What Jacque Fresco ACTUALLY says about TVP/TZM and coercion/violence.

[clevelandtyler2]

Such a fraud

[gunsandbullhorns]

watch?v=QZqY505z1EY

A little bit after the 9:00 mark, the question of population pressing on the means of subsistence was raised. The question was not answered well. The solution was "We educate them". What sent chills up my spine was this...

JACQUE: "Now if they don't seem to understand that; that's another problem..."

ROXANNE: "There's lots of ways of birth control"

Care to shed light upon this cryptic suggestion?

BTW, using the verb "educate" in the transitive sense suggests coërsion.

[Leveer13]

@gunsandbullhorns "educate" does not mean coercion at all. The idea is that we tell people how many people the earth can support and suggest to people it would not be a good idea to have children until we can extend that number. We don't actually anticipate that happening. But people ask us because we suggest the "carrying capacity of the earth". If you know there is only enough to feed 2 children and you decide to have four, that's going to cause problems. We won't stop you. Limits will.

[gunsandbullhorns]

@Leveer13

The issue is how to deal with recalcitrants. That was the context in which I quoted Jacque and Roxanne, and that would be a context in which the transitive verb "educate" could suggest coërsion. Population has always increased in RESPONSE to increases in means of subsistence, so it wouldn't be an issue in practice, but that's irrelevant to what Jacque and Roxanne ACTUALLY SAID. I want clarification on what was MEANT by "that's another problem" and "lots of ways of birth control".

[Leveer13]

@gunsandbullhorns As someone who has spoken with Jacque and Roxanne about this dozens of times (That's me in the video asking him the questions) I can tell you that it is exactly as I just said. Which is that we will tell people the projections on how many people the earth can sustain. And suggest that people procreate accordingly. If there is an overpopulation problem then we find technological means to feed/house/clothe more people to make it not a problem. We don't sterilize people.

[venusprojection]

Right... since The Venus Project will control all the resources, they will have no choice but to join due to a lack of available resources otherwise. So, nobody will be force to join... but basically they will have the choice of joining or starving to death. Nice! All the answers you guys give to valid questions are very carefully worded and tip-toe around the unpleasant realities of what you guys are actually proposing.

[Leveer13]

@venusprojection that is ridiculous. It amazes me how people can just make stuff up and try to hold TVP accountable to their silly theories. We don't make anybody join. If you want to sit on your property and do your thing we don't care. We will only have the resources that people have agreed to give us by joining. But even then, nobody is going to let you starve. That's just stupid and is never implied.

[venusprojection]

@Leveer13 Lies, but ok whatever you say.

[Leveer13]

@venusprojection That's just it, your the one who is being misleading here. If your going to call someone a liar it might be in your best interest to be able to prove it. Otherwise your engaging in libel.

[venusprojection]

@Leveer13 Actually you denied what I said before without providing any proof, only your perception of what is being said by Jacque Fresco. "We don't make anybody join. If you want to sit on your property and do your thing we don't care. We will only have the resources that people have agreed to give us by joining. But even then, nobody is going to let you starve. That's just stupid and is never implied."

It IS implied. Nobody is forcing anyone to join... if they starve it's their own choice.

[Leveer13]

@venusprojection No. It's not just my perception. I talk to Jacque very regularly. And I know what he meant. The problem here is YOUR PERCEPTION of what is being said that your largely just making up as you go along. Nobody has said "if they starve it's their own choice". You said that. As I pointed out Jacque talks about groups like the Amish who won't want to join. And they won't have to. And if they are ever in trouble we WILL help them.

[venusprojection]

@Leveer13 You have your perception of what is being said, and I have mine. I know all the propaganda answers you guys give, because I used to give them. But the truth is much more harsh than how you guys like to portray it.

[Leveer13]

@venusprojection Um, no. It's not propaganda. How much time have you spent actually talking with Jacque Fresco? Have you ever? I truly doubt it. 

[venusprojection]

@Leveer13 Look, I was in the Zeitgeist Movement for 2 freakin years and went to all the teamspeak meetings and before that ventrillo. I've talked to PJ, Neil, Jacque, Roxxane, Thunder and pretty much all the main people in the movement. I have read both of Fresco's books, and listened to every podcast, every lecture, read every article... I've research TZM completely. If you'd like to have a serious debate on youtube, I will gladly mop the floor with you.

[Leveer13]

@venusprojection LOL Riiiiight. I would love to have a voice debate with you. But Youtube is tedious for a debate. Want to come on V-RADIO and debate some time?

