Tibet And China :Truth from Facts II

[NarutoPHC]

hey phagpa108 , your videos do make a lot of sense about the past dynasties

TY for sharing

[pinoypride800]

china = shit

[MrPhon1984]

chinese are arrogant people they believe everything is theirs. one day they will fall no arrogant empire last forever look at roman mongols soviet union. china will fall to if they keep grabbing land from their neighbors. even their fellow communist vietnam hate them right now and siding with usa. india got problem with china. vietnam philippine and japan and south korea. all asia is fed up with their bullying.

[Turfan369]

China has always problem with the truth.

Chinese history is always adorned with strange feathers.

[xianyu3211]

i almost made a video to show yes yes yes yes of tibet as part of china in yuan, ming, qing, roc, and prc......lah...but since you got so few views then nobody gonna care lah.....i wont do advertisement for your favor lor.....so forget aobout it lor.....

[xianyu3211]

what??? why you stop showing the map when tibet become part of china in yuan dynasty ah??? omg you so well-trained lier ah~~who you wanna fool ah~~get some smarter tibetans to fight on lor~~your organization dont always use dumb people understand?? you post the video for more than 2 years you only got 1212 views....aren't you feel shamed about it?? mah?? lor??

[phagpa108]

Chinese tell a distorted version of history to "proove" that Tibet is part of China. To "proove" that the Mongol conquest of Tibet, and then china (and korea, and Kazakhstan) somehow made Tibet part of China since ancient times.

But that is a lie. There are not any historians outside of the control of the CCP who believe these lies.

If you have access to free information, then please read Pan Yihongs dissertation "Son of Heaven and Heavenly Qaghan: Sui-Tang China and its neighbors."

[9MiddleKingdom9]

If you use maps, you purposely use ancient maps

Do you know that there is no USA, no Great Britain during when the maps were shown?

Does that mean USA and Great Britain are illegally occupying territory?

If you are really "not brainwashed", please show the maps from 1279 to 2009

If you cannot or have no balls, don't reply

[phagpa108]

When Scots want to advocate for independence from the UK, they are not shot. When Native Americans want to control all police jobs in Native American lands-- which are autonomous--within the US-- they are not shot.. TODAY Tibetans are shot if they try to run away from the Chinese who have occupied their land. Tibet was not part of China until 1950 because China did not exist until 1950. Its a hard history for Chinese to live with, isn't it. So it makes you angry. Good Luck with your education!

[9MiddleKingdom9]

1. I am not angry

2. I have an overseas degree with National University of Singapore (so stop using poor education to attack me)

3. Scotland is not independent from Great Britain

4. How many native Americans were killed? (so your "education" superiority never teaches you that)

5. It's not a hard history for me or Chinese (It's hard for haters who are praying everyday something bad will destroy China)

6. Yuan dynasty occupied Tibet

7. I dun insult people's education (which is very rude)

[phagpa108]

1) Tibetans in Tibet do not feel Chinese. They call Chinese "gyeme".

2)The chinese invasion and occupation of Tibet has been so brutal that more than a thousand Tibetans a year continue to flee, into exile, across the Himalayas.

3) Chinese border guards murder them, just for trying to escape a" Motherland" that they do not feel part of.

So, tell me, why don't Tibetans "know" they are Chinese?

Because history proves they never were Chinese until 1950. Why are Chinese denying this fact ?

[9MiddleKingdom9]

1. If you think China is so bad, so cruel, so tyranical, I suggest you spend some money and go to Tibet (My last comment, if you have no money or find excuse, I suggest you keep quiet)

2. This guy is a typical hater and troll (My suggestion to Chinese youtubers are to click on view all comments: If we have already say something, dun repeat or reply)

[9MiddleKingdom9]

1. China is a mult-ethnic country with 56 people

2. When one ethnic conquered the country, they adopted Chinese dynastic names and titles of emperors

3. Many countries are not a "single race"

4. Chinese civilization does not mean "Han civilization" but 56 people

5. There is a difference between civilization and race

6. A lot of foreigners always get confused about that (I don't blame them because their mindset is already set: China = Han Chinese, India = Hindu, Thailand = Thai)

[TheMightyGuri]

1. which country is not multi ethnic? LOL

2. which doesnt change the fact of a foreign rule of china

3. as you said in 1 lol

4. well, tibetans AINT considered as chinese

5. a government that uses violence as a tool is not a civilization

6. which is a fact

[9MiddleKingdom9]

Btw using capital letters on internet is equal to shouting

I can read with good eyesight (there is no need to shout or write big words)

Confident people don't need to shout or emphasize constantly to make a point

[phagpa108]

If you believe that "history prooves" that Tibet has been part of "China" since the Mongol invasion of all of Asia-- then yes, you have been brainwashed. Its just not a fact.

Read Luciano Petech's "Tibetan relations with Sung China and with the Mongols"-- in "China Among Equals" Tibet was never conquered by China until 1950. And Tibetans in general hate Chinese today because of that invasion....

If Chinese want Tibetans to feel Chinese- Quite shooting them! That would be a start.

[9MiddleKingdom9]

1. Tibetans don't hate Chinese, because I live in Fukien and Heilongjiang and have Tibetan and minorities friends

2. There are Tibetans all over China not just Tibet (and most enjoy a good standard of living)

3. You say Chinese shoot Tibetans (oh then Americans, Koreans never shoot their people)

4. American tanks crush 2 Iraqi protesters in Baghdad (so your "superior" media and "education" never tells you that)

[TheBrolit]

@phagpa108 The Yuan were sinified during their rule over China and Tibet which means the Yuan themselves became Chinese. "Chinese" was and is always considered as a cultural identity and even Han-Chinese were granted government positions; there were even emperors that intermarried with Han-Chinese. The same can be applied to the Manchus and every other people that conquered China. And the Manchus conquered China, it did not became a vassal, big difference.

