Of course gay sex is an abomination. My lord have you ever seen what those disgusting glistening muscled homos do to each other Buttocks. Have you ever seen them pounding away at each others greased openings, the sweat dripping off there young tight smooth sinful thighs ! disgusting animals Dping each other in sheer pagan idolatry. There faces twisted in Satan filled delight.Of course it is an Abomination
Being gay is a natural part of a person's life, it's the way God makes some people. Satan inspires so-called "Christians" to condemn and hate various minorities, like gays, blacks, Jews, etc., but what the bigots don't realize is that THEY, themselves, are the abomination. Love, whether it's gay or straight, is a grace and gift from God. Why fight with Him?
God's grace is the fact that he can take even the worst sinner, a murderer, a rapist, a thief, one of the criminals on the side of Jesus hanging on a cross, and he can completely wash them clean of our disgusting, detestable sin. His grace is that he takes us and saves us, but we must REPENT. When we get saved, the Holy Spirit convicts us when we sin and we desire to be clean once again. that is God's grace, that he would save us, sinners, but we must REPENT OF OUR SIN.(homosexuality is sin.)
you seem like a very nice person....but grace is not given to stay in sin...being gay is Sin...we should love the sinner, but hate the sin...adultery, fornication is the same, SIN....
this is just my view but a don't regard being homosexual as a sin i myself am a straight man but have gay friends as well and i think life is too short so i think you should not be discriminated because of your own sexual feeling love is love and any form it if beautiful
not according to Gods standards...love is not love in every sense..God said to hate sin...and God gave the guidelines to what is acceptable and what is not....and its very clear the Bible is against it...we cant take Gods word with prejudice and take what we want out of it and disregard the rest....I didnt make up Gods standards, God did....its not up to me, but its up to me to understand it and obey...
not a robot thatdontimpressmemuc, im just not ignorant like yourself...if you want to imbrace homosexuality, than go ahead, but at your own perial, because there will be hell to pay....just because someone whats to do something does not mean others have to embrace it ignorant one...
How can people sit here and say that they should be removed from the church...are you no better then the heritics in the bible? jesus said do not judge for only the Father can judge. He also said love your neighbor as you love your self. and also said love one another that is his golden rule.
Didnt God turn over tables because of the sinners? God gets mad!! God loves the people that come to the cross and ask for "true" forgivness and repent. People ("gay" christians) that constantly live in sin and refuse to believe what they are doing is wrong...God is NOT happy with them.
And YES! You CAN have Christianity BEFORE Christ came in case you are going to try and be a smart ass about that one testing my knowledge about recognizing the messiah prophecy!
Re: 3:55 Does this reference rule out repentance? It appears that you're arguing that, "everything is covered by grace, and therefore we have licence to sin."
Re: 7:50-8:10 Where are you then on the issue of church discipline? I believe there is a "cookie-cutter" for this in scripture.
It's pretty obvious to me that you're either choosing to ignore my comments, or you forgot to read it. Again, and in simple words, homosexuality is NOT a sin in the Bible. And who is to say who or what is exactly is in God's will, this coming from a person who is divorced (something Jesus clearly spoke against). Anyway, the word "marriage" basically means a union. And a union can be gay or straight. Give me one scripture where Jesus HIMSELF said homosexuality is wrong...
It's right after He said,"I am God, worship me."...
Don't bother to look neither is in there.
Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
I repeat, ancient Greeks worshipped many kinds of gods, and will do anything to hopefully gain the attention of any of the Greco/Roman gods at the time. Even if it means a Heterosexual person would partake of the rituals of mostly sex practices gay or straight with Temple prostitutes. So it talks about the unnatural relationship between heterosexuals and homosexuals worshipping gods with sexual orgies. Not for the mere enjoyment of sex, but for the worship of false gods through sex.
Paul wrote this letter in 1 corinthians to people who (before Christ came) were turning away from thier Christianity and worshipping in pageon temples having sex with male prostitutes and burning with lust for eachother. You can take whatever you want out of context... that doesn't make it right!
That part of the scripture you referring to is missionaries who decided to be single to spread the Good News. Example: Apostle Paul, St. Francis of Asisi, Mother Teresa,et. al. Tell about the part with what Jesus said about Eunuchs who are born that way.
[sigh]...Okay, how far in your educational history have you gone? High school diploma, bachelors, masters, doctorates...? Because I don't if you know, but when talking about asexual, you're dealing with plants, fungi, bacterium, and other asexual organisms. It has nothing to do with humans...you do know that right?
A PhD in what exactly? And as a doctor (because anyone can say they're a doctor in youtube)with your education in the acquire knowledge of asexuality, do you think particular human sexuality is innate then?
Hellllooo! What in the world are you thinking? Of course I'm defending Gay Christians from folks like you going around telling the GLBT community that God hates you. Way to go to avoid the questions I gave you. I'll keep asking you until I see an answer. Do you think asexuality is INNATE? And are you in-line with Biblical scriptures when it comes your divorce status?
I'm just talking to someone who is confused about what the Bible says about homosexuals.
God says that 'some are born eunics'. To me that means it is a given, not to be debated.
Whatever I do or am has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I'm not the one saying that God is 'ok' with practicing homosexual 'Christians'. He's not and the Bible says so pretty clearly.
You're the one telling me that I'm "out of line" with the Bible because of me being a Gay Christian, and yet you're the hypocrite who is DIVORCED, and a blatant liar, because you did say "God hates gays" And what ever the Bible "clearly" says is totally up to the intrepretation of the individual. And I'm glad you finally came to the conclusion that being born Gay is "a given, not to be debated." Or are am I wrong. Am I taking your words out of context?
Are you still there? Are you going to answer my question? Am I taking your words out of context in saying that you do believe homosexuality IS innate, or are you saying that homosexuality is NOT innate...?
Uh, wrong. The Bible does NOT say that homosexuality is a sin. The Bible originally said, in the KJB, that "fornication" is a sin. When the Bible was originally translated by Hebrew & Greek scholars working for King James of England in creating the first published and publicly distributed English authorized Bible in 1610, "fornication" not "homosexuality" was the sin talked about. Fornicating, whether gay or straight, is a sin because it's not within a committed relationship...gay or straight.
There is NO word for "homosexuality" or "homosexual" in Hebrew! The word "homosexual" didn't even come into existance until the late 1700s. Any bible you read with THAT english word is proving self opinion in the interpreter. And back in those days "abomination" meant "unclean" not "sin". The same is said about eating shellfish, pork, and wearing fabrics of more than one material! Should I stone YOU now?
How are you going to talk to me about living under grace when you are attempting to throw a perverted interpretation of the law back in MY face? That is why I mentioned the stones. Such hypocrisy! And YES! I read my bible!
Gotcha. So you do have your interpretations in the Bible. So does this Gay Christians, well then again...I'm not going to participate with my partner in a wedding ceremony. BTW, it's kind of weird reading of a Christian defending a pagan ritual. Oh well, to each his own interpretations. Right? Well, I'm going to hit the sack and get some rest, and I look forward to more of our discussion on your wedding rings.
jusitke is as sick as ya person can get... No way is it ok to be a gay christian. The times of old babylon were perversion, orgies, homosexuality, prostitution, pedophilia and so on was a common thing...GOD DESTROYED IT. Its an abomination. You people are deeply confused. You think your going to tell millions of christian out there that your views are the right ones when this was never accepted by GOD to begin with? Repent or you will be seeing your devil....
No, you're wrong. God destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah as a result of lasciviousness, drunkery, and debauchery in the city whether there were gay, straight, or bisexuals. And guess what, there are such people as Gay Christians...you're talking to one. And I hate to burst your bubble, but we do exist, and we do have our own churches, and there are some denominations that are inclusive instead of exclusive to Gay Christians. God Bless.
How about Romans 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Ah, ah, read carefully that's all it says. So like you agreed with me earlier, there are no SPECIFIC mentions of wedding gowns, wedding rings, the groom, brides-maid, maid of honor, etc. It simply says to get together, that's it, no stress in that, no financial obligations, just get together. Now, do you think your in trouble with the Lord for engaging in this Egyptian Pagan ritual?
Uh, there are other Biblical translations out there that say "get together" instead of your Bible which you typed "and cleave unto..." You should know this...at least I hope you do. Anyway, now that you know, are you willing to throw away you and your partner's wedding rings away due to the fact that is not Biblical? Because to me, you're not following the Bible?
Uh, yes. Now that you have the knowledge of your wedding ring, I think you're not in line with the Bible. So being aware of this paganist ritual, if you're not willing to throw away your wedding rings, wouldn't you say that's an abomination, considering the fact that it's not Biblical at all?
