this is dumb, just because of a foward motion does not force him to call it, i did that same thing my hand in the air with the chips about to drop it in then the other guy instantly shows his hand ace high flush , i looked at the dealer and said i did not say call, i did not drop my chips inside. dealer agreed it was not a call, floor came asked if i said call? asked if i let go of my chips ? no and no . so wrong decision here.
I agree...forward motion so even if he wanted to fold they should have made him put it in....kinda like when you play at casinos that have bet lines or rings.
who made this law that you can't use a forward motion to get info? should be killed. poker is about info too which makes it more of a skillful game. bastard.
@CaliCal68 I think it depends where you play and the extent to which you do it. For example, one way of angle shooting is to put out chips to call, but not enough. When your opponent shows his cards, if you've lost, you point out that you didn't actually call. If you've won you keep quiet and take the pot. Obviously most live games have the rule that if you put chips out, even if it's not enough, that's a call.
Forward motion is a call, floor was right, and he was angleshooting. The 2 guys didn't do anything wrong even if it turned out bad for the other guy. Levi already made the call by moving his hand forward with the chips, the fact that him getting away with his little cheat would have benefit Fleyshman doesn't change that.
Dealer should have called that and brought it to the attention of the supervisor of those tables. Hand should have then gone to Fleishman. Looked like a deliberate attempt to obtain information to me. Others at the table should remain silent.
I don't personally think it SHOULD be rulled as a forward motion. By that logic, if you take some chips off the top to shuffle and play with and you happen to move them forward then they're in play. that's dumb. The rule SHOULD be when the player takes his hands OFF the chips. If he moves them forward and takes his hand off of them, then the chips are out there to stay. If he moves them out and back in without taking his hand off of them, then they shouldn't. Or just play only-vocal-calls-count.
@TomBarrister First point, it ISN"T debatable whether player at a table can argue/dispute/criticize/talk about/give their opinion about a hnd that they are not involved in. Period. No point in discussing that.
Ok... your second statement, about directors/dealers being able to speak out .. I think they should... like any other sport/tournament/match/etc. the referee/director haw the power and actually the duty to intervene when foul play (or anything considered foul play) is involved...
I understand that it is a forward motion, but shouldn't there be a rule where only the player(s) involved in the hand can say anything? What if the J10 player were bluffing all-in?
If they had spoken up after the hand the ruling would have been the same, so all the commentary about the two guys staying quiet until the hand is over is pretty pointless. It was clearly forward motion and I'm actually impressed the tournament director got it right.
Annoying how that stupid bearded fuck thinks that it's bad 'gamesmanship' to hold the chips out in front of you..... but doesn't seems to be OK with talking shit during a hand he's not even in.
Bearded fuck should have STFU until the hand was over and then complained obv.
@gav800 It's bad gamesmanship to cheat, yeah, and that's what that was, cheating. And you're saying it's bad gamesmanship to complain about another player cheating? You're a fucking idiot.
@ninjajesus81 Yes, they are both bad gamesmanship.... anybody who isn't in the hand should stfu and voice their concern after the hand is finished. After the hand, he can go off his head all he fucking likes, but talking about a hand, during the hand, that you're not even in is horrid.
@gav800 Your idea of bad gamesmanship makes no sense. Cheaters should be exposed the moment they cheat. Why let cheating continue? That makes zero sense.
@ninjajesus81 I'm saying he is just as bad as the angleshooter for doing it. You're saying that if you catch someone stealing from the store, you should shoot them because they should be exposed the moment they cheat.
He shouldn't talk during the hand because it can affect Flyshman's action.... What if the guy was gonna fold but the beard-guy says "no no no, you held the chips in, you must call now" and loses the hand for Flyshman by opening his mouth....
@ninjajesus81 tbh, I don't think this angle shoot is really all that bad.... Pretty sure there is a hand for like $500k on HSP where Eli Elezra does something similar (with a fd on the flop) and nobody says anything there... though the context of that hand is a bit different.
Maybe if Flyshman called him on it during the hand it'd be fine.... but a guy who has no direct interest in the hand should shut the f up.... The guy even apologized to Flyshman after the hand for affecting the action.
@gav800 He apologized because what he said MADE him have to bet, and he lost because of it. But that's the rules. You don't think people should be forced to play by the rules? You think he shouldn't have said anything so that guy could have avoided playing by the rules?
only thing is his opponent wasnt looking at him so no reaction would be made if no action is seen
sometimes as soon as u make a forward motion and your head recognises what your hand is doing, occasionally there is a hesitation (in the gut) and u can pull em back.. nonetheless that could eassily be designed as angle shooting.
you cant do that. if you did that in los angeles california in a place called commerce you lose your chips and maybe more when you get beat up after the poker table.
@CaliCal68 officially any movement of poker chips toward the pot is to be considered a committing action. So yes, if you make a forward movement with chips in your hands you can't take it back, those chips are committed.
there should be a line on the table, if the chips touch the felt within the line, it should be counted, if the player's hand with the chips in it is within the line for more than 2 seconds, it should be counted, apart from that it should not be counted and "forward motion" is so ambiguous its wrong.
Then, I would stand up from my chair, step back from the table and give myself enough room to do those "forward motion" tests so that I didn't cross the line. LOL.