[phagpa108]

@TheBrolit ... Yes, some of Mongol descendants of the Mongols who ruled China, as part of the Mongol Empire,were "sinified": just as many Chinese today have become "westernized"-- many people adopt technology, fashions and food of the culture of other people. That does not change who they are. When the Chinese overthrew the Mongols, in China-- do you know what happened to the "sinified" Mongols? They were all driven across the Great Wall, back to Mongolia. Chinese did not consider them Chinese.

[TheBrolit]

@phagpa108 But like I said before: there were also intermarriages between Han-Chinese and Mongols as well as Manchus and the Han-Chinese gained prominent positions in the Yuan and Qing governments. And even when the Yuan were driven back to Mongolia, they still butressed their claim on China and that the Ming were their relatives, they still held on to the title of 皇帝. Anyway, this whole thing of Tibetan independence is getting wanton.

[phagpa108]

@TheBrolit You remember what you said, but you do not read much history. Both the Mongol and the Manchu Rulers of China-- after they conquered China-- FORBID Chinese to intermarry with the rulers (yes those did relax somewhat, later...). Tibetans on the other hand, were allowed to intermarry with both Manchu and Mongols, by the rulers. Why is it called the "Forbidden City"? Because Chinese were forbidden to go there by Manchu Rulers... Chinese were seen by Mongols and Manchu as a subject race.

[TheBrolit]

@phagpa108 Yet the Kangxi emperor considered the Han-Chinese as one of the most important ethnic groups of the Qing empire and not a subject race; the introduction of the Manchu-Han Imperial Banquet was the result of this. And why is the Forbidden city called the Forbidden city? Because only the Emperor, his eunuchs and govt. officials were allowed to enter; not the ordinary people; it has nothing to do with the Manchus, they didn't construct the Forbidden city.

[TheBrolit]

@phagpa108 And btw, the reason why the Yuan lost their influence in Mongol lands in the latter part of their history is because the Mongols themselves saw the Yuan as too Chinese. The meaning of being Chinese back then (and it still does a little) was to be part of Chinese society.

[phagpa108]

The demand by Tibetans for independence is not "Wanton". Its a fact. based on the facts of history. Chinese can deal with this, or they can just try to kill all the Tibetans.... The Mongols Butchered an estimated 200 Million Chinese when they conquered China. Read some history. That's why Chinese still hate Mongols. Yes, when speaking to Chinese, Mongols used 皇帝 as a title-- just as when speaking to Americans the Chinese Communist Party uses the word "democracy"...

[TheBrolit]

@phagpa108 Some of which can be easily proven wrong. If there's any country China has a relation with in which historical issues form an obstacle in bilateral relations, it would be Japan and not Mongolia. There's more Sinophobia rapidly on the rise in Mongolia than there is Mongolophobia in China. The Yuan still held on to the title 皇帝 even when they were driven back to Mongolia and never ceased to claim that the Ming were their relatives.

[phagpa108]

@TheBrolit So The Mongols are Chinese, because they once conquered, ruled, and then were driven out of China? Just because they use the word, 皇帝 ? LOL. Go talk to the Mongols about that. You'll get your head kicked in. Why do Chinese want to prove that " history proves" Mongols, or Tibetans or Manchu's or Uighurs are Chinese? These people do not see themselves as Chinese-- Chinese shouting that "History Proves", spouting the propaganda they have been taught does not change the facts of history

[TheBrolit]

@phagpa108 Yes, the Yuan were Chinese; not the Mongols in general. Using the title 皇帝 was just one of the many examples of their sinification and the sinification of the Manchus was and is still even more noticeable. Maybe separatists of those people you've mentioned residing overseas don't consider themselves Chinese but Chinese nowadays is a nationality; every member of every ethnic group in China is considered as Chinese. When it comes to misinformation, the Tibet movement is no better.

[FalunGongIsAmazing]

@ TheBrolit

Do you know there are many LIES on CCP websites ???

.

Sadly some of those lies are in circulation and many people have been fooled by them

[phagpa108]

The Maps of the land that Chinese now claim as "China" from 1279 to 2009 are clear. Foreigners (Mongols and Manchu never said they were Chinese when they conquered the Chinese) conquered China, and other territory around it. The Mongol and Manchu conquests of China did not make Tibet part of China.

Have you read What Sun Yat Sen said at the Tomb of the Ming Emperors after he overthrew the Manchu Empire?

Clearly not... Sun saw Manchu as foreigners. But you have either not studied this, or.

[9MiddleKingdom9]

Hi 1. Please show the maps of 1279 to 2009

2. Mongols and Manchus conquered China but ruled as Chinese dynasties. They adopted Chinese dynastic names "Yuan" and "Qing"

3. When Sun Yat Sen overthrew Manchu Dynasty, he did say Manchus and Mongols were ethnic minorities of China (so please who have not studied properly)

[WuTangtst]

@phagpa108 I'm not sure if you're correct, but if you look at the map of the Republic of China, and not post-1949 People's Republic of China, you will see what the true boundaries of China looks like. When Mr. Sun-Yut Sen overthrew Qing dynasty, the emperor Puyi bequest all former territory under Qing ontrol over to the Chinese government. There was a former event and official handover.

[WuTangtst]

@phagpa108 I think the cause that province of Tibet is Chinese is not because of ancient times or history whatsoever. This world is not about "talks". The lands of the native Mayan were not Canadian or American in ancient times either.From what I understand is that when the father of China formed the Five colour flag and coined the nationality, "Chinese", he declared China to include Tibet. At that time, the 8-national alliance recognized China's borders as official.

[Taywarit13]

@9MiddleKingdom9 great britian is england ireland scotland combine stupid. england was and always was a kingdom. north america never had a kigndom just bunch of native living in tipee.

