It pisses me off when I hear alcoholics and druggies as disease victims. Cystic Fibrosis is a disease, Parkinson's is a disease, Hodgkin Lymphoma is a disease. You don;t have to have a drink or take drugs and you can stop. Can't stop a real disease. Stuff that's self inflicted gets no sympathy from me
(Continued from previous comment) I should add that as far as I know, alcohol/benzodiazepine withdrawal is the only form of drug withdrawal that can be fatal. Not even heroin withdrawal poses this risk; you'll just feel absolutely supremely shitty in every way and you wont be able to sleep a wink... but you'll live. Management a severe alcohol addiction should always be done under a doctor's supervision.
The only problem I had with this is the very last comment from Penn about just quitting cold turkey. While this is the good option all of the time for most drug addictions, it can be a very bad option for those who are severely dependent on specifically alcohol or benzodiazepines (Xanax, Valium, Klonopin, Ativan, etc). The withdrawal syndrome is clinically identical for alcohol and any type of benzo, and in severe cases, quitting cold turkey can actually lead to a fatal seizure. read about it
Court mandating AA is WRONG! In our city we have made the local drug court (also a bullshit thing) stop sending their assholes to us. The God thing is "as you understand God", So no it isnt a religion. AA isnt the only way, and no AA member would ever tell you that unless they are a dipshit. Also, I dont think the recovery rate in AA is 5%, I think its lower than that. "God" as i understand him doesnt really give a fuck about anything, I wish yall would have called me,sober 6 years AA works 4me
(Comment 3 of 3 continued from below) My happiness and ability to be useful to society is worth the price of having logical inconsistencies in my beliefs, which I acknowledge. I really hope that anyone who is especially disparaging in here will get to know someone who is a good example of a 12 step program before judging them too harshly. And for what it's worth, the basic text of AA never uses the word "disease". I myself consider it a spiritual sickness, not something genetic.
“We have never called alcoholism a disease because, technically speaking, it is not a disease entity … we did not wish to get it wrong with the medical profession by pronouncing alcoholism a disease entity. Therefore we always called it an illness, or a malady – a far safer term to use.”
* William Griffith Wilson (1961) addressing National Catholic Clergy Conference on Alcoholism.
(Comment 2 of 3 continued from below) I know numerous people who could tell you the same thing and we are all happy people aiming to make the world a better place - pretty good for a group of people who used to be hopeless drunks, even sometimes ex-criminals. Applying the 12 steps in our lives made us better people and as a result have allowed us to have positive impact on the world...
(Comment 1 of 3) I consider myself a very logical person and have the education to prove it. I watched this whole video without prejudice and can fully understand the arguments in it. That said, AA has changed my life for the better in every aspect and has allowed me to be a proper son, brother, friend, and all around person...
I like to imagine AAs bringing their rocks and seedlings to their group conscience meetings, placing them all on the table and saying their HP is the 'one ultimate authority' who expresses itself in the group conscience. Then watch as a battle of the rocks/seedlings ensues...
For me,I just had to admit "I can't drink anymore" not even one!!! The biggest trick addicts play on themselves is thinking they can keep it under control. IT HAS TO BE ALL OR NOTHING.I choose nothing.
@NixonisLord sigmond freud was a big believer in cocaine, till he discovered it was addictive----then he switiched to smoking cigars, lots of cigars, till he even got jaw cancer....and he was one who started all the psych stuff everybody beleives now days.
@Deep7322 numbers gotten from where? T.T" And as they said, works only 5% of the time, save yourself the time work on it on your own, you still got 5% to recover.
AA was the pioneer of a recovery movement and model that is now being adopted in the field of mental health. It's good the the original premise of one person with a condition is best equipped to help another person with a similar condition.
SLAA, OA, & AAA (ALL ADDICTIONS ANONYMOUS) Is a joke! The one thing that degraded any recovery was forced abstinence, which just doesn't work. U can't force an addiction to go, you just have to accept yourself and your compulsions.
AA is bullshit and unfortunately can be very detrimental. For years I believed the AA bullshit. It's a program of guilt, fear, and twisted religion. If anyone has a drinking problem I encourage them to seek alternatives such as Rational Recovery, Secular Organization for Recovery and SMART Recovery. AA hurts people; AA kills people.
Don't feed the trolls. Hammersley1967 trolls the anti-AA sites, trying to convince people that AA isn't a religious cult. Read his comments here, and on other comments pages, and you'll see that he's a religious fanatic and a nut job. He's a good example of why AA should be avoided. I was in the AA cult for a year, and it's full of religiotards like Hammersley1967.
@Hammersley1967 Hi Mr. Hammersley. I cast out demons in my spare time over the Internet so if you get more work casting them out than you can keep up with, please let me know. Also, I accept PayPal. Thank you.
At the End of Days, you and I will be seated at the right hand of the Lord in paradise. We will look on with glee as THE SALIVATING SOCIOPATHS ON THIS THREAD HAVE THEIR SINFUL SKINS TORN FROM THEIR BLASPHEMOUS BODIES AND HAVE THEIR TREACHEROUS TONGUES TORN OUT AND THROWN TO THE VORACIOUS HOUNDS OF HELL!!!!
Almost all of this is factually true except one point. Around 4 minutes in a man says you "have to stand up and say" your name and that you're an alcoholic. You don't. And if you don't, from what I've seen, no one comments on your decision to not say it. Also, speakers are treated with no less respect or compassion when they didn't say it than when thye did.
@leerman22 NO u treat it with faith an prayer to GOD!!!So all you religiuos ppl put down those vaccines bandages and drugs arent needed, faith is all u need to heal,since more u believe an the more devout you are =healthier.Cancer kills?BULLSHITit makes u get closer to god.Thus u shouldnt treat it as a religiuos person.If some1 is handicapped they deserved it for doing something bad in a previuos life so its gd to enjoy humiliating them its gods choice!(jks btw religon is a disease on humanity)
Popular media would have us believe that EVERYBODY who uses a drug recreationally to improve their mood is an addict and can only be fixed thru a program like this. That's because you only see the ones who have had ridiculous, suicidal addictions like 3 pounds of coke per day or a truckload of meth. Many people take recreational drugs of all kinds throughout their lives and not only survive, but live healthy, productive lives. We just never hear about them.
@jerico641 Jerko641's two favorite pastimes are drugs and hate. Had you been a few years younger, there is no question that you would have been a disciple of Charles Manson living at the Spahn Ranch.
Okay....well, I dare because I've known a few in my lifetime. They never OD'd or went on "Intervention" because they didn't destroy themselves through addiction. Sorry if it pisses you off, but it's true.
At the End of Days, when I am seated at the right hand of the Lord, I will look on with glee as YOU AND THE REST OF THE SALIVATING SOCIOPATHS ON THIS THREAD HAVE THEIR SINFUL SKINS TORN FROM THEIR BLASPHEMOUS BODIES AND HAVE THEIR TREACHEROUS TONGUES TORN OUT AND THROWN TO THE VORACIOUS HOUNDS OF HELL!!!!
@Hammersley1967 mmmmm sorry i dont think that happens in heaven and if you hope it does you probably arent going to heaven you sadist but then again heaven and hell arent real so all you are is a pathetic sadist fear-mongering nutjob ranting on youtube
The thing I worry about with the courts is that instead of offering 12 step meetings or prison, they might say, OK prisons for everyone instead of giving defendants a choice between different treatments or prisons.
When I'd had enough of AA (to me it was more a prayer group than a support group), I found it hard to break the habit of going to AA meetings. If you're in that position, I suggest that you Google this: YouTube Deprogramming Oneself From Alcoholics Anonymous. It's just one of many videos on the subject that helped me break my meeting habit. I'm currently at 925 consecutive days sober, and far happier than I was during my year in AA.
While AA members are busy "working the steps" to supposedly fix their wrongdoings, ppl outside of AA are doing that on a minute to minute basis. Working the steps can sometimes take the aa member years and even then their so called amends are often never made under the loopholes provided (when it harms self or others). But I guess that is the way it goes in a masonic created cult. Fake it until you make it.
Either the 'disease' is spiritual, caused by a distance from God. Or it is physical/mental, the function of a biological defect. Which is it?
And is the concept of a physical allergy coupled with a mental obsession supposed to be different to addiction? Or is it the same thing, meaning the disease is addiction? Does that mean that 'addiction' to cluttering, gang membership, vulgarity, indebtedness emotions and pickles are diseases too?
"Does that mean that 'addiction' to cluttering, gang membership, vulgarity, indebtedness emotions and pickles are diseases too?"
Give the American Psychiatric Association time and they will eventually pathologise every single mode of deviant human behaviourv - including the ones that you cited...
@Hammersley1967 'My name is Katoe9871 and i am a grateful recovering pickler, abstinent for 20 years, relieved from the bondage of gherkins by the grace of a rock greater than myself. By some miracle, i now prefer sweet foods to savoury items, and avoid all forms of antipasto lest they trigger the physical allergy which defines my disease. That would put me in a real picke!'
@katoe9871 Either the 'disease' is spiritual, caused by a distance from God. Or it is physical/mental, the function of a biological defect. Which is it? Who says it has to be either one or the other? What kind of reason is that? What really matters is what the sufferer experiences. Ask any real alcoholic. Most all will agree they cannot control the amount they take once they start and can't quit for any meaningful interval when they honestly want to. Thats what matters, that's alcoholism.
@katoe9871 And is the concept of a physical allergy coupled with a mental obsession supposed to be different to addiction? Or is it the same thing, meaning the disease is addiction?