It doesn't necessarily have to say it, you as a Christian should know about false gods and idolotry. Again I ask, with full knowledge of your wedding rings are you willing to throw them away, or are you going to keep them?
If David was a homosexual, was Jesus a homosexual? Judas greeted him with a kiss. They must have been lovers too!
The prodigal son must have had a incestuous relationship with his father..
Luke 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
And in Cor. and Thes. it says,"Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss."
the kiss of Judas was a signal of betrayal, a hint to the Romans of who exactly Jesus is, it may have well could have been on the lips, or it may have been on the cheeks who knows. A kiss could mean a lot of things: friendship, to bless, to honor, etc. However, with David & Jonathan, as you can read from some of the passages of David's poem to Jonathan, that kiss may have been more than a signal of friendship, it was a signal of more than that...
Ah, so you're a Heterosexual Christian. Aren't you proud of that fact? So I'm wondering, do you think you have homosexual tendencies? Or are you absolutely sure of your Heterosexuality?
No. You make it sound like Heterosexuals like you are susceptible into "turning gay" when that is biologically false. You can't turn a straight guy into being gay. A Heterosexual person, is born that way, and ditto for a Homosexual and Bisexual persons. Plus it seems as if you think Gay Christians are set out to destroy mankind. Is that so?
Wrong, I read to justify the truth that innate homosexuality existed in ancient history and in the Bible, as so called "Christian" homophobes claim homosexuality never existed . Well they're wrong, and so are you. It's like me calling your heterosexuality a sin. BTW, what is your sexuality if I may ask?
continued...BTW, besides 2 Sam. 1:26, here some other scripture for you to ponder about 1Sam. 18:1-4, and 1 Sam. 20:41,\...let me know what are your interpretations for these when you get the chance.
David and Jonathan were close friends not lovers. You can read into it that they were, but the New Testament clearly says that homosexuality is a sin.
Wrong they're were lovers. As soon as the boy went away they kissed. And if you're talking about Romans 1, then you're talking about Greek Temple Prostitutes. You're making this a circular discussion and we're going nowhere when you cease to read what I've already mention as far as history goes. But hey, I'll keep repeating to you if you choose to go in a circle...no, you're wrong, homosexuality is not a sin. ;)
continued...I know the truth hurts, but it's there, and yet you will choose to live yourself in denial of that fact. Sad. Anyway, I've given you the passages and you can say whatever it is you want, but the truth of the matter is: We Gay Christians exist.
Good. I'm glad you know we Gay Christian exist. Thank you RetSquid. And no I'll be praying for my future partner for life. I don't think we'll use a wedding ceremony. That's paganistic roots from Egypt. No where in the Bible does it talk about wedding rings, the best man, bride-groom, wedding gown, etc. Anyway, I hope my man will stay with me until death do us part. Anyway, thank you for your acknowledgement.
And this is why I don't bother to bring in the scientific proof. I would be a complete waste of my time, because no matter what I say, you'll always think it's a sin. I'd rather you pay your way to school to get more educational insight into human development and psychology. You should try it some time. Oh, and don't forget history class. But your wrong, Homosexuality is not a sin and yes you're right Jesus is our Lord & Savior. Amen my friend.
Aha Lev. 18:22 right? Well if you're going to follow that you'd better not be a hypocrite and follow ALL of Leviticus. Here some: stone you unruly kids to death (Lev.20:9), don't allow tattooed folks into church (Lev.19:28), don't allow folks who eat pork into church (Lev. 11:7), don't allow folks who eat shrimp in to church (Lev. 11:7), and many more to follow. Oh and don't forget to kick out Gay Christians out of church. Are you willing to follow these rules?
Fornication: "Sexual intercourse between partners who are not married to each other." There, nothing about "homosexuals" which is NOT a sin. Now that I've answered your question, I'm still waiting on your answers to me about my question to you: Is God's grace conditional or unconditional?
Aha Lev. 18:22 right? Well if you're going to follow that you'd better not be a hypocrite and follow ALL of Leviticus. Here some: stone you unruly kids to death (Lev.20:9), don't allow tattooed folks into church (Lev.19:28), don't allow folks who eat pork into church (Lev. 11:7), don't allow folks who eat shrimp in to church (Lev. 11:7), and many more to follow. Oh and don't forget to kick out Gay Christians out of church. Are you willing to follow these rules?
I've already read Romans 1 and I have my interpretations to that. How about you do us Gay Christians a favor and read the next chapter...Romans 2 please. Oh and I'd be glad to read your interpretations to that as well.
Romans 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? 23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
You mean that part? Seems to fit the discusion....
Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:...26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly...
Here's a history lesson, at the time that was written, Paul was talking about Greek temple prostitutes which was the norm at the time. Any ancient Greek document or artwork can prove that. Men and women who offered themselves LUSTFULLY (I may add) as temple prostitutes to a Greek diety. Now it would be a different story if there were no prostitutes and committed themselves to a committed relationship...gay or straight. Now how about your interpretation to Romans 2:1, I should like to read it ;)
You have got to be kidding me...here's a history question for you: Do you know what KOINE-GREEK is? Because if you don't, then obviously you'd be a waste of my time, or anybody who has any history sense in them. Nonetheless, I'll try my best to answer if for you if you don't.
[slapping my head in frustration] I can't believe this...did you not know that the entire New Testament was originally written in Greek? The Greek language was a universal language that was used in the Roman Empire. Universal meaning any Roman citizen can travel and trade to any Roman territory while communicating with the ancient business language at the time: Greek.
BTW, not everything in Hollywood is accurate enough. Mel Gibson got wrong to begin with in his movie "The Passion of the Christ" The Hebrew actors should've spoken Greek to the Roman actors.
Are you kidding me? I've been defending everything that you threw at me with Biblical scriptures and Biblical History. I could throw in science to prove that human sexuality is innate and not a choice, but since you have little knowledge of Biblical history, I'm not sure if I deduce scientific evidence about human sexuality (homosexuality, heterosexuality, and bisexuality) with you...Are you up to it?
Ah, ah, in this discussion, only you think it's a sin, I don't. Again, don't start mixing up innate human sexuality (heterosexuality, homosexuality, and bisexuality) with deviances such as zoophilia, necrophilia, pedophilia, murder, theft, lying. Because then you're talking apples & oranges. Human sexuality is a part of human development.
God as an alien from Saturn!...???...you have quite the interpretations. But anyway, you too can do whatever it is you want in however you interpret the Bible, just as I will. I respect your freedom of religion, and I will carry out my freedom of religion peacefully. If the Seventh Day Adventists, Baptists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Pentecostals, Non-denominationals, Methodists, etc., can carry out their freedom, well so can this proud Gay Christian. God Bless you.
continued...And even though there are many faiths out in the body of Christ, we can at the very least come to a mutual understanding of who our Lord and Savior is: Jesus the Messiah.
And this is why I don't bother to bring in the scientific proof. I would be a complete waste of my time, because no matter what I say, you'll always think it's a sin. I'd rather you pay your way to school to get more educational insight into human development and psychology. You should try it some time. Oh, and don't forget history class. But your wrong, Homosexuality is not a sin and yes you're right Jesus is our Lord & Savior. Amen my friend.
Telling me to stop my innate homosexuality, would the same as me to tell you to stop your innate heterosexuality. When the Bible was originally translated into the English language (1611 King James Bible) it was written as "fornicator" not "homosexual." Plus, I have my interpretations of the Bible, just as you have yours, so please don't impose your ideas on me. I won't allow it. With so many interpretations and denominations out there, who is to say which is righteous over the others? Explain.
Now you want to go way back to where general humanity was at its youngest. Could it be that perhaps along the way, that some of Adam & Eve's offspring may have been born gay or bi? How about 1 & 2 Samual, about the homosexual/bisexual relationship between Jonathan & David? How about that?
2 Samuel 1:26 I am distressed for you, my brother Jonathan; very pleasant have you been to me; your love to me was extraordinary, surpassing the love of women.
It also says :23 "Saul and Jonathan, beloved and lovely! In life and in death they were not divided; they were swifter than eagles; they were stronger than lions."
It is a eulogy, not a statement that they were 'lovers'.
Ah, ah, again that depends on whose interpretation it is. You and some other Christians see this as a eulogy. I and other Christians, especially the Gay Christians, see this as "lovers."
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
I too can quote the letter of the law with the best of them. I care about the spirit of it and the 8% of our population and their allies that we block from the church doors because of the orientation they are born with. It is time for the church to EXERCISE GRACE on the gay community. It is like being forn into an abusive family, the way we treat gay christians... no wonder they go find other families. YOU will be the guilty one in the end, not me. We are judged on how we treat the low.
