Re; I used to be a Christian! (No True Scotsman) (part 1 of 2)

[FATMIKED5183]

Christians on youtube are just retarded.Well the ones who TRY to argue anyway.

[Replikea]

FUCKING Amazing~~~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!­!!!!!!!!!!

[David578593]

1 John 2:19

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

[ironcross66106]

Do you know why atheists hate this so much?

Because they want oh so badly to believe that they too were uneducated at one time, and gulible, until they educated and enlightened themselves to shake off the fairytale beliefs.

I know you want so badly to believe this, but this is just not true.

God's word say's what it takes in Romans 10:9-10 to be a true Christian.

You must confess with your mouth, ( here is the key you are missing) and believe in your heart.

[dechha1981]

@ironcross66106 How many fucking times do I have to explain to beope that the No true scotsman falacy DOES NOT WORK on me?

Just, just tell me, honestly, what do I have to do to demonstarte just how much I loathe you for even attempting to make an argument with the word "True" in it?

[ironcross66106]

@dechha1981 P2 You hate God, His word, and all who serve Him. So I take that as a huge compliment, considering I'm in great company. Thanks. Also fallacy is not spelled falacy. Normally I wouldn’t mention this, but atheists love to so much, I thought I would return the favor. Take a step back, and look at what an atheist speaks like, and how they treat others. If you are the poster child for what one get's for being an atheist, who on earth would want it? Continued.

[dechha1981]

@ironcross66106

No I don't. Oh, and thank you for reminding me of the ONE and ONLY thing that'll make me loose all respect for someone faster and more thoroughly than useing an argument with the word "True' in it; telling me what I think.

YOU are not psychic. And even if you were, you can't tell me that you know how i think and I can't.

So, thank you for reminding me what my Pet Peeve is, and for giving me an excuse to block you. I apreciate it.

[Mithcoriel]

This Christian logic amounts not only to the No True Scotsman fallacy, but to circular reasoning.

Atheist: The fact that Christians deconverted speaks against the idea that Christianity is the One True Religion

Christian: No true christian deconverts!

Atheist: Okay then: the fact that there's fake christians speaks against Christianity.

To rephrase their argument: "No Christian who never deconverted has ever deconverted."

(Deconversion is a like time travel: it undoes your past Christianness)

[jonesgerard]

So was Anthony Flew never a real atheist?

Or did he realize he wasted his whole life being a defiant immature scared little boy?

He hints at the silliness of his fallacy argument, it really doesn't hold water under scrutiny , yet it is parroted by atheists as if it does.

[comedyact56]

I'm sorry but I just have to say that the creator of this retorical video has a compleste lack of understanding and grasp of the video he is slamming. And it just shows that he is not an intellectual at all. Stop slamming somethig that you obviously don't have any understanding of and start asking questions to gain an understanding. Otherwise you just look ridiculous.

[Boxcutter7]

Actually the creator of this video is quite intellectual. "You are proving my point. You say you can't "know" God only believe." My point is that when I WAS a christian, I did claim to KNOW god!  If I didn't believe that I KNEW god, I WOULDN'T HAVE TALKED TO HIM MULTIPLE TIMES A DAY, CRIED TEARS OF JOY PRAISING HIM FOR CREATING ME & SAVING ME. You don't know people's lives & just because you believe so strongly, you can't say that strong christians can't eventually let go of their dogma!

[comedyact56]

Letting go of their dogma is one thing. I realize that people walk away from their Christian beliefs all of the time. But to say that you once "knew" God and then now say that He doesn't exist is an oximoron. You can't have it both ways. Tell me that you no longer want to follow Christ but don't tell me that you once knew him and then tell me that now you were mistaken and now don't believe he exists. I 'know" God, I don't just believe that I know him. You were never a Christian. Sorry.

[Boxcutter7]

Dogma is believing that you "know". You CAN'T know that there is a god. You only believe. It's very possible to strongly believe that there is a god, believe so strongly that you feel that you know that he exists, then later on realize the truth & logic of the matter - EX-CHRISTIANS. There are many of ex-christians. Most christians will agree that faith is a belief without proof or logic, that you must have FAITH, not evidence (not KNOWLEDGE). YOU'RE NOT A CHRISTIAN! SORRY!

