You need to get the understanding that skin is not skin colour, and becoming white is not becoming wite in skin colour, but becoming righteous, white is this as symbol of light and truth and righteous behaviour, nothing else ever. The cursing of skin is NOT a cursing of skin colour, but of scales of darkness, a lack of understanding. It was been misunderstood inside the church as well as outside, and needed therefore a clear change to be accepted by racist backgrunds, came in 1978.
I feel for this as a Black man. These are tactics that many mormons use to excuse their over 130 yrs of racism and bigotry. It's become so easy to refute their arguments and if there honest with themselves, they will see Mormonism is utter bullshit.
I have no racism in my home... and there never has been racism between myself or anyone else. I loved the people of Ecuador and have loved people from all races and creeds. What you fail to identify or understand is that racisim is a human condition and existed many centuries before the restored Gospel. Not Mormon Made. Existed 4 many decades into Christ's primitive church when the Saints had brought religion to the Gentiles. Jews considered themselves superior to the Gentiles and still YET do.
@successlosing What you fail to understand is the Mormon prophets said GOD told them to discriminate against Black people. Sure there was racism among fallible humans, but as soon as an institution says GOD requires discrimination and therefore racism, you have errant doctrine and it is easy to detect that it is not God's church. God is the same yesterday, today and forever and never was a racist. Racism is from man not God.
@Gods1truechurchmyass - you, my friend, are an ignoramus. Although certain quotes taken out of context have raised suspicion regarding the matter, the church doctrine does not reflect it. Ignoring the racism problem being a human condition which existed many years before 1830 isn't helping your argument either.
The revelation in 1978 isn't helpful to it either since the priesthood is the power to act in God's name and it's God's to allow not of man. See also 2 Nephi 26:33 ... PLEASE!
@successlosing God never discriminated against ANYONE because of the color of skin. He also does not turn skin dark because of unrighteousness. I feel very sorry for you that you believe in such a racist God. I will not listen to your lies. If that makes me an ignoramus, I wear the title with pride. GOD DOES NOT DISCRIMINATE BASED ON COLOR OF SKIN. When a prophet says that God did require discrimination against people because of the color of their skin I am POSITIVE that is a false prophet.
The 'Revelation' of 1978 drove a nail into the heart of the LDS.
That was the day they had to admit that they had been based on a Racist premise from the beginning.
Saying that the LDS is not and was not Racists is ridiculous (and very dishonest) since Brigham Young's (your 2nd 'Prophet') own words condemn Blacks in terms that make me sick.
Racism is a spreading disease plaguing the earth, I have learned allot about Religion and Racism, and it's sad to see they go hand and hand, Jesus Christ is not a Religion, separating people was not and is not HIS way, HE said, And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12:30-31)
1 Nephi 12:23 And it came to pass that I beheld, after they had dwindled in unbelief they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations.
2 Nephi 5:21(b) that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. (truncated for space...you can read the entire 'Scripture' for yourselves)
Moves were made when membership started dropping to get Filipino and Asian people into the "Church" but they were only cosmetic changes to meet a standard of Political Correctness.
The core Doctrines regarding Brown and Black skin remain a Prophetical pronouncement.
The LDS is as Racist now as it was in Smith's & Young's day.
Why?...because it is hard wired into the Doctrines of the LDS.
the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race – that they should be the “servant of servants;” and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree. How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, ~Brigham Young~JoD 7 (October 9, 1859) [p.291]
@tjblyden Is that what the LDS is telling new Converts these days? It figures since the only new Converts come from places where the skin is Brown. The LDS flip-flopped again? Instead of black (or brown) skin Cain had Leprosy? Leave it to Mormons to change the words, again. Anything to get more Members is OK with them, even lying. They have been doing that since 1830. So it's Lepers who could not hold the Priesthood until 1978? Well, isn't that a hoot? Satan wins again in the LDS.
“You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, un- comely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind" ~Brigham Young~ JoD 7:290-291 (October 9, 1859)
“..Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.” ~Brigham Young~ JoD: vol.10 p. 110: (March 8, 1863)
Are Black people turning White in the Temple? Why isn't MSNBC or CNN reporting this? It should be in the Deseret News. Why haven't the Mormons posted a video of it happening? My Goodness! It's an LDS core Doctrine. White and Delightsome when the Curse is removed....right? OK..I want to see it happen. THAT will convince me. The moment I see that I will start singing "Praise to the Man". I am an Alto but I can also sing some Tenor. Looking forward to it. I don't get to show off my voice often.
YOU GO SHWAN!! MAN!!!!! i LOVE THIS MAN, MAY THE LORD BLESS HIM ALWAYS, MAY THE LORD KEEP HIM, GIVE HIM STRAINGTH, GIVE HIM LOVE, GIVE HIM PEACE, GIVE HIM KNOWLEDGE, GIVE HIM EVERYTHING HE NEEDS TO GET PEOPLE OUT OF THAT CULT, AND GIVE JESUS THE GLORY AND PRAISE, NOT JOSEPH THE PRAISE, TO JESUS THE PRAISE. ALLELUYA TO THE LAMB OF THE LIVING GOD. AMEN AMEN AMEN
When informed that a black Mormon in Massachusetts had married a white woman, Brigham Young told the apostlesin December 1847 that he would have both of them killed 'if they were far away from the Gentiles.'"(The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power, Vol. 2, pages 246-247)... YEAH RIGHT? THEY ARE NOT RACIST.!!! AHA!!!
Thus Lucifer became the devil and his followers the demons, sent to this world they would forever be denied bodies of flesh and bones, those who remain neutral in the battle were curse 2 b born with dark skin. This is the explanation for the Negro race in Mormonism. (Joseph Smith) Had I anything to do with the Negro, Iwould confine them by strict law to their own species...”Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., January 2, 1845, History of the Church, v. 5, pp. 21-218.
@USAConservative2012 Also, my older son served an LDS mission several years ago and found it very rewarding. He is one of the most honest persons you'd ever meet. He wouldn't have used any "tricks" to convert anybody. He'd laugh if I showed him this comment! In any case, I find that the church answers my questions about life, and gives us a set of gospel principles to live by. It really does help us learn and grow spiritually.
@USAConservative2012 Also, just because this Shawn person (whoever he is!) has been a Mormon longer than me doesn't make him right. It doesn't make ME right, either. All I know is that it is up to each individual to study, ponder and pray to God to ask if the church is true. I did that over 30 years ago. I cannot imagine being a member of any other church! Obviously Shawn didn't get the same answer or he rejected it or whatever--I don't know his circumstances.
@USAConservative2012 The missionaries NEVER used any "tricks" to convert me. As I said, I studied and investigated the church all on my own, long before ever contacting any missionaries! I probably would not have answered the door if missionaries had come knocking--I would have been afraid (being a woman alone) or not ready to hear their message, etc. When I was finally ready to join the church, I contacted THEM! They were shocked! LOL.
Sorry Shawn. I always enjoy your insight but (at 8:23) you call Aaronic priests "white&jewish." It's a minor point to me. I'm not white or Hebrew, just a Christ-loving gentile - so I dont have a stake in the matter. However, Levites were neither white nor Jewish. There were no white in the Levantine area 3,500 years ago.. least of all a people who are ethnic-Iraqi (Ur of Chaldees) Syrian (Haran of Ashur), and Khmeti (North African). Levites are not Yehudite "jew" they are both N&South Kingdom
Okay, Mr. Testrkriftene, I think I've posted enough "rebuttals" that you should have seen the light by now, and will immediately take down all your videos in shame and embarrassment. Haha!! Yeah right. Anyway, I never even HEARD of you until recently, on YouTube. I still can't believe YouTube allows these videos--they are so offensive and hurtful. If you want to know about Mormons, you should go to MORMONS, not somebody like this! Sigh....
If you wanted to find out the truth about Bernie Maddoff (his theft of billions), would you go to Bernie to get the truth? I don't think so. You'd go to the people he defrauded--the victims.
If you wanted to know about Hitler's attrocities would you ask the Nazis? NOPE! You'd ask his victims.
Same here. Asking Mormons about Mormonism is akin to asking a Ford Dealer about Fords. Your BOUND to get a whitewashed story--a BIASED view. Better to ask FORMER Ford owners!!
@42apostate Well all I know is that as a Mormon, I sure know alot more about the church than nonmembers, especially those who post all these crazy, untrue things on the Internet! It's just unbelievable the things people say and what they actually believe! They hear things taken out of context, distorted, misinterpreted, etc. and then things get blown all out of proportion. It's scary. People really need to learn the truth before saying the things they do.
@42apostate And also, you know as a Mormon that you have to have the Holy Spirit, otherwise you're never going to believe and understand the doctrines of the Church. It is up to each individual to study, ponder and pray, and ask God if the Book of Mormon is true. When you get that conviction, that testimony, and as your testimony grows, you will also grow in understanding, and things will fall into place. But it won't happen when people set out to put down the church.
A Catholic couldn't have said this any better in defense of HIS church--or a Baptist or a Born Again or Evangelical.
I've read the claims of several Mormons (and other denoms) that they joined (whatever church) as they were attempting to "tear down" that church. It WILL happen, tho, with the blinders snuggly in place.
General statements and ZERO facts, cindy.
Answer the question above: "What EXACTLY did any of us say that was not true re Mormonism, and let's discuss it?
I know it's not something too highly revered in the LDS church (even tho LDS have been the beneficiaries of that freedom) and wouldn't have become rich and famous without that right. Sigh...
Oh, and then he's got this thing up there about Mormonism meeting "Biblical Christianity." Oh brother. Here Mormons are as Christian as you can get! I wouldn't have joined this church otherwise! I know alot of this has to do with INTERPRETATION, how you interpret the Bible, etc. But we totally follow the Bible and use it all the time! And we have additional scripture that is a companion to the Bible, that really helps shed light on it! Mormons ARE Christians. (Like this is gonna help, lol.)
As a former Mormon, I kinda don't agree with the "LDS are not Christian" thing. HOWEVER, your LDS based reliance on the Bible is a bit uninformed. Read your own Article of Faith # 8 which states in part, "...we believe the Bible to be the word of God" which is fine as far as it goes. Trouble is, most LDS don't read the whole sentence.that says "...AS FAR AS IT IS TRANSLATED CORRECTLY". Think about it.
Who do you suppose are the ONLY ones that get to "translate" it correctly?
@42apostate What??? Of COURSE Mormons know the part about "as far as it is translated correctly"!!! That's one of the first things I learned about the LDS church all those years ago when I was investigating it, and we have discussed that a million times in church! We all know about that and understand it! It's just so clear! I can't believe that if you were a Mormon you don't understand this.
Did you bother to read ALL that I said above? They may read the whole verse but, apparently they don't bother to THINK about it. It's a rather nice position to be in where you LDS get to pick and choose what Biblical verse applies to Mormonism and discard those that contradict. All this based on UNPROVEN CLAIMS of authority to do so.
@42apostate So I'm reading your profile. It was interesting, your story about dropping out of the church. I can't believe your family thought you'd become a depraved drug-addict, etc. Lol. Of course that USUALLY doesn't happen when people drop out of the church! But come on! I know there are things in the church that we will just never know or understand. It isn't perfect. Not the people, either. But can you honestly picture yourself a member of any other church? I sure couldn't!
I can't either, and I've looked at a few. I am of the opinion that a "true church of Christ does not exist in this reality, just as Joseph said, that all other churches were "corrupt" and "abominable" and the "whore of the earth.
I merely added one more church to Joseph's list...HIS!
A "church" is not necessary, IMO--especially not one that is a tax exempt corporation as many are, including LDS, Inc.
I didn't say that my family "thought" I had become "depraved and addicted"! That's what they (and most Mormons) EXPECT to happen to apostates. Remember, I was LDS, and I recall being told/taught that was the road ALL apostates were on. I have an ongoing relationship with my family and they KNOW I haven't gone there--much to their pride-filled chagrin.
@NewWorldOrder8900 When you say that you bet a majority if Mormons don't even look at their doctrine or their scriptures, it just PROVES to me that you don't know what you are talking about. Have you ever been to an LDS church? Are you friends with any Mormons? I've been a member for over 30 years, and the people in my church are soooo spiritual, kind, etc. They read the scriptures all the time! It is GOOD they have a testimony! That isn't a "sad" thing! I find that sooo offensive!