What is going to help you is that these things are not one or the other, black and what, yes or no. What matters, again, is what the sufferer experiences and ultimately what gives relief to the sufferer. All else is just talk. When something works you do it. For me and millions, that is AA, -- worked for 18 years
"...most members of Alcoholics Anonymous do speak of their alcoholism in terms of disease: the vocabulary of disease was from the beginning and still remains for most of them the best available for understanding and explaining their own experience. But the use of that vocabulary no more implies deep commitment to the tenet that alcoholism is a disease in some ... medical sense than speaking of sunrise or sunset implies disbelief in a Copernican solar system"
Take control of your life, thats the P&T solution? Just don't do it? Just make a decision and stick to it? Thousands of real alcoholics honestly want to stop or moderate but can't . Real alcoholics cannot moderate as they can't stop drinking once they start. When honestly wanting to stop real alcoholics find that even through really wanting to their minds trick them back to it. The alcoholic mind lacks rational thinking about booze and returns to drink even though honestly not wanting to.
Hammer, "drinking behavior is a function of the alcoholic's perception of the costs and benefits of alcohol."
OK, thats true for any addiction.
NO, there is no such thing as psycho-emotional. Or psycho-analytical (psychodynamic), psycho-behavior, psycho-cocnitive, psycho-didactical...psycho-functional etc etc.
Dont say psycho-emotional but psycho (emmotional) WTF.
@andreasheinz No thanks andrea, I don't want to go to hell. I've been there already as a result of my drinking. What I have now is more like a heaven on earth. I was aethiest before AA. Now with a God in my life I have more money that I need, a job, shot at early retirement, friends, -- true happiness and a shot at more. Before, running the show myself didn't work. With a HP in my life things are great. I help many people who really need help to find a way out from alcoholism and for free!
@Hammersley1967 This implies it's about "reinforcing the decision". Real alcoholics lack the ability to decide whether to drink or not. They may honestly want to quit and stay sober for a time but most all go back to it even after countless counseling sessions with the best psychiatrists. Why is this? Because they have alcoholism and part of what the disease IS is the inability to choose. Sir, sorry you are wrong and at worst trying to sell another fly by night therapy.
@Hammersley1967 A timeout procedure? I just looked up the Cohen et al ec.. It suppressed their use when they were "punished" through 10-15 minutes of isolation. But drinking continued when they quit being punished? Yea if I was locked up everytime I took a drink I'd probably force myself to moderate. Permanent abstinence through this so called treatment? Are you serious? How successful was this? It's the first I've heard of it and I've been going to AA meetings full of alcoholics for 20 years.
"Yea if I was locked up everytime I took a drink I'd probably force myself to moderate."
Hang on... Didn't you say that alcoholism was a disease (physical allergy) in which the alcoholic CANNOT, under any circumstances, control the amount they drink?
Is the alcoholic "powerless" over alcohol or not? You can't have it both ways...
A disease that is mediated by social and consequential circumstance?
@Hammersley1967 "you can't have it both ways?" Orange? Dude? hello? Sir the real questions I've asked have not been answered. Yes the real alcoholic is powerless over alcohol, many have varying degrees of power for small TIMES to moderate or abstain, I stayed sober and moderated many times but only for short intervals. Notice the study summary also says when this "circumstance of consequence" was removed they went straight back to heavy consumption. it is NO solution to give permanent abstinence
@Hammersley Where did I say in my comment that the experiment was treatment. I understand what it is. I am admitting that what they found is true. But it's findings do not add to understanding the problem anymore than AA already understands the problem. Many alcoholics abstain for short intervals. I did it countless times. We are after lasting abstinence are we not. That is what alcoholics cannot achieve through simple firm decision. I tried countless times to no avail.
@Hammersley1967 Sure under these circumstances I would moderate or abstain. For this short period when being punished directly after taking a drink I think I could. It would be extremely difficult and I have abstained for short periods of time on my own decision. But to continue to abstain for a prolonged extended period (the 18 years I have abstained now) NO WAY! I'm not having it both ways. Many alcoholics can abstain or moderate for short periods. But in prolonged sobriety they always fail.
"Permanent abstinence through this so called treatment? Are you serious? How successful was this?"
Once again you are confused as to what "research" is and what "treatment" is.
This was a CLINICAL EXPERIMENT not a TREATMENT METHOD.
How successful was it? Well, in terms of the answering the central research's question: "is alcoholism a condition that overwhelms rational choice" it was superbly successful.
@Hammersley1967 So what's your point then? I think all this research found out is that if an alcoholic is directly punished as soon as he takes a drink that he will moderate. How does this apply to real world circumstance. If alcoholism isn't a condition that overwhelms rational choice then why is it when alcohol punishes alcoholics over and over again they continue to use it? What is the point here? You've lost me.
"I think all this research found out is that if an alcoholic is directly punished as soon as he takes a drink that he will moderate."
A drunk will moderate consumption if influenced with monetary inducements, repetitive (boring) tasks, or if told that the alcohol they are drinking is a soft drink.
All this evidence proves that the alcoholic can and does exercise CHOICE in regards to his/her drinking behaviour. Their choice to drink is a function of their perception of alcohol.
@Hammersley1967 Let me correct myself as I didn't' fully explain. I think all this research found out is that if an alcoholic is directly isolated right after taking a drink that they will moderate for a short period of time. But notice that when the direct consequence is removed they go right back to heavy consumption. This research you are basing your whole rational on is flawed. The more obvious evidence is in the testimony of alcoholics who have tried and tried to quit for good but can't.
"I think all this research found out is that if an alcoholic is directly isolated right after taking a drink that they will moderate for a short period of time"
The Mello & Mendleson studies were during alcoholic's stays in hospital. Some of these stays were up to two months. What the studies show is that there is no biochemical or physio-pathological reaction that overwhelms rational choice.
Alcoholism = preference for the drunken state to the sober state of consciousness.
@Hammersley1967 Wow, most would agree that this research that's noted here is by no means a juggernaut of clinical research. So after this juggernaut of clinical research were is the proven successful therapy? So what is it? All doctors need to do is just tell there alcoholic patients. If it hurts when you drink, just don't drink then? Or all you need to do is build yourself an isolation chamber, when you get the urge or start to drink duck into it. Come on!!
"this research that's noted here is by no means a juggernaut of clinical research"
Is 9 references not enough for you? These are the pilot studies. They have been repeated several times over the past 40 years and show the same results.
"So after this juggernaut of clinical research were is the proven successful therapy?"
CBT, aversion therapy, social capital intervention, therapeutic community.
You seem to be confused as to the distinction between research and treatment.
@donlapcam Dude tone it down a bit. When representing AA we need to be civil about it. This kind of talk is what drives people away. Please man, be helpful not hurtful. There are better ways to say it. Have a look at what I wrote to sinisterkitty.
AA works - it had worked perfectly - don't change the program get your self to a real
Step study and your life will be re created !!!
That fat guy is a joke - look at him he looks like a scalper in the red light district. He's a loser if he really new the program he would not be saying that shit on YouTube run from
People like that guy at meetings they don't do the work- egotistical psychopaths
Fallacy 1: You have to have God to be in AA. Good Orderly Direction is used by atheists in AA. Fallacy 2: 100% abstinence or failure; Alcholics who drank daily but stop for months with a relapse are not failures. They would have been institutionalized before 1939. Fallacy 3: BS he does not support the 5% independent study. (Non AA) # came right out of his ass. Of the 95% who relapsed. What was the rate of usage? Sadly as usual the slant is wrong. This show could have been so much better.
@arrdvarks1 I believe this Good Orderly Direction idea is never mentioned anywhere in the literature. The Big Book says God can be found within and many start with the group as a higher power but graduate up once really doing the steps. AA is all about spirituality and real atheists I don't believe can complete the steps. Some may be just hard drinkers that like AA for the social aspect. The Good Orderly Direction is not an AA idea I believe. Maybe a way to start believing but not for long
"AA is all about spirituality and real atheists I don't believe can complete the steps. Some may be just hard drinkers that like AA for the social aspect"
So your "diagnosis" of a REAL alcoholic is someone who get's sober through "belief in god" and "working the steps"?
Anyone who gets sober by any other means is, a priori, deemed to be "not a REAL alcoholic"?
Thus, the AA method is the defining criteria of REAL alcoholism?
Are you aware of the circular nature of that logic?
@Hammersley1967 No, becoming recovered is not the criteria of who is and who is not an alcoholic, of course not. The AA book describes alcoholism as a two fold disease. 1)Allergy of the body 2)obsession of the mind. 1)real alcoholics cannot control the amount they take once they start drinking. 2) Even when honestly wanting to, real alcoholics cannot quit entirely, some may stay sober on willpower for a time, but always go back to it even when honestly wanting to stop. that's AA's alcoholism
"The AA book describes alcoholism as a two fold disease. 1)Allergy of the body 2)obsession of the mind."
The second criteria (obsession of the mind) I can accept. The first criteria (allergy of the body) I cannot. It has been 228 years since the disease theory of alcoholism was incepted by Dr Benjamin Rush.
After 228 years of intense medical investigation, there is not a shred of scientific evidence to support the notion that alcoholism is a disease (or physical allergy).
@Hammersley1967 Not a shred of scientific evidence? what about the testimony of countless alcoholics that experience an overwhelming desire to consume more alcohol once after they have a couple of drinks? Is not the experience of countless alcoholics enough? If every time they drink the get into some kind of undesired trouble why don't they just moderate or stop? Sir, it's simple, because even when repeatedly punished by alcohol they go back to it. Why? They have become alcoholic. No shred?
"Not a shred of scientific evidence? what about the testimony of countless alcoholics that experience an overwhelming desire to consume more alcohol once after they have a couple of drinks? Is not the experience of countless alcoholics enough?"
No, anecdotal self report is not "enough". It is full of value-laden, subjective, qualitative, cultural and psychosocial import.
Empirical scientific evidence controls the sample group and only relies on objective sensory verification.
