You are just yourself that you are on the right do not care about Muslims or others to prove a nice theory about Islam, but Islam is the beauty, wisdom and purity, when what I see words of Buster the last video laugh that he will build a bar to the homosexual side of the mosque will not move from feelings of Muslims Shi rather than the insistence of his reign Beware O ignorant
@oriolesfan61 verbal technicalities neither makes your argument logical nor accurate since 1) Muslims call "prayer areas" (in airports for example) "mosque" since, er, a mosque is "a Muslim place of worship". and 2) the building's Muslim representation is what is at issue, not the exact terminology over what kind of services and features are within it. Did you even watch the video you are making these comments on? or are you just trolling headlines on this news story to argue?
@oriolesfan61 it's like claiming outrage over a Christian community center at a place where thousands were murdered in the name of Christianity is invalid bc of the distinction between "chapel" & "church" when thats obviously not what is being objected to so... what is your point? doesnt appear that you have one.
And again the Constitution guarantees Muslims the right to worship there. How can you claim they are insensitive when you are being islamophobic, xenophobic, and unconstitutional. Wow. You just deny reality because of your hate and anti-American values.
@oriolesfan61 You lose all credibility and gain nothing when you resort to lying to make an emotion based point. Instead of dishonestly pretending that I claimed any legal issue, why cant you just respond to what i DID say? The Constitution guarantees lots of people to be jerks to lots of people. "It's legal!" is not a defense. Advising that people not be needlessly insensitive is not being "islamophobic, xenophobic, and unconstitutional". that doesnt even come close to making sense.
Wow. It's a cultural center with a worship space. That's a fact. And it's not visible from the Ground Zero site. You are repeating the lies of others without checking it out yourself. I have checked it myself.
@oriolesfan61 There's lots planned to be within it's 13 stories, including a pool, food stuff, conference rooms, an auditorium, theater, etc etc. What you're doing is not clarifying the issue with details as you seem to think, but rather obfuscating it with irrelevancies. Like saying "they're not building a McDonalds here, they're building a MALL" when it is the McDonalds in that malls food court that people are objecting to. You are repeating the lies of others without checking it out yourself.
@oriolesfan61 the latter being true is irrelevant as the two are not related and it's crazy-wrong to say the first. showing defiance towards something others are sensitive to is the definition of insensitivity.
@oriolesfan61 you also appear to be confused as to what "Ground Zero" means. the building was damaged by the 9/11 attacks. that's the definition of "Ground Zero". I dont know if you didnt know that, or if you thought the term only referred to the Trade Center or what, but either way the claim is incorrect. I dont know why you're so hopped up though. I dont care who builds what where, yet you pounced on my obvious observations as if they were crazy things I never even came close to saying.
Your video doesn't make sense unless you also outlaw all other religions from building there. Which means you'll have to knock down a church and another mosque. Maybe we should also stop any church being built in Oklahoma? Or just ban white people from building anything there. Ok Tim, you f*cked it up for everyone.
@sini8080 your comment doesnt make sense unless I said anything about outlawing anything. google 9/11 and you'll find out that it wasnt a slaughter in the name of "all religions". just one. hence why its insensitive.
@sini8080 dont make things up on my comments, please. you're thinking of a different video. i said nothing of the sort, let alone "exactly" that. the video also details "why they shouldnt build there" and includes exactly the silly strawman fallacy you just said about "everyone from that religion is a terrorist". nothing in this comment relates to my video. you owe me an apology.
@internetthemepark Ur right u did not say that & I have removed my comment by way of apology. I should have rewatched. How about this; u've said ppl find it offensive but since u agree that not all Muslims r terrorists and don't have an issue with Islam then where would the offense come from? U should hate the terrorists, not their attributes. If they had been supporters of a football club would it mean that club could not have a practice ground there? Even though they had NOTHING to do with it?
@sini8080 being "members" of a football club is a bad analogy, but if they committed the murders in the NAME of the football club then of COURSE it would be in bad taste to move the football practice near the murder scene. the fact that all football fans arent guilty of the murder has nothing to do with it. its a question of needless antagonization when you claim your goal is to heal.
@internetthemepark That's odd since there have been terrorist acts and wars in many places. There are churches in Hiroshima (near ground zero), Catholic and Protestant churches in Ireland, football stadiums at the places where fans rioted, there is a shinto temple near pearl harbor. Associating a whole faith with a few confused ppl is like saying Christians dropped the a-bomb so can't go to Japan. If you said terrorists cannot build there then it makes more sense.
@sini8080 you keep making unparallel analogies and I dont think its because you're not good at the rhetorical device or because you're dishonest - i think it just shows that there are no parallel examples that exist to compare to. all the vague connections to the buildings and events you imply dont even come halfway close to my examples (an aryan center near Auschwitz, a celebration of the atom bomb centter in Hiroshima or a Muslim center at 9/11's Ground Zero).
@sini8080 Your worst example of the bunch however is the "christians dropping the a-bomb", which is an analogy so poor that it does, unlike the others (which are merely fallacious) cross over into intellectual dishonesty as it implies that the 9/11 terrorists religion was as much a coincidental non-related fact as Christians and the a-bomb. ignoring that millions across the middle east and world agree with this Islamic brand of Nazism does not help your case you are attempting to make.
@internetthemepark Millions across the middle east agree terrorism? What utter rubbish. I thought the example was perfect. The terrorists were Muslim but they did not do the act of terror because it's Islamic and was part of their religion. This maybe where you're going wrong - I think you relating Islam and Nazism shows exposes your Islamaphobia.
@internetthemepark If you believe my comments about churches in Ireland or the shinto temple near pearl harbor are fallacious then all I can say is the facts are easily verifiable by anyone who wants to research. Wiki - Byodo-In_Temple
@sini8080 they easily verify you are wrong. there is no parallel between these as ive said at least 4 times and explained precisely why. ignoring my statements and corrections to instead repeat the same thing ive already debunked is not an argument. its just weird.
@internetthemepark Your explanation doesn't make sense. You've said you have nothing against Islam and then later in your comments you relate it to Nazism. The fact is that if you have nothing against Islam you should have nothing against the mosque. If you do have something against Islam then you're letting the few influence your opinion of the majority. The end.
@sini8080 wrong. never related Islam to Nazism. reading what I actually say instead of putting words in my mouth will clear up your confusion. Of course you are going to think my comments make no sense when you insist on making up nonsense in place of the linear logic i plainly laid out for you. Everything after "the fact is" has already been 100% debunked by me in both video and text form. You are not responding to me because I guess you're just interested in making yourself feel better.
@internetthemepark Like I said, everything I've said can be googled so should be easy to find. Your examples were not parallel to the current situation. An Aryan centre? How is that the same thing? Aryanism is inherently racist. I'll leave the youtube users to read the discussion and make up their own minds.
@sini8080 Like I said, no one is having trouble using google here except you. Learn what Aryans are and you'll know they are not inherently racist. Changing Aryans to Aryanism is the bigoted bait and switch lie as making Islam and Islamist synonymous. Way to go hypocrite. You've failed to make a single valid point amidst a sea of historically, factually and logically inaccurate claims. should have quit while you were behind.
@internetthemepark You seem to be having trouble using google since my facts are all correct but you fail to acknowledge that (hopefully not all youtube users are so lazy). Not a single point? Have you understood anything I've written? I think not. Who cares, the mosque is yesterdays news now.
Blaming islam for the ignorant acts of these so called muslim terrorist is like blaming all christians and caucasians for slavery and segregation. People need to realize that as adults, we are responsible for our own actions not others. This is their right to build and as far as sensitivity it's nine yrs later and two blocks away. Why is it ok for americans to be told to get over years of slavery/racism/murders but not over 9/11. I'm sick of double standards and hatred towards minorities!
Blaming islam for the ignorant acts of these so called muslim terrorist is like blaming all christians and caucasians for slavery and segregation. People need to realize that as adults, we are responsible for our own actions not others. This is their right to build and as far as sensitivity it's nine yrs later and two blocks away. Why is it ok for americans to be told to get over years of slavery/racism/murders but not over 9/11. I'm sick of double standards and hatred towards minorities!
Blaming islam for the ignorant acts of these so called muslim terrorist is like blaming all christians and caucasians for slavery and segregation. People need to realize that as adults, we are responsible for our own actions not others. This is their right to build and as far as sensitivity it's nine yrs later and two blocks away. Why is it ok for americans to be told to get over years of slavery/racism/murders but not over 9/11. I'm sick of double standards and hatred towards minorities!
2 blocks away? no it does not matter to Americans they tried to build a Mosque in California they said no they tried to build one in Nevada they said no now they r building one in New York and you claim the only reason ppl r against it is because its too close to ground zero is California close to ground zero? no Americans just HATE Muslims bottom line no matter how far away they build it..it'll never be far enough for racist bigots.
@wowwow180 your bigotry is unfounded. Mosques in the locations you cite exist, are newly constructed and go on unmolested. projecting your hate onto those who disagree is a poor tactic if your goal is noble. if you wish to spread hate and intolerance then its working but if you agree with the backers behind this ground zero venture and wish to build bridges, then needless insensitivy is not the way. thats not even controversial. :/
@ParaParagon oh? which country beats it out for that title? its not helpful to just say you dont like that part. help correct me so i know for next time: what country is more tolerant than the US?
@ParaParagon ok... I take a look at Canada, every European country and Australia and I see no substantial diversity of thought, appearance or culture. certainly nothing that even approaches (let alone rivals) America's. I don't see a diverse mix of ethnicity, religions or philosophies represented in the news, pop culture or political leaders of any of these examples nor do any of these places have similar histories to the US's battle for tolerance and government protected freedom.
@ParaParagon I didnt mention a specific state "and then call that America" so I don't quite get where you were going with that. Since your examples illustrate, not contradict my point, I literally don't understand what it is you're taking issue with exactly. Maybe you could clarify?
All the comparisons to WW2 aren't even close. Japan is a nation and as a nation it attacked the US. Germany was a nation that was hell bent on mass murder and taking over the world. 9/11 was carried out by a group of terrorists NOT an entire army representing a nation.
You listen to enough crazy analogies and explanations on Foxnews and pretty soon your mind gets corrupted into going against your own constitution.
