Mankind created the Gods. Then a group of people created a God and believed that this God was the true God and all other Gods were false gods. Guess what? Still no proof for the existance of any Gods, let alone the one true God. Plus when you realize that the bible is filled with scientific errors, superstition, and magic, not to mention horrible evil, then it becomes clear that the biblical God is just another made up deity. Only sheep need shephards. Live free by choosing Atheism.
According to the Bible, the temple was about the size of 2 modern 2-story buildings. That's it. Yet, the bible reads that 7 million pounds of gold & 75 thousand pounds of silver went into it.
The actual dimensions of the temple were 90 feet long, 30 feet wide, and 45 feet high. That's not big at all! Yet it supposedly took 183,000+ men 7 years to build it!!!! LOL
"Then Jesus cried again with a loud voice and breathed his last. The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. After his resurrection they came out of the tombs and entered the holy city and appeared to many."
This story is found in Matthew only. Most religious scholars do not accept this as being a genuine event and believe it to be a dramatic rendition.
It's not an appeal to majority. The gospel of Matthew lists an unlikely story that is not listed by the other gospels. Most religious authorities agree that the story is not real but was a later dramatic rendition ment to reinforce the divinity of Jesus. Well, guess what. It's still proof that the bible contains false things. Why? Because it's mythology.
"Fables should be taught as fables, myths as myths, & miracles as poetic fancies. To teach superstitions as truths is a most terrible thing. The child mind accepts & believes them, & only through great pain & perhaps tragedy can he be in after years relieved of them. In fact, men will fight for a superstition quite as quickly as for a living truth --- often more so, since a superstition is so intangible you cannot get at it to refute it..."
Yea, it is bondage. Faith is complete bondage to irrationality. High belief for low evidence ... if that happens, you're in bondage to the same thing that Muslims, Mormons, Hindus, etc. are ...
He should chang the title of his blog to "Christianity Debunked" as Thomas Paine destroyed it about 200 years ago. Its a shame more people haven't read his work.
He simply pointed out a myriad of contradictions within the book. If all witnesses tell the same story it doesn't necessarily make the story true, but if the witnesses tell a different story, there is falsehood in that story. To attribute God with falsefood is an obvious blashphemy.
Well I know a little bit about contradictions, and I have read the Bible many times now, so again if you could be more specific it would be helpful. By the way, witnesses tell different stories all the time. If two witnesses in court give the exact same story there is strong probability that the two have worked together on a lie. Matching stories are fishy, stories which include different details and are told from different perspectives are more likely to be genuine.
There are hundreds of contradictions, here is just one example. On the day of resurrection, Luke says Jesus first met his discpiles in Gaillee, Matthew says it was in Jerusalem. Gailee is 70 miles north of Jerusalem, at least one of these "witnesses" is wrong.
There are tons of contradictions in the bible. Was Jesus born in Nazereth or Bethleham? Was Jesus crucified on the day before passover or on the first day of passover? Was 7 of every animal or 2 of every animal (Noah)?
Jim Merrit composed a list in 1992 of biblical errors titled, "A List Of Biblical Contradictions". It can be viewed online.
The Internet can be a great tool, but it is not the greatest place to find such alleged problems with Scripture. Have you read the relevant Christian literature regarding these alleged "contradictions"? Have you studied the Bible at all for yourself rather than going on the hearsay of Internet sites?
In Science, the claim of inerrancy is not allowed. Everything must be potentionally falsifiable. If something is unfalsifiable, hence inerrant, then it must be discarded.
When Christians claim inerrancy for the Bible, what they are truly claiming is that they will twist the meaning and interpretation of the Bible in order to prevent the bible from being wrong. Case in point, a post I read a couple of hours ago. A woman claims that the bible does not say to kill gays...
(continued)...that God means that he will kill gays, not for his people to kill gays. The woman realizes that murder is wrong and she believes the bible is inerrant, so therefore she twists the meaning by making it seem as if the bible is not saying what it is truly saying. The truth is that God commanded his people to stone to death gays and other breakers of the religious law. That's the cold hard truth.