I fully agree to exercise grace on all sinners, BUT the sinner has to repent(To make a change for the better...}
of the sin. (Romans 6:1)
EXAMPLE: I'm a murderer, it's not my fault that I was born that way, besides, it makes me happy to kill. I know the letter of the law says it's wrong, but it's my orientation, you need to accept me as I am, not try to abuse me if I kill again. No one is being harmed by my actions, all the people I kill tell me they want to die, so everyone is happy.
I myself am a Gay Christian man and just like the Straight Christians, I try my darnest best to avoid temptation and hope to be committed to my future husband. But tell me RetSquid, being a Christian yourself, have you ever told a lie in your life...even a white lie? And tell me what your interpretation of the Grace of the Lord.
Telling me to stop my innate homosexuality, would the same as me to tell you to stop your innate heterosexuality. When the Bible was originally translated into the English language (1611 King James Bible) it was written as "fornicator" not "homosexual." Plus, I have my interpretations of the Bible, just as you have yours, so please don't impose your ideas on me. I won't allow it. With so many interpretations and denominations out there, who is to say which is righteous over the others? Explain.
I'm not 'imposing my ideas" on anyone. If you are a homosexual it is not really my problem. Saying that you can be a Christian and a practicing homosexual is wrong. Maybe your pride in your sin is a problem too?
Fornication: "Sexual intercourse between partners who are not married to each other." There, nothing about "homosexuals" which is NOT a sin. Now that I've answered your question, I'm still waiting on your answers to me about my question to you: Is God's grace conditional or unconditional?
continued...As a proud Gay Christian, I don't go around to tell Seventh Day Adventist to stop worshipping on a Saturday, or other denominations to worship even on a Sunday,or tell Lutherans to stop their infant Baptisms, or the Mennonites to stop their traditions of manual labor, or Pentecostals to stop babbling, or Messianic-Jews to stop using His real Name...or, or, or...you see where I'm going with this RetSquid? Tell me now, is God's grace conditional or unconditional?
Jude 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. 19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
canyonwakr >>> Turning the Grace of God into Laciviousness !
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, TURNING THE GRACE OF OUR GOD INTO LASCIVIOUSNESS, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
I recommend bits274 and a few others stating "it is clearly a sin per the Scriptures" bother 2 study the: historical context vis-a-vis the moral sinkhole once known as Corinth & its TEMPLES, and ALSO the original koine Greek text AS WELL AS the original Hebrew texts. It is VERY easy 2 take the Word out of context in some places, and un 4 2 nately this is precisely 1 of the issues where that can occur (quite similar 2 previous claims that BOTH the OT and NT clearly *condoned* slavery. NO WAY).
i cannot see Jesus condoning homosexuality for it is a sin in the scriptures.
However a Christian must not judge others or condemn others,but i cannot accept that homosexuality is ok.if someone is gay he must sacrifice his sexuality for God.
God is looking for people who will make sacrifices , not the smartest or coolest etc.
GRACE, (IPA stuff), noun. 1. UNmerited favor. This blows our minds and is a concept that ALL of us struggle with somewhat (regardless of your gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, planetary origin, (ha ha ha), etc.!) ONLY the Holy Spirit can really help us 2 get past THIS hurdle, and it has NOTHING 2 do with the "gay Christian" supposedly not existing in SOME people's minds. Grace is just a REALLY difficult concept (if not an outright IMPOSSIBLE one) 2 wrap one's head around! It's tough!!
THANK YOU Sid....it is always nice to hear a good report. i honestly get "cast into hell' several times a week by my fundamentalist siblings. Isn't that CRAZY??!! I think the essence of God is PROFOUND care, love and concern. No matter what our differnces. If we are not doing that, perhaps we are no following Him. I thought people were supposed to know us by our love. Boy, do some people fall way short. GOd must go "ugh!" all day long, K
I don't validate my beliefs with feelings. I read , I study, I go to conferences, I do relationship and I listen to God. I think He is not good with how His children treat their siblings. THe opposite of grace is rules. Think about that for a minute. THink of the rules God could slam on on today. Think about what I suggest I the video. If we come from OTHER than grace, we are in a personal deficit. Look at people with the eyes of Jesus, let Him do the work and DRAW people to Him. Maybe?
A bit snide...and I will answer. My Bible is WELL read and studied and the crux of this is : Is homosexuality a sin? Are you open to original language and context? Where ever the word is translated, it orginally meant male, temple,cultic prostitute. I hope you would agree the translation is a poor one. And with it, many have taken about 5 to 8% of the population and deemed them unfit till they clean up their act if you then would indeed translate the world inaccurately to homosexual. cont'd
And if you cannot translate the word and get stuck on homosexual WHY WHY WHY would we not INVITE the gay community INTO church to get the opportunity you an I did??? If I had to be what I am today, 25 years aftere becoming a Christian, no one would have nor should they have allowed me into a church. We are people that should be know as the body of Jesus who serve and promote social justice and love. We are no longer the hands and the feet and the heart..we've become the mouth. cont'd
"Look at people with the eyes of Jesus, let Him do the work and DRAW people to Him. Maybe?"
For the record, I couldnt agree with this more. Jesus doesn't command us to come to the cross perfect. He doesnt say you must do "this-this-and this" to come to me. He calls us to come to Him broken, and He will make us new again. I applaud this ministry for accepting and drawing in the gay community that has been turned away by mainstream churches.
"That may be true but that doesnt take away from the fact that an STD is the only physical outcome that can ever come from that kind of act." excuse me? Straight people suffer from STDs just as much as gay people. Any many straights practise sodomy, and many, many gays dont. Being gay is NOT defined by a sexual act. You can be a gay virgin, a gay celibate, a gay companion, its about orientation not bedroom acts.
"Same sex attraction is from the devil" ? what is this based on please?
"Same sex attraction is a temptation that blinds someone into desiring the unatural"
no, same sex attraction is an innate state of being either present at birth or adopted very early on, in childhood, with no consciousness of choice. I know, im a gay man.
It's based on Scripture and what the Bible says about homosexuality. Romans 1 is probably the clearest chapter on homosexuality, but there are other references as well. And just looking at how God instituted marriage as being between a man and woman, as well as the absense of any notion that God agrees or condones same sex attractions in scripture; I feel that there is no gray area when it comes to this matter in Scripture. If you disagree, then you have to prove yourself.
The reason I say this is because if same sex attraction is not from God, then where is it from? It's a byproduct of our fallen state, our sin nature. Satan tempts everyone differently. Some he tempts with lust, others with greed, still others with anger. And some he tempts with same sex attractions. To finish off, I really dont mean to sound naive when I say this, but just look at the basic structure of the bodies of a man and a woman. We werent created to be gay.
It's not that we're tempted with same sex attractions... it's that we're attracted to men like straight men is attracted to women. Gay men as young as 6, having had loving straight parents and never having been molested, have had attractions to people of the same gender.
Furthermore... the parts fit, just believe me. I could explain why, but it's not appropriate here anymore than talking about how straight sex works.
Actually, a clearer look at Romans in the original languages shows that the condemnations are NOT clear.
Furthermore, God doesn't agree or condone using the computer, watching TV, eating spaghetti, but these things are okay. Arguing from silence isn't an option.
Yeah, I noticed how everyone seems to have been able to "explain away" every verse in the Bible that speaks against homosexuality. Excuse the satire here but this is all I hear when people try to explain them away: "Oh, they really didn't mean what it plainly says in the text, they obvioulsy meant something else." And you can try to rationalize it in your own mind, but it doesnt change what's written in Scripture.
As for the parts fitting thing, I think we can both agree that's a longshot answer. The male and female body were made for those parts to fit. The other way you described is just coincidental as no reproduction, or anything useful comes from it. On the contrary the only thing that does come from it is STDs.
And although God didnt condone TV or spaghetti, he also never condemned them anywhere (like done with homosexuality).
I can see how homosexuality can be natural and I can see how it can be a temptation. I believe that the Biblical evidence and common sense clearly indicate that same sex attraction (SSA) is a temptation, thus acting on your SSA is a sin. What I'm wondering is if there is any doubt in your mind whether SSA is possibly a temptation or are you 100% confident in your mind that its natural. My follow-up question then is how can you be so sure with all the evidence on the other side?
"Yeah, I noticed how everyone seems to have been able to "explain away" every verse in the Bible that speaks against homosexuality."
Biblical scholars who have studied the Bible FAR MORE than 90% of Christians (even so far as studying the original language) have arrived to various conclusions. The English Bible, even the King James version, is a translation of a translation. There's inaccuracies in the translation, not to mention subconscious bias by the translators.
How can you say this? If the translators were able to allow some homosexuality conspiracy theory to get into the Bible, how can you trust anything written in the Bible?
If you choose to believe that parts of the Bible is inaccurate, errant, or false; then you have to believe that the entire book is. Picking and choosing is simply irational.