You're the one that said earlier that the length of time in the church meant nothing--yet here you are bringing up your 30 year stint in the LDS Ch. as if it meant something??!?!?!
Either it does or it doesn't!! Which is it? If it doesn't, why are you bringing it up AGAIN??
If it DOES mean something, just remember that Shawn and I have BOTH logged in more LDS years than you have--Shawn with 40+ and me with 50 +.
You're a newby! Your brainwashing has JUST BEGUN!!
@USAConservative2012 I'm a convert to the LDS church and I would NOT join a racist church. As I've said before, there are black Mormons on YouTube who have explained why the church isn't racist, how they don't not feel inferior in any way, etc. I know that on the surface it "sounds" racist, but it is not. PLEASE take the time to learn the truth. Again, I would NEVER join a "racist" church!
That is merely a testament to the nefarious nature of the LDS Church. They snag you by whitewashing the OBVIOUS racist nature of LDS, Inc. history (and current LDS "scripture") and sell you a bill of goods. It's called "DENIAL"!--and used in MANY areas of LDS doctrine/policy--ie., polygamy, paying a FEE to get "exaltation", Smith's denial til death of his lies re: his polygamy, his shooting of 3 mobbers at Carthage,
BY's threats against interracial marriages, etc., etc.
@42apostate You talk about things nefarious. Have you ever thought that for a moment, you might be under the power and influence of satan in your attack of things good? Have you ever thought that it may be you? I do consider these things, but the Holy Ghost lets me know exactly where the truth is, and it is not with you, that is for sure. You keep distorting the truth, and it is because you are a FORMER mormon, an angry apostate, unhappy to just move along, but must continue to defame.
You'd LOVE it if I WERE under his influence. But then that's what the Olden Day Pharisees said of Jesus.
That sort of disjointed, mentally-challenged thinking seems to run in the DNA of ALL Pharisees like yourself, MAM. Get back on your meds you sycophant!
@NewWorldOrder8900 As I was saying, I learned as much as I could about the LDS church. I was really intrigued by The Word of Wisdom, how Mormons don't use alcohol, tea or coffee, etc. I had to know what was behind these beliefs! I read lots of anti-Mormon stuff as well--and people even SENT me anti-Mormon literature! But the more I read, the more I knew I had to join the church. I couldn't be happy in any other church. And Mormons ARE as Christian as you can get! More Christian than any other!
Did you come to this conclusion by the fact that Mormonism withheld the Penishood from the black men for 158 years? That's REAL CHRISTIANITY to you? OR was it the LDS attempt to deny the right to marry to 10% of the Am. population that happened to be gay? Is THAT real Christianity to you? Maybe it was Joseph's marriages to other men's wives and little girls that convinced you of the rightness of the LDS version of Christianity? Which was it?
Well, then, maybe it was the Mountain Meadows Massacre that convinced you of LDS Christianity? If not it COULD be you were convinced by Joseph's failed bank fiasco in Ohio where many members BELIEVED Joseph's promise that all contributors would become RICH! It FAILED!--with many MOrmons (and some non-LDS) losing all they had. Maybe it was Joseph's decision to tear down the Expositor Newspaper? That's a Christian ideal--preventing freedom of speech!
Then again it may have been Brigham's teaching against interracial marriages. THAT'S a GREAT Christian principle there! Or maybe it was the fact that a 2bit con man by the name of Mark Hoffman duped, ABSOLUTELY DUPED, 2 high ranking LDS apostles, INSPIRED apostles, into buying his fraudulent documents for 10's of thousands of sacred LDS dollars? If I were investigating Mormonism, THAT alone would have convinced me to join that rogue band of crazy Christians...
@NewWorldOrder8900 Oh, and as far as Mormonism not being Christian, nothing could be farther from the truth. I remember before I began investigating the church, I had no idea what Mormons were like. Were they like the Amish, riding buggies, long dresses, no makeup? Did they believe in Christ? I literally had no clue. But I remembered the Osmonds on TV, how they were Mormons, and I thought, "They aren't like the Amish." So I learned as much as I could aobut the church.
@NewWorldOrder8900 Oh brother. You know, I'm a convert to the LDS church, and I know that this church is not racist. I would NOT have joined a racist church. There are black Mormons on YouTube who have made videos explaining why the church is not racist. Please learn the truth! And as far as the majority not eve looking at doctrine or scriptures, that is SO FAR FROM THE TRUTH! Oh this makes me so mad. We read the scriptures all the time!! That's what the church is all about!!
I'm a convert to the LDS church and find that it answers my questions about life, and gives us a set of gospel principles to live by. It is not "racist." I would not join a racist church. There are black Mormons on YouTube who explain why the church is not racist. I wish people would do more research before posting such negative things about the LDS church. I can't believe these videos are even allowed! It is so offensive.
@anonazero I read all that "crazy contradictory" stuff years ago when I was first investigating the church! People SENT me anti-Mormon stuff! I've read it since then, too!
@cindybin2001 oh so you're cool with joseph smith saying that he's better than Jesus because Jesus let the church fall apart and joseph smith put it all back together? so you're cool with joseph smith and his multitude of wives, his hypocrisy about alchohol, him being tried and convicted of being a conman, and him supposedly getting 17th century english from 600BC golden tablets?
if you're cool with all of that then by all means... but i doubt you are.
@anonazero I've read all this stuff before...people twist things around, take them out of context, etc. And of course we don't know ALL the answers. And about him using alcohol, that was in the early days of the church, things have changed since then. The point is that we have the Word of Wisdom now, which is a good thing. It's one of the things that attracted me to the church!
@cindybin2001 the problem with what you just said is that you CAN'T take it out of context when a guy says he's better than JESUS. are you kidding me? wake up dude.
@cindybin2001 joseph smith thought he was. bragging about restoring the church that Jesus supposedly couldn't keep together... how about telling people the lie that they can become like God gods themselves?
thats the same thing the devil pushed in genesis 3:5. BTW the devil isn't King Jesus' brother no matter what fairy tale you've been told.
@anonazero He never said he was better than Jesus. You are lying about this. The whole statement was about keeping a church together. I might say, although I won't, that I play the piano much better than Jesus ever did, and I would be right, because HE NEVER HAD A PIANO in old Jerusalem, because it wasn't even INVENTED yet #LOL Get it?
So now are you going to say that I think I am better than Jesus? That's what you do to Joseph Smith, and its nonsense.
@anonazero That's just nonsense! Joseph Smith never said that, your are projecting. Joseph Smith said the truth. He did keep a church together, and Jesus, for whatever purpose, did not. Not that Jesus couldn't have, but he was going to have to keep feeding thousands of people to pull that off, and Jesus chose not to do that, because of His up and coming atonement and sacrifice which had to be done. Hence telling Peter to put away the sword and let it unfold. DIFFERENT SITUATION altogether.
@anonazero No, Jesus just didn't FORCE his church to stay. The wickedness of the people at that time destroyed the church and killed the prophets and apostles. There shall come a FALLING AWAY first before the return of Jesus Christ. that's biblical, that's New testament and I encourage you to look it up.
@mormonanswerman you know nothing of the promises of God if you think for a moment that His church can "fall away". read ezekial 36:25-27. here's the cliff's notes: i will give you a new heart, make you my people, and make you walk in my statutes.
thats THE WHOLE POINT OF THE GOSPEL. you can't DO it on your own, man. you're a failure just like the rest of us, thats why God came down to die under the penalty of your failure/rebellion in order that you can trust in that work and be saved.
@anonazero The Lord DID give me a new heart. Why do you think that I don't have this new heart, and that only people who basically do nothing get the new heart? I do good things (try to) because of this heart the Lord gave me, and so I am feeling I need to do more and help more. The Lord knows that many of us are lazy however, and slothful however, and it will not bode well for such a person. Our hearts had better not be overcome by laziness and distractions.
@mormonanswerman because A. there is no doctrine of regeneration in mormonism only exaltation of sinful men to godhood. and B. because you have no understanding of what it means to be saved because you don't even realize what the christian has been saved from.
@mormonanswerman okay, you want new testament? John 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. i could give you scripture all day long but all you'll do is find a way to twist it to suit a conman's goals.
@anonazero It seems the only difference between us is that you are rejecting some of the truth that I have embraced. I do know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of Jesus Christ and that Jesus Christ did restore his priesthood first and then his Church on the earth. I also have come to know that the Book of Mormon is the word of God as well as the Bible.
@USAConservative2012 A person's OPINION is not a binding doctrine. You guys do not understand what a prophet of God is, apparently, or an apostle. Peter was an apostle of Jesus Christ when he drew his sword and cut of the ear of the enemy of Christ, and was chastized by Christ who said "get thee behind me satan" and he also denied the Christ three times. You guys don't get excited about any of that, but you get excited that a "racist" comment was made in a culture where things were different
@burtontoker Then why are we so happy? You need to look beyond your prejudices and consider the happy state in which these people live, and for those that have families, how great of a thing that is... not that we are perfect, because we are not, and have lots of problems like everyone else, and problems seem to go with really good people (test?), but the way we deal with them is to be happy and praise God and seek for harmony at home despite it all. Read the scriptures, sing, etc. We do.
@mormonanswerman Sure, you can be a mormon and be happy, but you'll be even more happy if you know the true gospel. the book of mormon has nothing to do with the bible, all you need is the bible not some man-made book by a false prophet who practiced polygamy and who molested children. maybe you should learn more about your so called "prophet" of god, he was nothing more than a con-artist
@burtontoker Now see, when you say things like, "false prophet who practice polygamy and who molested children", it only proves to us Mormons that you don't understand. That is just soooo distorted. I'm a convert to the LDS church and I know I had many questions when I was first investigating the church, but I took time to find the answers. Things are not always as they seem--I know you hear all this "wacky" stuff, but please learn the truth. Thanks.
@burtontoker Are you a troll or what? Are you just saying this stuff to get people riled up? If so, then I'll ignore you. But honestly! It's just so rude and offensive. First of all, I can't believe YouTube allows these mean videos about Mormons. It's hurtful and offensive. But then all these people BELIEVE these crazy things about the church, and it's so infuriating! Anyway, I'm a convert to the LDS church and know that I could never be a member of any other church.
@cindybin2001 thats pretty fuckin sad than, damn youre caged in your own mind. maybe when you die youll realize you were believing in false doctrine. joseph smith was a fraud. can you answer this simple question, where in the bible does it say its ok to have multiple wives and molest young girls? because thats what joseph smith did, please get educated. you know nothing about your own false evil religion, i pray you find the light and get out of the darkening trap youre falling into
@burtontoker Oh that's right, use the f-word. Do you realize there are ladies on the Internet? Do you realize I am a lady? Do you talk this way in real life?? Would you say that word to me if we were in the same room? Anyway, PLEASE watch your language. And then of course you just put me down, even though I tried to HELP you. I tried to nicely explain why the church is true, how it helps us, etc. and it did NO GOOD AT ALL. Figures. Man you people drive me nuts. Why do I even try???
@cindybin2001 You mormons always dodge the most obvious questions when the other person is right. Instead of responding to my question, you babble on about how I swore. It's the internet, get over it you crazy mormon. Please answer my question: where in the bible does it say its ok to have multiple wives and molest young girls? Because thats what joseph smith did, your "prophet of god."
@burtontoker Either that, or you are a troll and you are saying these things JUST to upset me and other Mormons. Is that it?? You're saying all these wacky things and you know it. So anyway, if you're a troll I'll ignore you. But if you're not, well then I'll say to you what you said to me (without the profanity) that it is "sad." Either way, why are you doing this? Why do you believe all this crazy stuff about Mormons that isn't true? Why don't you try to learn the truth?
@burtontoker You'll pray? I don't think I want anyone praying for me or anyone else who is dropping F BOMBS in a most unchristian way. You have no idea of what is good in this world. It is you that sadly lives in the dark world of F Bombs and lies about Joseph Smith. So wrong on all of that.