That last guy on Foxnews is moronic. Foxnews viewers are THE most homophobic.
@teyzar for an analogy to not work it needs to... not work. instead you just described what an analogy is: a comparison of different things that share a common theme. nation vs religion is not a distinction that changes the thesis of the comparison so its actually not close to being not close since its right on point. you'd be right if i said something like "religions are just like governments in this way...".
sounds like you've been listening to too many moronic/crazy analogies :/
@internetthemepark By making comparisons to entire nations that were at war with the US, you're pretty much saying the 9/11 attacks were carried out by all muslims and the war is against all muslims. A better analogy would be regarding the one i heard where it was asked whether you would want to prevent Catholic churches from opening near children's playgrounds or even schools.
@richardland it would only be offensive if the arians were meeting to try and form a superior race. what if they were meeting and inviting other people to try and say "hey, we know nazis think we're awesome and stuff but we're just people". it's a mosque, it's not an al qaeda meeting place. you can't ban muslims from private property just because it's like SEVEN blocks away from ground zero and the plane hijackers were of some form of muslim religion. that's ridiculous.
@Captainoldspice Or not, because the transgressions on Native Americans took place centuries ago. Today, they rape our wallets with casinos all over the place, so I doubt they would mind accommodating a church, for a similar reason Americans didn't mind a Japanese cultural center constructed near Pearl Harbor, 45 years & decades of amiable diplomatic relations after the fact.
As far as I know, we have yet to embrace Osama bin Laden, Al Qaeda, or fundamentalist Muslims in such a manner.
Your position that the mosque/centre has failed in its task of building bridges is based on a knee jerk emotional reaction. What makes you think that this emotion, which has been irrationally placed on the people building the centre/mosque as it has nothing to do with 9/11, won't eventually dissipate?
@DeeCarlisle "just because 70% of the population finds this insulting doesnt mean its insulting to 70% of the population because some day they may change their minds" is what you just said and its retarded. if you want to build bridges then you wait until the emotion is gone down and THEN build. THEN maybe it will be a bridge builder. like maybe today a Japanese center at Pearl Harbor would be accepted. 50 years ago however...notsomuch. if you want to unite then dont be divisive. DUH.
@internetthemepark the thing is...I am pissed at people telling me my faith centers offend people! I am pissed at people telling me to go tell your brothers to stop killing people! Americans are my brothers! Who do you think my brothers are!?! I was born in Brooklyn! So my religion offends people now...because of some random ppl on the other side of the earth did some stupid shit. Japan actually attacked America! Muslims didnt attack US, it was a group of crazy fantatics.
@internetthemepark the thing is...I am pissed at people telling me my faith centers offend people! I am pissed at people telling me to go tell your brothers to stop killing people! Americans are my brothers! Who do you think my brothers are!?! I was born in Brooklyn! So my religion offends people now...because of some random ppl on the other side of the earth did some stupid shit. Japan actually attacked America! Muslims didnt attack US, it was a group of crazy fantatics.
And that is the problem with making this about the emotion of those involved. You have to show that their emotion is validated, and if it is not, the onus is not on the Muslims to do anything, but the real onus is on the opposition to realize their applying emotions to people they do not apply to. Hopefully when the centre is completed their emotion will begin to lift and they'll see the issue rationally, then the bridges can be built.
i'll give you 1 more lies (defined as something you know not to be true) and 2 more fallacies before you're done polluting my page with idiocy and incoherent ranting. you can have unlimited legitimate disagreement and debate and saucy language bolstered by factual analysis but no more lying and no more illogic stated as fact.
@richardland Ignored in the sense that you didn't counter it - you simply quoted a CNN poll, as if an appeal to popularity would work in your favor. You also simply restated the issue is about the deaths of 9/11, which has already been explained to you, this mosque/centre has no tie to the deaths of 9/11. The emotional opposition to the mosque is not rational.
@internetthemepark Hmm, you said the Omagh analogy was poor, you didn't explain why. You have yet to provide a single rational reason not tied to the emotion of 9/11 to be opposed to the mosque/centre.
@DeeCarlisle nice try, liar. except terrible try. you've been answered in surgeon like precise detail. come back when you're ready to pay attention and actually have a 2 way discussion instead of a whiny speech that just illustrates the depravity of your position.
@internetthemepark Simply calling me a 'liar', is in no way a rebuttal to any of my arguments. Are you intellectually honest enough to realize that many of your comments here have simply been deflections rather than rebuttals?
And that is the problem with making this about the emotion of those involved. You have to show that their emotion is validated, and if it is not, the onus is not on the Muslims to do anything, but the real onus is on the opposition to realize their applying emotions to people they do not apply to. Hopefully when the centre is completed their emotion will begin to lift and they'll see the issue rationally, then the bridges can be built.
@DeeCarlisle for the 322nd time: there is no other issue besides decency and respect toward the dead. there is no legal or constitutional argument in this controversy. it is entirely about the wisdom, benefit and meaning of constructing a meeting center for a group near a murder site perpetrated by that group. according to a new CNN poll you are in a smaller fringe wacko minority than people who think Obama wasnt born in the US. you have no argument. you're just embarrassing yourself.
@richardland Resorting to appeal to popularity, I see. If this argument is about respect for the dead, what about the Muslims who died on 9/11? The group building the mosque/centre have nothing to do with 9/11, so your statement that they perpetrated 9/11 is false. Your country isn't ran by polls, or mob rule. At one time the majority thought it was fine and dandy that black people couldn't vote. It's not about popularity but about what is right and rational.
@DeeCarlisle wrong again. so far you have not accurately labeled a single instance of a logical fallacy. you hear the word emotion and you apply a fallacy to it, you hear your stupid words labeled as such and you call it ad hominem - and now you hear popularity and you label it a fallacy. wrong, wrong, wrong. triple fail. google these things before you claim to define them. stop humiliating yourself by just tossing out random wrongness so carelessly.
@DeeCarlisle Your libel of me is getting to grotesque levels. you're done lying on my video, thanks. i never said anything 10% as outrageous as "the group building the mosque perpetrated 9/11". that's an insane lie. less outrageous and more comical is your shallow thinking about polls and popularity. you dont pay attention to anything i say - you just take the words i say and restructure them into straw man arguments you can more easily dismiss. pathetic.
@richardland What was the point of bringing up the poll, if not to say that my position is unpopular? Did you not use the poll, and then say that I was part of the fringe? You were indeed using the appeal to popularity fallacy.
@DeeCarlisle It's not about popularity but about what is right and rational. that's my position. don't try to pretend it's your counter to my position. if we agree then fine, but dont lie. dont you see that it only further suggests your point has no validity whatsoever when you must resort to distortion in literally every reply?
@richardland If we're agreed the issue is about what is rational, then maybe you will finally answer the question I've put to you a few dozen times about the rationality of the opposition.
@richardland Hey wait, what? You're now saying that the issue is about what is rational?? Didn't you earlier say it was about emotion? Yep, that's right, you did. Control and F and read your own comments if you don't believe me. When I said you were using appeal to emotion, you said you weren't using that fallacy because the very issue is about emotion. But now its about what is rational?
@DeeCarlisle Hey wait, pay the fuck attention. moron. not "now". always. "yet, thats right, you did". wrong. Control and F and read my comments if you don't believe me. stupid. the issue concerns the emotions of those concerned with the 9/11 attacks. if no one cares, then theres no rational reason to build a roller coaster on the "grave" site. You are terrible at this. either ask questions about clear things you dont understand or go away. stop falsely charging inaccuracy due to your stupidity.
@richardland So much anger, Richard. It lets me know I'm hitting a nerve with you and that you're completely losing your grasp of this debate. You get several details wrong in your rhetoric here. For one thing, the mosque/centre isn't on the grave site. Basic facts wrong yet again. You say ask a clear question, and I will. Clear this up for me - is this issue about emotion or rationality? It can't be both, and I've shown the emotion of the opposition is irrational.
@DeeCarlisle you're so desperate to look like you're making a coherent point that you keep resorting to claims of victory like this. you whine about being told when you fail, say you're done arguing but note that i shouldnt take that as a sign that you've run out of steam (ya, okay, sure) and now this "oooh, im getting to you" bullshit. terrible try. i'll keep calling your stupidity stupid and if you need to imagine me enraged to feel like you're gaining an upper hand then go for it.
@DeeCarlisle for the dozenth time: your claim is bullshit. you're saying that someone needs to rationally validate their emotion over their dead mother in order for someone insulting their mother to be an insult. if you cant argue why your fact-free premise is valid then move on. quit harping on your wrongness by projecting it onto others.
@DeeCarlisle groups responsible for a mass murder planting their roots at the site of the murder is offensive. offense is an emotion. the emotion is logically connected to the action. TRY to pay attention. its not a hard line of linear logic to follow.
@DeeCarlisle oh crap, i thought a mosque was a muslim prayer center and that 9/11 was perpetrated by muslims! what an embarrassing mistake for me to ma---oh wait... you're an idiot. okay, never mind then. everythings cool.
@internetthemepark FINALLY you reveal your islamophobia. You don't even care that they're a different religious sect, or that they're outspoken against terrorism. They're Muslim. The terrorists were Muslim. Doesn't matter that they were a handful, no Muslims get to practice their freedom of religion from now on. Does this mean that you're paranoid that all Catholics are child molestors? I doubt you're that consistent.
@kainedamo FINALLY you keep lying. I specifically said the group is NOT responsible for 9/11. you get blocked for libeling me several times after being corrected (which is an abuse of my tolerance since i shouldnt be putting up with such groundless hateful accusations even once). sects and denunciations are red herrings.
I never said anything about being anti-religious freedom for groups that kill a few thousand people here and there and never said i was paranoid about all of any group. liar.
In your info bar ' is there a reason that Muslims should not follow the same expectations of decency and sensitivity that literally any other group would?'
Why do you hold this expectation of decency and sensitivity of Muslims at a higher standard than those opposed to the centre/mosque, when those opposed have displayed insensitivity to the Muslims who died on 9/11? I assume you've seen photos of the planned site. You can't see ground zero. No rational opposition exists.