You know very little of my theology. People around me see me a devote, passionate Christian. I can go verse for verse with the best. But who cares? I think it is more important to look at people rather than issues. Read the link I sent you and consider, is this a hill you would choose for others to die on? Not me. My doctrine is extremely sound on salvation. I live the life , not just know the words. And my goodness, to have a conversation on faith and works...that was twenty years ago.
I think it takes a GREAT deal of spititual maturity to get to a place where you can let other people be who they are and just love them. Either that or having experienced so much grace that you can do it.
You MUST read th Bible in CONTEXT to get it and STILL
remain loving to others. Could you imagine if someone told you MUST change your orientation to love men rather than women to come into church? AND homosexuality is NOT a choice. If you are stuck there,that would be your first step of learning. You can not possibly have seen what I have, know the amount of gay Christians I do,studied the SPECIFIC scriptures I have in original language as well as years of Bible study in general to have a fuller vision on this topic. We will not change the other.
I will continue doing what I am doing in hopes to reach out to people that others push away so hard. God put the compassion in me, I did not create it. I try to point detracters to other possiblitities or back to grace: beyond that, I walk away and use my efforts where I know they work. I write for a secular gay magazine monthly and open lots of door with that. Have your methods worked within the confines of the commission? I would think not. We now agree to disagree.I tried walk away....
"Could you imagine if someone told you MUST change your orientation to love men rather than women to come into church" probably THE main issue with this is,"is homosexuality a sin" now lets say for one sec that it was...wouldn't the church have the responsibility to see that people step away from their sin? we can't talk about a messed up church because with what the church believes right now, they are doing exactly what they should be.we just need to get at the truth whether its a sin or not
"homosexuality is NOT a choice" I don't think this statement is proven as much as "homosexuality is only a choice" is...woudln't that only work if scientists found the "gay gene"?...so that perspective doesn't work for me...I would be curious to know what is your view on Christians who were gay and accepted it as sin and have "become" heterosexual...I know at least one man who is married and has children now...
What a wonderful video and message. It is nice to see christians out there who are like you.
annpetasupporter 1 year ago
Somewhat ironic since Christ said nothing about homosexuality being a sin.
clay56 1 year ago
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Of course gay sex is an abomination. My lord have you ever seen what those disgusting glistening muscled homos do to each other Buttocks. Have you ever seen them pounding away at each others greased openings, the sweat dripping off there young tight smooth sinful thighs ! disgusting animals Dping each other in sheer pagan idolatry. There faces twisted in Satan filled delight.Of course it is an Abomination
rich107s 2 years ago
Being gay is a natural part of a person's life, it's the way God makes some people. Satan inspires so-called "Christians" to condemn and hate various minorities, like gays, blacks, Jews, etc., but what the bigots don't realize is that THEY, themselves, are the abomination. Love, whether it's gay or straight, is a grace and gift from God. Why fight with Him?
MattFrame 1 year ago
God's grace is the fact that he can take even the worst sinner, a murderer, a rapist, a thief, one of the criminals on the side of Jesus hanging on a cross, and he can completely wash them clean of our disgusting, detestable sin. His grace is that he takes us and saves us, but we must REPENT. When we get saved, the Holy Spirit convicts us when we sin and we desire to be clean once again. that is God's grace, that he would save us, sinners, but we must REPENT OF OUR SIN.(homosexuality is sin.)
Wademedic63 2 years ago
well said
loudmouthspeaker 2 years ago
you seem like a very nice person....but grace is not given to stay in sin...being gay is Sin...we should love the sinner, but hate the sin...adultery, fornication is the same, SIN....
wordwarrior42 2 years ago 2
this is just my view but a don't regard being homosexual as a sin i myself am a straight man but have gay friends as well and i think life is too short so i think you should not be discriminated because of your own sexual feeling love is love and any form it if beautiful
promboy8 2 years ago
not according to Gods standards...love is not love in every sense..God said to hate sin...and God gave the guidelines to what is acceptable and what is not....and its very clear the Bible is against it...we cant take Gods word with prejudice and take what we want out of it and disregard the rest....I didnt make up Gods standards, God did....its not up to me, but its up to me to understand it and obey...
wordwarrior42 2 years ago
you're a good little robot aren't you?
thatdontimpressmemuc 2 years ago
not a robot thatdontimpressmemuc, im just not ignorant like yourself...if you want to imbrace homosexuality, than go ahead, but at your own perial, because there will be hell to pay....just because someone whats to do something does not mean others have to embrace it ignorant one...
wordwarrior42 2 years ago
How can people sit here and say that they should be removed from the church...are you no better then the heritics in the bible? jesus said do not judge for only the Father can judge. He also said love your neighbor as you love your self. and also said love one another that is his golden rule.
cedarpoint09 2 years ago
Didnt God turn over tables because of the sinners? God gets mad!! God loves the people that come to the cross and ask for "true" forgivness and repent. People ("gay" christians) that constantly live in sin and refuse to believe what they are doing is wrong...God is NOT happy with them.
PeeFinster 2 years ago
how does being gay = living in sin?
standardwolfsburg 2 years ago
It doesn't :)
If people actually researched their Bibles, they would know this.
JonnySerge 2 years ago
God didnt make people homosexual.
The church shouldnt yoke with unrepentant sinners...they should be removed from the church!!!!
PeeFinster 2 years ago
And YES! You CAN have Christianity BEFORE Christ came in case you are going to try and be a smart ass about that one testing my knowledge about recognizing the messiah prophecy!
free2bfierce 3 years ago
Its all about Christ and us coming to the cross asking for forgivness and believing in him that we may have everlasting life.
PeeFinster 2 years ago 2
Re: 3:55 Does this reference rule out repentance? It appears that you're arguing that, "everything is covered by grace, and therefore we have licence to sin."
Re: 7:50-8:10 Where are you then on the issue of church discipline? I believe there is a "cookie-cutter" for this in scripture.
Oophorectomy 3 years ago
It's pretty obvious to me that you're either choosing to ignore my comments, or you forgot to read it. Again, and in simple words, homosexuality is NOT a sin in the Bible. And who is to say who or what is exactly is in God's will, this coming from a person who is divorced (something Jesus clearly spoke against). Anyway, the word "marriage" basically means a union. And a union can be gay or straight. Give me one scripture where Jesus HIMSELF said homosexuality is wrong...
jusitke07 3 years ago
It's right after He said,"I am God, worship me."...
Don't bother to look neither is in there.
Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Show me how you re-translate that....
RetSquid 3 years ago
I repeat, ancient Greeks worshipped many kinds of gods, and will do anything to hopefully gain the attention of any of the Greco/Roman gods at the time. Even if it means a Heterosexual person would partake of the rituals of mostly sex practices gay or straight with Temple prostitutes. So it talks about the unnatural relationship between heterosexuals and homosexuals worshipping gods with sexual orgies. Not for the mere enjoyment of sex, but for the worship of false gods through sex.
jusitke07 3 years ago
continued...so there you have it. This is not an interpretation. This is historical fact of which Paul witnessed.
jusitke07 3 years ago
RetSquid, are you serious? BURNING with lust is wrong no matter WHAT the orientation, GAY or STRAIGHT!! Have you even READ the bible?
free2bfierce 3 years ago
"Have you even READ the bible?"
Obviously you haven't.
"men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. "
RetSquid 3 years ago
Paul wrote this letter in 1 corinthians to people who (before Christ came) were turning away from thier Christianity and worshipping in pageon temples having sex with male prostitutes and burning with lust for eachother. You can take whatever you want out of context... that doesn't make it right!
free2bfierce 3 years ago 2
Amen! That verse is DEFINITELY about shrine prostitution. The truth of the gospel must be told :)
JonnySerge 2 years ago
I think you mean Matt. 19:12, read it carefully and tell me what you think. Oh, and are you still wearing your wedding ring?
jusitke07 3 years ago
"and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake"
This is a call to be celebate if you are not married.
I don't wear a wedding ring because I am not married.
RetSquid 3 years ago
That part of the scripture you referring to is missionaries who decided to be single to spread the Good News. Example: Apostle Paul, St. Francis of Asisi, Mother Teresa,et. al. Tell about the part with what Jesus said about Eunuchs who are born that way.
jusitke07 3 years ago
"Tell about the part with what Jesus said about Eunuchs who are born that way."
Maybe they were born asexual, I don't know.
RetSquid 3 years ago
[sigh]...Okay, how far in your educational history have you gone? High school diploma, bachelors, masters, doctorates...? Because I don't if you know, but when talking about asexual, you're dealing with plants, fungi, bacterium, and other asexual organisms. It has nothing to do with humans...you do know that right?
jusitke07 3 years ago
asexual, in this case means to me without any interest in sex.
