Second American Revolution: George Grant (3 of 7)

[fightforyourrights9]

This new form of self interest is very dangerous to society. Laws cannot stop this behavoir. Even if you're personal philosophy falls in line with the law, it doesn't mean you need the Bible or some divine doctrine to be that way. The universe is chaos, and humans desperately try to control that chaos to feel secure. This is the basis of all religious and secular law. Buddhism is probably the best philosophy which combines the two.

[fightforyourrights9]

The problem with laws and humans is this. Whether the law be decreed by some supposed divine being or by man, the law will be broken by someone for their personal gain. People have been murdering for millennia and will continue to murder if they think it is in their interest. For animals (including humans), self interest is all about survival. However, due to our increased technology, basic surivival is less of a concern, so self interest has morphed into a desire for more material things.

[whoo689]

Or how about gambling? Even in the modern age, there are still some backward ultraconservative folks who think GAMBLING is wrong. Who the hell knows why. And yet, should we make that law if a majority of the people think it's wrong?? Even if gambling doesn't really hurt society, and people should be FREE to make their own choices? This is not a democracy; it's a republic.

[whoo689]

Besides, even if morality is the basis for all law, I think that's kind of a backward primitive way of legislating. We need more advanced reasons for making something illegal than simply "It's wrong.". Should people be forbidden from paying for hookers? I say no. And yet, it's illegal. Why?? B/c some backward Bible-thumping right-wingers think it's "wrong" to pay for sex or whore yourself. Yet it doesn't hurt the people who consent to it. It's fine!

[FleetoJesus]

@whoo689

Are you serious? Have you reflected on this for more that a nanosecond? Zip up your zipper and go preach your wisdom to all those enslaved by the sex trade, all the minors and runaways preyed upon by the wicked.

[whoo689]

Only the dumbest, most invasive laws are about codifying morality, like victimless crime laws. Murder, rape, etc. are illegal not because we think it's wrong but because they HARM SOCIETY. We need to protect society from murderers, rapists, etc. and lock them up. At least that's how I see it. You don't need to legislate morality just to make something law. There are plenty of other good reasons to make laws. Legislating morality is too simplistic.

[kuken3000]

Legislation is the law...But the law don't say, everything you do is wrong.

If you want to kill some, the legislation do not say it's wrong.

The legislation says if you take someone right to live...you will get punished.

But not that's wrong...Maybe in your mind is the right thing to do.

But you will get punished for taking someones right to live

[11889music]

It is this very type of simple-minded paranoia that causes the most meaningless debates to arise. Too, post-modernists discussions can wind up going around in circles of debate, but they at least leave it open to discussion. You simply state your opinions and claim that your opinions are given to you directly by God via the hands/minds of MEN. This is why there will never be hope for these kinds of people: You have refused to open your eyes. To clear yourself of cultural conditioning.

[Jomammacita]

Why don't you try a public debate with this guy and see how you and your position fairs? You will not find the simple minded at the other end of table. By calling what you heard here simple-minded paranoia you try to vilify what you can not contend against with an ad hominem abusive statement. Try listening to more of what he has to say. It may be enlightening and even encouraging. Ultimately he speaks of hope and who doesn't need or want hope.

[thomaserossi]

Postmodernism is anti-realist and anti-reason. Don't pretend to understand the open mindedness of Postmodernism, because it's not. Postmodernism is a collectivist faith in all respects which results from Kant's denial of reason and reality. But even this is clear in your proclaimations:

"You have refused to open your eyes. To clear yourself of cultural conditioning."

You pretend to be open minded then resort to culture wars. Postmoderism is product of Leftist failures in the real world.

[11889music]

The two moral absolutes that you have used in your examples, Sir, were established long before the Bible. It is to utterly ignore human history to say that these moral absolutes originate with the Bible. The Vedic scriptures establish these moral truths long before Judaism and were most likely verbally passed down for centuries prior to their writing.

[jcr4runner]

Moral truth existed from the beginning. The Bible teaches it originated from God's character, not from the scriptures. The scriptures merely express it in an inspired manner.

[11889music]

So, you believe in a book that states moral truths and their origins AFTER many other people state them? It can be equally argued that anyone writing a spiritual text does so in an 'inspired manner'.

Anyways, my direct reply to your comment would be: Then why refer exclusively to the Bible when speaking of morals, moral absolutes, and law ?

[jcr4runner]

The moral laws f the Bible are specific and applicable.

For instance, all cultures agree that murder is sin.

However, the Bible defines it.

Does it apply to all people or just citizens (as in Roman law)?

What about the difference between premeditated killing and manslaughter? The Bible defines this as well.

Pagan and humanistic systems are invariably arbitrary and disrespect human life. Biblical standards are the most fair and the most respectful of all people.

[jcr4runner]

Anyone may be inspired, the Bible shows that reprobate people prophesied and did miracles.

