Mark Driscoll on Balancing the Tough and Tender Use of Words

[shermangoering]

Very interesting...He says "speak and learn," but the word 'listen' never leaves his mouth. His issue is power--with his daughter, wife, and parishoners. His comments are more about control than communication.

[ulived1969]

I AM JESUS, I AM THE 666 IN REVELATION...

THE MARKS / NUMBERS FORMING UPON MY FACE WILL SOON BE TOTALLY UNDENIABLE...

[simplyamazed2009]

If one does a thorough search on this person, one will learn that he has a reputation for foul and coarse language and joking - in and out of the pulpit. Now, he has a larger audience - and with it the need to sanitize the past. It's similar to revisionist history, where you go back and apologize for the past because you know you are about to be discovered. It's what politicians do - not men and women of God, and it is absolutely tragic. It's also a sign of the times in which we live. Wow. Wow.

[grycer]

You don't try to break down concrete with a spung. You sound very religious.

[grycer]

*sponge

[simplyamazed2009]

Thanks for the kind words. It's typical of people who support Mark to blast those who express genuine concern. Why? Because they seem to demonstrate an inability to have a healthy dialogue, and, in this case, spell.

[grycer]

How's the motive of your heart doing? Is it vengeful? Is it like Christ's heart? Does it care more about the speech as opposed the state of a mans heart? Do you realize that Jesus called legalistic Pharisees (the ones who cared more about their law than the heart) a brood of vipers? Are you aware that Jesus called Peter Satan? How do you like that for healthy dialogue?

[grycer]

There is a massive difference between hurting people and harming people. Your heart is full of poison and it shows: It harms. You come on youtube and trash Driscoll because he is Christ-like? You try to put people in a box (something a racist does). You judged me and harmed me while Mark is being firm with people with the intent to grow them up in Christ. What have you done?

[Utopiang]

grycer, your words betray you. It shows Christian fortitude not to reply to your vitriol as simplyamazed2009 has done.

It is apparent by your speech and your thoughts that you are not being regenerated by the Holy Spirit as His fruits are evident in a converted person.

It is not uncommon for people to receive a counterfeit conversion by a false gospel, to worship another Jesus and to be led by a different Spirit.

Please pray to Jesus and repent sincerely, grycer. May God bless you.

[grycer]

Utopiang, you betray the holy spirit with your words and you lack the masculine strength needed to see this matter clearly. As the proverbs say, a firm rebuke is much better than hidden love. Should love only make you feel good or should it speak the truth IN LOVE in order to grow people up in Christ? Read your bible again, you will see that men of God don't go around being super nice to everyone, as good shepherds, they feed their sheep and kill the wolves in order to protect the sheep.

[Utopiang]

grycer, your statement that I am lacking masculine strength is rather presumptuous: I am a woman.

As a woman strengthened by the Lord I have the spiritual awareness and discernment to see what you are unable to understand. I believe that the Christian walk requires the occasional firm rebuke however, the language must be honourable.

To imagine that because God, who is PERFECT, uses difficult language, sinners have free reign use it in the same manner is foolish.

We lack the holiness.

[grycer]

Do you want me to go through the bible and list all the harsh speech spoken by sages? To come on here and say the holy spirit is not in me is arrogant. A healthy woman of God has a feminine foundation as well as masculine qualities, so no, my mention of you lacking maculinity is not presumptous, you in your feminine weakness are living by how you feel. Males and females can both contain masculine and feminine qualities.

[Utopiang]

grycer, please point out a scripture to me that describes a "healthy" woman as having masculinity. Also, please quote the scripture that teaches that males and females contain both masculine and feminine qualities. I would be most interested to see it.

There is masculinity and there is male chauvinism. Wisdom knows the difference.

You are a very presumptious person... read your comment again.