I've had a PHD for many years.
Post Hole Digger :)
RetSquid 3 years ago
A PhD in what exactly? And as a doctor (because anyone can say they're a doctor in youtube)with your education in the acquire knowledge of asexuality, do you think particular human sexuality is innate then?
jusitke07 3 years ago
I've had a PHD = Post Hole Digger :)
RetSquid 3 years ago
continued...and don't forget to answer the question on whether or not you're in line with the Bible when it comes to divorce....sine you're divorced.
jusitke07 3 years ago
Are you defending 'Christian' homosexuals or just avoiding the truth?
RetSquid 3 years ago
Hellllooo! What in the world are you thinking? Of course I'm defending Gay Christians from folks like you going around telling the GLBT community that God hates you. Way to go to avoid the questions I gave you. I'll keep asking you until I see an answer. Do you think asexuality is INNATE? And are you in-line with Biblical scriptures when it comes your divorce status?
jusitke07 3 years ago
I don't go around saying 'God hates gays'.
I'm just talking to someone who is confused about what the Bible says about homosexuals.
God says that 'some are born eunics'. To me that means it is a given, not to be debated.
Whatever I do or am has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I'm not the one saying that God is 'ok' with practicing homosexual 'Christians'. He's not and the Bible says so pretty clearly.
RetSquid 3 years ago
You're the one telling me that I'm "out of line" with the Bible because of me being a Gay Christian, and yet you're the hypocrite who is DIVORCED, and a blatant liar, because you did say "God hates gays" And what ever the Bible "clearly" says is totally up to the intrepretation of the individual. And I'm glad you finally came to the conclusion that being born Gay is "a given, not to be debated." Or are am I wrong. Am I taking your words out of context?
jusitke07 3 years ago
Are you still there? Are you going to answer my question? Am I taking your words out of context in saying that you do believe homosexuality IS innate, or are you saying that homosexuality is NOT innate...?
jusitke07 3 years ago
I don't have all the answers, but the Bible says that homosexuality is an abomination. NOT just because of some pagans practiced it.
Again the debate is about homosexual 'christians' and the Bible.
RetSquid 3 years ago
Uh, wrong. The Bible does NOT say that homosexuality is a sin. The Bible originally said, in the KJB, that "fornication" is a sin. When the Bible was originally translated by Hebrew & Greek scholars working for King James of England in creating the first published and publicly distributed English authorized Bible in 1610, "fornication" not "homosexuality" was the sin talked about. Fornicating, whether gay or straight, is a sin because it's not within a committed relationship...gay or straight.
jusitke07 3 years ago
And marriage is defined as a man and a woman, so either way you can't practice homosexuality and be within God's will.
RetSquid 3 years ago
There is NO word for "homosexuality" or "homosexual" in Hebrew! The word "homosexual" didn't even come into existance until the late 1700s. Any bible you read with THAT english word is proving self opinion in the interpreter. And back in those days "abomination" meant "unclean" not "sin". The same is said about eating shellfish, pork, and wearing fabrics of more than one material! Should I stone YOU now?
free2bfierce 3 years ago
"The same is said about eating shellfish, pork, and wearing fabrics of more than one material! Should I stone YOU now?"
Do you know the difference between living under the Law and living in Grace?
RetSquid 3 years ago
How are you going to talk to me about living under grace when you are attempting to throw a perverted interpretation of the law back in MY face? That is why I mentioned the stones. Such hypocrisy! And YES! I read my bible!
free2bfierce 3 years ago
There is also no word for 'Trinity' or 'theology' should we ignore those ideas also?
RetSquid 3 years ago
continued...So wait a minute...then you're divorced? Right?
jusitke07 3 years ago
Yes.
RetSquid 3 years ago
So...talking about being in line with the Bible, do you really think you're in line with the Bible?
jusitke07 3 years ago
Gotcha. So you do have your interpretations in the Bible. So does this Gay Christians, well then again...I'm not going to participate with my partner in a wedding ceremony. BTW, it's kind of weird reading of a Christian defending a pagan ritual. Oh well, to each his own interpretations. Right? Well, I'm going to hit the sack and get some rest, and I look forward to more of our discussion on your wedding rings.
jusitke07 3 years ago
I have been reading this garbage.
jusitke is as sick as ya person can get... No way is it ok to be a gay christian. The times of old babylon were perversion, orgies, homosexuality, prostitution, pedophilia and so on was a common thing...GOD DESTROYED IT. Its an abomination. You people are deeply confused. You think your going to tell millions of christian out there that your views are the right ones when this was never accepted by GOD to begin with? Repent or you will be seeing your devil....
candm34 3 years ago
No, you're wrong. God destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah as a result of lasciviousness, drunkery, and debauchery in the city whether there were gay, straight, or bisexuals. And guess what, there are such people as Gay Christians...you're talking to one. And I hate to burst your bubble, but we do exist, and we do have our own churches, and there are some denominations that are inclusive instead of exclusive to Gay Christians. God Bless.
jusitke07 3 years ago
tell me about your interpretations of Matt. 19:12...especially about the eunuchs that are born that way...
jusitke07 3 years ago
Matt. 12:12 has no eunuchs...
How about Romans 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
RetSquid 3 years ago
Yep, In my interpretations it pertains to those who live in sexual hedonism. Not in a committed Gay or Straight relationship.
jusitke07 3 years ago
But wait a minute, I'm sure you have a Biblical interpretation to back your wedding ceremony. Right?
jusitke07 3 years ago
In a way yes,
Genesis 2:24
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
RetSquid 3 years ago
Ah, ah, read carefully that's all it says. So like you agreed with me earlier, there are no SPECIFIC mentions of wedding gowns, wedding rings, the groom, brides-maid, maid of honor, etc. It simply says to get together, that's it, no stress in that, no financial obligations, just get together. Now, do you think your in trouble with the Lord for engaging in this Egyptian Pagan ritual?
jusitke07 3 years ago
There is a groom (also known as the bride-groom) and the bride.
"Egyptian Pagan ritual"
IF the ritual still kept it's original pagan meaning then yes...maybe. IF I intended it to worship some pagan god.
Where do you get this 'just get together' stuff?
RetSquid 3 years ago
Uh, there are other Biblical translations out there that say "get together" instead of your Bible which you typed "and cleave unto..." You should know this...at least I hope you do. Anyway, now that you know, are you willing to throw away you and your partner's wedding rings away due to the fact that is not Biblical? Because to me, you're not following the Bible?
jusitke07 3 years ago
Are you trying to say that since it is NOT in the Bible it is bad?
How about if the Bible says that something IS bad...or an 'abomination'.
RetSquid 3 years ago
Uh, yes. Now that you have the knowledge of your wedding ring, I think you're not in line with the Bible. So being aware of this paganist ritual, if you're not willing to throw away your wedding rings, wouldn't you say that's an abomination, considering the fact that it's not Biblical at all?
jusitke07 3 years ago
Sure, if you can show me where the Bible calls it an abomination.
RetSquid 3 years ago
It doesn't necessarily have to say it, you as a Christian should know about false gods and idolotry. Again I ask, with full knowledge of your wedding rings are you willing to throw them away, or are you going to keep them?
jusitke07 3 years ago
Can you show me where a wedding ceremony is idolotry or a 'false god'?
RetSquid 3 years ago
Wait a second. You said in an earlier comment, and I quote:
"wedding rings-not in Bible
the best man-not in Bible
wedding gown-not in Bible
bride-groom-DEFINITELY IN BIBLE"
Now you're taking it back?
jusitke07 3 years ago
"Not in the Bible" is not the same as 'denounced as an sin and an abomination in the Bible'.
Airplanes weren't in the Bible either, are they a sin?
RetSquid 3 years ago
Where are you? Shall we continue on whether or not if you're in line with the Bible...
jusitke07 3 years ago
I'm still here.
If David was a homosexual, was Jesus a homosexual? Judas greeted him with a kiss. They must have been lovers too!
The prodigal son must have had a incestuous relationship with his father..
Luke 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
And in Cor. and Thes. it says,"Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss."
Should we all be 'gay'?
RetSquid 3 years ago
the kiss of Judas was a signal of betrayal, a hint to the Romans of who exactly Jesus is, it may have well could have been on the lips, or it may have been on the cheeks who knows. A kiss could mean a lot of things: friendship, to bless, to honor, etc. However, with David & Jonathan, as you can read from some of the passages of David's poem to Jonathan, that kiss may have been more than a signal of friendship, it was a signal of more than that...
jusitke07 3 years ago
"that kiss may have been more than a signal of friendship"
So, now it 'may' been more?
RetSquid 3 years ago
"innate homosexuality"
True, Man has a sinful nature.
"homosexuality never existed"
Never claimed that, it obviously did, the Bible says it's a sin.
