I love the praise dance. For those who don't want to have praise dance in church there are many other churches you can go to. How it is blasphemous and voodoo? There is not joking about beliefs. I believe that the dancers are worshiping the Lord in their hearts and bodies.
Psalm (149:3) Let them praise his name in dance: Let them sing praises to him with the tambourine and harp. What ever your background may be, when it's time to meet your creator I doubt if you'll be asked what your denomination is or complain about who was right or wrong. Psalms (117:1) O praise the Lord, all you nations:praise him, all ye people.
@pryorcm100 Don't even bother quoting Scripture to these morons, they worship man made tradition and think they have heaven made because of it. Let them wallow in their own ignorance and fanaticism. Its really no use, all they care about is bloody. morbid and somber rituals and man made traditions they attribute falsely to the apostles. Look at how judgmental and vile they are, Traditionalists are mentally unstable people
....wow!...so many dislikes...i don't understand???...why are you giving them such a hard time...explain please...with a real reason...you guys keep dancing for the Lord...cuz i don't know what some of these people saying to me...
I love this video and for all of you Catholics thatsay this isn't right and it's unGodly really shows others how strong your faith is and how judgmental you are. I attend catholic school and they do not push Catholicism on us but they are very open for any religion. They do not judge. Bretons has a way to praise God and dance singing an even pray are ways.
I recently began exploring the Catholic faith after years of atheism. I always thought the catholic church represented tradition, history, a sense of the sacred etc. I've always loved the idea of cathedrals, chanting, liturgy, and a feeling of connection to the past. If this video, and others I have seen is what the church is about now, then I guess I need to look elsewhere. I also notice that all the catholic churches in my area have extremely ugly architecture. It makes me extremely sad.
@bawright462 don't worry, we're making real progress kicking out the 60's and 70's schools of thought that corrupted many of our leaders. Pope Benedict is a big traditionalist, hence the new translation and him saying to put candles and a crucifix on the altar. My recommendation is to find a church run by the priestly fraternity of St. Peter or the institute of Christ the king sovereign priest, both do Traditional latin masses.
@mandaloreJCL Pope BenedictXVI is an EX NAZI and former head of the Inquisition, and he can go to HELL along wit hthe rest of you sanctimonious 'smells and bells" catholics. ALL man made tradition and hocus pocus, NONE of this nonsense was created by God.
Why is this allowed to contine? Where is the Cardinal? This is one liturgical abuse after another. Do your Voodoo dances in the church hall but not in the actual church. Danding has no place in the Western Latin Church. These people want to be Baptist. Let them be Baptist, but this is heretical.
This is not Catholic, it is heretical and Protestant. This church needs to be excommunicated. It is Baptist or evangelical but not Catholic, It is voodoo. Really shocking and sad.
the church has apostates all thru it. the time is neart for God's justice. and i gaurentee you. you will see the latin mass comeback! again head the wrning and do not be sucked into this false church inside the true catholic church. it is protistant and will be gone after the great chastisement. i tell you this from jesus directly. again you have not much time left and will be held accountable for teaching and spreading heresy. look at older encylicals to see the truth before it changed.
IT is clear church teaching that if your not in the body of christ-catholic church-you have no salvation. whether you like it or not. whether it is true in every case. that is the teaching. the only time its not true is in the case of ignorance. other than that your held resoponsible for deniying the truth. anyone who like this is taking part in a heresy the same heresy's that were in v2. th great chastizment is about to happen after the mirical for souls, and its happening bc everything is bad
the church teaches if your not in the body of christ (catholic church) u cannot be saved. there is everything wrong with protestants. this is protestant. and against church teaching.all u have to do is look at what cardinal burk just posted about sel-centered liturgy. your afool to think this is appropriate at mass-the sacrafice at calvery. i gaurentee mary and the apostles weren't dancing before the lord while he was hanging on the cross. and that's what mass is-sacrafice at calvery.enough said
The bitter miserable "traditionalists" in here mummify tradition and then want to impose it on everyone as 'the only" way .....unless its some Eurocentric mish mash of MAN MADE tradition anyway...then to them is not valid. All the smells and bells, the chapel veils, the Latin chants, the statues...the apostles had none of that nor did they start any of it....so your argument about this and about "tradition" is moot.
@assasincomedy What "secular music" ? and what is irreverent dancing? I see nothing irreverent or abusive here. Just because they are not mummifying tradition which are man made anyway and do it differently does not give you the right to judge it. It was offered to GOD. let God decide. God is much greater than the Roman Catholic Church.
@NativeNewYorkGuy Are you even Catholic? The Church tells us what we can or cannot do, because it is the mystical Body of Christ, and the Pope was given the authority by Christ himself. This is not reverence, it's putting yourself over God.
@assasincomedy Do you know for a fact that these people are 'putting themselves above God" or that I am or are you just making assumptions based on YOUR judgement? The Church does not hold God captive and its not above God. You have no authority nor the right to judge anyone's faith or relationship with God.
Are you even a Christian or do you worship mummified and outdated man made rituals and tradition? make up your mind.
@NativeNewYorkGuy The fact that they are changing the Holy Liturgy to suit their own interests IS the evidence that they are trying to place themselves above God. The Liturgy, when said according to the instructions, is the Highest form of Prayer a Man can offer to God. This is a liturgical abuse. I am taking it you are not even Catholic, so why do you even care?
@NativeNewYorkGuy i'm honestly surprised at you. God over country any day. Obama is an evil man, no doubt in my mind. he voted for partial birth abortions time after time.(look that up) i dare you to watch a video on it. u left the catholic church maybe bc u didn't feel you could live up to it. its intense no doubt. but makes you climb higher and your soul too. rather than bringing your faith down to accompany where your soul is already at. which is what all the people who left the church did.
@sofioagainstevlobama GOD is God but neither the Pope nor the ROMAN Catholic Church are God, to even imply it is BLASPHEMY! Ritual and tradition are not going to save you.
I left the Church because the MAN MADE dogmas and 'tradtions" make NO sense along with the morbid apparitions and other idiocy. The Church is losing many people , even 'Catholic" countries beginning to lose great numbers like Brazil , where protestants now predominate, i wonder why.
@NativeNewYorkGuy i never said the pope was God, and that would be blasphemy. secon u may be sick of my comments but u wrote to me remember. tradition is in the bible when jesus takes the bread and breaks it. and says"do this in remebrence of me"that is the mass we have. we do what he did. in memory of him like he asked! no other church does that. they just have worship praise 24/7 and don't take time to remember what he did for us on the cross. the most important thing is that he hung on that
cross for 3 hours!! that was our salvation dude! and u make it seam like its something we should forget. "he was only on it for 3 hours"-thats your quote man. his death was our salvation and u can't appreciate that.you do not want to remember that like we do at mass. wonder why? maybe it makes you feel bad. and u think its all about a feeling so u try to get the high= charismatic. well u need to rethink youself. most people who leave the church never understood it fully, otherwise the'd stay.
festivals of praise are a great thing. dance and raise your hands for the Lord then. i agree dance is a form of prayer and what not. but just not during the mass. the holy sacrifice. we have them at my catholic university all the time. but at mass were there to be contemplate on how the lord died for our sins and suffered. not rejoice over it. there's a time n place for every kind of praise, making it appropriate and respectfull.
and again, no one at the foot of the cross of jesus was dancing around waving their arms in the sky at him, while he died. they were in deep prayer and sorrow. -that my friend is why its nott apropriate at the mass. which is calvery. at your church... protestant, its fine. that honestly great that ur praising the lord in that way. but not at a catholic mass. it is against our teaching and is an example of how protestant we have become since v2. but that will all change soon.
Notitiae (Instructions for Sacraments and Divine Worship) Vol. 11, 1975 pp. 202-205 state,
The dance has never been made an integral part of the official worship of the Latin Church. If local churches have accepted the dance, sometimes even in the church building, that was on the occasion of feasts in order to manifest sentiments of joy and devotion. But that always took place outside of liturgical services." This is a liturgical abuse.again this church is in the wrong for this, against cathol
@NativeNewYorkGuythe church teaches if your not in the body of christ (catholic church) u cannot be saved. there is everything wrong with protestants. this is protestant. and against church teaching.all u have to do is look at what cardinal burk just posted about sel-centered liturgy. your afool to think this is appropriate at mass-the sacrafice at calvery. i gaurentee mary and the apostles weren't dancing before the lord while he was hanging on the cross. and that's what mass is-sacrafice!
"Let them praise HIS name with dancing..." Psalms 149:3
"Praise HIM with tambourine and dancing..." Psalms 150:4 There are many more references to dance in the Bible. Dance was an big part of the ancient Israelites life and was often used in worship and celebrations. 1 Corithians 6:20 says that we are to, "...glorify GOD in our body..." Liturgical dance is another way to do this. GOD bless...
Respond to this video... THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! for proving my point, it is because of fanatics like you that "enlightened" me on the mumbo jumbo of MAN MADE "canon law" and other "church teachings" some which amount to superstition that my family and I made the right decision to leave the ROMAN Catholic Church.
@sofioagainstevlobama BTW You hate President Obama, the President of the UNITED STATES but you claim loyalty to a foreign monarch of a sovereign state, you are not even faithful American if you claim loyalty to the corrupt and mundane Vatican State.
"And David danced before the LORD with all his might" 2 Samuel 6:14-23
"Let them praise HIS name with dancing..." Psalms 149:3
"Praise HIM with tambourine and dancing..." Psalms 150:4 There are many more references to dance in the Bible. Dance was an big part of the ancient Israelites life and was often used in worship and celebrations. 1 Corithians 6:20 says that we are to, "...glorify GOD in our body..." Liturgical dance is another way to do this. GOD bless...
@sofioagainstevlobama How do you know that? where you there? The Apostles also didn't chant in Latin and received Communion in the hand . The Apostles didn't live by mummified and outdated rituals and man man made tradition.
It seems like you all are more worried about not looking Protestant than genuine worship of God. The Catholic Church is supposed to be universal. That's what the original meaning of "catholic" means. You act like these praise dancers were bumping and grinding on top of the Altar. Not only is it narrow-minded and racist to bash an alternative, ethnic form of worship during th Mass, its unChrist-like. May I remind you all that Jesus didn't die for just traditionalist Catholics, He died for all!
@ieatbruins4bfast i'm sorry. yea catholic =universal-so that we all should be catholic. its a universal religion. ur not in the body of christ if u think you are. or in any way connected to the catholic church. if your not catholic. and jesus would say the opposite of what u did.