[comedyact56]

Hebrews 11:1 states that "Faith is the 'substance' of things hoped for the'evidence' of things not seen. It's not as you put it a 'belief without proof or logic' . Faith is proof without the physical evidence that science requires it to have. But it is evidence non-the-less. Without this kind of faith you cannot even approach God. So if you say that you don't have this kind of faith then you can't be a Christian. This kind of faith proves God in the Spritual dimensions that exists beyond nature.

[sabertooth1980]

@comedyact56 Faith isn't proof. Faith is believing without evidence. And you are quoting a book that we atheists don't believe in to try and prove something. Fail.

[dechha1981]

@comedyact56

When have I EVER claimed to "Know" Jesus? If you have a "Personal Relatrionship" with Jesus, that's not called being a Christian, that's called being a psycho.

[comedyact56]

My comment was directed towards Boxcutter7 YouTube must have somehow sent my reply to you. In any case, you are proving my point, you and other athiests don't have a clue about what Christianity really is all about if you don't understand that it is about "knowing God" in a real and marvelous way. We Christians have a personal relationship with Jesus. It is on a spiritual level that the natural mind cannot comprehend. Sorry you have rejected this notion. U are missing the best life!!!!!

[Boxcutter7]

I don't care if you call me a backslider or a heathen, but how dare you say that I was never a christian, when you have no idea! Basically, since god knows the future, a lot of current christians who say they "know" that their god is real & later on become atheist, they're already doomed for hell. You can say you know god & be a true christian & then later on say that he doesn't exist, IT'S POSSIBLE!! It's not having it both ways, it's changing your beliefs (facepalm)

[comedyact56]

Wait a minute...you just said that God knows the future and so all who deny His existence will go to hell. I thought you said you didn't believe in God. Maybe you are just a backslider and not a true athiest. Just a thought,,, :)

[Boxcutter7]

I was referring to the christian belief. I don't believe in god. I meant that if the bible is true, according to your standards on what makes you a christian, god already has in mind millions of current christians that he will send to hell - many of which will become atheist/agnostic, and since your god knows the future, they're already doomed for hell.

[sabertooth1980]

@comedyact56 Monk in the bushes. In order to talk about your god I have to describe what you believe about your god. I don't have to believe in your god to describe what you believe about your god. And why we even talk about it at all is because you continue to talk about when we don't really care about it.

[sabertooth1980]

@dechha1981 It's just like the old saying goes. If you talk to god, it's called "praying", but if you talk to your self or if god talks to you, it's called schizophrenia. Frankly, I don't see a difference.

[jonesgerard]

@dechha1981 No Thats called being a christian.

Psycho is your OPINION .

Opinion is the mouthpeice of the Ego.

[comedyact56]

I cannot believe you can't grasp the simplicity of this extremely logical video. You don't get it that marriage by this video's definition is one who has consumated the marriage. Thus you can't have said that you are a virgin and are married. The two can't co-exhist. It's impossible. So a "true Christian" is one who has to have reached the "knowing" stage of their relationship with God or they should not consider themselves Christians.

[ErikeRKK]

Hi, thought I'd might as well follow you here too.

Are you saying one can know God?

[comedyact56]

Absoluetely!!! That's what I am trying to communicate with you all. There are millions of people who "know" God in a supernatural and incredible way that science will be hard pressed to prove because God cannot be contained by scientific theory. It's like saying he is the author of a book who lives outside of the characters he has created. That's why science alone is hard pressed to prove His existence, but there is so much other evidence to consider it's overwhelming.

[ErikeRKK]

You do understand that you can't prove anything beyond math and logic..? And also, that the closest thing to proving anything outside of that realm is with science. If you go beyond that you don't have anything that even resembles proof or evidence, you're only left with anecdotes and emotions.

Tell me what you mean by "overwhelming evidence", please.

