would Vincent O'Brien have run Golden Fleece in the St Leger and before that the Irish Sweeps Derby and King George culminating in the Arc like he did 12 years before with Nijinsky
I was at Leopardstown when Golden Fleece beat Assert when both made their debuts.He was an awesome looking individual,and had a brilliant turn of foot.In my opinion,he would have become a legendary racehorse but for his sad demise.I know Pat Eddery felt he was one of the very best horses he sat on in his long career.
@TheDartManiac Hi, i remember the 1982 derby, even the actor singing '' who'll win the derby of 1982'', can you please tell me the actual day it took place,..thank you!
Since the going at Epsom that day was heavy, it's remarkable both that they went off at such a pace and that the winning time was so exceptionally fast. Golden Fleece was a horse of the very highest order.
with a little bit of luck, the nose goes the other way in the guineas, and he dosent get injured after the derby, i believe he would have went very close to winning the triple crown, ifs and buts really but i think he proved his class in the champion at HQ, after missing the break he went on to break the track record by the equivelant of 4 lengths, if bolger knew he was back to that level he would have took on zarkava in the arc, and to me, that year, he was the only horse in europe worthy..
i may be the only one here but does anyone think new approach hasnt had the recognition he deserves. unbeatable champion 2yo, beat a nose by a top miler in the guineas when crying out for a trip, pulled hard for half a mile in the derby, 4th last cummin round tattenham corner with a wall in front, he still had the engine and acceleration to get that run up the rail and when he hit the front, TB was never gettin by, one of the toughest colts ive seen in my short career>>>>>>>
@dessiesdoneit yes your right New Approach was a great race horse and champion over 2 seasons, the only thing that was wrong with him was his temprament on pure ability i believe he had more raw ability than Sea The Stars and if he put his mind too it he could do what he did in the champion stakes
just thinking about sea the stars derby there, i wouldnt say it was vintage tho the winner went on to prove himself a great, 3 in a line for second off a poor gallop. fame and glory is obviously a class horse but less than a year since the race i cant even remember the names of obriens other 2, obviously ill know them when i see them but apart from the winner it wasnt the best derby ull see.
In my opinion, Sea The Stars was better than Golden Fleece - though it would have been interesting to see what Golden Fleece could have achieved had this not been his last race. Pat Eddery said ( in 1982 ) that Nijinsky's son was the best he had ridden up until then. He could have been anything.
Yes, Touching Wood did win the St Leger that year.
I respect your opinion, however! i would personally have a hefty wager on GF.
GF's amazing turn of foot would have seen off many a horse, and i doubt STS could have responded to it. We,ve had some cracking Derby winners, Nijinsky,Mill Reef, Troy,Shergar etc but none impressed me more than this horse. Touching wood was no mug, and GF runs by them all like a steam train!
And he's still a big baby here!
Also bear in mind what he did to duel Derby winner Assert on two previous occasions!
An impossible question to answer, DB. The Fleece was clearly brilliant. His turn of foot here on softish ground is tremendous - as good as anything I've seen, ever. Would he have beaten DB on 1986 Arc Day, Sea Bird on 1965 Arc Day, STS on 2009 Arc Day? That's hard to say, but there can be no definitive verdict. STS, in particular, will remain an enigma and a source of debate for decades as a result of his method of winning.
i agree i like this horse a lot. any horse who retires unbeaten having won the derby, has to be given the greatest repect. including the likes of morston and lammtarra. its a bit futile really to say he'd have beaten those you mentioned, as he wasnt even born or had retired when the others were around :) as ive said before, its better to just respect all the greats for what they are. btw i agree, dancing braves finishing speed really was spectacular and probably unmatched by any other horse.
sorry maxtudor mate Shergar could'nt have run d next year d derby is only for 3year olds,so its not possible for any horse to do 2 in a row.But no horse since Shergar was up there with golden fleece in my opinion.
I tell you what, it would have been great had Shergar ran in this. That would be some head to head, I reckon Shergar would have beaten him and made it two in a row.
Remember Shergar quickened off a slow run race, this fella did it off a very strong early pace, Shergar would not have ran away from GF, i could be wrong but my feeling is this horse had too much speed for Shergar. Even Piggott said this horse could have been the best of the lot!
Another spectacular winner was Psidium who sliced through the field from last to first in 1961. He couldn't have won a modern Derby, though, as he needed firm ground, and that isn't allowed nowadays. On that subject, one who I'm convinced would have won but for the watering was Karinga Bay, another lover of firm going, who came fourth in 1990. The natural ground during that hot Summer would have been like concrete.
Karinga Bay ran a great race in the Dante, and on form and breeding looked to have an outstanding chance in the Derby if he got the fast ground he needed. But then the watering started, and although it was officially 'good' on the day, the mud looked to be flying to me. Brian Rouse, his jockey, was reported as saying that he needed it 'like a motorway'. If nature had been allowed to take its course, that's probably what he would have got!
There have been a number of unlucky losers in the Derby. My memory may be playing tricks but I seem to recall the jockey falling off a probable winner - Hethersett - and a French horse named Angers failing because of some misfortune (can't now remember what it was).
lads are ye all forgetting that DB failed to win his derby and you can blame greville starkeys ride all ye like but gf also came from a long way back and also troy did it as well. i know DB went on to greater succeess afterwards and injury prevented GF as he was a big fragile colt but to my mind GF's performance on derby day was at least as good as anything the brave did throughout his career. DB produced some awesome displays but i think this was also an awesome performance
Let's not forget the greatest ever wet sail Derby victory - and the quickest to boot. Lammtarra appeared to be completely out of contention - and many lengths back - with two furlongs to go.