@ieatbruins4bfast Grow up you cultural cretin. If you can't see what's monstrous about this philistinian outrage you've no business being in the Catholic Church. Universality does not excuse sheer bad taste and leave the ludicrous racist slurs in the dustbin along with this aesthetic monstrosity.
This is pure Protestant evangelical post Novus Ordo bullcrap. It is not Catholic. It belongs on a stage perhaps at a church function but NOT at Mass. This is heretical and sad. Thank you, LIturgical abuse. The whole Catholic world finds this disgusting. Close this church down.
This is pure Protestant evangelical post Novus Ordo bullcrap. It is not Catholic. It belongs on a stage perhaps at a church function but NOT at Mass. This is heretical and sad. Thank you, LIturgical abuse. The whole Catholic world finds this disgusting. Close this church down.
Notitiae (Instructions for Sacraments and Divine Worship) Vol. 11, 1975 pp. 202-205 state,
“The dance has never been made an integral part of the official worship of the Latin Church. If local churches have accepted the dance, sometimes even in the church building, that was on the occasion of feasts in order to manifest sentiments of joy and devotion. But that always took place outside of liturgical services." This is a liturgical abuse.
Hi! I was born on a Roman Catholic Charismatic Renewal Parish nearly 40 years ago. When I had the age of those girls dancing in the video all my Sunday Masses were of this style and nobody complained against it. Why are so many complaints now? Another question: And what about to have a humble and as honest as possible live in the peace of the Lord? Oh, my god! It is so difficult! Good evening!
@nunagoras The reason is the reaction against liturgical abuses that grew within the Church after Vatican II. There is a large reaction against them and it is more prevalent among younger Catholics. We are seeing more and more young Catholics either desiring a more traditional OF or attending the EF, which is the older Roman Rite. It looks ridiculous, does not show the reverence that Mass should, and is more akin to something seen in a non-denomination church.
@farmer88 Of course for you people its all about TRADITION, you rant in here is all about and God forbid God is even considered, I mean GOD forbid! i don't care much for liturgical dance but I don't judge the faith , the love nor the sincere intention with which it was offered to God. If its not to your liking, fine and keep away from it. But how dare you judge? Do you worship God or dried up, boring and outdated MAN MADE "tradition" ?
Fellow trads: don't feed the comment troll. Instead, consider blocking him and marking his posts as spam (though, admittedly, most random spam I've seen is better informed). Remember: when you argue with people via YouTube comments, nobody wins!
@SouthAfricanPapist No its not an abuse, it is a form of expression, to give glory to God. Some express there worship of God though poems or solemn songs. In African and African-American communities, it is not uncommon for people to be more expressive about their joy than our Europeans and White counterparts. Neither is better than the other, its simply preference. Praising God is praising God, whether you do it by silently thanking Him or moving every muscle in your Body to show Him praise.
This is not praising God... This is a show and atlast the audience applaud for the dancers...Glory and applause to dancers.... I bet the audience is not applauding for God and for his glory
@assasincomedy BTW is there any Mass going on here? I doubt it because the candles are not even lit on the altar and there are no chalices or nothing else on the altar....so basically you are all spewing tradtionalist SHIT! "Liturgical dancing" is what they call this form of prayer to distinguish it from profane dancing...you are all a bunch of bitter fanatical IDIOTS!
@Kyle12141 Your exactly correct. When one has true faith, you do not adapt the liturgy to you. One who knows the religion, Knows the liturgy in its entirety and understands every part of it, as well as why.
@HRE29 That "wooden table piece of shit" is an Altar where the Eucharist is offered ...Jesus is just as present here as in any Mass. Your worship of 'tradition" has blinded you to what true Christianity is, pray that God may enlighten you and cleanse your soul of your bitter hatred. You are the one who should be terribly ashamed.
Its you and people like you that make me dislike those boring and dried up "Traditional" Masses.
@JewelBlueIbanez All your "canon law" and dogmas, doctrines and tradtions< ALL MAN MADE, what exactly does that shit do for you? how does it make you a better Christian?
@NativeNewYorkGuy All your made up theory and man-made interpretations. What exactly does cussing do for you? How do you take contemporary and modernism over sacred tradition dating back to Jesus himself.
@treeloop98 Exactly what ''sacred tradition dates back to Jesus Himself" ? Latin Mass? I don't think so, as Jesus nor any of the Apostles would even think of using the language of the heathen Romans.
A lot of the 'sacred traditions" sprung up during the Dark Ages. The Eucharist was celebrated here and Jesus was just as present here as in any Mass , traditional or otherwise. I've attended the Traditional Mass and for me as for millions, I find it boring & does nothing for me.
@NativeNewYorkGuy I If you were understanding you would know that Latin is the Church's language, Languages can not be evil for the fact it was just a language... in the same way you could say Greek is bad (used by Eastern Christians) or even Hebrew for they are used by a certain group of people who come to accept Christ. As for the extraordinary form of mass your boredom and inattentiveness shows that you don't know how to fully participate in prayer and silence without flashy dances and shows.
Spirit of Luther! Spirit of Wesley! Spirit of crazy Southern Baptist evangelicals! Not Catholic! Bastardization! Corruption! Not Catholic! Not Orthodox! Liberal heretics corrupt the Liturgy--with them, anything goes. This is not a church.
@MyBetty111 Good to know that there are such hateful and idiotic fucking hypocrits like you. The more we see them the more we know how to keep away from your 'tradition" and dried up, outdated rituals.
@MyBetty111 BUT its CHRISTIAN! : ) and that's all that matters, its not up to you to approve of it or not, get over yourself. Its offered to God with love and you have nothing to say about it.
Spirit of deception! God does not want a church contaminated with the wine of spiritual prostitution. The Lord seeks true worshipers, and to preach his word in a powerful way! Catholicism is still stuck on the pattern of lies, preached in Rome. Protestantism is true Christianity taught by Jesus!
I LOVE MY ROCK CHURCH FAMILY!! This weekend was incredible and these LLIM members brought teats to my eyes with their praise and worship. Wow, can't wait to come back for another visit. St. Alphonsus "Rock" Church truly a Godsend!
If you smell what the "The Rock" is cooking, you wouldn't like the stench.
THANK THE LORD that our Holy Father, Pope Benedict is making sure the Mass is done right all over-these renegade "liturgy planners" need to KNOW THEIR ROLES and SHUT THEIR MOUTHS.
@mburmy "Against his will" ....yeah, or "I was just following orders" I wonder how that would've flown at Nuremburg..... How come his predecessor was part of the Polish underground along with his father, as he was also ordained in secret, all these factors could've gotten him shot or sent to the concentration camps ...many of which were right on Polish soil......
The Congregation of the Doctrine of Faith is not more not less than the INQUISITION,
This is not a problem, but only a symptom of the problems in the Catholic Church. Liberalism and traditional Christianity do not mix, and only lead to a hybrid monster.
@Shiranui115 The worship of MAN MADE traditions is anything but Christian. Dried up and outdated rigid rituals are fine for some who get off on that but not for everyone.
Best not to judge and let GOD decide. You people need to accept the fact that you don't have any clout with God nor do you hold Him captive and dispense to people based on YOUR views.
@NativeNewYorkGuy Simply because I, along with every other ancient Christian tradition, believe worship should be beautiful and for the glory of God, you think it right to thrash me? Though Catholicism and Orthodoxy may have "man-made" traditions, these traditions have kept the Faith of the Apostles without stain, mutation, retraction or addition. I can see you've not experienced the reverence of such "dried up and outdated rigid rituals" in action. I would much rather attend (cont)
The Assumption has always been held in Orthodox tradition, ever since the 400's. The Immaculate Conception is a result of determining how exactly a woman could possibly bear God the Son, when touching the Ark of the Covenant has been known to be fatal, and when looking at God likely results in death.
Celibate clergy isn't any sort of tradition, it's a rule that Rome likes. That can be changed tomorrow; even now there are married priests.
@NativeNewYorkGuy Indulgences are certainly something that only Rome has. Since you bring it up, allow me to amend my statement: Orthodoxy has preserved the Apostolic Faith. Rome has changed it some, but not nearly as radically as have Protestants. Purgatory is taken from the concept of Hades (aka Sheol) but with some innovations; indulgences is one. And can you explain what Traditions were thought up between 1000 AD and Trent?
@Shiranui115 Replying to myself about indulgences... The basic idea of indulgences (e.g. doing something to redress for past sins) is sound and Scripturally-based, and similar to the Byzantine concept of Theosis which I can explain, but the nigh-on marketing of the concept of indulgences by the Roman Church has led to problems that Luther was right to call Rome out on. Indulgences are now provided for nearly everything, from Bible-reading to praying the Rosary to kissing a Brown Scapular.
@Shiranui115 Or crawling up the side of a rocky hill with bare knees to a shrine or the morbid cult of relics, some of quite dubious origin....all these excesses and vain distractions.
Liturgy is an external manifestation of what we believe in and feel within ourselves...
A Byzantine or Latin Liturgy is fine as is anything offered with love and sincerity to God.
You don't have to like it or agree with it, you just have no right to judge it.
@NativeNewYorkGuy I will agree with everything you've said except the first point. It's not a "morbid cult of relics" as you put it; it's no different than going to visit the gravesite of your grandparents or a beloved friend. We simply show respect for those who have gone before us in the faith, just as we show respect for those who have gone before us in our own families.
@Shiranui115 Visiting the grave of a beloved deceased friend or relative is proper and we do it with love and respect , the same with the grave of a saint ...but when they start taking the body apart and sending it to different places in reliquaries, or even some that are very dubious its when it gets morbid.
I've lived in Italy , the the Monte Sant'angelo sanctuary has a relic room with " a feather of St.Michael" and a vial ..get ready for this: the virgin's milk! there are many like that
I totally understand your initial aversion to the concept of relics or having fragments shipped all over the place. It's an ancient way to not only sanctify a church/monastery by placing it under the patronage or protection of a Saint(s), but it also hearkens back to the time when Christians literally had to pray in the catacombs among the bones of their brothers who had been martyred. We like continuity with our ancestors.
Respond to this video...I could careless for either Catholic or Orthodox liturgy...for those that enjoy it fine but I find NOTHING in them that fulfills me spiritually. Seems the Tradtionalists are analyzing how well the liturgy is being "practiced" as if it were some Operatic libretto.
A Protestant Praise worship, though not my thing, do acknowledge is still a sincerely offered act of reverence to God..again let God decide not you.
@NativeNewYorkGuy If you don't care for any of the worship services of any of the Christian bodies, then what do you attend? Or do you attend church at all? I'm simply curious; no antagonism involved.