[Boxcutter7]

Basically you're saying that millions of christians (including new christians in 3rd world countries that were recently witnessed to) are actually deserving going to hell. Ordained ministers that had personal relationships [with what they later on realized was a placebo relationship] have come across evidence refuting the bible, as well as many fallacies in the bible, they then became atheists/agnostics (same summary for me, but I wasn't a minister). You can't KNOW god, you can only believe.

[comedyact56]

You are proving my point. You say you can't "know" God only believe. That's what being a Christian is all about! Knowing God. True Christians do know God. You who say your are Christians but say you don't know God are not Christians. Look up Matthew 7:22,23 to see what Jesus told the people on the sermon on the monut of Olives.

[bliink182]

5:50

Taken COLOSSALLY out of context.

[cadborasaurus]

He didn't say that having sex made you married.  He said consummation was PART OF THE MARRIAGE PROCESS. So, your whole argument starting at 5:47 against Daniel's is immediately flawed.

[dechha1981]

No, he said Sex = Marriage and no sex = no marriage. He SPECIFICALLY said that if you're a virgin you're not married. That's what he said. Don't try telling me he said anything other than exactly what he said.

[cadborasaurus]

He said that too.... but he said that as part of the explanation of what he had just said BEFORE that. Try to pay attention to the video!

[dechha1981]

I WENT THROUGH AND DEBUNKED THE ENTIRE VIDEO you idiot!

[cadborasaurus]

Correction: You Tried to debunk the entire video. But, you failed miserably. I just debunked one part of what you said. Do you want me to debunk the rest? I'd be glad to do so.

[dechha1981]

You debunked nothing! You tried to retcon what he said to try and claim that he wasn't really saying that sex = Marriage and Virgin=Single. That was the ENTIRE premis of his arguement.

[cadborasaurus]

that's because that's not what he was saying... start the video at 5:29 and you'll hear him say, "Consummation is PART of the marriage process."

He never said scratch the marriage ceremony. He just said that the marriage had to be consummated. This part of your argument, debunked... next...

[dechha1981]

Nope, nope, he very clearly and explicitly stated that if you were still a virgin you weren't really married. And he was useing this analogy to say that if you weren't hearing voices in your head you weren't a Christian.

He even went so far as to have a silly looking character in a bad red wig and an even worse scottish accent say "I've been married for 20 years but I'm still a Virgin" and then have another character be confused by that.

Stop trying to retcon it.

[cadborasaurus]

I know what he said. And he also said that consummation wast PART of the marriage process.

Now, let's put together all of what he said. "Consummation is part of the marriage process, so if a person is still a virgin, then the can't have ever been married."

What he was saying is that consummation was PART of the marriage process. You have the marriage ceremoney, but that is only the first step in becoming married. The next step is consummation.

Don't take him out of context!

[dechha1981]

No, he made a BIG DEAL about saying that you weren't "Really Married" unless you had sex.

[cadborasaurus]

I KNOW... what part about, "Consummation is PART of the marriage process" do you not understand?

If the marriage is not consummated you aren't "really married" .... but consummation is the SECOND step (or PART) of the marriage process. The marriage ceremony is the FIRST step (PART).

He never said "throw out the marriage ceremony" or anything of the like. He just said that it had to be consummated. That's all he said.

[sthebg20]

I believe that the Orc is flesh and blood! Your Illuvatar/Valar-worshipping hands make it appear to be manufactured! Orcs are real! Melkor is real! The one and only true power to exist before Arda is real!

LOL

[furbearingbrick]

Oh, the Bible also says you can't go to church if you have any physical flaw (Lev. 21:17-23) or if you, your parents, or your great-great-great grandparents were born via c-section (Deut. 23:2) be around or even look at menstruating women (Lev. 18:19) work on the Sabbath on pain of DEATH (Exodus 31:14-15, 35:2-3, Jer. 17:27), etc., etc. Basically, there's no way to meet all the criteria in that freakin' thing.

[AntiCitizenX]

The orc looks real enough to me. I think I'll just choose to believe in it. "Orc hell" sounds kinda scary to me. :)

[Nihilist127]

Don't fear the orc fear Cthulu. Go d&d references.