[MrPhon1984]

@9MiddleKingdom9 compare usa to tibet is the stupidiest thing. everyone know usa is the youngiest nation out there. tibet has been around for thousand of yrs. and neverw as part of china i know because i am a tai. my ancestor use to rule yunnan which was nanchao thousand of yrs ago. nanchao and tibet ally to fight the chinese who keep attacking us. so if yunnan wasnt yours tibet isnt yours chinese either. to get to tibet u got to pass through yunnan. and yunnan was a mongol name not chinese.

[Bodgyalo319]

This is absolutely true..anyone with a brain can pick up a map and see for themselves..anyone with red blinkers will never see because they have a brain deificit

[beginmaster]

Haha whatta stupid lies

[phagpa108]

Begin, you might want to begin reading a few historys of China, Tibet and Mongolia. The Chinese Communist Party is trying to turn history in to lies, and it is able to convince some of the people, like you, that its lies are history. But sorry, the facts are different. And China cannot become a great nation till it writes a history founded on truth, and acepted fact. Calling facts lies, does not change facts. It just makes the person saying 'lie' look uneducated. Is that how China wants to look?

[Bodgyalo319]

well done..love your videos

[phagpa108]

Thanks!

[arafel1964]

Dalai Lama is compromising, everyone knows in his heart he wants an independent Tibet. When he's gone then there will be a shift. Tibetans who have lost their cultural identity will more than likely turn militant. I have already seen signs of this. Then Chinese in Tibet will enjoy many, many years, of suicide bombings and daily attacks. It's against Tibetan beliefs but by then Chinese will have succeeded in dismantling Tibetan culture and peaceful approach to living

[phagpa108]

arafel1964-- yes, you are correct. He is doing now what he feels is best for China and tibet, to avoid violence and blood shed. He is willing to compromise even his own country, to avoid violence. Chinese do not seem to understand that when he is gone they will face a long war with Tibet. Only the Dalai Lama could get Tibetans to accept a compromise on independence. Once he is gone it will grow bloody. Very sad that Chinese do not reach out. Except of course they are happy to see Tibetans fight

[KirbyZhang]

there are 3 times the mongols who are chinese citizens than who are mongolian citizens lol...

china really own everything in that neighborhood. it's the only one that kept a long civilization and emerged with a continuous culture into the modern state. your arguments are lame and futile. everyone recognized Qing China, Republic China, PR China. why are you the only one with mental problem?

[phagpa108]

Less than 10% of the Population living within the Inner Mongolian areas of the Manchu Empire in 1890 were CHINESE. The Manchu State FORBID Chinese to move to Mongol Areas. The Manchu State was not a Chinese state-- it was run for the benefit of the Manchu. Thats why the Chinese finally overthrew in after being slaves to Manchu for 400 years.

But yes Chinese would LIKE to "own everything in that neigborhood"-- thanks for showing us the real reason for Chinese lies about History.

[KirbyZhang]

what ever you say, how come you can only talk about 120 years ago?

[impearless]

Fucking gooks,stop lying!

[HoangVinhCalifornia]

Chinazi even claim Africa are Chinazi, soon they'll claim the world are belong to chinazi. Communist must be destroy the sooner the better, don't let them brain washed our children.

[uknoww8]

most real manchus want to restore their culture language

only few chink manchus want to divide as and separate from korea or other altaic people

manchus dont want to be a chink all life along

[phagpa108]

Actually its not China that is the enemy of peace. Its the Chinese Communist Party. The Chinese people will free themselves of the CCP, and then a democratic China, like democratic Japan, will be respected. As it is, the great name of China is covered in blood by this monster, the CCP. Very sad.

[phagpa108]

Chinese claim Mongols are Chinese

It is a lie

Chinese Claim Uygers and Kazakhs are Chinese

It is a lie

Why do Chinese want to claim that all their neighbors are Chinese?

It would be bad enough if just Chinese Communist Party spread this lie.

But many Chinese people around the world believe that China is the center of the World, and that all neighbors of China are just

"Not Yet Chinese".

Chinese lies about history are a threat to world peace

[TheRealChina]

Thank you for uploading such a clear Picture of what China has done in Tibet and the relationship between Tibet & China !

We all must do our part in bringing JUSTICE to those oppressed ! Tibetan or Chinese or any other group of human being

[CaptainCool07]

and show the map of the republic of china

[phagpa108]

Capt Cool-- Yeah, I understand, you are having trouble understanding the maps. Thats because you have only seen maps of Asia drawn by the Chinese Communist Party. Truth is not owned by the Party. History is not owned by the Party. Maps created by the party are lies. So your head is filled with lies. China cannot become great if Chinese are filled with Lies. Good luck learning the truth about Asian History!

[CaptainCool07]

who ever said i was a commie yelling and making fun of me wont change anything

[phagpa108]

Well then, if you had an education out of the control of the CCP, then you should know that all historians agree that the various Chinese Empires who ruled what is now China, and parts of Xingjiang, never ruled Xingjiang for long periods. And only the foreign conquest empires ruled Tibet, and China... China (like the Ming and Tang and Song) never conqured Tibet. So you cannot deny that can you?

[CaptainCool07]

this shows me that xinjang is part of china cant deny that huh?

[phagpa108]

Capt Cool-- No the maps show that parts of what China now calls Xingjiang were part of the Han and Tang Dynasty. But Xinjiang was also part of the Tibetan and Arab empires in Inner Asia also-- for more time than it was part of China. History from a thousand years ago does not 'proove' Chinese borders. If you do not know that, then you are not educated. So sad to see the Chinese kept ignorant by the Chinese Communist Party

[suyuanhang]

show the map of Qing dynasty and the map of Republic of China, notice! The map of Republic of China, not the map of the People's Republic of China. And notice, the Qing Dynasty.

You will know the truth even you have these maps from Japnese historical text books.