@Shiranui115 To these people this form of worship is beautiful and who the hell are you, YOU to judge it ? You attack someone's way of worship and yours will get attacked right back, its that simple.
So if you rather attend an Orthodox liturgy then do so, you have a every right but don't go around judging what other people do, which is none of your business.
@NativeNewYorkGuy It may be acceptable in a Protestant church, but this sort of thing is strongly against Catholic teaching. I'm not attacking this sort of thing for what it is, but for the fact that it is upstaging the Church. It seems more focused on entertainment and less on prayer. It is through the liturgy that we learn and preserve our faith, and what does this sort of thing teach us? There is nothing wrong with dancing and anything else in this, but in church it is not proper.
@Shiranui115 To Traditionalists I've noticed "Church teaching" becomes like a yoke and plow on an ox. So detail oriented, the altar vestments need to be the "canonical" shade of purple for Lent or the right pause wasn't made during a recitation. .. Nothing here is "upstaging the church" do you see the people in the pews dancing in the aisles? or doing anything disorderly?
Again LET GOD DECIDE...He certainly doesn't need your help on that.
@NativeNewYorkGuy I will say that the scholasticism and legalism of the Latin West is a huge issue. The asceticism and mysticism of the East doesn't feel nearly as constricting, at least for me; we are simply content to concede that God is a mystery that we must meditate on. And I can never understand what the big deal is between vestments being exactly right (unless you have a symmetry OCD :P) or the right pauses being made, or the exact chanting style used, or the calendar being followed.
@Shiranui115 I had one neighbor who had the "Canon law" written in his head and he would even lecture the priests! Personally between dancing in church and Eastern mysticism, I would tend to lean toward the Eastern. I know one Greek Orthodox Church here in NYC (SS.Constantine & Helen's G.O. Church in Brooklyn) that is THE perfect church, its a picture Bible, when its empty and the recorded chants are going, its a very prayerful place.
@NativeNewYorkGuy LOL! That dude sounds really hardcore into it. I think it's quite telling that Roman Catholics (IDK about the Orthodox) actually have canon lawyers!
Ahh, yes. I love Byzantine chant. Or any style of chanting in the Byzantine Rite, from Russia down to Greece... :D It must be nice to have a really beautiful church with that sort of atmosphere. Must do wonders for relaxation and prayer. I just love it when the bells at my Byzantine Catholic parish start ringing. :D
@NativeNewYorkGuy Whats your gripe with traditionalists? If dancing is prohibited in the rubrics then its not allowed in ANY Catholic Church. Anybody doing otherwise is up for sanctions,your opinions notwithstanding. If we are disgusted by innovations it is our baptismal right to complain unlike an outsider like you. If you dont like faithful Catholics for telling it so then don't watch these channels. Better yet, find a church that accommodates your ideas. and dance your heart out with puppets.
@drupes You don't have to accept or like anything, beyond your canons and "teaching" YOU trads are judging other people's faith and even their relationship with God, how dare anyone!
You have a right to mind your own business too, I don't dance in any church and much less with puppets. However my entire family and I left the Roman Catholic church as have millions across the world and continue to do so. So blow it out your ass!
@NativeNewYorkGuy No, were not judging their faith, but we have a right to protest if what they are doing is WRONG, based on Scripture and Canons and Rubrics and the teachings of the Fathers, not our opinions or yours. Since you are an apostate (which makes you an outsider ) as well as your brood, like I've said, you have the right to complain as much as the next pagan or satanist. You are right in leaving, your foul mouth and mind does not make you a worthy human, much less a worthy Catholic.
@drupes Thanks for the compliment of being "an unworthy Catholic" Thank you so much for disassociating me from a pompous, arrogant, mundane, corrupt organization rife with superstition and sheer idiocy. Now go back to your "apparitions" revealed only to illiterate Portuguese peasants that were used to promote a political agenda, oh and yes enjoy your Latin mumblings too. Nice to celebrate in a dead PAGAN language .
@drupes SO why are you ranting on about Homosexuality? What does that have to do with the original argument here? you brought it up first, what is YOUR obsession with it? Apparently it is you who has repressed Homosexual tendencies and like so many use religion to hide from it and cover it up.
You can not agree, dislike or not approve of homosexuality but your obsession with it reveals your own homosexuality.
@NativeNewYorkGuy Thats funny, YOU were ranting about the sexual abuse scandal in the Church, I am trying to prove that 1. It was HOMOSEXUALS who committed these crimes and that LIBERALISM and MODERNISM in the Church ALLOWED these things to happen 2. That the Church from the beginning had SEVERELY PUNISHED homosexual activity by priests since you said abuses against children by clergy were rampant through the centuries.
@NativeNewYorkGuy 3. Since you called capital punishment for homosexual activity as "sick fuck" I showed you a Biblical reference that was followed by the Church for dealing with Clergy practicing pederasty. You've got amnesia boy? And since were on the topic of the "Original Argument" (how ironic, since you were the one who began bringing up other topics like food, crucifixions, Filipina women, Corazon Aquino, etc. etc. etc.) Heres THE question: IS DANCING PERMITTED IN THE LITURGY OR NOT?
@NativeNewYorkGuy "Is it allowed? YES it is ...you can see it here." I was hoping you'd answer that. No, just because the parish priest allowed it it doesn't makes it legal. I was talking about the RUBRICS. the GI RM (General Instruction on the Roman Missal) issued by the Vatican. If you look at the suggested videos on the right side of the screen, youll see Cardinal Arinze talking about dancing in the Liturgy.
@NativeNewYorkGuy "Apparently it is you who has repressed Homosexual tendencies and like so many use religion to hide from it and cover it up.You can not agree, dislike or not approve of homosexuality but your obsession with it reveals your own homosexuality." And were I to use that argument, can I say that you have REPRESSED TRADITIONALIST TENDENCIES? LMAO!!!
@drupes Please show me where it says that these BROTHERS & SISTERS were his ''elders" .....
What difference would it make it Jesus had BROTHERS AND SISTERS? How would Mary being a virgin or not all her life affect God's plan of salvation? Does it really matter? And why did these notions come up 4 & 5 centuries AFTER?
@NativeNewYorkGuy Still Awake? Dont you have a job or something? And didnt you read the post? The elders corrected the younger siblings. If Our Lord was eldest and here came his younger siblings admonishing him, that would have been shameful.
@NativeNewYorkGuy "How would Mary being a virgin or not all her life affect God's plan of salvation? Does it really matter? And why did these notions come up 4 & 5 centuries AFTER? " These notions didnt come cneturies after, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to know that by implicit declaration of Scripture and Tradition from the Early Christians, Mary was a Virgin all her life.
@NativeNewYorkGuy "The Talmud is no more perverted than the Canons. " The Talmud is perverted, you blasphemer. Does the Canon of Scripture say that Mary was a prostitute and that Jesus is now boiling in excrement in hell, as the Talmud does? Now you're showing your true colors, You're trying to discredit the Scriptures because you get a good ass-kicking everytime I counter your ideas with sound, irrefutable Biblical evidence.
@drupes What Biblical evidence pray tell is there for Mary's perpetual Virginity? Where does it say that? Where does it say that she was taken to Heaven ''body & soul" ? You have given no sound Biblical evidence.
Biblical evidence: Jesus had BOTHERS & SISTERS, He was a Jew and in Judaism ...his Jewish mother's perpetual virginity would make NO sense. ...even in the cultural and historical context.. This was a later notion to fill the Pagan Mother Goddess void
@NativeNewYorkGuy "You have given no sound Biblical evidence" Remember that the teachings of the Catholic Church are based on SCRIPTURE, TRADITION, AND MAGISTERIUM. All those three are equal. The Assumption and Perpetual Virginity of Mary is based on Tradition, what has been passed down from the Early Christians to this time. It does not contradict Scripture (as I have shown) neither does it contradict history. Why suddenly go "Biblical" when you question BIBLICAL teachings against DIVORCE?
@NativeNewYorkGuy "Jewish mother's perpetual virginity would make NO sense" Yes it would if you were looking for a Messiah who was born of a Virgin, as Isaiah's prophecy proclaims
@NativeNewYorkGuy "This was a later notion to fill the Pagan Mother Goddess void " Since you claim that the Virgin Mary in the Catholic Church is modeled after pagan goddesses, show me the pagan goddess that the Madonna was modeled after.
@drupes Diana,Athena,Minerva,and especially Hathor(a virgin mother herself who carried messages to the chief god , Ra.). But the Roman virgin goddessess are easiest to see since the Church just scratched the names off the temples and still bowed and worshipped under the same statues.See the Parthanon.I know the sophisms but a man bowing in front of a statue of Mary, saying one of the hundreds of Marian Prayers, asking for favors Mary in heaven isn't in the Bible.Or just Jeremiah 7/18.
@xxxAtomAnt In order for you to have some credibility kindly provide me with a sanctuary in Rome that has the image of the old pagan goddesses in them being used for liturgical ceremonies, as you claim. Otherwise, you are A LIAR, plain and simple.
@drupes I did , it is called the Parthanon.Or under the Holy Roman Empire, it became for about 250 years a Roman Catholic church.They refurbished and remove sone of the statuary , but not all.There are other examples but who would believe a liar like me just because history backs me up.
@xxxAtomAnt But not all? Who were these pagan gods that were left? Care to name them? Whats your source? Any photos? It should be obvious I'm testing you because your answers leave much to be desired. Remember: NO PROOF, YOU'RE A LIAR.
@drupes You won't believe it so look it up yourself , it is usless to argue with you. They removed the male ones to make it a church of Mary. Does it truly make a difference which statues where renamed . The facts are in history books. You won't believe it even if you look it up.In Rome they just renamed different male ones for different saints. If you say history books on religion lie , then so be it . But you can't deny these Pagen shrines became Holy Roman Empire Churches.Statues and all
@xxxAtomAnt I have been down this road before, if I point you to a particular history book or passage you'll just say they are Catholic bashing or tools of Satan. If you can look it up yourself you might have a chance at seeing the truth.
@drupes In Southern Italy were the cult of Isis was introduced from Egypt and had a strong following, is where the cult of La Madonna is strongest. Aphrodite the sea goddess O.L. of the sea.....In Palestrina outside of Rome where pilgrims sought oracles from the goddess Fortuna..on its foundation is the sanctuary of O.L. of Good Counsel where people go to do exactly that. To the Greeks Poseidon is now St.Nicholas ..there is proof just seek and ye shall find.