Poker is all about getting information, this is a move to get information... Thats happened a few times against me n I simply don't react until his chips fall and make contact with the table, or the dealer announces the bet was called or raised. I don't think there is any problem with it and that rule should be changed. and just for the record, poker is a game of bluffing, lying, and pretending, as if any of that is "noble" to say angle shooting is "cheap" and "scummy"
@antibrdy Nah, he had every right to call that. That's bullshit. He was clearly doing the forward motion to get a rise. ANYONE who has played a real game knows the rules, if he was thinking he would have just THOUGHT and not moved.
@Pyroshen. The guy who was bluffing did not want the guy calling ovbiously. By the guy not involved speaking up, may (we will never know) have influenced the call which is totally out of order its simple wait till the hand is over to voice your opinion there is nothing worse in poker then influencing someone,s decision during a hand that you are not involved in. By all means he can and should call it out after the hand is over but NOT during the hand...
@antibrdy those guys speak up at the wrong time, hands are still in play, they should not talk what is wrong or right!, i agree, it cost the other guys hand at risk, because he's bluffing with a bottom pair!
@antibrdy no kidding, saying "sorry I didnt mean to do that to you" isnt gonna recover the millions he couldve won if he won the pot. Not that it was a guarantee but every pot, every hand counts. Fck, I'd be STFU even if I lost since they were all forcing him to call.
Scummy? isn't the idea of this game to get all of your opponents chips, however you can within the rules? the chips never left his hand, so it wasn't a call, angle shoot suck my dick, it was to gauge reaction. Same as talking to a player, to see what response you get. Nothing wrong with it, yalls a bunch a bitches.
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this was 100% intended. He didn't make a fit over putting the chips in because of how uneasy the other player was that they were going to force him to call. If you noticed at first he was arguing it, then he saw the reaction of the player ( thus why he angel shooted) and played it off like it wasn't a angel shoot because he knew at that point he had the best hand.
If the player with J10 had a strong hand, he would have reacted differently, and the angel shooter would have as well.
100% angle shoot. Whether intended it to be or not, it was as a matter of principle, and all he had to do was say, "Sorry. I made a mistake!" (If, indeed, that's all it was.) But that's not what he did--instead he started defending his actions and saying that he didn't put his chips forward, etc. I concur with the other players at the table, therefore, that it was scummy...
And everyone knows Nicolas knows how it is a modest and honnest player. He sure did a mistake, but definetely not in purpose and not to provock a reaction...
is Not cheating, at very best is a bluff. Ok, so if I have to call a bet and I reach for chips to see the oponent reaction, even do I dont have a clear intention to call, im angle shooting. Any strategy that i have to my disposal to get information is a valid one. If my strategy is irritate my opponent and i slowroll them so they get angry and go on tilt and take advantage of that, its my choice. Is a game that is all about lying & strategy
@deunasolavez1 An "angle shoot" is the equivalent of moving a chess piece, letting go, seeing your opponents reaction, then moving it back. You have already committed to your move. The action of angle shooting follows the same concept. Officials see it as you have committed to calling but then you take your chips back because you do not like the reaction you received. It is much different then "hollywooding."
@Nuttingstube Yeah I don't know if Hellmuth re-angles or just thought for a moment that Durrrr put his chips in. You have to credit Hellmuth either way for not giving something away there. At the time when I saw this, I didn't really knew what angle shots exactly were and that it could offend people. I think Dwans play is argueable, but isn't horrible, but the angle shot in this video is disgusting. Also check out Tony G angle shooting Phil Hellmuth. Kind of drama on that one. :-)
Ok they dude points out the angle shoot to try to get an unknown player to call a bet. The guy who is not in the pot then apologizes to the player who just got called and lost. If you are right then do not apologize unless you are partners and colluding!!!!!!!
I don't play poker although bizarrely quite enjoy watching it. Would someone mind explaining something to me? What was that guy allegedly trying to do with that forward motion\bring it back thing (in the context of who was winning\losing). Thanks.
@6anatolyy4 when someone does this they are looking for a reaction from the opponant, so if he thinks hes calling the opponant could give a reaction like a sigh or let off some other tell
what a terrible bet on the river by fleisman!!!! if he has an ace he's gonna call and if he doesnt let him bluff the worst hand..a pair of jacks has alot of showdown value on the river there.
What the fuck is this! The guy who called on the one who did the angle shooting is equally unethical in my opinion. Pot calling the kettle black. Yea i know the guy in the hat should be given a penalty but his opponent did not see him angle shoot. So.. Shut the fuck up if you're not in the pot.. bearded motherfucker.
Honestly I don't see anything wrong with what that guy did in this video... I don't consider it forward motion, he didn't move his chips that far away.
@saintjimmy456 are you sure? dwan makes that same move blatently on what looks like wsop and it isnt controversial there at all. search dwan folds by a guy called easypokerchips
I saw a hand on TV that Phil Ivey was involved in where another player actually pushed a whole stack of chips towards the pot and then halfway there, basically said "Nuh-Uh" and pulled 'em back! Of course, the whole table called "Foul" and the judge or ref or whatever, who saw the whole thing, said "Hey, no big whoop" and let the renege stand! Ivey was pissed -- and rightly so. Weird.