[TheMightyGuri]

chinese people dont understand that manchurian and mongols AINT chinese

but who cares?

china is doomed with the CCP because nobody respects such a superpower without human rights! NO MATTER HOW WEALTHY AND HOW MANY PEOPLE CHINA WILL HAVE IN THE FUTURE

[suyuanhang]

Tibetians are Chinese as well.

Qing danasty is part of history of China and who cares about your version of Chinese history?

[phagpa108]

If Tibetans are Chinese then French are Germans. Sorry. This is CCP propaganda that you have swallowed. Better to do some study. Qing, or Manchu Dynasty conquered and ruled the Chinese as foreign slaves. And the Chinese overthrew these foreign masters, and murdered millions of Manchu in 1912. Or you have not studied Chinese history?

[suyuanhang]

You will know the truth even you have these maps from Japnese historical text books.

[phagpa108]

Uh, no. the maps are from Washington University in US, and other non-Japanese sources.

[suyuanhang]

I mean you idiot please refer to Japanese resources.

[phagpa108]

"Idiot"? You want to call someone you do not know, whose facts you have not taken time to understand an Idiot? Name calling will not solve China's problem with Tibet. Tibet was never part of China until its conquest, by brute force, beginning in 1949. and BTW, if you want some one to look at 'japanese resources' then you should tell me what they are, and where I can see them. Otherwise you appear uneducated.

[suyuanhang]

I don't know what type of history the KMT taught you, but I believe they also deem Qing dynasty is part of Chinese history, that's the consensus of Chinese and it's recognized worldwide, that's the reason I tell you if you don't believe me, you can refer to the Japnese historical text book.

[phagpa108]

Do you know how many million Manchu were murdered by the Chinese in 1912? Do you know why Mao cut off his Manchu Pig tail? The Manchu saw themselves as foreign conquerors of the slave people, the Chinese. Which is why Chinese hated them so much. And murdered so many Manchu. The CCP, has convinced Chinese (in China) that Manchu were Chinese--but historians around the world know otherwise. Chinese were FORBIDDEN to enter the FORBIDDEN city in Beijing. Because they were Chinese.

[suyuanhang]

You idiot don't know Mao was not the first who cut off the pig tail, and you idiot don't know Chinese don't hate Manchurians and you idiot don't know that there is still lots of Manchurians living in North-East China. You idiot just refer some useless maps from America, you are from America? You idiot don't know the world, don't tell me that Americans know the histroy from primary school.

Eat your shit, idiot, I'm in Britain, come and eat my shit.

[phagpa108]

Wonderful, now Dear Suyuan you allow all of us to see how well you write, and how many curse words you use. You make Chinese look so uneducated. Is that what you want to do? You want to yell and throw curse words at anyone who tries to let some light into your dark cage?

[suyuanhang]

You are just bunches of cockroach Tibetians, don't think Manchurians will be so inferior like you cockroaches.

You are not qualified to speak for Manchurians, you subhuman.

In my eyes, you are not deserved to be called human being, you are just a bug which can be squeezed easily.

[phagpa108]

So, people who are educated are sub-Human, cockroaches that you would like to squeeze. Huumm. Lets see. Again you are appearing uneducated. Who would listen to ranting and cursing from uneducated bullies? No one. Which is why no one is listening to the propaganda from the CCP-- whether it comes for Suyuan in UK, or Hu in Beijing. The world does not believe Chinese propaganda, and the bullies of China are so angry at us! Oh dear. We are so afraid. Of bug squishers! Please, grow up.

[suyuanhang]

The concept of Chinese people is not created by CCP but the father of Republic of China before 1911. I don't know who you are, but it seems that you are ignorant about Chinese history, if you are Tibetian, then don't pretend.

In his theory, Manchurian is Chinese people , they living within the boundary of China and are under control of Chinese goverment, they share identical past with Chinese. Unlike Tibetians, Manchurian moderately living in their region, share the same country with Chinese.

[suyuanhang]

And I tell you, Chinese people is not equal to Chinese, Chinese is often refer to Han Chinese but Chinese people initially consists of Manchurian and Han Chinese. After the overthrown of Manchurians' regime, this concept is expanded that it covers the whole minorities within the boundary of Qing dynasty.

[suyuanhang]

In the stereotype of Tibetians' propaganda, Tibetians are always dipicted as a group of humble and rational people but on the contrary, Chinese are evil and warmongers.

But Chinese remain deeming Tibetians as their compatriots, Tibetian Plateau are still a holy land not only for Tibetians but also Chinese. The land of spiritual charming.

So after the broke out of Tibetians rebel last year, the sacred Tibetians' image mirrorred in Chinese heart is damaged.

[suyuanhang]

I mean Tibetians are making things worse.

Tibetians hurted the only one who can save them - Han Chinese in mainland China.

[wolfofstorm]

Where r the las 3 dybasties?

Yuan, ming and the las qing???

Put all the history no only the part that favore u.

[magnietuit]

comments approval again?

you are just discrediting yourself.

[magnietuit]

very interesting logic, Tibet and Chinese were both ruled by mongolians, and the period was called Yuan Dynasty, when the mongolians declared themselves as the ruler of China, not the ruler of mongolia.

therefore it is clear, tibet was a part of china since yuan dynasty, that's how ccp always explained.

[emptyna]

fact?? all i see if you trying to brain wash everyone XD

[phagpa108]

Yes, the Chinese Communist Party has worked hard to brainwash most Chinese about story it tells where "Tibet was part of China since ancient times". However facts do not support this fantasy. Anyone who reads history knows that/

[emptyna]

so did every other country in the world

[phagpa108]

Yep, facts. The facts of history show that no Chinese army invaded Tibet until 1950. Before that Manchu and Mongol Armies invaded Tibet. but never a Chinese one. Tough for chinese to accept facts. But China cannot become a great nation till it deals with facts. Black cat, White Cat doesnt matter. Does it catch mice? Thats the pragmatic view Chinese must develop. Need to give up trying to warp history with ideology.