@xxxAtomAnt Of course I know the Pantheon and the Parthenon and I know my Art, History and Religion. But your idea that the statues of the pagan gods were used for the Liturgy is ABSURD. Most were despoiled or destroyed, in the case of the Parthenon some friezes were reinterpreted into Christian themes, and the Elgin Marbles, being outside of the building were left alone, but obviously not for the sake preservation. This unoriginal "mother goddess into Mother Mary" idea of yours is plain silly.
@drupes The pagan gods were not destroyed just repackaged and renamed, have you ever noticed or taken care to notice all the parallels Mary the mother of Jesus today shares with the pagan Mother Goddesses? Some Roman icons of the Egyptian goddess Isis cult which was strong in Italy are indistinguishable from icons of Mary.....Even Artemis was repackaged and suddenly..."Mary spent her last days in Ephesus" there is no proof of this whatsoever .
Respond to this video... I have lived in Southern Italy and the pagan cults never really died out, they were absorbed and repackaged as ''Christianity" .....Even the Greek Orthodox still hold on to many pagan rituals that have been 'Christianized" ...the cult of statues and "Miraculous statues etc came directly from paganism.
@drupes And in Rome the Pantheon, became a Catholic Church and consecrated it to Sancta Maria ad Martyres, now known as Santa Maria dei Martiri.In case The Holy Roman Empire taking on the Greek Parthanon isn't enough .
@drupes Go to the town of Palestrina...the ancients came from all over the Empire to seek an oracle from the goddess Fortuna if they needed to make a decision or some great change......Today pilgrims come from all over Italy and other parts of Europe to the sanctuary of La Madonna del Buon Consiglio...O.L. of Good Counsel to a sanctuary built on the very foundation of the old temple and the church itself is built from the actual stones of the demolished temple..I've been there ...
@NativeNewYorkGuy SO WHAT? As Christianity spread the old temples were destroyed, and Churches built on their sites (in many cases with its tituli or title corresponding to the aspect of the pagan site being replaced) so that the old religion would be forgotten and its rites discontinued. MANY Churches are built on the ruins of old temples and sites sacred to pagan religions. Tough luck for the demons being worshipped there. Try harder mister racist.
@drupes What 'demons' were being worshiped there..you mean the one who got their names changed and then "christianized" ? Mary was turned into a GODDESS ...the "Queen of heaven and earth" and the perpetual virginity, the cult that has sprung up around her are nothing more than disguised pagan practices. Now how am I a racist? its you in here who are racists.
@NativeNewYorkGuy Sorry for the late reply, I was busy trying to earn an honest living. I don't have the luxury of some who spend day after day trolling on the net while living off welfare from their "first world country". Anyway my answer is this: You claim that the cult of the Saints and the Madonna is rooted in pagan worship, then show me solid proof. Not your opinions or some crank "theologian" (both aint worth much). Papal Decrees. Conciliar Documents. Official Church "stuff". The like. GL
@NativeNewYorkGuy "[Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History 3:11] "After the martyrdom of James and the conquest of Jerusalem which immediately followed, it is said that those of the apostles and the disciples of the Lord that were still living came together from all directions, with those that were related to the Lord according to the flesh (for the majority of them also were still alive), to take counsel as to who was worthy to succeed James. " (next post)
@NativeNewYorkGuy "They all with once consent pronounced Symeon, the Son of Cleopas, of whom the Gospel also makes mention [note the Gospels only list Symeon as one of the Brother's of the Lord], to be worthy of the episcopal throne of that parish. He was a cousin, as they say, of the Savior. For Hegesippus records that Cleopas was a brother of Joseph." (next post)
@NativeNewYorkGuy Now this Hegesippus " was a 2nd Century Palestinian Jew. Eusebius preserves one of the few fragments left of his works, since he had access to the great library of Ceasarea and of Alexandria—the contents of which were mostly lost later." (postcript)
@drupes Yes, I know and James was the HEAD of the Church in Jerusalem......before Peter even went to Rome......the first Bishop of Rome by the first Bishop of Rome was Linus not Peter......Symeon aka Simon , Shimon in Aramaic was Jesus' brother .....the writing preserved by Eusebius do NOTHING to prove Mary's perpetual virginity or Jesus not having siblings does it?
@NativeNewYorkGuy "Symeon aka Simon , Shimon in Aramaic was Jesus' brother ..." Now, who would I believe, you (a pagan) or St. Heggesipus who KNEW St. Simeon (as well as the Lord's other kinsmen) and who was quoted by Eusebius from his (St. Hegessipus') now-lost writing as saying that St. Simeon was the Lord's COUSIN? You easily discard Eusebius and other witnesses (like ST. Jerome and the Bible) when they don't fit your rotten ideas.
@NativeNewYorkGuy "James was the HEAD of the Church in Jerusalem..." As Bishop of the local church, yes. As visible head of the Church, NO. "In Matthew 10:2 Peter is described as the "first Apostle". It is important to note that Peter was neither the first Apostle in age nor election; therefore, Peter must be the first Apostle in the sense of authority"
@NativeNewYorkGuy "I left the Roman Catholic church as have millions across the world and continue to do so" If the ones who are leaving the Church are persons who think being christian is being a law unto themselves and do what they want and say, "only God can judge me" like you, then good riddance! Better have a small faithful flock than a bunch of rebels.
@drupes Good to break away from a mundane organization and its corrupted Christianity in all aspects. Do you realize exactly how much Ancient Roman PAGANISM was absorbed and repackaged by the Roman Church? Millions have left and continue to do so when they discover what the Roman Church is all about. Well if you don't believe that only God can judge you but the Church can and will determine where you go, then you are an idolater and blasphemer.
Kyrie eleison
MrSojeft 1 week ago
I love the praise dance. For those who don't want to have praise dance in church there are many other churches you can go to. How it is blasphemous and voodoo? There is not joking about beliefs. I believe that the dancers are worshiping the Lord in their hearts and bodies.
yonemitsu1 1 month ago
Psalm (149:3) Let them praise his name in dance: Let them sing praises to him with the tambourine and harp. What ever your background may be, when it's time to meet your creator I doubt if you'll be asked what your denomination is or complain about who was right or wrong. Psalms (117:1) O praise the Lord, all you nations:praise him, all ye people.
pryorcm100 1 month ago
@pryorcm100 Don't even bother quoting Scripture to these morons, they worship man made tradition and think they have heaven made because of it. Let them wallow in their own ignorance and fanaticism. Its really no use, all they care about is bloody. morbid and somber rituals and man made traditions they attribute falsely to the apostles. Look at how judgmental and vile they are, Traditionalists are mentally unstable people
NativeNewYorkGuy 2 weeks ago
....wow!...so many dislikes...i don't understand???...why are you giving them such a hard time...explain please...with a real reason...you guys keep dancing for the Lord...cuz i don't know what some of these people saying to me...
dandyshandy16 1 month ago
Great jobs ladies and gentlemen on this dance. I saw it was heart felt. For all of you who want to know I am baptist.
mds11606 1 month ago
I love this video and for all of you Catholics thatsay this isn't right and it's unGodly really shows others how strong your faith is and how judgmental you are. I attend catholic school and they do not push Catholicism on us but they are very open for any religion. They do not judge. Bretons has a way to praise God and dance singing an even pray are ways.
mds11606 1 month ago
I recently began exploring the Catholic faith after years of atheism. I always thought the catholic church represented tradition, history, a sense of the sacred etc. I've always loved the idea of cathedrals, chanting, liturgy, and a feeling of connection to the past. If this video, and others I have seen is what the church is about now, then I guess I need to look elsewhere. I also notice that all the catholic churches in my area have extremely ugly architecture. It makes me extremely sad.
bawright462 1 month ago
@bawright462 don't worry, we're making real progress kicking out the 60's and 70's schools of thought that corrupted many of our leaders. Pope Benedict is a big traditionalist, hence the new translation and him saying to put candles and a crucifix on the altar. My recommendation is to find a church run by the priestly fraternity of St. Peter or the institute of Christ the king sovereign priest, both do Traditional latin masses.
mandaloreJCL 1 month ago
@mandaloreJCL Pope BenedictXVI is an EX NAZI and former head of the Inquisition, and he can go to HELL along wit hthe rest of you sanctimonious 'smells and bells" catholics. ALL man made tradition and hocus pocus, NONE of this nonsense was created by God.
NativeNewYorkGuy 2 weeks ago
@bawright462 So what are you looking for God? or Architecture, smells and bells?
NativeNewYorkGuy 2 weeks ago
This is a show, like an MTV commercial. It is not Catholic worship. It is heretical and the parish should be disbanded.
MyBetty111 2 months ago
@MyBetty111 And you Betty dear need to get some. When people like you get no dick...they get crazy like you.
NativeNewYorkGuy 2 weeks ago
THis is just so shocking and so riddled with liturgical abuse.
MyBetty111 2 months ago
Why is this allowed to contine? Where is the Cardinal? This is one liturgical abuse after another. Do your Voodoo dances in the church hall but not in the actual church. Danding has no place in the Western Latin Church. These people want to be Baptist. Let them be Baptist, but this is heretical.
MyBetty111 2 months ago
This is not Catholic, it is heretical and Protestant. This church needs to be excommunicated. It is Baptist or evangelical but not Catholic, It is voodoo. Really shocking and sad.
MyBetty111 2 months ago
i am not in sspx. the pope reighns, but the church is infested. everything is NOT OK! you will see more earthquakes, this is not normal.
sofioagainstevlobama 2 months ago
the church has apostates all thru it. the time is neart for God's justice. and i gaurentee you. you will see the latin mass comeback! again head the wrning and do not be sucked into this false church inside the true catholic church. it is protistant and will be gone after the great chastisement. i tell you this from jesus directly. again you have not much time left and will be held accountable for teaching and spreading heresy. look at older encylicals to see the truth before it changed.
sofioagainstevlobama 2 months ago
IT is clear church teaching that if your not in the body of christ-catholic church-you have no salvation. whether you like it or not. whether it is true in every case. that is the teaching. the only time its not true is in the case of ignorance. other than that your held resoponsible for deniying the truth. anyone who like this is taking part in a heresy the same heresy's that were in v2. th great chastizment is about to happen after the mirical for souls, and its happening bc everything is bad
sofioagainstevlobama 2 months ago
the church teaches if your not in the body of christ (catholic church) u cannot be saved. there is everything wrong with protestants. this is protestant. and against church teaching.all u have to do is look at what cardinal burk just posted about sel-centered liturgy. your afool to think this is appropriate at mass-the sacrafice at calvery. i gaurentee mary and the apostles weren't dancing before the lord while he was hanging on the cross. and that's what mass is-sacrafice at calvery.enough said
sofioagainstevlobama 2 months ago
Why O Lord do you allow such suffering in the world?
magalahi02 2 months ago
Why he dislikes? Liturgical dancing is awesome!
beanielandschool 3 months ago
This is just blasphemy. When I see this I actually get sympathetic with the SSPX and their cause.
sagautrek 3 months ago in playlist EPISCOPAL/ ANGLO-CATHOLIC MASSES 5
The bitter miserable "traditionalists" in here mummify tradition and then want to impose it on everyone as 'the only" way .....unless its some Eurocentric mish mash of MAN MADE tradition anyway...then to them is not valid. All the smells and bells, the chapel veils, the Latin chants, the statues...the apostles had none of that nor did they start any of it....so your argument about this and about "tradition" is moot.