Depending on the casino, not all forward motion constitutes a call. Some casinos say your bet does not count until you actually release your chip/s over the betting line
@MrAndyroo999 in Crown casino here in Melbourne, Australia, forward motion is NOT a call. i can push my chips all the way into the middle then drag them back. long as my hands dont release them chips, it's not a a call. and there's not betting line on the tables either
@jayjaymatt it means you try to get an unfair advantage over your opponent by kinda phishing for information. Example: Person bets 100 and the opponents wonders what to do and has the 100 chip in his hand and thrusts his hand forward to get a reaction from the player who bet 100. He could also grab a stack of 3000 and push it forward to see the reaction of the original bettor without committing to the call or raise. Highly unethical as it could get the bettor to fold thinking theres a raise.
Notice how he's looking right at Fleyshman as he waves his chips, watching for his reaction. Didn't even own up to it either. What a classless cockjockey.
What´s really disgusting about this is, that this guy really tries to explain that it was not forward motion. So come on, even with the other player not really looking it´s terrible poker etiquette, it´s BS!"
The ultimate lesson that should be learned from this is not to get busy in other people's pots. Yes, it was an angle shoot and yes he should be called on it and penalised, but not until after the hand.
@jemmani22 Well that's obviously not right. For example if you fold pre and a flop comes JJ4, u can't say 'man I folded a jack!' just because you're at the table. When you are not in the pot you have no right to influence the outcome in any way. It's the dealer/floorperson's job to enforce the rules.
@jessicacarmody88 he wasnt influencing the outcome. he was saying the guy was cheating. if i was sitting next to my friend and me and you were out of a hand and NO one saw me whisper into is ear would you say somthing? what if i did it all night? if your going to be a slimeball i dont want you at my table either way
how did a controversial poker video end up with comments about iraq, afghanistan and muslims strapping bombs to their chests?? (which is a ridiculous stereotype btw)
that was not a angle shoot you idiots.. Fleyshman was not even looking at him so how the fuck would that be an angle shoot when he doesn't get any information from it... Its not an intentional angle shoot since he was not even looking at fleyshman because he would have realized fleyshman was not looking so he would not have done it if it was meant to be intentionally done to get an reaction.
Idiots don't realize what angle shooting is meant for.. NOT A ANGLE SHOOT!!
I disagree that that was unethical.It is only cheating when you have an advantage that others at the table dont have.A pump fake is a move available to everyone.
stupid fukin american fuk!!! always complaining and envolving themselves in other peoples problems!!! find something real to complain about like your corrupt fukin government!!
@gardenofzebulon How does being an American automatically mean that someone always complains and involves themselves in other people's shit? Sorry we're a world super power. I lived in Australia, thus I won't make any ignorant stereotypical comments. Meet some Americans before you make judgments.
@Pruane2ishot lol world super power? or world super bullies, full of greed. and if u have a problem with how the world views americans talk to ur corrupt government about how they represent americans when they involve themselves in world issues and bully their way to dominate and take over poor countries! who made america the world police asshole....and it shows at the poker table too. lol
@gardenofzebulon corrupt? don't we have one of the most stable governments in the world with an entire lack of corruption in our political system? World police? Maybe. We're stable and advanced enough that we're trying to stop the Muslims from strapping bombs to their chest and yelling Allah Akbar in public places. Leaders aren't always elected..sometimes the best leader just needs to step forth and assume the position because others are anarchical, uninformed, uneducated idiots.
@Pruane2ishot HAHAHA, stable governments in the world and not corrupt? hahahahah, i love u stupid americans! look at 9/11,,, a plane took down the trade centers? lol do u beleive in santa too?? look at the way bush was elected, look at the way u invaded iraq under false alegations suggesting they had weapons of mass distruction, oops wrong again!!! but hey america made billions out of oil! u fool wake up!! HAHAHA
@Pruane2ishot.....so your great country has invaded afghanistan and iraq to save the world have they? lol,, not for the trillion dollar industries in afghanistan and the billion dolar oil in iraq? how many victims die a year from terrorist attacks? ummm 4 or 5? if that!! ,,,,, but how many victims die a year from lung cancer in your country? and preventable deseases? ohhh ummm hundreds of thousands!!!!! imagine if your stupid country invested 100 billion a year in that? lol,,,stable country? lol
@gardenofzebulon Americans are beautiful people! Im Dutch myself and let me tell you, Americans are some of the most kindhearted en openminded folk out there. I dont know what shithole you are from, but you should really visit New York, Washington, Chicago or LA sometime. America is the most powerful state that has ever existed, dont hate them for it. All super powers have used their might to bully others
@shnoepie1 thank you for the end of ur shitty coment because you admited that america is a bully! and bullies in my book are total assholes!!! only dutch people like getting fuked up the ass and sucking bully cock, beautiful people who murder millions of people for trillion dolar industry? lololol hahaha wake up u dutch peice of shit!
When someone breaks the rules like that, the other player should be able to say whether they get to call or not.
ninjajesus81 21 hours ago
@Kentmoney53 your a ignorant moron, scrub your name should be nomoney53 next time come with a smart response your ingnorant prick.
disciples233 4 days ago
this is dumb, just because of a foward motion does not force him to call it, i did that same thing my hand in the air with the chips about to drop it in then the other guy instantly shows his hand ace high flush , i looked at the dealer and said i did not say call, i did not drop my chips inside. dealer agreed it was not a call, floor came asked if i said call? asked if i let go of my chips ? no and no . so wrong decision here.
disciples233 5 days ago
@disciples233 dude you were probably playing for like 10 dollars these guys are playing for real money. Shut the fuck up.