Starting in Genesis the bible has been twisted to make it "true".
Deism was an attempt to reform Christianity by ridding it of untruths and superstition. Unfortunately, the same arguments Deists used against Christianity were also used by Atheists to disprove God, hence why most Deists became Atheists. The Deist version of God still survives in Freemasonry as, "The Architect", as the Deist God only created the universe and doesn't play an active role in it. In simpler terms the Deist God doesn't answer prayers and no miracles either.
I mean do you really think I do not know what deism is? If by seeing the light you mean becoming something other than a Christian then no, I have not seen it. I have been studying other positions my entire life, do you really think your shallow understanding of the biblical text as expressed through com boxes (of all places) is going to turn me? You will need to do much better than this. Perhaps when I get the Internet back up we can schedule a debate. I would very much enjoy that.
I never stated you didn't understand deism. I simply stated you haven't responded to my contradiction. If you have an answer, I'd love to hear it. Here it is again:
"On the day of resurrection, Luke says Jesus first met his discpiles in Gaillee, Matthew says it was in Jerusalem. Gailee is 70 miles north of Jerusalem, at least one of these "witnesses" is wrong."
Thanks for your response! Three comments. 1) No one can be certain about much of anything. 2) I should've said that Christians "believe they are right about everything they affirm with absolute confidence." In other words, that which they affirm with this false sense of absolute confidence is also that which they believe they are right about. And the Christians I was speaking about, you, must believe a whole host of things with this confidence. 3) I cannot say everything in one video.
I do not expect everything to be said in one video, and thank you for clarification (with #2), Your first point in your comment here seems to concede that certainty is possible, but it just is not clear to me why it cannot be had in the Christian's claims. Thanks.
100% certainty can not honestly be had until you die and meet Jesus face to face. Until then it's all just beliefs, feelings and reinforcing those beliefs and feelings with prayer, fellowship, the Bible, and other pro-Christian texts. Trust me, I did it for well over 20 years and had myself totally convinced. I am not certain of my beliefs now, I might just be incredibly surprised to meet Jesus face to face in an afterlife, and if he is as you hold him to be then I am in deep trouble.
How does examining the scriptures with no foreknowledge of a Triune God beg the question? I did not say examine them assuming there is no Triune God. In fact examining them assuming there is a Triune God is begging the question, not the other way around.
I think you posted on the wrong video. I am referring to the claim that Christians cannot have certainty. You just repeated again that they can not, after I wrote, "it just is not clear to me why it [certainty] cannot be had in the Christian's claims".
You are correct. That's the problem when I have multiple tabs open. But then I'm more confused now. How does my above comment commit the logical fallacy of begging the question?
My question is why certainty cannot be had in the Christian's claims, because that is the "fault" of Christians in Loftus' video. You replied by saying that Christians cannot have certainty.
Ummm...because you can't be truly certain. Really...how can you be certain that anything will happen? For all we know the sun could go super nova tonight and we'd all be toast. Yes, I know Christians feel really, really strongly about Christianity's message, but until you're looking Jesus in the face and he's telling you that you're a sheep and not a goat, you won't know for sure. You do understand how many variants of Christian theology there are right? They can't all be right.
My question is why certainty cannot be had in the Christian's claims. Your answer - "because you can't be truly certain". My question is why not? There are many things I am certain about, and I am sure there are many you are also certain about. I find it highly unlikely that the sun will blow out "tonight", but I am not certain that it will not. That is a different kind of claim than that of the truth of Christianity though. And you're right, they cannot all be right. So?
Ok, maybe we are going about this the wrong way. I find it probable that there are things we both find probable, but I'm not certain. I'm certain that we are both misunderstanding the other's point. You find it highly unlikely that the sun will go super nova, because it has come up every day of your life. How many days have you died and met your maker face to face? On what is your certainty about Christianity based?
