The Soviet-German War, 1941-1945: Myths and Realities

[hungarygator]

I think he is right when he says that Zhukov is like Grant......the "fumbling butcher" as he was dubbed by his own men for getting so many of them killed. The main strategy employed by both was to use little imagination, plow straight ahead in one frontal assault after another and take absolutely massive casualties. Yeah they both won, but they each had a lot more resources to begin with and both of their armies were badly mauled at the end.

[hungarygator]

the US military mobilized 8.8 million in WWII? I've seen several sources say the true number was more like in excess of 16 million. Given the sheer size of those forces (eg 1300 warships, several air fleets, 56 divisions in Western Europe alone not counting the Italian campaign or the army or marine forces deployed in the pacific, I find the claim of 8.8 impossible to believe.

[mrgeebaby86]

Wow what an awesome lecture, i cant believe Glantz was a last minute step in for this and that the lecture was unscripted, obviously a historian of top class who is excited by the subject!

[A24964105]

Superb presentation

[MrBlacklunar]

GERMANS, they dont learn from their history!!

[MrPHAELAN]

@MrBlacklunar What the hell are you talking about?

[MrBlacklunar]

@MrPHAELAN oh come on! the teutonic knoghts inveaded russia, got kicke out. WW1, germans invade russia again! kicked out, Then Hitler invades, same thing!

[Mcplkelly]

@MrBlacklunar The Germans won the Eastern Front in WWI. Lost the war in the west and thus the war on the whole. WWII was a bit of a reversal of roles in that regard.

[ThugCologne]

this was indeed in any aspects THE WAR of human history and WE, not just russians and germans, could learn so much from this...

[alanheath]

I like that Col. Glantz mentions 'unknown' battles but many of these 'unknown' battles are nowhere near as unknown as he claims.

[alanheath]

The Soviets certainly did forcibly recruit as they moved west. For example, most of the Polish troops which attempted to relieve Warsaw in September 1944 were conscripted farmers with little or no training and that is why such a complicated operation as an unsupported river assault failed.

[alanheath]

I very much disagree with Col. Glantz's opinion on Warsaw. It is well known that Model threw back the Soviets advance. The failure perceived is that of lack of support, particularly for the Allied planes flying from Italy which were denied landing rights until quite late in the uprising. Added to this is the untrue propaganda that the Soviets sat and waited for the uprising to fail. Of course Stalin wanted it to fail - and what the rebels were thinking expecting support is beyond me.

[TheLoyalOfficer]

@alanheath That may be so, but Stalin should not have allowed the German Air Force to fly over Warsaw. It was a very cynical and cruel thing for him to do, and I understand why Poles despise Russians because of that move. Perhaps it would have been difficult to attack in support due to supply lines, etc. (although that is a dubious claim in and of itself) but the Soviets could have done a lot more to help the uprising.

AT LEAST shoot down the Stukas!

[alanheath]

@TheLoyalOfficer The unfortunate fact missed by many is that why should the Soviets have helped the insurgents. Stalin's aim was to occupy Poland - therefore aiding them was not in his interests. The best for Stalin was to let them fight it out with the Germans whilst they did his dirty work for him. This is something ignored in most circles. That is why no landing rights were given to western planes until that aid was of little consequence but was a political guesture.

[alanheath]

Mr Glantz says it is an unexpected pleasure for him to speak. I don't suppose he will see this but it is also an unexpected pleasure for me to see this speech! His work on Stalingrad is excellent!

[kimpunkrock]

My grandfather was striped of his rank for treating the Russian POW;s too good as the captain of a Russian POW camp run by the Germans. he was punished by being sent to the Russian Front as an infantry man. My Grandfather was a good man.

[kimpunkrock]

thank you for this and the amazing channel!

[martynrobin121]

The European Axis invasion of the Soviet Union ended in disaster from the start with the Battle of Moscow 1941, Also the Battle of Stalingrad was the major turning point and even Hitler himself said Kursk would decide who wins the war.

[TheLoyalOfficer]

Excellent presentation except for one thing: I really have to take issue with him in regards to the ridiculous offensives by the Red Army in 1941-1942. The Russians should have husbanded their strength and waited. Had they done that, the war would probably have been shorter. Obviously, if you are encircled you have to break out, but otherwise keep your powder dry until the right moment.

It was NOT necessary to throw away precious lives and equipment!

[alanheath]

@TheLoyalOfficer I agree with you, particularly with regard to the absurd attack in the Crimea but as Colonel Glantz points out even Zhukov did not realise how weak the Germans were. Of course it may have been possible to move those forces north - but bear in mind how weak the transport infrastructure was.

[TheLoyalOfficer]

@alanheath Fair enough but those counteroffensives were absolutely retarded.

Soooo many fine young Russian men. Dead for NOTHING.