Kentmoney53 4 days ago
I agree...forward motion so even if he wanted to fold they should have made him put it in....kinda like when you play at casinos that have bet lines or rings.
keyman85 1 week ago
I agree with the top comments. He should have waited until the end of the hand before saying anything.
DeepSpaceNinja 2 weeks ago
people not in the hand should shut the fuck off
lipes1 3 weeks ago
both top comments are spot on
dan35669 3 weeks ago
I disagree that others should remain silent since the outcome of the hand will affect them.
rcomid 1 month ago
They're not samurai!!
fatcod13 1 month ago
0:24 WTF !!
cancuxxx 1 month ago
who made this law that you can't use a forward motion to get info? should be killed. poker is about info too which makes it more of a skillful game. bastard.
CaliCal68 1 month ago
@CaliCal68 its a poker rule dumb fk
holdem5180 2 weeks ago
@holdem5180 I'd like to know when this rule started. it still fuckin sucks and retarded dumb sheep
CaliCal68 2 weeks ago
@CaliCal68 I think it depends where you play and the extent to which you do it. For example, one way of angle shooting is to put out chips to call, but not enough. When your opponent shows his cards, if you've lost, you point out that you didn't actually call. If you've won you keep quiet and take the pot. Obviously most live games have the rule that if you put chips out, even if it's not enough, that's a call.
Pirate44444 2 weeks ago
Forward motion is a call, floor was right, and he was angleshooting. The 2 guys didn't do anything wrong even if it turned out bad for the other guy. Levi already made the call by moving his hand forward with the chips, the fact that him getting away with his little cheat would have benefit Fleyshman doesn't change that.
mourantell 1 month ago
the two guy who complained first are the one who should get a penalty
mh4x 1 month ago
@mh4x why cos they called a guy on cheating....?
Steel8000 1 month ago
Dumb faggot. Keep your mouth shut if u arent in the hand.
Dxh096020 1 month ago
not a classy move but whatever, this is poker, not sunday school. Fuck I've seen a lot worse.
stonedtoperfection22 1 month ago
@stonedtoperfection22 would matter if you were playing look what your comparing?? lol silly kid
youratowel14 1 month ago
Dealer should have called that and brought it to the attention of the supervisor of those tables. Hand should have then gone to Fleishman. Looked like a deliberate attempt to obtain information to me. Others at the table should remain silent.
grousemaster 1 month ago
@grousemaster How can this hand go to Fleishman? Levi has to put his chips in. Learn something about poker, than comment. Otherwise please shut up.
serratop 1 month ago
I don't personally think it SHOULD be rulled as a forward motion. By that logic, if you take some chips off the top to shuffle and play with and you happen to move them forward then they're in play. that's dumb. The rule SHOULD be when the player takes his hands OFF the chips. If he moves them forward and takes his hand off of them, then the chips are out there to stay. If he moves them out and back in without taking his hand off of them, then they shouldn't. Or just play only-vocal-calls-count.
BonezDrum 2 months ago
@BonezDrum you can't tell the difference between this blatant angle shoot and someone playing with their chips, smh
fitzy431 2 months ago
Suppose Fleyshman had a winner? He would have benefited by the complaint.
Levi took a shot (something he does). The other players pointed it out, and it can be debated either way that they should speak or stay silent.
What isn't debatable is whether the dealer and tournament director are supposed to speak up immediately. That's their responsibility.
TomBarrister 2 months ago
@TomBarrister First point, it ISN"T debatable whether player at a table can argue/dispute/criticize/talk about/give their opinion about a hnd that they are not involved in. Period. No point in discussing that.
Ok... your second statement, about directors/dealers being able to speak out .. I think they should... like any other sport/tournament/match/etc. the referee/director haw the power and actually the duty to intervene when foul play (or anything considered foul play) is involved...
Josho4096 1 month ago
I understand that it is a forward motion, but shouldn't there be a rule where only the player(s) involved in the hand can say anything? What if the J10 player were bluffing all-in?
VF5 2 months ago
that guy thats most out of line here imo is the guy thats not in the hand
vernadog12 2 months ago
If they had spoken up after the hand the ruling would have been the same, so all the commentary about the two guys staying quiet until the hand is over is pretty pointless. It was clearly forward motion and I'm actually impressed the tournament director got it right.
ibm88 2 months ago
Annoying how that stupid bearded fuck thinks that it's bad 'gamesmanship' to hold the chips out in front of you..... but doesn't seems to be OK with talking shit during a hand he's not even in.
Bearded fuck should have STFU until the hand was over and then complained obv.
gav800 2 months ago 2
@gav800 It's bad gamesmanship to cheat, yeah, and that's what that was, cheating. And you're saying it's bad gamesmanship to complain about another player cheating? You're a fucking idiot.
ninjajesus81 2 months ago
@ninjajesus81 Lmao, I love you.
robnwk2006 2 months ago
@ninjajesus81 Yes, they are both bad gamesmanship.... anybody who isn't in the hand should stfu and voice their concern after the hand is finished. After the hand, he can go off his head all he fucking likes, but talking about a hand, during the hand, that you're not even in is horrid.
gav800 2 months ago
@gav800 Your idea of bad gamesmanship makes no sense. Cheaters should be exposed the moment they cheat. Why let cheating continue? That makes zero sense.
ninjajesus81 2 months ago
@ninjajesus81 I'm saying he is just as bad as the angleshooter for doing it. You're saying that if you catch someone stealing from the store, you should shoot them because they should be exposed the moment they cheat.