@mormonanswerman hahahahah, lies about joseph smith? please answer these simple questions: where is it ok to molest children in the bible, where is it ok to have multiple wives, and where in the bible does it say we have a "pre-life" or a soul before earth was made? your mormon religion is founded by a crook and is full of crap. you have no defense, all you can reply to is my swearing, you're pretty arrogant man. really, do some research into your own religion its a bunch of BS
@burtontoker No, you need to first control yourSELF before I need to try and address your accusations about a prophet of God you never knew and only believe all of the lies said about him... you have a personal problem, a swearing problem, a darkened mind that thinks these kind of things are OK because you are on the "internet" ...so I ask you a question first: Is it OK to use F Bombs in communications with others? Is that Christian? And you are trying to SCHOOL others on Christianity?
@mormonanswerman Ok I apologize I shouldn't have said that. Its frustrating to see someone believe in something so obviously false and made up. Tell me where in the BIBLE it says there are different levels of heaven, and where in the bible it says there is a pre-existence before earth. Tell me where it says it is ok to have 12 year old wives, and where it is ok to have more than one wife. If you can answer those questions I'll believe your moromon nonsense.
@burtontoker Paul talked of three heavens in 1 Coriinthians 15. Jeremiah 1:5 establishes that the Lord knew Jeremiah BEFORE he was in the womb. Sons of God shouting for JOY before the foundations of the world were laid. I invite you to go to the church's website LDS ORG and get into the scriptures there. Click on TOPICAL GUIDE and click on PREMORTAL EXISTENCE and you will get all the scriptures you could possibly want that will SUPPORT this truth, that we lived before we were born here.
@burtontoker Apology accepted, I just want you to be consistent. I want everyone to be consistent.
The Bible does NOT talk about age limits for marriage. You are not going to get that from the Canon. But it seems you are projecting a 21st century CULTURE standard onto the 1800's and that's just not working for me. Things were much different then and you know this. Saloons, wild wild west, gold mining, cowboys and indians fighting it out. SLAVERY. Witch huntings/burnings. Stoopidity too
@mormonanswerman Where does the BIBLE, word of God, say that there is a pre-existence before earth? Where does it say there are different levels of heaven? Man, you're just believing a bunch of nonsense garbage. You aren't open minded, there are videos like this showing how corrupt your religion is, yet you still go "oh no its right its right I know it I feel it!" You believe Mormonism because you were brainwashed since a child, don't you see it? It's simple, not very hard to understand.
@burtontoker You are young, only 20. It is YOU that are much more susceptible to the idea of being brainwashed and not having had adequate time to free yourself of it. I think a 52 year old person such as myself, has had plenty to time to choose what I actually wanted in life, and I have done that a long long time ago. I get "brainwashed" by the Lord everytime I pray and get answers and assurance and peace from the Holy Ghost. That's not some TV Preacher guy! Its the real thing.
@mormonanswerman So old, but such a fool. I'm younger than you with twice the wisdom. I hope you quit being so ignorant and think for yourself, you really believe Jesus Christ thinks the "Book Of Mormon" is true? What a load of crap. You only need The Bible and Christ, not some book inspired by a false prophet.
Your job as a Mormon/Christian (as I remember) is to forgive and not be judgemental. It's a clear demonstration of desperation on your part to focus on things OTHER THAN the subject--a biblical reference that would allow Joseph to marry multiple women and women already married to living men, as well as marrying little girls.
It's OBVIOUS you CAN'T answer, mr answerman!--so you detract and DISTRACT from the subject so that you feel that you don't HAVE to answer. Good ploy...
@42apostate No, I think that if F BOMBS become the conversation, then its time to first address THAT, rather then think we are some kind of "same page" as Christians. Real Christians don't use the F Bomb and curse and swear vulgar speech. Even Jesus said "swear not at all." It doesn't take much of a "judge" to know the Sermon on the Mount and other teachings of Jesus, and when they are being followed or not.
Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that THE SAINTS SHALL JUDGE THE WORLD?
Doesn't accusing someone, falsely, of sexual sin or other sins, WITH ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF (even WITH proof and WITH evidence) fall into that category of "F-Bombs and vulgarity"??--especially in light of Christ's plea that we be non-judgemental and hypocritical? Don't you think false accusations (or ANY accusations) made toward any of God's children is somewhat offensive to Jesus Christ? If it is, if it MIGHT be, why do it?
@42apostate Its one thing to actually accuse someone, and another thing altogether to merely suggest the possibility. FYI, you slander the whole church priesthood on the online porn in Utah "issue," and you falsely ACCUSE the men of the CHURCH in doing that, and I throw a little bit back your way and you are offended at this? I'm calling it a little thin-skinned.
I find it instructive to let people taste their own medicine once in a while. Maybe it is just me, but you dish out a LOT.
What I have are the PROOFS that lead to a natural conclusion. YOU on the other hand, just spew your tripe WITH NO PROOFS!--in an attempt to besmerch someones character just to do a "one-upsmanship" to try to gain the advantage in an argument that you are CLEARLY LOSING, and can't possibly win. What you're doing is COWARDLY--hiding behind your monitor and throwing out random accusations.
BIG DIFFERENCE, MAM!! It's a diffrerence found in the INTENT!
I'm aware of Cor 6:2. But you are making a HUGE supposition that YOU are one of those "saints" Paul mentioned--AND are making a pre-emptive strike into accusations where you have NO RIGHT to tread--especially since YOU are no more perfect and informed than others. You simply THINK you are.
You're skating a bit too close to the superior and accusatory attitudes of the Pharisees that brought the woman to the well. The way Christ handled the woman should be an example to you.
THE GUY GOT IT RIGHT. There are no "white" people on the face of the earth but shades of brown. He was right. God IS white, however. He is so white as to be a shining bright white, as hot as the noon day sun.
And you "know" this HOW?--via your exclusive pipe-line to god? You are no better informed that your Christian or Muslim brothers and sisters. Until you come to realize this you'll always be a Pharisaic entity, ever learning and never able to come into knowledge, ever preaching yet never practicing the "preach".
The Book of Mormon ("the most correct book on the face of the earth") DOES make the diferentiation betwn the
"WHITE and delightsome" Nephites (the more blessed of the 2 races), and the dirty, filthy, "LOATHSOME" and degraded Lamanites. Are you trying to RE-WRITE Mormonism to, now, make it seem more politically correct?
@42apostate Yes, we know what the Book of Mormon says. But please try to learn the truth before you put down the church. Remember, there are black Mormons on YouTube who will tell you the church is not racist, that they do not feel inferior in any way, etc. I would NOT join a racist church. I know that this "sounds" racist on the surface, but it is NOT. It just drives me nuts that so many people think Mormons are racist! Nothing could be farther from the truth!
I know. I've heard their "testimonies". What YOU have to realize is that there are ALSO blacks on YT who testify to the racist nature of the LDS Church--past AND present. However, it's not a matter of opinion. Your LDS history and documentation (as well as some anecdotal evidence) all conspire to reveal the truth of the matter--LDS, Inc is as racist now as ever--to wit: your Book of Mormon STILL contains the words that PROVE it's racism--the word "pure" notwithstanding!
@42apostate Yes, I know there are blacks who say just the opposite of what the other blacks say. That's too bad. It saddens me, because I know the LDS church is not racist. I've known blacks in the church who understand that totally, and don't feel inferior in any way. The LDS church offers more spiritually for blacks than any other church!
Please explain how blacks get more, spiritually, out of the LDS church than other churches. I'm sure you've done the research that clearly shows this to be true. Mind sharing that research with us? Or is this just a "feeling"--like all the other "facts" you've shared? Millions of children around the world have the "feeling" that Santa will really visit them and leave wonderful presents. Does this mean that Santa really exists? Why not? Millions of kids "feel" he does...
@42apostate That Santa argument sounds a lot like what ATHEISTS use to tear down the faith of others.
Fact is, Santa may be fictional, but the presents coming on Christmas morning are very real, and to the kids, it is real and the presents really did come.
You fault others on their belief in things that are VERY REAL to them, real feelings, real help, real blessings, real happiness, and you get all hung up because we can't agree on what God exactly is, because... WE CAN'T SEE HIM! Surprise.
Your false inuendo about "atheists" didn't escape me. I'll simply ignore your ignorance.
NO! Santa IS fictional--not "MAY be"!
AsK ANY 5 year old if they feel that Santa is a REAL GUY. You'll get the SAME level of surety as most of those adults who "believe" with no evidence. The "real" blessings, help and happiness you THINK you have is no more "real" than the 5 yr old's "happiness, help and blessings (presents)" at HIS contemplation of Santa's reality.
Joseph Smith "got all hung up" about all those other "abominable" churches and their "corrupt" ministers and beliefs. Yet you don't bat an eye at HIS hang-up?! What makes you think that the feelings and beliefs of Catholics are not as "REAL" as yours?? Yet your inspired leaders have bad-mouthed Catholic doctrine since the begining. If YOU feel bad about having your beliefs cross-examined, do you suppose Catholics should NOT feel offended by the LDS anti-Catholic diatribe?
@42apostate Oh, and you sound pretty convincing and sure of yourself when you tell me that the church is racist! I guess I better tell my Bishop that "42apostate" from the Internet is SURE that we are racist. He'll pass it along to the other higher-ups, and then the entire church will disband in shame and embarrassment, because honestly, we had NO IDEA! We had never heard this before! We always thought everybody loved us and understood us! Oh well. It was nice while it lasted all those years.
Is it possible for you to deal with the issue rather than making inane remarks? Although, that is EXACTLY what precipitated the change in Church policy re: polygamy AND it's racism--LDS, Inc CAVED IN to the complaints of non-members as well as it's OWN people.
@42apostate I'm not patronizing you! I told you what I feel! And as far as "inane remarks"??? What??? I can't believe you were a Mormon and saying these things to me when I'm trying to be so heartfelt and sincere and trying to help you! I see it didn't do any good! Man this is frustrating. Why do I even bother? I try to help people, and they take things wrong. Sorry I said anything.
I have an excellent bull sh*t detector nowadays that just wnt off on your "heartfelt and sincere" and trying to help, malarky. It is WE who are trying to help YOU! And WE are saying "I see it didn't do any good". I try to help people stuck in a destructive cult and look at the thanks I get!?!?
"Sorry I said anything"??
OOPS! There went the BS detector again.
We've shown several CLEAR evidences (there are MANY OTHERS) of the fraud of Mormonism, and you turn a blind eye?
@42apostate Oh my gosh! You used profanity?? And here I thought you were nice! I was out driving this morning thinking about you, and your family, and thinking about how we might be able to have a nice conversation, etc. and this is what you are like?? I can't believe it!!! Wow, you really HAVE changed. This is unbelievable, it really is. Now I really feel I cannot even talk to you, if this is what you are going to be like. Sorry. I really wish you the best. Take care.
All your doing here is LOOKING for an excuse to bail out on answering my questions and statements. If it wasn't the "BS" thing you'd be certain to find something else to get offended about--ANY quasi-excuse will do. Right?
Now answer the above question asked 3 days ago: What did any LDS critic say that was not true? Let's try sticking to THAT subject instead of your need for personal attack.
Google for "Sonja Johnson". Sonja was an LDS lady in the 70's who dared oppose the antiquated ideas of the old codgers in SLC and was seen as a brave voice among LDS women. She was EXED! (The ERA passed--inspite of LDS opposition.) Rather than deal with her issues, they did what they ALWAYS do with members who challenge LDS policies. They used STRONG ARM TACTICS. What happened to "Free Agency" over Satan's tactics of FORCE??
@42apostate You act as if external forces in the world never had an influence on the people of God.
Did you ever read the story of Moses and the Exodus? Do you think that Pharoh exerted an influence on letting the Lord's people go? Did the Lord respect Pharoh? Why didn't the Lord just send a LIGHTNING BOLT to kill the man who dared to challenge his prophet Moses??? Moses was no different than Joseph. Did Moses CAVE to Pharoh #LOL ??
YET, you require LDS prophets a different standard.
That what happens when you ASSUME to know what I think!!--no doubt, under the influence of the "spirit", right?
Adopting the skewed idea that LDS profits n postles compare IN ANY WAY to "Moses" is about as silly as a ZEALOT can get--like comparing water to oil. The ONLY similarity is that they ALL contain DRIPS!
Gods Word, the Bible, declared Moses a Prophet. Today's LDS pretenders are SELF-PROCLAIMED
@42apostate This is really bugging me, knowing you were so active in the church and are so against it now. Come on!! You KNOW all the crazy things people say about Mormons, and how they misinterpret things, etc. Do you REALLY think there would be ANY blacks in the church if we were so mean and cruel to them? You know that the LDS church offers more spiritually for blacks than any other church! How could you be a member of any other church knowing what you know?