[r44cker]

This is stupid, the point Daniel made was about "fallen christians" who became atheists. So they say: THERE IS NO GOD. An exalcoholic can not say: There is no alcohol. Thats why there is no such thing as a EXchristian, cuz its just not possible. You may hate God for whatever ridiculous reason your brain came up with, but if you REALLY were a christian, you cant say: There is no God. Poor vid dude, very poor.

[Boxcutter7]

By your logic, NO ONE can be a "true" christian UNTIL THEY'RE DEAD! Imagine witnessing in a 3rd world country & you try to tell them that they will not go to heaven unless they do this, this & this & have a personal relationship with god etc. I am 1 of many atheists that used to have a personal relationship with what we thought was a god that listened to us, then we found out & realized things & it doesn't make sense anymore. You can REALLY be a christian & years later say "there is no god"

[AbbeyNormal]

I left you a response video that I made some time ago dealing with these kinds of accusations. I don't know if you've heard this argument before already but I thought it might be interesting.

[AbbeyNormal]

Best Buy should sue that guy for stealing their "Geek Squad" design and making a mockery of it.

[cadborasaurus]

"AbbeyNormal", he didn't make the shirt. He bought it from: kerusso com

[AbbeyNormal]

Well, then they should sue kerusso com.

[cadborasaurus]

They could, but they would lose the lawsuit.  It is allowed under the Fair Use Act.

[AbbeyNormal]

I know it's legal to use materials for parody purposes, but is it legal to make money off of it against the will of the owner of the material?

[cadborasaurus]

"Weird Al" does.

[AbbeyNormal]

Only once and it was a misunderstanding, he got Coolio mad at him.

[mtlsoul]

I understand the marriage argument, he is saying if you don't surrender your mind, and force all of your mental energy into justifying your belief, convincing yourself you are right, and daydreaming of a Utopia where these are not only the only things you can do, but are the only things you want to do.

Thats my interpertation.

Killer vid!

[theTRUTHgroup]

According to John 14 (from the video), the Comforter is the Holy Spirit.

As a true believer, He dwells in us and is with us forever.

You, however, obviously did not experience this.

That's why it's easy to say that you were never really a Christian.

It's pretty simple, really.

[dechha1981]

I told you, that doesn't make you a Christian, that makes you a lunatic.

[blackmetalqueer]

You support your scotsman fallacy by this unjustified presupposition that christian god actually does exist to "dwell in us forever". You have to conclusively prove this assumption to be true before you can use it as a premise fit for your ad hoc definition of a christian.

[blackmetalqueer]

The alternative, which seems much more likely, is that the awesome experiences of the holy spirit (I know what I am talking about), the relationship felt with Christ, and all these feelings you talk about as tangible proof of god are ACTUALLY simple willful imaginings. All that is needed to feel love is to perceive that you are being loved. Jesus doesn't need to exist for you to feel loved, all you need to do is perceive that he loves you, ie. it is all in your head.

[AbbeyNormal]

Well, it's no fault of the Christian if the Holy Spirit in decides not to bother with dwelling in any given person. Frankly I find it disgusting that you believe that a small child, praying furvently at her bedside for Jesus to come into her heart, should not recieve the Holy Spirit because she's just not doing it right or something.

blackmetalqueer: "all these feelings you talk about as tangible proof of god are ACTUALLY simple willful imaginings."

This makes much more sense, really.

[bobomcgraw]

What the hell kind of accent was that supposed to be?

[CincinnatusSPQR]

A really bad Scottish accent.. The worst ive ever heard!

[Johannes9126]

So the truth group is basically using the "you are not praying hard enough if you don't feel god" sectoid drivel.

[jussts]

What do you mean that's not a real Orc?

PS: I think it's hilarious how he tries to use the no true Scotsman fallacy to... disprove(?!?) the no true Scotsman fallacy. What a maroon.

[AbbeyNormal]

It's not an Orc, it's an Uruk Hai!

[jussts]

A thousand pardons, Lord Sauron...

[Edifis]

If you're a true Christian, God will keep you mind-controlled to prevent you stepping out of line.

