I love GOD of the Universe. I do not love religions--some religions have condoned the killing of people who were not religious and/or were not members of their particular religion. Being angry with religions is not the same as being angry with GOD. Religions are human creations--humans are to be blamed for the actions of religions--not GOD!
This is a logical discourse on spirituality and religion from the viewpoints of these panelists--religion and spirituality are flimsy subjects that evaporate like water and flow like water or in some instances flow more like gases and have nothing substantial for one to intellectually grasp hold of--that is what makes them spiritual in nature. Also, I believe that the term 'compassion' could replace the term 'spirituality' and this would more closely define what is meant by "spiritual values."
@jmgibbs53 So essentially your saying there is no intellectual traction in ideas of spirituality unless you completely re frame and almost redefine spiritual values as compassionate values?
There is no logic to that? The logic there would be to admit the lack of substance pertaining to spirituality and stop posing compassionate values under some mystical guise.
@mrgejwaites That would sum it up nicely--there is a bit of a fudge factor to work in relation to "logic" assessments--I personally prefer compassionate values being spiritual values--otherwise spiritual values are equivalent to the love expressed by concrete. The 'mystical guise' is waht makes life fun--that something there beyond our human reach--hidden behind the veil of GOD. That little instance of synchronicity when everything goes right or wrong--those things some often label as GOD. :)
@jmgibbs53 I find the whole first half of your comment hard to read, it doesn't seem to make sense. You seem to agree with me, but then you say you still like your "spiritual values" then you mention love from concrete.
The mystical guise is what makes it fun? Yes perhaps in child psychology the mystery of santa claus fascinates kids but as adults we must not base our beliefs on what's fun. When things often go right or wrong people do attribute it to deities, but in reality it's just chance.
@mrgejwaites It is very difficult to make sense when discussing spirituality when we do not have a common reference point for concepts of reality. Spirituality without a core of compassionate values is meaningless dribble to me. My concept of spirituality is of compassion for other humans and animals--their well being and happiness are what is important to me. Without this--spirituality is nothing but floating poltergeists and pixie dust. Without compassion is like love from concrete--nothing!
@jmgibbs53 I don't follow your logic. Your description of spiritual values is essentially the definition of compassionate values, but renamed. Strange, and somewhat pointless. Please point out the difference between your "spiritual values" and compassionate values.
@mrgejwaites Yes--this whole thing is rather pointless. "Spiritual" implies, to me, something supernatural--I do not believe in the existence of the supernatural. Compassionate values are what people have when feeling the sorrow for the suffering of others--this is a physical reality--not a supernatural realm event. I hope that this clarifies my position and concept of this matter.
@jmgibbs53 "The 'mystical guise' is waht makes life fun--that something there beyond our human reach--hidden behind the veil of GOD. " - Yet you do not believe in the supernatural?
You seem to be contradicting previous implications.
Regardless if your position is that you do not buy into this "spiritual value" b.s then we are in agreement.
@mrgejwaites We are in agreement, my friend! No contradictions--all that exist (energy/matter) emerges from Quantum Mechanical Energy or whatever energy is the fundamental energy of the Universe--and I consider this energy to be GOD/Nature--it is all natural--not supernatural. I do not believe in the existence of a supernatural realm. I believe that all that exist is natural! The spiritual value mysticism is nonsense, in my opinion. The understanding of the Universe is plainly before our eyes.
These guys have to try to keep their jobs, of course we don't need religion - THEY need it to continue to make a living and leech the rest of you. They need you to keep buying in, no answers here just circle babble.
I think it may also prove helpful to some of the viewers here to try to evaluate many of the more strident claims of the anti-theist critique ("brights") from a ideological/ metaphysics perspective. Check out the recent article by Jackson Lears in the May 16, 2011 issue of the The Nation entitled "Same Old New Atheism" .The article offers a compelling analysis of Sam Harris' works. Consideration is given to general secularist social perspective
I don't think all the people who disliked this video watched it, they are all very liberal panelists and do not bash atheism at all. The rabbi's speech at the end about how capitalism is a religion and its underlying assumptions need to be challenged is very radical and I think absolutely dead on. I am an atheist btw.
The babble about Atheism by religious people is nonsensical blaming it for homosexuality, unwanted pregnancies, Las Vegas & the rest. Man has come of age. Internet has brought individuals close. They discuss important issues of their needs & circumstance, discovering that Abraham's God is jealous, dictatorial, narcissist, chauvinistic & cruel. Atheism is release from religions. Morality? Whose? Killing a human in God's name? Religious Values? Dividing Earthlings? Exploiting the weak?
These religions are giving away so much of there dogma and yielding to scientific fact now that I really think (hope) we are seeing the death throes of religion. Admiting you dont need religion to be moral is the begining of the end. Why cant we just teach kids the importance of morals and empathy in a healthy society instead of using fear tactics, or just as bad, the lure of paradise after death.
These are really helpful articulations of particular places where people might find themselves with respect to the word "spiritual" and the notion of "values" and where those values show up. (i.e, in particular religious communities, or not.) To Prothero's point, I think one piece of the practice of responsible spirituality is a commitment to learning some about the tradition where your "practice" (yoga or meditation) comes from. The HarperOne guy also has a good point about Dawkins, Hitchens.
We have visions on how the world SHOULD be and we act on them" Dont you see sir? This is the exact problem with religion. You may have your views of God or whoever else you choose to believe but Dnt tell my children it is what is correct or tell me I shall be eternally punished because I have a healthy attitude to sex. Stephen Fry put it better than I can. "The only people who have a problem with food are anorexics or morbidly obese people." The church is the one with severe sex desires
Well at least they weren't so blind that they pretend religion is the only source of morality. However you can see how ingrained their contempt for Atheism is. They all talk about Atheists as "angry" or being Atheist because something went wrong. None of them seem to accept that someone could be Atheist simply through reasoning. Until religious people accept this, there will always be a wall between Atheists and religious. Likewise Atheists have to stop thinking all religious are stupid.
What's funny is... the "book" or these idiots won't answer the question of... WHat kind of people were they before god gave them the "Law"?, they didn't spawn with it moses had to get them from egypt and wonder they desert blindly... intel god intervened and saved them with his shitty law. I guess they were moral-less barbaric degenerates intel pappa came with the "Commandments"! Haahahah idiots.
It´s extremely interesting what Micheal Lerner says... The world needs to start looking at Israel and it´s policies critically without having to fear being called anti semites or BS like that
If you need a book to tell you how to live your life without making the conclusion on what your morals should be then you are no better than a lamb following the Shepard to the slaughter.
I can say religion is dumb without being angry at it. Daytime television is dumb, does that mean I'm angry at Judge Judy?
I see religion as a mental pathology; a convoluted mess of mind games that I don't have time for. There are countless better ways I could be spending my mental energy.
Can people who don't believe in fairies tell time? Can people who aren't auto mechanics still feel "love"? Can people who remain unconvinced that reptilian aliens control the world still play the piano? Can people who don't believe in Zeus still be artistic?
..how are these questions any more dumb? How about "Do we have ANY reason WHAT SO EVER to think there's ANY correlation between X and y"? How about "WTF does the word spiritual even mean"?
maudlin sums up dawkins, harris, and hitchens books with "they said religion is dumb...and that's not a good argument". Maudlin is incorrect, the books are articulate, well thought out, and sound. They are critical of religion, but they cannot be summed up with "religion is dumb" a la Maudlin's ridiculous characterization.
who the fuck wants to have spiritual values? watch paranormal activity if u want spirits...grow a set, and deal with life...drop your bible, let go of the little boys dick, and let go of god...he's not there people
It really has no meaning. And, if we take it literally, wouldn't it mean that one has to believe in "spirits" in the first place?
