Heres the truth everybody- nobody can know how human choice in salvation ties in with God knowing everything- being completely sovereign. There are aspects of both which are true. It is simply beyond our understanding. Just follow Christ, place your faith in him till the end.
It's interesting why you don't see all the so called Arminian preachers ridicule and put down the Calvinists but you see so many self proclaimed prideful elect Calvinists slam everyone who doesn't believe their way through their interpretation of the scriptures. The world doesn't need satan distracting them, it has Christians fighting amongst each other. What an example to my non Christian loved ones that I want to see saved. Election? Paul had a choice when he was knocked of his horse anyway
@patriotsfan1379 There is no logic in your view, nor scriptural basis. A person is not a murderer until they've committed murder. Likewise one is not a sinner until they've sinned. Rom 6:23 and John 8 shows you incorrect
This guy is a fool that doesn't want to take account for his own actions. He can play the blame the rest of his blasphemous life. Take account for your sin and choose Jesus Christ. "pepsi or coke" like he said, lucifer or Jesus it's YOUR choice.
Arminian thinking is man musters up faith on his own(with just a little help from the Holy Spirit) and then decides to follow Jesus while he is still a lost man.Then he takes his man generated faith and trades it to God 4 salvation by saying a prayer asking Jesus into his heart,but the Bible says no one is able to believe in Jesus in a lost state.A baby can only cry once he's born,a man can only cry out to God after God makes him born again 1st,neither birth is controlled by the one being born.
born again Christianity is given by the loving amazing grace of Jesus Christ. do you understand that what you teach is to do what thou wilt. because it's up to god to chose you? "do what thou wilt" is from Aliester Crowley of the satanic church. do you actually believe that by telling god "you made the tree of knowledge so you are to blame" will save you? this is wrong, you take a wonderful thing and corrupt it with you own Paganistic theories and ideology.
It is true that without God we have no choice. But God has given us the ability to choose. That is why Jesus gave us the great commission and why 1 Peter 3:15 says that we must always be ready to give an account for the hope that is in us.
When Paul preached, it says in several places that he reasoned with the people. He did not simply point to a select few and say "You guys are Christians. Come with me and I'll teach you about God".
I guess it is human nature to make "everything" so complicated. Love GOD to the best of your ability - GOD will either accept you for who you are or he will not.
"Can we choose God? Dead people don't choose anything"
Wrong. In Deut.30Moses RIGHTLY explains that choosing life was "Not too difficult, NOR out of their reach". Moses RIGHTLY explains that man CAN "Choose life" or "death". Regeneration & Lazarus are a wrong dichotomy, he was ALREADY A BELIEVER, his ressurection was written as an example of Christ being The RESSURECTION, not for describing Regeneration. The PRODIGAL SON RIGHTLY defines one being DEAD & then REPENTING & returning WILLINGLY.
"Free Will comes from Erasmus"? Wrong. Free Will isn't defined as "doing WHATEVER you want" as Driscoll defines it. “ "Free Will” is a philosophical term of art for a particular sort of capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives.
Stating "DEAD PEOPLE DONT MAKE ANY DECISIONS!" Doesnt prove "Free Will" in nonexistant.
as always, this man is an IDIOT. He has no proper understanding of the nature of "will"... I'd suggest he read a bit of Crowley's "Magick in Theory and Practice."
I can't see why you need to preach the gospel if God in his sovereignty is going to choose his elect anyway? It almost seems arrogance on the Calvanist view to think that God needs you to spread the Gospel if he's already decided who's in and out. And did Adam and Eve not get to choose? and what about Satan did he not get to desire to be worshipped? Choices or free will choices????
@samwarren74 we preach the gospel 1-because GOD ordains it to be preached[thats simple]2- GOD has decided to save men by the foolishness of preaching [faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of GOD]3- the gospel is good news to those who are being saved but it is also commdemnation to those who won't believe4- adam and eve were predestined to fall the bible says JESUS is the lamb slain before the foundation of the world[meaning there was a plan ] 5- satan is just a tool in all of this
@patriotsfan1379 Thanks for your reply. So what you are saying is that everything happens according to the council of his will... therefore Satan as a "tool" isn't guilty of anything since he is only a puppet doing the will of God and therefore his predesdined end in the Lake of Fire is a bit harsh considering Gods attributes of Love kindness Goodness Justice etc. And what about Matt 26:39 Yet not as I will, but as you will..... Jesus was fully God Fully man right?
@samwarren74 I never said satan was not guilty!!the problem here I think is that you think responsability presuposes freedom but thats not so!! we, satan are responsible because GOD says we are whether you think thats fair or not is not GODS problem it is yours!!and mines also!as far as math 26; is concerned that passage alone cannot be taken in and of itself to teach freewill !!there are other places in the bible that talks about GOD putting in us the will and the desire to do HIS will
@samwarren74 it would take an enormously pridefull heart to think that anyone can do the will of GOD apart fron the HOLY SPIRT and GOD given faith which compels us to act JESUS said apart from me you ""can do nothing"" !!! I wonder if you believe this tho I think not
@patriotsfan1379 if your going to get personal don't bother replying. My questions are genuine. But to help me understand, you believe that everything we think and do is according to the council of his will, good and bad even our responsibility is governed by him because we have no control over any area of our actions and thoughts.
@samwarren74 no our thoughts are evil all the time but GOD only allows certain actions to take place if and when those actions are according to HIS plan, to either help us in our journey or condem us in our actions either way all creatures can only do what GOD has ordained to that will further HIS plans for our lives but also for this universe in all GOD will be gloryfied either in saving or in condeming the person we and everything is made to bring glory to GOD
@samwarren74 the the bible says we are ""sinfull"" I know nobody likes to think of themselves as utterly sinfull we like to think that we can do good and that ""our actions count"" we like to take credit for everything and anything thats called pride!!
@patriotsfan1379 ok I see where your coming from but does this mean you believe we have free choices rather than free will or is everything done according to the council of his will? the reason I say this is because I still fail to see how on this view guilt of sin lies with mankind especially if you want to bring in the "can't do anything without jesus" verse, I hope the question makes sense.
I understand the sovereignty argument that says we don't have total free will because this is only available to God ala grudem carson sproul but this still doesn't mean we have now free choices does it? Because by implication why would God by the council of his will ordain man to sin only so he could send his son to die to redeem that which he ordained to sin in the first place and that is why I asked the Original Question 1 month ago.
@samwarren74 all of this ,this universe all the people that are living or have ever lived were made for the glory of GOD!! we are decieved when we think this was made for man !!!and in this plan GOD from eternity past is showcasing all of HIS atributes !!even the ones we don't like the ones we tend to supress like HIS justice and wrath HIS holyness !!and for this to happen HE uses people places and things!!