[phagpa108]

Facts are clear. No Chinese army invaded Tibet until 1950. China cannot become a great nation till it understands the Mongol and Manchu Conquests were not Chinese ones. If Mongol Conquset of Tibet, and then 80 years later, China, made Tibet part of China then all of Iran, Mongolia, Korea are part of China. But they are not. Its just a fact. Great nations are not built on lies. Its important you try to educate yourself.

[CommunismJEWINVENTED]

TANG dynasty owned tibet when the gay tibetan king songsten gampo capitulated to taizong

(641-670) tibet part of tang dynasty

[phagpa108]

You are one sick puppy, who cannot be bothered to read Chinese history. China will remain the sick man of the world if its citizens cannot bother to study science and truth. Too bad for China it has such ignorant children.

[CommunismJEWINVENTED]

IMAO. han dynasty defeated the xiongnu and chased them al the way to europe to become the huns, you claim china "cowered" behind the wall, and china controlled xinjiang during han dynasty you subhuman

[TheMightyGuri]

yeah yeah yeah and wikipedia lies, thats why its blocked in china -.-

lol go fuck yourself please

[ariehstone]

phagpa108

if Tibet does not belong to China

surely native -America(lakato,mohawk does not belong to Anglo-spanish-French control).

tibet,japs,viet,mongols,korea,­huns,turks,cozzacks

,chinese and ezkimoes pretty much the same branch of ONE PEOPLE !!!

i want them become one nation,one system,one family of difference diversity,like in the days of gengiz khan!!!

No Anglo-french can undermine Asia.!!!

[ariehstone]

phagpa108

Tibet r part of the history that stretch to Mongolia might'

it carried on from Manchuria to present middle kingdom,

accept the fact that Native America and Iraq r part of Global white Anglo-America society.

the same as Palestine belong to Israel.

the same path Tibet have to follow.

[phagpa108]

Arieshstone-- Your education is faulty. Palestine does not belong to Israel. Iraq does not belong to the US. Tibet does not belong to China. You are saying that "might makes right" and that is acceptable only to barbarians. Civilized people renounce such ancient ideas.

[000001313]

Let us talk about truth and facts but I don't think you can handle the truth: 170+ countries (governments)acknowledge the FACT that Tibet is part of China; and Tibet has been in the control of China,PR for over 50 years. Believe it or not, even CCP drops the rein, Tibet will still be part of China. So no matter how hard you whine and bark, you just can not change this. Pathetic

[phagpa108]

Yes China has bullied every STATE on earth into accepting its claim over Tibet. But people around the world know the facts of history. That China invaded and occupied Tibet in 1950 and has no historic basis for that claim. Its a case of naked aggression. Of power through the barrel of a gun. No one wants war with China so the world is betting that when democracy comes to China a Free China will not want to colonize Tibet as the fascists do today. History does not justify Chinas occupation.

[DalaiLamaVideo]

You conveniently stopped just before about 1300 AD haha... How disingenuous of you.

[phagpa108]

Ah, so you admit that Tibet was never part of china before 1300? After 1300 Chinese and the rest of the world diasgree on how to define the Mongol Conquest. Chinese want to view the Chinese conquest of Russia, Iran, Korea, Tibet, and then China, as somehow a Chinese Conquest of Tibet. But no one is buying accept those on the payroll of the CCP. Scholars around the world tiptoe around The Partys fantasy, if they want a visa to go to China... but no one supports this fantasy.

[DalaiLamaVideo]

No one has ever claimed otherwise. You set up that strawman yourself and tore it down like a crazy person by yourself.

No one disagrees on how to define Mongol conquest. Kublai Khan was declared the Emperor of China, he moved to China, etc. Who is disputing that? You are!

Has anyone ever accused you of being on the Dalai Lama's pay role? It's funny how you try to discredit real people and facts that don't jive with how you imagine things ought to be.

[phagpa108]

Your description utterly falst, not based on the historic records of the Mongol Empire. Kublai accepted Phagpa as his teacher BEFORE Song China was conquered. Kublai adopted Chinese administrative methods the better to enslave the Chinese. He put NON-CHINESE in all administrative postiions, over the Chinese, whom he did not trust. You have not read any historys of the Mongol Empire. Again, read Rossabi's book "China Among Mongols", there scholars summarize MONGOL records, from 13th-14th Century

[fyan007]

History is history. Reality is reality. Tibet is a part of China. Tibet was a part of China ( From 1300AD,because nobody denies Yuan and Qing dynasty was China, the emperors resided in Beijing.) And Tibet will be a part of China.

[phagpa108]

Yes, History is history, and you have never read any. Tibet was never part of China until China invaded Tibet in 1950. This simple fact is not denied by historians. See for example the recent article by Elliot Sperling in the New York Times (April 28, "Don't Know Much About History". Whether Tibet will be part of China depends on Chinese and Tibetans. If Chinese want Tibetans to be happy citizens of a Multi Ethnic Nation, then Chinese will begin to understand why Tibetans feel so much resentment

[DalaiLamaVideo]

I think you're more resentful than normal Tibetan people. Why? I don't know.

Of course, I'm not talking about the descendants of those former slave and serf owners. They are rightly upset about losing a life of luxury and privilege, but that's life I guess.

[phagpa108]

Have you read Elliot Sperling's recent article in the New York Times? See April 18 editon, article called "Don't Know Much About History." Sperling makes it clear (and he is an academic who has stuided Tibetan history for decades) that Tibet was never part of China until the 1950 Invasion.

[lozfromcorby]

your back up source is an AMERICAN scholer...ok mate, keep believing! haha

im English and even found that amsuing!