Maudin is ridiculous:
Maudin says that he can make the case FOR atheism better than Dawkins. This PROVES his ignorance. There is no "case" for atheism. Atheism is a LACK of a belief in god. Maudin doesn't even understand that simple point. Probably didn't even read Dawkins, and if he did, he didn't understand it.
"Why can't there be spiritual values without religion?" Really? What a loaded question, haha. Spirituality doesn't require religion to exist. Damn trolls. Haha.
sooo after centuries of murder and continuing murder of people for having different religious beliefs, people have concluded that there's more than one path to "truth"...
grow up, it just shows they're all man made and there are no paths
u just have to live a good life and give up bronze age myths
When I think spiritual values (what's the difference between spiritual values and normal values anyway...) I think compassion, and it just seems so that theists lack this a lot more than atheists.
No one can be blamed for being atheist or even anti-religious given the lack of evidence for gods and the mountains of evidence for the evils of religion.
Michael Maudlin, you are dumb. If I were you I would not go around telling people that i am religious and spiritual, because you are insulting your intelligence, providing you have any. I presume you do.
lol, I immediately knew what a panel of religious people would have to say about non-believers. Why even beg the question? It's obvious they think moral values come from scripture and so people of no faith have no ties to that moral system and thus are incapable of having moral values.
Sam was never angry or against religion. He is just trying to bring more sense to religions. And sense is something that a lot of people seem to throw out the window when it comes to their beliefs.
@DubRighteous I think perhaps the term "spiritual" in spiritual values should be replaced with "transcendent." If one holds to materialism is becomes questionable if they can hold to values which are properly thought of as transcendent. Seeing the link between materialism and atheism I can see where they might be coming from here.
@DubRighteous Idiotic...spiritual value as in a love of nature or love its self or a feeling closer to an abstract idea or concept, as a theist I can see Atheist having having spiritual values, Atheism is the denial or disbelief that a higher being"god" exist and or created the universe, please quit making atheist look like angry kids bitter at there parents, may u find your center.
Love is a feeling, what does that have to do with "spiritual values". Why would I make atheists look angry for simply asking a question? You are the one that seems a bit upset. Again what the fuck are spiritual values if you don't even know what spirit is? What you and the guy in the video expressed were just empty words that don't say anything. Just a bunch of adorning bullshit, really.
@DubRighteous A "spiritual Value" as I and others define can be a number of things one being and perhaps one of the few things organized religions brings that benefits mankind is the idea of Worshiping or revering a concept, idea, deity, or system above one's self. Often times when one can't revere something above themselves be it Love/nature/ a god figure or whatever they as a whole become shallow, self-centered and materialistic.
@DubRighteous and spirit is an abstract term with many meanings, for me its a term used to describe the human experience different from the idea of a soul that's floats on after we die. so when I as a theist say yes atheist can be spiritual that's what I mean. On matters of the spirit think more through the lens of Philosophy and poetry rather than cold logical science.
That is what you want it to mean? To me what you call spiritual values has absolutely nothing to do with religion itself, there's as much shallow, self-centered and materialistic people in any belief or disbelief. It just is completely irrelevant.
The first speaker, Mr. Maudlin, has got some nerve to claim that Dawkins and Harris don't put forth a good argument for Atheisim and then continue with some non-sense dribble that dances around the non-sense question they asked in the first place. He admits that God is not needed in order to be moral. I could have attacked Atheisim better than that, Mr. Maudlin. How sad. Maybe he doubts himself.
Maudlin lives up to his name: effusively or insincerely emotional
How can Prothero relate Protestant Faith with scepticism? He focuses on inane things about religious institues like fashion
Lerner says they are angry at God. NO! How can 1 b angry @ something 1 doesn't believe in?
They are incapable of having this discussion
"The test of a first rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function" - F. Scott Fitzgerald
SPIRITUALITY" is your emotional reaction to events and experiences...it is a chemical process in your brain .. so an "atheist" can be spiritual..and usually is..to the atheist "god" is a stumbling block to a healthy experience of reality! in a sense the atheist is the most spiritual of all for they experience reality without fear and ultimate acceptance! the atheist is a spiritual HERO!
Atheism IS NOT a religion. It is a lack of a belief in god(s) and the supernatural. It has no FOUNDING. Either you are a silly little troll or you have no understanding of what words mean. Buy a dictionary.
"Spiritual values"? The whole concept of spirituality is man made. It's make believe. Made up. Another prime example of a word in the English language being abused by it being used for a purpose it was never intended.
Quite boring exchange- so far at least. They did not even define what they were talking about- what do they mean by spirituality?? Only the rabbi had something vaguely interesting to say. If Hitchens were there, it would have been a slaughterhouse, all eaten alive by the Hitch (and rightfully so).
At the start of this video Mr. Maudlin says that Harris's and Dawkin's books are poorly argued by stressing that they are both angry at religion. The fact that they are angry does not in any way lessen the validity or persuasiveness of their arguments.
The message is clear: religion is irrational and does a disservice to the intellect of modern man.
Dumb? This man is a poor speaker while Sam Harris is a good speaker. This quality involves concisely providing views and supporting details, which is what this man didn't have.
A synonym would be Mythological Bullshit Specialist.
And a definition would be "Deluded and/or misinformed individual with insufficent skepticism and a weakness for old stories OR someone with expertise in dealing with such people."
omg.... I hate this condecending crap! Like morals without a belief in god must somehow be "justified"? People are not moral because they're religious, they are moral because they are moral! What is so hard to understand?!
Simply put spirituality, or feelings of transcendence are not the domain of religion. Atheist have spiritual values if you take away the religious meaning of spirituality. Contemplation and appreciation of the cosmos, nature, and life around us is held by many Atheists.
Meditation is an example of spirituality and just so happens to have positive health benefits, why wouldn't an Atheist meditate? Spirituality is not the domain of religion.
The religious tend to believe that you cannot be moral unless you have the fear of Hell fire hanging over your head, personal want friendship and community with others be damned. Ultimately, religion is the bureaucracy that exists between the person and a god. So, one has to get into the right religion to get in touch with a god. Of course, part of being in a religion means to have to oppose another religion because 'they don't know the way'.
who is michael maudlin... he sounds like a total moron. i also love how michael lerner admitted that he'd be an atheist if circumstances had been different.
The only one who makes close to any sense is the Rabbi. And he just talked in circles. I wanna say his message is "Whatever path you need to take spiritually, go with my blessing" but it just sounded like "Everyone's right, everyone's wrong, let's all go drink a beer and get along." (rhyme totally unintentional) Anyone translate this gobbledygook for me?
@JorgensZelda I think you got it spot on. That's the problem with moderate religious people. They try so hard to be 'tolerant' and 'acceptiing' and 'respectful', that they have this whole wishy washy, 'well, there are many paths to god or peace or spirituality (just not atheism, of course)'. They just end up saying nothing. At least with fundies, you have something to go up against, as opposed to a shifting target. They have the conviction of their beliefs...as screwed and messed up as they are.