But only biblical scripture is inspired and INERRANT.

[theTrenchantObdurate]

What a cop out. Every time some one tells a fundie "oh by the way we have evidence that these things existed in cultures long before the abrahamic religions." You respond with "Oh thats because god existed before them."

Circles make poor arguments , Sir.

[fruitofspirit]

Excellent points!

[anagnostopoulos88]

*are indicative of any law crafted in the imagination of questionable historical figures. I will take Locke and Jefferson over the tyranny of an illusory sky-god-despot.

[anagnostopoulos88]

This is very silly, the ten commandments are not the first examples of laws that typify the universal "thou shall not steal; kill" that are represented in earlier or geographically distinct legal codes in the globe. I would prefer laws derived from humanism or rationalism over the dubious morality of the ancient civilization that for a few hundred years occupied Palestine. Rape (of Canaan), Homicide (near miss with son of Abraham), and Prostitution (again advocated by "God's man" Lot in Sodom)

[jcr4runner]

First, God's Law never condones rape, homicide or prostitituion.

Isaac was not killed; rape was never commanded in the conquest of Canaan; Lot did not advocate prostitution, he resisted it.

Second, laws based on humanism have condoned these crimes.

[voskresene]

Thanks for posting this. I had never given theonomy much thought.  I surely sympathize with their point of view now. On the other hand, my decision to live abroad seems all the more logical when I look at some of the things people have posted here. There is no room for reasonable dialogue with people people hell bent on eradicating all traces of the influences of biblical Christianity on American culture at any cost. How can I return home when men like C. Hitchens are taken seriously?

[muttergeo]

The only problems with this is ONE there is no authority in the Constitution to legislate morality and TWO who's morality do you codify? Yours may say smoking pot or being a prostitute is immoral while Mine does not. the only law any society needs is this; When you cause damage to anothers life, liberty or property You WILL make restotution. There is no such thing as a victimless crime cos a crime has the element of damage.

[itrod123]

There is more proof that aliens exist than the proof for god. Maybe they are just manipulating us to believe what they want.

[mojohns44]

Who created the aliens? aren't they a part of the same universe that we inhabit? A universe that was created by the same God worshipped here.

No one has tricked me into believing. Faith comes from the heart, not from the government or church. Faith comes by hearing the word. If you don't listen, you can't even argue against faith intelligently.

[jaymthegenius]

Question contains potentially false assumption: Aliens were "created" by millions of years of evolution, just like we were. Very subtle mutations happen every generation, so subtle it takes millions of years to see a change.

Theres more then one faith, not all of them have a Hell myth like christianity does. Scientology says aliens were dropped into a volcano and there souls became us, christianity condones Human sacrifice (witch burnings, crusades, Iraq war, etc).

[jcr4runner]

Oh yeah. I forgot about those "aliens."

They prove evolution you say, right?

Then does their non-existence disprove it?

[jaymthegenius]

Their, they're, are, our, red, read, whatever,phonetically similiar words should have the same spelling. Considering the fact there is 200 billion stars in this galaxy we can logically deduce that Aliens exist, even if there is no physical evidence. Yet theres plenty of physical and circumstantial evidence for their existence if you know where to look.

[jcr4runner]

It always is amazing to me that atheists are willing to believe in aliens with no proof but not in God. We have Jesus' testimony. There is no "alien" Gospel.

[WSSIIWarlordII]

Maybe you should stop watching so much TV. LOL

[maggoli67]

PF Boller, Jr. and J George, They Never Said It: A Book of Fake Quotes, Misquotes, and Misleading Attributions (OUP, 1989)

[beancube2008]

Which commandments, such as kill, steal, lie, pervert, trespass, ... the founding father of ours not violated?

[mojohns44]

I'm really sorry you lack enough education in history and the foundations of religion to avoid making this comment.

Of course these men had failings, ALL men do. But that doesn't mean that ordinary men can't produce something extraordinary. You cheer for athletes who lie, steal, cheat and sometimes kill. You don't let their failings keep you from rooting for your team.

[superbaddeathmachine]

Whoa! Whoa now! The Nazi's were Christian! Who is this guy!?

[jcr4runner]

The Nazis were pagans who worshiped the Norse gods and practiced mysticism.

[seathanaich]

Morality predates all human religions by thousands of years. I don't need a religion to tell me that killing and stealing are bad - humans, including ancient Jews, knew this long before it was written in the Old Testament. Morality is always a conversation within societies.

[homersparents]

maybe in your magical something out of nothing world but in reality man has been religious since he could look up. thats been along time. so WRONG he looked at the stars and saw the future.

china has been atheistic for years and they rock right. look it up "fulun gong" , "organ stealing" "torture" lovely forced public beatings ending with bloody abortions. pubic executions of peaceful people who meditate.

lovely lovely atheistic world...isn't it beautiful...animals with no scruples ..