@Hammersley1967 So it's not enough? Who says? Hammersley? Where is this empirical scientific evidence the flys in the face of what real alcoholics experience on a daily basis? It doesn't take a scientist to see that normal drinkers can have a few and leave it alone, but alcoholics can't seem to stop once they get started. Please enlighten us Sir. Where is all this empirical scientific evidence? this old, (72') short lived experiment of isolation suppressing drinking for brief periods? Please
"So it's not enough? Who says? Hammersley? Where is this empirical scientific evidence the flys in the face of what real alcoholics experience on a daily basis?"
Mendelson et al 1964; Mello & Mendelson 1972; Cohen et al 1971a, 1971b; Gottheil et al 1972; Heather & Robertson 1981; Bigelow & Liebson 1972; Pattison, Sobell & Sobell 1977; Marlatt, Deming & Reid 1973.
They do not debunk the "desire" for alcohol. They debunk the idea of "loss of control" and physiological "disease".
"It doesn't take a scientist to see that normal drinkers can have a few and leave it alone, but alcoholics cant seem to stop once they get started ... Where is all this empirical scientific evidence?"
Actually, give the right inducements, they can.
Evidence? For the 5th time.
Mendelson et al 1964; Mello & Mendelson 1972; Cohen et al 1971a, 1971b; Gottheil et al 1972; Heather & Robertson 1981; Bigelow & Liebson 1972; Pattison, Sobell & Sobell 1977; Marlatt, Deming & Reid 1973.
@Hammersley196 OK, great the right inducements. So there is a therapy. Given the right inducements yea thats the ticket. Oh, wait those inducements? What about real world circumstance outside of a clinic. Gee how do we on a daily basis give these inducements while an alcoholic is say at work? Or at home afterward? Out at a restaurant? Driving down the road where there are many liquor stores. Inducements in a clinic, that's kinda like say jail or being institutionalized. What a life that would be
"Oh, wait those inducements? What about real world circumstance outside of a clinic. Gee how do we on a daily basis give these inducements while an alcoholic is say at work?"
Sure, I get your point...
The alcoholic uses alcohol inresponce to the pressures, stresses and social circumstance of real life situations.
So, is alcoholism a physical "disease" that over powers all rational volition?
Nope... It's a response (albeit a dysfunctional one) to life and internal reality.
"real alcoholics cannot control the amount they take once they start drinking."
As I said, the clinical research over the past 40 years has shown this central tenet of the disease theory is absolutely false. Given the right psychosocial setting, diagnosed gamma alcoholics can and do moderate and abstain from drinking.
SEE: Bigelow & Liebson 1972; Mello and Mendelson’s 1972; Gottheil et al 1972.
The notion of "one drink, one drunk" has been conclusively debunked by science.
@Hammersley1967 Alcoholics may abstain or moderate for short intervals especially when electrocuted after each drink! : -) I quit 100's of times sometimes for weeks but would always wind up binging again and experiencing all the accompanying trouble with the law and friends, depression, pain and anguish. Most alcoholics really want to quit and try, some quiting for short intervals and sometimes years but most always go back. AA offers a complete relief and sustained prolonged abstinence.
@Hammersley1967 Here we go with your 5% stat again. You love to cling to this very flimsy reed to support your view. This stat cannot be accurate to any scientifically valuable precision. For a number of reasons. 1st) just walking into an AA meeting does not equate with trying the AA program and thousands of people walk in but are not willing to try the program. Trying the program means doing the work which many are just unwilling to do. The 12 steps are not easy directions to take.
@Hammersley If this stat is even 1/2 correct it's pretty discouraging for the fellowship. I actually see this first. BUT - The fellowship has not suffered because the program of AA is failing, it's because the fellowship lacks the knowledge it once had of the program of AA. Meetings today are quite far from the original purpose they were intended and a travesty is actually taking place where ideas from treatments centers and elsewhere are polluting meetings to the extent the program is lost.
"If this stat is even 1/2 correct it's pretty discouraging"
Let's put it into perspective. ALL treatment approaches have a similar efficacy rate of 3 - 5%. It may not so much be a reflection on AA, but rather a reflection of our social attitudes to alcohol. Let's face it, we (in the west) live in a culture of intoxication. In such a sociocultural context, there is a "pull away" effect from any abstinence based treatment. Total abstinence aint a sexy option to the average drunk.
"a travesty is actually taking place where ideas from treatments centers and elsewhere are polluting meetings to the extent the program is lost."
I agree that this is another hindrance to AA efficacy. The dumping of government mandated, non-compliant "members" into AA meetings has no doubt eroded the outcomes.
IMO, it is a clear breach of traditions 1, 3 & 11. But the elevation of the 5th tradition (as somehow more important than the others) has facilitated this "pollution".
"abstain or moderate for short intervals especially when electrocuted after each drink!"
If you'd read the research, you'd know that that is a gross exaggeration. The psychosocial adjustments were inducements of money to moderate or abstain, the requirement of a repetitive task to "earn" alcohol, provision of alcoholic drinks that taste like soft drink.
The research showed that drinking behavior is a function of the alcoholic's perception of the costs and benefits of alcohol.
"Even when honestly wanting to, real alcoholics cannot quit entirely, some may stay sober on willpower for a time, but always go back to it even when honestly wanting to stop. that's AA's alcoholism"
That is AAs myth that has been torn apart by the clinical research of the past 40 years.
The "Doctor's Opinion" (note the term "opinion" - not "evidence" or even "hypothesis") is wrong and is completely scientifically untenable. Read the scientific research not the book of myths.
@Hammersley1967 So if clinical research has "torn apart" this so called myth where is the clinical solution? Where is any therapy or solution that has near the track record of AA. Flatly most doctors will admit they have no successful treatment giving abstinence or any cure that allows real alcoholics to drink normally. Real alcoholics have an allergy where after taking alcohol the body craves more. Show me all this clinical research and successful therapy. I think you are selling something sir.
@Hammersley1967 So great, than all alcoholics have to do is decide to stop? Gee I wish I had know that. Wait, I tried that 30 plus times over 4 years and it did not work for any more than 6 months. Usually about 2 weeks. And all the while I was miserable. Well what went wrong? why didn't it work? Please sir. Enlighten me, where did I go wrong?
"I tried that 30 plus times over 4 years and it did not work for any more than 6 months. Usually about 2 weeks. And all the while I was miserable. Well what went wrong? why didn't it work? Please sir. Enlighten me, where did I go wrong?"
Why does the miserable morbidly obese person continue to eat high caloric foods in excess?
You drank because you found the drunken psychic state more pleasurable that the sober psychic state.
@Hamersley No I was miserable because drinking was killing me and set me back at every binge. I drank in binges. I stayed sober quite a while in 4 years but binged about every 3 weeks. In between binges I felt terrible, discontent, depressed, anxious, angry NOT HAPPY. You really don't understand what it's like to be alcoholic. Are you and alcoholic? I really didn't want to drink because of the trouble it caused. But I had the mental obsession and the disease would fool me back to drink everytime
@Hammersley1967 Huh? What? So you believe in a God? You believe a Power Greater than yourself solved your problem through taking the steps? Or do you believe the 12 steps helped give you more "knowledge about yourself" and that's how you stayed sober? I'm very curious as I got the impression you were about debunking AA.
@Hammersley1967 My apologies for being impolite On reading my posts of the last couple days I see I've been impolite which I really need to watch out for in pursuing a relationship with God. Well seems I made some assumptions about you Sir and I apologize for that. I value you are conversation and I respect your insight and interest in the subject. I look forward to more dialogue.
@Hammersley1967 This 5% would be extremely difficult if not impossible to validate. I've been to countless meetings and there never a consistent count of who is sober and who failed, how long people have been there or come and gone. NO RECORDS. At the same time the program of AA has been distorted and not carried through into the fellowship, in my opinion, by simple laziness and bad information from treatment centers getting into meetings. I follow the program in the book. Early AA 75%+ success
@Hammersley1967 Yes, I do have a source, It is a book titled "Alcoholics Anonymous" which when published was many considered by many an epoc in the annals of the fight against one of mankind's biggest social problems - alcoholism. Foreword to the 2nd edition Page X in any 3rd Edition big book. It was so well received that John D Rockefeller gave a dinner inviting AA's. As well, the Saturday Evening Post featured an articled placing a compelling picture of AA before the general public.
"Yes, I do have a source, It is a book titled "Alcoholics Anonymous""
The AA Bog Book is your "source"? Tell me, what was the research sample group? What was the methodology? What exactly id this 75% effectiveness based on?
I showed you AA OWN RESEARCH that had a flawless methodology showing that it is 95% ineffective.
Where's your proof? You've provided nothing but anecdote and personal opinion.
FACT: Very few people get sober through AA. That's a flaw in the PROGRAM.
@Hammersley1967 Where has AA published this 5% percent efficacy rate? This is complete falsehood. What AA authority published these efficacy numbers. No way AA did this. AA meetings are prohibited from taking attendance, sobriety time, names etc.. it is after all Anonymous. Early days of AA where members really worked the program. 75% +.
That's FIVE triennial surveys that all show EXACTLY the same attrition rate (95%).
Every triennial survey (line on the graph) showed exactly that same result.
If the treatment modality fails to retain the treatment population (for whatever reason) then isn't that a flaw in the treatment method? Same old tired AA response - its the newcomer's fault.
So, AA is 100% effective for alcoholics for whom AA is 100% effective for?
"Of all members who have throughly worked the steps and continue to help other alcoholics how many are still sober? Safe bet would see the result being close to 100%"
So, AA is 100% effective for those which AA is 100% effective for?
"One can't just walk into a meeting and expect results"
"It seems impossible that such a systematic effect could be achieved by any mechanism other than a SLOW attrition of newcomers during the first year. It is little comfort to suggest that many who leave return later, because those who have done that are already counted in the numbers shown here."
The sample group was taken over 12 months not just those who "walk into a meeting" once.
@Hammersley1967 Again with the 5% rate stat which is wholly inaccurate. This stat assumes walking into an AA meeting equates with trying the program of AA. Many go to meetings but are not willing to do the steps which is how one tries the program of AA. On finding that doing The Steps is what is required, many who walk in meetings quit attending because they are unwilling to do the work. That is not the fault of the program but the alcoholic.