[alanheath]

@TheLoyalOfficer Absolutely.  It may bother you and I, it did not make the slightest bit of difference to Stalin.

[TheLoyalOfficer]

@alanheath I could see the ones attempting to break out of pockets, or those trying to bust open pockets, but that's a different situation than the flat-out attacks such as at Vyazma in 1941 or probably two dozen other suicidal offensives.

The presenter implies that this "attrictional strategy" was necessary for the USSR. I totally disagree.

[alanheath]

@TheLoyalOfficer Certainly tens of thousands of people must have broken out of pockets as the encircling forces must have been very weak because of the size of those pockets. However I think very few people could read a map so would probably have gone round in circles not knowing where to turn. Also captivity offered the chance of getting fed - Soviet troops did not know yet how badly POWs were treated.

I also disagree that attrition was necessary.

[TheLoyalOfficer]

@alanheath Bottom line, as I can see from the numbers, is that the Soviets should have done MUCH BETTER than they did in WWII.

So much of that suffering was unnecessary.

[graciemaemarie11]

@alanheath yeah, he was almost as inhuman as my ex wife...

[alanheath]

@graciemaemarie11 Fortunately both are now 'ex -es'!

[Waterflux]

Glantz is perhaps the best American historian available today who specializes in the Soviet-German War. He did get a very nice break with the collapse of the USSR.

Yup ... the Soviet total mobilization was single biggest factor in deciding the outcome of 1941. As a matter of fact, the entire Allied camp was more ruthless about total mobilization compared to Germany. It does not matter how many brilliant tacticians and soldiers one has, if his war economy and strategy are poorly laid out.

[Scientisticsoviet]

@Waterflux Indeed. If you look at figures for military equipment production growth in the USSR in the pre war years you see a massive percentage increase in arms production the few years before (something like 7000% over the low level in 1928). It was so massive that economic growth slowed because less was being invested into investment goods (ie. steel, cement, machine parts, etc.)

[FartyFace]

Ha I love this guy. Reminds me of my pissed off grand dad. IM NOT GAY I SWEAR!!

[Ma3gau]

its not myths, its goebbels/american propaganda during the cold war. funny but there are lots of people who like goebbel's propaganda nowdays. Europe wants Hitler back thx god they are unable because they are weak.

[Avalon400]

The "God of Jacob" must be mighty angry with Texans. Look at how they are roasting in that non-stop heatwave. Must a little taste of Hell out there !

[Avalon400]

9/11 gave the American a tiney little example of what war really is. I hope America and its allies think twice and have some reverence for human suffering B4 they bomb the crap out of some country's civilian population.

[CSATexan]

@Avalon400

You mean like the bombing of Japan.

Well The BOMBING of japan was a tiny little example of what they did to China, the Philippians, Korea, and a few others. That is what you get when you threathen to murder all allied POWs.

[Avalon400]

9/11 gave the American a tiney little example of what war can reall is. I hope America and its allies think twice and have some reverence for human suffering B4 they bomb the crap out of some country's civilian population.

[patsyd80]

wow so the great normandy landings that we have had stuffed down our necks was nothing but a side show against 2nd rate troops? interesting.

[jhnb12876]

wow! great stuff!

[ararat123457]

My great Grand pa was a colonel with SMERSH during WW2.

His name was Michael Ambartsum Petrosyan

[mann8942]

Helping the soviets defeat the germans has result in 45 years of cold war for USA.

What a prize !!

Mind all wars, losses, suffering in these middle time.

[zeb1977]

Just want to thank the US Army's War College for all the resources they provide free of charge to those interested in military history.

It's a joy to hear Col.Glantz speak. My only regret is this wasn't the six hour version ;)

More seriously, many many thanks for sharing this.

[tranmere789]

Another example how Russian data is full of fails. The loss numbers of Leningrad Front for 5th of July-31st July is 40 129. But when one historian added the losses of each units of Leningrad Front, he got the sum - 58 125. Krivosheev gave total loss number 96 375 - hardly half of real losses (over 130 000 in Karelian Isthmus even before 18th of July 44, they lost also 45 000 before 10th of July in Karelian Front ).

In many battles russian loss numbers are about 30-60% of real figures.

[werkzeug0]

@tranmere789 Russian data are very precise compared to German one

[tranmere789]

Glantz has made some excellent studies of eastern front. However he still trust too much those official Russian military studies made by e.g Krivosheev. Perhaps he flatters Krivosheev to made him study more of those battles never published in Russia.

One example. The losses of Leningrad Front Vyborg-Petrozavodsk Offensive (10 June - 9 Aug. 44) are ridiculous low: only 294 APV's and 311 aircraft. However Soviets lost about 910 APV's and at least 1020 aircraft during that period.

[werkzeug0]

@tranmere789 Yes, Glantz MUST trust you.