@LostSubsForever My favorite view was actually my grandmother's. She said that she's Christian, very much Christian. Her responsibility was to give you the message and you do what you want with it. After that, as long as you're not hurting anybody, more power to you, do whatever makes you happy. You have to answer for one person: you. So, hey, on the very off-chance that there is a Judgment Day, I earned my spot in Hell and had fun on the way. :P She did the best she could. I'm just stubborn. :D
4 minutter siden "unity of all humanity, of the need to preotect the earth, the need for peace and social justice, of non-violence. Those kinds of values that i dont see any other institutions even claiming..." Damn. That Lerner seeems like a good fellow but this is BS. Both amnesty and red cross, basically claims these things as what they try to achieve. and that was just to mention 2 large non-religious institutions.
Prothero's explanation for why some reject organized religion is ridiculously superficial: they think the way the minister dresses is silly? How about because religion teaches fear and guilt to children? Tries to regulate personal behavior and sexuality? The inherent irrationality, violence, and misogyny in the bible? Submission to authority?
@MrZebesco What's the matter with regulating behavior and sexuality? Virtually all human cultures regardless of religion do that. And as for submission to authority, in order to have a proper human society you need some people to lead and other people to follow.
@JohananRaatz But follow on their own, not just following because they were told. The problem with regulating it is how you do it and to what degree, there is a difference for arresting a murderer, and threatening eternal punishment on someone who had a dirty thought.
@MrZebesco Totally agree and would also like to add that his argument/comments are massively patronising and condecending, he makes out that atheists (particularly young ones) are more bothered about what the religious bloke is wearing and are unable to have logical thoughts!
@psychobartus Are you really saying that if someone cares what another thinks then they can't have logical thoughts? Let me tell you how logical to care about someone else's thoughts is. If two men were all alone in a forest with no knowledge of where they are they must work together to learn of their whereabouts and help each other to create a better understanding of their surroundings. They have to care about each other and their thoughts to progress through this forest. There's logic for you.
@DonkeyPac Im not really sure where you are going with this! I wasnt saying that it was illogical to think about other peoples thoughts (empathy). I was saying that this Prothero bloke seems to think that the main reason people reject religion is because the sloke at the front is wearing a silly robe, I think this is patronising to all atheists who reject religion based on logical thought!
I don't understand religion... I mean, I do, but just HOW do these people fall into religion's hands? I feel that religion is for weak-minded people. All though- many things have been brought through religion. Atheism works better than religion, why? Because we ADMIT we don't know everything... But religions on the other hand, try to convince everyone that their facts are ALL true.
Michael who? Who the fuck is this guy? YOU could write a better argument than Sam Harris? Go out and write a sick argument for atheism, and put something in it about only doing it to show I could. Get real dude.
The only value in listening to these people is the confirmation that even relatively intelligent people can talk an awful lot of shite. The scary thing is the inanity of some remarks gives an understanding of how easily the theist can justify any horror....and even bestow virtue in it.
Please explain what "spiritual values" are. The way I see it they are something created as a way to attack athiests, because it is obvoius that an athiests moral values are the same as those that are religoius, and in some cases when crime is commited in the name of god can be above those of believers.
For me, the only things that come to mind are those values produced by our intrinsic human nature, rather than reasoned logic.
If this is what the question refers to then it's not worth answering by anyone with the common sense/decency to know that religion does not hold the monopoly on our humanity.
Lerner is an idiot. Seeing something as true or even "self-evident" by itself does not automatically make it a religion. This type of argument is also often used by creationists when they want to level the playing field with science. It's bogus from the get go.
Maudlin's claim to argue for atheism better than Dawkins or Harris is pathetic. He gives no example, leading me to think he is better at promoting falsehoods.
Prothero ignores the dangerous dogmatic dictate vs human hope and morality. He's just shallow.
Lerner is the only one that understands the question regarding anti-religion, he just misses that almighty God is a tyrant.
Not one of these people answered the question. How did they determine this panel? Did they just select the most immature religionists they could find?
what irks me is this guy can keep a straight face while calling Sam and Ricvhards books plain 'dumb' while his whole being is based on bronze age stories. People say 'oh Dawkins had bad 'philosophy' , well i for one think his rational thoughts have covered every base a religion can stand on. Why cant religions realise atheists are not saying we know everything. We are just saying you don't know either, so lets wait for evidence.
@KingMushroom I agree with you. I read an essay by philosopher Thomas Nagel, criticising Dawkins' philosophy in the God Delusion. He came across, to me, as being peeved that Dawkins' had strayed into his domain. I lost some respect for Nagel because of that. I am familiar with Kant and J.S. Mill and Bentham and found his synopses and analyses were accurate. He never went into too much detail and it was in the context of showing how morality can come from sources other than religion.
religious people are soo full of SHIT!!!. They try to make their religion sound sophisticated but fail so miserably. They preach away in their churches that miracles can happen and that the bible is true, and Jesus rose from the dead.....but then they defend someone deistic super inteligent designer.
Simply bring on the water into wine or FUCK off I say
I live in a community where most people parade their religion. I work at a public high school and in response to a very hateful email forward towards atheist I answered back and explained that I was an Atheist. Many of the responses I got were about going to hell. When I speak to my religious coworkers they think I am a good moral person but since I do not believe in Jesus then I deserve to go to hell. It has nothing to do with my choices but on believing one thing. That is not about morals.
@CandideNovella You might enjoy this then: "If I were not an atheist, I would believe in a God who would choose to save people on the basis of the totality of their lives and not the pattern of their words. I think he would prefer an honest and righteous atheist to a TV preacher whose every word is God, God, God, and whose every deed is foul, foul, foul." -Issac Asimov
when I grew up in christianity, my christian father commited adultery with a married chritsian woman, my christian grandfather blew his head off. my christian wife cheated on me with 2 christian married men. My christian step father molested my christian sisters.....
I am now atheist.. I have never commited adultery , I have never molested or phisicaly abused. I have never commited suicide....and I dont want to.
I love how the premise of this discussion is predicated upon an unfounded assumption - namely that religion is possessed of any moral certitude from which to judge the topic...
I would argue that any religion that promises or threatens in order to reinforce "moral" behavior isn't moral at all - but instead promotes a disguised selfishness - true morality stems not from greed or fear, but from the freedom from either to act for the benefit of mankind.
Nice commentary. I'd like to argue a minor point that the Rabbi mentioned at the end about saving the Earth (or something along those lines). Lets get it straight. The Earth's not going anywhere, not before the end of the solar system at least. I'm not sure what massive nuclear fallout would do to all life on Earth, but hell, there have been 5 mass extinction events, and the Earth's survived all of them. The issue is more about saving ourselves, a race infinitely more vulenerable than a planet
The thoughtfulness and rationality of the theists in this clip toward atheists is refreshing. If more people could get past simply attempting to demonize their enemy and actually make logical and honest considerations toward those who disagree with them, like these men did, the world would be a more peaceful and tolerant place. I would like to see a lot more politicians exhibiting this kind of consideration.
When I was Christian, I was a very good person but after college, I became atheist and started killing, stealing, and raping because I lost my moral compass (The Bible). Just kidding. Honestly, I am a much more ethical and moral person now as an atheist than I was when I was Christian. I think both my atheism and morality were products of maturity. At any rate, I have found my atheist friends to be generally more ethical than my Christian friends, because they are usually more open minded.