[phagpa108]

Dear Loz. You want to read a Chinese scholar whose PHD dissertation proves Tibet was not part of the Tang Dynasty and that Chinese bureaucrats and scholars have had a policy of lying about that, then, and ever since? Ok. Read A book. I LOL trying to imagine that, but ok, read a book: See Yihong Pan's great book, Son of Heaven and Heavenly Qaghan: Sui-Tang China and its Neighbors, 1997. Or would you prefer Italian scholar. Fine read Luciano Petech, Tibetan Reltaions w Sung China & W the Mongols

[apartment7e333]

are you 5 year old kids? or you must be day dreaming in history class. shame for you...

[LobsterHammerFoot]

Nice propaganda video though didnt continue till Dalai Lama was made and Tibetan became part of our glorius nation. Including your precious Taiwan. Oh before you think I'm Brainwashed Let me tell you I've lived outside of China for 18 years and My family my grandpa fought the Japanese on Chang Kai Shek's side and My Granduncle fought the Japanese on Mao's Side when My grandpa's forces folded.

[phagpa108]

A lot of questions Lobster. Lets keep it simple. China invaded an independent country, called "pu" or "Tibet" in 1950. No Han, no Manchu, lived in Tibet. The Tibetans had Tibetan money. They did not use Chinese money. They did not speak Tibetan. They did not want to be part of China and did not see themselves as part of China, during the prior thousand years. These facts c annot be changed by word games. You are seeking to justify imperialism and colonialism

[LobsterHammerFoot]

Yes they did want to be a part of China. When the Nepalese attacked the region they came to us (yes you and me our Kingdom) for help. We Liberated adn established Dalai Lama wether it was a tributary system or direct control the Tibetans didnt care they were chinese and all nation prior to 1903 acknowledge this. I never justified Colonialism I acknowledge the truth. You spread your lies and heresy. You know nothing of our glorious country and concede to western powers to rule over our land.

[phagpa108]

Manchu Rulers sent troops to help repel Nepalese who invaded Tibet. Yes. So? Then they left. No Manchu or Chinese ever lived in Tibet. There was no colonization. Tibet's relations with the Manchu never made Tibet part of China-- the Manchus suzerain over Tibet, not sovereign. I am studying and spreading history, which you know nothing about. Western powers NEVER want to and NEVER will rule China. But China cannot rule itself unless it creates a civilized government. Empowered by democracy

[LobsterHammerFoot]

Wow did you ever live in those days to tell me that no chinese lived in Tibet? Western Powers Never Want to and never will rule china? Ever heard of Boxer Rebellion asshole. What History book are you reading. Ask your self what is democracy? Democracy is for people to choose their government. So far the Chinese in mainland know the Government is doing a good job economically they only wnat more freedom. What you and westerners want is for china to fold.

[cnfjti3]

Lol, that just sad, because Tibet was never officially recognized as an independent country prior to 1950. PRC was only seeking reunification of the territories Qing Dynasty lost, so you can't call it colonialism. (See how troops never marched into areas beyond borders held by Qing?)

[LobsterHammerFoot]

So iF ROC invaded Tibet would you have a different opinion? You say we never ruled tibet with sovereighn might but we did. We set up Emmisaries, Merchants, Scholars and trade routes over there. How do you think the Dalai Lama sent his messages and tribute? Your facts are distorted and clearly Illogical. So we helped the Tibetans ut of Goodwill and that there was politics behind the Nepalese incident. Oh if Only a world like that exists.

[dxkicker]

money dont mean a thing, hong kong has its own money, hk is independence nation? taiwan has its own money, TW is a nation?( u wish, no other country in the world recognize that. and taiwan never declare independence, cuz china will sink that island). now is more important than the past, china retaining its terriorty = imperialism? again every other nation recognize tibet, taiwan, east turkestan as part of china. ONE CHINA. u might have a different view, but look at how the world views this.

[aznxfire123]

USA was never part of USA until foreigners invaded them in 1500's too...

[phagpa108]

The New World was discovered and colonized by the European powers in the 15th and 16th Century. Their crimes in the New World are some of the most horrific in Human history. Mass Murder. Genoicide. You really want to say that China has the right to do to Tibetans in the 20th Century what Imperialist, Racist, Colonialist Europeans did to Native Americans? If not then you better start to listen to what Tibetans think about the past 50 years of Chinese colonialism in tibet. You can Change IT!!

[fhahahahaha]

Dude,400 years ago, most countries in modern world didn't exist.

[cnfjti3]

"In addition, they say that China (under the Republic of China government) continued to maintain sovereignty over Tibet between 1912 and 1950; no country gave Tibet diplomatic recognition"

Please read on. All info were found from wikipedia, which is meant to be unbiased.

[phagpa108]

CNF: Like to Quote Wiki do we: Try this one "This event marked the incorporation of Tibet into the Mongol Empire." What date was that? 1246. And when was China (the Rump Song Empire) incorporated into the Mongol Empire? 1290's. So now, please explain. How did a Mongol subjugation of Tibet and then LATER, China, make Tibet "part of China since the 13th Century" as China's great scholar Hu Jintao keeps repeating? Are you hear to learn something, or just to spread propaganda?

[cnfjti3]

Yes, at first the Mongols conquered everything, but just as with the Manchus, they were assimilated into Chinese culture. This could be seen because later successors to the throne of the Yuan dynasty preferred to call themselves Emperors of China instead of the Khagan. Also, Mongols that live in China today are considered Chinese because they are one of the 56 different ethnic minorities. So arguably, it is still Chinese conquest.

[phagpa108]

CNF. Mongols exterminated nearly HALF of all Chinese when they invaded north China. Chinese did not forget that. In 1380's when they rose up against foreign Mongol rule they drove ALL mongols from within the Great Wall, back to Mongolia. Mongol Conquest is viewed by Chinese Communist Party as "chinese' because its the only way Party can make this fantasy claim that "Tibet has been part of China since 13th Century. But ask MONGOLS, in MONGOLIA and they will tell you the facts. They invaded China.