NativeNewYorkGuy 3 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy Playing secular music while irreverently dancing in the Sanctuary is an ABUSE.
assasincomedy 2 months ago
@assasincomedy What "secular music" ? and what is irreverent dancing? I see nothing irreverent or abusive here. Just because they are not mummifying tradition which are man made anyway and do it differently does not give you the right to judge it. It was offered to GOD. let God decide. God is much greater than the Roman Catholic Church.
NativeNewYorkGuy 2 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy Are you even Catholic? The Church tells us what we can or cannot do, because it is the mystical Body of Christ, and the Pope was given the authority by Christ himself. This is not reverence, it's putting yourself over God.
assasincomedy 2 months ago
@assasincomedy Do you know for a fact that these people are 'putting themselves above God" or that I am or are you just making assumptions based on YOUR judgement? The Church does not hold God captive and its not above God. You have no authority nor the right to judge anyone's faith or relationship with God.
Are you even a Christian or do you worship mummified and outdated man made rituals and tradition? make up your mind.
NativeNewYorkGuy 2 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy The fact that they are changing the Holy Liturgy to suit their own interests IS the evidence that they are trying to place themselves above God. The Liturgy, when said according to the instructions, is the Highest form of Prayer a Man can offer to God. This is a liturgical abuse. I am taking it you are not even Catholic, so why do you even care?
assasincomedy 2 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy i'm honestly surprised at you. God over country any day. Obama is an evil man, no doubt in my mind. he voted for partial birth abortions time after time.(look that up) i dare you to watch a video on it. u left the catholic church maybe bc u didn't feel you could live up to it. its intense no doubt. but makes you climb higher and your soul too. rather than bringing your faith down to accompany where your soul is already at. which is what all the people who left the church did.
sofioagainstevlobama 2 months ago
@sofioagainstevlobama GOD is God but neither the Pope nor the ROMAN Catholic Church are God, to even imply it is BLASPHEMY! Ritual and tradition are not going to save you.
I left the Church because the MAN MADE dogmas and 'tradtions" make NO sense along with the morbid apparitions and other idiocy. The Church is losing many people , even 'Catholic" countries beginning to lose great numbers like Brazil , where protestants now predominate, i wonder why.
NativeNewYorkGuy 2 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy i never said the pope was God, and that would be blasphemy. secon u may be sick of my comments but u wrote to me remember. tradition is in the bible when jesus takes the bread and breaks it. and says"do this in remebrence of me"that is the mass we have. we do what he did. in memory of him like he asked! no other church does that. they just have worship praise 24/7 and don't take time to remember what he did for us on the cross. the most important thing is that he hung on that
sofioagainstevlobama 2 months ago
cross for 3 hours!! that was our salvation dude! and u make it seam like its something we should forget. "he was only on it for 3 hours"-thats your quote man. his death was our salvation and u can't appreciate that.you do not want to remember that like we do at mass. wonder why? maybe it makes you feel bad. and u think its all about a feeling so u try to get the high= charismatic. well u need to rethink youself. most people who leave the church never understood it fully, otherwise the'd stay.
sofioagainstevlobama 2 months ago
festivals of praise are a great thing. dance and raise your hands for the Lord then. i agree dance is a form of prayer and what not. but just not during the mass. the holy sacrifice. we have them at my catholic university all the time. but at mass were there to be contemplate on how the lord died for our sins and suffered. not rejoice over it. there's a time n place for every kind of praise, making it appropriate and respectfull.
sofioagainstevlobama 2 months ago
and again, no one at the foot of the cross of jesus was dancing around waving their arms in the sky at him, while he died. they were in deep prayer and sorrow. -that my friend is why its nott apropriate at the mass. which is calvery. at your church... protestant, its fine. that honestly great that ur praising the lord in that way. but not at a catholic mass. it is against our teaching and is an example of how protestant we have become since v2. but that will all change soon.
sofioagainstevlobama 2 months ago
@sofioagainstevlobama why do you keep nailing Jesus back to the cross? He only hung on the cross for 3 hours! He ROSE again....HELLO!
The smells, bells, "tradition" are not going to save your soul.
Tell me please what 'tradtion" other than Communion and Baptism did Jesus give ?
When Constantine invented the ROMAN Catholic Church a lot of paganism was 'sanctified" by the church , enough of the senseless rantings already!
NativeNewYorkGuy 2 months ago
me too, lol
sofioagainstevlobama 2 months ago
Notitiae (Instructions for Sacraments and Divine Worship) Vol. 11, 1975 pp. 202-205 state,
The dance has never been made an integral part of the official worship of the Latin Church. If local churches have accepted the dance, sometimes even in the church building, that was on the occasion of feasts in order to manifest sentiments of joy and devotion. But that always took place outside of liturgical services." This is a liturgical abuse.again this church is in the wrong for this, against cathol
sofioagainstevlobama 2 months ago
Catholic church
rudge1982 4 months ago
I would expect to see this at protestant church, not aCatholic
rudge1982 4 months ago
@rudge1982 Nothing wrong with Protestants
NativeNewYorkGuy 3 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuythe church teaches if your not in the body of christ (catholic church) u cannot be saved. there is everything wrong with protestants. this is protestant. and against church teaching.all u have to do is look at what cardinal burk just posted about sel-centered liturgy. your afool to think this is appropriate at mass-the sacrafice at calvery. i gaurentee mary and the apostles weren't dancing before the lord while he was hanging on the cross. and that's what mass is-sacrafice!
sofioagainstevlobama 2 months ago
@sofioagainstevlobama "And David danced before the LORD with all his might" 2 Samuel 6:14-23
"Let them praise HIS name with dancing..." Psalms 149:3
"Praise HIM with tambourine and dancing..." Psalms 150:4 There are many more references to dance in the Bible. Dance was an big part of the ancient Israelites life and was often used in worship and celebrations. 1 Corithians 6:20 says that we are to, "...glorify GOD in our body..." Liturgical dance is another way to do this. GOD bless...
NativeNewYorkGuy 2 months ago
Respond to this video... THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! for proving my point, it is because of fanatics like you that "enlightened" me on the mumbo jumbo of MAN MADE "canon law" and other "church teachings" some which amount to superstition that my family and I made the right decision to leave the ROMAN Catholic Church.
NativeNewYorkGuy 2 months ago
@sofioagainstevlobama BTW You hate President Obama, the President of the UNITED STATES but you claim loyalty to a foreign monarch of a sovereign state, you are not even faithful American if you claim loyalty to the corrupt and mundane Vatican State.
NativeNewYorkGuy 2 months ago
Comment removed
treeloop98 4 months ago
"And David danced before the LORD with all his might" 2 Samuel 6:14-23
"Let them praise HIS name with dancing..." Psalms 149:3
"Praise HIM with tambourine and dancing..." Psalms 150:4 There are many more references to dance in the Bible. Dance was an big part of the ancient Israelites life and was often used in worship and celebrations. 1 Corithians 6:20 says that we are to, "...glorify GOD in our body..." Liturgical dance is another way to do this. GOD bless...
itiahart 4 months ago
@itiahart david didn't dance like this at mass!! the apostles didn't dance at the last supper!!
sofioagainstevlobama 3 months ago
@sofioagainstevlobama How do you know that? where you there? The Apostles also didn't chant in Latin and received Communion in the hand . The Apostles didn't live by mummified and outdated rituals and man man made tradition.
NativeNewYorkGuy 2 months ago
@sofioagainstevlobama When did David go to Mass? That says it all! Keep moving. FYI David did dance before the sanctuary.
NativeNewYorkGuy 2 months ago
i'm sorry, but i think this is beautiful. it's beautiful to see the old building and the new praise. god is with us today. let's give him praise.
saintben2008 5 months ago
Even a kid, at the 0:06 started crying... You should consider your true beliefs
Disturbed1457 6 months ago
how dare you?
MrSagagothic 6 months ago
It seems like you all are more worried about not looking Protestant than genuine worship of God. The Catholic Church is supposed to be universal. That's what the original meaning of "catholic" means. You act like these praise dancers were bumping and grinding on top of the Altar. Not only is it narrow-minded and racist to bash an alternative, ethnic form of worship during th Mass, its unChrist-like. May I remind you all that Jesus didn't die for just traditionalist Catholics, He died for all!
ieatbruins4bfast 6 months ago 5
@ieatbruins4bfast i'm sorry. yea catholic =universal-so that we all should be catholic. its a universal religion. ur not in the body of christ if u think you are. or in any way connected to the catholic church. if your not catholic. and jesus would say the opposite of what u did.
sofioagainstevlobama 2 months ago
@ieatbruins4bfast Grow up you cultural cretin. If you can't see what's monstrous about this philistinian outrage you've no business being in the Catholic Church. Universality does not excuse sheer bad taste and leave the ludicrous racist slurs in the dustbin along with this aesthetic monstrosity.
andyyyp2 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
This is pure Protestant evangelical post Novus Ordo bullcrap. It is not Catholic. It belongs on a stage perhaps at a church function but NOT at Mass. This is heretical and sad. Thank you, LIturgical abuse. The whole Catholic world finds this disgusting. Close this church down.
MyBetty111 6 months ago
This is pure Protestant evangelical post Novus Ordo bullcrap. It is not Catholic. It belongs on a stage perhaps at a church function but NOT at Mass. This is heretical and sad. Thank you, LIturgical abuse. The whole Catholic world finds this disgusting. Close this church down.
MyBetty111 6 months ago
@MyBetty111 The TRUE Christians both Catholic and Protestant find YOU and people like you disgusting!