Dear God in Heaven Please Bless your Holy Catholic Church. Please watch over it's Priest and Nuns and keep them faithful in this world that commended your own son. Mother Mary Please Pray for Our Families. Amen
LOL spiritual values.... it's a bunch of romanticized bullshit to associate morals with god. I'm an atheis, and I still see morals. In fact I see them better than most christians do. LOL come to think of it, christians break their own religious views more than atheists do. For example, the most abortions are had by catholics. The most divorces are had by christians in general. The people most likely to cheat on their legal partners are christians.
absolutely nothing... obviously you have been smoking your bullshit opiate that is christianity. You don't even have an argument, just "No you're wrong!". Please try again once you have something to say.
michael maudlin's statements suck : first he says he could argue the point better than dawkins and then completely fails to do so. lol, what a wanker.
by the way i am on maudlins side - i just did not like his arguement at all. wayy too nice and politicaly correct and trying so hard not to offend anyone cause bejaysus you dont want to offend !!!
I don't have "spiritual values" I have morals I know the difference between right an wrong and in some cases more so than a so called "Christian" or someone that is "Spiritual" and another its absurd to think that someone would judge and write off a particular religion based on clothing their pastor wears that person is ridiculous. I also like the Rabi to an extent he's the first religious leader to say atheist or agnostic are moral or have ethics
That's not true. Any theist with a brain recognizes that atheists can (and do) live generally moral and ethical lives. Theologians and religious scholars constantly admit this.
The problem is the lack of dialogue between true atheist scholars and theologians. All of the talk is between religious fundamentalists (who are retarded) and shallow atheists (with limited thought and study into these transcendent issues).
^^ who's that first arrogant dumbass, "i could have made better arguments for atheism".
SuperStrangeLoop 2 months ago
I love GOD of the Universe. I do not love religions--some religions have condoned the killing of people who were not religious and/or were not members of their particular religion. Being angry with religions is not the same as being angry with GOD. Religions are human creations--humans are to be blamed for the actions of religions--not GOD!
jmgibbs53 4 months ago in playlist jmgibbs53's Favorited Videos
This is a logical discourse on spirituality and religion from the viewpoints of these panelists--religion and spirituality are flimsy subjects that evaporate like water and flow like water or in some instances flow more like gases and have nothing substantial for one to intellectually grasp hold of--that is what makes them spiritual in nature. Also, I believe that the term 'compassion' could replace the term 'spirituality' and this would more closely define what is meant by "spiritual values."
jmgibbs53 4 months ago
@jmgibbs53 So essentially your saying there is no intellectual traction in ideas of spirituality unless you completely re frame and almost redefine spiritual values as compassionate values?
There is no logic to that? The logic there would be to admit the lack of substance pertaining to spirituality and stop posing compassionate values under some mystical guise.
mrgejwaites 4 months ago
@mrgejwaites That would sum it up nicely--there is a bit of a fudge factor to work in relation to "logic" assessments--I personally prefer compassionate values being spiritual values--otherwise spiritual values are equivalent to the love expressed by concrete. The 'mystical guise' is waht makes life fun--that something there beyond our human reach--hidden behind the veil of GOD. That little instance of synchronicity when everything goes right or wrong--those things some often label as GOD. :)
jmgibbs53 4 months ago
@jmgibbs53 I find the whole first half of your comment hard to read, it doesn't seem to make sense. You seem to agree with me, but then you say you still like your "spiritual values" then you mention love from concrete.
The mystical guise is what makes it fun? Yes perhaps in child psychology the mystery of santa claus fascinates kids but as adults we must not base our beliefs on what's fun. When things often go right or wrong people do attribute it to deities, but in reality it's just chance.
mrgejwaites 4 months ago
@mrgejwaites It is very difficult to make sense when discussing spirituality when we do not have a common reference point for concepts of reality. Spirituality without a core of compassionate values is meaningless dribble to me. My concept of spirituality is of compassion for other humans and animals--their well being and happiness are what is important to me. Without this--spirituality is nothing but floating poltergeists and pixie dust. Without compassion is like love from concrete--nothing!
jmgibbs53 4 months ago
@jmgibbs53 I don't follow your logic. Your description of spiritual values is essentially the definition of compassionate values, but renamed. Strange, and somewhat pointless. Please point out the difference between your "spiritual values" and compassionate values.
mrgejwaites 4 months ago
@mrgejwaites Yes--this whole thing is rather pointless. "Spiritual" implies, to me, something supernatural--I do not believe in the existence of the supernatural. Compassionate values are what people have when feeling the sorrow for the suffering of others--this is a physical reality--not a supernatural realm event. I hope that this clarifies my position and concept of this matter.
jmgibbs53 4 months ago
@jmgibbs53 "The 'mystical guise' is waht makes life fun--that something there beyond our human reach--hidden behind the veil of GOD. " - Yet you do not believe in the supernatural?
You seem to be contradicting previous implications.
Regardless if your position is that you do not buy into this "spiritual value" b.s then we are in agreement.
mrgejwaites 4 months ago
@mrgejwaites We are in agreement, my friend! No contradictions--all that exist (energy/matter) emerges from Quantum Mechanical Energy or whatever energy is the fundamental energy of the Universe--and I consider this energy to be GOD/Nature--it is all natural--not supernatural. I do not believe in the existence of a supernatural realm. I believe that all that exist is natural! The spiritual value mysticism is nonsense, in my opinion. The understanding of the Universe is plainly before our eyes.
jmgibbs53 4 months ago
The title of this video is fucking hysterical.
evinado1 6 months ago
@evinado1 Yes--I thought that this title was hilarious also! The title is equivalent to "Do Atheists lack belief in the existence of GOD?" :)
jmgibbs53 4 months ago
These guys have to try to keep their jobs, of course we don't need religion - THEY need it to continue to make a living and leech the rest of you. They need you to keep buying in, no answers here just circle babble.
kahluaqueen 6 months ago
@kahluaqueen Capitalism at its best! :)
jmgibbs53 4 months ago
I think it may also prove helpful to some of the viewers here to try to evaluate many of the more strident claims of the anti-theist critique ("brights") from a ideological/ metaphysics perspective. Check out the recent article by Jackson Lears in the May 16, 2011 issue of the The Nation entitled "Same Old New Atheism" .The article offers a compelling analysis of Sam Harris' works. Consideration is given to general secularist social perspective
shieldsff 6 months ago
I don't think all the people who disliked this video watched it, they are all very liberal panelists and do not bash atheism at all. The rabbi's speech at the end about how capitalism is a religion and its underlying assumptions need to be challenged is very radical and I think absolutely dead on. I am an atheist btw.
enigmism4life 6 months ago
The babble about Atheism by religious people is nonsensical blaming it for homosexuality, unwanted pregnancies, Las Vegas & the rest. Man has come of age. Internet has brought individuals close. They discuss important issues of their needs & circumstance, discovering that Abraham's God is jealous, dictatorial, narcissist, chauvinistic & cruel. Atheism is release from religions. Morality? Whose? Killing a human in God's name? Religious Values? Dividing Earthlings? Exploiting the weak?
amoralis123 8 months ago 6
These religions are giving away so much of there dogma and yielding to scientific fact now that I really think (hope) we are seeing the death throes of religion. Admiting you dont need religion to be moral is the begining of the end. Why cant we just teach kids the importance of morals and empathy in a healthy society instead of using fear tactics, or just as bad, the lure of paradise after death.
charjessiesmith 8 months ago
Pig ignorant question.
croutonfada 8 months ago
stupidest question, ever asked, ever.