Dancing Brave failed only because he was rifdden as a non stayer and Shahrestani dont forget went on to blow away the field in the Irish Derby and in 2 subsequent meetings with Dancing Brave when he was ridden properly was beaten easily. Both Troy and Golden Fleece had no such stamina doubts and didnt come from as far back or face a rival the quality of Shahrastani's quality to pass inside the final ferlong and a half.
Agreed. Golden Fleece's Derby time was ridiculously fast considering the heavy going that day. It's a real shame that injury prevented him from ever running again and that cancer put an end to him before he could make his mark at stud.
Regarding Millreef42's comment that GF was not in the same league as DB!
I strongly beg to differ! i imagine Mr Eddery whom having ridden them both would be the best person to pass comment on that argument, and he consistantly say's GF was one of, if not the best horse he'd ever ridden!
GF is still a big baby here! and had more scope to strengthen and mature, i can't imagine what he could have achieved, and i'm sure Messers Eddery and O'Brien would feel the same.
Hard to compare Derby winners but he was really impressive on the day coming from so far back and winning easily, As regards fast finishes in the Derby, Where do you leave Sir Ivor's finish in the 1968 race where he covered the last150yds at an unbelievable speed where he came from 3l down to win going away by 1and a half lengths It would be interesting to get the time of that, admittedly though off a slow pace. Lester said on more than one occasion that he was the best Derby winner he rode.
For wet sail Derby finishes and fast Derby times Lammtarra's Derby speaks for itself. It is quite impossible to pick Lammtarra as the winner at the two furlong pole; three furlongs out he is a 100/1 shot. And he was still learning his trade coming down that Epsom hill.
This horse would have given any horse a fright! he quickened twice in this race, he came through the whole field in a furlong, then quickened again when he got to the leaders. Messrs Eddery and O'Brien certainly know how good he was, they were amazed by the fact he had so much speed for a such a big horse. The thing is ! when Eddery asked for it, it was instant! GF was a monster! just think what might have been! The poor horse eventually died from cancer.
"I'd say Golden Fleece was the best horse I ever rode. He was a freak, 17 hands, a great big, highly strung horse. He had so much bean, yet stayed a mile and a half. He wasn't easy to ride, though. He used to pull very hard."
Great derby winner, not sure i'd put him in the same league as dancing brave, does anyone know how fast golden fleece ran the last 2 furlongs, because dancing brave ran his pen ultimate furlong in 10.2 secs, it would be a good way to compare there turn of foot. I see GF speed as similar to nijinsky in his derby, but not as fast as DB.
Not sure what GF's sectionals were, but this race was ran nearly three seconds faster than DB's Derby so you can't really compare their last two furlongs.
GF's race was ran at a much faster pace earlier, and still produced a devastating turn of foot . No mistake this was a great horse, shame it was the last we saw of him.
There is less than a second between DB and GF covering the last 3 furlongs, but as I said before, considering the pace of the GF Derby, that is really impressive. I consider GF to be one of the best Derby winners of the last 40 years. Just a shame we never saw him run again. He had the potential to be a legend in the same breath as DB and Nijinsky.
Persepolis was a good horse going into that race (Epsom finished him off) & Touching Wood went on to win a Leger. Silver Hawk ran well in the Irish Derby & dont forget this one (Golden Fleece) murdered the French/Irish Derby winner (Assert) the only times they met.
Even Piggott said Golden Fleece was probably O'Briens best Derby winner...
Golden Fleece was an amazing horse. Absolute tragedy that he was unable to run again & worse still his early death from cancer prevented him siring many many champions as he surely would have done with his looks/pedigree & ability
Pat Eddery and the great M V O'Brien certainly knew how good he was! He's underated because he didn't show after Epsom, the fact that Eddery mentions GF in the same breath as Dancing Brave says an awful lot!
P.s You are right! he was a beauty!never seen a Derby winner with such powerful quaters! he looked like a big steeplechaser from behind!
Interesting point, however ! personally as much as i adore Dancing Brave, i believe Golden Fleece was better at Epsom than DB, and what's more he quickened better than DB did at Epsom. DB's run in the Arc was for me one of the best ever perfomances by a racehorse but i think unlucky as he was, he still didn't act as well at Epsom as he did at Longchamp.
GF wasn't quickening. As in most races that are run at good pace throughout, the horse that appears to be quickening past other horses in the home straight to win is actually decelerating but at a slower rate than the other horses.
I don't think GF came around Tattenham corner faster than he came up the straight! At that point he was on the bit! Have to disagree with you there. I think John Oaksey would too!
In the last 3 furlongs, Dancing Brave and Golden Fleece have less than a second between them and considering the pace at which GF's race was run, that was pretty impressive. In fact the more I watch this race the more impressive is Golden Fleece's run. When Eddery asks him to go at around 3 furlongs, GF's response is immediate and is sustained till the end. Was GF a better horse than DB? At Epsom I would have to say yes.
No shaffi, Dancing Brave was something else in the 'Arc...you have to wonder though, how good the 'Fleece was and if he had made it to Longchamp what we would have seen from him!