"On finding that doing The Steps is what is required, many who walk in meetings quit attending because they are unwilling to do the work. That is not the fault of the program but the alcoholic."
That's quite a piece of conjecture you've got going there.
But, as usual, no empirical data to back your claims.
@Hammersley1967 Empirical data to back up what claim? What? By this logic it's like saying any cancer therapy is ineffective if the patient is unwilling to show up for treatment. So we don't blame a cancer patient for dying if he doesn't show up for treatment -- we blame the treatment? If any person presented with a prescription to solve a problem is unwilling to go forward with what's prescribed how can you blame the prescription. Wow, how is that conjecture it's just simple commons sense.
"Real alcoholics have an allergy where after taking alcohol the body craves more."
Volume of repetition does not equate to truth.
Substantiate this claim. What is the physiological basis for this "allergy" and "craving".
You can't because there is no scientific evidence to support the claim. Indeed, all the evidence points to th e fact that this claim is an outright myth.
It pisses me off when I hear alcoholics and druggies as disease victims. Cystic Fibrosis is a disease, Parkinson's is a disease, Hodgkin Lymphoma is a disease. You don;t have to have a drink or take drugs and you can stop. Can't stop a real disease. Stuff that's self inflicted gets no sympathy from me
polytide51 3 days ago
I had a nice cold beer watching this.
Thetarget1 5 days ago
(Continued from previous comment) I should add that as far as I know, alcohol/benzodiazepine withdrawal is the only form of drug withdrawal that can be fatal. Not even heroin withdrawal poses this risk; you'll just feel absolutely supremely shitty in every way and you wont be able to sleep a wink... but you'll live. Management a severe alcohol addiction should always be done under a doctor's supervision.
SiloKybe 1 week ago
The only problem I had with this is the very last comment from Penn about just quitting cold turkey. While this is the good option all of the time for most drug addictions, it can be a very bad option for those who are severely dependent on specifically alcohol or benzodiazepines (Xanax, Valium, Klonopin, Ativan, etc). The withdrawal syndrome is clinically identical for alcohol and any type of benzo, and in severe cases, quitting cold turkey can actually lead to a fatal seizure. read about it
SiloKybe 1 week ago
Court mandating AA is WRONG! In our city we have made the local drug court (also a bullshit thing) stop sending their assholes to us. The God thing is "as you understand God", So no it isnt a religion. AA isnt the only way, and no AA member would ever tell you that unless they are a dipshit. Also, I dont think the recovery rate in AA is 5%, I think its lower than that. "God" as i understand him doesnt really give a fuck about anything, I wish yall would have called me,sober 6 years AA works 4me
stoshd 1 month ago
(Comment 3 of 3 continued from below) My happiness and ability to be useful to society is worth the price of having logical inconsistencies in my beliefs, which I acknowledge. I really hope that anyone who is especially disparaging in here will get to know someone who is a good example of a 12 step program before judging them too harshly. And for what it's worth, the basic text of AA never uses the word "disease". I myself consider it a spiritual sickness, not something genetic.
LW87b 1 month ago
Comment removed
andreasheinz 1 month ago
@andreasheinz That one WAS cool:
WFMU :: The Cherry Blossom Clinic - June 18, 2011
- Übersetzen
you may only find it googling or in Youtube. Check for 'Spanish revolution' or '15M ... Sat. 6/18/11 5:34pm andreasheinz: "Grece will not leave..."
andreasheinz 1 month ago
@LW87b
“We have never called alcoholism a disease because, technically speaking, it is not a disease entity … we did not wish to get it wrong with the medical profession by pronouncing alcoholism a disease entity. Therefore we always called it an illness, or a malady – a far safer term to use.”
* William Griffith Wilson (1961) addressing National Catholic Clergy Conference on Alcoholism.
Hammersley1967 2 weeks ago
(Comment 2 of 3 continued from below) I know numerous people who could tell you the same thing and we are all happy people aiming to make the world a better place - pretty good for a group of people who used to be hopeless drunks, even sometimes ex-criminals. Applying the 12 steps in our lives made us better people and as a result have allowed us to have positive impact on the world...
LW87b 1 month ago
(Comment 1 of 3) I consider myself a very logical person and have the education to prove it. I watched this whole video without prejudice and can fully understand the arguments in it. That said, AA has changed my life for the better in every aspect and has allowed me to be a proper son, brother, friend, and all around person...
LW87b 1 month ago
What is with AA people dressing poorly and having ugly mustaches?
Mdriver1981 1 month ago
I like to imagine AAs bringing their rocks and seedlings to their group conscience meetings, placing them all on the table and saying their HP is the 'one ultimate authority' who expresses itself in the group conscience. Then watch as a battle of the rocks/seedlings ensues...
katoe9871 2 months ago
5:11 eddie murphey
Jay93Cee 2 months ago
For me,I just had to admit "I can't drink anymore" not even one!!! The biggest trick addicts play on themselves is thinking they can keep it under control. IT HAS TO BE ALL OR NOTHING.I choose nothing.
tatemalmsteen 2 months ago
@8:09
THIS WOMAN DOESN´T BELIEVE IN "NALTREXONE"
AS A HIGHER-POWER (treatment for alcoholism), BUT
SHE IS VERY READY & EAGER TO BELIEVE IN A ROCK,
AS A TREATMENT FOR ALCOHOLISM FOR HERSELF &
OTHERS ! And who says that AA folks aren´t INSANE &
even more fanatical & crasy after 12 Step work !
IGOROZKARSKY 3 months ago
Did anyone else notice that the guy who was the ex-counselor for the addicted in the Southwest was ObEse? DId he get addicted to Twinkies? Sheesh!
NixonisLord 3 months ago
@NixonisLord sigmond freud was a big believer in cocaine, till he discovered it was addictive----then he switiched to smoking cigars, lots of cigars, till he even got jaw cancer....and he was one who started all the psych stuff everybody beleives now days.
monk22yrs 2 months ago
I think Gary Busey was high the whole time.....and drunk.
ciaochowbella 3 months ago 3
@ciaochowbella busey was a big believer in no helmets for bikers----till he got into a bad accident and got obvious brain damage.
monk22yrs 2 months ago
This is why the U.S. will fall. Religion is dragging us down and impeding progress.
somethingdiffereable 4 months ago 5
I first heard about AA and the Twelve Steps on the South Park episode "Bloody Mary" (they are not big in Europe).
It is scary when a fact based episode of South Park is more creepy and insane than what they usually come up with.
mehja1 4 months ago
I wonder how many of the drunks interviewed that were against the AA principles are still sober or still alive for that fact.
mmurray3501 4 months ago
@mmurray3501 I'm sober three years now because I said screw that faith healing cult and left AA.
ndrthrdr1 3 months ago 2
great duel, the lesbo, filled with anger, AA dude all calm !
If you don't like AA don't go , it worked for millions so far
Deep7322 4 months ago
@Deep7322 numbers gotten from where? T.T" And as they said, works only 5% of the time, save yourself the time work on it on your own, you still got 5% to recover.
Urpuss 4 months ago in playlist Penn and Teller Bullshit!
AA was the pioneer of a recovery movement and model that is now being adopted in the field of mental health. It's good the the original premise of one person with a condition is best equipped to help another person with a similar condition.
frockjock 4 months ago
@frockjock success rate.... 5% WOOT das really a "Pioneer of recovery movement and model".
iTrollThis 3 months ago in playlist Penn and Teller's Bullshit
A lot of good points are made, but that lesbian is just the most annoying thing on earth.
ghostofandy 5 months ago in playlist Bullshit!
Im a member of AA...Didnt change a thing about how I feel about my 12 step program! Just made me want to keep going back... Thanx. :)
targa818 5 months ago
How do you say cult!
somethingdiffereable 5 months ago
SLAA, OA, & AAA (ALL ADDICTIONS ANONYMOUS) Is a joke! The one thing that degraded any recovery was forced abstinence, which just doesn't work. U can't force an addiction to go, you just have to accept yourself and your compulsions.
javaretia 5 months ago
AA is bullshit and unfortunately can be very detrimental. For years I believed the AA bullshit. It's a program of guilt, fear, and twisted religion. If anyone has a drinking problem I encourage them to seek alternatives such as Rational Recovery, Secular Organization for Recovery and SMART Recovery. AA hurts people; AA kills people.
MrJackshuman 5 months ago in playlist Denial AA sucks 2
Another great Penn & Teller episode. AA truly is bullshit.
MuikuliWander 5 months ago 3
I love the look on the black dude's face when his religion and 12 steps are confronted with logic and reason.
KuatoFilms 6 months ago
Don't feed the trolls. Hammersley1967 trolls the anti-AA sites, trying to convince people that AA isn't a religious cult. Read his comments here, and on other comments pages, and you'll see that he's a religious fanatic and a nut job. He's a good example of why AA should be avoided. I was in the AA cult for a year, and it's full of religiotards like Hammersley1967.
ndrthrdr1 6 months ago
@ndrthrdr1
HOW DARE YOU EVEN ATTEMPT TO PERVERT THE ATTEMPTS OF A FAITHFUL SOLDIER OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST!!!
YOUR PUTRID ROTTING SOUL SICKENS ME TO THE CORE!!!
I WOULD PRAY FOR YOU BUT FOR THE FEAR OF CONTAMINATING MY OWN PURE SOUL IN THE PROCESS!!!
I CAST THEE OUT DEMON!!!
Hammersley1967 6 months ago
@Hammersley1967 Hi Mr. Hammersley. I cast out demons in my spare time over the Internet so if you get more work casting them out than you can keep up with, please let me know. Also, I accept PayPal. Thank you.
