deceived. It is up to the one who is not to deceived to speak up about the truth.
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@inhistime2007 Adam was not speaking because he was likely not close enough to witness the snake and the woman speaking. But clearly Adam took the blame because he was in charge and he followed Eve instead of leading Eve.
blaq7427 1 month ago
@blaq7427
God says nothing about Eve taking a leadership role. If this was the case, why didn't he confront her for leading? If giving a person something is an illegal "leading" then women could not pass the beans at a meal or pass the communion elements down the row. The issue for God is Adam "listening". I will continue this in my next comment.
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@inhistime2007 Eve giving Adam something to eat is not illegal but what she gave him to eat was illegal this most likely why said the man will rule over woman because it was the punishment for trying to take a man's position. This was an extra punishment on top of pain in child birth for that very reason while Adam only had one punishment
blaq7427 1 month ago
@blaq7427
God did not say that He was giving Eve a punishment of having the man rule over her. He gave a prophesy of what the man would do - what life would be like for her in this sinful world. We cannot put words in God's mouth which He did not say. He did not tell Adam to rule her and He did not tell Eve that Adam's actions would be her punishment.
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@blaq7427
God does not indict Eve for giving Adam the fruit. God indicts Adam for eating the fruit, but God lays no blame on Eve for giving to Adam. There is so much tradition that men have laid upon the Scriptures that needs to be stripped away so that we can take what God has said rather than what men had added onto what He has said.
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@blaq7427
The issue about Adam "listening" is the Hebrew term "sm". The primary meaning is:
"use the perception of hearing with the ears to process information"
Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains : Hebrew (Old Testament)
Adam was listening to his wife talk with the serpent. He was processing the information with the hearing of his ear, but he kept silence when he should have spoken up. He allowed the enemy to enter the garden and deceive his wife and he was silent
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@inhistime2007 The bible never says Adam heard the serpent . All it says is that he listened to Eve and the serpent and Eve had a dialog without Adam so that would be strong evidence that Adam was a witness to their conversation .
blaq7427 1 month ago
@blaq7427
The Bible says that Adam was WITH Eve. If Adam heard Eve talking with the serpent then He also heard the serpent's answer to Eve. Adam was not deaf. Adam was certainly witness to his wife's conversation with the serpent and the fact that he did nothing at all to help her out of her deception is a very serious matter and God indicts Adam for merely listening.
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@inhistime2007
When you discover men can birth babies, then worry about the hearsay about what adam and eve said or even who talked at all. NO one knows. To keep trying to debate this discussion of a first man and woman is really not productive. in FACT it is counterproductive. Especially to women.
coolwater55 1 month ago
@inhistime2007 Also Paul says the woman was deceived not Adam so clearly Adam did not hear the conversation between the serpent and Eve but he must have been very close by
blaq7427 1 month ago
@blaq7427
Gen 1 and Gen 2 CONTRADICT each other in the ORDER of Gods creation.
Animals and vegetation are CREATED by GOD PRIOR to HUMANS in GEN 1.
Gen 2 says ADAM is ALONE and then animals are created, so INSTANTLY that CONTRADICTS what is said in Gen 1.
Male and female are made in OUR image at the EXACT same time according to GEN 1 and made LAST of all creation to rule over the earth. GOD says let THEM (male and female) rule over animals and creatures and all.
coolwater55 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@coolwater55 So anyone ARGUING about Adam and Eve and nitpicking about "he said, she said" are WRONG to even worry about that myth story. Which was written centuries AFTER Gen 1 and to control those peoples who REVERED womans ability to create life out of HER WOMB. Women had power as priestesses in the agrigarian societies.
The MALE GOD tribes did NOT like that power and created that MYTH to CRUSH women in general.
ALL HISTORIANS and many biblical historians know this is true.
coolwater55 1 month ago
Comment removed
coolwater55 1 month ago
The bible is a MAN made book, out of hundreds of separate ancient manuscripts over course millenium. Ancient men, writing about ancient male bronze age exploits.
AGREED that We SHOULD follow CHRIST (Holy Spirit) (who lives EVERYWHERE heaven and earth. But only the works written in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and maybe a few other books like 1 John etc that ALIGN with the 4 gospels really can be followed. Other than that, the rape, violence or CUSTOMS are not about CHRIST at all.
coolwater55 1 month ago
@coolwater55
The Bible is God's inspired Word, given to us as communication from Him.