I'm with you monolihtma. There's no such thing as "absolute" certainty. Human beings are imperfect so therefore can never be "absolutely certain" about anything. We can be right sometimes, but never all the time. To claim with all certainity something to be true, especially a belief that cannot be backed up with proof, then it is likely such belief is uncertain.
John addresses fundamentalist Christians specifically, not all Christendom. Now if one believes that fundamentalist Christians are the only true Christians then, yes he is addressing all Christians.
His video, and it is his first, so give the guy a break, was in a casual, conversational style. Your videos aren't going to win any Emmys either. I'm sure John will post more in depth videos in the future. For the real meat and potatoes one needs to visit his website Debunking Christianity.
I didn't say he addressed all Christians, you need to watch the video again.
I don't care to "win any Emmys", but I am not going to give people breaks either for making no sense while simultaneously calling others' beliefs delusional.
Have you read every post on his site? Just because you disagree with the information there does not mean you can just flippantly dismiss it. I think most, if not all, Christian apologists are full of crap, but I think they do have a lot of profound things to say, and would say that they have plenty of meat and potatoes to share.
"I think affirming a belief tentatively is distinct from what Christians do."
It is in some cases, but certainly not all. Claiming certainty for some belief x does not exlude the person from holding y tentatively. I am sorry I was not more clear about that.
No it doesn't, but you are certain about x as a Christian and I think that's the distinction between a Christian and holding all beliefs tentatively, (which is what I think Loftus is saying, at least it's what I'm saying). Are you arguing that, "holding all beliefs tentatively" is an affirmation of sorts?
You can affirm a belief tentatively, I think you granted that already. I agree, I think Loftus is saying what you gathered, but I wanted to clarify the very minor point above. By the way, many non-Christians claim that certainty is possible (G.E. Moore might be a good example). I simply do not understand what the problem is Loftus is trying to point out. In terms of my disagreements with you in the comments here, I do not think there are any.
I think affirming a belief tentatively is distinct from what Christians do. Critical to being Christian (in most definitions) is affirming/accepting a belief without possibility of question.
If you have a black box w/something in it that's impossible to open. After shaking it, I tentatively affirm it's an object 1" in diameter. I leave open it could be something else.
your last comment was 7 months ago, have you become an atheist yet? It shouldn't have taken this long.
If by chance you haven't become one yet, then just keep doing more research on your religion, you'll get there sure enough.
stevenstreet483 1 year ago
Mankind created the Gods. Then a group of people created a God and believed that this God was the true God and all other Gods were false gods. Guess what? Still no proof for the existance of any Gods, let alone the one true God. Plus when you realize that the bible is filled with scientific errors, superstition, and magic, not to mention horrible evil, then it becomes clear that the biblical God is just another made up deity. Only sheep need shephards. Live free by choosing Atheism.
BoyintheMachine 2 years ago
Another false thing in the Bible:
Just how big was the temple of Solomon?
According to the Bible, the temple was about the size of 2 modern 2-story buildings. That's it. Yet, the bible reads that 7 million pounds of gold & 75 thousand pounds of silver went into it.
The actual dimensions of the temple were 90 feet long, 30 feet wide, and 45 feet high. That's not big at all! Yet it supposedly took 183,000+ men 7 years to build it!!!! LOL
Verses:
1 Ki 6:2, 5:13-16, 6:38
1 Chr 22:14
BoyintheMachine 2 years ago
Matthew 27:50-53
"Then Jesus cried again with a loud voice and breathed his last. The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. After his resurrection they came out of the tombs and entered the holy city and appeared to many."
This story is found in Matthew only. Most religious scholars do not accept this as being a genuine event and believe it to be a dramatic rendition.
Big clue that the bible has false things.
The Bible = Mythology
BoyintheMachine 2 years ago
Imagine if I wrote, "Most people believe that God exists, big clue that atheism is wrong". Would you accept that reasoning as well?
This is an appeal to majority which is a fallacy.