[olocouno]

What happened to the blessing of "free will"? Adam and Eve were perfect, and they chose to disobey God's commandment. But the point is that they were *perfect*. They made a choice, in their perfection. What's to stop Christians from doing the same?

[SkepticalAtheist]

Is that a Gigabyte motherboard box in the background?

[DaveJonesBSNews]

Did he actually use the example of why the no true scotsman is a silly childish arguement to explain it. Why?

[PhiloCentinel]

What that guy is basicly saying is that "The no true scotsman fallicy doesn't apply to us. Why? Because we say so."

[vikingatheist]

the word 'jesus' makes me want to vomit. i can't stand these christians any more.

[Scorpiochess]

That video was freaking painful to watch. What he said, in effect, was that you can't be a Christian unless you're possessed by a foreign spirit, but if that's true then why do fundies keep proselytizing?

[mennoir]

That's an uruk Hai, not an Orc!!

[soulinite]

"a bastard mix of orc and men bred by Saruman to fight in the day light.

[mennoir]

yeah but Dechna's puppet is from the movies, so it's slightly different. Orcs and Goblins i think... But yes that's all a little bit off-topic maybe.

[cartier117]

hahahahaha the things people argue about

like it even matters

[faolitaruna]

I don't know it would apply for all christian denominations, but for Catolic Church he is right about marriage. By the law you can't be both married and virgin.

[poorkinghaggard]

Were Josef and Mary not married? Was Mary not a virgin at the time she had Jesus?

[FSAthe1st]

"Were Josef and Mary not married? Was Mary not a virgin at the time she had Jesus?"

That kind of reasoning from Christians always amuses me. Then again, it's the same king of thinking that makes fundamentalists assert that dinosaurs, dogs, cats and other animals actually engage in MARRIAGE before they engage in sexual behaviour.

[kff]

I think Daniel is "unmarried" ¬_¬

[MpowerdAPE]

I CAN, I BELIEVE. ALL HAIL SHAGRAT. KING OF THE ORCS. MASTER OF OUR SOULS. THANK YOU deccha. thankyou for bringing me to the light.

[UmbWesker]

lol did he just say it has nothing to do with "no true christian.." HAHAHA...

oh man.

funny stuff.

[BENY0HAMA]

I don't get definition #9. Are Orthodox, Catholic and Non-Denominational christians not christian?

[Zekkron]

It's only a fallacy when someone says they used to be two Christians.

[GoblinXXX]

What if he's half a siamese twin? Huh? What THEN???

[Erech01]

I dont mean to sound nerdy but its an Uruk-Hai, not an orc....:P

[dechha1981]

correct.

[BohemianBlasphemy]

GAAAAAAAAAH! The Urukai is REAL!

Hey, faith works! It is real FOR ME!

[purplejugnut]

someone once asked me why i became an atheist. and so i thought about it and asked him if he was told that santa clause was real when he was a kid. then i asked him if anyone had to tell him santa clause wasn't real or if he just realized it on his own. I just realized that santa for grownups had no more merit than santa for kids. on a side note i wonder how many kids had to be told there is no santa or easter bunny.

[farvision]

faith: stupid on purpose. Excellent definition!

[ZombieGuy1]

So, first this guy creates new criteria for being a Christian and then he goes on to create new criteria for marriage as well! "Never truly married", are you retarded?

[GoblinXXX]

It's easy to win an argument when you can totally make up your own rules.

[ZombieGuy1]

'course there's no such thing as "True Christians"(tm) unless they stone unruly children, marry their rapists, keep their beard, etc.

[Atheistblindchick]

The org is real!

Children have a "relationship" with Santa. They believe he's real, even talk to him, send him letters etc etc. It's silly to say they never believed in him, because at one point they don't...

[Atheistblindchick]

And he's right, they are not true christians as soon as they don't believe in god anymore... But up to htat point, they are true christians...