@samwarren74 we sin because we are sinfull we are not sinfull because we sin!! and because we sin we are guilty! sin in and of itself brings guilt! adam sin and he hid from GOD why ? there is no freewill!! even GOD cannot choose against HIS nature GOD cannot sin !! we sin because that is our nature but even those choices are ruled by GOD yet it is you who commit them therefore you are guilty this GOD universe made to gloryfie HIM even when it means that GOD may send someone to hell
i like Mark, a lot. But I don't find this video good preaching of the gospel. Christ conquered death! Even dead people have the opportunity to be given life through Christ. That is the job of an evangelist, to make others know that life is with Christ and never without him. So I'm not a fan of him saying that dead people don't make choices. They are making choices - just really bad ones! To remain spiritually dead by not seeking Christ - that needs to be made clear and I think he shys away.
@senaitluv How can he shy away when the entire clip states that people cannot choose eternal life because we are eternally dead, until Jesus chooses us? That's the entire clip, and its true. Dead people do not choose anything regarding life and death. They just are. We re utterly depraved, so how can a person who has no goodness choose the supreme good? He can't. He chooses God after God calls him forth.
@djking2d I feel like there are so many bad choices we make everyday and they keep us dead. Like people we hang out with. For some people the jobs they work at. You know. When you say dead people can't choose anything - he take's away our free will to choose Christ over..well, everything else. God gave us that free will - and apart of our sinful nature is thinking freedom apart from God could mean anything. Even sinners feel love and want to reconcile with God - is that Jesus choosing them?
See the following verses. All are taken in context:
Ephesians 2:1,4-8,10; Colossians 2:13-14; Romans 5:6-10, and John 6:44
Any translation of the Bible will suffice, although I recommend NIV (1984), ESV, NKJV or NASB. The NLT is helpful for the spirit of the message in common language, though. I suggest Biblegateway's website. It allows one to compare multiple translations side-by-side.
Pastor Mark addressed the choices we make in the sermon clip.
@senaitluv By sinners, do you mean nonchristians? I assume that is what you mean. Everyone feels love, and wants intimacy. Not everyone wants reconciliation with God, or even accepts that God exists, as the Bible states. or at all. So, I don't know what you were trying to say. Could you clarify?
@wpcooper1978 romans 1 talks about how God revealed himself to people through natural things like the moon,stars,etc. man knows there is something greater than man. Its in everyone. But being born in our sinfulness we dont acknowledge God and run into all kinds of evil and God lets us. But he shows mercy on whom ever he wants like romans 9 would say and act 2:21 is scriptural if u know the context. Them guys were being killed and tortured for what they believe. pretty big statement
@dymez100 Firstly, the Acts verse, how can this be taken out of context? It is a sermon delivered by Peter, and a quotation from the prophet Joel. Isn't this a pretty clear statement? Romans 1:18-28 in summary says God made himself known to humankind through creation and humankind chose not acknowledge God or worship him or glorify him, so God handed them over to their sinful desires.
My view is if human beings do not have free will then humankind has every right to blame God for everything wrong on the earth, war, famine, poverty ... if God can impose his will on to humankind, then why doesn't he impose his will on our governments, nations, and communities? If we don't have free will, then we would have to assume temptation does not exist, and that two lines from the Lord's Prayer have to be removed.
Why do most Christians want to so desperately impart free-will to man when it's clearly not Biblical? The Bible repeatedly states over and over that God chose us from "before the foundations of the earth," that he "predestined us according to the purpose of his will," and that "he upholds all things by the word of his power." Paul says "It is God who is at work in you," and that he "predestined every good work." Jesus says "No one can come to me unless the it is granted to him by the Father."
@budmanguy Because they're false Christians. What did Christ say about these imposters? "For many will come to me saying, did I not prophesy in your name? and create miracles? And I will say to them, I never knew you."
@budmanguy Because if we have free will, then homosexuals, since they "chose" to be that way, won't fall under constitutional protection, because we can simply "choose to be normal." The obvious problems with this are 1) we don't actually have full free will, 2) homosexuality isn't a choice, 3) even IF the first two were true, homosexuals still should enjoy the full rights and privileges of everyone else. Everyone is to be treated equally under the law, even if we choose to be different.
@budmanguy This is complete nonsense. This makes a complete farce out of what Paul wrote in Romans 1:18 - 28. In which he states people knew of God but chose not acknowledge him as God, and he therefore handed them over to their desires. You're implying that Jesus is unapproachable. And you're also implying, "That anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved," Acts 2:21 is not valid scriptural teaching.
Marky Mark....you're a tad confused....also I love you quote the "great" Luther...same guy who followed the gospel message of grace? According to Mark Driscoll...Luther was 'chosen' and doesn't make many decisions...question is did Luther choose to make these comments below?
"We ought to take revenge on the Jews and kill them."
"Now just behold these miserable, blind, and senseless people."
@crustomatic16 and why do you not take the trunk out of your eye first ""maybe than you can help your brother with his splinter!!! he who is without sin let him cast the first stone!! I guess you think you are better than luther 1 of the greatest theological minds of all times huh?
Tom Brady is the man as are you! You are such the theologian. You burnt me! Rise your right hand...now pat yourself on the back as you have done a great job. Luther had more the one trunks, planks, specs, dots...as do I...if I make comments like Luther did...please do not follow me as I try following Christ.
The only reason Driscoll is SO ADAMANT on preaching that "Free Will" is non-existant is because he "loves the doctrine of Election" & John Calvin. & The "5-Points" of calvinism CANNOT allow Man to be able to repent after being convicted by the Holy Spirit using his "Free Will" otherwise their doctrine of Total Depravity & ELECTION are out the window. If they're out the window, so is their "Free Ride" onto Salvation
"Can we choose God? Dead people don't choose anything" -Driscoll
Wrong. In Deut.30:1-20 Moses RIGHTLY explains that choosing life was "Not too difficult, NOR out of [their] reach". Moses writes man CAN "Choose life" or "death". Regeneration & Lazarus are a wrong dichotomy, he was ALREADY A BELIEVER,,, his ressurection was written as an example of Christ being The Ressurection, not for describing Regeneration. The PRODIGAL SON RIGHTLY defines one being DEAD & then REPENTING & returning WILLINGLY.
"Free Will comes from Erasmus"? Wrong. Free Will isn't defined as "doing WHATEVER you want" as Driscoll defines it. “
"Free Will” is a philosophical term of art for a particular sort of capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives.
We argue about Scripture instead of living out the Scripture. Our mission is to go and preach the gospel to the ends of the earth, not to go on youtube and argue about doctrine. God looks on us, sees our pathetic bickering in the body and dismisses us as immature babies crapping our spiritual diapers. Stop arguing and go lead souls to Him.
@pcruze81 Can you lead souls to Him without right doctrine? "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed that form of doctrine which was delivered you." Romans 6:17
Lazarus being dead is not a correlation to us being dead in sin either. Spiritual death =/= physical death--this is a bad philosophical argument, much like Colossians 2:8 warns about--based on traditions of men and the elementary principles of this world.
Don't be fooled, in Mark's consistent view---god predestined the fall, predestined you to be born a sinner, and predestined to send most of humanity to hell because of this... wicked, I feel bad for satan in Calvinism.