Just because they are black does not make them immune to gullibility. I don't think LDS are "mean and cruel" to their black members. They just don't tell them of their historical racism.
Am I to believe in every wild religious claim that comes down the pike? If not, why believe Mormon claims in particular?
And where in scripture did you find Yeranus and Puto?
It's NOT the word "Kolob" that's strange...
It's the LDS/PGoGP concept that Kolob is the HUB of the Cosmos--that all power eminates from this single star that keeps ALL other stars and planets in their rotations and orbits.
THAT'S the foolishness of it!
(You KNEW that, but just wanted to try to derail the subject to something else--as USUAL!)
@42apostate I am still amazed that you not only apostacized, but you also took your whole family down that road with you. Name removals and everything. No wonder you are hardened against anything sensible that would convince you that you had made the terrible mistake you have indeed made.
inasmuch as parents have children in Zion... that teach them not to understand the doctrine of repentance, faith in Christ...and of baptism...the Holy Ghost...the sin be upon the heads of the parents.
@42apostate And also, you say you are more "anti religion" now, meaning you wouldn't join any other church? But if you WERE to join any other church, heck, all I'd have to hear is if they have "coffee hour" and I'd know it wasn't the true church! Knowing that other churches think nothing is wrong with alcohol drives me nuts! One of the things that attracted me to the LDS church all those years ago was The Word of Wisdom. How could you be in any other church knowing what you know?
Interesting how you morph "coffee" into "alcohol" in one graceful move! LOL!!
There are MUCH BETTER health codes out there than what Mormonism offers in it's WOW--as well as being much more clear and specific. For example: No legit health practitioner that I know of would EVER leave out the importance of excercize in a health regimen. It's not even addressed in the WOW!
Doctrine and Covenants 58:26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.
Uh-huh! Run to the COP-OUT verse, that covers LDS arse, when they screw up!?>!?
You repeated that rote answer like a veteran LDS apologist would! Kudos!!
(I used the same ANAL verse when I was LDS to get myself out of trouble...)
You'd think, with all the LDS blather going on about "modern-day revelation", the Mormons would have been "given" a new and improved, spirit-generated retort to replace that archaic, brain-fart of a cop-out!
@42apostate I tried posting this before but I don't think it got through. Have you and your wife read A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, by LeGrande Richards? When I was investigating the church, I had read the BOM but it didn't answer my questions as to the DOCTRINES of the church, what made it different. I found Richards' book in the library and it helped so much! If you read that, you might find it helpful!
Yes we have. I had it nearly memorized at one point on my mission. I have read more LDS books than you can count. And I bought into it. No more, tho...
@42apostate What you fail to admit, is that the whole country in the 1800's was racist in their culture. There were SLAVES in the land. That culture, that society, was corrupt, and it was the bulk of Christianity that was doing it to those blacks. You want to make a mountain out of a flat nosed mole hill from BY's statement, but you'll ignore the FACT that the Mormons had no slaves. I think you hate mormonism ONLY because you QUIT it on account of your many unrepentant sins?
It doesn't matter what the rest of the country or churches were doing or not doing. We're talking about the "ONE AND ONLY TRUE CHURCH OF GOD ON EARTH" here--the LDS Church (so they claim). IF it were truly God's church it would have been the LEADER in Emancipation and in Civil Rights actions. But since LDS view black skin as an proof of sin and depravity, they effectively told the black community "SCREW YOU"!
@42apostate Was Jesus a leader in the "civil rights" movement to liberate the Jewish people from the Roman rule? You speak nonsense if you think that this was Joseph Smith's job, to end slavery.
Joe KNEW what the right thing to do was. Trouble was he USED the abolitionist platform in order to get elected.
Jesus?
Again! We're talking about TODAY'S LDS claim of being God's RESTORED Church! The one that is to "ROLL FORTH/FILL THE EARTH"--uniting the world in peace? This is typical LDS rhetoric! ALL talk and NO ACTION! That was the LDS opportunity to step up and be counted...paraphras'g GBH's vacant words to "STAND FOR SOMETHING"!
@42apostate Why didn't Jesus end the oppression of the Jews in his day? How come Pilate was the judge of Jesus? Your logic is not holding even with biblical examples.
How DEGRADING for you--having to resort to using BIBLICAL examples!!
You seem to forget that Jesus was there for ONE REASON and ONE REASON ONLY--not to go to a Roman prison for treason. He DID teach the people to "choose ye this day whom ye shall serve". The two obvious choices were God or Caesar (the world/money-filthy lucre). He said if ye are Caesar's render unto Caesar, but if ye are God's followers, render unto God. You CAN'T DO BOTH!! CHOOSE!
Don't feel bad. ALL apologists do this, one degree or another in attempting to paint the situation a different hue that the real one presented--be it polygamy, racism, bigotry (prop-hate), 2nd class status of LDS women, Utah as the top rated porn users in America and near the top in young men suicides/teen pregnancies, etc., etc., etc.--and make excuses for this UN Christlike phenom to create the needed IMAGE!
@42apostate Second class status of LDS women?? Nothing could be farther from the truth. I'm a convert to the LDS church, I have many Mormon women friends, my daughter-in-law is active in the church, and NONE of them are "second class" at all. Mormons are not racist, either. I would never join a racist church. I'm always yelling at people on the Internet who use the n-word, etc. Please learn the truth about the church before you say all these things.
@42apostate I've been LDS for over 30 years. I'm probably older than you? (54). Anyway, you KNOW why women don't hold priesthood positions, etc. You were a Mormon! You should know all this stuff! I can't believe you are hung up on things like this! Now come on!!! You know better! Your wife should, too. As I said, I read your profile, and I made several posts to you--I hope you read them!
Sorry. You are NOT older than I am. (Lookie!! A COMPLIMENT!!)
You spared no words about women as 2nd Class LDS citizens--but did not answer as to why LDS women are NOT 2nd class. I probably won't read your posts at my channel--until you give me straight answers here.
Quit already, with the dodging and crying and complaining. How about a bit of honesty for a change...?
@42apostate I hold my wife in MUCH higher esteem than myself, that's for sure, and so do ALL of the other men I know who are in the church. They all know that we got the priesthood to SCHOOL us and help us learn how to be as good as the women naturally ARE. There is no way that you are going to say this untruth and not be corrected. What kind of experience did you have? Do you hold your wife in high esteem? Is that why you made her quit too? You confuse me.
It's your misguided (anti-Christ) assumptions that are the source of your confusion.
I told my wife that I was submitting my resignation to Greg Dodge at Member Records, SLC. SHE read my lette, and SHE ASKED ME to include her and the three kids left at home (the other 2 left LDS on their own (good kids that they are). One kid remains LDS--but ONLY because of his LDS wife, inlaws and kids, KNOWING they'd go stark-raving NUTS if he did. Nothing like a good LDS family, eh?
@42apostate I'll bet that you are from Utah and looking at the porn, on account that you don't go to church and don't care to stay morally clean from this. It's not the active mormons who are looking at the porn in Utah online, its the INactive ones, or the ones that had their names removed, and the ones that just don't believe in anything at all. Its an IMMORAL person who looks at this stuff, the kind of people who protest the moral things taught at a General Conference and shout out slogans.
The hogwash you're attempting to pass off here as legit is laughable, MAM. (Even President Monson would cringe at your words.) Yet you persist in verifying my assertion that you, MAM, are the complete, modern day, Pharisee (complete with deformed arms, caused by the incessant patting of your own back!!
I don't have any problem admiting that I am a sinner. Jesus hobnobbed with sinners--which APPALLED the Pharisees -- like you!! Why do you have a problem admitting you're a sinner too? Too far beneath you,
You need to get the understanding that skin is not skin colour, and becoming white is not becoming wite in skin colour, but becoming righteous, white is this as symbol of light and truth and righteous behaviour, nothing else ever. The cursing of skin is NOT a cursing of skin colour, but of scales of darkness, a lack of understanding. It was been misunderstood inside the church as well as outside, and needed therefore a clear change to be accepted by racist backgrunds, came in 1978.
synnell2001 1 week ago
@synnell2001 said"You need to get the understanding that skin is not skin colour"
If that is true please quote official doctrine that states that, not just your opinion that it is not skin color.
Gods1truechurchmyass 2 days ago
I feel for this as a Black man. These are tactics that many mormons use to excuse their over 130 yrs of racism and bigotry. It's become so easy to refute their arguments and if there honest with themselves, they will see Mormonism is utter bullshit.
AntonTheSpot 3 weeks ago 3
Romney was chosen by the zionist to assure the re election of their puppet, Obama.
bigpecker251 4 weeks ago
I have no racism in my home... and there never has been racism between myself or anyone else. I loved the people of Ecuador and have loved people from all races and creeds. What you fail to identify or understand is that racisim is a human condition and existed many centuries before the restored Gospel. Not Mormon Made. Existed 4 many decades into Christ's primitive church when the Saints had brought religion to the Gentiles. Jews considered themselves superior to the Gentiles and still YET do.
successlosing 1 month ago
@successlosing What you fail to understand is the Mormon prophets said GOD told them to discriminate against Black people. Sure there was racism among fallible humans, but as soon as an institution says GOD requires discrimination and therefore racism, you have errant doctrine and it is easy to detect that it is not God's church. God is the same yesterday, today and forever and never was a racist. Racism is from man not God.
Gods1truechurchmyass 1 month ago 9
@Gods1truechurchmyass - you, my friend, are an ignoramus. Although certain quotes taken out of context have raised suspicion regarding the matter, the church doctrine does not reflect it. Ignoring the racism problem being a human condition which existed many years before 1830 isn't helping your argument either.
The revelation in 1978 isn't helpful to it either since the priesthood is the power to act in God's name and it's God's to allow not of man. See also 2 Nephi 26:33 ... PLEASE!
successlosing 1 month ago
@successlosing God never discriminated against ANYONE because of the color of skin. He also does not turn skin dark because of unrighteousness. I feel very sorry for you that you believe in such a racist God. I will not listen to your lies. If that makes me an ignoramus, I wear the title with pride. GOD DOES NOT DISCRIMINATE BASED ON COLOR OF SKIN. When a prophet says that God did require discrimination against people because of the color of their skin I am POSITIVE that is a false prophet.
Gods1truechurchmyass 1 month ago 3
@successlosing
The 'Revelation' of 1978 drove a nail into the heart of the LDS.
That was the day they had to admit that they had been based on a Racist premise from the beginning.
Saying that the LDS is not and was not Racists is ridiculous (and very dishonest) since Brigham Young's (your 2nd 'Prophet') own words condemn Blacks in terms that make me sick.
ht tp://w ww.utlm. org/onlineresources/sermons_talks_interviews/brigham1852feb5_priesthoodandblacks.htm
Read that and get back to me.
hammerogod 1 month ago
Speach by Gov. Brigham Young in Joint Session of the Legeslature.
Feburary. 5th 1852
~ "It is a great blessing to the seed of Adam to have the seed of Cain for servants."
~ "I will not consent for a moment to have the Children of Cain rule me nor my Brethen. No, it is not right."
~ "a man who has has the African blood in him cannot hold one jot nor tittle of priesthood".
Read the whole thing. I DARE you.
Your "PROPHET" speaking.
FULL of hatred.
LDS Doctrine distilled down and spewed out.
hammerogod 1 month ago
Racism is a spreading disease plaguing the earth, I have learned allot about Religion and Racism, and it's sad to see they go hand and hand, Jesus Christ is not a Religion, separating people was not and is not HIS way, HE said, And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12:30-31)
GOD BLESS
KiLlMoE3 3 months ago
The things about LDS Doctrine, History, Prophetic pronouncements and Core Beliefs must be hidden from new converts.
No Mormon 'Missionary' will ever address these issue with someone they are trying to "Convert" (another way to say Get A New Member).
The LDS has never really been about Salvation.
It's always been about Membership.
The LDS quote 'Memberships' and never says a word about 'Salvations'.
They don't care about freeing people from the bondage of Sin...all they want is Good Mormons.
hammerogod 4 months ago
Comment removed
hammerogod 4 months ago
It IS in LDS Scripture:
1 Nephi 12:23 And it came to pass that I beheld, after they had dwindled in unbelief they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations.