[dechha1981]

Orcs in general are usually depicted as Human Height, big muscles, green skin, pointy ears, and their noses vary, sometimes they're like an ape, sometimes they're like a pig. Their teeth also vary. sometimes they have fangs like vampires, sometimes they have huge tusks that overlap their top lip like a pig or a warthog. This paticular action figure had dark reddish brown skin, pointy teeth and semi ape-like nose.

[GoblinXXX]

I've read LotR and the Hobbit many times, though not for a long time, now... I really don't remember any really specific descriptions of orcs or :goblins" in either. I do reacall some described as black, but none as green.

[dechha1981]

Nah, Tolkien wasn't a terribly descriptive Author, he left allot to the readers imagination. Hell, it wasn't untill towards the end of Return of the King that we found out that Pippin had dark hair!

[GoblinXXX]

JRR was big on telling us what everyone ATE, though- Which worked for him, but has spawned a lot of dull fantasy (I'm looking at YOU, David Eddings!)

[poorkinghaggard]

He left no detail out. In fact, he was really boring because he could span several pages just describing the countryside. I found myself skimming when he did that.

Do you mean he was not forthcoming about the elements that were important? Many of the characters in the live-action movie looked exactly how I imaged, so I am not sure if he really did. Gollum's voice sucked, though: Theodore Gottleib had the best impression.

[dechha1981]

Just so you know, in the bits where I'm talking, I'm holding up an action figure of an Orc, spelled O R C from Lord of the Rings. Technically he's actually an Uruk-Hai, U R U K DASH H A I one of the bigger Orcs selectively bread by the evil Wizard Saruman from Orcs and Wild Men as improvements on normal Orcs/goblins. Basically, human height, muscular, bloodthursty and ugly. All Orcs are ugly and bloodthursty but these ones are bigger.

[DeistPaladin]

Thank you. Nobody "chooses" to believe what they do. You either do or you don't believe something.

[DoubleIntruder]

You have committed the sin of putting sugar on porridge..?

[DoubleIntruder]

Never mind..

They will always claim you were never "one of us" it's typical brainwashed behavior to demonize anything that goes against the hive mind..

They might as well point at ex christians & scream like in invasion of the body snatchers..

[aka4x7b]

omg ... orc's are REAL!

[GoblinXXX]

That one is, anyway.

[BlooddGodd]

so i was never a xtain because i never had sex with god? lol

[JohnTraviss]

Is that Lurtz?

[JohnTraviss]

Uruk Hai, attack the christians!!!!

[CentabyteZero]

Bah! I believed he was a real orc for two seconds and then you started telling me he wasn't real and it threw me off! jk, of course.

[bearpaw72]

And to think that in my first idea hell (when I was 8) involved going to heaven and getting reamed on by God and deceased elders for unpunished sins.

[jbz3]

That guy doesn't deserve a geeksquad shirt

[windyshrimp]

The definition of marriage is that you had sex with the person? Are you sure this guy isn't a troll? Either a troll or I honestly don't believe now that he learned anything outside of what his parents told him.

[dackjaniels555]

Sweeeeet Ork! Srysly that's a damn handsome mo-fo.

[VioletCosmonaut]

Projection. If they would allow themselves to think instead of lalalalalalalalalalalala, maybe they wouldn't feel so resentful and resort to this argument which includes portraying/implying atheists as gross, and stupid.

[WeedGreenPowerRanger]

Is it just me or did it sound like he was talking about God busting your cherry?

He's gay for God!

[RustyCyler]

"you can either think about things or you can be stupid on purpose, thats what FAITH is."

I like that one.... :)

[mrkurt13]

I've been saying that forever. People cant choose what they believe. No one seems to get it. You can only choose if you know absolutely nothing about the subject.

[pinkdog1992]

yeah if someone bellives in the concept of truth then its impossible to choose what one bellives

[Hereticbooks]

I think faith can be defined as an absence of fear...but it doesn't necessarily have anything at all to do with religion.

[AshillaBeige]

I think faith can be defined as an absence of rationality.

[luerwulf]

"I think faith can be defined as an absence of fear..."-

Well, I think cars can be defined as an absence of turnips ... but it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with transportation.

Besides, faith is a manifestation of fear - fear that you might not have an 'answer'.