@DeeCarlisle Am I being punk'd or are you really this stupid? You just accurately reproduced my question of why Muslims should not follow the same expectations of decency of any other group and followed it by an interpretation that says the exact opposite. the exact, friggin, opposite. i said "Muslims should be treated like everyone else" you say that that means "Muslims should be held at a higher standard". you fail at english. and at life.
@richardland Quite fond of the word fail, aren't you? Are you going to say 'pwned' next? Do grow up, Richard. I have come to the conclusion that you want to hold the Muslims to a higher standard than their opposition, because your argument is based on the deaths of 9/11 and the emotion surrounding it, but the opposition is being insensitive to the fact Muslims also died on 9/11 - but I don't see you holding them to the same standard as you expect of the Muslims.
@DeeCarlisle Quite fond of failing, aren't you? Not so fond of having it pointed out. Do grow up, Dee. if you cant take the heat of having your failures pointed out to you, take a more measured approach to your disagreement. try to pay attention, dont ignore corrections, dont say random shit and try to pass it off as a logical argument, etc and you wont have to cry over having your glittering ignorance put on parade.
@DeeCarlisle you have come to the conclusion that i want to hold muslims to a higher standard instead of the explicitly stated SAME standard (repeated over and over in comment replies) because you're sick. mentally sick. you don't communicate clearly and you don't think clearly yet you feel strongly in areas you're unable to think strongly in. this causes you to lie and i wont have it. thats your last lie credit.
you have already been corrected twice that the fact that muslims also died on 9/11 is a complete red herring that makes no sense. aryans died in holocaust. that doesnt make an aryan tribute near a death camp appropriate. you failed to restate and explain yourself and instead just parrot the same debunked fallacy. that leaves you with 1 fallacy left.
@richardland The Ayran analogy doesn't work as I have explained in detail before. The Omagh analogy which is more apt, Catholics died in an attack perpetrated by Catholics. What's this about an 'ayran tribute', you don't think the mosque/centre is a tribute to the deaths of 9/11, do you? It would certainly explain why you're so emotionally hostile!
It's boring arguing with someone so needlessly hostile, who won't answer any of my valid questions, so I think we should end the discussion. Don't take it that I can't continue, because I have a few rebuttals in mind for your recent comments, pointing out the hypocrisy and your flawed reasoning, but if I did, this conversatioin would just go on and on, all the while you avoid my simple and valid requests I have put forwrd to you time again. And the mosque/centre is not related to the deaths.
@DeeCarlisle It's boring arguing with someone so needlessly dumb. I'm not hostile towards you. just time wasting comments. dont deliver passionately held option that is backed up by literally nothing, be intellectually honest about recent and nonrecent history and show the people you reply to the respect of actually paying attention to what you're replying to instead of making shit up and then you'll have a credible case to expect a more tame discourse. otherwise you're just a hypocrite.
@DeeCarlisle the "i COULD do this if i really wanted to... so dont think i cant... but im not gonna" is a playground excuse that even the kids on the playground never believe. you are even ungraceful in defeat. you've replied over a dozen times with inaccurate and silly comments, got your ass handed to you and now you want to go home and not play anymore. i get it. just dont try to weasel out of the humiliating truth. accept, learn from, move on.
@richardland "You don't want to continue the conversation, therefore I win".
Seriously? You don't see your own hypocrisy here in labeling my stated desire to end the conversation as childish, and then stating that you have defeated me? Childish and hypocritical.
4) Throughout all of this you refer to my comments as dumb, poor, and various other ad hominems, without actually explaining why. You bring up terms from logical fallacies and don't explain how they apply. You haven't answered my valid questions, nor countered many of my valid arguments.
@DeeCarlisle 4) wrong. adjectives are not ad hominems. stupid.
see what i did there? i corrected you and then used an accurate adjective. that is not an ad hominem attack. ad hominem fallacies are circular arguments that say "you are wrong because you are [negative adjective]". i have not done that. i have said "you are wrong because of these facts and logical deconstructions. also - you're an idiot". that is not ad hominem. it is colorful yet accurate language. quit lying.
@richardland Ah, fuck it - lets go. Its fun allowing you to expose how full of shit you are. Your claim that you have argued from the position of "you are wrong because of these facts and logical deconstructions" is fictional. Take for example my Omagh bomb example (something you originally brought up as an analogy yourself but curiously when I bring it up it magically became a "poor" analogy). You refered to the analogy as poor without explaining why, while your ayran analogy...
@richardland ... while your ayran analogy, something entirely fictional, something that isn't relevant for reasons I have previously pointed out, is something you still stand by? Hilarious hypocrisy!
3) The other argument you bring up in your video is a false analogy and I explained why its a false analogy in your comments page, something you've falsely accused me of not answering. Not only that, but I've provided a much more apt analogy - something you even specificly brought up - the worst bomb in Northern Ireland's history - but when I brought up the real event, you said this was a poor analogy, without even explaining why.
@DeeCarlisle 3) go back and read the comment. it is explained. out of diligence i went back and reread your comment on my aryan analogy and - whadda ya know - you're misrepresenting the record AGAIN. you mention it but do not counter it as i did with yours. stop trying to rewrite recent history as well as macro history. you fail at it.
@richardland Do you not know how to use the control plus f function? I must assume you did not go back and read my counters to your fictional ayran example. Hey, when did you counter my Omagh bomb example, which is not fictional? Oh thats right, you didn't. You just said it was poor, but you didn't explain the why. Again you project your flaws onto me.
3) You've stated that the issue is over emotion, something that was not made clear in your video at all. I've countered that if the issue is over emotion then the opposition is being insensitive to the emotions of the Muslims because Muslims died on 9/11 too, and I sent a video to you to further emphasis that point. You have not countered this position.
@DeeCarlisle 2) do not blame the clarity of the video, which is crystal, for your own willful blindness and filtered hearing. the video repeats a theme of appropriateness, using an analogous example of a death site and a nearby building related to the murders of the death site. what, if not sensitivity to the concerns of those who hold the murder site sacred did you take that to mean? your counter makes no sense. aryans died in holocaust too so an aryan center near a death camp would be ok? wtf.
@richardland When you say nearby building related to the murders of the site, I sure hope you're not referring to the planned community centre/mosque, for there is no connection between it and the deaths of 9/11. I sure hope that's not what you mean, because then you'd be exposing your own emotional bias.
Your private message to me once again is a projection of your own debating flaws onto me. Here is a point for point run down summary of our debate as I see it - 1) The main argument of your video is that the Mosque should move because they're not building the bridges they want to with the opposition. I counter that the opposition's position is not rational but based on the emotion of 9/11, you fail on multiple occasions to provide a rational argument not based on the emotion of 9/11.
@DeeCarlisle 1) you illustrate the fallacy in your argument in the sentence immediately following it, therefore you are not asking me to rebut a legitimate argument, but rather correct your fallacious tautology. i have done so. i will do it once more: building bridges through an emotionally sensitive subject cannot be done by ignoring the emotions of the side you claim to want to bridge.
@DeeCarlisle 1B) your demand that i rationalize the mourning of the 9/11 murdered is illegitimate and irrelevant to the argument. i am not religious and i dont believe in spiritual symbolism so i dont think any ghosts of the dead are going to cry any ghost tears over any earthly buildings. life is for the living and if the living are offended by a construction then it will not build bridges. you admit that the intention is to heal WHILE admitting it is not healing. you have defeated yourself.
@richardland One more comment if I may - your position that the community centre has failed to build bridges when it has not even finished completion, and when there are many in the local area who support it, is founded on the knee jerk emotional reaction of the opposition - is there any reason to believe that given time, when they see the community centre/mosque isn't being used to train terrorists, that if its actually a good addition to the community, their emotion will begin to lift?
Imam Rauf and his wife sought out the advice of the 92nd Street Y (a Jewish organization) about modeling the community center after them. They also sought and obtained the advice and support of the Mayor's office, the community board, zoning and a number of other community organizations. That's why they received unanimous approval from the community board, zoning and landmarks. They had no idea there would be an opposition, including people who just want to politicize the issue.
@DeeCarlisle this is the dumbest response ever. "the people who needed zoning permits to build on a location consulted authorities responsible for such permits" is not in question. quit tossing out red herrings and making straw men arguments and just focus like a laserbeam or shut up. if you cant follow coherent direct responses then dont respond. "they had no idea there would be an opposition" is a groundless statement. you're just making things up. stop that.
Throughout our little debate your hostility towards me has been tinged in all of your posts, while you falsely accuse me of not answering the ayran question (which I answered twice), use ad hominem, playing games of deflection without answering my valid questions, and state my positions are poor without actually explaining why. Any neutral reader following the conversation can see who is being logical, and who is simply using words from a logical fallacy website to make themselves sound smart.
@DeeCarlisle so you're admitting that you looked up a logical fallacy website to try to sound smart. fine. good. you didnt answer my aryan question twice however, so dont lie to make yourself look better. the record is right here on the page. mentioning the premise is not answering the challenge.
@richardland I'll make it very simple for you. Click 'view all comments'. Use control and F, look for the word 'imaginary', that's one of my responses to your ayran suggestion. Follow the same process again and search for the word 'obvious', and you will see my second comment dealing with your ayran suggestion.
I must emphasis that the main point of your argument relies on the false premise that those opposed to the mosque have a legitimate argument.
I have been waiting for anyone to show me why they should not be permitted to build their mosque/community center. As of yet, no one has been arrested, charged or shown to be anything other than within their rights as guaranteed under US Constitution.
The only evidence I need to lend my support is the absence of any wrongdoing from these sufis.
@DeeCarlisle I must emphasize that you have 3 times restated and repacked your argument, ignoring ALL corrections and counterpoints to it. you've revealed no false premise, only falsely claimed one exists. you've not argued why, despite being specifically asked, you falsely think everyone who disagrees with you on the issue are lacking in legitimacy. thus you should stop commenting if you have nothing to say. you are just parroting stock lines, not responding to counterpoints (aka: a discussion)
@richardland What counterpoints? I have made my case for why the opposition don't have a legitimate argument, and I've asked you several times now if you can think of a rational opposition to the mosque that is not tied into the emotion of 9/11. Your silence on that speaks volumes to me. The Muslims have no logical obligation to follow the demands of people who's argument is based solely on the emotion of an event that these mosque folk have nothing to do with....