0:00-0:35 seconds might be true---but it's only a half-truth, Luther liked a lot of Augustine's doctrines, Augustine was a former Manichaean Gnostic for 9 years(and he also introduced infant baptism, worship of Mary, and many other Catholic doctrines never taught before).
Try reading the Ante-Nicene church, this debate started well before Luther... and the Gnostics taught fatalism, and the church taught free will--not like Mark is defining it though, he's mis-representing it.
Dead people don't make any decisions! This ones used a lot. Dead people can not do BAD things either so it's clear that there's some limitations to this analogy. MD is a good communicator but he's just so wrong here. Notice how much he calls on Luther and Augustine. He has to cuz that's the only place he'll find support for his position.
@faithandpractice did you even watch this video? Because Mark quite clearly describes what he means by dead. Spiritually dead and physically dead are both very different things my friend.
@ODM108 All the same, he is pressing the analogy into a service for which it was not intended. To say that mans state of spiritual death makes it impossible for one to respond to God without first being made regenerate is simply taking that to a place that the Bible does not.
@ODM108 Well it's easy to say that but the reality of the matter is that the Bible only "backs it up" when it's twisted to support the position. One thing is without debate. The entire history of the church disagreed with Marks position until the 4th. century. It's sad really. Mark is such a good communicator and he's simply wrong on this point.
@ODM108 Read the Ephesians quote on this, it's goes along something like "It is not by the will of man that they come to God, but by the will of God". How can someone search for something that In this world Is invisible to the dead eye. I think the analogy of being dead is perfect for someone who is without Christ. Christ Is what makes you alive brother!
Yeah, God created the majority of mankind to fry forever in Hell. Only the "elect" get to escape that happily in heavem. If thats true, Christ is a big failure and God is not loving.
@westernlions Chris is only a failure if He tries to save someone but cant becauese they wont let Him. nope. my God actually saves His elect. Jesus actualy paid in full the sins of His people and saves them. not just leaves it up the the sinner to 'choose'. so Jesus only fails if He tries to save someone but cant. prais the Lord that isnt the case.
@westernlions God has choosen to save a countless amount of people by dying for them and actually saveing them. God is not obligated to save every single human bieng on the entire planet. only sinners will be in hell for breaking Gods law paying for there sins. we are not innocent people. put your faith in Christ and He will show you His amazing love and grant you eternal life.
There's nothing a person can possibly do to merit being eternally barbequed. You people turn God into an eternal Hitler and try to desperately defend his good character. And no burning people forever is NOT a "just" thing to do, it is barberic.
Amusingly, hell is not even a biblical teaching. It just a christian doctrine made up in the 5th century and then perpetuated in the dark ages like crazy. The words translated hell in popular bible versions do not mean hell at all.
There's nothing a person can possibly do to merit being eternally barbequed. Infinite punishment for a finite life of sins and mistakes is illogical and unblblical. Even Gods people, the Hebrews, do not believe in it. Judism has no concept of hell. Come on, use your critical thinking and common sense. Stop blindly believing whatever your pastors say.
Free Will has nothing to do with Unlimited Choice... Not even God has that ability, God cannot Choose to Lie, but that in no way limits His Free Will. Free Will deals with the ability to Freely Choose between all possible actions.
humans do not HAVE to sin, therefore, choosing to sin, is a Free Will decision.
Maybe Driscoll should further examine church history. Free will did not start with Erasmus. It has been taught by the Eastern Orthodox church from apostolic times right through to today. many evangelicals, especially in the US are ignorant of the EOC. I have only just begun to learn about the EOC and their doctrines. They reject eternal hell fire, election and other Western doctrines that were formed long after apostolic times.
@brendos444 Amen! (on Free Will existing before Erasmus) The sad thing is, Driscoll knows what he just said was a lie, and he didn't even blink. A simple google search, on the early church and free will, results in numerous early Church fathers who believed in Free Will (infact I know of none that reject it). Also, Mark, if dead people don't choose anything, then they don't choose to sin either, therefore they are not accountable, and your god is not my God.
American evangelicalism is a very strange thing. Most think that Catholicism and Protestantism are the only forms of Christianity and are simply ignorant of Othodoxy - a much older tradition than both and certainly much older than the reformation. Many don't know about how the Bible came to be. Some speak of the bible as if it fell like manna from heaven. I've found it so liberating researching about orthodoxy. now knowing that an ancient tradition rejects hell fire and substitutionary atonement
@brendos444 Orthodoxy does not reject Substituionary Atonement, it rejects Penal Substitutionary Atonement, it holds to (AFAIK) Ransom Theory Substitutionary Atonement.
Also not sure where you get that it rejects Hell from, I will have to look into that. I also spent many months looking into EO, but rejected it on the grounds of Idolatry (Icons), and the worship of Angels (Praying to Saints, and Angels).
I also have Coptic TV and they are SOO Pharsaical.
@ChristusVlCTOR Agreed on penal sub atonement. Read up on hell. They do not reject hell per se. They reject the Western version of hell which is literal fire pit where people get tortured forever. EO believe that hell is a reality one creates for themselves when they reject God's love and grace. Hate burns inside of them. The things Jesus says about hell are merely metaphors not concrete realities. RE the Coptics: there will be self-righteous ppl in every church and denomination.
@brendos444 btw, yes I think the prayer to other beings like angels probably crept into the church over the years. This would not have been something that the early Jewish Christians (that is the Apostles) would have been comfortable with. but i don't think there is worship of icons. This is a misunderstanding i think. I'll have to read more about it.
If I thought some men were created for hell I could no longer follow. The thought that some are created for hell is Evil and G-d is not evil. Elect-predestination is only taught by Sons of perdition
There is a difference from physically dead and spiritually dead.Using Lazarus is not staying within the context of being spiritually dead.BTW,It was the command that brought Lazarus back to life.He wasn't made alive first and then heard the command.The command made him alive.Also,just because two people wrote a book on freewill doesn't settle the issue.The Bible does and is clear that God gives man as well as angels freewill.I challenge Mark or Larry Wessels on this issue.
i agree with the exegesis of lazerous,although it is possible it has more than one meaning, though that is not clear. what is clear, is that God must do something before we are able to come to him. he has to open our eyes. if it is up to us and our free will then grace isnt grace. its no longer based not on merit, so no man can boast, its no longer a gift that is given without any thought about what people have done. it becomes something we earn through mustering ourselves up,
through mustering up to a climatic "free will decision on our own" where as God then comes into the picture later, entering us, after we choose him. that is works salvation. that we muster ourselves to that point through studying various things, pondering our life, working ourselves up into a sincere brokeness over our sin that doesnt seem to be possible according to the bible, and finally, choosing God. on our own. that is preposterous. show me one verse on free will
one verse, in context. a proof text please. and if we have free will, then naturally we can lose our salvation, you must believe. because God cant "keep" us, and only those who endure to the end will be saved and like 9 other verses that say the same thing, and if God cant keep us even though john 6: 36 says that he wont lose one he came to save, which would be a violation of free will, "HE WONT lose us" not "WE WONT" lose ourselves. it is a violation of free will.