You have to wonder when you see how many decent Derby winners have flopped at Longchamp. GF either pulverizes the field or finishes half way down the field. I'm a big fan of GF (like his dad) and like to think that, even at the end of the season, he would have had too much for Akiyda and Ardross over 12 furlongs.
When you consider that Akiyda was being and very nearly was caught by Ardross who was a stayer i can only assume that GF with his decisive turn of foot would have been too good for that field! no disrespect to Ardross
Prior to his Derby win GF simply cantered away from Assert who went on to win the French Derby, placed inthe King George to Kalaglow and then waltzed away with the B&H Gold cup! Assert was a bloody good horse! Just a shame GF didn't show after Epsom.
Eddery still rates him with Dancing Brave as best horses he ever rode!
This was Way before my time into horse racing but great watching it nonetheless. Golden Fleece reminds me of mill reef winning the derby, his positioning at the two pole on the outside and stretching ahead inside the last. Its really fascinating and Intriguing that he never raced again !! It makes this Footage look almost mystical. They must have thought him to be very special to retire to stud so soon... Did Robert Sangster have some good horses in the late 70's n' Early 80's or what ? !!!
interesting points krisstruss but it's academic really though isn't it? Sharastani got to the post first so his average speed must have been faster than all the other runners..DB and Mashkour were both off the pace after Tattenham corner (possibly for different reasons)and Mashkour took longer to get going than the Brave..but we have seen many long priced colts 'staying on well' at the end of a Derby but they often prove to be cases of flattering to deceive!
Yes he was. He was quite a striking animal with that dappled grey coat of his. Although not a Tryptich, he was always entered in the big races. I think he might have won the Champion Stakes. I'll look it up. I believe he has had some moderate success at stud as well.
Most definately! prior to this he demolished Assert who won the French Derby. I was in awe of this horse after this performance, and i've seen a lot of Derby winers. The sheer physical power he had was frightening!He was a real monster! and had the rear end a quater horse would be proud of!
Unfortunately he was very highly strung, and didn't race again. Retired unbeaten and died prematurely at stud. The best of Nijinsky's three Epsom Derby winners!
Golden Fleece might not have had quite the same sudden burst of acceleration as Dancing Brave, but Golden Fleece's sustained run for the last 3 furlongs must rank him as one of the most impressive Derby winners of the last 40 years.
shaffi,the split times for Shahrastani's Derby show that the final furlong was run the quickest by Mashkour the 3rd placed finisher,Dancing Braves fastest time was posted from the 3rd out to the final furlong marker, easily quicker than any other horse, he was still catching Shahrastani but had used most of his speed to come from where he did,Mashkour was staying on best in the end and was actually catching the front two.
Yes, whatever happened to Mashkour. I thought at the time that he stayed on well that day and had the makings of a half-decent animal. I didn't know he finished as quick as he did though.
thanks for that krisstruss!! i've thought that for years mashkour was in all sorts of bother as DB flew past,but at the finishing line you can clearly see how much ground he'd made up!!its alright finishing the final furlong as fast as they did,the problem with shahrastani's derby was that they walked for 10furlongs!!top class horses need pace and in that derby there was none.eddery rode one of his great races on GF timed top perfection killed the race with his instant turn of foot.
Well terbine ! here we go again! firstly the great Brave's final furlong was hellish quick but it took him a furlong to find his stride,( but i blame starkey for not having him balanced and better placed). When Eddery shook his reigns Golden Fleece took half a furlong to catch the leaders and posted an ultra quick time also! In my lifetime there will never be another Dancing Brave, but one thing though! how can you say Golden Fleece was lucky to win??? He was a decisive and deserved winner!
Shaffi, do you honestly believe that Golden Fleece could have come from that far back and beaten Sharastani? He was lucky because there wasn't a Sharastani in the field..not lucky as in flukey, no arguments that he was a decisive and deserving winner and a great clip so ta..
apologies for taking your view literally, yes i do think this fella would have caught shahrastani, no disrespect to Dancing brave, i just feel that golden Fleece was quicker off the mark, not particularly faster, plus i think DB hated Epsom, and was handicapped by a shocking ride by Starkey.
I would loved to have seen this horse fulfill his potential later that season, but alas.......
Golden Fleece was a great horse and a more than worthy winner of the 82 Derby. He was however passing tiring horses as it was a quickly run race. The 86 Derby was slowly run and became a home straight sprint. DB was passing horses that were still full of running which is much harder to do. Good as he was Golden Fleece would not have got anywhere near Sharastani from DB's position
Golden Fleece was last turning tatenhem corner and won in a canter, the runner up went on to win the leger. Im noticing a distinct lack of appreciation on here for anything trained in ireland is it bias?
watch troys derby again,4 out he was in a bad position,not as bad as dancing brave,but he did win by 7 not beaten like dancing brave,in my opinion no horse would hve beaten troy in the derby
I've been wanting to see Golden Fleece's Derby win for years, so thanks for posting this video. He wasn't as impressive as i'd expected him to be after what i'd read about. He was certainly a good horse and died tragically young. If he and Dancing Brave had ever ran against each other though (and i know they were from different years) i know who my money would be on and that would be the jet engined Dancing Brave.