He shouldn't talk during the hand because it can affect Flyshman's action.... What if the guy was gonna fold but the beard-guy says "no no no, you held the chips in, you must call now" and loses the hand for Flyshman by opening his mouth....
Beard guy clearly should have waited
gav800 2 months ago
@gav800 If you catch someone stealing from a store, you don't shoot them. That makes no sense. But you call them on it immediately.
He shouldn't talk during the hand, but if someone's cheating he should point it out.
You say "what if". Well what if the guy cheated and his cheating allowed him to win? Do you THEN say something when it's already too late?
ninjajesus81 2 months ago
@ninjajesus81 tbh, I don't think this angle shoot is really all that bad.... Pretty sure there is a hand for like $500k on HSP where Eli Elezra does something similar (with a fd on the flop) and nobody says anything there... though the context of that hand is a bit different.
Maybe if Flyshman called him on it during the hand it'd be fine.... but a guy who has no direct interest in the hand should shut the f up.... The guy even apologized to Flyshman after the hand for affecting the action.
gav800 2 months ago
@gav800 He apologized because what he said MADE him have to bet, and he lost because of it. But that's the rules. You don't think people should be forced to play by the rules? You think he shouldn't have said anything so that guy could have avoided playing by the rules?
ninjajesus81 2 months ago
Steinberg(bearded fu*k) is such a nerd-cop! i hate nerd cops like that on the poker table
salvadordahli 2 months ago
That was forward motion which, in most casinos. is against the rules. End of. However, when you're not in the hand, STFU!
IceCreeeaaam 2 months ago
only thing is his opponent wasnt looking at him so no reaction would be made if no action is seen
sometimes as soon as u make a forward motion and your head recognises what your hand is doing, occasionally there is a hesitation (in the gut) and u can pull em back.. nonetheless that could eassily be designed as angle shooting.
eyeswideshut3001 2 months ago
i hate those cards theyre using
davidsmavid 2 months ago
wow. that guy who talked need to stfu
richter85 2 months ago
you cant do that. if you did that in los angeles california in a place called commerce you lose your chips and maybe more when you get beat up after the poker table.
steveparok00 2 months ago
lol...he was staring right at the opponant when he tilted the chips. Then again if you cant lie, you cant play poker.
lbrex78 2 months ago
I've done similar things, unsure of what I wanted to do. Bet? Maybe not? No intention of angle shooting...
stephenjones102 3 months ago
Its ok to try and get a reaction like this. Angle shoot but legal
FreshChalk 3 months ago
he looked right at his opponent as he made the "forward motion" in an attempt to get information. end of story.
poglavnice 3 months ago 47
@poglavnice forward motion is illegal?
CaliCal68 2 months ago
@CaliCal68 officially any movement of poker chips toward the pot is to be considered a committing action. So yes, if you make a forward movement with chips in your hands you can't take it back, those chips are committed.
vesper8 1 month ago
@CaliCal68 yes 5 yard penalty
bookmdano 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@bookmdano
"yes 5 yard penalty"
NO! Half the distance to the goal.
MacBubbles 1 week ago
there should be a line on the table, if the chips touch the felt within the line, it should be counted, if the player's hand with the chips in it is within the line for more than 2 seconds, it should be counted, apart from that it should not be counted and "forward motion" is so ambiguous its wrong.
abaghaffar 3 months ago
@abaghaffar
Then, I would stand up from my chair, step back from the table and give myself enough room to do those "forward motion" tests so that I didn't cross the line. LOL.
MacBubbles 1 week ago
Poker is all about getting information, this is a move to get information... Thats happened a few times against me n I simply don't react until his chips fall and make contact with the table, or the dealer announces the bet was called or raised. I don't think there is any problem with it and that rule should be changed. and just for the record, poker is a game of bluffing, lying, and pretending, as if any of that is "noble" to say angle shooting is "cheap" and "scummy"
abaghaffar 3 months ago
perfect example of if ur not involved in the hand shut the fuck up untill its over!!
antibrdy 3 months ago 74
@antibrdy Nah, he had every right to call that. That's bullshit. He was clearly doing the forward motion to get a rise. ANYONE who has played a real game knows the rules, if he was thinking he would have just THOUGHT and not moved.
Pyroshen 2 months ago
@Pyroshen. The guy who was bluffing did not want the guy calling ovbiously. By the guy not involved speaking up, may (we will never know) have influenced the call which is totally out of order its simple wait till the hand is over to voice your opinion there is nothing worse in poker then influencing someone,s decision during a hand that you are not involved in. By all means he can and should call it out after the hand is over but NOT during the hand...
antibrdy 2 months ago 5
@antibrdy those guys speak up at the wrong time, hands are still in play, they should not talk what is wrong or right!, i agree, it cost the other guys hand at risk, because he's bluffing with a bottom pair!
