Book of Mormon, Archaeology & Metals Part 5

[77papercranes]

As much as i would like to say this was insightful i cannot. Having spent a better part of my life volunteering at dig sites throughout North America, I would like to draw attention to this: Archaeology, is tactile. It is physical, and 'true' A term the LDS tend to use freely. True. Yea? Saying this, although your knowledge of text seems to be worthy of note, None of said texts even begin to draw a physical or true tie to accounts in the book of Mormon.

[anisuthideyakoindu]

don't forget to also dig into germanic language

what is the word steel staal Stahl stal

saying?

I guess it says: 'very hard'(like to (with)stand, to stay firm)

it doesn't even say iron yser ijzer eisen

let alone carbonized iron

so

it says

"hardened"

[fudley2003]

I have heard this argument before. It's moot. I'm not saying the BoM narrative refers to carbonized iron as we know it today.

Change "steel" to hardened bronze or copper (Hebrew translation from the KJV) and the same problems exist...No evidence.... Unless of course you are trying to tell me that Nephi's bow and the Sword of Laban are not made from metal, but some kind of hardened wood or stone????. Please also consider the Jaradite narative, Ether 7:9. It's pretty clear.

[fudley2003]

The big problem with the Book of Mormon and metallurgy is not just what was produced in the narative (swords, tilling blades, machines, javelins, etc) but what Jarom and Nephi say things were made from....steel.

[hopeforyourlife]

Only a Mormon would ask "WHY would the remaining living people after the wars simply leave all those weapons laying around?"

You can't be serious.

In a war involving thousands. In muddy fields. You can't possibly imagine a scenario where pieces of weapons would be trampled into the mud and be concealed for very long periods?

In Britain, the Romans left literally tons of evidence behind.

They're still digging stuff up.

No wonder real archaeologists don't take Mormon seriously.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

Define "real archaeologists." I am just curious about your definition.

[GodLovedJosephSmith]

spell maka whittle pls.

[chadandbarby]

4:05 of the video is great. it looks like you do not believe your own words....because you know what that verse says. you know in the next verse it says they worked iron and steel.

[glycoboy]

but seriously, he explains he belief of steel at 7:25... the book is the word of God

[veracities]

At the time of the massive final battles which resulted in Nephite annihilation(400AD), the Maya were slap in the middle of their early classic period (200-600AD), a time for them of relative stability. That means their culture didn't collapse until some 800 years after the demise of the BOM peoples! Not much similarity there then in timeline.

So what exactly did the mythical BOM peoples have in common with the Maya? The LGT was devised by Mormon academics 'cos they had nowhere else to go!

[TheBackyardProfessor]

John E Clark, a Mesoamerican archaeologist has shown this outdated view is not longer as viable as the newer dated one which shows different than you present here. I shall get that made into a video just for your good questions, and nice way of asking. Thanks for your civility. Video coming up shortly just for you my friend!

[veracities]

But what of the findings of such archaeologists as Cynthia Robin, whose quote appears below (Jan, 2008). She is non LDS, not a Mormon critic, just a searcher after the truth. The Maya timeline is well established.

[glycoboy]

well there were still large numbers of people around... just not the strict followers of christ... same kinda thing as in the dark ages after the apostles died, the believers were persecuted and killed. also remember that truth and proofs and writings on their temples etc could've change completely when an evil person came into power... this sort of thing happened all the time with new pharaohs; the leader would destroy all relics and drawings making room for their newer false beliefs.

[veracities]

There had been "large numbers of people around" for millennia.

None of them had ever heard of Christ until the Spanish arrived in the 16th century. They were polytheists whose religion demanded human sacrifice.

Sound like Christianity to you?

[veracities]

If you want to find the latest info' on Maya history and culture, you must go directly to today's archaeologists.

"Although the ancient Maya (1000BC to 1200AD) had no metal tools, wheeled vehicles or beasts of burden, they created one of the most intellectually and artistically sophisticated civilizations ever known" - Associate Professor Cynthia Robin; Jan, 2008

BTW In common with other civilisations of MesoAmerica, the Maya were into human sacrifice. Still sound like your BOM people?

[veracities]

But surely if, as it says, they've got advanced materials like copper, iron and steel from which they make tools and weapons of war. Why would you even suggest that they would use wood? Just doesn't make sense. You seem to be stretching credulity somewhat?

BTW Isn't a sword a weapon of war?

[TheBackyardProfessor]

No. This is precisely the modern thinking we do, which we think the ancients also OUGHT TO HAVE THOUGHT, yet they DIDN'T. The archaeologists have said they had access to metal and did NOT use it for practical purposes, rather for decorative, among other things. Some civilizations IGNORED the metals not thinking they were better! The ancients do not think like we do folks.

[veracities]

On the contrary Professor, people back then thought very much the same way. Take the Hittites for example of the area now known as Turkey. Widely acknowledged as the discoverers of the first crude steelmaking process back in 1400BC.

They immediately saw the weapons potential for this new material and used it to devastating effect to achieve military domination of that region. They maintained their rule by keeping the process secret for 400yrs.

Then as now military needs drove innovation.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

The Hittites were not the Mesoamericans. Some ancient folks used the materials for war, others used it for decoration, and others ignored metals all together. Not everyone thought alike, nor like we do.