It's well documented that Dancing Brave's final furlong at Epsom was ultra quick so I don't agree that Golden Fleece had a more immediate and decisive turn of foot...Eddery was lucky to win it from that far back
I think during the early 80's the breeding industry lost Shergar, Troy and Golden Fleece prematurely and it was a real pity because these horses were all potentialy Great stallions in the making . Shergar in particular really stamped his stock and racing was certainly worse off without them.
He was beautifully bred. The Nearco inbreeding possibly contributing to him being highly strung. He was still a big baby going to Epsom and i believe the great Mr O'brien must take a lot of credit for his part in nurturing this great horse.
Unfortunately Golden Fleece died prematurely from colic after only a season or so at stud. I will post Asserts win in the 1982 benson & hedges gold cup at York,and his French Derby win. when you see the manner of his victories it will give some indication of how good Golden Fleece must have been. considering he hammered him prior to Epsom.
enjoyed it immensely!! i was 12 when i first witnessed the race...don't think another horse ever captivated me as much (lammtarra,dancing brave,lomond, kings lake,galileo,montjeu,etc. included!)?!
would Vincent O'Brien have run Golden Fleece in the St Leger and before that the Irish Sweeps Derby and King George culminating in the Arc like he did 12 years before with Nijinsky
darren2514fv 2 months ago
I was at Leopardstown when Golden Fleece beat Assert when both made their debuts.He was an awesome looking individual,and had a brilliant turn of foot.In my opinion,he would have become a legendary racehorse but for his sad demise.I know Pat Eddery felt he was one of the very best horses he sat on in his long career.
TheDartManiac 1 year ago
@TheDartManiac Hi, i remember the 1982 derby, even the actor singing '' who'll win the derby of 1982'', can you please tell me the actual day it took place,..thank you!
Loverboy19691 8 months ago
dancing brave and shergar dont need to say anymore
godamit27 1 year ago
Fabulous horse...what a tragedy he died so very young,could have been the best of the lot.
Peter9761 1 year ago
how good was golden fleece, perhaps one of the most underrated derby winners, the way he cruised past was so impressive
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
Since the going at Epsom that day was heavy, it's remarkable both that they went off at such a pace and that the winning time was so exceptionally fast. Golden Fleece was a horse of the very highest order.
Czerniakowska 2 years ago
Golden Fleece: marvellous horse. Is it only me or does he have the same style as Nijinsky? Would hardly be surprising!
mingingchips 2 years ago
with a little bit of luck, the nose goes the other way in the guineas, and he dosent get injured after the derby, i believe he would have went very close to winning the triple crown, ifs and buts really but i think he proved his class in the champion at HQ, after missing the break he went on to break the track record by the equivelant of 4 lengths, if bolger knew he was back to that level he would have took on zarkava in the arc, and to me, that year, he was the only horse in europe worthy..
dessiesdoneit 2 years ago
i may be the only one here but does anyone think new approach hasnt had the recognition he deserves. unbeatable champion 2yo, beat a nose by a top miler in the guineas when crying out for a trip, pulled hard for half a mile in the derby, 4th last cummin round tattenham corner with a wall in front, he still had the engine and acceleration to get that run up the rail and when he hit the front, TB was never gettin by, one of the toughest colts ive seen in my short career>>>>>>>
dessiesdoneit 2 years ago
@dessiesdoneit yes your right New Approach was a great race horse and champion over 2 seasons, the only thing that was wrong with him was his temprament on pure ability i believe he had more raw ability than Sea The Stars and if he put his mind too it he could do what he did in the champion stakes
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
just thinking about sea the stars derby there, i wouldnt say it was vintage tho the winner went on to prove himself a great, 3 in a line for second off a poor gallop. fame and glory is obviously a class horse but less than a year since the race i cant even remember the names of obriens other 2, obviously ill know them when i see them but apart from the winner it wasnt the best derby ull see.
dessiesdoneit 2 years ago
What happened to Golden Fleece, since this was his last race?
diangofango 2 years ago
Unfortunately this brilliant horse died of cancer , about a year or so after this race.
shaffi1 2 years ago
In my opinion, Sea The Stars was better than Golden Fleece - though it would have been interesting to see what Golden Fleece could have achieved had this not been his last race. Pat Eddery said ( in 1982 ) that Nijinsky's son was the best he had ridden up until then. He could have been anything.
Yes, Touching Wood did win the St Leger that year.
MrPapaBill 2 years ago
I respect your opinion, however! i would personally have a hefty wager on GF.
GF's amazing turn of foot would have seen off many a horse, and i doubt STS could have responded to it. We,ve had some cracking Derby winners, Nijinsky,Mill Reef, Troy,Shergar etc but none impressed me more than this horse. Touching wood was no mug, and GF runs by them all like a steam train!
And he's still a big baby here!
Also bear in mind what he did to duel Derby winner Assert on two previous occasions!
shaffi1 2 years ago
pat had plenty of great horses after that and we all know who the best he sat on was...
dessiesdoneit 2 years ago
Who gives a fuck about your opinion PAPA fucking know all you fucking arse!!!
bigttim1 1 year ago
Did Touching Wood win the Leger that year?
frankschlanker 2 years ago
so i suppose sea the stars is better than golden fleece then?