MrJackshuman 5 months ago in playlist Denial AA sucks
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@MrJackshuman
At the End of Days, you and I will be seated at the right hand of the Lord in paradise. We will look on with glee as THE SALIVATING SOCIOPATHS ON THIS THREAD HAVE THEIR SINFUL SKINS TORN FROM THEIR BLASPHEMOUS BODIES AND HAVE THEIR TREACHEROUS TONGUES TORN OUT AND THROWN TO THE VORACIOUS HOUNDS OF HELL!!!!
Now go in peace my son...
Hammersley1967 5 months ago
5:19 when I saw this part, it reminded me of the far cry 3 demo on the e3 2011,
it made me chuckle :D
Kr0wz3r 6 months ago
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Almost all of this is factually true except one point. Around 4 minutes in a man says you "have to stand up and say" your name and that you're an alcoholic. You don't. And if you don't, from what I've seen, no one comments on your decision to not say it. Also, speakers are treated with no less respect or compassion when they didn't say it than when thye did.
annemariejeffrey 6 months ago in playlist Penn & Teller Bullshit: 12-Step Programs
Comment removed
annemariejeffrey 6 months ago in playlist Penn & Teller Bullshit: 12-Step Programs
A group that believes alcoholism is a disease, rejects a drug that cures it. News flash! You treat diseases with drugs!
leerman22 6 months ago 25
@leerman22 NO u treat it with faith an prayer to GOD!!!So all you religiuos ppl put down those vaccines bandages and drugs arent needed, faith is all u need to heal,since more u believe an the more devout you are =healthier.Cancer kills?BULLSHITit makes u get closer to god.Thus u shouldnt treat it as a religiuos person.If some1 is handicapped they deserved it for doing something bad in a previuos life so its gd to enjoy humiliating them its gods choice!(jks btw religon is a disease on humanity)
Thelondonbadger 4 months ago
@leerman22 ..well said.
euroman32589 2 months ago
@leerman22 but boozing and drugging aint a disease---it's a form of stoopid behavior.
monk22yrs 2 months ago
Just do what Audi Murphy did, lock yourself in a room for a week with some food and no booze, he stopped popping pills and lost a few pounds.
yomejustacandy 7 months ago
wow, how ancient.
DJLunasf 7 months ago in playlist AA Bullshit
Popular media would have us believe that EVERYBODY who uses a drug recreationally to improve their mood is an addict and can only be fixed thru a program like this. That's because you only see the ones who have had ridiculous, suicidal addictions like 3 pounds of coke per day or a truckload of meth. Many people take recreational drugs of all kinds throughout their lives and not only survive, but live healthy, productive lives. We just never hear about them.
jerico641 7 months ago
@jerico641 Jerko641's two favorite pastimes are drugs and hate. Had you been a few years younger, there is no question that you would have been a disciple of Charles Manson living at the Spahn Ranch.
RadarGuidedVermin 7 months ago
@jerico641
"Many people take recreational drugs of all kinds throughout their lives and not only survive, but live healthy, productive lives."
HOW DARE YOU!!!
Hammersley1967 6 months ago
@Hammersley1967
Okay....well, I dare because I've known a few in my lifetime. They never OD'd or went on "Intervention" because they didn't destroy themselves through addiction. Sorry if it pisses you off, but it's true.
jerico641 6 months ago
@jerico641
LIAR!!!
SPAWN OF SATAN!!!
GET BACK TO THE DEMON'S LAIR THAT SPAWNED YOU!!!
Hammersley1967 6 months ago
@Hammersley1967
Okay...well, it's been a real treat chatting with you, but I think I'm just gonna be on my way now. Have a nice day...wow.
jerico641 6 months ago
@jerico641
At the End of Days, when I am seated at the right hand of the Lord, I will look on with glee as YOU AND THE REST OF THE SALIVATING SOCIOPATHS ON THIS THREAD HAVE THEIR SINFUL SKINS TORN FROM THEIR BLASPHEMOUS BODIES AND HAVE THEIR TREACHEROUS TONGUES TORN OUT AND THROWN TO THE VORACIOUS HOUNDS OF HELL!!!!
Hammersley1967 6 months ago
@Hammersley1967 mmmmm sorry i dont think that happens in heaven and if you hope it does you probably arent going to heaven you sadist but then again heaven and hell arent real so all you are is a pathetic sadist fear-mongering nutjob ranting on youtube
420scatman 6 months ago
@420scatman
"sorry i dont think that happens in heaven"
HOW DARE YOU CAST DOUBT ON THE TEACHINGS OF THE HOLY APOSTOLIC ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH!!!
AT THE END OF DAYS YOU WILL BE SCREAMING AND BEGGING FOR MERCY FROM RIGHTEOUS AND JUST LORD!!!
HE WILL SHOW YOU HIS LOVE BY TEARING YOUR LOWER JAW OFF AND YOU SHALL THEN HAVE TO BE FED BY THE DEMONS OF HADES THROWING CREAM PIES IN YOUR FACE!!!
Hammersley1967 6 months ago
@Hammersley1967
Hmmm, "Salivating Sociopaths with Sinful Skins, Blasphemous Bodies and Treacherous Tongues"; that's very catchy, set that to music right away.
jerico641 6 months ago
@jerico641
I was think of backing those lyrics with the Benny Hill theme...
XD
Hammersley1967 6 months ago
@Hammersley1967
That would probably sound great; btw, my compliments, you do the whole evangelical nutjob act very well.
jerico641 6 months ago
@jerico641
You are a veritable artist, scholar and a gentleman...
I TAKE MY HAT OFF TO YOU KIND SIR!!!
Hammersley1967 6 months ago
@Hammersley1967
Thank you; same to you.
jerico641 6 months ago
@jerico641 Pretty sure he's joking, don't worry.
gorgack2000 6 months ago
@gorgack2000
Well, i sure hope so anyway; on here it's difficult to tell sometimes lol
jerico641 6 months ago
The thing I worry about with the courts is that instead of offering 12 step meetings or prison, they might say, OK prisons for everyone instead of giving defendants a choice between different treatments or prisons.
christo930 7 months ago
Thomas B is "dead" (out of service). Praise the Lord and Joe B.
andreasheinz 7 months ago
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When I'd had enough of AA (to me it was more a prayer group than a support group), I found it hard to break the habit of going to AA meetings. If you're in that position, I suggest that you Google this: YouTube Deprogramming Oneself From Alcoholics Anonymous. It's just one of many videos on the subject that helped me break my meeting habit. I'm currently at 925 consecutive days sober, and far happier than I was during my year in AA.
ndrthrdr1 7 months ago
"you have to believe the same thing they do, cuz if you don't, you're not going to make it"
Sounds like the heaven-hell ultimatum
FalloutTheMaster 7 months ago 21
@FalloutTheMaster
I BELIEVE IN YOU!!!
AND I WILL FIGHT TO THE DEATH TO DEFEND YOUR HONOUR!!!
Hammersley1967 7 months ago
@Hammersley1967 "sobrietytelevision"
andreasheinz 7 months ago
"But I guess that is the way it goes in a masonic created cult. Fake it until you make it.
beautifulmind546"
OMG ! Mike and Jasmes takes over !
andreasheinz 8 months ago
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While AA members are busy "working the steps" to supposedly fix their wrongdoings, ppl outside of AA are doing that on a minute to minute basis. Working the steps can sometimes take the aa member years and even then their so called amends are often never made under the loopholes provided (when it harms self or others). But I guess that is the way it goes in a masonic created cult. Fake it until you make it.
beautifulmind546 8 months ago 3
Either the 'disease' is spiritual, caused by a distance from God. Or it is physical/mental, the function of a biological defect. Which is it?
And is the concept of a physical allergy coupled with a mental obsession supposed to be different to addiction? Or is it the same thing, meaning the disease is addiction? Does that mean that 'addiction' to cluttering, gang membership, vulgarity, indebtedness emotions and pickles are diseases too?
katoe9871 8 months ago
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@katoe9871
"Does that mean that 'addiction' to cluttering, gang membership, vulgarity, indebtedness emotions and pickles are diseases too?"
Give the American Psychiatric Association time and they will eventually pathologise every single mode of deviant human behaviourv - including the ones that you cited...
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@Hammersley1967 'My name is Katoe9871 and i am a grateful recovering pickler, abstinent for 20 years, relieved from the bondage of gherkins by the grace of a rock greater than myself. By some miracle, i now prefer sweet foods to savoury items, and avoid all forms of antipasto lest they trigger the physical allergy which defines my disease. That would put me in a real picke!'
katoe9871 8 months ago
@katoe9871 Either the 'disease' is spiritual, caused by a distance from God. Or it is physical/mental, the function of a biological defect. Which is it? Who says it has to be either one or the other? What kind of reason is that? What really matters is what the sufferer experiences. Ask any real alcoholic. Most all will agree they cannot control the amount they take once they start and can't quit for any meaningful interval when they honestly want to. Thats what matters, that's alcoholism.
1through12step 8 months ago
@1through12step
You're a fucking sanctimonious bore.
gtdupree 7 months ago
@katoe9871 And is the concept of a physical allergy coupled with a mental obsession supposed to be different to addiction? Or is it the same thing, meaning the disease is addiction?
What is going to help you is that these things are not one or the other, black and what, yes or no. What matters, again, is what the sufferer experiences and ultimately what gives relief to the sufferer. All else is just talk. When something works you do it. For me and millions, that is AA, -- worked for 18 years
1through12step 8 months ago
Comment removed
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@1through12step
"...most members of Alcoholics Anonymous do speak of their alcoholism in terms of disease: the vocabulary of disease was from the beginning and still remains for most of them the best available for understanding and explaining their own experience. But the use of that vocabulary no more implies deep commitment to the tenet that alcoholism is a disease in some ... medical sense than speaking of sunrise or sunset implies disbelief in a Copernican solar system"
*Ernst Kurtz (2002)
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
Comment removed
katoe9871 8 months ago
1through12step GoToHell
At the end of this decade any addict will be send to treatment and return safely to normality. Not its because its hard but because its easy.
andreasheinz 8 months ago
Take control of your life, thats the P&T solution? Just don't do it? Just make a decision and stick to it? Thousands of real alcoholics honestly want to stop or moderate but can't . Real alcoholics cannot moderate as they can't stop drinking once they start. When honestly wanting to stop real alcoholics find that even through really wanting to their minds trick them back to it. The alcoholic mind lacks rational thinking about booze and returns to drink even though honestly not wanting to.