NativeNewYorkGuy 5 months ago
Notitiae (Instructions for Sacraments and Divine Worship) Vol. 11, 1975 pp. 202-205 state,
“The dance has never been made an integral part of the official worship of the Latin Church. If local churches have accepted the dance, sometimes even in the church building, that was on the occasion of feasts in order to manifest sentiments of joy and devotion. But that always took place outside of liturgical services." This is a liturgical abuse.
jeremyLLdc 7 months ago
Fame! I'm gonna live forever. I'm gonna learn how to fly...
alexeykh 7 months ago
Hi! I was born on a Roman Catholic Charismatic Renewal Parish nearly 40 years ago. When I had the age of those girls dancing in the video all my Sunday Masses were of this style and nobody complained against it. Why are so many complaints now? Another question: And what about to have a humble and as honest as possible live in the peace of the Lord? Oh, my god! It is so difficult! Good evening!
nunagoras 7 months ago
@nunagoras The reason is the reaction against liturgical abuses that grew within the Church after Vatican II. There is a large reaction against them and it is more prevalent among younger Catholics. We are seeing more and more young Catholics either desiring a more traditional OF or attending the EF, which is the older Roman Rite. It looks ridiculous, does not show the reverence that Mass should, and is more akin to something seen in a non-denomination church.
farmer88 6 months ago
@farmer88 Of course for you people its all about TRADITION, you rant in here is all about and God forbid God is even considered, I mean GOD forbid! i don't care much for liturgical dance but I don't judge the faith , the love nor the sincere intention with which it was offered to God. If its not to your liking, fine and keep away from it. But how dare you judge? Do you worship God or dried up, boring and outdated MAN MADE "tradition" ?
NativeNewYorkGuy 6 months ago
@farmer88 Show me exactly what is 'irreverent" about it.....All I see is worship being manifested to GOD in a dance. Let God decide and stop judging.
NativeNewYorkGuy 3 months ago
inside a church?!?
henrikhankhagnell 7 months ago 9
Fellow trads: don't feed the comment troll. Instead, consider blocking him and marking his posts as spam (though, admittedly, most random spam I've seen is better informed). Remember: when you argue with people via YouTube comments, nobody wins!
HRE29 8 months ago 2
Liturgical dancing is an ABUSE. Stop doing this!
SouthAfricanPapist 8 months ago 14
@SouthAfricanPapist No its not an abuse, it is a form of expression, to give glory to God. Some express there worship of God though poems or solemn songs. In African and African-American communities, it is not uncommon for people to be more expressive about their joy than our Europeans and White counterparts. Neither is better than the other, its simply preference. Praising God is praising God, whether you do it by silently thanking Him or moving every muscle in your Body to show Him praise.
ieatbruins4bfast 7 months ago
@ieatbruins4bfast
This is not praising God... This is a show and atlast the audience applaud for the dancers...Glory and applause to dancers.... I bet the audience is not applauding for God and for his glory
lionel3fernandez 7 months ago
@lionel3fernandez You bet but you are not sure. So kindly be quiet already.
NativeNewYorkGuy 3 months ago
@ieatbruins4bfast According to the G.I.R.M of the Mass, this is a liturgical abuse.
assasincomedy 6 months ago
@assasincomedy BTW is there any Mass going on here? I doubt it because the candles are not even lit on the altar and there are no chalices or nothing else on the altar....so basically you are all spewing tradtionalist SHIT! "Liturgical dancing" is what they call this form of prayer to distinguish it from profane dancing...you are all a bunch of bitter fanatical IDIOTS!
NativeNewYorkGuy 5 months ago
@SouthAfricanPapist Yes. You are absolutely correct. Long live Catholic tradition.
nelsonvandyk 3 months ago
@SouthAfricanPapist Priests seducing young boys and teenagers ..sucking them off and then blackmailing them into silence is Abuse.
NativeNewYorkGuy 3 months ago
YUK
frpetermark 8 months ago
WHAT. IN. GOD'S. NAME. IS. THIS?
brndurham 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@brndurham then you do not watch
jacx800 8 months ago
If people celebrate mass in a solemn, respectful way, there is no need to change it or add new things like this to make it more "fun".
Kyle12141 8 months ago
@Kyle12141 this appeals to the younger people, Where have you been?
jacx800 8 months ago
@Kyle12141 Your exactly correct. When one has true faith, you do not adapt the liturgy to you. One who knows the religion, Knows the liturgy in its entirety and understands every part of it, as well as why.
Jm4steam 7 months ago
And they contort their bodies in front of the high altar... itself neglected for that wooden "table" piece of shit... such a terrible shame...
HRE29 8 months ago
@HRE29 That "wooden table piece of shit" is an Altar where the Eucharist is offered ...Jesus is just as present here as in any Mass. Your worship of 'tradition" has blinded you to what true Christianity is, pray that God may enlighten you and cleanse your soul of your bitter hatred. You are the one who should be terribly ashamed.
Its you and people like you that make me dislike those boring and dried up "Traditional" Masses.
NativeNewYorkGuy 8 months ago
Reason #574366863 For Summorum Pontificum
This is a disgrace.
JewelBlueIbanez 8 months ago
@JewelBlueIbanez All your "canon law" and dogmas, doctrines and tradtions< ALL MAN MADE, what exactly does that shit do for you? how does it make you a better Christian?
NativeNewYorkGuy 8 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy All your made up theory and man-made interpretations. What exactly does cussing do for you? How do you take contemporary and modernism over sacred tradition dating back to Jesus himself.
treeloop98 8 months ago
@treeloop98 Exactly what ''sacred tradition dates back to Jesus Himself" ? Latin Mass? I don't think so, as Jesus nor any of the Apostles would even think of using the language of the heathen Romans.
A lot of the 'sacred traditions" sprung up during the Dark Ages. The Eucharist was celebrated here and Jesus was just as present here as in any Mass , traditional or otherwise. I've attended the Traditional Mass and for me as for millions, I find it boring & does nothing for me.
NativeNewYorkGuy 8 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy I If you were understanding you would know that Latin is the Church's language, Languages can not be evil for the fact it was just a language... in the same way you could say Greek is bad (used by Eastern Christians) or even Hebrew for they are used by a certain group of people who come to accept Christ. As for the extraordinary form of mass your boredom and inattentiveness shows that you don't know how to fully participate in prayer and silence without flashy dances and shows.
treeloop98 8 months ago
tHE HORROR....THE HORROR... the Novus Ordo Seclorum....
ixtoc999 8 months ago
Spirit of Luther! Spirit of Wesley! Spirit of crazy Southern Baptist evangelicals! Not Catholic! Bastardization! Corruption! Not Catholic! Not Orthodox! Liberal heretics corrupt the Liturgy--with them, anything goes. This is not a church.
MyBetty111 9 months ago 2
So positively evangelical Protestant and NON Catholic. A disgrace. This is NOT a Mass it is a MESS. Protestant!
MyBetty111 9 months ago
@MyBetty111 Good to know that there are such hateful and idiotic fucking hypocrits like you. The more we see them the more we know how to keep away from your 'tradition" and dried up, outdated rituals.
NativeNewYorkGuy 8 months ago
@MyBetty111 BUT its CHRISTIAN! : ) and that's all that matters, its not up to you to approve of it or not, get over yourself. Its offered to God with love and you have nothing to say about it.
NativeNewYorkGuy 8 months ago
Spirit of deception! God does not want a church contaminated with the wine of spiritual prostitution. The Lord seeks true worshipers, and to preach his word in a powerful way! Catholicism is still stuck on the pattern of lies, preached in Rome. Protestantism is true Christianity taught by Jesus!
MineirissimoBH 9 months ago
I LOVE MY ROCK CHURCH FAMILY!! This weekend was incredible and these LLIM members brought teats to my eyes with their praise and worship. Wow, can't wait to come back for another visit. St. Alphonsus "Rock" Church truly a Godsend!
Charisses1905 9 months ago
If you smell what the "The Rock" is cooking, you wouldn't like the stench.
THANK THE LORD that our Holy Father, Pope Benedict is making sure the Mass is done right all over-these renegade "liturgy planners" need to KNOW THEIR ROLES and SHUT THEIR MOUTHS.
mburmy 10 months ago
@mburmy The Traditionalist misfits are a discontented pathetic lot, why are you people so miserable?
Your religion is so bloody and morbid...maybe thats why.
You should stick to your smells and bells, know your role and kindly SHUT THE FUCK UP already.
NativeNewYorkGuy 10 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy Well, the Pope's on our side, so...
mburmy 10 months ago
@mburmy good to know that an Ex Nazi and the former head of the dept. of the Inquisition is on your side. Burst with pride!
NativeNewYorkGuy 10 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy
1). He was forced to join the Hitler Youth AGAINST HIS WILL...it was either that, or he'd get thrown in one of the concentration camps himself.
2). It's the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith...keeping it safe from bigots like you!
mburmy 10 months ago
@mburmy "Against his will" ....yeah, or "I was just following orders" I wonder how that would've flown at Nuremburg..... How come his predecessor was part of the Polish underground along with his father, as he was also ordained in secret, all these factors could've gotten him shot or sent to the concentration camps ...many of which were right on Polish soil......
The Congregation of the Doctrine of Faith is not more not less than the INQUISITION,
NativeNewYorkGuy 10 months ago
I am fairly liberal as Catholic and go to a good parish but I have never seen dancing at mass, it does look odd and out of place...
emmyjo720 10 months ago
I dont think they are celebrating the Holy Mass.
Skyethur 11 months ago
This is not a problem, but only a symptom of the problems in the Catholic Church. Liberalism and traditional Christianity do not mix, and only lead to a hybrid monster.
Shiranui115 11 months ago
@Shiranui115 The worship of MAN MADE traditions is anything but Christian. Dried up and outdated rigid rituals are fine for some who get off on that but not for everyone.
Best not to judge and let GOD decide. You people need to accept the fact that you don't have any clout with God nor do you hold Him captive and dispense to people based on YOUR views.
NativeNewYorkGuy 10 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy Simply because I, along with every other ancient Christian tradition, believe worship should be beautiful and for the glory of God, you think it right to thrash me? Though Catholicism and Orthodoxy may have "man-made" traditions, these traditions have kept the Faith of the Apostles without stain, mutation, retraction or addition. I can see you've not experienced the reverence of such "dried up and outdated rigid rituals" in action. I would much rather attend (cont)
Shiranui115 10 months ago
@Shiranui115 Of course Jesus preached in Latin and and the apostles granted indulgences.
We also know how the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption came directly from the apostles.