2LonelyPlanet 1 month ago
@antibrdy no kidding, saying "sorry I didnt mean to do that to you" isnt gonna recover the millions he couldve won if he won the pot. Not that it was a guarantee but every pot, every hand counts. Fck, I'd be STFU even if I lost since they were all forcing him to call.
Josho4096 1 month ago
such a thscummy move man that dude sounds like a poofter
faheemnajm69 3 months ago
the forward motion rule is stupid. you should have to take your hands off the chips to call. why can't you try to get a reaction?
let88it88be 3 months ago
Scummy? isn't the idea of this game to get all of your opponents chips, however you can within the rules? the chips never left his hand, so it wasn't a call, angle shoot suck my dick, it was to gauge reaction. Same as talking to a player, to see what response you get. Nothing wrong with it, yalls a bunch a bitches.
TheKScott89 3 months ago
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adam37910 3 months ago
this was 100% intended. He didn't make a fit over putting the chips in because of how uneasy the other player was that they were going to force him to call. If you noticed at first he was arguing it, then he saw the reaction of the player ( thus why he angel shooted) and played it off like it wasn't a angel shoot because he knew at that point he had the best hand.
If the player with J10 had a strong hand, he would have reacted differently, and the angel shooter would have as well.
frenzuh1 3 months ago
everyone want to be a hero" ... what does it matter to you if your not in the pot??
the only one that should call that is the other player in the hand or dealer.
IRONTOSS 3 months ago
fleyshman is a scumbag and deserves to lose every pot he ever plays anyway
cas84utd 3 months ago
100% angle shoot. Whether intended it to be or not, it was as a matter of principle, and all he had to do was say, "Sorry. I made a mistake!" (If, indeed, that's all it was.) But that's not what he did--instead he started defending his actions and saying that he didn't put his chips forward, etc. I concur with the other players at the table, therefore, that it was scummy...
WILLIAMCHANEL 3 months ago 2
And everyone knows Nicolas knows how it is a modest and honnest player. He sure did a mistake, but definetely not in purpose and not to provock a reaction...
choutoun 3 months ago
Comment removed
froggy0025 3 months ago
what tha fuck is an angle shoot any way?
is Not cheating, at very best is a bluff. Ok, so if I have to call a bet and I reach for chips to see the oponent reaction, even do I dont have a clear intention to call, im angle shooting. Any strategy that i have to my disposal to get information is a valid one. If my strategy is irritate my opponent and i slowroll them so they get angry and go on tilt and take advantage of that, its my choice. Is a game that is all about lying & strategy
deunasolavez1 3 months ago
@deunasolavez1 An "angle shoot" is the equivalent of moving a chess piece, letting go, seeing your opponents reaction, then moving it back. You have already committed to your move. The action of angle shooting follows the same concept. Officials see it as you have committed to calling but then you take your chips back because you do not like the reaction you received. It is much different then "hollywooding."
ioSONOvittoria 3 months ago
@ioSONOvittoria Except that his chips never left his hand, therefore he hadn't called yet..
TheKScott89 3 months ago
that was a clear angle move, it sucks that he wins the hand tho, he should by rule be penalized for a round as a result at the least
trainwrecktimmy77 3 months ago
@zex95966 I've seen Durrrr angle shoot Hellmuth in the past. Weird that no one was saying anything about that.
WaspSnG 3 months ago
@WaspSnG post a link?
Nuttingstube 3 months ago
@Nuttingstube
watch?v=G9nq1A1Xsh0
It's less bad than the guy in this video, but it's still an angle shoot.
Take a look at 4:17.
WaspSnG 3 months ago
@WaspSnG i'm suprised more wasn't made of this! looks like dwan angles and hellmuth tries to re-angle by reaching for his cards! good spot mate
Nuttingstube 3 months ago
@Nuttingstube Yeah I don't know if Hellmuth re-angles or just thought for a moment that Durrrr put his chips in. You have to credit Hellmuth either way for not giving something away there. At the time when I saw this, I didn't really knew what angle shots exactly were and that it could offend people. I think Dwans play is argueable, but isn't horrible, but the angle shot in this video is disgusting. Also check out Tony G angle shooting Phil Hellmuth. Kind of drama on that one. :-)
WaspSnG 3 months ago
@WaspSnG yeh the tony g vs hellmuth one is beyond out of order
Nuttingstube 3 months ago
Ok they dude points out the angle shoot to try to get an unknown player to call a bet. The guy who is not in the pot then apologizes to the player who just got called and lost. If you are right then do not apologize unless you are partners and colluding!!!!!!!
Powner187 3 months ago
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champions20000009 3 months ago
What difference does it make if he fake-pumped or not?
If he says abracadabra when he does it do his cards change to a flush?
What does his opponent lose when he gets fake-pumped?
This is the sort of nit-picking that turns me off poker.
m4rkyboy 3 months ago
@m4rkyboy the fake-pump might get a reaction from the opponent.
luf4rall 3 months ago
@luf4rall So?That is his fault for reacting.
Till your opponent announces 'call' or those chips hit the felt,anything bar grabbing his cards and looking at them should be permissable.
m4rkyboy 3 months ago
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@m4rkyboy you completely missed the point
treyslap 3 months ago
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champions20000009 4 months ago
heads up you should be able to that
golfmaniac007 4 months ago
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champions20000009 4 months ago
the 2 queer guys at the table pick right up on it
pigfarm187 4 months ago
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allstars617 4 months ago
I don't play poker although bizarrely quite enjoy watching it. Would someone mind explaining something to me? What was that guy allegedly trying to do with that forward motion\bring it back thing (in the context of who was winning\losing). Thanks.