atimor 8 months ago
These are really helpful articulations of particular places where people might find themselves with respect to the word "spiritual" and the notion of "values" and where those values show up. (i.e, in particular religious communities, or not.) To Prothero's point, I think one piece of the practice of responsible spirituality is a commitment to learning some about the tradition where your "practice" (yoga or meditation) comes from. The HarperOne guy also has a good point about Dawkins, Hitchens.
kyeflans 9 months ago
We have visions on how the world SHOULD be and we act on them" Dont you see sir? This is the exact problem with religion. You may have your views of God or whoever else you choose to believe but Dnt tell my children it is what is correct or tell me I shall be eternally punished because I have a healthy attitude to sex. Stephen Fry put it better than I can. "The only people who have a problem with food are anorexics or morbidly obese people." The church is the one with severe sex desires
MarcAutomatic 10 months ago
you could believe in a spiritual realm without believing in god
2nDoppelganger 10 months ago 2
Well at least they weren't so blind that they pretend religion is the only source of morality. However you can see how ingrained their contempt for Atheism is. They all talk about Atheists as "angry" or being Atheist because something went wrong. None of them seem to accept that someone could be Atheist simply through reasoning. Until religious people accept this, there will always be a wall between Atheists and religious. Likewise Atheists have to stop thinking all religious are stupid.
ragerancher 10 months ago
What's funny is... the "book" or these idiots won't answer the question of... WHat kind of people were they before god gave them the "Law"?, they didn't spawn with it moses had to get them from egypt and wonder they desert blindly... intel god intervened and saved them with his shitty law. I guess they were moral-less barbaric degenerates intel pappa came with the "Commandments"! Haahahah idiots.
buktomsin 11 months ago
@SurlyCalifornia :D oh yea
buktomsin 11 months ago
Rabbi Lerner rocks! He makes a lot of sense.
SIMKINETICS 11 months ago
It´s extremely interesting what Micheal Lerner says... The world needs to start looking at Israel and it´s policies critically without having to fear being called anti semites or BS like that
TheGrindsprint 11 months ago
These guy's are complete idiots, he bashed harris and dawkins, that was his point? or highlight i guess? What a waste of gray matter...
buktomsin 11 months ago
If you need a book to tell you how to live your life without making the conclusion on what your morals should be then you are no better than a lamb following the Shepard to the slaughter.
DonkeyPac 1 year ago
I can say religion is dumb without being angry at it. Daytime television is dumb, does that mean I'm angry at Judge Judy?
I see religion as a mental pathology; a convoluted mess of mind games that I don't have time for. There are countless better ways I could be spending my mental energy.
CanadiaNecro1 1 year ago 3
@johananraatz if we all thought like that and accepted these regulations as they stood, we'd have no civil rights whatsoever.
MrZebesco 1 year ago
Goddamn ah this ah stammering is ah so ah painful to ah listen ah to
sonninnos 1 year ago
Ah the crusades. A wonderful example of spiritual values passed on by Christians. How many thousands of people have atheists killed in holy wars? :P
crazykidlane 1 year ago
Ah the crusades. A wonderful example of the beautiful values passed on by religion.
crazykidlane 1 year ago
Can people who don't believe in fairies tell time? Can people who aren't auto mechanics still feel "love"? Can people who remain unconvinced that reptilian aliens control the world still play the piano? Can people who don't believe in Zeus still be artistic?
..how are these questions any more dumb? How about "Do we have ANY reason WHAT SO EVER to think there's ANY correlation between X and y"? How about "WTF does the word spiritual even mean"?
>:(
Flyborg 1 year ago 2
@Flyborg Kitties love cat litter!
jmgibbs53 4 months ago
Efficiency. Is. Important.
Not. Spiritual. Values.
MrWsad 1 year ago
Drivel.
Subjectivity101 1 year ago
maudlin sums up dawkins, harris, and hitchens books with "they said religion is dumb...and that's not a good argument". Maudlin is incorrect, the books are articulate, well thought out, and sound. They are critical of religion, but they cannot be summed up with "religion is dumb" a la Maudlin's ridiculous characterization.
TheJohnDunsworth 1 year ago 4
Wow 8 minutes and seven seconds about absolutely nothing !!!
nemirn 1 year ago 27
@nemirn thanks for the reply, i will stop watching now.
ralfjacobs 10 months ago
who the fuck wants to have spiritual values? watch paranormal activity if u want spirits...grow a set, and deal with life...drop your bible, let go of the little boys dick, and let go of god...he's not there people
maciverandy 1 year ago
What on Earth does "spiritual" mean?
It really has no meaning. And, if we take it literally, wouldn't it mean that one has to believe in "spirits" in the first place?
Maudin is ridiculous:
Maudin says that he can make the case FOR atheism better than Dawkins. This PROVES his ignorance. There is no "case" for atheism. Atheism is a LACK of a belief in god. Maudin doesn't even understand that simple point. Probably didn't even read Dawkins, and if he did, he didn't understand it.
TheOrcasRule 1 year ago
pffff souls?? spirituality?? its called intuition. everbody has it. it's not religious, it's not magic. fuck, people are retarded...
Willybird37 1 year ago
atheistically religiously no name.
Youngl3lood 1 year ago
"Why can't there be spiritual values without religion?" Really? What a loaded question, haha. Spirituality doesn't require religion to exist. Damn trolls. Haha.
Shalashaska777 1 year ago
sooo after centuries of murder and continuing murder of people for having different religious beliefs, people have concluded that there's more than one path to "truth"...
grow up, it just shows they're all man made and there are no paths
u just have to live a good life and give up bronze age myths
kash959 1 year ago
am I the only one who's annoyed by how many times that guy says "um" all the time?
Chaaarge 1 year ago
When I think spiritual values (what's the difference between spiritual values and normal values anyway...) I think compassion, and it just seems so that theists lack this a lot more than atheists.
KuroiiTenshii 1 year ago
No one can be blamed for being atheist or even anti-religious given the lack of evidence for gods and the mountains of evidence for the evils of religion.
proudfootz 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
This is just idiotic.
McKleeny 1 year ago
Michael Maudlin, you are dumb. If I were you I would not go around telling people that i am religious and spiritual, because you are insulting your intelligence, providing you have any. I presume you do.
stinksud 1 year ago
What exactly is a spiritual value? Nobody on this panel seems to know...
PinkProgram 1 year ago
lol, I immediately knew what a panel of religious people would have to say about non-believers. Why even beg the question? It's obvious they think moral values come from scripture and so people of no faith have no ties to that moral system and thus are incapable of having moral values.
LordTyrannus 1 year ago
Sam was never angry or against religion. He is just trying to bring more sense to religions. And sense is something that a lot of people seem to throw out the window when it comes to their beliefs.
HBKCommish 1 year ago
wtf are "spiritual values"? and why should they matter to people that don't believe in spirits in the first place?
DubRighteous 1 year ago 60
@DubRighteous I think perhaps the term "spiritual" in spiritual values should be replaced with "transcendent." If one holds to materialism is becomes questionable if they can hold to values which are properly thought of as transcendent. Seeing the link between materialism and atheism I can see where they might be coming from here.
JohananRaatz 1 year ago
@DubRighteous Idiotic...spiritual value as in a love of nature or love its self or a feeling closer to an abstract idea or concept, as a theist I can see Atheist having having spiritual values, Atheism is the denial or disbelief that a higher being"god" exist and or created the universe, please quit making atheist look like angry kids bitter at there parents, may u find your center.
reno17420 8 months ago
@reno17420
Love is a feeling, what does that have to do with "spiritual values". Why would I make atheists look angry for simply asking a question? You are the one that seems a bit upset. Again what the fuck are spiritual values if you don't even know what spirit is? What you and the guy in the video expressed were just empty words that don't say anything. Just a bunch of adorning bullshit, really.