[procopro]

Good stuff - great author

[czarmike414]

Thank you for posting this and a tremendous thanks to David Glantz on the hard work and effort that he has put forth.

[Gloopular]

Thanks - very informative.

[hairwayz]

Great to see David speaking after reading his books so long. Thanks for posting.

[Zukhov1945]

Not gonna watch it, but i say that russians defeated 80% of german army. End of story.

[rmstorms]

@Zukhov1945 Thanks for gracing us with your presence. You should listen to this guy and better yet, read his books on the Eastern Front. This man meticulously researches the archives and records of both sides of this War. I haven't always agreed with his conclusions, but his facts are all referenced. I've never detected any bias in his books, which is much more than you can say about German and Russian history.

[Scientisticsoviet]

@rmstorms He does seem pretty learned and accurate. His ideas presented here seem to be consistent with what I have read on related economic matters on the USSR in the pre-war years (Farm to Factory by Robert C. Allen)

[TheCommunistColin]

@rmstorms Well hey, considering that Barbarossa was the largest invasion in the history of warfare - with 3.5mil initial combatants and using up many more as replacements to keep the front steady - and the fact that the SU was effectively the only allied power on this front, he's right. And Hitler always did send more east than west. For example, the month just before the Battle of the Bulge, German industry constructed approx. 2,000 tanks and guns. 1,800 were sent east.

[catalinux007leiro]

@Zukhov1945 i want to see russia fighting so many fronts like germany

[GalerieDegeler]

@catalinux007leiro

And I guess losing like Germany too, right.

[HelenaXVI]

@catalinux007leiro "Many fronts"? Can you be more specific? What were the battles of importance there? By the time Germany invaded Russia, Western Europe was conquered. Stalin begged the Allies to open a second front right from 1941 and it only came in 1944. By that time the Germans had been beaten at Moscow, Leningrad, Stalingrad and Kursk. And during D-Day, the Soviets were launching a far greater operation - Bagration. The USSR did the dirty job virtually alone. Just face it.

[klaabu99]

@HelenaXVI

germany wasn't able to send all his armies to russia they had to keep big part of it in ocupied europe and in africa

[crist2000a]

@klaabu99 Indeed. Where did then millions germans die then? Fighting France resistance?

[jigglypiggly]

@HelenaXVI You underestimate the massive contributions of the lend-lease act.

[jigglypiggly]

@HelenaXVI Africa wasn't a second front? The fuck?

[100milnic]

@jigglypiggly Even Rommel said Hitler didn't think much about the African campaign, Rommel claimed he could only get the bare interest & support from Berlin. Rommel further said by 1941, Hitler was totally focussed on east Europe, & the reality is three quarters of all German casualties between 1941 -1945 occured on the eastern front. Understanding the sheer scale is the key issue with Nazi/Soviet war, the west has always downplayed it cause of subsequent Cold War.

[HelenaXVI]

@catalinux007leiro And don't forget that Germany was not fighting alone, they were aided by Hungary, Romania, Croatia, Finland, Slovakia and volunteers from virtually every European country, like France, Netherlands and even Russia itself. There goes you "heroic Germany" myth.... down the toilet.... where it belongs.

[catalinux007leiro]

@HelenaXVI

heroic Germany mith??? are you insane? Germany was all destroyed in WW1, and in 20 years they make another one. US is bankrupt in a war with some poorest nations on globe. Germany stood against the most powerful nations on globe US, Russia, France, UK with allies like...Hungary, Croatia, Romania, slovakia???? and yea, all people addmit that Germany was a mith.

[TheCommunistColin]

@catalinux007leiro The U.S. wasn't bankrupted from the war with Germany. It was doing quite well in the decade following the end of the war. It was essentially the same problem as today, a big debt bubble which burst. And this is in 1929, *ten years* after the war ended.

[klaabu99]

@HelenaXVI

are u really so stupid???

did u watched this video or just writing comments here?

[HelenaXVI]

@klaabu99 You should learn some English too :-)

[klaabu99]

@HelenaXVI

nah ... had couple lessons ... but didn't like it much ...

[Aliea5c]

@HelenaXVI I agree.

[alanheath]

@HelenaXVI I think the size of those 'volunteers' has been exaggerated and valuable only for propaganda purposes. Nontheless the huge size of the losses of Hungarians and Romanians - both greater than those of British losses - is something that is often forgotten as Colonel Glantz points out.

[satanic666sonic]

@HelenaXVI what are you trying to imply? that Germanys allies were equal in terms of strength to "the Allies" ??

[preemptivestrike20]

@Zukhov1945 Children should stfu.

[Zukhov1945]

@preemptivestrike20 Fag should STFU.

[preemptivestrike20]

@Zukhov1945 Virgin who jerks to soviet propaganda should stfu.....