6anatolyy4 4 months ago
@6anatolyy4 I'm not too Familiar with this but its a way to get a read from your Opponent, and can be used to tell if he / she is weak / strong.
Alister0510 4 months ago
@6anatolyy4 when someone does this they are looking for a reaction from the opponant, so if he thinks hes calling the opponant could give a reaction like a sigh or let off some other tell
robovhull 4 months ago
it's def an angle, but other player should probably stay out of it until the hand is over.
TournamentPokerEdge 4 months ago
what a terrible bet on the river by fleisman!!!! if he has an ace he's gonna call and if he doesnt let him bluff the worst hand..a pair of jacks has alot of showdown value on the river there.
Noogaiii 4 months ago
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VicenzoV 4 months ago
lol he just fucked up his plan what an idiot
67fullhouse 4 months ago
In addition.. Gamesmanship? You talked so much shit when you aren't even in the pot. Fucking hypocrite.
smonyboy 4 months ago
What the fuck is this! The guy who called on the one who did the angle shooting is equally unethical in my opinion. Pot calling the kettle black. Yea i know the guy in the hat should be given a penalty but his opponent did not see him angle shoot. So.. Shut the fuck up if you're not in the pot.. bearded motherfucker.
smonyboy 4 months ago
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champions20000009 4 months ago
the guy wasnt even looking anyway
TheFogey17 4 months ago
Honestly I don't see anything wrong with what that guy did in this video... I don't consider it forward motion, he didn't move his chips that far away.
Xjawa 4 months ago
@Xjawa he was staring at his opponent as he pretended to call - he's looking for a reaction, that's cheating.
saintjimmy456 4 months ago
@saintjimmy456 are you sure? dwan makes that same move blatently on what looks like wsop and it isnt controversial there at all. search dwan folds by a guy called easypokerchips
chrisatcgh 4 months ago
@saintjimmy456 oh ye your right it is against the rules
chrisatcgh 4 months ago
I saw a hand on TV that Phil Ivey was involved in where another player actually pushed a whole stack of chips towards the pot and then halfway there, basically said "Nuh-Uh" and pulled 'em back! Of course, the whole table called "Foul" and the judge or ref or whatever, who saw the whole thing, said "Hey, no big whoop" and let the renege stand! Ivey was pissed -- and rightly so. Weird.
localcrew 4 months ago
Depending on the casino, not all forward motion constitutes a call. Some casinos say your bet does not count until you actually release your chip/s over the betting line
MrAndyroo999 4 months ago
@MrAndyroo999 in Crown casino here in Melbourne, Australia, forward motion is NOT a call. i can push my chips all the way into the middle then drag them back. long as my hands dont release them chips, it's not a a call. and there's not betting line on the tables either
postflopper 4 months ago
not the greatest with all these poker terms, what its angle shooting?
jayjaymatt 4 months ago
@jayjaymatt it means you try to get an unfair advantage over your opponent by kinda phishing for information. Example: Person bets 100 and the opponents wonders what to do and has the 100 chip in his hand and thrusts his hand forward to get a reaction from the player who bet 100. He could also grab a stack of 3000 and push it forward to see the reaction of the original bettor without committing to the call or raise. Highly unethical as it could get the bettor to fold thinking theres a raise.
MrAndyroo999 4 months ago
2:41
Awkward
foramuricy 4 months ago
If I was in a pot and I missed someone cheating but others saw it, Id be pissed they didnt say something. It ruins the game.
firstpost111 4 months ago
sorry dan ??? you not in the hand keep your fuking mouth shut ...
AKWHITEY 4 months ago
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Forward motion
bestpokercoach 4 months ago
Forward motion
bestpokercoach 4 months ago
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champions20000009 4 months ago
Lol they were too quick to jump on his back to be fair - Justice was done when he won the pot
CharlieSheenEstevez 5 months ago
0:04 Weird ass cards.
normalpsychology 5 months ago 7
seat 6 confirmed gay lol
PunaniLicker69 5 months ago
@kdw85 Amen. If Fleyshman saw it, he would have right to saw something. Everybody else needs to STFU.
kevinja88 5 months ago
3:00
Notice how he's looking right at Fleyshman as he waves his chips, watching for his reaction. Didn't even own up to it either. What a classless cockjockey.
Candystripedshredder 5 months ago
Levi tried to angle but what's shitty was he tried to lie about it afterwards. We all saw his eyes when he pulled that move. Fucken lying fagot.
lgadwords 6 months ago
100% angle, he was all eyes to see the reaction
GaInGrEEnATL 6 months ago
What´s really disgusting about this is, that this guy really tries to explain that it was not forward motion. So come on, even with the other player not really looking it´s terrible poker etiquette, it´s BS!"
ToddKobrin 6 months ago
Those guys should just shut up until the hand is over.
lgadwords 6 months ago
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he didnt call
fbnzcps 7 months ago
james bord is a fat faggot go eat sum twinkies and get the fuck outta poker
limesoda23 7 months ago
The ultimate lesson that should be learned from this is not to get busy in other people's pots. Yes, it was an angle shoot and yes he should be called on it and penalised, but not until after the hand.