DubRighteous 8 months ago
@DubRighteous A "spiritual Value" as I and others define can be a number of things one being and perhaps one of the few things organized religions brings that benefits mankind is the idea of Worshiping or revering a concept, idea, deity, or system above one's self. Often times when one can't revere something above themselves be it Love/nature/ a god figure or whatever they as a whole become shallow, self-centered and materialistic.
reno17420 8 months ago
@DubRighteous and spirit is an abstract term with many meanings, for me its a term used to describe the human experience different from the idea of a soul that's floats on after we die. so when I as a theist say yes atheist can be spiritual that's what I mean. On matters of the spirit think more through the lens of Philosophy and poetry rather than cold logical science.
reno17420 8 months ago
@reno17420
That is what you want it to mean? To me what you call spiritual values has absolutely nothing to do with religion itself, there's as much shallow, self-centered and materialistic people in any belief or disbelief. It just is completely irrelevant.
DubRighteous 8 months ago
Thats because it is dumb.
MrJuno6 1 year ago
Wish Hitchens had been on this panel!
vp1981ad 1 year ago
1) The real Question is:
do people who do not believe in the easter bunny lack "spiritual values" ?
2) There should be many more Michael Lerners in the world !
sarahj666666 1 year ago 2
All this skepticism is the fault of them damn protestants. Oh, and yoga is a spiritual practice.
Until "spiritual," and "value," become more clearly defined, this conversation is very fluffy.
EyeMonniker 1 year ago
The first speaker, Mr. Maudlin, has got some nerve to claim that Dawkins and Harris don't put forth a good argument for Atheisim and then continue with some non-sense dribble that dances around the non-sense question they asked in the first place. He admits that God is not needed in order to be moral. I could have attacked Atheisim better than that, Mr. Maudlin. How sad. Maybe he doubts himself.
4444est1 1 year ago
Haha the second guy basically blaimed everything for irreligiosity. He missed out that "people just don't buy these fairy stories anymore"...
chebob2009 1 year ago
Maudlin lives up to his name: effusively or insincerely emotional
How can Prothero relate Protestant Faith with scepticism? He focuses on inane things about religious institues like fashion
Lerner says they are angry at God. NO! How can 1 b angry @ something 1 doesn't believe in?
They are incapable of having this discussion
"The test of a first rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function" - F. Scott Fitzgerald
whitehawk76 1 year ago
SPIRITUALITY" is your emotional reaction to events and experiences...it is a chemical process in your brain .. so an "atheist" can be spiritual..and usually is..to the atheist "god" is a stumbling block to a healthy experience of reality! in a sense the atheist is the most spiritual of all for they experience reality without fear and ultimate acceptance! the atheist is a spiritual HERO!
WORLDARYANREVIVAL 1 year ago
you do know atheism is also a religion founded in india right?
CursedVanguards 1 year ago
@CursedVanguards well its actually a philosophical school ...and is considered a spiritual path...Buddhism would be considered an atheist religion..
one could say atheism was first organized in India and founded there as a structured answer to theism..
WORLDARYANREVIVAL 1 year ago
@CursedVanguards
Atheism IS NOT a religion. It is a lack of a belief in god(s) and the supernatural. It has no FOUNDING. Either you are a silly little troll or you have no understanding of what words mean. Buy a dictionary.
N.B. I hope my spellcheck works. ;-)
whitehawk76 1 year ago
"Spiritual values"? The whole concept of spirituality is man made. It's make believe. Made up. Another prime example of a word in the English language being abused by it being used for a purpose it was never intended.
dirtydonki 1 year ago
My uncle used to say he was angry at God for not existing !
steveinchelsea 1 year ago 2
Quite boring exchange- so far at least. They did not even define what they were talking about- what do they mean by spirituality?? Only the rabbi had something vaguely interesting to say. If Hitchens were there, it would have been a slaughterhouse, all eaten alive by the Hitch (and rightfully so).
Kocmyliusz 1 year ago
*yawn*
rooley 1 year ago
At the start of this video Mr. Maudlin says that Harris's and Dawkin's books are poorly argued by stressing that they are both angry at religion. The fact that they are angry does not in any way lessen the validity or persuasiveness of their arguments.
The message is clear: religion is irrational and does a disservice to the intellect of modern man.
turningofthetide1 1 year ago
Dumb? This man is a poor speaker while Sam Harris is a good speaker. This quality involves concisely providing views and supporting details, which is what this man didn't have.
TheFrozenthia 1 year ago
Religion deserves same status as all ridiculous superstition. People who believe in living elvis dont get to run countries.
bary1234 1 year ago 3
What does 'spiritual' mean anyway - what IS spirituality? it is far too ambiguous and is used FAR too often. Its a cop out.
alittlebitofperil 1 year ago
@alittlebitofperil
Spirituality - A manifestation of humanity's desires to fill the gaps in its knowledge using comfortable or exciting lies.
ackmonra 1 year ago
@ackmonra - Yup, right on the money. Just another god of the gaps really isn't it.
alittlebitofperil 1 year ago
Any other Capitalist Americans going to make the holy pilgrimage to Wall Street with me this year??
krm6886 1 year ago
whats a religious expert?
kevrs2 1 year ago
@kevrs2
A synonym would be Mythological Bullshit Specialist.
And a definition would be "Deluded and/or misinformed individual with insufficent skepticism and a weakness for old stories OR someone with expertise in dealing with such people."
ackmonra 1 year ago
@ackmonra oh i see ,i thought it might be something like that.
kevrs2 1 year ago
Try reading the bible critically and dispassionately. You'll find it's no place to get your values and morals.
01bdbark 1 year ago
Michael Lerner acted like he was neatly tucked under a guillotine while pleading his case through the entire bit...
and the term "religion" is based more on belief then iconic peoples, or rituals, so I was laughing while he was saying capitalism is a religion xD
Yeah... peace and unity... that is DEFINITELY the raison d'être of religion -facepalm-
Save me, the earth is full of silly people.
NicholasKreuz 1 year ago 2
omg.... I hate this condecending crap! Like morals without a belief in god must somehow be "justified"? People are not moral because they're religious, they are moral because they are moral! What is so hard to understand?!
KamasutraButterfly 1 year ago 2
Simply put spirituality, or feelings of transcendence are not the domain of religion. Atheist have spiritual values if you take away the religious meaning of spirituality. Contemplation and appreciation of the cosmos, nature, and life around us is held by many Atheists.
LordTyrannus 1 year ago
morality existed before any religions hijacked it
HFamilyKid 1 year ago
bible prophecies are coming to pass
erichathy222 1 year ago
Very poor hogwash
HFamilyKid 1 year ago
is that Dwight shrewd (the second dude that speaks)
malaverde13 1 year ago
I say some Atheist do not have spiritual values. They have rational values. Which is a better I think.
funkyplayer4212 1 year ago
@funkyplayer4212
Meditation is an example of spirituality and just so happens to have positive health benefits, why wouldn't an Atheist meditate? Spirituality is not the domain of religion.
LordTyrannus 1 year ago
Does anyone need "spiritual values"?
4AMsunshine 1 year ago
I feel sorry for the Rabbi. It sounds like he is conflicted about whether or not religion is bullshit.