1through12step 8 months ago
@1through12step GoToHell
New Threads.
Hammer, "drinking behavior is a function of the alcoholic's perception of the costs and benefits of alcohol."
OK, thats true for any addiction.
NO, there is no such thing as psycho-emotional. Or psycho-analytical (psychodynamic), psycho-behavior, psycho-cocnitive, psycho-didactical...psycho-functional etc etc.
Dont say psycho-emotional but psycho (emmotional) WTF.
andreasheinz 8 months ago
@1through12step GoToHell
Hammer, Dr Paul Olighers first approach, rather cocnitive-behavioral, doesn't work (circular logic)
His 12 step-guide is a joke
The late work (after suffering 30 yrs in the 12step-world) aint so bad.
andreasheinz 8 months ago
@andreasheinz No thanks andrea, I don't want to go to hell. I've been there already as a result of my drinking. What I have now is more like a heaven on earth. I was aethiest before AA. Now with a God in my life I have more money that I need, a job, shot at early retirement, friends, -- true happiness and a shot at more. Before, running the show myself didn't work. With a HP in my life things are great. I help many people who really need help to find a way out from alcoholism and for free!
1through12step 8 months ago
@1through12step
29. Alemlerin Rabbi Allah dilemedikçe siz dileyemezsiniz.
andreasheinz 8 months ago
Comment removed
andreasheinz 8 months ago
Do'nt fuck with the HAMMER! HAMMERSLEY1967!
Richcool79 8 months ago
HAMMERSLEY1967! KING HAMMERSLEY1967! He is the one who can redeem from the evil cult vacuum of candy land! I bow to my master HAMMERSLEY 1967!
Richcool79 8 months ago
@Hammersley1967 This implies it's about "reinforcing the decision". Real alcoholics lack the ability to decide whether to drink or not. They may honestly want to quit and stay sober for a time but most all go back to it even after countless counseling sessions with the best psychiatrists. Why is this? Because they have alcoholism and part of what the disease IS is the inability to choose. Sir, sorry you are wrong and at worst trying to sell another fly by night therapy.
1through12step 8 months ago
@1through12step
"Real alcoholics lack the ability to decide whether to drink or not"
So, how is anyone sober in AA? According to you, they "lack the ability to choose not to". So they are condemned for life right?
"they have alcoholism and part of what the disease IS is the inability to choose"
That statement is counter to the juggernaut of conclusive clinical research.
See the pilot studies of diagnosed gamma alcoholics: Cohen et al (1971); Gottheil et al (1972); Mello & Mendelson (1972).
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@Hammersley1967 A timeout procedure? I just looked up the Cohen et al ec.. It suppressed their use when they were "punished" through 10-15 minutes of isolation. But drinking continued when they quit being punished? Yea if I was locked up everytime I took a drink I'd probably force myself to moderate. Permanent abstinence through this so called treatment? Are you serious? How successful was this? It's the first I've heard of it and I've been going to AA meetings full of alcoholics for 20 years.
1through12step 8 months ago
@1through12step
"Yea if I was locked up everytime I took a drink I'd probably force myself to moderate."
Hang on... Didn't you say that alcoholism was a disease (physical allergy) in which the alcoholic CANNOT, under any circumstances, control the amount they drink?
Is the alcoholic "powerless" over alcohol or not? You can't have it both ways...
A disease that is mediated by social and consequential circumstance?
I've never heard of that... Until now...
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@Hammersley1967 "you can't have it both ways?" Orange? Dude? hello? Sir the real questions I've asked have not been answered. Yes the real alcoholic is powerless over alcohol, many have varying degrees of power for small TIMES to moderate or abstain, I stayed sober and moderated many times but only for short intervals. Notice the study summary also says when this "circumstance of consequence" was removed they went straight back to heavy consumption. it is NO solution to give permanent abstinence
1through12step 8 months ago
@1through12step
"Yes the real alcoholic is powerless over alcohol, many have varying degrees of power for small TIMES to moderate or abstain"
You mean alcoholics have got SOME power to abstain or moderate?
Abstain or moderate fro a month? Two months? A year?
"POWERLESS" literally means and absence of "POWER".
NO CONTROL.
Are they powerless or not?
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@1through12step
"Yes the real alcoholic is powerless over alcohol, many have varying degrees of power for small TIMES to moderate or abstain"
For the 18th time, the experiment was never intended to be a TREATMENT.
It was research to test the tenets of "loss of control", "powerlessness", the inability to CHOOSE, and "disease".
And get what? They found that alcoholics COULD moderate and abstain from drinking.
Thus, alcoholic drinking is a deliberate act.
Get it? NO? Didn't think so...
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@Hammersley Where did I say in my comment that the experiment was treatment. I understand what it is. I am admitting that what they found is true. But it's findings do not add to understanding the problem anymore than AA already understands the problem. Many alcoholics abstain for short intervals. I did it countless times. We are after lasting abstinence are we not. That is what alcoholics cannot achieve through simple firm decision. I tried countless times to no avail.
1through12step 8 months ago
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@1through12step
"So if clinical research has "torn apart" this so called myth where is the clinical solution?"
Clinical research to answer a clinical research question. It has absolutely NO relevance to treatment techniques.
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
Comment removed
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@1through12step
"Yea if I was locked up everytime I took a drink I'd probably force myself to moderate"
Didn't you say "Real alcoholics lack the ability to decide whether to drink or not"?
So you're saying that under these circumstances you WOULD decide to abstain or moderate?
Doesn't that lead is to the inevitable conclusion (according to your logic) that you are NOT a "REAL" alcoholic?
Alcoholics can or can't decide not to drink?
Which is it? You seems to be having a bet both ways...
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@Hammersley1967 Sure under these circumstances I would moderate or abstain. For this short period when being punished directly after taking a drink I think I could. It would be extremely difficult and I have abstained for short periods of time on my own decision. But to continue to abstain for a prolonged extended period (the 18 years I have abstained now) NO WAY! I'm not having it both ways. Many alcoholics can abstain or moderate for short periods. But in prolonged sobriety they always fail.
1through12step 8 months ago
@1through12step
"Permanent abstinence through this so called treatment? Are you serious? How successful was this?"
Once again you are confused as to what "research" is and what "treatment" is.
This was a CLINICAL EXPERIMENT not a TREATMENT METHOD.
How successful was it? Well, in terms of the answering the central research's question: "is alcoholism a condition that overwhelms rational choice" it was superbly successful.
The answer was a conclusive NO.
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@Hammersley1967 So what's your point then? I think all this research found out is that if an alcoholic is directly punished as soon as he takes a drink that he will moderate. How does this apply to real world circumstance. If alcoholism isn't a condition that overwhelms rational choice then why is it when alcohol punishes alcoholics over and over again they continue to use it? What is the point here? You've lost me.
1through12step 8 months ago
@1through12step
"I think all this research found out is that if an alcoholic is directly punished as soon as he takes a drink that he will moderate."
A drunk will moderate consumption if influenced with monetary inducements, repetitive (boring) tasks, or if told that the alcohol they are drinking is a soft drink.
All this evidence proves that the alcoholic can and does exercise CHOICE in regards to his/her drinking behaviour. Their choice to drink is a function of their perception of alcohol.
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@Hammersley1967 Let me correct myself as I didn't' fully explain. I think all this research found out is that if an alcoholic is directly isolated right after taking a drink that they will moderate for a short period of time. But notice that when the direct consequence is removed they go right back to heavy consumption. This research you are basing your whole rational on is flawed. The more obvious evidence is in the testimony of alcoholics who have tried and tried to quit for good but can't.
1through12step 8 months ago
@1through12step
"I think all this research found out is that if an alcoholic is directly isolated right after taking a drink that they will moderate for a short period of time"
The Mello & Mendleson studies were during alcoholic's stays in hospital. Some of these stays were up to two months. What the studies show is that there is no biochemical or physio-pathological reaction that overwhelms rational choice.
Alcoholism = preference for the drunken state to the sober state of consciousness.
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@Hammersley1967 Wow, most would agree that this research that's noted here is by no means a juggernaut of clinical research. So after this juggernaut of clinical research were is the proven successful therapy? So what is it? All doctors need to do is just tell there alcoholic patients. If it hurts when you drink, just don't drink then? Or all you need to do is build yourself an isolation chamber, when you get the urge or start to drink duck into it. Come on!!
1through12step 8 months ago
@1through12step
"this research that's noted here is by no means a juggernaut of clinical research"
Is 9 references not enough for you? These are the pilot studies. They have been repeated several times over the past 40 years and show the same results.
"So after this juggernaut of clinical research were is the proven successful therapy?"
CBT, aversion therapy, social capital intervention, therapeutic community.
You seem to be confused as to the distinction between research and treatment.
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@1through12step Farts 2.0-troll? FE eu-rehabs have detailed user-satisfaction-tests after finishing a $ 10 k for 91-112 days run.
andreasheinz 8 months ago
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@quickcap Thank you! Well said.
1through12step 8 months ago
I wish that S.O.S program (and the other secular ones) all the best, they're doing wonderful work.
I also hope those that attend get what they need from it.
If I ever needed support, I'd go to them & not the faith based cults.
nag73 8 months ago
@ sinisterkitty
I could take your ass to town!!!