"calling your heterosexuality a sin."
Except THAT is what the Bible says is NOT a sin.
"what is your sexuality"
Hetero.
RetSquid 3 years ago
Ah, so you're a Heterosexual Christian. Aren't you proud of that fact? So I'm wondering, do you think you have homosexual tendencies? Or are you absolutely sure of your Heterosexuality?
jusitke07 3 years ago
LOL!
Why is it that one of the first questions from someone like you is, "are you sure you're not a homosexual?"
Are you trying to hit on me?
"Ah, so you're a Heterosexual Christian"
Just "Christian" will suffice.
RetSquid 3 years ago
No. You make it sound like Heterosexuals like you are susceptible into "turning gay" when that is biologically false. You can't turn a straight guy into being gay. A Heterosexual person, is born that way, and ditto for a Homosexual and Bisexual persons. Plus it seems as if you think Gay Christians are set out to destroy mankind. Is that so?
jusitke07 3 years ago
"turning gay"
No.
"Plus it seems as if you think Gay Christians are set out to destroy mankind. Is that so?"
No, but as I said earlier you can be a Christian and a practiceing homosexual.
RetSquid 3 years ago
Wrong, I read to justify the truth that innate homosexuality existed in ancient history and in the Bible, as so called "Christian" homophobes claim homosexuality never existed . Well they're wrong, and so are you. It's like me calling your heterosexuality a sin. BTW, what is your sexuality if I may ask?
jusitke07 3 years ago
continued...BTW, besides 2 Sam. 1:26, here some other scripture for you to ponder about 1Sam. 18:1-4, and 1 Sam. 20:41,\...let me know what are your interpretations for these when you get the chance.
jusitke07 3 years ago
David and Jonathan were close friends not lovers. You can read into it that they were, but the New Testament clearly says that homosexuality is a sin.
RetSquid 3 years ago
Wrong they're were lovers. As soon as the boy went away they kissed. And if you're talking about Romans 1, then you're talking about Greek Temple Prostitutes. You're making this a circular discussion and we're going nowhere when you cease to read what I've already mention as far as history goes. But hey, I'll keep repeating to you if you choose to go in a circle...no, you're wrong, homosexuality is not a sin. ;)
jusitke07 3 years ago
Wrong, but you will translate it anyway you like to justify your sin.
RetSquid 3 years ago
continued...I know the truth hurts, but it's there, and yet you will choose to live yourself in denial of that fact. Sad. Anyway, I've given you the passages and you can say whatever it is you want, but the truth of the matter is: We Gay Christians exist.
jusitke07 3 years ago
"We Gay Christians exist."
I know you do, if you were celebate, THEN you would be in line with what the Bible commands.
RetSquid 3 years ago
Good. I'm glad you know we Gay Christian exist. Thank you RetSquid. And no I'll be praying for my future partner for life. I don't think we'll use a wedding ceremony. That's paganistic roots from Egypt. No where in the Bible does it talk about wedding rings, the best man, bride-groom, wedding gown, etc. Anyway, I hope my man will stay with me until death do us part. Anyway, thank you for your acknowledgement.
jusitke07 3 years ago
"paganistic roots"
wedding rings-not in Bible
the best man-not in Bible
wedding gown-not in Bible
bride-groom-DEFINITELY IN BIBLE
Jesus is the Bride Groom, The Church is the Bride.
RetSquid 3 years ago
Good I'm glad you agree with me. Did you get married in a wedding ceremony such as this? I know a lot of Christians did. How about you?
jusitke07 3 years ago
A marriage ceremony? yes.
RetSquid 3 years ago
...do I dare say you've just engaged in a Egyptian Pagan ritual or do you have any scripture to back that up?
jusitke07 3 years ago
Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
The actual ceremony? No.
Did I unwittingly worship a different god or something?
RetSquid 3 years ago
Ah, ah, can you deduce this to a fact that marriage in this passage is a close intimate relationship, or a full fledge wedding ceremony?
jusitke07 3 years ago
And this is why I don't bother to bring in the scientific proof. I would be a complete waste of my time, because no matter what I say, you'll always think it's a sin. I'd rather you pay your way to school to get more educational insight into human development and psychology. You should try it some time. Oh, and don't forget history class. But your wrong, Homosexuality is not a sin and yes you're right Jesus is our Lord & Savior. Amen my friend.
jusitke07 3 years ago
Actually I'm a full time student majoring in History.
If it's natural for humans does that mean it is not a sin?
RetSquid 3 years ago
Ah, Ah, according to your interpretation...not mine
jusitke07 3 years ago
Aha Lev. 18:22 right? Well if you're going to follow that you'd better not be a hypocrite and follow ALL of Leviticus. Here some: stone you unruly kids to death (Lev.20:9), don't allow tattooed folks into church (Lev.19:28), don't allow folks who eat pork into church (Lev. 11:7), don't allow folks who eat shrimp in to church (Lev. 11:7), and many more to follow. Oh and don't forget to kick out Gay Christians out of church. Are you willing to follow these rules?
jusitke07 3 years ago
Fornication: "Sexual intercourse between partners who are not married to each other." There, nothing about "homosexuals" which is NOT a sin. Now that I've answered your question, I'm still waiting on your answers to me about my question to you: Is God's grace conditional or unconditional?
jusitke07 3 years ago
So fornication is a sin right?
Are you married?
God's grace unconditional.
Homosexuality isn't just a sin, it's an "Abomination".
Read Romans
RetSquid 3 years ago
Aha Lev. 18:22 right? Well if you're going to follow that you'd better not be a hypocrite and follow ALL of Leviticus. Here some: stone you unruly kids to death (Lev.20:9), don't allow tattooed folks into church (Lev.19:28), don't allow folks who eat pork into church (Lev. 11:7), don't allow folks who eat shrimp in to church (Lev. 11:7), and many more to follow. Oh and don't forget to kick out Gay Christians out of church. Are you willing to follow these rules?
jusitke07 3 years ago
I've already read Romans 1 and I have my interpretations to that. How about you do us Gay Christians a favor and read the next chapter...Romans 2 please. Oh and I'd be glad to read your interpretations to that as well.
jusitke07 3 years ago
Romans 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? 23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
You mean that part? Seems to fit the discusion....
RetSquid 3 years ago
Ah, you've only cherry-picked one part of Romans 2 as if to say it only directly applies to me, and NEVER to you...right?
jusitke07 3 years ago
I'm not the one asserting tht a clear sin in the Bible is a 'lifestyle choice'.
You can be a (EX-)homosexual and a Christian, BUT you can't be a practicing homosexual and be a Christian.
RetSquid 3 years ago
Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:...26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly...
How do you interpret that?
RetSquid 3 years ago
Here's a history lesson, at the time that was written, Paul was talking about Greek temple prostitutes which was the norm at the time. Any ancient Greek document or artwork can prove that. Men and women who offered themselves LUSTFULLY (I may add) as temple prostitutes to a Greek diety. Now it would be a different story if there were no prostitutes and committed themselves to a committed relationship...gay or straight. Now how about your interpretation to Romans 2:1, I should like to read it ;)
jusitke07 3 years ago
Why would Paul write a letter to Rome to talk about practices in Greek temples? Wouldn't he have written to the Greek Churches about that instead?
RetSquid 3 years ago
You have got to be kidding me...here's a history question for you: Do you know what KOINE-GREEK is? Because if you don't, then obviously you'd be a waste of my time, or anybody who has any history sense in them. Nonetheless, I'll try my best to answer if for you if you don't.
jusitke07 3 years ago
So, Paul wrote a letter in Greek to the Church of Rome. What is your point? It's still a letter to Rome NOT to the Greeks.
RetSquid 3 years ago
[slapping my head in frustration] I can't believe this...did you not know that the entire New Testament was originally written in Greek? The Greek language was a universal language that was used in the Roman Empire. Universal meaning any Roman citizen can travel and trade to any Roman territory while communicating with the ancient business language at the time: Greek.
jusitke07 3 years ago
BTW, not everything in Hollywood is accurate enough. Mel Gibson got wrong to begin with in his movie "The Passion of the Christ" The Hebrew actors should've spoken Greek to the Roman actors.
jusitke07 3 years ago
True, Jesus most likely spoke Aramaic, Greek, and Hebrew.
RetSquid 3 years ago
Paul wrote a letter to Rome using the Greek language spoken at the time.
Your assestion is that the Greek temple prostitutes are really Roman temple prositutes?
Besides language what to Greek temple prostitues have to do with the Church in Rome?
RetSquid 3 years ago
You seriously think there was absolutely no Greeks or even Greek influence in Rome?
jusitke07 3 years ago
There most likely was, but why write to the Church in Rome to talk about temple prostututes in Greece?