2 Nephi 5:21(b) that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. (truncated for space...you can read the entire 'Scripture' for yourselves)
The more you read the worse it gets.
LDS Doctrine AND Scripture supports Racism.
hammerogod 4 months ago
ht tp://w ww.truthandgrace. com/Racism.html
The LDS was and is Racist at it's core.
Nothing has changed.
Moves were made when membership started dropping to get Filipino and Asian people into the "Church" but they were only cosmetic changes to meet a standard of Political Correctness.
The core Doctrines regarding Brown and Black skin remain a Prophetical pronouncement.
The LDS is as Racist now as it was in Smith's & Young's day.
Why?...because it is hard wired into the Doctrines of the LDS.
hammerogod 4 months ago
the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race – that they should be the “servant of servants;” and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree. How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, ~Brigham Young~JoD 7 (October 9, 1859) [p.291]
hammerogod 4 months ago
@hammerogod when god put the mark on cain turn leprosy
tjblyden 1 month ago
hammerogod 1 month ago
“You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, un- comely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind" ~Brigham Young~ JoD 7:290-291 (October 9, 1859)
hammerogod 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
“..Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.” ~Brigham Young~ JoD: vol.10 p. 110: (March 8, 1863)
hammerogod 4 months ago
No White Skinned People?
Ever been to Sweden?
Those people are so White they are nearly transparent.
hammerogod 4 months ago
hammerogod 4 months ago
YOU GO SHWAN!! MAN!!!!! i LOVE THIS MAN, MAY THE LORD BLESS HIM ALWAYS, MAY THE LORD KEEP HIM, GIVE HIM STRAINGTH, GIVE HIM LOVE, GIVE HIM PEACE, GIVE HIM KNOWLEDGE, GIVE HIM EVERYTHING HE NEEDS TO GET PEOPLE OUT OF THAT CULT, AND GIVE JESUS THE GLORY AND PRAISE, NOT JOSEPH THE PRAISE, TO JESUS THE PRAISE. ALLELUYA TO THE LAMB OF THE LIVING GOD. AMEN AMEN AMEN
Chinaculiacan 5 months ago
When informed that a black Mormon in Massachusetts had married a white woman, Brigham Young told the apostlesin December 1847 that he would have both of them killed 'if they were far away from the Gentiles.'"(The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power, Vol. 2, pages 246-247)... YEAH RIGHT? THEY ARE NOT RACIST.!!! AHA!!!
Chinaculiacan 5 months ago
Thus Lucifer became the devil and his followers the demons, sent to this world they would forever be denied bodies of flesh and bones, those who remain neutral in the battle were curse 2 b born with dark skin. This is the explanation for the Negro race in Mormonism. (Joseph Smith) Had I anything to do with the Negro, Iwould confine them by strict law to their own species...”Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., January 2, 1845, History of the Church, v. 5, pp. 21-218.
Chinaculiacan 5 months ago
@42apostate. You are so funny! I love it! Some people just can't handle the truth, can they? :D
80sgirlzrock 7 months ago
can we follow him on twitter?
livasdad 8 months ago
As a black person, Mormonism is disgusting trash.
MassiveFaith 8 months ago 13
@USAConservative2012 Also, my older son served an LDS mission several years ago and found it very rewarding. He is one of the most honest persons you'd ever meet. He wouldn't have used any "tricks" to convert anybody. He'd laugh if I showed him this comment! In any case, I find that the church answers my questions about life, and gives us a set of gospel principles to live by. It really does help us learn and grow spiritually.
cindybin2001 8 months ago
@USAConservative2012 Also, just because this Shawn person (whoever he is!) has been a Mormon longer than me doesn't make him right. It doesn't make ME right, either. All I know is that it is up to each individual to study, ponder and pray to God to ask if the church is true. I did that over 30 years ago. I cannot imagine being a member of any other church! Obviously Shawn didn't get the same answer or he rejected it or whatever--I don't know his circumstances.
cindybin2001 8 months ago
@USAConservative2012 The missionaries NEVER used any "tricks" to convert me. As I said, I studied and investigated the church all on my own, long before ever contacting any missionaries! I probably would not have answered the door if missionaries had come knocking--I would have been afraid (being a woman alone) or not ready to hear their message, etc. When I was finally ready to join the church, I contacted THEM! They were shocked! LOL.
cindybin2001 8 months ago
Sorry Shawn. I always enjoy your insight but (at 8:23) you call Aaronic priests "white&jewish." It's a minor point to me. I'm not white or Hebrew, just a Christ-loving gentile - so I dont have a stake in the matter. However, Levites were neither white nor Jewish. There were no white in the Levantine area 3,500 years ago.. least of all a people who are ethnic-Iraqi (Ur of Chaldees) Syrian (Haran of Ashur), and Khmeti (North African). Levites are not Yehudite "jew" they are both N&South Kingdom
KeyboardPacifist 8 months ago
Okay, Mr. Testrkriftene, I think I've posted enough "rebuttals" that you should have seen the light by now, and will immediately take down all your videos in shame and embarrassment. Haha!! Yeah right. Anyway, I never even HEARD of you until recently, on YouTube. I still can't believe YouTube allows these videos--they are so offensive and hurtful. If you want to know about Mormons, you should go to MORMONS, not somebody like this! Sigh....
cindybin2001 8 months ago
@cindybin2001
If you wanted to find out the truth about Bernie Maddoff (his theft of billions), would you go to Bernie to get the truth? I don't think so. You'd go to the people he defrauded--the victims.
If you wanted to know about Hitler's attrocities would you ask the Nazis? NOPE! You'd ask his victims.
Same here. Asking Mormons about Mormonism is akin to asking a Ford Dealer about Fords. Your BOUND to get a whitewashed story--a BIASED view. Better to ask FORMER Ford owners!!
42apostate 8 months ago
@42apostate Well all I know is that as a Mormon, I sure know alot more about the church than nonmembers, especially those who post all these crazy, untrue things on the Internet! It's just unbelievable the things people say and what they actually believe! They hear things taken out of context, distorted, misinterpreted, etc. and then things get blown all out of proportion. It's scary. People really need to learn the truth before saying the things they do.
cindybin2001 8 months ago
@cindybin2001
Shawn was a Mormon for way longer than you were, cindy. Quit bitching in generalities. BE SPECIFIC!!
What EXACTLY did Shawn or I or any other critic say that was not true and let's discuss it.
42apostate 8 months ago
@42apostate And also, you know as a Mormon that you have to have the Holy Spirit, otherwise you're never going to believe and understand the doctrines of the Church. It is up to each individual to study, ponder and pray, and ask God if the Book of Mormon is true. When you get that conviction, that testimony, and as your testimony grows, you will also grow in understanding, and things will fall into place. But it won't happen when people set out to put down the church.
cindybin2001 8 months ago
@cindybin2001
A Catholic couldn't have said this any better in defense of HIS church--or a Baptist or a Born Again or Evangelical.
I've read the claims of several Mormons (and other denoms) that they joined (whatever church) as they were attempting to "tear down" that church. It WILL happen, tho, with the blinders snuggly in place.
General statements and ZERO facts, cindy.
Answer the question above: "What EXACTLY did any of us say that was not true re Mormonism, and let's discuss it?
42apostate 8 months ago
@cindybin2001
SIGH...
It's called "freedom of speech", cindy.
I know it's not something too highly revered in the LDS church (even tho LDS have been the beneficiaries of that freedom) and wouldn't have become rich and famous without that right. Sigh...
42apostate 8 months ago
Oh, and then he's got this thing up there about Mormonism meeting "Biblical Christianity." Oh brother. Here Mormons are as Christian as you can get! I wouldn't have joined this church otherwise! I know alot of this has to do with INTERPRETATION, how you interpret the Bible, etc. But we totally follow the Bible and use it all the time! And we have additional scripture that is a companion to the Bible, that really helps shed light on it! Mormons ARE Christians. (Like this is gonna help, lol.)
cindybin2001 8 months ago
@cindybin2001
As a former Mormon, I kinda don't agree with the "LDS are not Christian" thing. HOWEVER, your LDS based reliance on the Bible is a bit uninformed. Read your own Article of Faith # 8 which states in part, "...we believe the Bible to be the word of God" which is fine as far as it goes. Trouble is, most LDS don't read the whole sentence.that says "...AS FAR AS IT IS TRANSLATED CORRECTLY". Think about it.
Who do you suppose are the ONLY ones that get to "translate" it correctly?
42apostate 8 months ago
@42apostate What??? Of COURSE Mormons know the part about "as far as it is translated correctly"!!! That's one of the first things I learned about the LDS church all those years ago when I was investigating it, and we have discussed that a million times in church! We all know about that and understand it! It's just so clear! I can't believe that if you were a Mormon you don't understand this.
cindybin2001 8 months ago
@cindybin2001
Did you bother to read ALL that I said above? They may read the whole verse but, apparently they don't bother to THINK about it. It's a rather nice position to be in where you LDS get to pick and choose what Biblical verse applies to Mormonism and discard those that contradict. All this based on UNPROVEN CLAIMS of authority to do so.
42apostate 8 months ago
@42apostate So I'm reading your profile. It was interesting, your story about dropping out of the church. I can't believe your family thought you'd become a depraved drug-addict, etc. Lol. Of course that USUALLY doesn't happen when people drop out of the church! But come on! I know there are things in the church that we will just never know or understand. It isn't perfect. Not the people, either. But can you honestly picture yourself a member of any other church? I sure couldn't!
cindybin2001 8 months ago
@cindybin2001
I can't either, and I've looked at a few. I am of the opinion that a "true church of Christ does not exist in this reality, just as Joseph said, that all other churches were "corrupt" and "abominable" and the "whore of the earth.
I merely added one more church to Joseph's list...HIS!
A "church" is not necessary, IMO--especially not one that is a tax exempt corporation as many are, including LDS, Inc.
42apostate 8 months ago
@cindybin2001
I didn't say that my family "thought" I had become "depraved and addicted"! That's what they (and most Mormons) EXPECT to happen to apostates. Remember, I was LDS, and I recall being told/taught that was the road ALL apostates were on. I have an ongoing relationship with my family and they KNOW I haven't gone there--much to their pride-filled chagrin.
42apostate 8 months ago
@NewWorldOrder8900 When you say that you bet a majority if Mormons don't even look at their doctrine or their scriptures, it just PROVES to me that you don't know what you are talking about. Have you ever been to an LDS church? Are you friends with any Mormons? I've been a member for over 30 years, and the people in my church are soooo spiritual, kind, etc. They read the scriptures all the time! It is GOOD they have a testimony! That isn't a "sad" thing! I find that sooo offensive!
cindybin2001 8 months ago
@cindybin2001
You're the one that said earlier that the length of time in the church meant nothing--yet here you are bringing up your 30 year stint in the LDS Ch. as if it meant something??!?!?!
Either it does or it doesn't!! Which is it? If it doesn't, why are you bringing it up AGAIN??
If it DOES mean something, just remember that Shawn and I have BOTH logged in more LDS years than you have--Shawn with 40+ and me with 50 +.
You're a newby! Your brainwashing has JUST BEGUN!!
42apostate 8 months ago
@USAConservative2012 I'm a convert to the LDS church and I would NOT join a racist church. As I've said before, there are black Mormons on YouTube who have explained why the church isn't racist, how they don't not feel inferior in any way, etc. I know that on the surface it "sounds" racist, but it is not. PLEASE take the time to learn the truth. Again, I would NEVER join a "racist" church!
cindybin2001 8 months ago
@cindybin2001
That is merely a testament to the nefarious nature of the LDS Church. They snag you by whitewashing the OBVIOUS racist nature of LDS, Inc. history (and current LDS "scripture") and sell you a bill of goods. It's called "DENIAL"!--and used in MANY areas of LDS doctrine/policy--ie., polygamy, paying a FEE to get "exaltation", Smith's denial til death of his lies re: his polygamy, his shooting of 3 mobbers at Carthage,
BY's threats against interracial marriages, etc., etc.
42apostate 8 months ago
@42apostate You talk about things nefarious. Have you ever thought that for a moment, you might be under the power and influence of satan in your attack of things good? Have you ever thought that it may be you? I do consider these things, but the Holy Ghost lets me know exactly where the truth is, and it is not with you, that is for sure. You keep distorting the truth, and it is because you are a FORMER mormon, an angry apostate, unhappy to just move along, but must continue to defame.
mormonanswerman 8 months ago
@mormonanswerman
You'd LOVE it if I WERE under his influence. But then that's what the Olden Day Pharisees said of Jesus.