Stop your bitching and do the steps with a sponsor- that's why we repeat the same thing over and over... shut the Fk up do the work
donlapcam 9 months ago
@donlapcam Dude tone it down a bit. When representing AA we need to be civil about it. This kind of talk is what drives people away. Please man, be helpful not hurtful. There are better ways to say it. Have a look at what I wrote to sinisterkitty.
1through12step 8 months ago
AA works - it had worked perfectly - don't change the program get your self to a real
Step study and your life will be re created !!!
That fat guy is a joke - look at him he looks like a scalper in the red light district. He's a loser if he really new the program he would not be saying that shit on YouTube run from
People like that guy at meetings they don't do the work- egotistical psychopaths
donlapcam 9 months ago
love of rock indeed
MochizMuM 9 months ago
Fallacy 1: You have to have God to be in AA. Good Orderly Direction is used by atheists in AA. Fallacy 2: 100% abstinence or failure; Alcholics who drank daily but stop for months with a relapse are not failures. They would have been institutionalized before 1939. Fallacy 3: BS he does not support the 5% independent study. (Non AA) # came right out of his ass. Of the 95% who relapsed. What was the rate of usage? Sadly as usual the slant is wrong. This show could have been so much better.
arrdvarks1 9 months ago
@arrdvarks1 I believe this Good Orderly Direction idea is never mentioned anywhere in the literature. The Big Book says God can be found within and many start with the group as a higher power but graduate up once really doing the steps. AA is all about spirituality and real atheists I don't believe can complete the steps. Some may be just hard drinkers that like AA for the social aspect. The Good Orderly Direction is not an AA idea I believe. Maybe a way to start believing but not for long
1through12step 8 months ago
@1through12step
"AA is all about spirituality and real atheists I don't believe can complete the steps. Some may be just hard drinkers that like AA for the social aspect"
So your "diagnosis" of a REAL alcoholic is someone who get's sober through "belief in god" and "working the steps"?
Anyone who gets sober by any other means is, a priori, deemed to be "not a REAL alcoholic"?
Thus, the AA method is the defining criteria of REAL alcoholism?
Are you aware of the circular nature of that logic?
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@Hammersley1967 No, becoming recovered is not the criteria of who is and who is not an alcoholic, of course not. The AA book describes alcoholism as a two fold disease. 1)Allergy of the body 2)obsession of the mind. 1)real alcoholics cannot control the amount they take once they start drinking. 2) Even when honestly wanting to, real alcoholics cannot quit entirely, some may stay sober on willpower for a time, but always go back to it even when honestly wanting to stop. that's AA's alcoholism
1through12step 8 months ago
@1through12step
"The AA book describes alcoholism as a two fold disease. 1)Allergy of the body 2)obsession of the mind."
The second criteria (obsession of the mind) I can accept. The first criteria (allergy of the body) I cannot. It has been 228 years since the disease theory of alcoholism was incepted by Dr Benjamin Rush.
After 228 years of intense medical investigation, there is not a shred of scientific evidence to support the notion that alcoholism is a disease (or physical allergy).
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@Hammersley1967 Not a shred of scientific evidence? what about the testimony of countless alcoholics that experience an overwhelming desire to consume more alcohol once after they have a couple of drinks? Is not the experience of countless alcoholics enough? If every time they drink the get into some kind of undesired trouble why don't they just moderate or stop? Sir, it's simple, because even when repeatedly punished by alcohol they go back to it. Why? They have become alcoholic. No shred?
1through12step 8 months ago
@1through12step
"Not a shred of scientific evidence? what about the testimony of countless alcoholics that experience an overwhelming desire to consume more alcohol once after they have a couple of drinks? Is not the experience of countless alcoholics enough?"
No, anecdotal self report is not "enough". It is full of value-laden, subjective, qualitative, cultural and psychosocial import.
Empirical scientific evidence controls the sample group and only relies on objective sensory verification.
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@Hammersley1967 So it's not enough? Who says? Hammersley? Where is this empirical scientific evidence the flys in the face of what real alcoholics experience on a daily basis? It doesn't take a scientist to see that normal drinkers can have a few and leave it alone, but alcoholics can't seem to stop once they get started. Please enlighten us Sir. Where is all this empirical scientific evidence? this old, (72') short lived experiment of isolation suppressing drinking for brief periods? Please
1through12step 8 months ago
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@1through12step
"So it's not enough? Who says? Hammersley? Where is this empirical scientific evidence the flys in the face of what real alcoholics experience on a daily basis?"
Mendelson et al 1964; Mello & Mendelson 1972; Cohen et al 1971a, 1971b; Gottheil et al 1972; Heather & Robertson 1981; Bigelow & Liebson 1972; Pattison, Sobell & Sobell 1977; Marlatt, Deming & Reid 1973.
They do not debunk the "desire" for alcohol. They debunk the idea of "loss of control" and physiological "disease".
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@1through12step
"It doesn't take a scientist to see that normal drinkers can have a few and leave it alone, but alcoholics cant seem to stop once they get started ... Where is all this empirical scientific evidence?"
Actually, give the right inducements, they can.
Evidence? For the 5th time.
Mendelson et al 1964; Mello & Mendelson 1972; Cohen et al 1971a, 1971b; Gottheil et al 1972; Heather & Robertson 1981; Bigelow & Liebson 1972; Pattison, Sobell & Sobell 1977; Marlatt, Deming & Reid 1973.
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@Hammersley196 OK, great the right inducements. So there is a therapy. Given the right inducements yea thats the ticket. Oh, wait those inducements? What about real world circumstance outside of a clinic. Gee how do we on a daily basis give these inducements while an alcoholic is say at work? Or at home afterward? Out at a restaurant? Driving down the road where there are many liquor stores. Inducements in a clinic, that's kinda like say jail or being institutionalized. What a life that would be
1through12step 8 months ago
@1through12step
"Oh, wait those inducements? What about real world circumstance outside of a clinic. Gee how do we on a daily basis give these inducements while an alcoholic is say at work?"
Sure, I get your point...
The alcoholic uses alcohol inresponce to the pressures, stresses and social circumstance of real life situations.
So, is alcoholism a physical "disease" that over powers all rational volition?
Nope... It's a response (albeit a dysfunctional one) to life and internal reality.
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@1through12step
"real alcoholics cannot control the amount they take once they start drinking."
As I said, the clinical research over the past 40 years has shown this central tenet of the disease theory is absolutely false. Given the right psychosocial setting, diagnosed gamma alcoholics can and do moderate and abstain from drinking.
SEE: Bigelow & Liebson 1972; Mello and Mendelson’s 1972; Gottheil et al 1972.
The notion of "one drink, one drunk" has been conclusively debunked by science.
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@Hammersley1967 What is a gamma alcoholic and who makes this diagnosis of a gamma alcoholic?
1through12step 8 months ago
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@1through12step
"What is a gamma alcoholic and who makes this diagnosis of a gamma alcoholic?"
Gamma alcoholic = physiological addiction to alcohol. If the gamma alcoholic stops drinking, physiological withdrawal symptoms ensue.
This typology was forwarded by Dr E.M. Jellinek - a champion of Alcoholics Anonymous and the disease concept of addiction.
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@Hammersley1967 Alcoholics may abstain or moderate for short intervals especially when electrocuted after each drink! : -) I quit 100's of times sometimes for weeks but would always wind up binging again and experiencing all the accompanying trouble with the law and friends, depression, pain and anguish. Most alcoholics really want to quit and try, some quiting for short intervals and sometimes years but most always go back. AA offers a complete relief and sustained prolonged abstinence.
1through12step 8 months ago
@1through12step
"AA offers a complete relief and sustained prolonged abstinence."
To 5% of the "treatment" population...
And that's according to AAs own research...
THAT'S what AA offers...
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@Hammersley1967 Here we go with your 5% stat again. You love to cling to this very flimsy reed to support your view. This stat cannot be accurate to any scientifically valuable precision. For a number of reasons. 1st) just walking into an AA meeting does not equate with trying the AA program and thousands of people walk in but are not willing to try the program. Trying the program means doing the work which many are just unwilling to do. The 12 steps are not easy directions to take.
1through12step 8 months ago
@1through12step
"Here we go with your 5% stat again. You love to cling to this very flimsy reed to support your view"
And what have you provided to support your view? The Big Book? Anecdote? Personal opinion?
What you've provided is absolutely laughable.
The methodology of the AA research was (surprisingly) flawless.
Less than a twelfth of those who present at AA are still there 12 months later.
That's that hard facts.
Remember this is AA's OWN RESEARCH.
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@Hammersley If this stat is even 1/2 correct it's pretty discouraging for the fellowship. I actually see this first. BUT - The fellowship has not suffered because the program of AA is failing, it's because the fellowship lacks the knowledge it once had of the program of AA. Meetings today are quite far from the original purpose they were intended and a travesty is actually taking place where ideas from treatments centers and elsewhere are polluting meetings to the extent the program is lost.
1through12step 8 months ago
@1through12step
"If this stat is even 1/2 correct it's pretty discouraging"
Let's put it into perspective. ALL treatment approaches have a similar efficacy rate of 3 - 5%. It may not so much be a reflection on AA, but rather a reflection of our social attitudes to alcohol. Let's face it, we (in the west) live in a culture of intoxication. In such a sociocultural context, there is a "pull away" effect from any abstinence based treatment. Total abstinence aint a sexy option to the average drunk.
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@1through12step
"a travesty is actually taking place where ideas from treatments centers and elsewhere are polluting meetings to the extent the program is lost."
I agree that this is another hindrance to AA efficacy. The dumping of government mandated, non-compliant "members" into AA meetings has no doubt eroded the outcomes.
IMO, it is a clear breach of traditions 1, 3 & 11. But the elevation of the 5th tradition (as somehow more important than the others) has facilitated this "pollution".
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@1through12step
"abstain or moderate for short intervals especially when electrocuted after each drink!"