Remember, this is your theory, you need to defend it logically.
RetSquid 3 years ago
Are you kidding me? I've been defending everything that you threw at me with Biblical scriptures and Biblical History. I could throw in science to prove that human sexuality is innate and not a choice, but since you have little knowledge of Biblical history, I'm not sure if I deduce scientific evidence about human sexuality (homosexuality, heterosexuality, and bisexuality) with you...Are you up to it?
jusitke07 3 years ago
"could throw in science"
Sure, but that has nothing to do with it being a sin or not.
RetSquid 3 years ago
Ah, ah, in this discussion, only you think it's a sin, I don't. Again, don't start mixing up innate human sexuality (heterosexuality, homosexuality, and bisexuality) with deviances such as zoophilia, necrophilia, pedophilia, murder, theft, lying. Because then you're talking apples & oranges. Human sexuality is a part of human development.
jusitke07 3 years ago
"only you think it's a sin, I don't"
The Bible says it is a sin, case closed.
RetSquid 3 years ago
Ah, Ah, according to your interpretation...not mine.
jusitke07 3 years ago
You may interpret the Bible as saying that God is actually an alien from Saturn.
I'm resting on thousands of years of traditions and Faith that God's Word is God's Word.
RetSquid 3 years ago
God as an alien from Saturn!...???...you have quite the interpretations. But anyway, you too can do whatever it is you want in however you interpret the Bible, just as I will. I respect your freedom of religion, and I will carry out my freedom of religion peacefully. If the Seventh Day Adventists, Baptists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Pentecostals, Non-denominationals, Methodists, etc., can carry out their freedom, well so can this proud Gay Christian. God Bless you.
jusitke07 3 years ago
continued...And even though there are many faiths out in the body of Christ, we can at the very least come to a mutual understanding of who our Lord and Savior is: Jesus the Messiah.
jusitke07 3 years ago
"our Lord and Savior is: Jesus the Messiah."
Finally; Truth.
Homosexuality is still a sin, so you are bring pain into the Church (Body of Christian believers).
RetSquid 3 years ago
And this is why I don't bother to bring in the scientific proof. I would be a complete waste of my time, because no matter what I say, you'll always think it's a sin. I'd rather you pay your way to school to get more educational insight into human development and psychology. You should try it some time. Oh, and don't forget history class. But your wrong, Homosexuality is not a sin and yes you're right Jesus is our Lord & Savior. Amen my friend.
jusitke07 3 years ago
Here's another history quiz for ya: Do you know anything...anything at all...or at least something, about Greco-Roman mythology/dieties?
jusitke07 3 years ago
Telling me to stop my innate homosexuality, would the same as me to tell you to stop your innate heterosexuality. When the Bible was originally translated into the English language (1611 King James Bible) it was written as "fornicator" not "homosexual." Plus, I have my interpretations of the Bible, just as you have yours, so please don't impose your ideas on me. I won't allow it. With so many interpretations and denominations out there, who is to say which is righteous over the others? Explain.
jusitke07 3 years ago
Genesis 2:24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
Mariage = one man and one woman. Not two men, not two women.
Yes, there were people in the Bible that had more than one, but that was not the way it was supposed to be.
RetSquid 3 years ago
Now you want to go way back to where general humanity was at its youngest. Could it be that perhaps along the way, that some of Adam & Eve's offspring may have been born gay or bi? How about 1 & 2 Samual, about the homosexual/bisexual relationship between Jonathan & David? How about that?
jusitke07 3 years ago
2 Samuel 1:26 I am distressed for you, my brother Jonathan; very pleasant have you been to me; your love to me was extraordinary, surpassing the love of women.
It also says :23 "Saul and Jonathan, beloved and lovely! In life and in death they were not divided; they were swifter than eagles; they were stronger than lions."
It is a eulogy, not a statement that they were 'lovers'.
RetSquid 3 years ago
Ah, ah, again that depends on whose interpretation it is. You and some other Christians see this as a eulogy. I and other Christians, especially the Gay Christians, see this as "lovers."
jusitke07 3 years ago
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
RetSquid 3 years ago
I too can quote the letter of the law with the best of them. I care about the spirit of it and the 8% of our population and their allies that we block from the church doors because of the orientation they are born with. It is time for the church to EXERCISE GRACE on the gay community. It is like being forn into an abusive family, the way we treat gay christians... no wonder they go find other families. YOU will be the guilty one in the end, not me. We are judged on how we treat the low.
canyonwlkr 3 years ago
I fully agree to exercise grace on all sinners, BUT the sinner has to repent(To make a change for the better...}
of the sin. (Romans 6:1)
EXAMPLE: I'm a murderer, it's not my fault that I was born that way, besides, it makes me happy to kill. I know the letter of the law says it's wrong, but it's my orientation, you need to accept me as I am, not try to abuse me if I kill again. No one is being harmed by my actions, all the people I kill tell me they want to die, so everyone is happy.
RetSquid 3 years ago
I myself am a Gay Christian man and just like the Straight Christians, I try my darnest best to avoid temptation and hope to be committed to my future husband. But tell me RetSquid, being a Christian yourself, have you ever told a lie in your life...even a white lie? And tell me what your interpretation of the Grace of the Lord.
jusitke07 3 years ago
Have I ever told a lie? Yes, I've repented and made it right.
As a homosexual are you going to repent from that sin, and 'go and sin no more'?
RetSquid 3 years ago
Telling me to stop my innate homosexuality, would the same as me to tell you to stop your innate heterosexuality. When the Bible was originally translated into the English language (1611 King James Bible) it was written as "fornicator" not "homosexual." Plus, I have my interpretations of the Bible, just as you have yours, so please don't impose your ideas on me. I won't allow it. With so many interpretations and denominations out there, who is to say which is righteous over the others? Explain.
jusitke07 3 years ago
I'm not 'imposing my ideas" on anyone. If you are a homosexual it is not really my problem. Saying that you can be a Christian and a practicing homosexual is wrong. Maybe your pride in your sin is a problem too?
Can you define 'fornication' for me?
RetSquid 3 years ago
Fornication: "Sexual intercourse between partners who are not married to each other." There, nothing about "homosexuals" which is NOT a sin. Now that I've answered your question, I'm still waiting on your answers to me about my question to you: Is God's grace conditional or unconditional?
jusitke07 3 years ago
continued...As a proud Gay Christian, I don't go around to tell Seventh Day Adventist to stop worshipping on a Saturday, or other denominations to worship even on a Sunday,or tell Lutherans to stop their infant Baptisms, or the Mennonites to stop their traditions of manual labor, or Pentecostals to stop babbling, or Messianic-Jews to stop using His real Name...or, or, or...you see where I'm going with this RetSquid? Tell me now, is God's grace conditional or unconditional?
jusitke07 3 years ago
Jude 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. 19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
RetSquid 3 years ago
canyonwakr >>> Turning the Grace of God into Laciviousness !
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, TURNING THE GRACE OF OUR GOD INTO LASCIVIOUSNESS, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
XJayX7 3 years ago
Odd, that's what it sounds like the fundamentalists are doing with their rampant judging and redefining of the word "love".
Zachski 3 years ago
canyonwalkr > if you dare want to see the truth about the matter watch the following video >>>>
watch?v=_DY5XZcuXsA
XJayX7 3 years ago
I recommend bits274 and a few others stating "it is clearly a sin per the Scriptures" bother 2 study the: historical context vis-a-vis the moral sinkhole once known as Corinth & its TEMPLES, and ALSO the original koine Greek text AS WELL AS the original Hebrew texts. It is VERY easy 2 take the Word out of context in some places, and un 4 2 nately this is precisely 1 of the issues where that can occur (quite similar 2 previous claims that BOTH the OT and NT clearly *condoned* slavery. NO WAY).
bimboblacky 3 years ago
Being a christian means following Christ.
i cannot see Jesus condoning homosexuality for it is a sin in the scriptures.
However a Christian must not judge others or condemn others,but i cannot accept that homosexuality is ok.if someone is gay he must sacrifice his sexuality for God.