[grycer]

You must study the scriptures and look at who is a godly man, who is a godly woman and look at there attributes. Read proverbs 31 Compare people in the bible, compare them to yourself. You will see what is masculine and what is feminine. You are the weaker vessel, so we know from there that maculinity is stronger. I could go on forever about this, but I will get nowhere with a hard heart like yours. I'll pray for you.

[grycer]

Masculinity in it's very core is strong, it initiates and gets things done, it doesn't tolerate garbage - it fights, leads, expects and guides. There is much pride in your speech, it is not honourable whatsoever, though it may look like it from the surface. God did not come to bring peace, but a sword, so smarten up because you are trying to make Jesus into a nice guy and he's not, he's a holy God and he's not going to stand for your sin.

[Utopiang]

To describe your sovereign Lord with such familiar language tells me that you may be familiar with some scripture but you do not KNOW Him. If Jesus were to appear before you now, grycer, you would fall into a prostrate position in terror and reverence - so GREAT is his glory. Be careful... Jesus was not merely "a guy", he is our Saviour.

[grycer]

Utopiang says "If Jesus were to appear before you now, grycer, you would fall into a prostrate position in terror and reverence - so GREAT is his glory"

Yes, that's true, I would. In light of God's masculinity, we are all feminine. I don't believe you respect the character of God, I think you take the peices you want and ignore the rest. God has a soft gentle side and a very harsh strict side. It's the harsh strict side that you don't get and your heart needs healing to see the whole Jesus

[Utopiang]

No, grycer, it is not because in light of his masculinity we are all feminine. It is because He is the the First Born through whom everything was created and he is GLORIOUS beyond compare. You are too fixed on the idea of being masculine and need to expand your vision beyond merely being strident. There are other qualities to nurture.

Men can be gentle, tender and loving without compromising their masculinity and labelling it femininity. These qualities are not feminine, they are GODLY.

[grycer]

You are unfamiliar with what is a masculine or feminine trait. Secondly, you are going to oppose most everything I say because of your pride. You FEEL hurt by my words and don't want to tell me I have a valid point. That's fine. I'm challenging you here, because I get this, you don't. Godly triats are both masculine and feminine, I've took it a step further and distingished what is masculine and what is feminine because you can't. Men don't want to be the proverbs 31 woman just so you know

[Utopiang]

grycer, I know the difference - my father was very masculine. No, you are quite right, I do not wish to tell you that you have a valid point because I do not agree with the lengths to which you are taking your cause. I would be remiss if I did not care for your wellbeing.

Driscoll goes TOO far and offends the senses in a negative way. His fervour is not edifying, it is simply crass and unpleasant.

Also, please show me where the scripture tells us that God is both feminine and masculine.

[grycer]

I plan on messaging you, so I will answer your questions in full detail then. In the meantime I don't believe healthy masculinity was modelled to you, or you would not be trashing Mark Driscoll by saying he is not obeying the holy spirit. You say he takes it too far when Jesus himself took it further. That's wrong of you. You have ignored the harsh strict side of God for far too long. I'll explain further in my message. God bless.

[Utopiang]

grycer, read the Bible, I implore you. There is too much at stake for you to ignore the scriptures.

Ephesians 5:3-4

3 But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. 4 Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving.

Colossians 3:8

8 But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth.

[Utopiang]

Phil Johnson of Grace To You (John MacArthur) ministries wrote an article about Mark Driscoll. Quote:

"Scripture even seems to indicate that unwholesome language signals an impure mind (Matthew 12:34). And yet this is a deliberate, calculated, and persistent practice of Driscoll's. It is practically the chief trademark of his style."

Matthew 12:34

34 You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

God bless you.

[Utopiang]

Finally, grycer, I do not wish to discuss this matter with you in further detail because your mind is set on what you believe to be true.

It is unkind of you to criticise a person (my father) whom you have never met and know nothing about - it shows poor judgement and a lack of wisdom.

I have encouraged you to listen to Paul Washer, Jeff Noblit and Leonard Ravenhill but if these men did not prove worthy in your eyes, then please read Charles Spurgeon. This man was a wonderful example.