2 Timothy 3:16–17 (NIV)
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
inhistime2007 1 month ago
Do you think that Men birth babies? Do you agree that Lot should have offered his virgin daughters to be gang raped? Do you eat pork and shellfish?
I find that many people who believe they are given some form of authority to interpret the bible and REBUKE or CORRECT people have NOT really read the whole bible, nor do they understand real history.
your version and mine are two different things, seeing as I read the bible as it is WRITTEN and from a BIASED male writing.
coolwater55 1 month ago
@coolwater55
That would come from someone who doesn't believe the Bible is inspired. However I believe the Bible is inspired exactly as it is, and we have God's testimony and Eve's testimony of what was said. That is powerful evidence.
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@coolwater55
I believe that God has written exactly what He wanted. Some of it was written as history - what happened. Not everything that happened was God's plan, but it all is written so that we can learn from it. We can learn from men's errors so that we can follow God's righteous ways.
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@blaq7427
The information regarding Eve is given with the sequential conjunction, the Hebrew (w) meaning "and". The grammar is such that all of the things that happened in Genesis 3:6 are connected.Thus the actions she saw, she took, she ate, she gave, he ate are connected. Her husband was with her while she saw, while she took, while she ate and while she gave. It is an event that didn't need to happen. He could have saved his wife with the knowledge of the truth that he had.
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@blaq7427
The reason why Adam's eyes were more open to Eve is documented in the DVD. These small comment sections would not do justice. However, the bottom line is that Adam was absolutely, in no way, deceived. He ate with full knowledge that the serpent was lying. Eve was fully deceived and the one who had knowledge that could have kept her from eating was at her side. The silence of Adam is one of the saddest tales of Scripture.
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@inhistime2007 Where are u getting this idea that Adam had more knowledge than Eve? Why Adam have more knowledge than Eve if they were were equal in authority? If anything Eve had more knowledge than Adam because her eyes were opened first. Just because these things happened sequentially doesnt mean event happened one right after another but even if it did it still would mean that Adam was to blame because he was the leader but didnt lead they way he should have
blaq7427 1 month ago
@inhistime2007 Also you cant ignore the biblical track record God dealt with men when it came to leadership of the family and the nation of Israel and making covenants. If God meant for women to have the same authority as men then why didnt God have female priests and queens over Israel? Y is God the God of Abraham Issac and Jacob and Not Sarah Rebecca and Rachel? Y did Jesus come as a man and only pick male disciples ? God's track record speaks for itself whether you want to listen or not.
blaq7427 1 month ago
@blaq7427 you said - If you cant trust the bible than how can you trust Christ?
The bible is his word."
We CAN and DO TRUST CHRIST and we do NOT NEED a bible to do so, although the bible can be "instrumental" in our conversion at times. The bible is part biased history of the Jewish peoples wanderings - which lead to the enlightenment of CHRIST in the NT.
One can get very LOST if they rely on either personal interpretation or lack of understanding of how the bible was put together.
coolwater55 1 month ago
We should RESPECT the bible, but NEVER revere the bible.
Who is CHRIST, HOW does CHRIST work, WHAT does CHRIST SAY and what does CHRIST do? and what/when does CHRIST say (via the Holy Spirit) or in HIS words via scripture?
Does CHRIST say we will be killed if we eat pork or shellfish (Deut)?
Does CHRIST tells us to throw our daughters in the street to be gang raped? (Lot)
Christ DOES say: feed the poor, tend the sick, etc and to love one another. Matt 22-25, 1 John 4 etc.
coolwater55 1 month ago
Comment removed
blaq7427 1 month ago
@blaq7427
The Biblical record is that God put women in places of authority for the good of His people. Deborah was a Judge that God raised up. Priests were not the "authority". Their duty was to present sacrifices. God was the God of Sarah. In fact God disregarded Abraham's seed with other women and said that only the seed with Sarah would be the promised seed.
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@blaq7427
Jesus came as a man because He was the last Adam. The first man Adam brought rebellion into the world and there was a need for the last Adam to undo where the first man failed. There is no need for a second Eve.
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@inhistime2007 Also you are ignoring the track record of the bible . God has only chosen men to to lead Israel. God only came to men and and made covenants with them . Jesus only chose men to be his disciples . God chose only men to write the bible. God made man in his image and made woman in man 's image. God set the man as head of the family. God is male and all the angels are male. Jesus came down to earth as a man. Hmmm, do you see a pattern here ?
blaq7427 1 month ago
@blaq7427
Women were also Jesus' disciples. One of these disciples was the first one that Jesus appeared to at the tomb. The woman is also the head of the house.