ShadowCLB 2 years ago
It's not an appeal to majority. The gospel of Matthew lists an unlikely story that is not listed by the other gospels. Most religious authorities agree that the story is not real but was a later dramatic rendition ment to reinforce the divinity of Jesus. Well, guess what. It's still proof that the bible contains false things. Why? Because it's mythology.
BoyintheMachine 2 years ago
"Fables should be taught as fables, myths as myths, & miracles as poetic fancies. To teach superstitions as truths is a most terrible thing. The child mind accepts & believes them, & only through great pain & perhaps tragedy can he be in after years relieved of them. In fact, men will fight for a superstition quite as quickly as for a living truth --- often more so, since a superstition is so intangible you cannot get at it to refute it..."
-Hypatia of Alexandria (Killed by Christians)
BoyintheMachine 2 years ago
Yea, it is bondage. Faith is complete bondage to irrationality. High belief for low evidence ... if that happens, you're in bondage to the same thing that Muslims, Mormons, Hindus, etc. are ...
redchango 2 years ago
He should chang the title of his blog to "Christianity Debunked" as Thomas Paine destroyed it about 200 years ago. Its a shame more people haven't read his work.
RobotzAreAwesome 3 years ago
In what way did he do that? Perhaps you could be more specific so that I can be as confident as you about Deism.
ShadowCLB 3 years ago
He simply pointed out a myriad of contradictions within the book. If all witnesses tell the same story it doesn't necessarily make the story true, but if the witnesses tell a different story, there is falsehood in that story. To attribute God with falsefood is an obvious blashphemy.
RobotzAreAwesome 3 years ago
Well I know a little bit about contradictions, and I have read the Bible many times now, so again if you could be more specific it would be helpful. By the way, witnesses tell different stories all the time. If two witnesses in court give the exact same story there is strong probability that the two have worked together on a lie. Matching stories are fishy, stories which include different details and are told from different perspectives are more likely to be genuine.
ShadowCLB 3 years ago
There are hundreds of contradictions, here is just one example. On the day of resurrection, Luke says Jesus first met his discpiles in Gaillee, Matthew says it was in Jerusalem. Gailee is 70 miles north of Jerusalem, at least one of these "witnesses" is wrong.
RobotzAreAwesome 3 years ago
There are tons of contradictions in the bible. Was Jesus born in Nazereth or Bethleham? Was Jesus crucified on the day before passover or on the first day of passover? Was 7 of every animal or 2 of every animal (Noah)?
Jim Merrit composed a list in 1992 of biblical errors titled, "A List Of Biblical Contradictions". It can be viewed online.
BoyintheMachine 2 years ago
The Internet can be a great tool, but it is not the greatest place to find such alleged problems with Scripture. Have you read the relevant Christian literature regarding these alleged "contradictions"? Have you studied the Bible at all for yourself rather than going on the hearsay of Internet sites?
ShadowCLB 2 years ago
Nice try. :) Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way.
The Christian religion is based on inerrancy. Christianity can never be wrong, therefore it can never be right.
"Fear is the mother of all Gods. Nature can do all things without their meddling."
-Lucretius
"All formal dogmatic religions are fallacious and must never be accepted by self-respecting persons as final."
-Hypatia of Alexandria (She was later tortured, murdered, & set on fire by a Christian mob in a Church)
BoyintheMachine 2 years ago
"The Christian religion is based on inerrancy. Christianity can never be wrong, therefore it can never be right."
The conclusion does not at all follow from the premises.
ShadowCLB 2 years ago
In Science, the claim of inerrancy is not allowed. Everything must be potentionally falsifiable. If something is unfalsifiable, hence inerrant, then it must be discarded.
When Christians claim inerrancy for the Bible, what they are truly claiming is that they will twist the meaning and interpretation of the Bible in order to prevent the bible from being wrong. Case in point, a post I read a couple of hours ago. A woman claims that the bible does not say to kill gays...