DancingBrave15 2 years ago
An impossible question to answer, DB. The Fleece was clearly brilliant. His turn of foot here on softish ground is tremendous - as good as anything I've seen, ever. Would he have beaten DB on 1986 Arc Day, Sea Bird on 1965 Arc Day, STS on 2009 Arc Day? That's hard to say, but there can be no definitive verdict. STS, in particular, will remain an enigma and a source of debate for decades as a result of his method of winning.
For spectacle, however, DB's Arc stands supreme.
21shergar 2 years ago
i agree i like this horse a lot. any horse who retires unbeaten having won the derby, has to be given the greatest repect. including the likes of morston and lammtarra. its a bit futile really to say he'd have beaten those you mentioned, as he wasnt even born or had retired when the others were around :) as ive said before, its better to just respect all the greats for what they are. btw i agree, dancing braves finishing speed really was spectacular and probably unmatched by any other horse.
DancingBrave15 2 years ago
Sensational, he really was. Such a shame he never raced again.
flavellm 2 years ago
This colt really was an athletic mover. What a beautiful action he had; second only to the equine poetry in motion that was Nashwan's gait.
21shergar 2 years ago
This is the first Derby result I remember. I attended the Derby in the 90's but can't remember who won, possibly Lammtarra.
innit27 2 years ago
sorry maxtudor mate Shergar could'nt have run d next year d derby is only for 3year olds,so its not possible for any horse to do 2 in a row.But no horse since Shergar was up there with golden fleece in my opinion.
TheBroph1 2 years ago
@TheBroph1 Sorry, that was a dumb comment :eek. If they ran the same year I think Shergar would have come out on top
maxtudor 5 months ago
I tell you what, it would have been great had Shergar ran in this. That would be some head to head, I reckon Shergar would have beaten him and made it two in a row.
maxtudor 2 years ago
Remember Shergar quickened off a slow run race, this fella did it off a very strong early pace, Shergar would not have ran away from GF, i could be wrong but my feeling is this horse had too much speed for Shergar. Even Piggott said this horse could have been the best of the lot!
shaffi1 2 years ago
SEABIRD would have smoked Mill Reef,Dancing Brave, and Nijinsky!!!
TBabytko 2 years ago
But then he may have passed out on the fumes as the three you mention come past SB. Truth is it's impossible to call that race.
21shergar 2 years ago
Another spectacular winner was Psidium who sliced through the field from last to first in 1961. He couldn't have won a modern Derby, though, as he needed firm ground, and that isn't allowed nowadays. On that subject, one who I'm convinced would have won but for the watering was Karinga Bay, another lover of firm going, who came fourth in 1990. The natural ground during that hot Summer would have been like concrete.
jet9491 2 years ago
Funny you should mention Karinga Bay, as he was not only a favourite of mine , but was trained just up the road from me by Denys Smith.
Bishop Auckland has been home for a couple of truly high class trainers in Mr Smith and the late Arthur Stephenson (The Thinker, Blazing Walker).
21shergar 2 years ago
Karinga Bay ran a great race in the Dante, and on form and breeding looked to have an outstanding chance in the Derby if he got the fast ground he needed. But then the watering started, and although it was officially 'good' on the day, the mud looked to be flying to me. Brian Rouse, his jockey, was reported as saying that he needed it 'like a motorway'. If nature had been allowed to take its course, that's probably what he would have got!
jet9491 2 years ago
There have been a number of unlucky losers in the Derby. My memory may be playing tricks but I seem to recall the jockey falling off a probable winner - Hethersett - and a French horse named Angers failing because of some misfortune (can't now remember what it was).
Czerniakowska 2 years ago
lads are ye all forgetting that DB failed to win his derby and you can blame greville starkeys ride all ye like but gf also came from a long way back and also troy did it as well. i know DB went on to greater succeess afterwards and injury prevented GF as he was a big fragile colt but to my mind GF's performance on derby day was at least as good as anything the brave did throughout his career. DB produced some awesome displays but i think this was also an awesome performance
2009tel 2 years ago
Let's not forget the greatest ever wet sail Derby victory - and the quickest to boot. Lammtarra appeared to be completely out of contention - and many lengths back - with two furlongs to go.
21shergar 2 years ago
Dancing Brave failed only because he was rifdden as a non stayer and Shahrestani dont forget went on to blow away the field in the Irish Derby and in 2 subsequent meetings with Dancing Brave when he was ridden properly was beaten easily. Both Troy and Golden Fleece had no such stamina doubts and didnt come from as far back or face a rival the quality of Shahrastani's quality to pass inside the final ferlong and a half.
bluemanc43 2 years ago
Agreed. Golden Fleece's Derby time was ridiculously fast considering the heavy going that day. It's a real shame that injury prevented him from ever running again and that cancer put an end to him before he could make his mark at stud.
Czerniakowska 2 years ago
Regarding Millreef42's comment that GF was not in the same league as DB!
I strongly beg to differ! i imagine Mr Eddery whom having ridden them both would be the best person to pass comment on that argument, and he consistantly say's GF was one of, if not the best horse he'd ever ridden!