@DeeCarlisle start with the counterpoints ive provided in every reply so far. its a great way to begin a discussion. you however dont appear interested in talking to anyone but yourself as you have only restated over and over your baseless assertions. this comment is the first time you've provided insight to your thought process so don't lie by claiming otherwise. first time. not "several times". try to pay attention to your own comments.
@DeeCarlisle so why are you so needlessly divisive and insensitive then? 70% of Americans are against it because it is about as offensive as putting up a "Salute to firebombs" in Tokyo. Or building the American embassy at ground zero in Hiroshima. Or a Catholic church next to the site of the worst bombing ever in Northern Ireland. why do you seek to divide, insult and offend just to strut your stated principal of "because i can"?
@richardland All of those things are examples of appeal to emotion.
And in regards to Northern Ireland. Omagh had the worst bomb, they used Lisanelly baracks as a temporary mortuary. 10 years on the baracks is empty, Catholics and Protestant churches put plans in place to rebuild the baracks as a mixed religious school area.
So according to your logic, Northern Ireland is more tolerant than USA.
@DeeCarlisle you're using a fallacy while attempting to call out a fallacy. i have not used any appeal to emotion fallacies. the issue is over emotion. therefore talking about the emotions involved is not a fallacy of emotional appeal, it is plain and open talk about the situation. duh.
@richardland If you want to talk about the emotions of the situation, its very easy to argue that the opposition to the mosque/centre are being very insensitive to the fact that innocent Muslims also died on 9/11. Is there a reason that the opposition should not follow the same expectations of decency and sensitivity that literally any other group would? I'll send you a YoungTurks video to further emphasis the emotional point from the POV of Muslims.
@DeeCarlisle your branch off of my valid analogy is poor, unparalleled and non descriptive of a similar situation. you are either lying to yourself or insulting my intelligence to try to get me to think "mosque near muslim murder site" is parallel to "catholic and protestant funded venture for mixed religious school area". you fail at logic.
@richardland You're just saying words, you're not making any kind of point for point rationalization for how the words you're throwing around apply to my arguments. You're also projecting your own debating flaws onto me - I must have asked you 4 times now for a rational opposition to the mosque not based on the emotion of 9/11 and you have not answered. More to come...
@richardland ... And the reason I've asked you 4 or so times is because earlier you had resorted to ad hominem by labelling me as a bigot, because I didn't acknowledge that the opposition to the mosque have a legitimate viewpoint. Well I presented my position that they don't have a legitimate viewpoint, that their view is based on the emotion of 9/11, and is therefore irrational because these people aren't connected to 9/11. More to come...
@richardland ... How did you reach the conclusion that your analogy was valid, while mines is poor? Your exact words in your analogy - 'the worst bombing ever in Northern Ireland'. I presented to you exactly that - the Omagh bombing. And the fact that Catholics are involved with building a mixed religious school on the ground that actually had the dead. Google it. The Muslims are building a community centre where all are welcome, so how is it a poor analogy?
@richardland Continuing on with the mixed school planned for Lisanelly, its as similar a comparison to the mosque/community centre as we're likely to get. The school in Omagh will be mixed, the Muslims have stated their community centre will be open to everyone. You could say the Lisanelly baracks has more emotion tied to it seeing as dead bodies were actually kept there. The coat factory in New York had some debree hit it... that's it. Thanks for your time in reading my comments.
@DeeCarlisle your welcome for my time in reading your comments. i just wish you respected that time more by 1) listening to responses and rebutting them from the beginning instead of grandstanding until being repeatedly challenged on the same points, 2) answering more than one challenge you were given 3) not using bizarre rhetorical tricks like calling a debate about sensitivity to emotions invalid because of "appeals to emotions". i mean really...
@DeeCarlisle so you're admitting that you're not actually interested in any kind of meaningful dialogue and you really only came here to spout soapbox style rants and then run away. got it. well if you change your mind, it would be nice if you answered my repeatedly asked and repeated ignored question about an Aryan center near Auschwitz. you're down with that, right? because your stated position is that whatever is legally allowed is thereby moral?
we're actually not overstating the case at all. building will take place within a building. major construction. not just redecorating an empty space in a stripmall. therefore it is a point of detail, not an overstatement. it is a red herring to talk about what muslims currently use the building for as there is no protest over the space's current use.
i like that you are doing a video on a recent event.
but I can't tell if you're joking or not. an american right is to be able to practice any religion and worship at any place, so the people who are stupid enough to think that all muslims are terrorists should just go cry a river. it's not insensitive, it's exactly the opposite, they are trying to "build bridges", and I say all the power to them.
@DeceivingSecrets thanks. i always start to do videos on news items but then figure no one cares so i scrap it and do something random.
its legal, ya, but if its offensive to people then its not much of a healing tool. do you agree then with my holocaust analogy? would it be appropriate "bridge building" to construct a meeting center for blonde haired blue eyed people near the site of a death camp where people where murdered because they were thought to have inferior genes?
LOL @ "If you disagree with me, you're a racist homophobe." I read somewhere that Muslims tend to build mosques at sites of battle victories. I COULD BE 100% WRONG THOUGH. Just what I heard.
@GregIsGo i read that too and also have yet to verify its legitimacy. funny though how the commentator who mocks the idea of disagreement equaling "you're a bigot" has presented itself in these comments and messages to me so quickly. people REALLY use that as an argument against everything these days... sad
You can't just placate the idiots who oppose the mosque for no rational reason. If you placate them, where's it end? You can't claim that the USA is the most tolerant nation on Earth, and on the other hand say that muslims should abide by different rules than everyone else simply because there are a lot of islamophobes who oppose them.
@DeeCarlisle so far you have offered nothing but fallacy based reasoning, false claims and hyperbolic hate directed at a legitimate point of view. You claim I state that muslims should abide by different rules when the video states that they should do the OPPOSITE. I literally said that muslims should just abide by the rules of decency that anyone else would be expected to and you ignored it so you could make up your own BS argument. you are not arguing with my words, you are making sh#t up.
@richardland Basically you're entire case that the mosque/centre should be moved is because there is an opposition to it, which you claim is detrimental to the goal of building bridges. My point is that the opposition is irrational and DON'T have a legitimate point of view on this. Their view is based entirely on emotion. Muslims could do nothing to placate people like that, whether it were to build the mosque a mile away or in another city. Only with time will they realize these Muslims...
@DeeCarlisle 100% wrong again. its not a long winded video nor does it contain complex and nuanced points. you should be able to grasp them much easier than you are. my "entire case" is not as you stated. watch the video. that is one reason out of several and it is not a "claim" by me that "opposition is detrimental to the goal of building bridges". its a fact. you dont needlessly offend a populous you're trying to build a bridge to.
@richardland How do these Muslims build bridges to the type of people opposed to the Mosque, if they are to hide away everytime there is opposition? There is already evidence of bridge building with more rational people. A group of 9/11 families have come out in support of the mosque. The President has come out in support of the mosque. I think the mosque has a tremendous chance to build bridges. To say that they should move because of an initial knee jerk opposition is short sighted.
@DeeCarlisle you have no made a point that opposition is irrational. you've made a statement that is backed up by nothing and makes no rebuttal to my points on the contrary. your view is based entirely on emotion and that is why you project that motive onto others. you have no evidence that Muslims could do nothing to placate people in opposition to this building proposal. you're living in a world of imagination and theory, not facts.
You are just yourself that you are on the right do not care about Muslims or others to prove a nice theory about Islam, but Islam is the beauty, wisdom and purity, when what I see words of Buster the last video laugh that he will build a bar to the homosexual side of the mosque will not move from feelings of Muslims Shi rather than the insistence of his reign Beware O ignorant
alnmer2004 2 months ago
man stop watching CNN
TheZizo50 11 months ago
@TheZizo50 why?
internetthemepark 11 months ago
@internetthemepark I think u haven't heard about the huge conspiracy to control the world. Man do ur research about it , it's better to use Youtube .
search for (new world order ) . U r a smart guy don't let them fool u .
TheZizo50 11 months ago
Your Mall/McDonalds argument is Illogical since the community center does NOT contain a mosque either.
oriolesfan61 1 year ago
@oriolesfan61 verbal technicalities neither makes your argument logical nor accurate since 1) Muslims call "prayer areas" (in airports for example) "mosque" since, er, a mosque is "a Muslim place of worship". and 2) the building's Muslim representation is what is at issue, not the exact terminology over what kind of services and features are within it. Did you even watch the video you are making these comments on? or are you just trolling headlines on this news story to argue?
internetthemepark 1 year ago
@oriolesfan61 it's like claiming outrage over a Christian community center at a place where thousands were murdered in the name of Christianity is invalid bc of the distinction between "chapel" & "church" when thats obviously not what is being objected to so... what is your point? doesnt appear that you have one.
internetthemepark 1 year ago
And again the Constitution guarantees Muslims the right to worship there. How can you claim they are insensitive when you are being islamophobic, xenophobic, and unconstitutional. Wow. You just deny reality because of your hate and anti-American values.
oriolesfan61 1 year ago
@oriolesfan61 You lose all credibility and gain nothing when you resort to lying to make an emotion based point. Instead of dishonestly pretending that I claimed any legal issue, why cant you just respond to what i DID say? The Constitution guarantees lots of people to be jerks to lots of people. "It's legal!" is not a defense. Advising that people not be needlessly insensitive is not being "islamophobic, xenophobic, and unconstitutional". that doesnt even come close to making sense.
internetthemepark 1 year ago
Wow. It's a cultural center with a worship space. That's a fact. And it's not visible from the Ground Zero site. You are repeating the lies of others without checking it out yourself. I have checked it myself.
oriolesfan61 1 year ago
@oriolesfan61 There's lots planned to be within it's 13 stories, including a pool, food stuff, conference rooms, an auditorium, theater, etc etc. What you're doing is not clarifying the issue with details as you seem to think, but rather obfuscating it with irrelevancies. Like saying "they're not building a McDonalds here, they're building a MALL" when it is the McDonalds in that malls food court that people are objecting to. You are repeating the lies of others without checking it out yourself.