BoyintheMachine 2 years ago
(continued)...that God means that he will kill gays, not for his people to kill gays. The woman realizes that murder is wrong and she believes the bible is inerrant, so therefore she twists the meaning by making it seem as if the bible is not saying what it is truly saying. The truth is that God commanded his people to stone to death gays and other breakers of the religious law. That's the cold hard truth.
Starting in Genesis the bible has been twisted to make it "true".
BoyintheMachine 2 years ago
Deism was an attempt to reform Christianity by ridding it of untruths and superstition. Unfortunately, the same arguments Deists used against Christianity were also used by Atheists to disprove God, hence why most Deists became Atheists. The Deist version of God still survives in Freemasonry as, "The Architect", as the Deist God only created the universe and doesn't play an active role in it. In simpler terms the Deist God doesn't answer prayers and no miracles either.
BoyintheMachine 2 years ago
This is true. And it appears CB hasn't responded to my last comment or made a video in 5 months. Perhaps he's seen the light? That'd be awesome.
RobotzAreAwesome 2 years ago
I mean do you really think I do not know what deism is? If by seeing the light you mean becoming something other than a Christian then no, I have not seen it. I have been studying other positions my entire life, do you really think your shallow understanding of the biblical text as expressed through com boxes (of all places) is going to turn me? You will need to do much better than this. Perhaps when I get the Internet back up we can schedule a debate. I would very much enjoy that.
ShadowCLB 2 years ago
I never stated you didn't understand deism. I simply stated you haven't responded to my contradiction. If you have an answer, I'd love to hear it. Here it is again:
"On the day of resurrection, Luke says Jesus first met his discpiles in Gaillee, Matthew says it was in Jerusalem. Gailee is 70 miles north of Jerusalem, at least one of these "witnesses" is wrong."
RobotzAreAwesome 2 years ago
Yet another very smart theist on youtube.
Wouldn't want to be John Loftus.
bushfingers 3 years ago
John will have nothing to do with honest skepticism. Tektonics and Tektoonics has scores of material exposing the bullshitter that is John Loftus.
migkillertwo 3 years ago
Thanks for your response! Three comments. 1) No one can be certain about much of anything. 2) I should've said that Christians "believe they are right about everything they affirm with absolute confidence." In other words, that which they affirm with this false sense of absolute confidence is also that which they believe they are right about. And the Christians I was speaking about, you, must believe a whole host of things with this confidence. 3) I cannot say everything in one video.
C'ya.
Johnwloftus 3 years ago
Haha I just want to be the guy that says "are you certain no one can be certain about much of anything?"...ok ok now its been done.
parkerjd1112 3 years ago
I do not expect everything to be said in one video, and thank you for clarification (with #2), Your first point in your comment here seems to concede that certainty is possible, but it just is not clear to me why it cannot be had in the Christian's claims. Thanks.
ShadowCLB 3 years ago
100% certainty can not honestly be had until you die and meet Jesus face to face. Until then it's all just beliefs, feelings and reinforcing those beliefs and feelings with prayer, fellowship, the Bible, and other pro-Christian texts. Trust me, I did it for well over 20 years and had myself totally convinced. I am not certain of my beliefs now, I might just be incredibly surprised to meet Jesus face to face in an afterlife, and if he is as you hold him to be then I am in deep trouble.
monolithtma 3 years ago
That still does not answer my question, but it does beg the question.
ShadowCLB 3 years ago
How does examining the scriptures with no foreknowledge of a Triune God beg the question? I did not say examine them assuming there is no Triune God. In fact examining them assuming there is a Triune God is begging the question, not the other way around.
monolithtma 3 years ago
I think you posted on the wrong video. I am referring to the claim that Christians cannot have certainty. You just repeated again that they can not, after I wrote, "it just is not clear to me why it [certainty] cannot be had in the Christian's claims".