GF is still a big baby here! and had more scope to strengthen and mature, i can't imagine what he could have achieved, and i'm sure Messers Eddery and O'Brien would feel the same.
shaffi1 2 years ago
Hard to compare Derby winners but he was really impressive on the day coming from so far back and winning easily, As regards fast finishes in the Derby, Where do you leave Sir Ivor's finish in the 1968 race where he covered the last150yds at an unbelievable speed where he came from 3l down to win going away by 1and a half lengths It would be interesting to get the time of that, admittedly though off a slow pace. Lester said on more than one occasion that he was the best Derby winner he rode.
liamg353 2 years ago
For wet sail Derby finishes and fast Derby times Lammtarra's Derby speaks for itself. It is quite impossible to pick Lammtarra as the winner at the two furlong pole; three furlongs out he is a 100/1 shot. And he was still learning his trade coming down that Epsom hill.
21shergar 2 years ago
could not beat Mill Reef, Dancing Brave or Nijinsky
millreef42 2 years ago
good horse but not in the same league as DB
millreef42 2 years ago
Golden Fleece is surely the greatest of all the great unknown quantities in the world of racing.
I think he's one of the small handful of horses that on his day may have beaten DB in the 1986 Arc. But I'm not at all sure!
21shergar 2 years ago
This horse would have given any horse a fright! he quickened twice in this race, he came through the whole field in a furlong, then quickened again when he got to the leaders. Messrs Eddery and O'Brien certainly know how good he was, they were amazed by the fact he had so much speed for a such a big horse. The thing is ! when Eddery asked for it, it was instant! GF was a monster! just think what might have been! The poor horse eventually died from cancer.
shaffi1 2 years ago
"I'd say Golden Fleece was the best horse I ever rode. He was a freak, 17 hands, a great big, highly strung horse. He had so much bean, yet stayed a mile and a half. He wasn't easy to ride, though. He used to pull very hard."
...................................................................
The above is a quote from Pat Eddery for those who ridiculously think that Dancing Brave would have beaten Golden Fleece.
I think Pat should know.
goldenfleecer22 3 years ago
How can you say GF was better than DB, GF never ran against older horses. Do you think that GF could of beaten DB in the 86 Arc.
147ard 3 years ago
Even Lester Piggott stated that Golden Fleece may have been Vincent O'Brien's best Derby winner.
If that's not the ultimate compliment to this horse then i don't know what is!
shaffi1 3 years ago
Great derby winner, not sure i'd put him in the same league as dancing brave, does anyone know how fast golden fleece ran the last 2 furlongs, because dancing brave ran his pen ultimate furlong in 10.2 secs, it would be a good way to compare there turn of foot. I see GF speed as similar to nijinsky in his derby, but not as fast as DB.
147ard 3 years ago
Not sure what GF's sectionals were, but this race was ran nearly three seconds faster than DB's Derby so you can't really compare their last two furlongs.
GF's race was ran at a much faster pace earlier, and still produced a devastating turn of foot . No mistake this was a great horse, shame it was the last we saw of him.
shaffi1 3 years ago
There is less than a second between DB and GF covering the last 3 furlongs, but as I said before, considering the pace of the GF Derby, that is really impressive. I consider GF to be one of the best Derby winners of the last 40 years. Just a shame we never saw him run again. He had the potential to be a legend in the same breath as DB and Nijinsky.
december2364 3 years ago
A great Derby winner, though maybe not the strongest of Derby fields.
Czerniakowska 3 years ago
Persepolis was a good horse going into that race (Epsom finished him off) & Touching Wood went on to win a Leger. Silver Hawk ran well in the Irish Derby & dont forget this one (Golden Fleece) murdered the French/Irish Derby winner (Assert) the only times they met.
Even Piggott said Golden Fleece was probably O'Briens best Derby winner...
quick46 3 years ago
Golden Fleece was an amazing horse. Absolute tragedy that he was unable to run again & worse still his early death from cancer prevented him siring many many champions as he surely would have done with his looks/pedigree & ability
quick46 3 years ago
I thought he died from colic?
Anyway he was a brute ,a proper race-horse and a very good one at that.
Not in the same league as Dancing Brave though :-)
rideout1878 3 years ago
TOTALLY in the same league as Dancing Brave in my opinion (& Eddery's funnily enough)
No, he had cancer, he didn't die from colic. Nijinsky suffered a colic the day before his Derby.
quick46 3 years ago
Your entitled to your opinion mate ,even though the general consensus is that Dancing Brave was a league above!, that is also my opinion.
rideout1878 3 years ago
That surging run reminds me so much of Dancing Brave's Arc surge... uncannily similar
24dcambridge 3 years ago
Like Zarkava, Golden Fleece was retired unbeaten and never really extended in his races. You just don't know how good he was.
I saw him in two of his races. He was the most beautiful horse I've ever seen, and I've seen a few.
Iomarca 3 years ago
Pat Eddery and the great M V O'Brien certainly knew how good he was! He's underated because he didn't show after Epsom, the fact that Eddery mentions GF in the same breath as Dancing Brave says an awful lot!
P.s You are right! he was a beauty!never seen a Derby winner with such powerful quaters! he looked like a big steeplechaser from behind!
shaffi1 3 years ago
Interesting point, however ! personally as much as i adore Dancing Brave, i believe Golden Fleece was better at Epsom than DB, and what's more he quickened better than DB did at Epsom. DB's run in the Arc was for me one of the best ever perfomances by a racehorse but i think unlucky as he was, he still didn't act as well at Epsom as he did at Longchamp.
shaffi1 3 years ago
GF wasn't quickening. As in most races that are run at good pace throughout, the horse that appears to be quickening past other horses in the home straight to win is actually decelerating but at a slower rate than the other horses.