our being given a new heart with new desires. also a violation of free will. though it is clear in scriptures. these old desires we had were in fact, sinful, but our desires none the less. when we become christian, those our over-ridden, and our new heart produces new desires. if we have free will in heaven, we can fall like the angels, although God says we wont. You cant fly can you? That would be because God placed scientific limitations on your will. gravity. no matter how bad u
you will to fly, you cannot. and that is not an off-topic example. it is one of many examples of how /God has restricted your will. you do have free will. but it is limited. it has restrictions. one of those restrictions is that you are bound to choose only sin. in Christ, and Christ only, do we become free to make God glorifying decisions other than sin. only God or man can have free will not both. God ordains Christians for specific work such as evangelism...
such as preaching the gospel, and oither things only ordained for christians. even if God can foresee, he is now limited, based on our decisions. Well who do I want to write the scriptures? Ok, well I cannot use johnny rockets, because i can see ahead of time that he is not going to choose me, so my will is now limited in the fact that their our some people i can choose, like paul, to write the bible, but others i cannot use, because i see ahead of time they dont choose me.
gods entire will would be limited, based upon seeing ahead of time which people would and wouldnt accept him. and he would be limited to only using certain people, the ones who accept him, to accomplish his redemptive plan. you have just role reversed God being free to man being free. it cannot be both. and inherited sin, is also a violation of free will. im sorry but your choices may seem genuine, however there is much going on behind the scenes that u dont realize.
What about Similes? I am quite sure there is a host of literary devices recognized by teachers-just have a hard time speaking of someone dead whom is alive. Did Jesus walk around trying to eat some grass or whatever lambs eat? He was the lamb of God, right? Well, I am confused now. I remember learning he was not just the lamb of God sacrificed but also the scapegoat left unprotected to wander until devoured by wolves? How can he be both? I am a Calvinist and we need to be thoroughly biblical!
the will does not make choices it is the mind that makes the choice than the will acts so if the carnal mind cannot submit itself to GOD and it is at enmity with GOD because it is a slave to sin if the mind its fallen than the will must necessarily be also fallen therefore not free
You missed it right from the beginning, Only god has free will, because ONLY God can DO whatever he wants. Then you say that we have choices, but If I want to be 9 ft tall, I cannot. You mix things under one's control and one not under one's control and base th argument on that. this speaks of power and scope, not ability to function within one's power and scopeA change of skin color or height is NOT a doing and therefore not involved in will
Some of you people that refuse to take scripture at it's face value, because it doesn't make sense to you, or you simply don't like it, or that's not what you think God should do, you people are useless asses! You need to repent of relying so heavily on the wretched whore that is reason and put some faith in the Word. Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?
You're right, take it at face value.. look up what Romans 9 is in context to, the audience, and the Scriptures that Paul quotes. It's not to "rely on reason"--its to understand the truth, and the truth is-Calvinists interpret Romans 9 just like the fatalistic Gnostics of Paul's time, and the true Ante-Nicene church interpreted it completely different. I understand your issue with taking things literally, but make sure you're interpreting Scripture with itself.
EVERYONE! Read the things Paul quotes in the OT---because guess what! Romans 9 is about nations, not individuals being predestined to heaven or hell. Again, LOOK up the FULL quotes of what Paul is quoting from the OT in context---it couldn't get any simpler than that.
"my people"--isn't individuals predetermined to heaven/hell, and it doesn't say anything about salvation.
Did you look up Paul's references? The entire passage.. go look it up.
Look up Jacob/Esau-they are nations. This entire passage is laying out how God predestined Israel, and the lineage HE chose before time, and chose to give more mercy to over another---to allow His Messiah to come about. (My brethren of the flesh)-Jews, Paul is explaining the prophecies to Jewish Christians
Wrong. Did you actually do what I asked in the comment? Or just come to give the same cry that all Calvinists do...
Jacob and Esau represent nations--go look up the original text Paul used from the OT. Esau never literally served Jacob either.
Genesis 25:23 "And the LORD said to her, Two nations are in your womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from your bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger."
@droptozro even though he was talking about two nations than he is not talking about 2 nations in rom 9 even if he was but he isn't there are entire passages that talk about election while you can only come up with single verses taken out \of context been throgh all of thi before heard all the arguments
Yes it can be won.. you haven't heard all the arguments because you just obviously got shown that verse had nothing to do with individual salvation.
Now I'm going to show further from Scripture itself--the "vessel unto honor/dishonor" is YOUR responsibility. Even still, it says "individuals"--not individual.
See 2 Tim 2:21 "If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel to honor, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared to every good work."
@droptozro no that verse is talking about being usefull in the church not about salvation you took it out of context as far as rom;9 it says individuals because there are many none elect but it is certaintly not talking about nations as in the case of genesis and even than GOD is electing 1 nation over the other you can't win
I never said 2 Tim 2:20-26 had to do with individual salvation---I said it had to do with YOUR choice as to which type of vessel you are. The point is to interpret Scripture with Scripture. You're the one claiming it has to do with individual salvation--not me, so you need to back that claim up.
I understand the issue with the Jews---the entire argument he's giving is explaining to the Jews how God predestined a lineage to bring about the Messiah.
@droptozro so why bring it up than? we are talking about election to salvation wich rom 9 is definitly talking about and that verse in rom is talking about salvation for the vessels of wrath are prepared for destruction man do you know what you are talking about?
You're the one that brought up vessels... not me, and I answered your claim to show it's your responsibility to show which type of vessel you are... I'm not sure you know what you're talking about. I'm glad you realized you were corrected on nations now, so be consistent--don't try and change it from being about nations predestined to bring about the Messiah, by God's will, through the lineage He chose from the foundation into individual salvation and you'll be fine now.
...you're the one who replied to me and couldn't back up your claim, and you tell me not to bother you?
Sorry brother...please learn context--especially when you're talking about something as important as salvation. Don't impose your beliefs on the Scriptures, interpret the Scriptures with themselves. Then, after that--take some time to read into the Early Church(first 300 years) versus the Gnostic interpretation of that chapter... see if you're on the right side. God bless
Not to mention, "hate" doesn't mean hate in the sense that you're reading it--it's comparable hatred just like Jesus said to those who wish to follow "you must hate your father, mother"--meaning it will look like I hate them because I love Jesus that much. This is the same thing...for Edom, being Esau was not given mercy and love like Jacob... read all of Malachi 1
Don't try and change the subject about nations being predestined into individual salvation... it's not there.
Actually, just read all of 2 Timothy 2:20-26---I only quoted one verse out of it. It's clear--it's YOUR job to make yourself a vessel unto honor.
I'm well aware there are other passages that talk about election/predestination---the fact that you don't seem to understand is that it's about the JEWS, the nation chosen to bring about the Messiah. It was God's choice, and no one's going to argue or change that... God chose them as a nation before the foundation of the world.