ShadowCLB 3 years ago
You are correct. That's the problem when I have multiple tabs open. But then I'm more confused now. How does my above comment commit the logical fallacy of begging the question?
monolithtma 3 years ago
My question is why certainty cannot be had in the Christian's claims, because that is the "fault" of Christians in Loftus' video. You replied by saying that Christians cannot have certainty.
ShadowCLB 3 years ago
Ummm...because you can't be truly certain. Really...how can you be certain that anything will happen? For all we know the sun could go super nova tonight and we'd all be toast. Yes, I know Christians feel really, really strongly about Christianity's message, but until you're looking Jesus in the face and he's telling you that you're a sheep and not a goat, you won't know for sure. You do understand how many variants of Christian theology there are right? They can't all be right.
monolithtma 3 years ago
My question is why certainty cannot be had in the Christian's claims. Your answer - "because you can't be truly certain". My question is why not? There are many things I am certain about, and I am sure there are many you are also certain about. I find it highly unlikely that the sun will blow out "tonight", but I am not certain that it will not. That is a different kind of claim than that of the truth of Christianity though. And you're right, they cannot all be right. So?
ShadowCLB 3 years ago
Ok, maybe we are going about this the wrong way. I find it probable that there are things we both find probable, but I'm not certain. I'm certain that we are both misunderstanding the other's point. You find it highly unlikely that the sun will go super nova, because it has come up every day of your life. How many days have you died and met your maker face to face? On what is your certainty about Christianity based?
monolithtma 3 years ago
I'm with you monolihtma. There's no such thing as "absolute" certainty. Human beings are imperfect so therefore can never be "absolutely certain" about anything. We can be right sometimes, but never all the time. To claim with all certainity something to be true, especially a belief that cannot be backed up with proof, then it is likely such belief is uncertain.
BoyintheMachine 2 years ago
John addresses fundamentalist Christians specifically, not all Christendom. Now if one believes that fundamentalist Christians are the only true Christians then, yes he is addressing all Christians.
His video, and it is his first, so give the guy a break, was in a casual, conversational style. Your videos aren't going to win any Emmys either. I'm sure John will post more in depth videos in the future. For the real meat and potatoes one needs to visit his website Debunking Christianity.
monolithtma 3 years ago
I didn't say he addressed all Christians, you need to watch the video again.
I don't care to "win any Emmys", but I am not going to give people breaks either for making no sense while simultaneously calling others' beliefs delusional.
There is no meat and potatoes.
ShadowCLB 3 years ago
Have you read every post on his site? Just because you disagree with the information there does not mean you can just flippantly dismiss it. I think most, if not all, Christian apologists are full of crap, but I think they do have a lot of profound things to say, and would say that they have plenty of meat and potatoes to share.
monolithtma 3 years ago
"I think affirming a belief tentatively is distinct from what Christians do."
It is in some cases, but certainly not all. Claiming certainty for some belief x does not exlude the person from holding y tentatively. I am sorry I was not more clear about that.
ShadowCLB 3 years ago
No it doesn't, but you are certain about x as a Christian and I think that's the distinction between a Christian and holding all beliefs tentatively, (which is what I think Loftus is saying, at least it's what I'm saying). Are you arguing that, "holding all beliefs tentatively" is an affirmation of sorts?
owheydusoapsk 3 years ago
You can affirm a belief tentatively, I think you granted that already. I agree, I think Loftus is saying what you gathered, but I wanted to clarify the very minor point above. By the way, many non-Christians claim that certainty is possible (G.E. Moore might be a good example). I simply do not understand what the problem is Loftus is trying to point out. In terms of my disagreements with you in the comments here, I do not think there are any.
ShadowCLB 3 years ago
I think affirming a belief tentatively is distinct from what Christians do. Critical to being Christian (in most definitions) is affirming/accepting a belief without possibility of question.
owheydusoapsk 3 years ago
If you have a black box w/something in it that's impossible to open. After shaking it, I tentatively affirm it's an object 1" in diameter. I leave open it could be something else.
owheydusoapsk 3 years ago