As also celibate clergy and Purgatory, all apostolic,
Many of the Traditions are not that ancient, seems that a lot was thought up between 1000-1500 AD and then remix at the council of Trent.
I have quite a lot of experience with both Traditional Catholic and Orthodox liturgy.,
NativeNewYorkGuy 10 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy Of course Jesus did not preach in Latin.
The Assumption has always been held in Orthodox tradition, ever since the 400's. The Immaculate Conception is a result of determining how exactly a woman could possibly bear God the Son, when touching the Ark of the Covenant has been known to be fatal, and when looking at God likely results in death.
Celibate clergy isn't any sort of tradition, it's a rule that Rome likes. That can be changed tomorrow; even now there are married priests.
Shiranui115 10 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy Indulgences are certainly something that only Rome has. Since you bring it up, allow me to amend my statement: Orthodoxy has preserved the Apostolic Faith. Rome has changed it some, but not nearly as radically as have Protestants. Purgatory is taken from the concept of Hades (aka Sheol) but with some innovations; indulgences is one. And can you explain what Traditions were thought up between 1000 AD and Trent?
Shiranui115 10 months ago
@Shiranui115 Replying to myself about indulgences... The basic idea of indulgences (e.g. doing something to redress for past sins) is sound and Scripturally-based, and similar to the Byzantine concept of Theosis which I can explain, but the nigh-on marketing of the concept of indulgences by the Roman Church has led to problems that Luther was right to call Rome out on. Indulgences are now provided for nearly everything, from Bible-reading to praying the Rosary to kissing a Brown Scapular.
Shiranui115 10 months ago
@Shiranui115 Or crawling up the side of a rocky hill with bare knees to a shrine or the morbid cult of relics, some of quite dubious origin....all these excesses and vain distractions.
Liturgy is an external manifestation of what we believe in and feel within ourselves...
A Byzantine or Latin Liturgy is fine as is anything offered with love and sincerity to God.
You don't have to like it or agree with it, you just have no right to judge it.
NativeNewYorkGuy 10 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy I will agree with everything you've said except the first point. It's not a "morbid cult of relics" as you put it; it's no different than going to visit the gravesite of your grandparents or a beloved friend. We simply show respect for those who have gone before us in the faith, just as we show respect for those who have gone before us in our own families.
Shiranui115 10 months ago
@Shiranui115 Visiting the grave of a beloved deceased friend or relative is proper and we do it with love and respect , the same with the grave of a saint ...but when they start taking the body apart and sending it to different places in reliquaries, or even some that are very dubious its when it gets morbid.
I've lived in Italy , the the Monte Sant'angelo sanctuary has a relic room with " a feather of St.Michael" and a vial ..get ready for this: the virgin's milk! there are many like that
NativeNewYorkGuy 10 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy The last several made me LOL! xDDD
I totally understand your initial aversion to the concept of relics or having fragments shipped all over the place. It's an ancient way to not only sanctify a church/monastery by placing it under the patronage or protection of a Saint(s), but it also hearkens back to the time when Christians literally had to pray in the catacombs among the bones of their brothers who had been martyred. We like continuity with our ancestors.
Shiranui115 10 months ago
Respond to this video...I could careless for either Catholic or Orthodox liturgy...for those that enjoy it fine but I find NOTHING in them that fulfills me spiritually. Seems the Tradtionalists are analyzing how well the liturgy is being "practiced" as if it were some Operatic libretto.
A Protestant Praise worship, though not my thing, do acknowledge is still a sincerely offered act of reverence to God..again let God decide not you.
NativeNewYorkGuy 10 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy If you don't care for any of the worship services of any of the Christian bodies, then what do you attend? Or do you attend church at all? I'm simply curious; no antagonism involved.
Shiranui115 10 months ago
@Shiranui115 To these people this form of worship is beautiful and who the hell are you, YOU to judge it ? You attack someone's way of worship and yours will get attacked right back, its that simple.
So if you rather attend an Orthodox liturgy then do so, you have a every right but don't go around judging what other people do, which is none of your business.
NativeNewYorkGuy 10 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy It may be acceptable in a Protestant church, but this sort of thing is strongly against Catholic teaching. I'm not attacking this sort of thing for what it is, but for the fact that it is upstaging the Church. It seems more focused on entertainment and less on prayer. It is through the liturgy that we learn and preserve our faith, and what does this sort of thing teach us? There is nothing wrong with dancing and anything else in this, but in church it is not proper.
Shiranui115 10 months ago
@Shiranui115 To Traditionalists I've noticed "Church teaching" becomes like a yoke and plow on an ox. So detail oriented, the altar vestments need to be the "canonical" shade of purple for Lent or the right pause wasn't made during a recitation. .. Nothing here is "upstaging the church" do you see the people in the pews dancing in the aisles? or doing anything disorderly?
Again LET GOD DECIDE...He certainly doesn't need your help on that.
NativeNewYorkGuy 10 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy I will say that the scholasticism and legalism of the Latin West is a huge issue. The asceticism and mysticism of the East doesn't feel nearly as constricting, at least for me; we are simply content to concede that God is a mystery that we must meditate on. And I can never understand what the big deal is between vestments being exactly right (unless you have a symmetry OCD :P) or the right pauses being made, or the exact chanting style used, or the calendar being followed.
Shiranui115 10 months ago
@Shiranui115 I had one neighbor who had the "Canon law" written in his head and he would even lecture the priests! Personally between dancing in church and Eastern mysticism, I would tend to lean toward the Eastern. I know one Greek Orthodox Church here in NYC (SS.Constantine & Helen's G.O. Church in Brooklyn) that is THE perfect church, its a picture Bible, when its empty and the recorded chants are going, its a very prayerful place.
NativeNewYorkGuy 10 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy LOL! That dude sounds really hardcore into it. I think it's quite telling that Roman Catholics (IDK about the Orthodox) actually have canon lawyers!
Ahh, yes. I love Byzantine chant. Or any style of chanting in the Byzantine Rite, from Russia down to Greece... :D It must be nice to have a really beautiful church with that sort of atmosphere. Must do wonders for relaxation and prayer. I just love it when the bells at my Byzantine Catholic parish start ringing. :D
Shiranui115 10 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy Whats your gripe with traditionalists? If dancing is prohibited in the rubrics then its not allowed in ANY Catholic Church. Anybody doing otherwise is up for sanctions,your opinions notwithstanding. If we are disgusted by innovations it is our baptismal right to complain unlike an outsider like you. If you dont like faithful Catholics for telling it so then don't watch these channels. Better yet, find a church that accommodates your ideas. and dance your heart out with puppets.
drupes 10 months ago
@drupes You don't have to accept or like anything, beyond your canons and "teaching" YOU trads are judging other people's faith and even their relationship with God, how dare anyone!
You have a right to mind your own business too, I don't dance in any church and much less with puppets. However my entire family and I left the Roman Catholic church as have millions across the world and continue to do so. So blow it out your ass!
NativeNewYorkGuy 10 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy No, were not judging their faith, but we have a right to protest if what they are doing is WRONG, based on Scripture and Canons and Rubrics and the teachings of the Fathers, not our opinions or yours. Since you are an apostate (which makes you an outsider ) as well as your brood, like I've said, you have the right to complain as much as the next pagan or satanist. You are right in leaving, your foul mouth and mind does not make you a worthy human, much less a worthy Catholic.
drupes 10 months ago
@drupes Thanks for the compliment of being "an unworthy Catholic" Thank you so much for disassociating me from a pompous, arrogant, mundane, corrupt organization rife with superstition and sheer idiocy. Now go back to your "apparitions" revealed only to illiterate Portuguese peasants that were used to promote a political agenda, oh and yes enjoy your Latin mumblings too. Nice to celebrate in a dead PAGAN language .
NativeNewYorkGuy 10 months ago
@drupes SO why are you ranting on about Homosexuality? What does that have to do with the original argument here? you brought it up first, what is YOUR obsession with it? Apparently it is you who has repressed Homosexual tendencies and like so many use religion to hide from it and cover it up.
You can not agree, dislike or not approve of homosexuality but your obsession with it reveals your own homosexuality.
NativeNewYorkGuy 10 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy Thats funny, YOU were ranting about the sexual abuse scandal in the Church, I am trying to prove that 1. It was HOMOSEXUALS who committed these crimes and that LIBERALISM and MODERNISM in the Church ALLOWED these things to happen 2. That the Church from the beginning had SEVERELY PUNISHED homosexual activity by priests since you said abuses against children by clergy were rampant through the centuries.
drupes 10 months ago
@drupes REALLY? So priestly sex abuse would get them hung by the balls from a tree? Celibacy has NEVER worked, it is not even scriptural
NativeNewYorkGuy 10 months ago
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drupes 9 months ago
@drupes YOU are the one who brought the homosexuality issue and you have an obsession to cover up YOUR OWN LATENT HOMOSEXUAL TENDENCIES.
NativeNewYorkGuy 10 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy 3. Since you called capital punishment for homosexual activity as "sick fuck" I showed you a Biblical reference that was followed by the Church for dealing with Clergy practicing pederasty. You've got amnesia boy? And since were on the topic of the "Original Argument" (how ironic, since you were the one who began bringing up other topics like food, crucifixions, Filipina women, Corazon Aquino, etc. etc. etc.) Heres THE question: IS DANCING PERMITTED IN THE LITURGY OR NOT?
drupes 10 months ago
@drupes Is it allowed? YES it is ...you can see it here. if you have a problem with it then tough shit END OF STORY!
NativeNewYorkGuy 10 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy "Is it allowed? YES it is ...you can see it here." I was hoping you'd answer that. No, just because the parish priest allowed it it doesn't makes it legal. I was talking about the RUBRICS. the GI RM (General Instruction on the Roman Missal) issued by the Vatican. If you look at the suggested videos on the right side of the screen, youll see Cardinal Arinze talking about dancing in the Liturgy.
drupes 9 months ago
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drupes 10 months ago
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drupes 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@NativeNewYorkGuy "Apparently it is you who has repressed Homosexual tendencies and like so many use religion to hide from it and cover it up.You can not agree, dislike or not approve of homosexuality but your obsession with it reveals your own homosexuality." And were I to use that argument, can I say that you have REPRESSED TRADITIONALIST TENDENCIES? LMAO!!!
drupes 10 months ago
@drupes Please show me where it says that these BROTHERS & SISTERS were his ''elders" .....
What difference would it make it Jesus had BROTHERS AND SISTERS? How would Mary being a virgin or not all her life affect God's plan of salvation? Does it really matter? And why did these notions come up 4 & 5 centuries AFTER?