EclecticSceptic 1 year ago
How stupid are these freaks?
mark1970able 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
The word spiritual is the most overused and meaningless word I have ever heard.
JJPHILLYLG 1 year ago
The word spiritual is the most overused and meaningless word I have ever heard.
JJPHILLYLG 1 year ago 3
@JJPHILLYLG How about transcendant. You might aswell say blooblababatrambambarama.
EclecticSceptic 1 year ago
if you have a better argument lets hear it?????
monteral12 1 year ago
The religious tend to believe that you cannot be moral unless you have the fear of Hell fire hanging over your head, personal want friendship and community with others be damned. Ultimately, religion is the bureaucracy that exists between the person and a god. So, one has to get into the right religion to get in touch with a god. Of course, part of being in a religion means to have to oppose another religion because 'they don't know the way'.
bearmare 1 year ago
I want to hear his better arguments for atheism
Keeban3 1 year ago
I have values. Need they be spritual?
colourfulwithaU 1 year ago
This is postman Lucas d:[
Post him on every stupid video you see.
wohocho 1 year ago
Reilgion can have spirituality if they want! It's just semantics. You take spirituality, we'll take awe, wonder, and euhporia, thanks.
powabiatch 1 year ago
i like what the rabbi said the best :)
stilsonkidd 1 year ago
who is michael maudlin... he sounds like a total moron. i also love how michael lerner admitted that he'd be an atheist if circumstances had been different.
rccahay 1 year ago
The only one who makes close to any sense is the Rabbi. And he just talked in circles. I wanna say his message is "Whatever path you need to take spiritually, go with my blessing" but it just sounded like "Everyone's right, everyone's wrong, let's all go drink a beer and get along." (rhyme totally unintentional) Anyone translate this gobbledygook for me?
JorgensZelda 1 year ago
@JorgensZelda I think you got it spot on. That's the problem with moderate religious people. They try so hard to be 'tolerant' and 'acceptiing' and 'respectful', that they have this whole wishy washy, 'well, there are many paths to god or peace or spirituality (just not atheism, of course)'. They just end up saying nothing. At least with fundies, you have something to go up against, as opposed to a shifting target. They have the conviction of their beliefs...as screwed and messed up as they are.
LostSubsForever 1 year ago
@LostSubsForever My favorite view was actually my grandmother's. She said that she's Christian, very much Christian. Her responsibility was to give you the message and you do what you want with it. After that, as long as you're not hurting anybody, more power to you, do whatever makes you happy. You have to answer for one person: you. So, hey, on the very off-chance that there is a Judgment Day, I earned my spot in Hell and had fun on the way. :P She did the best she could. I'm just stubborn. :D
JorgensZelda 1 year ago
Thankyou. Keep this out there.
Atheism gets nothing but a boost from listening to their, as Gallus 1 puts it, 'shite'.
Only religious freaks seek to erase atheistic commenting on Youtube.
Atheists, generally, don't mind religious thoughts and opinions being freely available, and should never endeavour to baulk such apparent stupidity.
Such stupidity should be made evident.
Never block the arguments of your antagonists, especially if their arguments only serve to help your arguments.
naganokumas 1 year ago
@naganokumas : Like Bonaparte said, never interrupt your enemy while they are making a mistake. It's very bad manners.
althesmith 1 year ago
4 minutter siden "unity of all humanity, of the need to preotect the earth, the need for peace and social justice, of non-violence. Those kinds of values that i dont see any other institutions even claiming..." Damn. That Lerner seeems like a good fellow but this is BS. Both amnesty and red cross, basically claims these things as what they try to achieve. and that was just to mention 2 large non-religious institutions.
hardknocks73 1 year ago
Comment removed
hardknocks73 1 year ago
Prothero's explanation for why some reject organized religion is ridiculously superficial: they think the way the minister dresses is silly? How about because religion teaches fear and guilt to children? Tries to regulate personal behavior and sexuality? The inherent irrationality, violence, and misogyny in the bible? Submission to authority?
MrZebesco 1 year ago 24
@MrZebesco What's the matter with regulating behavior and sexuality? Virtually all human cultures regardless of religion do that. And as for submission to authority, in order to have a proper human society you need some people to lead and other people to follow.
JohananRaatz 1 year ago
@JohananRaatz But follow on their own, not just following because they were told. The problem with regulating it is how you do it and to what degree, there is a difference for arresting a murderer, and threatening eternal punishment on someone who had a dirty thought.
LunarFuror 11 months ago
@MrZebesco Totally agree and would also like to add that his argument/comments are massively patronising and condecending, he makes out that atheists (particularly young ones) are more bothered about what the religious bloke is wearing and are unable to have logical thoughts!
psychobartus 1 year ago
@psychobartus Are you really saying that if someone cares what another thinks then they can't have logical thoughts? Let me tell you how logical to care about someone else's thoughts is. If two men were all alone in a forest with no knowledge of where they are they must work together to learn of their whereabouts and help each other to create a better understanding of their surroundings. They have to care about each other and their thoughts to progress through this forest. There's logic for you.
DonkeyPac 1 year ago
@DonkeyPac Im not really sure where you are going with this! I wasnt saying that it was illogical to think about other peoples thoughts (empathy). I was saying that this Prothero bloke seems to think that the main reason people reject religion is because the sloke at the front is wearing a silly robe, I think this is patronising to all atheists who reject religion based on logical thought!
psychobartus 1 year ago
I don't understand religion... I mean, I do, but just HOW do these people fall into religion's hands? I feel that religion is for weak-minded people. All though- many things have been brought through religion. Atheism works better than religion, why? Because we ADMIT we don't know everything... But religions on the other hand, try to convince everyone that their facts are ALL true.
Just how I feel :\
6Arizona0Screams2 1 year ago
The Rabbi shows a keen sense of ethics. I wish people like him were in power in Israel.
Demiwag 1 year ago
People with biases often think those with a different point of view are dumb...
bonjohen 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Michael who? Who the fuck is this guy? YOU could write a better argument than Sam Harris? Go out and write a sick argument for atheism, and put something in it about only doing it to show I could. Get real dude.
VictorEchoNovember79 1 year ago
Comment removed
VictorEchoNovember79 1 year ago
The only value in listening to these people is the confirmation that even relatively intelligent people can talk an awful lot of shite. The scary thing is the inanity of some remarks gives an understanding of how easily the theist can justify any horror....and even bestow virtue in it.
To Hell with God.
gallus1 1 year ago 4
Please explain what "spiritual values" are. The way I see it they are something created as a way to attack athiests, because it is obvoius that an athiests moral values are the same as those that are religoius, and in some cases when crime is commited in the name of god can be above those of believers.
hitman1421 1 year ago
Fuck retards who believe in Religion....
MatchCard 1 year ago
A simple yes or no would have done!
ooglebydoogleby 1 year ago
Rabbi is very good here, very true, gives one hope for the mid east when u here honesty like this.
urbanguerrilla64 1 year ago
Lerner? That whackjob is still around???
ClumsyRoot 1 year ago
What are spiritual values?
For me, the only things that come to mind are those values produced by our intrinsic human nature, rather than reasoned logic.
If this is what the question refers to then it's not worth answering by anyone with the common sense/decency to know that religion does not hold the monopoly on our humanity.
GrandSupremeDaddyo 1 year ago
google Doe's Account, its mindblowing.
Nevyfling 1 year ago
Not only are their arguments on this panel weak and poorly transmitted, it is also so fuckin boring to sit through.