If you'd read the research, you'd know that that is a gross exaggeration. The psychosocial adjustments were inducements of money to moderate or abstain, the requirement of a repetitive task to "earn" alcohol, provision of alcoholic drinks that taste like soft drink.
The research showed that drinking behavior is a function of the alcoholic's perception of the costs and benefits of alcohol.
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@1through12step
"Even when honestly wanting to, real alcoholics cannot quit entirely, some may stay sober on willpower for a time, but always go back to it even when honestly wanting to stop. that's AA's alcoholism"
That is AAs myth that has been torn apart by the clinical research of the past 40 years.
The "Doctor's Opinion" (note the term "opinion" - not "evidence" or even "hypothesis") is wrong and is completely scientifically untenable. Read the scientific research not the book of myths.
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@Hammersley1967 So if clinical research has "torn apart" this so called myth where is the clinical solution? Where is any therapy or solution that has near the track record of AA. Flatly most doctors will admit they have no successful treatment giving abstinence or any cure that allows real alcoholics to drink normally. Real alcoholics have an allergy where after taking alcohol the body craves more. Show me all this clinical research and successful therapy. I think you are selling something sir.
1through12step 8 months ago
@1through12step
"So if clinical research has "torn apart" this so called myth where is the clinical solution?"
The aim of the clinical research was to ascertain what alcoholism WAS NOT - not what alcoholism IS...
And it superbly demonstrated that alcoholism IS NOT a physiological disease in which the alcoholic has NO control over drinking behaviour.
Nothing more, nothing less...
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@Hammersley1967 So great, than all alcoholics have to do is decide to stop? Gee I wish I had know that. Wait, I tried that 30 plus times over 4 years and it did not work for any more than 6 months. Usually about 2 weeks. And all the while I was miserable. Well what went wrong? why didn't it work? Please sir. Enlighten me, where did I go wrong?
1through12step 8 months ago
@1through12step
"I tried that 30 plus times over 4 years and it did not work for any more than 6 months. Usually about 2 weeks. And all the while I was miserable. Well what went wrong? why didn't it work? Please sir. Enlighten me, where did I go wrong?"
Why does the miserable morbidly obese person continue to eat high caloric foods in excess?
You drank because you found the drunken psychic state more pleasurable that the sober psychic state.
Are you saying you drank because you hated it?
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@Hamersley No I was miserable because drinking was killing me and set me back at every binge. I drank in binges. I stayed sober quite a while in 4 years but binged about every 3 weeks. In between binges I felt terrible, discontent, depressed, anxious, angry NOT HAPPY. You really don't understand what it's like to be alcoholic. Are you and alcoholic? I really didn't want to drink because of the trouble it caused. But I had the mental obsession and the disease would fool me back to drink everytime
1through12step 8 months ago
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@1through12step
"In between binges I felt terrible, discontent, depressed, anxious, angry NOT HAPPY."
That might be the answer to the question as to why you drank?
"You really don't understand what it's like to be alcoholic. Are you and alcoholic?"
Yes I am... Sober 16 years in the 12 step program.
I have experienced the chronic desire to be involved in alcoholic intoxication...
No doubt
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@Hammersley1967 Huh? What? So you believe in a God? You believe a Power Greater than yourself solved your problem through taking the steps? Or do you believe the 12 steps helped give you more "knowledge about yourself" and that's how you stayed sober? I'm very curious as I got the impression you were about debunking AA.
1through12step 8 months ago
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@1through12step
"So you believe in a God? You believe a Power Greater than yourself solved your problem through taking the steps?"
I'm open to it.
Put it this way, I don't proactively DISBELIEVE the idea of a creative intelligence.
The steps? Yeah, I accessed the idea for my first (and second) run through them.
"Or do you believe the 12 steps helped give you more "knowledge about yourself" and that's how you stayed sober?"
Yep,that to. They absolutely gave me freedom from self ignorance.
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@Hammersley1967 My apologies for being impolite On reading my posts of the last couple days I see I've been impolite which I really need to watch out for in pursuing a relationship with God. Well seems I made some assumptions about you Sir and I apologize for that. I value you are conversation and I respect your insight and interest in the subject. I look forward to more dialogue.
1through12step 8 months ago
@1through12step
"Where is any therapy or solution that has near the track record of AA."
You mean AA's "outstanding" 5% efficacy rate? (That's AA's OWN research).
It's been matched by all sorts of behavioural modification therapies - CBT, Aversion Therapy, Social Capital Therapy, etc...
They all have and equally dismal efficacy of around 5% sobriety after one year of therapy inception.
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@Hammersley1967 This 5% would be extremely difficult if not impossible to validate. I've been to countless meetings and there never a consistent count of who is sober and who failed, how long people have been there or come and gone. NO RECORDS. At the same time the program of AA has been distorted and not carried through into the fellowship, in my opinion, by simple laziness and bad information from treatment centers getting into meetings. I follow the program in the book. Early AA 75%+ success
1through12step 8 months ago
@1through12step
"Early AA 75%+ success"
Where's the evidence?
Do you have a source or just more opinion and conjecture?
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@Hammersley1967 Yes, I do have a source, It is a book titled "Alcoholics Anonymous" which when published was many considered by many an epoc in the annals of the fight against one of mankind's biggest social problems - alcoholism. Foreword to the 2nd edition Page X in any 3rd Edition big book. It was so well received that John D Rockefeller gave a dinner inviting AA's. As well, the Saturday Evening Post featured an articled placing a compelling picture of AA before the general public.
1through12step 8 months ago
@1through12step
"Yes, I do have a source, It is a book titled "Alcoholics Anonymous""
The AA Bog Book is your "source"? Tell me, what was the research sample group? What was the methodology? What exactly id this 75% effectiveness based on?
I showed you AA OWN RESEARCH that had a flawless methodology showing that it is 95% ineffective.
Where's your proof? You've provided nothing but anecdote and personal opinion.
FACT: Very few people get sober through AA. That's a flaw in the PROGRAM.
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@1through12step
"Foreword to the 2nd edition Page X in any 3rd Edition big book. It was so well received that John D Rockefeller gave a dinner inviting AA's."
THAT'S your verification of the 75% effective claim? A dinner put on by Rockefeller?
What was the sample group? What was the methodology? Where's the raw data?
More conjecture, anecdote and ultimately myth...
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@Hammersley1967 Where has AA published this 5% percent efficacy rate? This is complete falsehood. What AA authority published these efficacy numbers. No way AA did this. AA meetings are prohibited from taking attendance, sobriety time, names etc.. it is after all Anonymous. Early days of AA where members really worked the program. 75% +.
1through12step 8 months ago
@1through12step
Just Google "COMMENTS ON AA'S TRIENNIAL SURVEYS".
Scroll down to page 12 to view the graph (figure C-1).
Methodology, inference and conclusion are on pages 11 and 13.
This is the longitudinal results of not less that FIVE triennial surveys from 1977 - 1989.
NOTE: "... that average suggests strongly that about half of those who come to AA are gone within three months"...
Not good...
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@Hammersley1967 These surveys give no precise efficacy stats. Reliable stats will never
be had. But what a good survey (which could never really get carried out) would be is this:
Of all members who have throughly worked the steps and continue to help
other alcoholics how many are still sober? Safe bet would see the result being close to 100%
Meeting attendance does not immediately equate to "trying AA" One can't just walk into a meeting and expect results. It is in doing the step work.
1through12step 8 months ago
@1through12step
"These surveys give no precise efficacy stats"
That's FIVE triennial surveys that all show EXACTLY the same attrition rate (95%).
Every triennial survey (line on the graph) showed exactly that same result.
If the treatment modality fails to retain the treatment population (for whatever reason) then isn't that a flaw in the treatment method? Same old tired AA response - its the newcomer's fault.
So, AA is 100% effective for alcoholics for whom AA is 100% effective for?
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
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@1through12step
"Of all members who have throughly worked the steps and continue to help other alcoholics how many are still sober? Safe bet would see the result being close to 100%"
So, AA is 100% effective for those which AA is 100% effective for?
That's what you call circular reasoning....
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@1through12step
"One can't just walk into a meeting and expect results"
"It seems impossible that such a systematic effect could be achieved by any mechanism other than a SLOW attrition of newcomers during the first year. It is little comfort to suggest that many who leave return later, because those who have done that are already counted in the numbers shown here."
The sample group was taken over 12 months not just those who "walk into a meeting" once.
It's a damning finding...
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@Hammersley1967 Again with the 5% rate stat which is wholly inaccurate. This stat assumes walking into an AA meeting equates with trying the program of AA. Many go to meetings but are not willing to do the steps which is how one tries the program of AA. On finding that doing The Steps is what is required, many who walk in meetings quit attending because they are unwilling to do the work. That is not the fault of the program but the alcoholic.
1through12step 8 months ago
@1through12step
"On finding that doing The Steps is what is required, many who walk in meetings quit attending because they are unwilling to do the work. That is not the fault of the program but the alcoholic."
That's quite a piece of conjecture you've got going there.
But, as usual, no empirical data to back your claims.
Blame the alcoholic for an ineffective program.
That's what we call "indoctrination".
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@Hammersley1967 Empirical data to back up what claim? What? By this logic it's like saying any cancer therapy is ineffective if the patient is unwilling to show up for treatment. So we don't blame a cancer patient for dying if he doesn't show up for treatment -- we blame the treatment? If any person presented with a prescription to solve a problem is unwilling to go forward with what's prescribed how can you blame the prescription. Wow, how is that conjecture it's just simple commons sense.
1through12step 8 months ago
@1through12step
"Real alcoholics have an allergy where after taking alcohol the body craves more."
Volume of repetition does not equate to truth.
Substantiate this claim. What is the physiological basis for this "allergy" and "craving".
You can't because there is no scientific evidence to support the claim. Indeed, all the evidence points to th e fact that this claim is an outright myth.
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@Hammersley1967 Well sir why does there need to be scientific