1 Timothy 5:14 (ESV)
14 So I would have younger widows marry, bear children, manage their households, and give the adversary no occasion for slander.
The Greek term translated "manage" is "oikodespotein": Liddell, & Scott A Greek-English lexicon defines this: to be master of a house or head of a family (1 Tim 5:14)
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@inhistime2007 Yes women are disciples but leaders of the disciples were all men
Y didnt Jesus choose a female to be 1 of the 12 disciples?When Judas was to replaced why did they say in Acts 1:21-22 "So now a man must become a witness with us of Jesus' being raised from the dead. He must be one of the men who were part of our group during all the time the Lord Jesus was among us—from the time John was baptizing people until the day Jesus was taken up from us to heaven." Y didnt choose a woman?
blaq7427 1 month ago
@blaq7427
Let me ask you a question...why didn't Jesus pick a Gentile to be one of the 12? Does Jesus not picking a Gentile mean that no Gentile is allowed to be a true disciple of Jesus, that a Gentile cannot be a leader, or that a Gentile is not in the image of God?
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@blaq7427
While the disciples chose a replacement for Judas, this was not the choice of Jesus. Jesus chose who He wanted to - He chose Paul the Apostle.
The fact is that Jesus' key disciples were all Jewish and Paul was a Jew. No non-Jew was in this group, but this fact did not eliminate a non-Jew in any sense in fulfilling their calling in the Church.
An argument from silence is not a good argument to stop God from using whom He wants to. The first witnesses at the tomb were women.
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@blaq7427
God is not male. God is a Spirit and a Spirit does not have sexual parts. Angels are not male. They are also spirits. Jesus came as a male because the first man brought sin into the world through his rebellion. It was not the first woman who was overtly rebellious - it was the man. Jesus had to be a man to redeem all that the first man destroyed through his rebellion. There is no need for a second Eve since Eve did not bring sin into the world.
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@inhistime2007 God is not a man but he is male. The Father and The Son does that ring a bell ? This why it is said that man was made in God's image and woman was made in man's image. Eve was the first to eat of the tree that God forbade them to eat from so how was man rebellious before woman? Adam was to blame because he was the head of the family not Eve. God Man Woman this the natural order God has put in place.
blaq7427 1 month ago
@blaq7427
Both the man and the woman are made in God's image.
Genesis 1:27 (NASB95)
27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Please quote from the Scripture where the Bible says that God is a male and please explain how a spirit without sexual organs can be male.
Man and woman were both created in God's image so God's "image" cannot be male.
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@blaq7427
Eve was the first to eat, but God does not determine the blame by who was first. God determines the blame by the rebellion that caused Adam's sin. One was rebellious, the other was deceived. God does not blame Adam for what Eve did. God charges Adam for what He did. It was treason in God's eyes.
God gave man and woman equal rule (see Gen 1) and God never told the newly created Eve that Adam was to rule over her. The natural order was equals ruling together.
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@blaq7427
Paul says that the woman is made in the for the man (not in the man's image). She is in the image of God because God said so in Genesis 1 and God does not contradict Himself. What Scripture says that the woman is not in the image of God?
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@inhistime2007 1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to understand this: The head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God
How can you ignore this?
blaq7427 1 month ago
@inhistime2007 Ephesians 5 says specifically that " wives should submit to their husbands
so I dont see how you can be confused . And then it goes on to compare husbands to Christ and wives to the church. Christ loves and died for the church likewise a husbands should love and die for his wife. So who is the head ? The church or Christ? the answer is Christ so if men are being compared to Christ and wives to the church then obviously husbands have the position of authority over their wives .
blaq7427 1 month ago
@inhistime2007 Also The bible often refers to Adam as the one to introduce sin into the world eventhough it was Eve who sinned first. Why? Because Adam was the one in authority and was ultimately responsible . This is why Jesus was considered the "second Adam" not the second Eve.
blaq7427 1 month ago
@blaq7427
It doesn't say Adam was in authority. The Bible says that Adam was not deceived therefore he sinned with his eyes wide open in rebellion. Eve sinned because of deception so only Adam brought rebellion into the world. There was no second Eve needed. That is why the Messiah could come through a woman but not through a man.
inhistime2007 1 month ago
1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve
=>this woman explain that Paul did not connect leadership with creation but look at v.12 the authority is with men and the reason for authority is in v.13 look at the word FOR that means because that means because man was first formed and she was trying to deny this clear truth..
enginebites 1 month ago
@enginebites
Not true. Maybe you had better watch the entire presentation on video. There is no denying the FOR. The reason is connected to a prohibition, not to leadership which is never mentioned.