internetthemepark 1 year ago
It is not insensitive It is their constitutional right
oriolesfan61 1 year ago
@oriolesfan61 the latter being true is irrelevant as the two are not related and it's crazy-wrong to say the first. showing defiance towards something others are sensitive to is the definition of insensitivity.
internetthemepark 1 year ago
.It is not a mosque And it is not at Ground Zero
oriolesfan61 1 year ago
@oriolesfan61 Yes it is and yes it is. sorry.
internetthemepark 1 year ago
@oriolesfan61 you also appear to be confused as to what "Ground Zero" means. the building was damaged by the 9/11 attacks. that's the definition of "Ground Zero". I dont know if you didnt know that, or if you thought the term only referred to the Trade Center or what, but either way the claim is incorrect. I dont know why you're so hopped up though. I dont care who builds what where, yet you pounced on my obvious observations as if they were crazy things I never even came close to saying.
internetthemepark 1 year ago
"And if you disagree with me you are a racist- homophobe." <3 <3 <3 Awesomeee
ScaryTeri101 1 year ago 2
Your video doesn't make sense unless you also outlaw all other religions from building there. Which means you'll have to knock down a church and another mosque. Maybe we should also stop any church being built in Oklahoma? Or just ban white people from building anything there. Ok Tim, you f*cked it up for everyone.
sini8080 1 year ago
@sini8080 your comment doesnt make sense unless I said anything about outlawing anything. google 9/11 and you'll find out that it wasnt a slaughter in the name of "all religions". just one. hence why its insensitive.
internetthemepark 1 year ago
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sini8080 1 year ago
@sini8080 dont make things up on my comments, please. you're thinking of a different video. i said nothing of the sort, let alone "exactly" that. the video also details "why they shouldnt build there" and includes exactly the silly strawman fallacy you just said about "everyone from that religion is a terrorist". nothing in this comment relates to my video. you owe me an apology.
internetthemepark 1 year ago
@internetthemepark Ur right u did not say that & I have removed my comment by way of apology. I should have rewatched. How about this; u've said ppl find it offensive but since u agree that not all Muslims r terrorists and don't have an issue with Islam then where would the offense come from? U should hate the terrorists, not their attributes. If they had been supporters of a football club would it mean that club could not have a practice ground there? Even though they had NOTHING to do with it?
sini8080 1 year ago
@sini8080 being "members" of a football club is a bad analogy, but if they committed the murders in the NAME of the football club then of COURSE it would be in bad taste to move the football practice near the murder scene. the fact that all football fans arent guilty of the murder has nothing to do with it. its a question of needless antagonization when you claim your goal is to heal.
internetthemepark 1 year ago
@internetthemepark That's odd since there have been terrorist acts and wars in many places. There are churches in Hiroshima (near ground zero), Catholic and Protestant churches in Ireland, football stadiums at the places where fans rioted, there is a shinto temple near pearl harbor. Associating a whole faith with a few confused ppl is like saying Christians dropped the a-bomb so can't go to Japan. If you said terrorists cannot build there then it makes more sense.
sini8080 1 year ago
@sini8080 you keep making unparallel analogies and I dont think its because you're not good at the rhetorical device or because you're dishonest - i think it just shows that there are no parallel examples that exist to compare to. all the vague connections to the buildings and events you imply dont even come halfway close to my examples (an aryan center near Auschwitz, a celebration of the atom bomb centter in Hiroshima or a Muslim center at 9/11's Ground Zero).
internetthemepark 1 year ago
@sini8080 Your worst example of the bunch however is the "christians dropping the a-bomb", which is an analogy so poor that it does, unlike the others (which are merely fallacious) cross over into intellectual dishonesty as it implies that the 9/11 terrorists religion was as much a coincidental non-related fact as Christians and the a-bomb. ignoring that millions across the middle east and world agree with this Islamic brand of Nazism does not help your case you are attempting to make.
internetthemepark 1 year ago
@internetthemepark Millions across the middle east agree terrorism? What utter rubbish. I thought the example was perfect. The terrorists were Muslim but they did not do the act of terror because it's Islamic and was part of their religion. This maybe where you're going wrong - I think you relating Islam and Nazism shows exposes your Islamaphobia.
sini8080 1 year ago
@internetthemepark If you believe my comments about churches in Ireland or the shinto temple near pearl harbor are fallacious then all I can say is the facts are easily verifiable by anyone who wants to research. Wiki - Byodo-In_Temple
sini8080 1 year ago
@sini8080 they easily verify you are wrong. there is no parallel between these as ive said at least 4 times and explained precisely why. ignoring my statements and corrections to instead repeat the same thing ive already debunked is not an argument. its just weird.
internetthemepark 1 year ago
@internetthemepark Your explanation doesn't make sense. You've said you have nothing against Islam and then later in your comments you relate it to Nazism. The fact is that if you have nothing against Islam you should have nothing against the mosque. If you do have something against Islam then you're letting the few influence your opinion of the majority. The end.
sini8080 1 year ago
@sini8080 wrong. never related Islam to Nazism. reading what I actually say instead of putting words in my mouth will clear up your confusion. Of course you are going to think my comments make no sense when you insist on making up nonsense in place of the linear logic i plainly laid out for you. Everything after "the fact is" has already been 100% debunked by me in both video and text form. You are not responding to me because I guess you're just interested in making yourself feel better.
internetthemepark 1 year ago
@internetthemepark Like I said, everything I've said can be googled so should be easy to find. Your examples were not parallel to the current situation. An Aryan centre? How is that the same thing? Aryanism is inherently racist. I'll leave the youtube users to read the discussion and make up their own minds.
sini8080 1 year ago
@sini8080 Like I said, no one is having trouble using google here except you. Learn what Aryans are and you'll know they are not inherently racist. Changing Aryans to Aryanism is the bigoted bait and switch lie as making Islam and Islamist synonymous. Way to go hypocrite. You've failed to make a single valid point amidst a sea of historically, factually and logically inaccurate claims. should have quit while you were behind.
internetthemepark 1 year ago
@internetthemepark You seem to be having trouble using google since my facts are all correct but you fail to acknowledge that (hopefully not all youtube users are so lazy). Not a single point? Have you understood anything I've written? I think not. Who cares, the mosque is yesterdays news now.
sini8080 1 year ago
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Blaming islam for the ignorant acts of these so called muslim terrorist is like blaming all christians and caucasians for slavery and segregation. People need to realize that as adults, we are responsible for our own actions not others. This is their right to build and as far as sensitivity it's nine yrs later and two blocks away. Why is it ok for americans to be told to get over years of slavery/racism/murders but not over 9/11. I'm sick of double standards and hatred towards minorities!
87MsCutie 1 year ago
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Blaming islam for the ignorant acts of these so called muslim terrorist is like blaming all christians and caucasians for slavery and segregation. People need to realize that as adults, we are responsible for our own actions not others. This is their right to build and as far as sensitivity it's nine yrs later and two blocks away. Why is it ok for americans to be told to get over years of slavery/racism/murders but not over 9/11. I'm sick of double standards and hatred towards minorities!
87MsCutie 1 year ago
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Blaming islam for the ignorant acts of these so called muslim terrorist is like blaming all christians and caucasians for slavery and segregation. People need to realize that as adults, we are responsible for our own actions not others. This is their right to build and as far as sensitivity it's nine yrs later and two blocks away. Why is it ok for americans to be told to get over years of slavery/racism/murders but not over 9/11. I'm sick of double standards and hatred towards minorities!
87MsCutie 1 year ago
wowwow180 1 year ago
@wowwow180 your bigotry is unfounded. Mosques in the locations you cite exist, are newly constructed and go on unmolested. projecting your hate onto those who disagree is a poor tactic if your goal is noble. if you wish to spread hate and intolerance then its working but if you agree with the backers behind this ground zero venture and wish to build bridges, then needless insensitivy is not the way. thats not even controversial. :/
internetthemepark 1 year ago
Well said, internetthemepark. Praise be to the acknowledgment of reality!
Adeon55 1 year ago 3
@Adeon55 thanks
internetthemepark 1 year ago
I was agreeing with you all the way until you said America to be the most tolerant country in the world... otherwise you made your points well
ParaParagon 1 year ago
@ParaParagon oh? which country beats it out for that title? its not helpful to just say you dont like that part. help correct me so i know for next time: what country is more tolerant than the US?
internetthemepark 1 year ago
@internetthemepark
Take a look to your neighbour, Canada...
A few European countries, such as the Netherlands.
Australia.
I am not saying USA is intolerant but it's def. not the most tolerant.
You have to look at the USA as a whole; as a nation; not pick your favourite state and then call that America.
ParaParagon 1 year ago
@ParaParagon ok... I take a look at Canada, every European country and Australia and I see no substantial diversity of thought, appearance or culture. certainly nothing that even approaches (let alone rivals) America's. I don't see a diverse mix of ethnicity, religions or philosophies represented in the news, pop culture or political leaders of any of these examples nor do any of these places have similar histories to the US's battle for tolerance and government protected freedom.
internetthemepark 1 year ago
@ParaParagon I didnt mention a specific state "and then call that America" so I don't quite get where you were going with that. Since your examples illustrate, not contradict my point, I literally don't understand what it is you're taking issue with exactly. Maybe you could clarify?
internetthemepark 1 year ago
All the comparisons to WW2 aren't even close. Japan is a nation and as a nation it attacked the US. Germany was a nation that was hell bent on mass murder and taking over the world. 9/11 was carried out by a group of terrorists NOT an entire army representing a nation.
You listen to enough crazy analogies and explanations on Foxnews and pretty soon your mind gets corrupted into going against your own constitution.
That last guy on Foxnews is moronic. Foxnews viewers are THE most homophobic.
teyzar 1 year ago
@teyzar for an analogy to not work it needs to... not work. instead you just described what an analogy is: a comparison of different things that share a common theme. nation vs religion is not a distinction that changes the thesis of the comparison so its actually not close to being not close since its right on point. you'd be right if i said something like "religions are just like governments in this way...".
sounds like you've been listening to too many moronic/crazy analogies :/
internetthemepark 1 year ago 3
@internetthemepark By making comparisons to entire nations that were at war with the US, you're pretty much saying the 9/11 attacks were carried out by all muslims and the war is against all muslims. A better analogy would be regarding the one i heard where it was asked whether you would want to prevent Catholic churches from opening near children's playgrounds or even schools.
teyzar 1 year ago
@richardland it would only be offensive if the arians were meeting to try and form a superior race. what if they were meeting and inviting other people to try and say "hey, we know nazis think we're awesome and stuff but we're just people". it's a mosque, it's not an al qaeda meeting place. you can't ban muslims from private property just because it's like SEVEN blocks away from ground zero and the plane hijackers were of some form of muslim religion. that's ridiculous.