@droptozro not only that but rom;9 paul is sad cause he sees most jews as not saved questioning the promisses of GOD so he goes on to say that not every jew is a jew individuals and salvation you can't win
if god apparently has a plan for everyone then all out actions must be predetermined thus having no free will. it is impossible to have both fate and free will.
@HTwenty1 I have issue with the fact that he is teaching a whole group of people that they don't choose God. If all we can't choose God then we can't choose evil. Which would mean we aren't responsible for the sin we choose to do. And Jesus speaks many times about choosing to follow him. He is ignoring Jesus' words and taking a couple of Paul's statements out of context.
@TheCumberlands34 I see what you're saying. This is a weird area that I think John Piper touched on as well. What I think Mark is saying, is that we can't just choose God without our hearts being touched by God, which I do believe. No spiritually dead person is going to choose to live by God's words, because it doesn't make sense to them. But, God will touch their hearts and open their eyes, in which they make the decision. I THINK that's what he's saying, but I'm not sure.
@HTwenty1 I hold to that view, but i do not consider myself Calvinistic, i consider Calvinists ones who say that there is NOTHING that we can do to be saved, you say that "But, God will touch their hearts and open their eyes, in which they make the decision."(which i feel is correct) but a true calvanist would have to hold to the "I" in Tulip, which is irresistible grace, thus, at that moment there is NO decision (you cant say no if its irresistible)
@HTwenty1 no thats not how it works eph;2;10 saved by grace through faith and that not of yourselves it is a gift of GOD as GOD opens your understanding and gives you a new heart HE also gives faith than you cannot only believe but also act forwithout faith it is impossible to please GOD so without GOD give faith even if you " choose" HIM YOU ARE STILL SINING
@TheCumberlands34 NO YOU ARE taking things out of context JESUS did tell peopl to follow HIM but most people didn't exept those who HE elected do you want scripture reference? cause there is plenty examplejohn ch;17 JESUS prays only for the ones the father has give HIM not everyone as far as choosing evil you must not have a tru knowledge of the holyness of GOD because you don't understand how corrupt humans are thats pride
@ninja2 LOL great observation. Wait, did YOU create yourself DEAD IN YOUR MOTHERS womb? Or was it their god? He creates you DEAD, preprogrammed to do nothing but SIN, without the ability to even Choose to repent, then condemns you for all eternity for doing something he never gave you EVEN the OPTION of doing... until you realize that "BEFORE having done ANYTHING either good or bad Gods Purpose of ELECTION" had been accomplished "according to the good pleasure of His WILL."
I thank God everyday that he has chosen me for his own. Point blank: I would have never chosen him of my own will unless he lovingly turned my will with his Grace and Mercy. Soli deo gloria!
Free will is freedom. The freedom to live as you will. A deity that will say you have free will, yet damn you for actually using it, is no free will at all.
Driscoll just another calvinist who teaches total depravity false doctrine. God draws us by His Word, then WE as individuals have to make a choice whether to believe in Christ or not. The gospel of salvation is soo simple yet calvinists like mark make it soo difficult and confusing. calvinism is doctrines of devils.
I dont belive that salvation is anything like asking permission or not asking permission. The Lord calls salvation a gift....I can buy a gift for someone but that does not mean they will accept it. I would imagine the concept is the same for humanity. The gift is paid for and offered to us, either we accept it or reject it.
@JCMySoulsBoast Remember my brother, that Jesus was not just a Savior, but also our Redeemer. A redeemer pays a debt. That debt which is paid, cannot be required again of the one with whom the debt was originally obligated. With his redeeming blood, Jesus bought a people. The levitical law on redemption and atonement makes it clear that what is redeemed is irrevocably and uncontestedly the property of him that redeems it. the redeemed cannot negate the work of the redeemer.
@HermitintheRain Well then based on Your point, ALL of mankind is saved and there are no Elect. Jesus took on Himself the Sins of the WORLD, therefor all of mankind is redeemed regardless of Faith in His name or not.
@JCMySoulsBoast it is not my point. it is the clear teaching of the Bible that Jesus came to redeem his people. Jesus didn't die for the whole world. Jesus died for the world of his elect. Jesus redeemed! Isaiah said he would not fail to redeem his people. He hasn't your contest is no longer with me but with the clear teaching of Jesus Christ throughout the Old Testament as the Redeemer. From Job to Malachi one cannot escape this truth. Who is he saving? those he redeemed.
@JCMySoulsBoast but i am not going to argue with you on this point. it is not point you are contesting. it is the clear teaching of the Holy Spirit on the subject. your argument is with the Holy Spirit, not with me. Jesus didn't die for the whole world does not mean the entirety of it. Just as when Paul said he had preached the gospel to the entire world did it mean that he had been to the western hemisphere or australia to preach the gospel. Jesus died for his friends-his people, his bride, his
@JCMySoulsBoast even before Jesus died, he made it clear that he didn't pray for the world. he prayed only for those that the Father had given him. kind of silly for someone to not pray for those that they are about to die for, unless of course he didn't die for everyone, but only for those who he also prayed for. your issue my brother is not with me, but with the Holy Spirit, and his full counsel on everything. not just one verse, but its place with all the rest of Scripture.
@HermitintheRain If you read that prayer carefully you will know that he was at that time praying for His 12 disciples...thats why he mentions that not one was lost except one. He later goes on to pray for those who will belive in Him through their message and witness. read the Word in context, otherwise scripture becomes twisted and the Truth gets distorted.
@JCMySoulsBoast therefore i end this conversation as it in no way glorifies the Lord and pray the Lord be patient in mercy and guiding you to the clear teaching of his word.
@HermitintheRain How does standing steadfast in the truth not Glorify the Lord. I Stand against anything that contradicts what the Lord has done for humanity, thats is the true Gospel. That Jesus died for the sins of all Humanity that whosoever(whatever person : no matter who) will believe in Him will be saved John 3:16
p.s if you felt this conversation was not glorifying the Lord you should have quit 10 or so post ago.
@HermitintheRain What does this scripture have to do with election and calvinism?? All humanity was bought at a price that is why the judgement in the end will be so severe! Those who do not believe will pay as high a price as Jesus did on that cross. I know I was bought at a price and that is why I remain in Christ as he commanded.
@HermitintheRain You cannot take that away from the Lord, He died for us all. He loves all His creation. It is not His will that any should perish. Many will perish because of their unbelief and it breaks His heart, it breaks mine.
@JCMySoulsBoast i pray the Holy Spirit cause your heart to meditate on the work of Jesus Christ as the Redeemer and open your eyes to the beautiful and glorious truth found in it. shalom.
@HermitintheRain I've been praying and meditating for days, reading the scriptures, and I am more convinced in that God has given man free will, to choose their side. The revelation, the Gift is offered through the Holy Spirit but we must Believe and surrender our will to God. We were made in His image in the beginning....our flesh recognizes our Father, either we die to Sin and give our Life to Jesus or we despise His salvation and continue in rebellion. I love Jesus in truth, not by force.