MrKafkasdick 1 year ago
Lerner is an idiot. Seeing something as true or even "self-evident" by itself does not automatically make it a religion. This type of argument is also often used by creationists when they want to level the playing field with science. It's bogus from the get go.
MomoTheBellyDancer 1 year ago
Maudlin's claim to argue for atheism better than Dawkins or Harris is pathetic. He gives no example, leading me to think he is better at promoting falsehoods.
Prothero ignores the dangerous dogmatic dictate vs human hope and morality. He's just shallow.
Lerner is the only one that understands the question regarding anti-religion, he just misses that almighty God is a tyrant.
drfoxcourt 1 year ago
@drfoxcourt u mad?
youboon 1 year ago
Not one of these people answered the question. How did they determine this panel? Did they just select the most immature religionists they could find?
FighterDoken 1 year ago
Only Michael Lerner made sense of the men on the panel. At least, the first part of his elaborate answer.
SicSeb 1 year ago
facelessphonix your lucky you wernt catholic
funkster22657 1 year ago
what irks me is this guy can keep a straight face while calling Sam and Ricvhards books plain 'dumb' while his whole being is based on bronze age stories. People say 'oh Dawkins had bad 'philosophy' , well i for one think his rational thoughts have covered every base a religion can stand on. Why cant religions realise atheists are not saying we know everything. We are just saying you don't know either, so lets wait for evidence.
KingMushroom 1 year ago 78
@KingMushroom a dawkins holy zealot, nice to meet you.
youboon 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@KingMushroom, are you aware that there are many atheist religions including Shintoism, Buddhism, etc?
NeCacaluXuxultic 1 year ago
@KingMushroom I agree with you. I read an essay by philosopher Thomas Nagel, criticising Dawkins' philosophy in the God Delusion. He came across, to me, as being peeved that Dawkins' had strayed into his domain. I lost some respect for Nagel because of that. I am familiar with Kant and J.S. Mill and Bentham and found his synopses and analyses were accurate. He never went into too much detail and it was in the context of showing how morality can come from sources other than religion.
EclecticSceptic 1 year ago
religious people are soo full of SHIT!!!. They try to make their religion sound sophisticated but fail so miserably. They preach away in their churches that miracles can happen and that the bible is true, and Jesus rose from the dead.....but then they defend someone deistic super inteligent designer.
Simply bring on the water into wine or FUCK off I say
cjunk351 1 year ago
I live in a community where most people parade their religion. I work at a public high school and in response to a very hateful email forward towards atheist I answered back and explained that I was an Atheist. Many of the responses I got were about going to hell. When I speak to my religious coworkers they think I am a good moral person but since I do not believe in Jesus then I deserve to go to hell. It has nothing to do with my choices but on believing one thing. That is not about morals.
CandideNovella 1 year ago 35
@CandideNovella You might enjoy this then: "If I were not an atheist, I would believe in a God who would choose to save people on the basis of the totality of their lives and not the pattern of their words. I think he would prefer an honest and righteous atheist to a TV preacher whose every word is God, God, God, and whose every deed is foul, foul, foul." -Issac Asimov
OaklandWhiteElephant 1 year ago
when I grew up in christianity, my christian father commited adultery with a married chritsian woman, my christian grandfather blew his head off. my christian wife cheated on me with 2 christian married men. My christian step father molested my christian sisters.....
I am now atheist.. I have never commited adultery , I have never molested or phisicaly abused. I have never commited suicide....and I dont want to.
Argument Finished.
FacelessPhoenix 1 year ago
That is hardly an argument.
Please well formed arguments, you give atheists like me a bad name, and make us seem like we are just angry at religions/religious people.
thenumbra66 1 year ago
Google Does Account. Mind-blowing Stuff.
Nevyfling 1 year ago
I love how the premise of this discussion is predicated upon an unfounded assumption - namely that religion is possessed of any moral certitude from which to judge the topic...
I would argue that any religion that promises or threatens in order to reinforce "moral" behavior isn't moral at all - but instead promotes a disguised selfishness - true morality stems not from greed or fear, but from the freedom from either to act for the benefit of mankind.
Zindiq1 1 year ago
Nice commentary. I'd like to argue a minor point that the Rabbi mentioned at the end about saving the Earth (or something along those lines). Lets get it straight. The Earth's not going anywhere, not before the end of the solar system at least. I'm not sure what massive nuclear fallout would do to all life on Earth, but hell, there have been 5 mass extinction events, and the Earth's survived all of them. The issue is more about saving ourselves, a race infinitely more vulenerable than a planet
nonameface24 1 year ago
The thoughtfulness and rationality of the theists in this clip toward atheists is refreshing. If more people could get past simply attempting to demonize their enemy and actually make logical and honest considerations toward those who disagree with them, like these men did, the world would be a more peaceful and tolerant place. I would like to see a lot more politicians exhibiting this kind of consideration.
MessengeroftheSky 1 year ago
When I was Christian, I was a very good person but after college, I became atheist and started killing, stealing, and raping because I lost my moral compass (The Bible). Just kidding. Honestly, I am a much more ethical and moral person now as an atheist than I was when I was Christian. I think both my atheism and morality were products of maturity. At any rate, I have found my atheist friends to be generally more ethical than my Christian friends, because they are usually more open minded.
dsessom 1 year ago 2
Bravo!
FSUjonnyD 1 year ago
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janettehanzelka 1 year ago
LOL spiritual values.... it's a bunch of romanticized bullshit to associate morals with god. I'm an atheis, and I still see morals. In fact I see them better than most christians do. LOL come to think of it, christians break their own religious views more than atheists do. For example, the most abortions are had by catholics. The most divorces are had by christians in general. The people most likely to cheat on their legal partners are christians.
ossumguywill 2 years ago 2
@ossumguywill lol! really? what have you been smoking?
humbletim10 1 year ago
absolutely nothing... obviously you have been smoking your bullshit opiate that is christianity. You don't even have an argument, just "No you're wrong!". Please try again once you have something to say.
ossumguywill 1 year ago
no im atheist. and you dont have an argument either, just a hate-rant and some dubious facts.
humbletim10 1 year ago
michael maudlin's statements suck : first he says he could argue the point better than dawkins and then completely fails to do so. lol, what a wanker.
quosmo1 2 years ago 2
@quosmo1 u mad?
youboon 1 year ago
@youboon and your point is ?
by the way i am on maudlins side - i just did not like his arguement at all. wayy too nice and politicaly correct and trying so hard not to offend anyone cause bejaysus you dont want to offend !!!
quosmo1 1 year ago
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ICHTMAN 2 years ago
I don't have "spiritual values" I have morals I know the difference between right an wrong and in some cases more so than a so called "Christian" or someone that is "Spiritual" and another its absurd to think that someone would judge and write off a particular religion based on clothing their pastor wears that person is ridiculous. I also like the Rabi to an extent he's the first religious leader to say atheist or agnostic are moral or have ethics
TinaLamb2007 2 years ago
That's not true. Any theist with a brain recognizes that atheists can (and do) live generally moral and ethical lives. Theologians and religious scholars constantly admit this.
The problem is the lack of dialogue between true atheist scholars and theologians. All of the talk is between religious fundamentalists (who are retarded) and shallow atheists (with limited thought and study into these transcendent issues).
Rjmaxnj 1 year ago
What the heck is "spiritual values"? I tried to look it up but couldn't find any kind of definition. It seems to be an odd combo of words.
Animeabe 2 years ago