DeceivingSecrets 1 year ago
A MOSQUE? BY GROUND ZERO?
That's almost like churches being built in Indian Reservations.
Samefag is same.
Captainoldspice 1 year ago
@Captainoldspice Or not, because the transgressions on Native Americans took place centuries ago. Today, they rape our wallets with casinos all over the place, so I doubt they would mind accommodating a church, for a similar reason Americans didn't mind a Japanese cultural center constructed near Pearl Harbor, 45 years & decades of amiable diplomatic relations after the fact.
As far as I know, we have yet to embrace Osama bin Laden, Al Qaeda, or fundamentalist Muslims in such a manner.
Adeon55 1 year ago 2
Your position that the mosque/centre has failed in its task of building bridges is based on a knee jerk emotional reaction. What makes you think that this emotion, which has been irrationally placed on the people building the centre/mosque as it has nothing to do with 9/11, won't eventually dissipate?
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle "just because 70% of the population finds this insulting doesnt mean its insulting to 70% of the population because some day they may change their minds" is what you just said and its retarded. if you want to build bridges then you wait until the emotion is gone down and THEN build. THEN maybe it will be a bridge builder. like maybe today a Japanese center at Pearl Harbor would be accepted. 50 years ago however...notsomuch. if you want to unite then dont be divisive. DUH.
internetthemepark 1 year ago 6
@internetthemepark the thing is...I am pissed at people telling me my faith centers offend people! I am pissed at people telling me to go tell your brothers to stop killing people! Americans are my brothers! Who do you think my brothers are!?! I was born in Brooklyn! So my religion offends people now...because of some random ppl on the other side of the earth did some stupid shit. Japan actually attacked America! Muslims didnt attack US, it was a group of crazy fantatics.
djwestbrook36 5 months ago
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@internetthemepark the thing is...I am pissed at people telling me my faith centers offend people! I am pissed at people telling me to go tell your brothers to stop killing people! Americans are my brothers! Who do you think my brothers are!?! I was born in Brooklyn! So my religion offends people now...because of some random ppl on the other side of the earth did some stupid shit. Japan actually attacked America! Muslims didnt attack US, it was a group of crazy fantatics.
djwestbrook36 5 months ago
A comment of mine you have ignored altogether -
And that is the problem with making this about the emotion of those involved. You have to show that their emotion is validated, and if it is not, the onus is not on the Muslims to do anything, but the real onus is on the opposition to realize their applying emotions to people they do not apply to. Hopefully when the centre is completed their emotion will begin to lift and they'll see the issue rationally, then the bridges can be built.
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle responded to that one too, liar.
there has to be limits to this...
i'll give you 1 more lies (defined as something you know not to be true) and 2 more fallacies before you're done polluting my page with idiocy and incoherent ranting. you can have unlimited legitimate disagreement and debate and saucy language bolstered by factual analysis but no more lying and no more illogic stated as fact.
richardland 1 year ago
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@richardland Ignored in the sense that you didn't counter it - you simply quoted a CNN poll, as if an appeal to popularity would work in your favor. You also simply restated the issue is about the deaths of 9/11, which has already been explained to you, this mosque/centre has no tie to the deaths of 9/11. The emotional opposition to the mosque is not rational.
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
Off the top of my head, points of mine that you have failed to counter -
Explaining why the Omagh analogy is poor, when it is an analogy you initially brought up yourself.
Giving just one rational reason not tied to the emotion of 9/11 to be opposed to the mosque/centre.
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle answered and answered. liar.
use a text search before you make inaccurate claims. repeatedly.
stop lying on my comments. you are abusing my tolerance.
internetthemepark 1 year ago
@internetthemepark Hmm, you said the Omagh analogy was poor, you didn't explain why. You have yet to provide a single rational reason not tied to the emotion of 9/11 to be opposed to the mosque/centre.
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
Still waiting for you to answer several of my points, Richard. Try to keep up with the debate.
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle nice try, liar. except terrible try. you've been answered in surgeon like precise detail. come back when you're ready to pay attention and actually have a 2 way discussion instead of a whiny speech that just illustrates the depravity of your position.
internetthemepark 1 year ago
@internetthemepark Simply calling me a 'liar', is in no way a rebuttal to any of my arguments. Are you intellectually honest enough to realize that many of your comments here have simply been deflections rather than rebuttals?
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
I'm such a huge Redeye fan. Kudos.
PrettyHarold 1 year ago
@PrettyHarold heh. ya, its not a bad show.
internetthemepark 1 year ago
your hair is fucking awesome. FUCKING. AWESOME.
CheckTheLore 1 year ago 4
@CheckTheLore word.
internetthemepark 1 year ago
*they're not their
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
And that is the problem with making this about the emotion of those involved. You have to show that their emotion is validated, and if it is not, the onus is not on the Muslims to do anything, but the real onus is on the opposition to realize their applying emotions to people they do not apply to. Hopefully when the centre is completed their emotion will begin to lift and they'll see the issue rationally, then the bridges can be built.
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle for the 322nd time: there is no other issue besides decency and respect toward the dead. there is no legal or constitutional argument in this controversy. it is entirely about the wisdom, benefit and meaning of constructing a meeting center for a group near a murder site perpetrated by that group. according to a new CNN poll you are in a smaller fringe wacko minority than people who think Obama wasnt born in the US. you have no argument. you're just embarrassing yourself.
richardland 1 year ago
@richardland Resorting to appeal to popularity, I see. If this argument is about respect for the dead, what about the Muslims who died on 9/11? The group building the mosque/centre have nothing to do with 9/11, so your statement that they perpetrated 9/11 is false. Your country isn't ran by polls, or mob rule. At one time the majority thought it was fine and dandy that black people couldn't vote. It's not about popularity but about what is right and rational.
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle wrong again. so far you have not accurately labeled a single instance of a logical fallacy. you hear the word emotion and you apply a fallacy to it, you hear your stupid words labeled as such and you call it ad hominem - and now you hear popularity and you label it a fallacy. wrong, wrong, wrong. triple fail. google these things before you claim to define them. stop humiliating yourself by just tossing out random wrongness so carelessly.
richardland 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle Your libel of me is getting to grotesque levels. you're done lying on my video, thanks. i never said anything 10% as outrageous as "the group building the mosque perpetrated 9/11". that's an insane lie. less outrageous and more comical is your shallow thinking about polls and popularity. you dont pay attention to anything i say - you just take the words i say and restructure them into straw man arguments you can more easily dismiss. pathetic.
richardland 1 year ago
@richardland What was the point of bringing up the poll, if not to say that my position is unpopular? Did you not use the poll, and then say that I was part of the fringe? You were indeed using the appeal to popularity fallacy.
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle It's not about popularity but about what is right and rational. that's my position. don't try to pretend it's your counter to my position. if we agree then fine, but dont lie. dont you see that it only further suggests your point has no validity whatsoever when you must resort to distortion in literally every reply?
richardland 1 year ago
@richardland If we're agreed the issue is about what is rational, then maybe you will finally answer the question I've put to you a few dozen times about the rationality of the opposition.
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle answered it a few dozen times, liar.
stop lying. k thanks.
richardland 1 year ago
@richardland Hey wait, what? You're now saying that the issue is about what is rational?? Didn't you earlier say it was about emotion? Yep, that's right, you did. Control and F and read your own comments if you don't believe me. When I said you were using appeal to emotion, you said you weren't using that fallacy because the very issue is about emotion. But now its about what is rational?
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle Hey wait, pay the fuck attention. moron. not "now". always. "yet, thats right, you did". wrong. Control and F and read my comments if you don't believe me. stupid. the issue concerns the emotions of those concerned with the 9/11 attacks. if no one cares, then theres no rational reason to build a roller coaster on the "grave" site. You are terrible at this. either ask questions about clear things you dont understand or go away. stop falsely charging inaccuracy due to your stupidity.
richardland 1 year ago
@richardland So much anger, Richard. It lets me know I'm hitting a nerve with you and that you're completely losing your grasp of this debate. You get several details wrong in your rhetoric here. For one thing, the mosque/centre isn't on the grave site. Basic facts wrong yet again. You say ask a clear question, and I will. Clear this up for me - is this issue about emotion or rationality? It can't be both, and I've shown the emotion of the opposition is irrational.
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle you're so desperate to look like you're making a coherent point that you keep resorting to claims of victory like this. you whine about being told when you fail, say you're done arguing but note that i shouldnt take that as a sign that you've run out of steam (ya, okay, sure) and now this "oooh, im getting to you" bullshit. terrible try. i'll keep calling your stupidity stupid and if you need to imagine me enraged to feel like you're gaining an upper hand then go for it.
internetthemepark 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle for the dozenth time: your claim is bullshit. you're saying that someone needs to rationally validate their emotion over their dead mother in order for someone insulting their mother to be an insult. if you cant argue why your fact-free premise is valid then move on. quit harping on your wrongness by projecting it onto others.
richardland 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle groups responsible for a mass murder planting their roots at the site of the murder is offensive. offense is an emotion. the emotion is logically connected to the action. TRY to pay attention. its not a hard line of linear logic to follow.
richardland 1 year ago
@richardland Your basic facts are wrong yet again. The group building the mosque/centre is not the same group who perpetrated 9/11.
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle oh crap, i thought a mosque was a muslim prayer center and that 9/11 was perpetrated by muslims! what an embarrassing mistake for me to ma---oh wait... you're an idiot. okay, never mind then. everythings cool.
internetthemepark 1 year ago
@internetthemepark FINALLY you reveal your islamophobia. You don't even care that they're a different religious sect, or that they're outspoken against terrorism. They're Muslim. The terrorists were Muslim. Doesn't matter that they were a handful, no Muslims get to practice their freedom of religion from now on. Does this mean that you're paranoid that all Catholics are child molestors? I doubt you're that consistent.
kainedamo 1 year ago
@kainedamo FINALLY you keep lying. I specifically said the group is NOT responsible for 9/11. you get blocked for libeling me several times after being corrected (which is an abuse of my tolerance since i shouldnt be putting up with such groundless hateful accusations even once). sects and denunciations are red herrings.