@JCMySoulsBoast you are deceived my friend. unless the Lord delivers you from it then you will continue in that deception. man's flesh does indeed recognize its father-satan, the man of sin. you are apparently still trying to please God in the flesh. sadly you will run into danger on that path. if you were truthful about reading the whole counsel of God's word, you would not be saying the things you say. whatever truth is in you, it is being seriously darkened by deception. God be merciful to yo
@HermitintheRain I put of the flesh as instructed in the Word of GOd and I obey the commands of the spirit. How am I trying to please God in the flesh? The flesh is of no profit i submit my flesh under God's authority daily as instructed
HA! I am sure that what I wrote below is true...Glory to GOd and the Holy Spirit. I am sure I have known this for some time...but lately ive been examining it more closely. Forced Love is not love at all and Forced Faith is not True.
@JCMySoulsBoast which is better: God the Father who imposes his will by making a hell-deserving sinner a regenerated, blood-bought, justified and sanctified, and even glorified disciple of God. or execution of God's judgment that throws a sinner into hell-against his will? there isn't one of God's creatures, when about to go into the lake of fire that shall find any part of his choosing that eternity.
when you were born, did God ask your permission if it was alright to give you life?
@JCMySoulsBoast do you hate your life because God didn't ask you first if he could give it to you? did God ask you what color your hair would be? how tall you would be? who your parents would be? what siblings you would have? in what country you would be born? in what century you would be born? did he ask you when it would rain? did he ask you anything concerning anything he has done since the beginning of time? if not, why would he suddenly be expected to ask your permission to save you?
Heres the truth everybody- nobody can know how human choice in salvation ties in with God knowing everything- being completely sovereign. There are aspects of both which are true. It is simply beyond our understanding. Just follow Christ, place your faith in him till the end.
Disciple1818 4 days ago
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It's interesting why you don't see all the so called Arminian preachers ridicule and put down the Calvinists but you see so many self proclaimed prideful elect Calvinists slam everyone who doesn't believe their way through their interpretation of the scriptures. The world doesn't need satan distracting them, it has Christians fighting amongst each other. What an example to my non Christian loved ones that I want to see saved. Election? Paul had a choice when he was knocked of his horse anyway
Holycannolicooking 1 week ago
@patriotsfan1379 There is no logic in your view, nor scriptural basis. A person is not a murderer until they've committed murder. Likewise one is not a sinner until they've sinned. Rom 6:23 and John 8 shows you incorrect
droptozro 3 weeks ago
If I have free will, can I give it back?
SwordofManticorE 3 weeks ago
When you become a born again Christian you admit your sins. When yu become a REAL MAN, you take account for your own actions.
burquetman 3 weeks ago
This guy is a fool that doesn't want to take account for his own actions. He can play the blame the rest of his blasphemous life. Take account for your sin and choose Jesus Christ. "pepsi or coke" like he said, lucifer or Jesus it's YOUR choice.
burquetman 3 weeks ago
@Jersongs93 Yeah I see a triangle too. Look up what the pyramid stands for. It doesn't belong in Christianity.
burquetman 3 weeks ago
Arminian thinking is man musters up faith on his own(with just a little help from the Holy Spirit) and then decides to follow Jesus while he is still a lost man.Then he takes his man generated faith and trades it to God 4 salvation by saying a prayer asking Jesus into his heart,but the Bible says no one is able to believe in Jesus in a lost state.A baby can only cry once he's born,a man can only cry out to God after God makes him born again 1st,neither birth is controlled by the one being born.
CBALLEN 1 month ago
born again Christianity is given by the loving amazing grace of Jesus Christ. do you understand that what you teach is to do what thou wilt. because it's up to god to chose you? "do what thou wilt" is from Aliester Crowley of the satanic church. do you actually believe that by telling god "you made the tree of knowledge so you are to blame" will save you? this is wrong, you take a wonderful thing and corrupt it with you own Paganistic theories and ideology.
burquetman 1 month ago
why does he have a paganistic pyramid necklace? and don't even tell me it's the holy trinity.
burquetman 1 month ago
@burquetman I see a triangle...
Jersongs93 3 weeks ago
There are plenty of triangles in Christian symbolism that go way back in history. It's typically a symbol of the Trinity.
idsman75 2 weeks ago
It is true that without God we have no choice. But God has given us the ability to choose. That is why Jesus gave us the great commission and why 1 Peter 3:15 says that we must always be ready to give an account for the hope that is in us.
When Paul preached, it says in several places that he reasoned with the people. He did not simply point to a select few and say "You guys are Christians. Come with me and I'll teach you about God".
QuelDroma366 2 months ago
I guess it is human nature to make "everything" so complicated. Love GOD to the best of your ability - GOD will either accept you for who you are or he will not.
67bandit67 3 months ago 2
"Can we choose God? Dead people don't choose anything"
Wrong. In Deut.30Moses RIGHTLY explains that choosing life was "Not too difficult, NOR out of their reach". Moses RIGHTLY explains that man CAN "Choose life" or "death". Regeneration & Lazarus are a wrong dichotomy, he was ALREADY A BELIEVER, his ressurection was written as an example of Christ being The RESSURECTION, not for describing Regeneration. The PRODIGAL SON RIGHTLY defines one being DEAD & then REPENTING & returning WILLINGLY.
apollos6640 3 months ago
"Free Will comes from Erasmus"? Wrong. Free Will isn't defined as "doing WHATEVER you want" as Driscoll defines it. “ "Free Will” is a philosophical term of art for a particular sort of capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives.
Stating "DEAD PEOPLE DONT MAKE ANY DECISIONS!" Doesnt prove "Free Will" in nonexistant.
apollos6640 3 months ago
as always, this man is an IDIOT. He has no proper understanding of the nature of "will"... I'd suggest he read a bit of Crowley's "Magick in Theory and Practice."
jstebing11 3 months ago
I can't see why you need to preach the gospel if God in his sovereignty is going to choose his elect anyway? It almost seems arrogance on the Calvanist view to think that God needs you to spread the Gospel if he's already decided who's in and out. And did Adam and Eve not get to choose? and what about Satan did he not get to desire to be worshipped? Choices or free will choices????