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@inhistime2007 please look again
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.FOR Adam was first formed, then Eve
enginebites 1 month ago
@enginebites
You can't preach the gospel in silence. This is not talking about the gospel.
inhistime2007 1 month ago
@enginebites
Muslims will not stop Christian women from preaching the gospel.
inhistime2007 1 month ago
1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
I don't think anyone need to be a bible scholar to understand this passages. its crystal clear women are NOT allowed!
this woman is a perfect example of [1Tim.2:12] usurp authority over the man!
enginebites 1 month ago
@enginebites
Really? What authority are you talking about?
inhistime2007 1 month ago
So since God exists and functions in complete unity and without any conflict in roles of authority and submission, it is only natural that his creation who is made in GOD'S IMAGE should reflect the same characteristics of the Trinity. So your interpretation is erroneous and you are rejecting God ordained gender roles and altering God's word to fit your own selfish desires. Repent!
daboomerang319 4 months ago
@daboomerang319
It is a mistake to take the temporary roles during the incarnation and make the Trinity as one person as taking authority over another. This has led to the teaching that the Father has a higher glory than the Son and that the Son cannot be prayed to. It is unorthodox. See the clip on The Trinity Eternity Past to Eternity Future to hear the way the Son has been downgraded to a place where these men are agreeing with the JW's
inhistime2007 4 months ago
@inhistime2007 WOW! Temporary Roles?? OK I am not even going to bother replying. Why beat a dead horse.
Temporary Roles?? SMH!!!
daboomerang319 4 months ago
@daboomerang319
The WORD of God is completely equal with the Father. Those who make Him as lesser in authority or in glory have missed His complete Deity from the beginning. Have a look at the clip of "The Trinity from eternity past to eternity future" to see how The WORD has been down graded. Let's just believe God's Word rather than the word of man.
inhistime2007 4 months ago
@inhistime2007
1. Gen 1 contradicts Gen 2. MAN and WOMAN are created simultaneously AFTER all other creations in OUR IMAGE.
2. Adam was alone on earth? barren earth? then animals are created for ADAM?
3. WOMEN BIRTH babies. Gen 2 is written centuries after Gen 1 during a time of conflict with the power of women of the time. God is GOD and in charge of all. But God is JEALOUS?
Women are the true cocreators of life, with men as a HELPER in many respects, not the other way around.
coolwater55 3 months ago
@coolwater55
Genesis 1 does not contract Genesis 2. Genesis 1 is the big picture of creation and Genesis 2 is the focus on the exact details of the creation of the man and the woman.
inhistime2007 3 months ago
1. Gen 1 STATES a DIFFERENT ORDER of creation. Man and woman are CREATED LAST and simultaneously in OUR IMAGE. Animals and plants are created PRIOR to humans.
2. Gen 2 STATES that a MAN was on a BARREN earth with NOTHING. HUGE contradiction.
If the DETAILS of Gen 2 focus on creation of man and woman, either GEN 1 is in GRAVE ERROR or GEN 2 is in GRAVE ERROR. ONE is WRONG.
They cannot BOTH be right, for they are CONTRADICTING the FACTS.
coolwater55 3 months ago
@coolwater55
Genesis 1 does not say that men and women were created simultaneously. It just states that they were created in His image. Plants in Genesis 1 were created as seeds and in chapter 2 it states that the seeds had not yet spouted as there was no rain. Animals were created before Adam and after Adam as God formed animals and brought them to Adam to name. No contradiction at all.
inhistime2007 3 months ago
@inhistime2007
1. NO. Humans were created in OUR Image and at the EXACT same time. There is NO time lapse between male and female creation in Gen 1.
2. Sorry, but your theory is wrong. ANIMALS were CREATED before humans in Gen 1. But in Gen 2, GOD apparently says ADAM was LONELY, so he CREATED animals to keep him company. ADAM names the animals, but that still apparently does not appease adams LONLINESS.
Contradiction EVIDENT. Which bible are you reading anyway.
coolwater55 3 months ago
@coolwater55
Genesis 1 does say that both are created in God's image but it does not say that they were created at the exact same time. It gives no indication of who was created first or second and neither does it say exactly how each was created, just that they were both in His image.