God is looking for people who will make sacrifices , not the smartest or coolest etc.
bits274 3 years ago
Thank you it has been a long time since I have
heard are seen a True Christian who truly lives
and speaks as Christians are to be. Thank you.
iceflamesburn 3 years ago
GRACE, (IPA stuff), noun. 1. UNmerited favor. This blows our minds and is a concept that ALL of us struggle with somewhat (regardless of your gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, planetary origin, (ha ha ha), etc.!) ONLY the Holy Spirit can really help us 2 get past THIS hurdle, and it has NOTHING 2 do with the "gay Christian" supposedly not existing in SOME people's minds. Grace is just a REALLY difficult concept (if not an outright IMPOSSIBLE one) 2 wrap one's head around! It's tough!!
bimboblacky 3 years ago
THANK YOU Sid....it is always nice to hear a good report. i honestly get "cast into hell' several times a week by my fundamentalist siblings. Isn't that CRAZY??!! I think the essence of God is PROFOUND care, love and concern. No matter what our differnces. If we are not doing that, perhaps we are no following Him. I thought people were supposed to know us by our love. Boy, do some people fall way short. GOd must go "ugh!" all day long, K
canyonwlkr 3 years ago
I don't validate my beliefs with feelings. I read , I study, I go to conferences, I do relationship and I listen to God. I think He is not good with how His children treat their siblings. THe opposite of grace is rules. Think about that for a minute. THink of the rules God could slam on on today. Think about what I suggest I the video. If we come from OTHER than grace, we are in a personal deficit. Look at people with the eyes of Jesus, let Him do the work and DRAW people to Him. Maybe?
canyonwlkr 3 years ago
Hello, may I introduce you to Romans 6?
Guffguy 3 years ago
A bit snide...and I will answer. My Bible is WELL read and studied and the crux of this is : Is homosexuality a sin? Are you open to original language and context? Where ever the word is translated, it orginally meant male, temple,cultic prostitute. I hope you would agree the translation is a poor one. And with it, many have taken about 5 to 8% of the population and deemed them unfit till they clean up their act if you then would indeed translate the world inaccurately to homosexual. cont'd
canyonwlkr 3 years ago
And if you cannot translate the word and get stuck on homosexual WHY WHY WHY would we not INVITE the gay community INTO church to get the opportunity you an I did??? If I had to be what I am today, 25 years aftere becoming a Christian, no one would have nor should they have allowed me into a church. We are people that should be know as the body of Jesus who serve and promote social justice and love. We are no longer the hands and the feet and the heart..we've become the mouth. cont'd
canyonwlkr 3 years ago
"Look at people with the eyes of Jesus, let Him do the work and DRAW people to Him. Maybe?"
For the record, I couldnt agree with this more. Jesus doesn't command us to come to the cross perfect. He doesnt say you must do "this-this-and this" to come to me. He calls us to come to Him broken, and He will make us new again. I applaud this ministry for accepting and drawing in the gay community that has been turned away by mainstream churches.
Guffguy 3 years ago
"That may be true but that doesnt take away from the fact that an STD is the only physical outcome that can ever come from that kind of act." excuse me? Straight people suffer from STDs just as much as gay people. Any many straights practise sodomy, and many, many gays dont. Being gay is NOT defined by a sexual act. You can be a gay virgin, a gay celibate, a gay companion, its about orientation not bedroom acts.
TheMilkiePirate 3 years ago
"Same sex attraction is from the devil" ? what is this based on please?
"Same sex attraction is a temptation that blinds someone into desiring the unatural"
no, same sex attraction is an innate state of being either present at birth or adopted very early on, in childhood, with no consciousness of choice. I know, im a gay man.
TheMilkiePirate 3 years ago
It's based on Scripture and what the Bible says about homosexuality. Romans 1 is probably the clearest chapter on homosexuality, but there are other references as well. And just looking at how God instituted marriage as being between a man and woman, as well as the absense of any notion that God agrees or condones same sex attractions in scripture; I feel that there is no gray area when it comes to this matter in Scripture. If you disagree, then you have to prove yourself.
Guffguy 3 years ago
The reason I say this is because if same sex attraction is not from God, then where is it from? It's a byproduct of our fallen state, our sin nature. Satan tempts everyone differently. Some he tempts with lust, others with greed, still others with anger. And some he tempts with same sex attractions. To finish off, I really dont mean to sound naive when I say this, but just look at the basic structure of the bodies of a man and a woman. We werent created to be gay.
Guffguy 3 years ago
It's not that we're tempted with same sex attractions... it's that we're attracted to men like straight men is attracted to women. Gay men as young as 6, having had loving straight parents and never having been molested, have had attractions to people of the same gender.
Furthermore... the parts fit, just believe me. I could explain why, but it's not appropriate here anymore than talking about how straight sex works.
Zachski 3 years ago
Actually, a clearer look at Romans in the original languages shows that the condemnations are NOT clear.
Furthermore, God doesn't agree or condone using the computer, watching TV, eating spaghetti, but these things are okay. Arguing from silence isn't an option.
Zachski 3 years ago
Yeah, I noticed how everyone seems to have been able to "explain away" every verse in the Bible that speaks against homosexuality. Excuse the satire here but this is all I hear when people try to explain them away: "Oh, they really didn't mean what it plainly says in the text, they obvioulsy meant something else." And you can try to rationalize it in your own mind, but it doesnt change what's written in Scripture.
Guffguy 3 years ago
As for the parts fitting thing, I think we can both agree that's a longshot answer. The male and female body were made for those parts to fit. The other way you described is just coincidental as no reproduction, or anything useful comes from it. On the contrary the only thing that does come from it is STDs.
And although God didnt condone TV or spaghetti, he also never condemned them anywhere (like done with homosexuality).
Guffguy 3 years ago
I can see how homosexuality can be natural and I can see how it can be a temptation. I believe that the Biblical evidence and common sense clearly indicate that same sex attraction (SSA) is a temptation, thus acting on your SSA is a sin. What I'm wondering is if there is any doubt in your mind whether SSA is possibly a temptation or are you 100% confident in your mind that its natural. My follow-up question then is how can you be so sure with all the evidence on the other side?
Guffguy 3 years ago
"On the contrary the only thing that does come from it is STDs"
There's far more straight people with STDs out there than gay people.
Zachski 3 years ago
That may be true but that doesnt take away from the fact that an STD is the only physical outcome that can ever come from that kind of act.
PraiseTheLord08 3 years ago
"Yeah, I noticed how everyone seems to have been able to "explain away" every verse in the Bible that speaks against homosexuality."
Biblical scholars who have studied the Bible FAR MORE than 90% of Christians (even so far as studying the original language) have arrived to various conclusions. The English Bible, even the King James version, is a translation of a translation. There's inaccuracies in the translation, not to mention subconscious bias by the translators.
Zachski 3 years ago
How can you say this? If the translators were able to allow some homosexuality conspiracy theory to get into the Bible, how can you trust anything written in the Bible?
If you choose to believe that parts of the Bible is inaccurate, errant, or false; then you have to believe that the entire book is. Picking and choosing is simply irational.
Guffguy 3 years ago
You know very little of my theology. People around me see me a devote, passionate Christian. I can go verse for verse with the best. But who cares? I think it is more important to look at people rather than issues. Read the link I sent you and consider, is this a hill you would choose for others to die on? Not me. My doctrine is extremely sound on salvation. I live the life , not just know the words. And my goodness, to have a conversation on faith and works...that was twenty years ago.
canyonwlkr 3 years ago
I think it takes a GREAT deal of spititual maturity to get to a place where you can let other people be who they are and just love them. Either that or having experienced so much grace that you can do it.
You MUST read th Bible in CONTEXT to get it and STILL
canyonwlkr 3 years ago
remain loving to others. Could you imagine if someone told you MUST change your orientation to love men rather than women to come into church? AND homosexuality is NOT a choice. If you are stuck there,that would be your first step of learning. You can not possibly have seen what I have, know the amount of gay Christians I do,studied the SPECIFIC scriptures I have in original language as well as years of Bible study in general to have a fuller vision on this topic. We will not change the other.
canyonwlkr 3 years ago
I will continue doing what I am doing in hopes to reach out to people that others push away so hard. God put the compassion in me, I did not create it. I try to point detracters to other possiblitities or back to grace: beyond that, I walk away and use my efforts where I know they work. I write for a secular gay magazine monthly and open lots of door with that. Have your methods worked within the confines of the commission? I would think not. We now agree to disagree.I tried walk away....
canyonwlkr 3 years ago
"Could you imagine if someone told you MUST change your orientation to love men rather than women to come into church" probably THE main issue with this is,"is homosexuality a sin" now lets say for one sec that it was...wouldn't the church have the responsibility to see that people step away from their sin? we can't talk about a messed up church because with what the church believes right now, they are doing exactly what they should be.we just need to get at the truth whether its a sin or not
DanLee8884 3 years ago
"homosexuality is NOT a choice" I don't think this statement is proven as much as "homosexuality is only a choice" is...woudln't that only work if scientists found the "gay gene"?...so that perspective doesn't work for me...I would be curious to know what is your view on Christians who were gay and accepted it as sin and have "become" heterosexual...I know at least one man who is married and has children now...
DanLee8884 3 years ago
Statistically..8% of the population is bi...he has in all liklihood decided with social and religious pressure to choose to be only with a woman.
canyonwlkr 3 years ago