That sort of disjointed, mentally-challenged thinking seems to run in the DNA of ALL Pharisees like yourself, MAM. Get back on your meds you sycophant!
42apostate 8 months ago
@NewWorldOrder8900 As I was saying, I learned as much as I could about the LDS church. I was really intrigued by The Word of Wisdom, how Mormons don't use alcohol, tea or coffee, etc. I had to know what was behind these beliefs! I read lots of anti-Mormon stuff as well--and people even SENT me anti-Mormon literature! But the more I read, the more I knew I had to join the church. I couldn't be happy in any other church. And Mormons ARE as Christian as you can get! More Christian than any other!
cindybin2001 8 months ago
@cindybin2001
More Christian than any other????
Did you come to this conclusion by the fact that Mormonism withheld the Penishood from the black men for 158 years? That's REAL CHRISTIANITY to you? OR was it the LDS attempt to deny the right to marry to 10% of the Am. population that happened to be gay? Is THAT real Christianity to you? Maybe it was Joseph's marriages to other men's wives and little girls that convinced you of the rightness of the LDS version of Christianity? Which was it?
42apostate 8 months ago
@cindybin2001
No? None of the above?
Well, then, maybe it was the Mountain Meadows Massacre that convinced you of LDS Christianity? If not it COULD be you were convinced by Joseph's failed bank fiasco in Ohio where many members BELIEVED Joseph's promise that all contributors would become RICH! It FAILED!--with many MOrmons (and some non-LDS) losing all they had. Maybe it was Joseph's decision to tear down the Expositor Newspaper? That's a Christian ideal--preventing freedom of speech!
42apostate 8 months ago
@cindybin2001
Then again it may have been Brigham's teaching against interracial marriages. THAT'S a GREAT Christian principle there! Or maybe it was the fact that a 2bit con man by the name of Mark Hoffman duped, ABSOLUTELY DUPED, 2 high ranking LDS apostles, INSPIRED apostles, into buying his fraudulent documents for 10's of thousands of sacred LDS dollars? If I were investigating Mormonism, THAT alone would have convinced me to join that rogue band of crazy Christians...
42apostate 8 months ago
@NewWorldOrder8900 Oh, and as far as Mormonism not being Christian, nothing could be farther from the truth. I remember before I began investigating the church, I had no idea what Mormons were like. Were they like the Amish, riding buggies, long dresses, no makeup? Did they believe in Christ? I literally had no clue. But I remembered the Osmonds on TV, how they were Mormons, and I thought, "They aren't like the Amish." So I learned as much as I could aobut the church.
cindybin2001 8 months ago
@NewWorldOrder8900 Oh brother. You know, I'm a convert to the LDS church, and I know that this church is not racist. I would NOT have joined a racist church. There are black Mormons on YouTube who have made videos explaining why the church is not racist. Please learn the truth! And as far as the majority not eve looking at doctrine or scriptures, that is SO FAR FROM THE TRUTH! Oh this makes me so mad. We read the scriptures all the time!! That's what the church is all about!!
cindybin2001 8 months ago
I'm a convert to the LDS church and find that it answers my questions about life, and gives us a set of gospel principles to live by. It is not "racist." I would not join a racist church. There are black Mormons on YouTube who explain why the church is not racist. I wish people would do more research before posting such negative things about the LDS church. I can't believe these videos are even allowed! It is so offensive.
cindybin2001 8 months ago
@cindybin2001 exactly. you're a convert. you don't know the crazy contradictory and outright heretical history that the LDS "church" is guilty of.
liars can answer questions all day long but it doesn't make it any less dangerous.
anonazero 8 months ago
@anonazero I read all that "crazy contradictory" stuff years ago when I was first investigating the church! People SENT me anti-Mormon stuff! I've read it since then, too!
cindybin2001 8 months ago
@cindybin2001 oh so you're cool with joseph smith saying that he's better than Jesus because Jesus let the church fall apart and joseph smith put it all back together? so you're cool with joseph smith and his multitude of wives, his hypocrisy about alchohol, him being tried and convicted of being a conman, and him supposedly getting 17th century english from 600BC golden tablets?
if you're cool with all of that then by all means... but i doubt you are.
anonazero 8 months ago
@anonazero I've read all this stuff before...people twist things around, take them out of context, etc. And of course we don't know ALL the answers. And about him using alcohol, that was in the early days of the church, things have changed since then. The point is that we have the Word of Wisdom now, which is a good thing. It's one of the things that attracted me to the church!
cindybin2001 8 months ago
@cindybin2001 the problem with what you just said is that you CAN'T take it out of context when a guy says he's better than JESUS. are you kidding me? wake up dude.
anonazero 8 months ago
@anonazero Better than Jesus? We don't believe anybody is better than Jesus.
cindybin2001 8 months ago
@cindybin2001 joseph smith thought he was. bragging about restoring the church that Jesus supposedly couldn't keep together... how about telling people the lie that they can become like God gods themselves?
thats the same thing the devil pushed in genesis 3:5. BTW the devil isn't King Jesus' brother no matter what fairy tale you've been told.
anonazero 8 months ago
@anonazero He never said he was better than Jesus. You are lying about this. The whole statement was about keeping a church together. I might say, although I won't, that I play the piano much better than Jesus ever did, and I would be right, because HE NEVER HAD A PIANO in old Jerusalem, because it wasn't even INVENTED yet #LOL Get it?
So now are you going to say that I think I am better than Jesus? That's what you do to Joseph Smith, and its nonsense.
mormonanswerman 8 months ago
@anonazero That's just nonsense! Joseph Smith never said that, your are projecting. Joseph Smith said the truth. He did keep a church together, and Jesus, for whatever purpose, did not. Not that Jesus couldn't have, but he was going to have to keep feeding thousands of people to pull that off, and Jesus chose not to do that, because of His up and coming atonement and sacrifice which had to be done. Hence telling Peter to put away the sword and let it unfold. DIFFERENT SITUATION altogether.
mormonanswerman 8 months ago
@mormonanswerman oh, so Jesus chose to let the church go into apostasy? really?
anonazero 8 months ago
@anonazero No, Jesus just didn't FORCE his church to stay. The wickedness of the people at that time destroyed the church and killed the prophets and apostles. There shall come a FALLING AWAY first before the return of Jesus Christ. that's biblical, that's New testament and I encourage you to look it up.
mormonanswerman 8 months ago
@mormonanswerman you know nothing of the promises of God if you think for a moment that His church can "fall away". read ezekial 36:25-27. here's the cliff's notes: i will give you a new heart, make you my people, and make you walk in my statutes.
thats THE WHOLE POINT OF THE GOSPEL. you can't DO it on your own, man. you're a failure just like the rest of us, thats why God came down to die under the penalty of your failure/rebellion in order that you can trust in that work and be saved.
anonazero 8 months ago
@anonazero The Lord DID give me a new heart. Why do you think that I don't have this new heart, and that only people who basically do nothing get the new heart? I do good things (try to) because of this heart the Lord gave me, and so I am feeling I need to do more and help more. The Lord knows that many of us are lazy however, and slothful however, and it will not bode well for such a person. Our hearts had better not be overcome by laziness and distractions.
mormonanswerman 8 months ago
@mormonanswerman because A. there is no doctrine of regeneration in mormonism only exaltation of sinful men to godhood. and B. because you have no understanding of what it means to be saved because you don't even realize what the christian has been saved from.
i'll give you a hint: it isn't the devil.
anonazero 8 months ago
@mormonanswerman okay, you want new testament? John 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. i could give you scripture all day long but all you'll do is find a way to twist it to suit a conman's goals.
anonazero 8 months ago
@anonazero It seems the only difference between us is that you are rejecting some of the truth that I have embraced. I do know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of Jesus Christ and that Jesus Christ did restore his priesthood first and then his Church on the earth. I also have come to know that the Book of Mormon is the word of God as well as the Bible.
mormonanswerman 8 months ago
@NewWorldOrder8900 keep convincing urself
mormonanswerman 9 months ago
@mormonanswerman
As YOU, MAM, will continue to DELUDE yourself...
(And THIS response is why you feel you can call yourself an "answerman"?? WOW!!)
It's time to wake up and smell the stench of the LDS fraud...
42apostate 8 months ago
@USAConservative2012 A person's OPINION is not a binding doctrine. You guys do not understand what a prophet of God is, apparently, or an apostle. Peter was an apostle of Jesus Christ when he drew his sword and cut of the ear of the enemy of Christ, and was chastized by Christ who said "get thee behind me satan" and he also denied the Christ three times. You guys don't get excited about any of that, but you get excited that a "racist" comment was made in a culture where things were different
mormonanswerman 9 months ago
i really feel bad for Mormons, come on you guys. cant you see how false and made up your religion is? its so sad that Mormons are so blind
burtontoker 9 months ago
@burtontoker Then why are we so happy? You need to look beyond your prejudices and consider the happy state in which these people live, and for those that have families, how great of a thing that is... not that we are perfect, because we are not, and have lots of problems like everyone else, and problems seem to go with really good people (test?), but the way we deal with them is to be happy and praise God and seek for harmony at home despite it all. Read the scriptures, sing, etc. We do.
mormonanswerman 9 months ago
@mormonanswerman Sure, you can be a mormon and be happy, but you'll be even more happy if you know the true gospel. the book of mormon has nothing to do with the bible, all you need is the bible not some man-made book by a false prophet who practiced polygamy and who molested children. maybe you should learn more about your so called "prophet" of god, he was nothing more than a con-artist
burtontoker 9 months ago
@burtontoker Now see, when you say things like, "false prophet who practice polygamy and who molested children", it only proves to us Mormons that you don't understand. That is just soooo distorted. I'm a convert to the LDS church and I know I had many questions when I was first investigating the church, but I took time to find the answers. Things are not always as they seem--I know you hear all this "wacky" stuff, but please learn the truth. Thanks.
cindybin2001 8 months ago
@burtontoker Are you a troll or what? Are you just saying this stuff to get people riled up? If so, then I'll ignore you. But honestly! It's just so rude and offensive. First of all, I can't believe YouTube allows these mean videos about Mormons. It's hurtful and offensive. But then all these people BELIEVE these crazy things about the church, and it's so infuriating! Anyway, I'm a convert to the LDS church and know that I could never be a member of any other church.
cindybin2001 8 months ago
@cindybin2001 thats pretty fuckin sad than, damn youre caged in your own mind. maybe when you die youll realize you were believing in false doctrine. joseph smith was a fraud. can you answer this simple question, where in the bible does it say its ok to have multiple wives and molest young girls? because thats what joseph smith did, please get educated. you know nothing about your own false evil religion, i pray you find the light and get out of the darkening trap youre falling into
burtontoker 8 months ago
@burtontoker Oh that's right, use the f-word. Do you realize there are ladies on the Internet? Do you realize I am a lady? Do you talk this way in real life?? Would you say that word to me if we were in the same room? Anyway, PLEASE watch your language. And then of course you just put me down, even though I tried to HELP you. I tried to nicely explain why the church is true, how it helps us, etc. and it did NO GOOD AT ALL. Figures. Man you people drive me nuts. Why do I even try???
cindybin2001 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@cindybin2001 You mormons always dodge the most obvious questions when the other person is right. Instead of responding to my question, you babble on about how I swore. It's the internet, get over it you crazy mormon. Please answer my question: where in the bible does it say its ok to have multiple wives and molest young girls? Because thats what joseph smith did, your "prophet of god."
burtontoker 8 months ago
@burtontoker Either that, or you are a troll and you are saying these things JUST to upset me and other Mormons. Is that it?? You're saying all these wacky things and you know it. So anyway, if you're a troll I'll ignore you. But if you're not, well then I'll say to you what you said to me (without the profanity) that it is "sad." Either way, why are you doing this? Why do you believe all this crazy stuff about Mormons that isn't true? Why don't you try to learn the truth?
cindybin2001 8 months ago
@burtontoker You'll pray? I don't think I want anyone praying for me or anyone else who is dropping F BOMBS in a most unchristian way. You have no idea of what is good in this world. It is you that sadly lives in the dark world of F Bombs and lies about Joseph Smith. So wrong on all of that.