Chapter 2 does not say that Adam was lonely. It says that God SAID it was not good for Adam to be alone. Adam did not realize his aloneness until after he named the animals.
inhistime2007 3 months ago
Genesis 1 states that male and female are created in OUR image. (para) And it does breath both words male and female in the exact same moment of creation. So you are NOT reading your bible right.
Gen 2 MOST definitely CONTRADICTS Gen 1 by 1000's or even millions of years of creation.
Adam CAN NOT possibly be LONELY, for ANIMALS were CREATED LONG before HUMANS in GEN 1. The ORDER of creation is wrong in Gen 2. ERGO either Gen 1 is WRONG or GEN 2 is WRONG. They cannot both be RIGHT.
coolwater55 3 months ago
@coolwater55
Genesis 1 does not talk about the "moment of creation" so mentioning male and female cannot possibly be taken to mean they were created at the exact same moment. That would be greatly reading into the text.
Genesis 2 does not contradict Genesis 1 and it does not mention millions of years.
Again, God does not say that Adam is "lonely". He said that he was "alone". The context interprets that as he was the only one without a corresponding mate. That is "alone" in the context.
inhistime2007 3 months ago
@inhistime2007
It does not matter if the word is lonely or alone. Actually, the word ALONE denotes that he was VERY ALONE and makes my point stronger.
coolwater55 3 months ago
@coolwater55
Hebrew word: alone, by one’s self, apart, i.e., a marker of the only item of a class in a place (Ge 32:25); 2. alone, only, i.e., the only entity in a class, with no focus on a place (Dt 8:3); 3. besides, in addition to, apart from, i.e., pertaining to a state of something being in an addition to what already exists (Lev 9:17),
Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains : Hebrew
It doesn't say "very alone". It doesn't say "lonely".
inhistime2007 2 months ago
@coolwater55
Nothing that you have said shows anykind of contradiction. It only shows your inability to read the text in context and that you read into what the text says instead of pulling out what the text is really saying. When you realize that God's Word can be fully trusted rather than relying on your own wisdom in what text to believe and what text you think is wrong, you will submit to God, trust Him alone and not lean on your own understanding. I pray that for you.
inhistime2007 3 months ago
@inhistime2007
I see your blinders are firmly on. The scriptures ACTUALLY in myriad of ways contradict themselves.
NOW, answer this question please.
Do WOMEN BIRTH BABIES?
coolwater55 3 months ago
@coolwater55
I will pray for you that you are able to approach the Word of God with faith instead of unbelief. There are no contradictions and all that you have said about contradictions has fallen to the ground under examination.
inhistime2007 2 months ago
@inhistime2007
A fifth grader can DEDUCE the CONTRADICTION between Genesis 1 and 2 when read in modern English.
The cart does NOT come before the horse.
If God created animals and vegetation before HUMANS then Adam could NOT have been lonely and God then creates animals for his companionship.
Gen 1 male and female are created simultaneously. AT the SAME time. No distinction.
No matter how things work, no one can deny women BIRTH babies and that Gen 2 makes NO sense.
coolwater55 2 months ago
@coolwater55 - The Bible doesn't say that God created animals for man's companionship. God created animals to be ruled over by the man and the woman. There is no word at all in Genesis 1 that says "simultaneously". You cannot add words to the context to make it say what you want. Christians who do believe in the inerrancy do not see a contradiction in Genesis 2. You have given no clear sense of a contradiction.
inhistime2007 2 months ago
Gen 1: 26- 28
" 26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in OUR image, in OUR likeness, so that THEY may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
" 27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them;
MALE AND FEMALE he created them."
coolwater55 2 months ago
" 28 God blessed THEM and said to THEM, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
coolwater55 2 months ago
God created mankind in OUR Image and instantly names them MALE and FEMALE and puts the word THEY and THEM in the passage that follows.
3. WHERE is there a distinction of TIME between making MEN FIRST and then FORMING a WOMAN MUCH later?
4. Animals and vegetation are CREATED PRIOR to male AND female. So Adam could NOT have been alone on earth.
5. The SEMANTIC structure and grammar of GEN 1 is clearly about male and female being FORMED by GOD in OUR image - simultaneously.
coolwater55 2 months ago
@inhistime2007
I will pray for you too. My belief in CHRIST is just fine!
coolwater55 2 months ago
@coolwater55 - The question is which Christ do you believe in? The Christ of the Bible quoted the Scripture as truth. He never claimed that the account in Genesis contradicted the truth. It stands complete and without error, for both Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 are God's inspired Truth.
inhistime2007 2 months ago
I believe in CHRIST of heaven and earth who is written ABOUT in the bible.