NativeNewYorkGuy 9 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy Still Awake? Dont you have a job or something? And didnt you read the post? The elders corrected the younger siblings. If Our Lord was eldest and here came his younger siblings admonishing him, that would have been shameful.
drupes 9 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy "How would Mary being a virgin or not all her life affect God's plan of salvation? Does it really matter? And why did these notions come up 4 & 5 centuries AFTER? " These notions didnt come cneturies after, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to know that by implicit declaration of Scripture and Tradition from the Early Christians, Mary was a Virgin all her life.
drupes 9 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy "The Talmud is no more perverted than the Canons. " The Talmud is perverted, you blasphemer. Does the Canon of Scripture say that Mary was a prostitute and that Jesus is now boiling in excrement in hell, as the Talmud does? Now you're showing your true colors, You're trying to discredit the Scriptures because you get a good ass-kicking everytime I counter your ideas with sound, irrefutable Biblical evidence.
drupes 9 months ago
@drupes What Biblical evidence pray tell is there for Mary's perpetual Virginity? Where does it say that? Where does it say that she was taken to Heaven ''body & soul" ? You have given no sound Biblical evidence.
Biblical evidence: Jesus had BOTHERS & SISTERS, He was a Jew and in Judaism ...his Jewish mother's perpetual virginity would make NO sense. ...even in the cultural and historical context.. This was a later notion to fill the Pagan Mother Goddess void
NativeNewYorkGuy 9 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy "You have given no sound Biblical evidence" Remember that the teachings of the Catholic Church are based on SCRIPTURE, TRADITION, AND MAGISTERIUM. All those three are equal. The Assumption and Perpetual Virginity of Mary is based on Tradition, what has been passed down from the Early Christians to this time. It does not contradict Scripture (as I have shown) neither does it contradict history. Why suddenly go "Biblical" when you question BIBLICAL teachings against DIVORCE?
drupes 9 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy "Jewish mother's perpetual virginity would make NO sense" Yes it would if you were looking for a Messiah who was born of a Virgin, as Isaiah's prophecy proclaims
drupes 9 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy "This was a later notion to fill the Pagan Mother Goddess void " Since you claim that the Virgin Mary in the Catholic Church is modeled after pagan goddesses, show me the pagan goddess that the Madonna was modeled after.
drupes 9 months ago
@drupes Diana,Athena,Minerva,and especially Hathor(a virgin mother herself who carried messages to the chief god , Ra.). But the Roman virgin goddessess are easiest to see since the Church just scratched the names off the temples and still bowed and worshipped under the same statues.See the Parthanon.I know the sophisms but a man bowing in front of a statue of Mary, saying one of the hundreds of Marian Prayers, asking for favors Mary in heaven isn't in the Bible.Or just Jeremiah 7/18.
xxxAtomAnt 6 months ago
@xxxAtomAnt In order for you to have some credibility kindly provide me with a sanctuary in Rome that has the image of the old pagan goddesses in them being used for liturgical ceremonies, as you claim. Otherwise, you are A LIAR, plain and simple.
drupes 6 months ago
@drupes I did , it is called the Parthanon.Or under the Holy Roman Empire, it became for about 250 years a Roman Catholic church.They refurbished and remove sone of the statuary , but not all.There are other examples but who would believe a liar like me just because history backs me up.
xxxAtomAnt 6 months ago
@xxxAtomAnt But not all? Who were these pagan gods that were left? Care to name them? Whats your source? Any photos? It should be obvious I'm testing you because your answers leave much to be desired. Remember: NO PROOF, YOU'RE A LIAR.
drupes 6 months ago
@drupes You won't believe it so look it up yourself , it is usless to argue with you. They removed the male ones to make it a church of Mary. Does it truly make a difference which statues where renamed . The facts are in history books. You won't believe it even if you look it up.In Rome they just renamed different male ones for different saints. If you say history books on religion lie , then so be it . But you can't deny these Pagen shrines became Holy Roman Empire Churches.Statues and all
xxxAtomAnt 6 months ago
@xxxAtomAnt I have been down this road before, if I point you to a particular history book or passage you'll just say they are Catholic bashing or tools of Satan. If you can look it up yourself you might have a chance at seeing the truth.
xxxAtomAnt 6 months ago
@drupes In Southern Italy were the cult of Isis was introduced from Egypt and had a strong following, is where the cult of La Madonna is strongest. Aphrodite the sea goddess O.L. of the sea.....In Palestrina outside of Rome where pilgrims sought oracles from the goddess Fortuna..on its foundation is the sanctuary of O.L. of Good Counsel where people go to do exactly that. To the Greeks Poseidon is now St.Nicholas ..there is proof just seek and ye shall find.
NativeNewYorkGuy 5 months ago
@xxxAtomAnt Of course I know the Pantheon and the Parthenon and I know my Art, History and Religion. But your idea that the statues of the pagan gods were used for the Liturgy is ABSURD. Most were despoiled or destroyed, in the case of the Parthenon some friezes were reinterpreted into Christian themes, and the Elgin Marbles, being outside of the building were left alone, but obviously not for the sake preservation. This unoriginal "mother goddess into Mother Mary" idea of yours is plain silly.
drupes 6 months ago
@drupes The pagan gods were not destroyed just repackaged and renamed, have you ever noticed or taken care to notice all the parallels Mary the mother of Jesus today shares with the pagan Mother Goddesses? Some Roman icons of the Egyptian goddess Isis cult which was strong in Italy are indistinguishable from icons of Mary.....Even Artemis was repackaged and suddenly..."Mary spent her last days in Ephesus" there is no proof of this whatsoever .
NativeNewYorkGuy 5 months ago
Respond to this video... I have lived in Southern Italy and the pagan cults never really died out, they were absorbed and repackaged as ''Christianity" .....Even the Greek Orthodox still hold on to many pagan rituals that have been 'Christianized" ...the cult of statues and "Miraculous statues etc came directly from paganism.
NativeNewYorkGuy 5 months ago
@drupes And in Rome the Pantheon, became a Catholic Church and consecrated it to Sancta Maria ad Martyres, now known as Santa Maria dei Martiri.In case The Holy Roman Empire taking on the Greek Parthanon isn't enough .
xxxAtomAnt 6 months ago
@drupes Go to the town of Palestrina...the ancients came from all over the Empire to seek an oracle from the goddess Fortuna if they needed to make a decision or some great change......Today pilgrims come from all over Italy and other parts of Europe to the sanctuary of La Madonna del Buon Consiglio...O.L. of Good Counsel to a sanctuary built on the very foundation of the old temple and the church itself is built from the actual stones of the demolished temple..I've been there ...
NativeNewYorkGuy 5 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy SO WHAT? As Christianity spread the old temples were destroyed, and Churches built on their sites (in many cases with its tituli or title corresponding to the aspect of the pagan site being replaced) so that the old religion would be forgotten and its rites discontinued. MANY Churches are built on the ruins of old temples and sites sacred to pagan religions. Tough luck for the demons being worshipped there. Try harder mister racist.
drupes 5 months ago
@drupes What 'demons' were being worshiped there..you mean the one who got their names changed and then "christianized" ? Mary was turned into a GODDESS ...the "Queen of heaven and earth" and the perpetual virginity, the cult that has sprung up around her are nothing more than disguised pagan practices. Now how am I a racist? its you in here who are racists.
NativeNewYorkGuy 5 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy Sorry for the late reply, I was busy trying to earn an honest living. I don't have the luxury of some who spend day after day trolling on the net while living off welfare from their "first world country". Anyway my answer is this: You claim that the cult of the Saints and the Madonna is rooted in pagan worship, then show me solid proof. Not your opinions or some crank "theologian" (both aint worth much). Papal Decrees. Conciliar Documents. Official Church "stuff". The like. GL
drupes 4 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy "[Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History 3:11] "After the martyrdom of James and the conquest of Jerusalem which immediately followed, it is said that those of the apostles and the disciples of the Lord that were still living came together from all directions, with those that were related to the Lord according to the flesh (for the majority of them also were still alive), to take counsel as to who was worthy to succeed James. " (next post)
drupes 9 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy "They all with once consent pronounced Symeon, the Son of Cleopas, of whom the Gospel also makes mention [note the Gospels only list Symeon as one of the Brother's of the Lord], to be worthy of the episcopal throne of that parish. He was a cousin, as they say, of the Savior. For Hegesippus records that Cleopas was a brother of Joseph." (next post)
drupes 9 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy Now this Hegesippus " was a 2nd Century Palestinian Jew. Eusebius preserves one of the few fragments left of his works, since he had access to the great library of Ceasarea and of Alexandria—the contents of which were mostly lost later." (postcript)
drupes 9 months ago
@drupes Yes, I know and James was the HEAD of the Church in Jerusalem......before Peter even went to Rome......the first Bishop of Rome by the first Bishop of Rome was Linus not Peter......Symeon aka Simon , Shimon in Aramaic was Jesus' brother .....the writing preserved by Eusebius do NOTHING to prove Mary's perpetual virginity or Jesus not having siblings does it?
NativeNewYorkGuy 9 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy "Symeon aka Simon , Shimon in Aramaic was Jesus' brother ..." Now, who would I believe, you (a pagan) or St. Heggesipus who KNEW St. Simeon (as well as the Lord's other kinsmen) and who was quoted by Eusebius from his (St. Hegessipus') now-lost writing as saying that St. Simeon was the Lord's COUSIN? You easily discard Eusebius and other witnesses (like ST. Jerome and the Bible) when they don't fit your rotten ideas.
drupes 9 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy "James was the HEAD of the Church in Jerusalem..." As Bishop of the local church, yes. As visible head of the Church, NO. "In Matthew 10:2 Peter is described as the "first Apostle". It is important to note that Peter was neither the first Apostle in age nor election; therefore, Peter must be the first Apostle in the sense of authority"
drupes 9 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy "I left the Roman Catholic church as have millions across the world and continue to do so" If the ones who are leaving the Church are persons who think being christian is being a law unto themselves and do what they want and say, "only God can judge me" like you, then good riddance! Better have a small faithful flock than a bunch of rebels.
drupes 10 months ago
@drupes Good to break away from a mundane organization and its corrupted Christianity in all aspects. Do you realize exactly how much Ancient Roman PAGANISM was absorbed and repackaged by the Roman Church? Millions have left and continue to do so when they discover what the Roman Church is all about. Well if you don't believe that only God can judge you but the Church can and will determine where you go, then you are an idolater and blasphemer.
NativeNewYorkGuy 10 months ago