[LobsterHammerFoot]

What about me Im Manchurian . Am I not Chinese as well. Are you Han by the way?

[phagpa108]

Do you speak Manchurian? Have you read any Manchu books, in Manchu? Most Manchurians have been exterminated, as a nation, by Chinese Colonialism. If you are of Manchu background, ask you parents about what happened in 1920 to Manchu in China. How many Manchu were butchered by Chinese? Why did Chinese eradicate spoken Manchu in China? Is the only good Manchu, one who speaks Chinese? Are you Chinese? You will have to answer that question, but to do so you must learn the true history of the Manchu

[LobsterHammerFoot]

Yeah to be the puppet of Japan. We kicked Han ass and we are stil chinese. Are you into this european colonial thinking that nations should be seperated by race?

[phagpa108]

Manchu like Nurahachi never knew, and never used the word 'Chinese', thats an English word. They ruled the Han for their personal enrichment, and power. Manchu wanted to use Tibetans to subdue Mongols (through religion)--but they did not want Mongols or Tibetans to become Chinese. Chinese were forbidden to enter Tibet or Mongolia, by law. Who made that law? Manchu's. To preserve the Manchu, the Mongol and the Tibetan nations. The Manchu never wanted to make the other nations Chinese.

[cnfjti3]

Lol, by the CCP only? You are really out of your mind. Please ask any credited historian about the Yuan Dynasty and whether it was Chinese dynasty or not. Even wikipedia listed Yuan Dynasty under the history of China.

Yes, they did indeed invade China, but you are forgetting that China is not a nation made of only Han Chinese. Mongols in China are just as Chinese as the Hans are, and the Mongols are officially listed as an ethnic group within China.

[phagpa108]

What about The President of the Asian Studies in US? See her article "Reenvisioning the Qing", in Journal of Asian Studies, 1996. The Manchu rulers of China, wanted Chinese to accept their foreign rule, so they took on Chinese characteristics. And many Chinese collaborators (traitors) worked with the Manchu to exploit the Chinese people. But the Manchu never considered themsleves Chinese. They FEARED becoming Chinese. Thats one reason they supported Tibetan Buddhism. To keep Manchu seperate

[cnfjti3]

Ok, is there a quote in this particular journal that says that the Qing Dynasty was not a Chinese dynasty? If not, then you still have no argument.

[phagpa108]

"China" is an English word. The Manchu Empire was a ruler of China, and other territories. Did that make them "Chinese"? Romans ruled Greece, did that make them Greece? Manchu made it illegal for a Han to marry a Han. They made it illegal for a Han to go to Manchuria. The question Rawkawsi raises is "Was the Manchu Empire a Chinese STate" she, and many others say, no. It was a Manchu State, with Chinese, korean, Tibetan subjects. The Han saw themselves as 'Chinese', once they learned the word

[cnfjti3]

"A person of Han Chinese ancestry is often simply referred to as "Chinese" or "ethnic Chinese" in Western countries, though this usage is politically incorrect and sometimes derogatory when used to the exclusion of non-Han Chinese. This definition stems from a genealogical perspective. Note that some overseas Chinese may not necessarily identify with either the PRC or the ROC."

Straight from wiki, stop being conceited.

[phagpa108]

Ah CN-- No Wiki in the Manchu Imperial period. These "Chinese" state you keep refering to was created in 1911. No such "China" existed until the Han overthrew the Manchu Empire. Think. Did Manchu see themselves as Chinese? No. Nurahachi did not. Iits not a conciet, its history

[cnfjti3]

"The English name of China comes from the Qin Dynasty, possibly in a Sanskrit form; the pronunciation "China" came to the western languages through the Persian word چین "Chin". (see also: China in world languages)"

No, the term China was coined almost 2000 years before, and since then, it has represented "a cultural region, an ancient civilization, and a national or multinational entity in East Asia."

So yes, the Qing Dynasty considered themselves just as much Chinese as modern day PRC.

[phagpa108]

CN its interesting your persistence, curious, educational for me. But no, the Manchu rulers of China did not see themselves as Chinese. History proves this, but you won;t read it. Where are you going? You say you do not live in China, so you are living somewhere you are free to speak freely, to worship freely-- where you have political rights. All of which are denied to Tibetans. Tibetans have a belly full of resentment-- under colonial oppression. Do you care why they feel that?

[cnfjti3]

Because they moved out of China when PRC took over. Seriously, we do not even know the general consensus of Tibetans that currently live in China right now. The only people arguing for this impractical Tibetan independence are the Sinophobic Americans, the modern day equivalent hippies, and the Tibetans who moved out of China. And why would the Manchu rulers of China not see themselves Chinese? You are mixing the term Chinese and Han together, learn what they mean individually.

[phagpa108]

CN-- 90% of all Tibetans in exile want independence but will accept real autonomy, which CCP refuses to allow. CCP fears any democracy and autonomy in Tibet, because then Chinese would want same, and CCP would be out of power, quicker. Chinese want the world to accept their definition of what "Han" means of what "China" means, of what "Peaceful Liberation" means. It wont work. China must accept global definitions and become part of global unity. Right now CCP is leading China to war.

[cnfjti3]

Key phrase here, Tibetans in exile, they cannot make decisions for a region they abandoned.

"Right now CCP is leading China to war."

War??? Wow, you have no idea what the CPC is aiming for do you? I'm just going to go ahead and say you have no knowledge regarding the goals of the CPC at all, in fact, you confused me with you CCPs, what does that stand for again?

And by the way, my quote about the definition of China was found from wiki. So no, China is not inventing their own definition.

[LobsterHammerFoot]

You know what I'm Manchurian and I consider myself Chinese. This Phagpa asshole is clearly not even Asian He is a poser who thinks he knows all because we are brainwashed.