Just Questions ;)
samwarren74 3 months ago
@samwarren74 we preach the gospel 1-because GOD ordains it to be preached[thats simple]2- GOD has decided to save men by the foolishness of preaching [faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of GOD]3- the gospel is good news to those who are being saved but it is also commdemnation to those who won't believe4- adam and eve were predestined to fall the bible says JESUS is the lamb slain before the foundation of the world[meaning there was a plan ] 5- satan is just a tool in all of this
patriotsfan1379 2 months ago
@patriotsfan1379 Thanks for your reply. So what you are saying is that everything happens according to the council of his will... therefore Satan as a "tool" isn't guilty of anything since he is only a puppet doing the will of God and therefore his predesdined end in the Lake of Fire is a bit harsh considering Gods attributes of Love kindness Goodness Justice etc. And what about Matt 26:39 Yet not as I will, but as you will..... Jesus was fully God Fully man right?
samwarren74 2 months ago
@samwarren74 I never said satan was not guilty!!the problem here I think is that you think responsability presuposes freedom but thats not so!! we, satan are responsible because GOD says we are whether you think thats fair or not is not GODS problem it is yours!!and mines also!as far as math 26; is concerned that passage alone cannot be taken in and of itself to teach freewill !!there are other places in the bible that talks about GOD putting in us the will and the desire to do HIS will
patriotsfan1379 2 months ago
@samwarren74 it would take an enormously pridefull heart to think that anyone can do the will of GOD apart fron the HOLY SPIRT and GOD given faith which compels us to act JESUS said apart from me you ""can do nothing"" !!! I wonder if you believe this tho I think not
patriotsfan1379 2 months ago
@patriotsfan1379 if your going to get personal don't bother replying. My questions are genuine. But to help me understand, you believe that everything we think and do is according to the council of his will, good and bad even our responsibility is governed by him because we have no control over any area of our actions and thoughts.
samwarren74 2 months ago
@samwarren74 no our thoughts are evil all the time but GOD only allows certain actions to take place if and when those actions are according to HIS plan, to either help us in our journey or condem us in our actions either way all creatures can only do what GOD has ordained to that will further HIS plans for our lives but also for this universe in all GOD will be gloryfied either in saving or in condeming the person we and everything is made to bring glory to GOD
patriotsfan1379 1 month ago
@samwarren74 the the bible says we are ""sinfull"" I know nobody likes to think of themselves as utterly sinfull we like to think that we can do good and that ""our actions count"" we like to take credit for everything and anything thats called pride!!
patriotsfan1379 1 month ago
@patriotsfan1379 ok I see where your coming from but does this mean you believe we have free choices rather than free will or is everything done according to the council of his will? the reason I say this is because I still fail to see how on this view guilt of sin lies with mankind especially if you want to bring in the "can't do anything without jesus" verse, I hope the question makes sense.
samwarren74 1 month ago
how do you write a second post? lol
samwarren74 1 month ago
I understand the sovereignty argument that says we don't have total free will because this is only available to God ala grudem carson sproul but this still doesn't mean we have now free choices does it? Because by implication why would God by the council of his will ordain man to sin only so he could send his son to die to redeem that which he ordained to sin in the first place and that is why I asked the Original Question 1 month ago.
samwarren74 1 month ago
@samwarren74 all of this ,this universe all the people that are living or have ever lived were made for the glory of GOD!! we are decieved when we think this was made for man !!!and in this plan GOD from eternity past is showcasing all of HIS atributes !!even the ones we don't like the ones we tend to supress like HIS justice and wrath HIS holyness !!and for this to happen HE uses people places and things!!
patriotsfan1379 1 month ago
@samwarren74 we sin because we are sinfull we are not sinfull because we sin!! and because we sin we are guilty! sin in and of itself brings guilt! adam sin and he hid from GOD why ? there is no freewill!! even GOD cannot choose against HIS nature GOD cannot sin !! we sin because that is our nature but even those choices are ruled by GOD yet it is you who commit them therefore you are guilty this GOD universe made to gloryfie HIM even when it means that GOD may send someone to hell
patriotsfan1379 1 month ago
God did not give us a predisposition to eating dirt but he did give us the ability to lust, lie, kill & steal. Why?
Celticking36 3 months ago
i like Mark, a lot. But I don't find this video good preaching of the gospel. Christ conquered death! Even dead people have the opportunity to be given life through Christ. That is the job of an evangelist, to make others know that life is with Christ and never without him. So I'm not a fan of him saying that dead people don't make choices. They are making choices - just really bad ones! To remain spiritually dead by not seeking Christ - that needs to be made clear and I think he shys away.
senaitluv 3 months ago
@senaitluv How can he shy away when the entire clip states that people cannot choose eternal life because we are eternally dead, until Jesus chooses us? That's the entire clip, and its true. Dead people do not choose anything regarding life and death. They just are. We re utterly depraved, so how can a person who has no goodness choose the supreme good? He can't. He chooses God after God calls him forth.
djking2d 3 months ago
@djking2d I feel like there are so many bad choices we make everyday and they keep us dead. Like people we hang out with. For some people the jobs they work at. You know. When you say dead people can't choose anything - he take's away our free will to choose Christ over..well, everything else. God gave us that free will - and apart of our sinful nature is thinking freedom apart from God could mean anything. Even sinners feel love and want to reconcile with God - is that Jesus choosing them?
senaitluv 3 months ago
@senaitluv Yes, it is Jesus choosing them.
See the following verses. All are taken in context:
Ephesians 2:1,4-8,10; Colossians 2:13-14; Romans 5:6-10, and John 6:44
Any translation of the Bible will suffice, although I recommend NIV (1984), ESV, NKJV or NASB. The NLT is helpful for the spirit of the message in common language, though. I suggest Biblegateway's website. It allows one to compare multiple translations side-by-side.
Pastor Mark addressed the choices we make in the sermon clip.
djking2d 3 months ago
@senaitluv By sinners, do you mean nonchristians? I assume that is what you mean. Everyone feels love, and wants intimacy. Not everyone wants reconciliation with God, or even accepts that God exists, as the Bible states. or at all. So, I don't know what you were trying to say. Could you clarify?
djking2d 3 months ago
Comment removed
senaitluv 3 months ago
@wpcooper1978 romans 1 talks about how God revealed himself to people through natural things like the moon,stars,etc. man knows there is something greater than man. Its in everyone. But being born in our sinfulness we dont acknowledge God and run into all kinds of evil and God lets us. But he shows mercy on whom ever he wants like romans 9 would say and act 2:21 is scriptural if u know the context. Them guys were being killed and tortured for what they believe. pretty big statement
dymez100 3 months ago
@dymez100 Firstly, the Acts verse, how can this be taken out of context? It is a sermon delivered by Peter, and a quotation from the prophet Joel. Isn't this a pretty clear statement? Romans 1:18-28 in summary says God made himself known to humankind through creation and humankind chose not acknowledge God or worship him or glorify him, so God handed them over to their sinful desires.
wpcooper1978 3 months ago
My view is if human beings do not have free will then humankind has every right to blame God for everything wrong on the earth, war, famine, poverty ... if God can impose his will on to humankind, then why doesn't he impose his will on our governments, nations, and communities? If we don't have free will, then we would have to assume temptation does not exist, and that two lines from the Lord's Prayer have to be removed.
wpcooper1978 3 months ago
Why do most Christians want to so desperately impart free-will to man when it's clearly not Biblical? The Bible repeatedly states over and over that God chose us from "before the foundations of the earth," that he "predestined us according to the purpose of his will," and that "he upholds all things by the word of his power." Paul says "It is God who is at work in you," and that he "predestined every good work." Jesus says "No one can come to me unless the it is granted to him by the Father."
budmanguy 4 months ago
@budmanguy Because they're false Christians. What did Christ say about these imposters? "For many will come to me saying, did I not prophesy in your name? and create miracles? And I will say to them, I never knew you."