FOR Christ came first, remains then and today and will be forever. Ancient Men wanted to put their impression of the stories and of Christ in writing. They gathered all the ancient writings (of the Jewish story) and the early Christians wrote about their experiences. Which was compiled (and fought over) for centuries (millenium to be exact).
coolwater55 2 months ago
@inhistime2007
I always find it quite fascinating when people pull out questioning the LEVEL of ones belief based on their "interpretation" of words written by men. Whether "inspired or not".
The bible also states in John 21:25
" 25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written."
coolwater55 2 months ago
The bible may be beautiful God inspired guide, but JESUS lives way outside the bible in ways we CANNOT fully fathom. But if we align ourselves with Christ, Christ shows us that this is so. What we see is many believe in the BIBLE over and above CHRIST a form of worshiping an inanimate object. Believe in CHRIST first and foremost as Jesus continually says, Matt, John etc, and then the bible can be placed in proper context.
Blessings this CHRISTMAS to you and your family.
coolwater55 2 months ago
@coolwater55 If you cant trust the bible than how can you trust Christ?
The bible is his word
blaq7427 1 month ago
@coolwater55
There is NO contradiction in the Biblical account. The events of chapter 1 and 2 are stated from a different perspective but neither contradicts the other.
inhistime2007 3 months ago
We believe that WOMEN birth babies and GOD created WOMEN and MEN simultaneously to cocreate on earth.
When you see or find evidence that MEN birthed babies back then, come back and post. So, what many who do NOT think for themselves, propose to believe in oral traditional stories from ancient BRONZE age men about how babies are born.
GEN 1 MAKES sense. GEN 2 is a slam against women and our brain/physical evidence sensibilities.
coolwater55 3 months ago
@coolwater55
God did not create women and men simultaneously otherwise there would not have been a sinless Savior. See my blog post to see why it is so important that Adam was created first and Eve was created from his body.
inhistime2007 3 months ago
@inhistime2007
Do women birth babies?
coolwater55 3 months ago
@coolwater55
strivetoenter (dot) com/wim/2006/11/20/adam-as-head-of-the-family/
inhistime2007 3 months ago
This sounds very good and I am sure many who do not study for themselves find this compelling. But there are HUGE problems with your view. The Trinity functions in roles of Authority and submission. The Ontological Trinity speaks of a equally almighty deity who exist in 3 persons yet all are equal in essence. none is greater than the other, yet in the Economic Trinity we see roles. The Father sends the Son, the Son submits to the Fathers will, the Spirit to both.
daboomerang319 4 months ago
Eve's role in the fall.
But regardless, you can't have two people have the same position of authority and expect ANYTHING but chaos.
Now it does say they are to submit one to another. The man submits to the wife by seeking her counsel and considering her opinion in the decision making process and not making decision unilaterally. It doesn't mean he submits to her the same way she submits to him. She can cetainly voice her opinion and state her ideas, but not in a contentious manner.
FenderSchon 8 months ago
cont 2. ..purposes. Neither is better than the other except at the roles they are designed for, so it is for man and woman. What is amazing is how hateful and vitriolic some of the arguments are by some woman. What's even more is they now twist the scriptures to say that EVE didn't sin, LOL she was just deceived, it was only ADAM who sinned. There were many places in the NT for Paul or Peter to set the record straight in placing primary blame on Adam and they don't, but rather reaffirm
FenderSchon 8 months ago
@FenderSchon
Nobody here said that Eve didn't sin. She did sin, but she sinned through deception. Adam sinned willfully and with his eyes wide open. Since he was not deceived he should have protected her with his knowledge. That was his moral obligation.
inhistime2007 8 months ago
@inhistime2007 Actually she sinned just as willfully as Adam did. Adam told her that they weren't allowed to as a command by God, which is what she quoted when talking to the serpent. She just wanted to know what was behind door number 2. She believed the serpent and not her husband or God.
There is a reason satan went after her, he knew there was something in her nature that would make her susceptible to the enticement of being equal to God. She continues to make the same mistake today.
FenderSchon 8 months ago
@FenderSchon
Where do you get the idea that Eve quoted Adam? Eve quoted God directly. God spoke to both of them in Genesis chapter 1 and Eve's testimony is that God said... Adam did not contradict the serpent. Adam was silent. The Bible doesn't say that the woman had something in her nature. The Bible says that she was deceived and it links this to her deception. It is a mistake to add to what the Scripture actually says.
inhistime2007 8 months ago