I never said anything about being anti-religious freedom for groups that kill a few thousand people here and there and never said i was paranoid about all of any group. liar.
internetthemepark 1 year ago
In your info bar ' is there a reason that Muslims should not follow the same expectations of decency and sensitivity that literally any other group would?'
Why do you hold this expectation of decency and sensitivity of Muslims at a higher standard than those opposed to the centre/mosque, when those opposed have displayed insensitivity to the Muslims who died on 9/11? I assume you've seen photos of the planned site. You can't see ground zero. No rational opposition exists.
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle Am I being punk'd or are you really this stupid? You just accurately reproduced my question of why Muslims should not follow the same expectations of decency of any other group and followed it by an interpretation that says the exact opposite. the exact, friggin, opposite. i said "Muslims should be treated like everyone else" you say that that means "Muslims should be held at a higher standard". you fail at english. and at life.
richardland 1 year ago 2
@richardland Quite fond of the word fail, aren't you? Are you going to say 'pwned' next? Do grow up, Richard. I have come to the conclusion that you want to hold the Muslims to a higher standard than their opposition, because your argument is based on the deaths of 9/11 and the emotion surrounding it, but the opposition is being insensitive to the fact Muslims also died on 9/11 - but I don't see you holding them to the same standard as you expect of the Muslims.
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle Quite fond of failing, aren't you? Not so fond of having it pointed out. Do grow up, Dee. if you cant take the heat of having your failures pointed out to you, take a more measured approach to your disagreement. try to pay attention, dont ignore corrections, dont say random shit and try to pass it off as a logical argument, etc and you wont have to cry over having your glittering ignorance put on parade.
richardland 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle you have come to the conclusion that i want to hold muslims to a higher standard instead of the explicitly stated SAME standard (repeated over and over in comment replies) because you're sick. mentally sick. you don't communicate clearly and you don't think clearly yet you feel strongly in areas you're unable to think strongly in. this causes you to lie and i wont have it. thats your last lie credit.
richardland 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle
you have already been corrected twice that the fact that muslims also died on 9/11 is a complete red herring that makes no sense. aryans died in holocaust. that doesnt make an aryan tribute near a death camp appropriate. you failed to restate and explain yourself and instead just parrot the same debunked fallacy. that leaves you with 1 fallacy left.
richardland 1 year ago
@richardland The Ayran analogy doesn't work as I have explained in detail before. The Omagh analogy which is more apt, Catholics died in an attack perpetrated by Catholics. What's this about an 'ayran tribute', you don't think the mosque/centre is a tribute to the deaths of 9/11, do you? It would certainly explain why you're so emotionally hostile!
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
It's boring arguing with someone so needlessly hostile, who won't answer any of my valid questions, so I think we should end the discussion. Don't take it that I can't continue, because I have a few rebuttals in mind for your recent comments, pointing out the hypocrisy and your flawed reasoning, but if I did, this conversatioin would just go on and on, all the while you avoid my simple and valid requests I have put forwrd to you time again. And the mosque/centre is not related to the deaths.
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle It's boring arguing with someone so needlessly dumb. I'm not hostile towards you. just time wasting comments. dont deliver passionately held option that is backed up by literally nothing, be intellectually honest about recent and nonrecent history and show the people you reply to the respect of actually paying attention to what you're replying to instead of making shit up and then you'll have a credible case to expect a more tame discourse. otherwise you're just a hypocrite.
richardland 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle the "i COULD do this if i really wanted to... so dont think i cant... but im not gonna" is a playground excuse that even the kids on the playground never believe. you are even ungraceful in defeat. you've replied over a dozen times with inaccurate and silly comments, got your ass handed to you and now you want to go home and not play anymore. i get it. just dont try to weasel out of the humiliating truth. accept, learn from, move on.
richardland 1 year ago
@richardland "You don't want to continue the conversation, therefore I win".
Seriously? You don't see your own hypocrisy here in labeling my stated desire to end the conversation as childish, and then stating that you have defeated me? Childish and hypocritical.
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
4) Throughout all of this you refer to my comments as dumb, poor, and various other ad hominems, without actually explaining why. You bring up terms from logical fallacies and don't explain how they apply. You haven't answered my valid questions, nor countered many of my valid arguments.
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle 4) wrong. adjectives are not ad hominems. stupid.
see what i did there? i corrected you and then used an accurate adjective. that is not an ad hominem attack. ad hominem fallacies are circular arguments that say "you are wrong because you are [negative adjective]". i have not done that. i have said "you are wrong because of these facts and logical deconstructions. also - you're an idiot". that is not ad hominem. it is colorful yet accurate language. quit lying.
richardland 1 year ago
@richardland Ah, fuck it - lets go. Its fun allowing you to expose how full of shit you are. Your claim that you have argued from the position of "you are wrong because of these facts and logical deconstructions" is fictional. Take for example my Omagh bomb example (something you originally brought up as an analogy yourself but curiously when I bring it up it magically became a "poor" analogy). You refered to the analogy as poor without explaining why, while your ayran analogy...
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
@richardland ... while your ayran analogy, something entirely fictional, something that isn't relevant for reasons I have previously pointed out, is something you still stand by? Hilarious hypocrisy!
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
*3) is supposed to be 2) in the previous comment.
3) The other argument you bring up in your video is a false analogy and I explained why its a false analogy in your comments page, something you've falsely accused me of not answering. Not only that, but I've provided a much more apt analogy - something you even specificly brought up - the worst bomb in Northern Ireland's history - but when I brought up the real event, you said this was a poor analogy, without even explaining why.
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle 3) go back and read the comment. it is explained. out of diligence i went back and reread your comment on my aryan analogy and - whadda ya know - you're misrepresenting the record AGAIN. you mention it but do not counter it as i did with yours. stop trying to rewrite recent history as well as macro history. you fail at it.
richardland 1 year ago
@richardland Do you not know how to use the control plus f function? I must assume you did not go back and read my counters to your fictional ayran example. Hey, when did you counter my Omagh bomb example, which is not fictional? Oh thats right, you didn't. You just said it was poor, but you didn't explain the why. Again you project your flaws onto me.
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
3) You've stated that the issue is over emotion, something that was not made clear in your video at all. I've countered that if the issue is over emotion then the opposition is being insensitive to the emotions of the Muslims because Muslims died on 9/11 too, and I sent a video to you to further emphasis that point. You have not countered this position.
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle 2) do not blame the clarity of the video, which is crystal, for your own willful blindness and filtered hearing. the video repeats a theme of appropriateness, using an analogous example of a death site and a nearby building related to the murders of the death site. what, if not sensitivity to the concerns of those who hold the murder site sacred did you take that to mean? your counter makes no sense. aryans died in holocaust too so an aryan center near a death camp would be ok? wtf.
richardland 1 year ago
@richardland When you say nearby building related to the murders of the site, I sure hope you're not referring to the planned community centre/mosque, for there is no connection between it and the deaths of 9/11. I sure hope that's not what you mean, because then you'd be exposing your own emotional bias.
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
Your private message to me once again is a projection of your own debating flaws onto me. Here is a point for point run down summary of our debate as I see it - 1) The main argument of your video is that the Mosque should move because they're not building the bridges they want to with the opposition. I counter that the opposition's position is not rational but based on the emotion of 9/11, you fail on multiple occasions to provide a rational argument not based on the emotion of 9/11.
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle 1) you illustrate the fallacy in your argument in the sentence immediately following it, therefore you are not asking me to rebut a legitimate argument, but rather correct your fallacious tautology. i have done so. i will do it once more: building bridges through an emotionally sensitive subject cannot be done by ignoring the emotions of the side you claim to want to bridge.
richardland 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle 1B) your demand that i rationalize the mourning of the 9/11 murdered is illegitimate and irrelevant to the argument. i am not religious and i dont believe in spiritual symbolism so i dont think any ghosts of the dead are going to cry any ghost tears over any earthly buildings. life is for the living and if the living are offended by a construction then it will not build bridges. you admit that the intention is to heal WHILE admitting it is not healing. you have defeated yourself.
richardland 1 year ago
@richardland One more comment if I may - your position that the community centre has failed to build bridges when it has not even finished completion, and when there are many in the local area who support it, is founded on the knee jerk emotional reaction of the opposition - is there any reason to believe that given time, when they see the community centre/mosque isn't being used to train terrorists, that if its actually a good addition to the community, their emotion will begin to lift?
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
Imam Rauf and his wife sought out the advice of the 92nd Street Y (a Jewish organization) about modeling the community center after them. They also sought and obtained the advice and support of the Mayor's office, the community board, zoning and a number of other community organizations. That's why they received unanimous approval from the community board, zoning and landmarks. They had no idea there would be an opposition, including people who just want to politicize the issue.
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle this is the dumbest response ever. "the people who needed zoning permits to build on a location consulted authorities responsible for such permits" is not in question. quit tossing out red herrings and making straw men arguments and just focus like a laserbeam or shut up. if you cant follow coherent direct responses then dont respond. "they had no idea there would be an opposition" is a groundless statement. you're just making things up. stop that.
richardland 1 year ago
Throughout our little debate your hostility towards me has been tinged in all of your posts, while you falsely accuse me of not answering the ayran question (which I answered twice), use ad hominem, playing games of deflection without answering my valid questions, and state my positions are poor without actually explaining why. Any neutral reader following the conversation can see who is being logical, and who is simply using words from a logical fallacy website to make themselves sound smart.
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle so you're admitting that you looked up a logical fallacy website to try to sound smart. fine. good. you didnt answer my aryan question twice however, so dont lie to make yourself look better. the record is right here on the page. mentioning the premise is not answering the challenge.
richardland 1 year ago
@richardland I'll make it very simple for you. Click 'view all comments'. Use control and F, look for the word 'imaginary', that's one of my responses to your ayran suggestion. Follow the same process again and search for the word 'obvious', and you will see my second comment dealing with your ayran suggestion.