[venusprojection]

@Leveer13 Oh I see so you say that's you asking the questions in the video... so you're Neil? Ok then I'd gladly debate you and show how so many of your so called "answers" are in fact misleading and deliberately worded in a certain way to sound as harmless and simplified as possible when the reality of what is actually being advocated is far more controversial.

[Leveer13]

@venusprojection Let me know when you want to come on V-RADIO.

[venusprojection]

@Leveer13 When is your next show?

[venusprojection]

@Leveer13 Or screw that and come into teamspeak right now and we'll do it right now.

[Leveer13]

@venusprojection Teamspeak would be fine, but I have been cleaning my house all day. So I did not get your message.

[MrPloppy1]

This is not what he said in the "summary" video. He said that it wouldn't be good enough for single nations to adopt his ideas, and that the whole world would have to accept TVP in order for it to work.

[Leveer13]

@MrPloppy1 The critical point is, we won't be forcing anyone to do anything.

[MrPloppy1]

@Leveer13 "If you don't want war, poverty, hunger, unemployment--you have to declare all the earth's resources as a common heritage of all the world's people. All the artifical boundries have to be removed so that people can travel anywhere. It has to be a global society. There are many people who feel. "well let's develop each country." You CAN'T do that, because if the Russians do experiments with nuclear materials, and the Chinese--that air goes all over the world."

(cont.)

[MrPloppy1]

@Leveer13 (Cont.)

"... So it's very hard to work independently. So I would say, if you want these things you have to change the way your soceity operates."

--Jacque Fresco

/watch?v=px_QSxCYm58

How does that not sound like coercion? I don't see any wiggle room for people who don't wish to be part of TVP. How else would you declare ALL the earth's resources the "people's heritage" if not by force? It sounds like there can be no tolerance for the existence of independent communities.

[Leveer13]

@MrPloppy1 Again, Jacque is concerned that if we don't switch to the system he is suggesting that we will die because the planet will no longer be inhabitable. No force or coercion coming from us. The circumstances on the earth itself will kill us.

[Leveer13]

@MrPloppy1 Then you persuade them. Not only do we not advocate force because it is immoral, it is not even effective. As for the world's resources, that is the declaration of the people who accept this idea. I have talked to Jacque about other communities that would not want to join us like the Amish, and he said they are free to do whatever they want. Just as in this video, people DO NOT HAVE TO JOIN US. Please stop projecting your own fears into this. It's irrational.

[Leveer13]

@MrPloppy1 We want the world to move in this direction. But not because we are going to force people to join. But because we feel that if we do not follow this direction mankind may not survive. But our understanding of human behavior states that violence and coercion only make more violence and coercion hence we do not feel it is effective if your goal is peace.

[Leveer13]

Because they WANT this to be some evil plan because it is not the same as the ideology they are clinging to.

[Neanderthalcouzin]

I dont understand, people are thumbing down physical evidence of what Fresco has to say about this issue? Thumb down evidence and informing people?

This  is my sad face :(

[justintempler]

A centralized source of food, held by people that don't believe in violence? I guess you guys have never seen food riots before. You guys can't be that naive, can you?

[valhala56]

It's like Storm wants total collapse and a resulting Mad Max world. He doesn't even want to entertain the possiblity of Manking taking the next step in societal evolution. Like previous steps from Hunte-Gatherer to Agricilture, to City states, to Feualdism, Capitalism and then RBE as the next step. No Storm is just another closed minded asshole.

[Leveer13]

@valhala56 LOL dude, be sure you watch the next EPIC FAIL video we are uploading. It's highly ironic you brought up Mad Max.

[christianTZM]

and if the policy of zero coersion ever changes in the zeitgeist movement, then im they can count me out. im sure pretty much all of the other members feel the exact same way. is that hard to believe?

[christianTZM]

seeeeeee. ZERO COERSIONNNNN. But think what you wanna think. Go ahead and twist the motives of a 94 year old man whos doing all he can to help his planet before he passes away if you must. Thanks Neil. And thanks Aaron for helping.

[Leveer13]

I posted a companion video to this one as a further reply to him.

[xchainlinkx]

its funny...because in reality, stormcloudsgathering is the one really instigating all of this tension...and accuses us of being for violence.

[Leveer13]

@xchainlinkx That is fairly common to many Libertarians who insist they follow the "non-aggression" principle.

[briano8713]

Thanks for this! If the ZM really has a commitment to pluralism, I look forward to seeing if whole systems analysis can really tunnel through various cost barriers and achieve radical efficiency. Cheers!