mormonanswerman 8 months ago
@mormonanswerman hahahahah, lies about joseph smith? please answer these simple questions: where is it ok to molest children in the bible, where is it ok to have multiple wives, and where in the bible does it say we have a "pre-life" or a soul before earth was made? your mormon religion is founded by a crook and is full of crap. you have no defense, all you can reply to is my swearing, you're pretty arrogant man. really, do some research into your own religion its a bunch of BS
burtontoker 8 months ago
@burtontoker No, you need to first control yourSELF before I need to try and address your accusations about a prophet of God you never knew and only believe all of the lies said about him... you have a personal problem, a swearing problem, a darkened mind that thinks these kind of things are OK because you are on the "internet" ...so I ask you a question first: Is it OK to use F Bombs in communications with others? Is that Christian? And you are trying to SCHOOL others on Christianity?
mormonanswerman 8 months ago
@mormonanswerman Ok I apologize I shouldn't have said that. Its frustrating to see someone believe in something so obviously false and made up. Tell me where in the BIBLE it says there are different levels of heaven, and where in the bible it says there is a pre-existence before earth. Tell me where it says it is ok to have 12 year old wives, and where it is ok to have more than one wife. If you can answer those questions I'll believe your moromon nonsense.
burtontoker 8 months ago
@burtontoker Paul talked of three heavens in 1 Coriinthians 15. Jeremiah 1:5 establishes that the Lord knew Jeremiah BEFORE he was in the womb. Sons of God shouting for JOY before the foundations of the world were laid. I invite you to go to the church's website LDS ORG and get into the scriptures there. Click on TOPICAL GUIDE and click on PREMORTAL EXISTENCE and you will get all the scriptures you could possibly want that will SUPPORT this truth, that we lived before we were born here.
mormonanswerman 8 months ago
@burtontoker Apology accepted, I just want you to be consistent. I want everyone to be consistent.
The Bible does NOT talk about age limits for marriage. You are not going to get that from the Canon. But it seems you are projecting a 21st century CULTURE standard onto the 1800's and that's just not working for me. Things were much different then and you know this. Saloons, wild wild west, gold mining, cowboys and indians fighting it out. SLAVERY. Witch huntings/burnings. Stoopidity too
mormonanswerman 8 months ago
@mormonanswerman Where does the BIBLE, word of God, say that there is a pre-existence before earth? Where does it say there are different levels of heaven? Man, you're just believing a bunch of nonsense garbage. You aren't open minded, there are videos like this showing how corrupt your religion is, yet you still go "oh no its right its right I know it I feel it!" You believe Mormonism because you were brainwashed since a child, don't you see it? It's simple, not very hard to understand.
burtontoker 8 months ago
@burtontoker You are young, only 20. It is YOU that are much more susceptible to the idea of being brainwashed and not having had adequate time to free yourself of it. I think a 52 year old person such as myself, has had plenty to time to choose what I actually wanted in life, and I have done that a long long time ago. I get "brainwashed" by the Lord everytime I pray and get answers and assurance and peace from the Holy Ghost. That's not some TV Preacher guy! Its the real thing.
mormonanswerman 8 months ago
@mormonanswerman So old, but such a fool. I'm younger than you with twice the wisdom. I hope you quit being so ignorant and think for yourself, you really believe Jesus Christ thinks the "Book Of Mormon" is true? What a load of crap. You only need The Bible and Christ, not some book inspired by a false prophet.
burtontoker 8 months ago
@mormonanswerman
Your job as a Mormon/Christian (as I remember) is to forgive and not be judgemental. It's a clear demonstration of desperation on your part to focus on things OTHER THAN the subject--a biblical reference that would allow Joseph to marry multiple women and women already married to living men, as well as marrying little girls.
It's OBVIOUS you CAN'T answer, mr answerman!--so you detract and DISTRACT from the subject so that you feel that you don't HAVE to answer. Good ploy...
42apostate 8 months ago
@42apostate No, I think that if F BOMBS become the conversation, then its time to first address THAT, rather then think we are some kind of "same page" as Christians. Real Christians don't use the F Bomb and curse and swear vulgar speech. Even Jesus said "swear not at all." It doesn't take much of a "judge" to know the Sermon on the Mount and other teachings of Jesus, and when they are being followed or not.
Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that THE SAINTS SHALL JUDGE THE WORLD?
mormonanswerman 8 months ago
@mormonanswerman
Doesn't accusing someone, falsely, of sexual sin or other sins, WITH ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF (even WITH proof and WITH evidence) fall into that category of "F-Bombs and vulgarity"??--especially in light of Christ's plea that we be non-judgemental and hypocritical? Don't you think false accusations (or ANY accusations) made toward any of God's children is somewhat offensive to Jesus Christ? If it is, if it MIGHT be, why do it?
Just to gain a supposed upperhand in a debate?
42apostate 8 months ago
@42apostate Its one thing to actually accuse someone, and another thing altogether to merely suggest the possibility. FYI, you slander the whole church priesthood on the online porn in Utah "issue," and you falsely ACCUSE the men of the CHURCH in doing that, and I throw a little bit back your way and you are offended at this? I'm calling it a little thin-skinned.
I find it instructive to let people taste their own medicine once in a while. Maybe it is just me, but you dish out a LOT.
mormonanswerman 8 months ago
Comment removed
42apostate 8 months ago
@mormonanswerman
What I have are the PROOFS that lead to a natural conclusion. YOU on the other hand, just spew your tripe WITH NO PROOFS!--in an attempt to besmerch someones character just to do a "one-upsmanship" to try to gain the advantage in an argument that you are CLEARLY LOSING, and can't possibly win. What you're doing is COWARDLY--hiding behind your monitor and throwing out random accusations.
BIG DIFFERENCE, MAM!! It's a diffrerence found in the INTENT!
42apostate 8 months ago
@mormonanswerman
I'm aware of Cor 6:2. But you are making a HUGE supposition that YOU are one of those "saints" Paul mentioned--AND are making a pre-emptive strike into accusations where you have NO RIGHT to tread--especially since YOU are no more perfect and informed than others. You simply THINK you are.
You're skating a bit too close to the superior and accusatory attitudes of the Pharisees that brought the woman to the well. The way Christ handled the woman should be an example to you.
42apostate 8 months ago
THE GUY GOT IT RIGHT. There are no "white" people on the face of the earth but shades of brown. He was right. God IS white, however. He is so white as to be a shining bright white, as hot as the noon day sun.
mormonanswerman 9 months ago
@mormonanswerman
And you "know" this HOW?--via your exclusive pipe-line to god? You are no better informed that your Christian or Muslim brothers and sisters. Until you come to realize this you'll always be a Pharisaic entity, ever learning and never able to come into knowledge, ever preaching yet never practicing the "preach".
42apostate 9 months ago
@mormonanswerman
The Book of Mormon ("the most correct book on the face of the earth") DOES make the diferentiation betwn the
"WHITE and delightsome" Nephites (the more blessed of the 2 races), and the dirty, filthy, "LOATHSOME" and degraded Lamanites. Are you trying to RE-WRITE Mormonism to, now, make it seem more politically correct?
Seem so...
42apostate 9 months ago
@42apostate Yes, we know what the Book of Mormon says. But please try to learn the truth before you put down the church. Remember, there are black Mormons on YouTube who will tell you the church is not racist, that they do not feel inferior in any way, etc. I would NOT join a racist church. I know that this "sounds" racist on the surface, but it is NOT. It just drives me nuts that so many people think Mormons are racist! Nothing could be farther from the truth!
cindybin2001 8 months ago
@cindybin2001
I know. I've heard their "testimonies". What YOU have to realize is that there are ALSO blacks on YT who testify to the racist nature of the LDS Church--past AND present. However, it's not a matter of opinion. Your LDS history and documentation (as well as some anecdotal evidence) all conspire to reveal the truth of the matter--LDS, Inc is as racist now as ever--to wit: your Book of Mormon STILL contains the words that PROVE it's racism--the word "pure" notwithstanding!
42apostate 8 months ago
@42apostate Yes, I know there are blacks who say just the opposite of what the other blacks say. That's too bad. It saddens me, because I know the LDS church is not racist. I've known blacks in the church who understand that totally, and don't feel inferior in any way. The LDS church offers more spiritually for blacks than any other church!
cindybin2001 8 months ago
@cindybin2001
Please explain how blacks get more, spiritually, out of the LDS church than other churches. I'm sure you've done the research that clearly shows this to be true. Mind sharing that research with us? Or is this just a "feeling"--like all the other "facts" you've shared? Millions of children around the world have the "feeling" that Santa will really visit them and leave wonderful presents. Does this mean that Santa really exists? Why not? Millions of kids "feel" he does...
42apostate 8 months ago
@42apostate That Santa argument sounds a lot like what ATHEISTS use to tear down the faith of others.
Fact is, Santa may be fictional, but the presents coming on Christmas morning are very real, and to the kids, it is real and the presents really did come.
You fault others on their belief in things that are VERY REAL to them, real feelings, real help, real blessings, real happiness, and you get all hung up because we can't agree on what God exactly is, because... WE CAN'T SEE HIM! Surprise.
mormonanswerman 8 months ago
@mormonanswerman
Your false inuendo about "atheists" didn't escape me. I'll simply ignore your ignorance.
NO! Santa IS fictional--not "MAY be"!
AsK ANY 5 year old if they feel that Santa is a REAL GUY. You'll get the SAME level of surety as most of those adults who "believe" with no evidence. The "real" blessings, help and happiness you THINK you have is no more "real" than the 5 yr old's "happiness, help and blessings (presents)" at HIS contemplation of Santa's reality.
42apostate 8 months ago
@mormonanswerman
Joseph Smith "got all hung up" about all those other "abominable" churches and their "corrupt" ministers and beliefs. Yet you don't bat an eye at HIS hang-up?! What makes you think that the feelings and beliefs of Catholics are not as "REAL" as yours?? Yet your inspired leaders have bad-mouthed Catholic doctrine since the begining. If YOU feel bad about having your beliefs cross-examined, do you suppose Catholics should NOT feel offended by the LDS anti-Catholic diatribe?
42apostate 8 months ago
@42apostate Oh, and you sound pretty convincing and sure of yourself when you tell me that the church is racist! I guess I better tell my Bishop that "42apostate" from the Internet is SURE that we are racist. He'll pass it along to the other higher-ups, and then the entire church will disband in shame and embarrassment, because honestly, we had NO IDEA! We had never heard this before! We always thought everybody loved us and understood us! Oh well. It was nice while it lasted all those years.
cindybin2001 8 months ago
@cindybin2001
Don't patronize me, please.
Is it possible for you to deal with the issue rather than making inane remarks? Although, that is EXACTLY what precipitated the change in Church policy re: polygamy AND it's racism--LDS, Inc CAVED IN to the complaints of non-members as well as it's OWN people.
42apostate 8 months ago
@42apostate I'm not patronizing you! I told you what I feel! And as far as "inane remarks"??? What??? I can't believe you were a Mormon and saying these things to me when I'm trying to be so heartfelt and sincere and trying to help you! I see it didn't do any good! Man this is frustrating. Why do I even bother? I try to help people, and they take things wrong. Sorry I said anything.
cindybin2001 8 months ago
@cindybin2001
I have an excellent bull sh*t detector nowadays that just wnt off on your "heartfelt and sincere" and trying to help, malarky. It is WE who are trying to help YOU! And WE are saying "I see it didn't do any good". I try to help people stuck in a destructive cult and look at the thanks I get!?!?
"Sorry I said anything"??
OOPS! There went the BS detector again.
We've shown several CLEAR evidences (there are MANY OTHERS) of the fraud of Mormonism, and you turn a blind eye?
42apostate 8 months ago
@42apostate Oh my gosh! You used profanity?? And here I thought you were nice! I was out driving this morning thinking about you, and your family, and thinking about how we might be able to have a nice conversation, etc. and this is what you are like?? I can't believe it!!! Wow, you really HAVE changed. This is unbelievable, it really is. Now I really feel I cannot even talk to you, if this is what you are going to be like. Sorry. I really wish you the best. Take care.
cindybin2001 8 months ago
Comment removed
42apostate 8 months ago
@cindybin2001
Don't get all self-righteous on me, cindy...