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
I must emphasis that the main point of your argument relies on the false premise that those opposed to the mosque have a legitimate argument.
I have been waiting for anyone to show me why they should not be permitted to build their mosque/community center. As of yet, no one has been arrested, charged or shown to be anything other than within their rights as guaranteed under US Constitution.
The only evidence I need to lend my support is the absence of any wrongdoing from these sufis.
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle I must emphasize that you have 3 times restated and repacked your argument, ignoring ALL corrections and counterpoints to it. you've revealed no false premise, only falsely claimed one exists. you've not argued why, despite being specifically asked, you falsely think everyone who disagrees with you on the issue are lacking in legitimacy. thus you should stop commenting if you have nothing to say. you are just parroting stock lines, not responding to counterpoints (aka: a discussion)
richardland 1 year ago
@richardland What counterpoints? I have made my case for why the opposition don't have a legitimate argument, and I've asked you several times now if you can think of a rational opposition to the mosque that is not tied into the emotion of 9/11. Your silence on that speaks volumes to me. The Muslims have no logical obligation to follow the demands of people who's argument is based solely on the emotion of an event that these mosque folk have nothing to do with....
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle start with the counterpoints ive provided in every reply so far. its a great way to begin a discussion. you however dont appear interested in talking to anyone but yourself as you have only restated over and over your baseless assertions. this comment is the first time you've provided insight to your thought process so don't lie by claiming otherwise. first time. not "several times". try to pay attention to your own comments.
richardland 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle so why are you so needlessly divisive and insensitive then? 70% of Americans are against it because it is about as offensive as putting up a "Salute to firebombs" in Tokyo. Or building the American embassy at ground zero in Hiroshima. Or a Catholic church next to the site of the worst bombing ever in Northern Ireland. why do you seek to divide, insult and offend just to strut your stated principal of "because i can"?
richardland 1 year ago
@richardland All of those things are examples of appeal to emotion.
And in regards to Northern Ireland. Omagh had the worst bomb, they used Lisanelly baracks as a temporary mortuary. 10 years on the baracks is empty, Catholics and Protestant churches put plans in place to rebuild the baracks as a mixed religious school area.
So according to your logic, Northern Ireland is more tolerant than USA.
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle you're using a fallacy while attempting to call out a fallacy. i have not used any appeal to emotion fallacies. the issue is over emotion. therefore talking about the emotions involved is not a fallacy of emotional appeal, it is plain and open talk about the situation. duh.
richardland 1 year ago
@richardland Oh, now you're moving the goal posts of the debate. Cute.
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
@richardland If you want to talk about the emotions of the situation, its very easy to argue that the opposition to the mosque/centre are being very insensitive to the fact that innocent Muslims also died on 9/11. Is there a reason that the opposition should not follow the same expectations of decency and sensitivity that literally any other group would? I'll send you a YoungTurks video to further emphasis the emotional point from the POV of Muslims.
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle your branch off of my valid analogy is poor, unparalleled and non descriptive of a similar situation. you are either lying to yourself or insulting my intelligence to try to get me to think "mosque near muslim murder site" is parallel to "catholic and protestant funded venture for mixed religious school area". you fail at logic.
richardland 1 year ago
@richardland You're just saying words, you're not making any kind of point for point rationalization for how the words you're throwing around apply to my arguments. You're also projecting your own debating flaws onto me - I must have asked you 4 times now for a rational opposition to the mosque not based on the emotion of 9/11 and you have not answered. More to come...
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
@richardland ... And the reason I've asked you 4 or so times is because earlier you had resorted to ad hominem by labelling me as a bigot, because I didn't acknowledge that the opposition to the mosque have a legitimate viewpoint. Well I presented my position that they don't have a legitimate viewpoint, that their view is based on the emotion of 9/11, and is therefore irrational because these people aren't connected to 9/11. More to come...
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
@richardland ... How did you reach the conclusion that your analogy was valid, while mines is poor? Your exact words in your analogy - 'the worst bombing ever in Northern Ireland'. I presented to you exactly that - the Omagh bombing. And the fact that Catholics are involved with building a mixed religious school on the ground that actually had the dead. Google it. The Muslims are building a community centre where all are welcome, so how is it a poor analogy?
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
@richardland Continuing on with the mixed school planned for Lisanelly, its as similar a comparison to the mosque/community centre as we're likely to get. The school in Omagh will be mixed, the Muslims have stated their community centre will be open to everyone. You could say the Lisanelly baracks has more emotion tied to it seeing as dead bodies were actually kept there. The coat factory in New York had some debree hit it... that's it. Thanks for your time in reading my comments.
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle your welcome for my time in reading your comments. i just wish you respected that time more by 1) listening to responses and rebutting them from the beginning instead of grandstanding until being repeatedly challenged on the same points, 2) answering more than one challenge you were given 3) not using bizarre rhetorical tricks like calling a debate about sensitivity to emotions invalid because of "appeals to emotions". i mean really...
richardland 1 year ago
@richardland ... so if you can not or will not answer my question, I will bid you good day.
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle so you're admitting that you're not actually interested in any kind of meaningful dialogue and you really only came here to spout soapbox style rants and then run away. got it. well if you change your mind, it would be nice if you answered my repeatedly asked and repeated ignored question about an Aryan center near Auschwitz. you're down with that, right? because your stated position is that whatever is legally allowed is thereby moral?
richardland 1 year ago
@richardland I think you're playing games with me. I have 2 comments that address your ayran suggestion.
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
Comment removed
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
We're actually overstating the case of the opposition when we say a mosque is going to be built. There is no building to be built.
The community center/mosque/pool/auditorium/restaurant/bookstore is going into an already-existing building.
Muslims already currently use the building to pray in.
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
we're actually not overstating the case at all. building will take place within a building. major construction. not just redecorating an empty space in a stripmall. therefore it is a point of detail, not an overstatement. it is a red herring to talk about what muslims currently use the building for as there is no protest over the space's current use.
richardland 1 year ago
Comment removed
Gdanohrukrodmmtefce 1 year ago
i like that you are doing a video on a recent event.
but I can't tell if you're joking or not. an american right is to be able to practice any religion and worship at any place, so the people who are stupid enough to think that all muslims are terrorists should just go cry a river. it's not insensitive, it's exactly the opposite, they are trying to "build bridges", and I say all the power to them.
DeceivingSecrets 1 year ago
@DeceivingSecrets thanks. i always start to do videos on news items but then figure no one cares so i scrap it and do something random.
its legal, ya, but if its offensive to people then its not much of a healing tool. do you agree then with my holocaust analogy? would it be appropriate "bridge building" to construct a meeting center for blonde haired blue eyed people near the site of a death camp where people where murdered because they were thought to have inferior genes?
richardland 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"and if you don't agree with me you are a racist homophobe." LOL
heartx3jess 1 year ago
LOL @ "If you disagree with me, you're a racist homophobe." I read somewhere that Muslims tend to build mosques at sites of battle victories. I COULD BE 100% WRONG THOUGH. Just what I heard.
GregIsGo 1 year ago
@GregIsGo i read that too and also have yet to verify its legitimacy. funny though how the commentator who mocks the idea of disagreement equaling "you're a bigot" has presented itself in these comments and messages to me so quickly. people REALLY use that as an argument against everything these days... sad
richardland 1 year ago
awesome that is a great point.
ironcore1 1 year ago
i think it is fine if they build the mosque i dont understand why they shouldnt build it, they want one so they should build it.
firewindice17 1 year ago
@firewindice17 this kindov...ignores 100% of the video :/
one thing to disagree with part of it, but this comment just ignores the substance (or maybe you didnt watch it?). i dont get it.
internetthemepark 1 year ago
mmmyes, yes, quite intriguing. quite intriguing indeed.
MaxMoulton 1 year ago
I'm not an American or a muslim, but your points of view seem like common sense to me.
1AussieInJapan 1 year ago
You have so many great points! I totally agree.
Loved the clip at the end.
KoolJeffrey 1 year ago 3
@KoolJeffrey thanks. if the gay bar gets built, we're makin a trip and gonna go on a straightdate to it. ill even buy you a 72virgins daiquiri.
richardland 1 year ago
You can't just placate the idiots who oppose the mosque for no rational reason. If you placate them, where's it end? You can't claim that the USA is the most tolerant nation on Earth, and on the other hand say that muslims should abide by different rules than everyone else simply because there are a lot of islamophobes who oppose them.
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle so far you have offered nothing but fallacy based reasoning, false claims and hyperbolic hate directed at a legitimate point of view. You claim I state that muslims should abide by different rules when the video states that they should do the OPPOSITE. I literally said that muslims should just abide by the rules of decency that anyone else would be expected to and you ignored it so you could make up your own BS argument. you are not arguing with my words, you are making sh#t up.
richardland 1 year ago
@richardland Basically you're entire case that the mosque/centre should be moved is because there is an opposition to it, which you claim is detrimental to the goal of building bridges. My point is that the opposition is irrational and DON'T have a legitimate point of view on this. Their view is based entirely on emotion. Muslims could do nothing to placate people like that, whether it were to build the mosque a mile away or in another city. Only with time will they realize these Muslims...
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle 100% wrong again. its not a long winded video nor does it contain complex and nuanced points. you should be able to grasp them much easier than you are. my "entire case" is not as you stated. watch the video. that is one reason out of several and it is not a "claim" by me that "opposition is detrimental to the goal of building bridges". its a fact. you dont needlessly offend a populous you're trying to build a bridge to.
richardland 1 year ago
@richardland How do these Muslims build bridges to the type of people opposed to the Mosque, if they are to hide away everytime there is opposition? There is already evidence of bridge building with more rational people. A group of 9/11 families have come out in support of the mosque. The President has come out in support of the mosque. I think the mosque has a tremendous chance to build bridges. To say that they should move because of an initial knee jerk opposition is short sighted.
DeeCarlisle 1 year ago
@DeeCarlisle you have no made a point that opposition is irrational. you've made a statement that is backed up by nothing and makes no rebuttal to my points on the contrary. your view is based entirely on emotion and that is why you project that motive onto others. you have no evidence that Muslims could do nothing to placate people in opposition to this building proposal. you're living in a world of imagination and theory, not facts.
richardland 1 year ago