Newworldman66 3 years ago
I don't think GF came around Tattenham corner faster than he came up the straight! At that point he was on the bit! Have to disagree with you there. I think John Oaksey would too!
shaffi1 3 years ago
In the last 3 furlongs, Dancing Brave and Golden Fleece have less than a second between them and considering the pace at which GF's race was run, that was pretty impressive. In fact the more I watch this race the more impressive is Golden Fleece's run. When Eddery asks him to go at around 3 furlongs, GF's response is immediate and is sustained till the end. Was GF a better horse than DB? At Epsom I would have to say yes.
december2364 3 years ago
I don't agree with Newworldman66!
terbine13 3 years ago
yes I concur with that view shaffi DB would have been blitzed at Epsom by GF...Longchamps? I wonder which one Mr Eddery would have plumped for!
terbine13 3 years ago
To be honest Terbs i wouldn't plump for any horse in history against Dancing Brave at Longchamp that day! would you?
shaffi1 3 years ago
No shaffi, Dancing Brave was something else in the 'Arc...you have to wonder though, how good the 'Fleece was and if he had made it to Longchamp what we would have seen from him!
terbine13 3 years ago
You have to wonder when you see how many decent Derby winners have flopped at Longchamp. GF either pulverizes the field or finishes half way down the field. I'm a big fan of GF (like his dad) and like to think that, even at the end of the season, he would have had too much for Akiyda and Ardross over 12 furlongs.
december2364 3 years ago
When you consider that Akiyda was being and very nearly was caught by Ardross who was a stayer i can only assume that GF with his decisive turn of foot would have been too good for that field! no disrespect to Ardross
who was a cracking good horse.
shaffi1 3 years ago
Have to agree with you Shaffi. I think GF would have destroyed the 1982 Arc field.
december2364 3 years ago
Prior to his Derby win GF simply cantered away from Assert who went on to win the French Derby, placed inthe King George to Kalaglow and then waltzed away with the B&H Gold cup! Assert was a bloody good horse! Just a shame GF didn't show after Epsom.
Eddery still rates him with Dancing Brave as best horses he ever rode!
shaffi1 3 years ago
This was Way before my time into horse racing but great watching it nonetheless. Golden Fleece reminds me of mill reef winning the derby, his positioning at the two pole on the outside and stretching ahead inside the last. Its really fascinating and Intriguing that he never raced again !! It makes this Footage look almost mystical. They must have thought him to be very special to retire to stud so soon... Did Robert Sangster have some good horses in the late 70's n' Early 80's or what ? !!!
MrNice222111 3 years ago
interesting points krisstruss but it's academic really though isn't it? Sharastani got to the post first so his average speed must have been faster than all the other runners..DB and Mashkour were both off the pace after Tattenham corner (possibly for different reasons)and Mashkour took longer to get going than the Brave..but we have seen many long priced colts 'staying on well' at the end of a Derby but they often prove to be cases of flattering to deceive!
terbine13 3 years ago
I think Terimon, the long priced second to Nashwan in the 1989 Derby was the exception to that rule and had a reasonable post - derby career.
december2364 3 years ago
True december, nice colt too, wasn't he by Bustino?
terbine13 3 years ago
Yes he was. He was quite a striking animal with that dappled grey coat of his. Although not a Tryptich, he was always entered in the big races. I think he might have won the Champion Stakes. I'll look it up. I believe he has had some moderate success at stud as well.
december2364 3 years ago
Excellent point terbine,Shahrastani MUST have had the fastest average speed.
krisstruss 3 years ago
Most definately! prior to this he demolished Assert who won the French Derby. I was in awe of this horse after this performance, and i've seen a lot of Derby winers. The sheer physical power he had was frightening!He was a real monster! and had the rear end a quater horse would be proud of!
Unfortunately he was very highly strung, and didn't race again. Retired unbeaten and died prematurely at stud. The best of Nijinsky's three Epsom Derby winners!
shaffi1 3 years ago
Golden Fleece might not have had quite the same sudden burst of acceleration as Dancing Brave, but Golden Fleece's sustained run for the last 3 furlongs must rank him as one of the most impressive Derby winners of the last 40 years.
december2364 3 years ago
Thanks for the info kriss, bet not many people knew that one! myself included.
shaffi1 4 years ago
Great vids by the way.
krisstruss 4 years ago
shaffi,the split times for Shahrastani's Derby show that the final furlong was run the quickest by Mashkour the 3rd placed finisher,Dancing Braves fastest time was posted from the 3rd out to the final furlong marker, easily quicker than any other horse, he was still catching Shahrastani but had used most of his speed to come from where he did,Mashkour was staying on best in the end and was actually catching the front two.
krisstruss 4 years ago
Yes, whatever happened to Mashkour. I thought at the time that he stayed on well that day and had the makings of a half-decent animal. I didn't know he finished as quick as he did though.
december2364 3 years ago
he ended leaving h.cecil and and went to david smaga in france,i remember ibn bey winning at deauville and mashkour was a runner
think he finished last.
sheedysvsign 3 years ago
Successful post-Derby career then eh.
december2364 3 years ago
thanks for that krisstruss!! i've thought that for years mashkour was in all sorts of bother as DB flew past,but at the finishing line you can clearly see how much ground he'd made up!!its alright finishing the final furlong as fast as they did,the problem with shahrastani's derby was that they walked for 10furlongs!!top class horses need pace and in that derby there was none.eddery rode one of his great races on GF timed top perfection killed the race with his instant turn of foot.
marcusallcock 3 years ago
Delighted to finally see this as a young 35 year old. My father always said Golden Fleece was the best flat horse he'd ever seen.....