[grycer]

How did you handle my heart? How was your speech edifying? Real men are wild; cowards are tame. You only deserve tough love at this point, soft gentle love would accomplish nothing simply because your heart is hard and the wall needs to come down so you are humble enough to receive Gods grace and become a Godly man. I dont see Christ in your message at all.

[grycer]

It's typical of people who support Mark to blast those who express genuine concern. Why?"

That's not a wise question, because you are not the victim of anything but your femininity.  You were throwing dirt at him. If I bump you and what's inside you comes out and the thing inside you is poison then you are at fault, and you need to repent for the state of your heart.

[Conail23]

really? SO how exactly r u spiritually edifying anyone by criticising the guy? if ppl get saved thru his preaching more power to him.

[Conail23]

maybe u should get a life ; )

[Utopiang]

I agree wholeheartedly, simplyamazed2009. I cannot understand why Driscoll is not being obedient to the Holy Spirit Who surely will not tolerate his behaviour. One can only surmise that he may have turned away from the command to die to self or, worse, he has not received the Holy Spirit sent by Christ. You and I and other like-minded Christians must pray for Mark with compassion and love... for his sake and those who follow him. May God bless you.

[grycer]

simplyamazed2009 and yourself (Utopiang) act like pharisees. I pray God gives you eyes to see. Your prayers won't be honoured by God. People need correction. People who grow up in Christ end up being more problem centered than ego centered. As I said hurt and harm, conviction and condemnation look the same but they are VERY different. Be careful, you do not speak the truth. Your ideas of gentleness and the fruit of the spirt are wrong and they need correction. You'll learn.

[Utopiang]

grycer, using the term "Pharisee" to describe those who adhere to the fundamentals of the Gospel is simply wrong. The meaning of God's holy scriptures are revealed to those who are given understanding but it is foolishness to those who are not.

Your belief that you are privy to God's reaction to my prayers is misguided.

Your confused new age speak indicates a person without a rudder and your arrogance reveals a lack of wisdom. May Christ bless you and light the path before you.

[grycer]

You also state that you have spiritual awareness and no you don't, you lack discernment, you look at life through your tainted worldview, it's not biblical. You have made Jesus into what you want him to be. This is very clear. If you find my speech confusing then who is the one that really lacks wisdom? I speak the truth, you clearly live by feelings. There needs to be a balance.

[grycer]

I pray you adhere to the fundamentals of the gospel, you poor poor thing. :( God bless you.

[Utopiang]

It appears that your male ego has been bruised and the sarcasm that you are learning from Mark Driscoll is revealing itself.

Remember, Paul challenges us to "test everything, hold onto what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Do not simply believe every word you hear from a preacher no matter how convincing or compelling his speech may be.

[grycer]

I think the bible is much more harsh than Mark Driscoll and you are full of pride. Pride is masked insecurity. How was your relationship with your father? Where you abused in any way? Did he ignore you? Was he godly?  You should look into that.

I claim that a real man needs feminine traits to be a whole person. I claim that a real woman needs masculine traits to be a whole person. That is not egotistical at all. I think its common sense and you should know better.

[Utopiang]

grycer, the manner in which you are speaking to me is derogatory and pugnacious. Degrading sarcasm is an ugly trait and not useful despite what Driscoll believes.

There is a difference between being a strong, capable and reverent man of God... and a bully. Look up 1 Timothy 3:2-3

Unfortunately, you have taken Proverbs 31 out of context and it still does not prove that men and women share gender traits. The behaviour that God expects of a man towards a woman is explained in I Peter 3:7

[Utopiang]

You do not know me, grycer. May the Lord bless you and light the path before you.

[grycer]

You think you know me? You, my child, don't know the half of it. Your heart is proud, it says, I'm wise, I'm so godly, yes God bless you, may he make you just like me because I'm so super holy. Your behaviour is laughable and I wish you had the father figure you needed.