All your doing here is LOOKING for an excuse to bail out on answering my questions and statements. If it wasn't the "BS" thing you'd be certain to find something else to get offended about--ANY quasi-excuse will do. Right?
Now answer the above question asked 3 days ago: What did any LDS critic say that was not true? Let's try sticking to THAT subject instead of your need for personal attack.
42apostate 8 months ago
Comment removed
42apostate 8 months ago
@cindybin2001
Google for "Sonja Johnson". Sonja was an LDS lady in the 70's who dared oppose the antiquated ideas of the old codgers in SLC and was seen as a brave voice among LDS women. She was EXED! (The ERA passed--inspite of LDS opposition.) Rather than deal with her issues, they did what they ALWAYS do with members who challenge LDS policies. They used STRONG ARM TACTICS. What happened to "Free Agency" over Satan's tactics of FORCE??
42apostate 8 months ago
@42apostate You act as if external forces in the world never had an influence on the people of God.
Did you ever read the story of Moses and the Exodus? Do you think that Pharoh exerted an influence on letting the Lord's people go? Did the Lord respect Pharoh? Why didn't the Lord just send a LIGHTNING BOLT to kill the man who dared to challenge his prophet Moses??? Moses was no different than Joseph. Did Moses CAVE to Pharoh #LOL ??
YET, you require LDS prophets a different standard.
mormonanswerman 8 months ago
@mormonanswerman
That what happens when you ASSUME to know what I think!!--no doubt, under the influence of the "spirit", right?
Adopting the skewed idea that LDS profits n postles compare IN ANY WAY to "Moses" is about as silly as a ZEALOT can get--like comparing water to oil. The ONLY similarity is that they ALL contain DRIPS!
Gods Word, the Bible, declared Moses a Prophet. Today's LDS pretenders are SELF-PROCLAIMED
prophets.
42apostate 8 months ago
@42apostate This is really bugging me, knowing you were so active in the church and are so against it now. Come on!! You KNOW all the crazy things people say about Mormons, and how they misinterpret things, etc. Do you REALLY think there would be ANY blacks in the church if we were so mean and cruel to them? You know that the LDS church offers more spiritually for blacks than any other church! How could you be a member of any other church knowing what you know?
cindybin2001 8 months ago
@cindybin2001
Just because they are black does not make them immune to gullibility. I don't think LDS are "mean and cruel" to their black members. They just don't tell them of their historical racism.
Am I to believe in every wild religious claim that comes down the pike? If not, why believe Mormon claims in particular?
(I mean, REALLY! Kolob!?!? Give us a break...)
42apostate 8 months ago
@42apostate Oh yeah, Kolob, that's so strange a word... like URANUS? #LOL and PLUTO, etc. etc.
mormonanswerman 8 months ago
@mormonanswerman
And where in scripture did you find Yeranus and Puto?
It's NOT the word "Kolob" that's strange...
It's the LDS/PGoGP concept that Kolob is the HUB of the Cosmos--that all power eminates from this single star that keeps ALL other stars and planets in their rotations and orbits.
THAT'S the foolishness of it!
(You KNEW that, but just wanted to try to derail the subject to something else--as USUAL!)
42apostate 8 months ago
Comment removed
42apostate 8 months ago
@42apostate Okay--thanks! Keep in touch.
cindybin2001 8 months ago
@42apostate I am still amazed that you not only apostacized, but you also took your whole family down that road with you. Name removals and everything. No wonder you are hardened against anything sensible that would convince you that you had made the terrible mistake you have indeed made.
inasmuch as parents have children in Zion... that teach them not to understand the doctrine of repentance, faith in Christ...and of baptism...the Holy Ghost...the sin be upon the heads of the parents.
mormonanswerman 8 months ago
@42apostate And also, you say you are more "anti religion" now, meaning you wouldn't join any other church? But if you WERE to join any other church, heck, all I'd have to hear is if they have "coffee hour" and I'd know it wasn't the true church! Knowing that other churches think nothing is wrong with alcohol drives me nuts! One of the things that attracted me to the LDS church all those years ago was The Word of Wisdom. How could you be in any other church knowing what you know?
cindybin2001 8 months ago
@cindybin2001
Interesting how you morph "coffee" into "alcohol" in one graceful move! LOL!!
There are MUCH BETTER health codes out there than what Mormonism offers in it's WOW--as well as being much more clear and specific. For example: No legit health practitioner that I know of would EVER leave out the importance of excercize in a health regimen. It's not even addressed in the WOW!
Wow indeed!
42apostate 8 months ago
@42apostate
Doctrine and Covenants 58:26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.
mormonanswerman 8 months ago
@mormonanswerman
Uh-huh! Run to the COP-OUT verse, that covers LDS arse, when they screw up!?>!?
You repeated that rote answer like a veteran LDS apologist would! Kudos!!
(I used the same ANAL verse when I was LDS to get myself out of trouble...)
You'd think, with all the LDS blather going on about "modern-day revelation", the Mormons would have been "given" a new and improved, spirit-generated retort to replace that archaic, brain-fart of a cop-out!
Some things change, some don't...
42apostate 8 months ago
@42apostate I tried posting this before but I don't think it got through. Have you and your wife read A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, by LeGrande Richards? When I was investigating the church, I had read the BOM but it didn't answer my questions as to the DOCTRINES of the church, what made it different. I found Richards' book in the library and it helped so much! If you read that, you might find it helpful!
cindybin2001 8 months ago
@cindybin2001
Yes we have. I had it nearly memorized at one point on my mission. I have read more LDS books than you can count. And I bought into it. No more, tho...
42apostate 8 months ago
@42apostate What you fail to admit, is that the whole country in the 1800's was racist in their culture. There were SLAVES in the land. That culture, that society, was corrupt, and it was the bulk of Christianity that was doing it to those blacks. You want to make a mountain out of a flat nosed mole hill from BY's statement, but you'll ignore the FACT that the Mormons had no slaves. I think you hate mormonism ONLY because you QUIT it on account of your many unrepentant sins?
mormonanswerman 8 months ago
@mormonanswerman
It doesn't matter what the rest of the country or churches were doing or not doing. We're talking about the "ONE AND ONLY TRUE CHURCH OF GOD ON EARTH" here--the LDS Church (so they claim). IF it were truly God's church it would have been the LEADER in Emancipation and in Civil Rights actions. But since LDS view black skin as an proof of sin and depravity, they effectively told the black community "SCREW YOU"!
I "hate" LDS?
Said like the true Pharisee you are, MAM!
42apostate 8 months ago
@42apostate Was Jesus a leader in the "civil rights" movement to liberate the Jewish people from the Roman rule? You speak nonsense if you think that this was Joseph Smith's job, to end slavery.
mormonanswerman 8 months ago
@mormonanswerman
JS SAID IT HIMSELF!
Joe KNEW what the right thing to do was. Trouble was he USED the abolitionist platform in order to get elected.
Jesus?
Again! We're talking about TODAY'S LDS claim of being God's RESTORED Church! The one that is to "ROLL FORTH/FILL THE EARTH"--uniting the world in peace? This is typical LDS rhetoric! ALL talk and NO ACTION! That was the LDS opportunity to step up and be counted...paraphras'g GBH's vacant words to "STAND FOR SOMETHING"!
FAILED!
42apostate 8 months ago
@mormonanswerman
That's the typical LDS position--the WRONG side of every important issue...
42apostate 8 months ago
@42apostate Why didn't Jesus end the oppression of the Jews in his day? How come Pilate was the judge of Jesus? Your logic is not holding even with biblical examples.
mormonanswerman 8 months ago
@mormonanswerman
How DEGRADING for you--having to resort to using BIBLICAL examples!!
You seem to forget that Jesus was there for ONE REASON and ONE REASON ONLY--not to go to a Roman prison for treason. He DID teach the people to "choose ye this day whom ye shall serve". The two obvious choices were God or Caesar (the world/money-filthy lucre). He said if ye are Caesar's render unto Caesar, but if ye are God's followers, render unto God. You CAN'T DO BOTH!! CHOOSE!
42apostate 8 months ago
@mormonanswerman
OH?!?!
So it was okay that Jesus assisted the Children of Israel to escape the Pharoh, but not the COI under Rome?!?!
It's YOUR "logic" that isn't holding...
42apostate 8 months ago
@mormonanswerman
I call it "Image Buffing".
Don't feel bad. ALL apologists do this, one degree or another in attempting to paint the situation a different hue that the real one presented--be it polygamy, racism, bigotry (prop-hate), 2nd class status of LDS women, Utah as the top rated porn users in America and near the top in young men suicides/teen pregnancies, etc., etc., etc.--and make excuses for this UN Christlike phenom to create the needed IMAGE!
By their fruits shall they be known!
42apostate 9 months ago
@42apostate Second class status of LDS women?? Nothing could be farther from the truth. I'm a convert to the LDS church, I have many Mormon women friends, my daughter-in-law is active in the church, and NONE of them are "second class" at all. Mormons are not racist, either. I would never join a racist church. I'm always yelling at people on the Internet who use the n-word, etc. Please learn the truth about the church before you say all these things.
cindybin2001 8 months ago
@cindybin2001
I was BIC and probably active LDS for longer than you've had a heartbeat and do not speak from a position of ignorance.
RE: women.
How many LDS women hold priesthood positions of importance? Bishops? Apostles?
Relief Society is run NOT by women, rather they ADMINISTER the directives of their male, priesthood- holding masters. A Patriarchy!
Google LDS OPPOSITION to the women's Equal Rights Amendment of the early 70's for insight on how women are viewed by OFFICIAL Mormondum.
42apostate 8 months ago
@42apostate I've been LDS for over 30 years. I'm probably older than you? (54). Anyway, you KNOW why women don't hold priesthood positions, etc. You were a Mormon! You should know all this stuff! I can't believe you are hung up on things like this! Now come on!!! You know better! Your wife should, too. As I said, I read your profile, and I made several posts to you--I hope you read them!
cindybin2001 8 months ago
@cindybin2001
Sorry. You are NOT older than I am. (Lookie!! A COMPLIMENT!!)
You spared no words about women as 2nd Class LDS citizens--but did not answer as to why LDS women are NOT 2nd class. I probably won't read your posts at my channel--until you give me straight answers here.
Quit already, with the dodging and crying and complaining. How about a bit of honesty for a change...?
42apostate 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@42apostate I hold my wife in MUCH higher esteem than myself, that's for sure, and so do ALL of the other men I know who are in the church. They all know that we got the priesthood to SCHOOL us and help us learn how to be as good as the women naturally ARE. There is no way that you are going to say this untruth and not be corrected. What kind of experience did you have? Do you hold your wife in high esteem? Is that why you made her quit too? You confuse me.
mormonanswerman 8 months ago
@mormonanswerman
It's your misguided (anti-Christ) assumptions that are the source of your confusion.
I told my wife that I was submitting my resignation to Greg Dodge at Member Records, SLC. SHE read my lette, and SHE ASKED ME to include her and the three kids left at home (the other 2 left LDS on their own (good kids that they are). One kid remains LDS--but ONLY because of his LDS wife, inlaws and kids, KNOWING they'd go stark-raving NUTS if he did. Nothing like a good LDS family, eh?
42apostate 8 months ago
Comment removed
mormonanswerman 8 months ago
@42apostate I'll bet that you are from Utah and looking at the porn, on account that you don't go to church and don't care to stay morally clean from this. It's not the active mormons who are looking at the porn in Utah online, its the INactive ones, or the ones that had their names removed, and the ones that just don't believe in anything at all. Its an IMMORAL person who looks at this stuff, the kind of people who protest the moral things taught at a General Conference and shout out slogans.
mormonanswerman 8 months ago
@mormonanswerman
The hogwash you're attempting to pass off here as legit is laughable, MAM. (Even President Monson would cringe at your words.) Yet you persist in verifying my assertion that you, MAM, are the complete, modern day, Pharisee (complete with deformed arms, caused by the incessant patting of your own back!!
42apostate 8 months ago
@42apostate
I don't have any problem admiting that I am a sinner. Jesus hobnobbed with sinners--which APPALLED the Pharisees -- like you!! Why do you have a problem admitting you're a sinner too? Too far beneath you,
you arrogant piece of cagatha!!
42apostate 8 months ago