Nautilus1972 4 years ago
Nautilus! your father was obviously a good judge of a horse!
shaffi1 4 years ago
Well terbine ! here we go again! firstly the great Brave's final furlong was hellish quick but it took him a furlong to find his stride,( but i blame starkey for not having him balanced and better placed). When Eddery shook his reigns Golden Fleece took half a furlong to catch the leaders and posted an ultra quick time also! In my lifetime there will never be another Dancing Brave, but one thing though! how can you say Golden Fleece was lucky to win??? He was a decisive and deserved winner!
shaffi1 4 years ago
Shaffi, do you honestly believe that Golden Fleece could have come from that far back and beaten Sharastani? He was lucky because there wasn't a Sharastani in the field..not lucky as in flukey, no arguments that he was a decisive and deserving winner and a great clip so ta..
terbine13 4 years ago
apologies for taking your view literally, yes i do think this fella would have caught shahrastani, no disrespect to Dancing brave, i just feel that golden Fleece was quicker off the mark, not particularly faster, plus i think DB hated Epsom, and was handicapped by a shocking ride by Starkey.
I would loved to have seen this horse fulfill his potential later that season, but alas.......
shaffi1 4 years ago
Golden Fleece was a great horse and a more than worthy winner of the 82 Derby. He was however passing tiring horses as it was a quickly run race. The 86 Derby was slowly run and became a home straight sprint. DB was passing horses that were still full of running which is much harder to do. Good as he was Golden Fleece would not have got anywhere near Sharastani from DB's position
Newworldman66 3 years ago
I agree with that Newworldman66!
terbine13 3 years ago
Golden Fleece was last turning tatenhem corner and won in a canter, the runner up went on to win the leger. Im noticing a distinct lack of appreciation on here for anything trained in ireland is it bias?
nellie1912 3 years ago
maybe not golden fleece, but troy would have,easily the best epsom derby winner of the last 40 years
darwinbhoy 3 years ago
Can't agree with you Darwinbhoy. From DB's position Troy would have had no chance.
Newworldman66 3 years ago
watch troys derby again,4 out he was in a bad position,not as bad as dancing brave,but he did win by 7 not beaten like dancing brave,in my opinion no horse would hve beaten troy in the derby
darwinbhoy 3 years ago 2
I've been wanting to see Golden Fleece's Derby win for years, so thanks for posting this video. He wasn't as impressive as i'd expected him to be after what i'd read about. He was certainly a good horse and died tragically young. If he and Dancing Brave had ever ran against each other though (and i know they were from different years) i know who my money would be on and that would be the jet engined Dancing Brave.
formula1mad 4 years ago
It's well documented that Dancing Brave's final furlong at Epsom was ultra quick so I don't agree that Golden Fleece had a more immediate and decisive turn of foot...Eddery was lucky to win it from that far back
terbine13 4 years ago
I think during the early 80's the breeding industry lost Shergar, Troy and Golden Fleece prematurely and it was a real pity because these horses were all potentialy Great stallions in the making . Shergar in particular really stamped his stock and racing was certainly worse off without them.
shaffi1 4 years ago
maybe we could clone them perhaps with a little of their DNA?! :)
curleybap 4 years ago
Wouldn't that be something!
The difference between this horse at Epsom and say Dancing Brave, was that his excelleration was immediate and decisive.
Plus of course Pat rode him with confidence unlike Mr Starkey who made a shambles of his.
shaffi1 4 years ago
i notice that Golden fleece was the product of an interesting process of "line-bredding" with Nearco being present in the dam and the sires line!
curleybap 4 years ago
ditto with Shergar!
curleybap 4 years ago
He was beautifully bred. The Nearco inbreeding possibly contributing to him being highly strung. He was still a big baby going to Epsom and i believe the great Mr O'brien must take a lot of credit for his part in nurturing this great horse.
shaffi1 4 years ago
Unfortunately Golden Fleece died prematurely from colic after only a season or so at stud. I will post Asserts win in the 1982 benson & hedges gold cup at York,and his French Derby win. when you see the manner of his victories it will give some indication of how good Golden Fleece must have been. considering he hammered him prior to Epsom.
shaffi1 4 years ago
enjoyed it immensely!! i was 12 when i first witnessed the race...don't think another horse ever captivated me as much (lammtarra,dancing brave,lomond, kings lake,galileo,montjeu,etc. included!)?!
curleybap 4 years ago
whatever happened to Golden Fleece? Did he become a stallion? He must rate amongst the greats.....
curleybap 4 years ago
p.s i think Golden Fleece may have died from a twisted gut or colic.
shaffi1 4 years ago
Hope you enjoy seeing this Video of whom i think was Nijinsky's best son, in terms of ability at least.
Golden Fleece never ran again after this win,
and retired unbeaten. A real pity when you consider what he did to Assert prior to his Epsom victory.
This horse was a physical monster! and had tremendous talent, unfortunately unsoundness deprived him of realising his full potential.
shaffi1 4 years ago