[friendlier]

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."

--John Adams

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies."

--Benjamin Franklin

[jcr4runner]

That's interesting friendlier. You picked three of the only five Deists who signed the Constitution as opposed to the 50 orthodox Christian signers.

To boot, I'll bet that you don't know the original citations for these quotes -- but you pulled them off an atheist website and assume they are 100 percent accurate and in context.

[friendlier]

Exactly. And your point is ...?

[seathanaich]

Yes, and George Washington, James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, and Thomas Paine agreed with them. These are the 6 most important men in the process, and the only ones most people can even name. Just because you don't like what they said, doesn't erase it from history!

[maggoli67]

John Adams has often been quoted as having said: "This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it."

[maggoli67]

Here's the rest of the quotation:

Twenty times, in the course of my late reading, have I been on the point of breaking out, 'this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!!!!' But in this exclamation, I should have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in public company—I mean hell.

[jcr4runner]

Great example of an out of context quote.

The 90 percent who were relgious wanted a Christian nation, not of one particular denomination, but nevertheless Christian in faith and morals.

The founders who were non-religious, Franklin, Adams, Jefferson, were religious in the sense they believed in one God, and they did not want the rest of the country to be as irreligious as they. They wanted a religious, moral people to uphold the responsibilities and rights of the new nation.

[friendlier]

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

--President George Washington (Treaty Of Tripoli, 1796)

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

--Thomas Jefferson

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and ensalve mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

--Thomas Paine

[HELLFIRE8282]

MORALITY MUST BE SELF IMPOSED!

[ARoboWizard]

Because murder's only bad if I THINK it's bad!

[seathanaich]

That is a straw man argument - making a bizarre absolute, and then attacking the absolute. This is usually done because the actual discussion is being lost.

[JemyM]

If "thou should not steal" and "thou should not kill" come from the 10 commandments, how come thoose laws was enforced in ancient egypt, greece, in asia and in russia before the bible was written?

[emmallyielaurel]

IF the state wants Jainism to be the State religion, its consitutional.

End of story. Congress can't. States can.

[jcr4runner]

It's funny how liberals say the Constitution is a "living document" and can be itnerpreted by judges to find all kinds of new rights emanating from the penumbras. Yet when we suggest that there is no separation of God and state in the Constitution, they have a fit. We agree that the federal powers should not support one church over another. The state can generally support religion in the public square, but cannot mandate religious belief or practice.

[murphycline]

The 14th Amendment changed that.

[vudumojo]

GeoffreyDinosaurs: If I may answer this one...

Yes you would be correct IF Christianity were based on Law, but it is not.

See number 6 in this series...

Read Paul and what jesus had to say in the gospels pointing out the he didn't come to abolish the law but that He completly fulfilled it once and for all because we cannot!

[jcr4runner]

Hmmm... So can the state use the Bible in prescribing capital punishment for murder or rape? Should the state require double restitution for the victims of theft. That's biblical law applied to the civil sphere. The law has nothing to do with salvation, but it is one of the uses of the law as a schoolmaster to lead people to Christ and as curb to the passions of sinners.

[seathanaich]

Sin is an artificial concept, created by the same people who invented religions. It is an attempt to make an absolute out of what should be a rational and intelligent dialogue within a society. Theists like absolutes and the comfort they give in allowing people to not have to think about things. Thinking is a difficult and painful concept for many.

[homersparents]

i have seen the way people drive and i know they have no power to think

i don't want people to have to think if its moral to kill my kids or not.

i like comfort of RULES..

[vudumojo]

AMEN BROTHER!!! That was awesome. Five stars. FREEDOM!!!

[Cashcrop650]

I believe someone sparked a good idea...You cant have a law based on this guy because what about this guy who dont like him?

ok we'll have the law based on someone who is accountable to no human on earth!

[BeatBuddy]

Of course every govenment is based on some morality! The question to ask is whether or not the morality stinks. The Philosophes and the Founding Fathers respected the conscience of the individual and the right to direct his or her life as he or she sees fit.

That is a very high standard of morality.

[jcr4runner]

You have a misunderstanding here. Christian Reconstruction seeks societal change through regeneration of individuals, not through coercion. We believe in bottom-up voluntary reformation. Also, Moses and Joshua's military operation was ordained of God as the plan for Israel, but no Reconstructionist writer has suggested that this model be copied today. There will be no genocides and concertation camps. In fact, CR views jails and prisons as unbiblical.

[GeoffreyDinosaurs]

I don't see a distinction between a "humanist government" (I put this in quotes because Nazi Germany was not, in any enlightened understanding of the term, a humanist society) commiting genocide and the Israelites commiting genocide and infanticide in Exodus, Numbers, etc. Genocide, concentration camps and ethno-religious cleansing will inevitably become the policy of a reconstructionist/dominionist "Christian Republic".