If you're not in the pot, keep your mouth shut.
kdw85 7 months ago 29
@kdw85 if you are at the table with someone who does that, you have the right to talk. you're pot or not.
jemmani22 5 months ago
@jemmani22 Well that's obviously not right. For example if you fold pre and a flop comes JJ4, u can't say 'man I folded a jack!' just because you're at the table. When you are not in the pot you have no right to influence the outcome in any way. It's the dealer/floorperson's job to enforce the rules.
jessicacarmody88 5 months ago
@jessicacarmody88 he wasnt influencing the outcome. he was saying the guy was cheating. if i was sitting next to my friend and me and you were out of a hand and NO one saw me whisper into is ear would you say somthing? what if i did it all night? if your going to be a slimeball i dont want you at my table either way
jemmani22 5 months ago
@jemmani22 Who is pot?
matthewkoz 5 months ago
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champions20000009 8 months ago
how did a controversial poker video end up with comments about iraq, afghanistan and muslims strapping bombs to their chests?? (which is a ridiculous stereotype btw)
dothequack 8 months ago
The American was right dumbass. Maybe you don't know how to play poker. Get a clue idiot.
mrbignasties 8 months ago
What the hell is everyone talking about? The guy was angle shooting and someone called him on it. I don't think anyone's nationality here matters.
TarWoman 8 months ago 29
that was not a angle shoot you idiots.. Fleyshman was not even looking at him so how the fuck would that be an angle shoot when he doesn't get any information from it... Its not an intentional angle shoot since he was not even looking at fleyshman because he would have realized fleyshman was not looking so he would not have done it if it was meant to be intentionally done to get an reaction.
Idiots don't realize what angle shooting is meant for.. NOT A ANGLE SHOOT!!
2lasiiJAkuppi 3 months ago
@2lasiiJAkuppi He was looking directly at him...
boots8709 3 months ago
@boots8709 fleyshman had his head down an was not looking at anything..
2lasiiJAkuppi 3 months ago
I disagree that that was unethical.It is only cheating when you have an advantage that others at the table dont have.A pump fake is a move available to everyone.
m4rkyboy 10 months ago
stupid fukin american fuk!!! always complaining and envolving themselves in other peoples problems!!! find something real to complain about like your corrupt fukin government!!
gardenofzebulon 1 year ago
Comment removed
nybombs 1 year ago
@gardenofzebulon AMEN!
ochoxxcincoxx 11 months ago 4
@gardenofzebulon - give me a break! That was clearly angle shooting at its worst!
2011blueman 10 months ago
@gardenofzebulon How does being an American automatically mean that someone always complains and involves themselves in other people's shit? Sorry we're a world super power. I lived in Australia, thus I won't make any ignorant stereotypical comments. Meet some Americans before you make judgments.
Pruane2ishot 9 months ago
@Pruane2ishot lol world super power? or world super bullies, full of greed. and if u have a problem with how the world views americans talk to ur corrupt government about how they represent americans when they involve themselves in world issues and bully their way to dominate and take over poor countries! who made america the world police asshole....and it shows at the poker table too. lol
gardenofzebulon 9 months ago
@gardenofzebulon corrupt? don't we have one of the most stable governments in the world with an entire lack of corruption in our political system? World police? Maybe. We're stable and advanced enough that we're trying to stop the Muslims from strapping bombs to their chest and yelling Allah Akbar in public places. Leaders aren't always elected..sometimes the best leader just needs to step forth and assume the position because others are anarchical, uninformed, uneducated idiots.
Pruane2ishot 9 months ago
@Pruane2ishot HAHAHA, stable governments in the world and not corrupt? hahahahah, i love u stupid americans! look at 9/11,,, a plane took down the trade centers? lol do u beleive in santa too?? look at the way bush was elected, look at the way u invaded iraq under false alegations suggesting they had weapons of mass distruction, oops wrong again!!! but hey america made billions out of oil! u fool wake up!! HAHAHA
gardenofzebulon 9 months ago
@Pruane2ishot.....so your great country has invaded afghanistan and iraq to save the world have they? lol,, not for the trillion dollar industries in afghanistan and the billion dolar oil in iraq? how many victims die a year from terrorist attacks? ummm 4 or 5? if that!! ,,,,, but how many victims die a year from lung cancer in your country? and preventable deseases? ohhh ummm hundreds of thousands!!!!! imagine if your stupid country invested 100 billion a year in that? lol,,,stable country? lol
gardenofzebulon 9 months ago
@gardenofzebulon Americans are beautiful people! Im Dutch myself and let me tell you, Americans are some of the most kindhearted en openminded folk out there. I dont know what shithole you are from, but you should really visit New York, Washington, Chicago or LA sometime. America is the most powerful state that has ever existed, dont hate them for it. All super powers have used their might to bully others
shnoepie1 4 months ago
@shnoepie1 thank you for the end of ur shitty coment because you admited that america is a bully! and bullies in my book are total assholes!!! only dutch people like getting fuked up the ass and sucking bully cock, beautiful people who murder millions of people for trillion dolar industry? lololol hahaha wake up u dutch peice of shit!
gardenofzebulon 1 month ago
@gardenofzebulon LOL what a dumbass bahah!!
brandonkkc 8 months ago