[veracities]

No Prof, back in BOM times, the Mesoamericans only had access to gold, silver & copper. While the physical properties of these naturally occurring metals made them ideal for decorative work, they were totally unsuitable for use as tools or weaponry.

Put simply, they had no metal tools because they had no suitable metals like iron or steel.

Metallurgy was slow to arrive in Mesoamerica. Even as late as the 16th century, the Spanish noted the total lack of any iron or steelmaking knowledge.

[skyaglow]

ok I was wrong,

I did some research and found out iron oxides and iron are two totally different elements!

I will be the first to admit I was wrong about iron oxide.

But, I do know regardless of what "the world" says about the birth of iron smelters, the Lord very easily could have led Nephi to ores, the right ores to builds those swords of protection.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

FARMS sent an expedition to the Khor Kharfot region on the coast of Saudi Arabia, where the best candidate for Bountiful is, and they have a photo of one of them holding a magnet in their hand, with covering of iron ore all over the magnet! It's definitely there, right where Nephi said it was. Fascinating isn't it al?

[skyaglow]

hmm concerning ( iron ore ) That is very interesting, maybe I didnt miss the mark as far as I thought I had.

thank you professor for that update.

very interesting !!

[skyaglow]

To me there's a very logicl explanation for it

Their swords and weapons of war could have for the most part been made out of iron.

which in not unreasonable, is it?

what happens to iron? it rusts out, therefore after 3000 years its logical to believe that any traces of their weapons of war / blades can not be found.

[skyaglow]

To the critics

Have you noticed what happens to an iron frying pan when water is left inside ?

it begins rust out and very quickly!

In Book of Mormon it says their blades were cankered with rust, and what is the only metal that rusts?

iron

iron oxide is abundant here in utah where I love and It's abundant in Central America. It's color is red in nature and its every where in mesoamerica, that's what gives color red to the ground and canyons land scape etc.

[Chickdeario]

What are the uses for iron oxide?

[skyaglow]

There are many types kind of iron Allotropes,

meaning it can be mixed with alot of differene metals and be compatible and make things stronger

make up, cosmetics to cars, buildings, airplanes...

[skyaglow]

The disadvantage of iron and steel is that pure iron, and most of its alloys, suffer badly from rust if not protected in some way. Painting, galvanization, passivation, plastic coating and bluing are some techniques used to protect iron from rust by excluding water and oxygen or by sacrificial protection.

[skyaglow]

In the Book of Mormon it says in

Mosiah 8: 11 says their blades of swords are cankered with rust

[skyaglow]

chickdeario

you question me so politely it leads me to beleive that I may be incorrect on my statement on iron, if so please correct me.

cause I sure as heck could be wrong!

[truthferrret]

As a matter of interest you may like to know that many examples of iron tools and weaponry have been recovered from many sites throughout Europe dating from the Celtic Iron Age(450-50BCE)

From one site at Llyn Cerrig Bach in Anglesey, North Wales, a large haul of iron swords, spears, arrowheads, chariots and tools were recovered complete with one still fully functional heavy duty iron slave chain.

As you can see, these things don't just conveniently disappear.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

Perhaps not in that part of the world they do't just disappear. But on the other hand, a question perhaps of interest... WHY would the remaining living people after the wars simply leave all those weapons laying around? Who is to say how many scarfed them up for their own use after the wars? Is *that* perhaps one serious plausible explanation for their disappearance? After al, would *you* leave something of that high value simply laying around? The world's climate is not the same everywhere.

[truthferrret]

No one is suggesting these iron tools and weapons were just left 'laying around". Clearly such items would have been of immense value to their owners back then. It is thought that they formed part of a Celtic armoury and that some misfortune befell the owners which rendered them unable to return to reclaim them.

Don't forget, England is a damp and rainy place. If items such as these can survive here for 2,000+ years, they can survive anywhere.

[truthferrret]

Following on from the Celts, we had the Romans. They left massive evidence in the form of tools, weapons, buildings, roads(WITH wheel ruts) etc.. Then came the Saxon tribes who migrated to England from northern Europe. Their progress from the east across the country has been charted using Dna techniques.

The same 1000yrs covers the civilisation of the BOM peoples in the Americas.

Nothing has ever been found to mark their passing.

I find that somewhat curious!

[GodLovedJosephSmith]

The Presence or Absence of the LANDBRIDGE of Siberia to ALASKA is thus NOT relevant to the problem. The first American settlers must have used MARITIME routes.

Michael Coe, "The Maya" volume 5 & 6 1999

[truthferrret]

Wrong! What Coe actually said was;

'the first americans MAY WELL HAVE TAKEN a maritime route'

And he first said it in the 4th edition of his book, published in 1987.

Nothing new there then?

Try to get your facts right.

Still, as I said; 'nothing has ever been found to mark their passing.'

[skyaglow]

7:15 .. and on

You just nailed it again!

The Jaredite steel in the Book of Mormon which translates in Hebrew as Bronze!

[skyaglow]

This is so informitive and interesting!

You have a way of making the book of mormon so interesting!

even though i know its true and as much as I love scriptures,

I kind of was losing interest in them, that is until I started watching your videos.

You have sparked in me, a huge interest back into the book of mormon and I thank you for that!

[TheBackyardProfessor]

HOWLING LAUGHTER! Bill, you never looked so good....... you are having way too much fun with that new camera and computer of yours.