[cnfjti3]

"The PRC officially recognizes 56 distinct ethnic groups, the largest of which are the Han Chinese, who constitute about 91.9% of the total population.[82] Large ethnic minorities include the Zhuang (16 million), Manchu (10 million), Hui (9 million), Miao (8 million), Uyghur (7 million), Yi (7 million), Tujia (5.75 million), Mongols (5 million), Tibetans (5 million), Buyei (3 million), and Koreans (2 million).[83]"

Notice how it includes Mongols and Manchus.

[phagpa108]

CNfj-- Absolutely. Wiki and anyone with any sense recognizes that Tibetans are now part of China-- how could they not be since Tibet was conquered by China in 1950. Do Tibetans like that? No. Have they ever had a free election or referendum to confirm thats what they want? No. Why not? Because the CCP relies on its dictatorship to maintain itself in power. After all who would elect the largest mass murderer in human history to anything?

[cnfjti3]

Mao was never elected, but he did win through popularity with Chinese peasants during the civil war. Furthermore, you can't use the argument that the CCP is a dictatorship because it is not anymore: it is a one state party. Before you start accusing China of being dictatorial again, you might try to remember what it means to be a feudal theocracy. And what does this have to do with my post above?

[cnfjti3]

"Later successors never attempted to stake claim over the Khagan title and saw themselves as Emperor of China, as the Yuan Dynasty became another one of the long list of dynasties in the history of imperial China."

"During its reign, the Qing Dynasty became highly integrated with Chinese culture."

Wait, there's more.

[phagpa108]

CNF-- LOL: Yeah, Manchu became so Chinese. That's why when Mao cut off his Manchu Pigtail in 1911 (all Chinese forced to wear Manchu pigtail on Pain of Death from 1644..) he said he cut it off to " show freedom from Manchu oppression." Or have you not read Red Star over China? Manchu became Chinese? CHINESE in 1911 did not see Manchu as Chinese. They REVOLTED against "foreign rule". What, they dont teach Chinese history where you come from?

[cnfjti3]

Wow, did you read the other post? China incorporates 56 different ethnicities currently, being Manchu is the same as being Chinese.

[LobsterHammerFoot]

PHAGPA108 IS a Racist Seperatist. You are Racist and I dont believe your Chinese. And Dont bother calling yourself Taiwanese"(R.O.C.)".

[phagpa108]

Dear Lobster, What have you just shown readers here? That you like to name call-- Racist? Separatist? Get a life. Chinese need to grow up and deal with the world as it is. The Chinese nation cannot earn a modern government until we quit lying to ourselves about our past. Mongols invaded Tibet, and then China. Mongols conquests, from a thousand years ago are no reason for a Chinese state today to say it inherited ancient imperial borders. Or are Chinese racist and Imperialist? Colonialists?

[LobsterHammerFoot]

But would it be justifiable if ROC won and unified Tibet again with China? Wait what iF I seperate Yunnan from Manchukuo because they are so far apart and alien from each other? Oh wait didnt the Tibetans come running for our help back then when they were invaded and set up the Dalai Lama as head of region by quin emperor under our rule? You are a seperatist who uses big words with flawed logic and concept of Nation.

[dxkicker]

lol, i m not gonna argue the other stuff. but 1 thing. qing dynasty (manchus), are not han chinese, but they are chinese. qing dynasty is chinese empire for sure. i mean u can talk the shit u want. but in american history textbook, qing is chinese dynasty, and as for the rest of the world's view, qing is a chinese dynasty. every historian, history textbook agreed its a chinese dynasty. opium war, lead by britain again china(qing dynasty). instead of talking bullshit, read your textbook.

[phagpa108]

DXKicker. So sad to see Chinese so brainwashed they do not even know their own history. Manchu's FORBID all Chinese from EVER marrying a Chinese. Chinese were FORBID to enter Manchuria. Chinese were FORCED to wear a Manchu pigtail on pain of Death. This is why the Chinese leader Mao (heard of him?) cut off his pigtail in 1911 as an act of rebellion against the FOREIGN occupation of China by MANCHUS. The Manchu History of the Manchu Emprie (Chinese call Qing)was written with Manchu Alphabet.

[phagpa108]

dear DXKicker, NO the Qing/Manchu Empire was not "Chinese". The Qing was name of a Dynasty that ruled China, Mongolia and large parts of Asia. But the Qing were a non-Chinese people. Chinese fought Manchu occupation for centuries. Ever hear of Boxers? The Chinese hated Manchu for their colonial, imperialist, oppression of China. This is why the Chinese people rose up and threw the Manchu out of China. Just as the Mongols threw them out of Mongolia. And the Tibetans threw them out of Tibet.

[fhahahahaha]

I am Chinese Manchu and I don't agree with you.

[phagpa108]

Fha, if indeed you are Chinese, of Ethnic Manchu Descent, then you can read and write Manchu, Correct? Have you read the Secret History of the Manchus? Have you read what Manchus thought of the Chinese Milk Cow? Have you read what Nurahachi thought of the Chinese? Have you read why the Manchu built a FENCE and kept all Chinese out of Manchuria? Do you know the history of the Manchu people?

[fhahahahaha]

If you want a debate, don't brand anyone disagree with you as "brainwashed". Other than do that why don't you shut you door and enjoy your world.

[phagpa108]

Dear Brain Washed Fha.... Yeah, its a terrible word and I kept looking at it, thinking I should edit it out. But.. Shouldn't Chinese hear what the rest of the world thinks of them? Since the CCP has shut the door on the Chinese mind for 50 years now, and let the ignorance of their propaganda fester in your minds... What if no one ever tells you how twisted your view is? Remember Germans thought it was OK to invade Austria, because of Nazi Propaganda. Should we have been silent then?

[gamera3]

thank you. this is brilliant.