al2phat 4 months ago
@budmanguy Because if we have free will, then homosexuals, since they "chose" to be that way, won't fall under constitutional protection, because we can simply "choose to be normal." The obvious problems with this are 1) we don't actually have full free will, 2) homosexuality isn't a choice, 3) even IF the first two were true, homosexuals still should enjoy the full rights and privileges of everyone else. Everyone is to be treated equally under the law, even if we choose to be different.
graey42 4 months ago
@graey42 Well said. This very point exposes the holes in the Calvinism position.
wpcooper1978 3 months ago
@budmanguy This is complete nonsense. This makes a complete farce out of what Paul wrote in Romans 1:18 - 28. In which he states people knew of God but chose not acknowledge him as God, and he therefore handed them over to their desires. You're implying that Jesus is unapproachable. And you're also implying, "That anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved," Acts 2:21 is not valid scriptural teaching.
wpcooper1978 3 months ago
Dead people don't sin either
JoaquinJB 4 months ago
Marky Mark....you're a tad confused....also I love you quote the "great" Luther...same guy who followed the gospel message of grace? According to Mark Driscoll...Luther was 'chosen' and doesn't make many decisions...question is did Luther choose to make these comments below?
"We ought to take revenge on the Jews and kill them."
"Now just behold these miserable, blind, and senseless people."
"eject them forever from this country"
crustomatic16 5 months ago
@crustomatic16 and why do you not take the trunk out of your eye first ""maybe than you can help your brother with his splinter!!! he who is without sin let him cast the first stone!! I guess you think you are better than luther 1 of the greatest theological minds of all times huh?
patriotsfan1379 2 months ago
@patriotsfan1379
Tom Brady is the man as are you! You are such the theologian. You burnt me! Rise your right hand...now pat yourself on the back as you have done a great job. Luther had more the one trunks, planks, specs, dots...as do I...if I make comments like Luther did...please do not follow me as I try following Christ.
crustomatic16 2 months ago
The only reason Driscoll is SO ADAMANT on preaching that "Free Will" is non-existant is because he "loves the doctrine of Election" & John Calvin. & The "5-Points" of calvinism CANNOT allow Man to be able to repent after being convicted by the Holy Spirit using his "Free Will" otherwise their doctrine of Total Depravity & ELECTION are out the window. If they're out the window, so is their "Free Ride" onto Salvation
apollos6640 5 months ago
"Can we choose God? Dead people don't choose anything" -Driscoll
Wrong. In Deut.30:1-20 Moses RIGHTLY explains that choosing life was "Not too difficult, NOR out of [their] reach". Moses writes man CAN "Choose life" or "death". Regeneration & Lazarus are a wrong dichotomy, he was ALREADY A BELIEVER,,, his ressurection was written as an example of Christ being The Ressurection, not for describing Regeneration. The PRODIGAL SON RIGHTLY defines one being DEAD & then REPENTING & returning WILLINGLY.
apollos6640 5 months ago
"Free Will comes from Erasmus"? Wrong. Free Will isn't defined as "doing WHATEVER you want" as Driscoll defines it. “
"Free Will” is a philosophical term of art for a particular sort of capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives.
apollos6640 5 months ago
We argue about Scripture instead of living out the Scripture. Our mission is to go and preach the gospel to the ends of the earth, not to go on youtube and argue about doctrine. God looks on us, sees our pathetic bickering in the body and dismisses us as immature babies crapping our spiritual diapers. Stop arguing and go lead souls to Him.
pcruze81 5 months ago
@pcruze81 Can you lead souls to Him without right doctrine? "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed that form of doctrine which was delivered you." Romans 6:17
patrckhh20 5 months ago
If there is no free will, what is it to "quench the spirit"? Why warn us against it if there is not free will to resist?
nicodemous52 6 months ago
Lazarus being dead is not a correlation to us being dead in sin either. Spiritual death =/= physical death--this is a bad philosophical argument, much like Colossians 2:8 warns about--based on traditions of men and the elementary principles of this world.
Don't be fooled, in Mark's consistent view---god predestined the fall, predestined you to be born a sinner, and predestined to send most of humanity to hell because of this... wicked, I feel bad for satan in Calvinism.
droptozro 6 months ago
0:00-0:35 seconds might be true---but it's only a half-truth, Luther liked a lot of Augustine's doctrines, Augustine was a former Manichaean Gnostic for 9 years(and he also introduced infant baptism, worship of Mary, and many other Catholic doctrines never taught before).
Try reading the Ante-Nicene church, this debate started well before Luther... and the Gnostics taught fatalism, and the church taught free will--not like Mark is defining it though, he's mis-representing it.
droptozro 6 months ago
I don't trust anyone who wears a triangle around their neck:
'ordo ab chao'.
archivesDave 6 months ago
LOL CALVINISM.
Worst. Theology. Ever.
TheVampireLucinda 7 months ago
Excellent.
merryredollie 7 months ago
Dead people don't make any decisions! This ones used a lot. Dead people can not do BAD things either so it's clear that there's some limitations to this analogy. MD is a good communicator but he's just so wrong here. Notice how much he calls on Luther and Augustine. He has to cuz that's the only place he'll find support for his position.
faithandpractice 7 months ago
@faithandpractice did you even watch this video? Because Mark quite clearly describes what he means by dead. Spiritually dead and physically dead are both very different things my friend.
ODM108 7 months ago
@ODM108 All the same, he is pressing the analogy into a service for which it was not intended. To say that mans state of spiritual death makes it impossible for one to respond to God without first being made regenerate is simply taking that to a place that the Bible does not.
faithandpractice 7 months ago
@faithandpractice No he's not. Mark's view is backed up by scripture.
ODM108 7 months ago
@ODM108 Well it's easy to say that but the reality of the matter is that the Bible only "backs it up" when it's twisted to support the position. One thing is without debate. The entire history of the church disagreed with Marks position until the 4th. century. It's sad really. Mark is such a good communicator and he's simply wrong on this point.
faithandpractice 7 months ago
@ODM108 Read the Ephesians quote on this, it's goes along something like "It is not by the will of man that they come to God, but by the will of God". How can someone search for something that In this world Is invisible to the dead eye. I think the analogy of being dead is perfect for someone who is without Christ. Christ Is what makes you alive brother!
ODM108 6 months ago
its all bullshit
BelieveInDuncan 7 months ago
@BelieveInDuncan what is?
benhoward1 7 months ago
Yeah, God created the majority of mankind to fry forever in Hell. Only the "elect" get to escape that happily in heavem. If thats true, Christ is a big failure and God is not loving.
westernlions 7 months ago
@westernlions Chris is only a failure if He tries to save someone but cant becauese they wont let Him. nope. my God actually saves His elect. Jesus actualy paid in full the sins of His people and saves them. not just leaves it up the the sinner to 'choose'. so Jesus only fails if He tries to save someone but cant. prais the Lord that isnt the case.
peterlabrie1 7 months ago
@peterlabrie1
Saves your "elect" and abandons the world. Calvinism is a very heartless theology.
westernlions 7 months ago
@westernlions God has choosen to save a countless amount of people by dying for them and actually saveing them. God is not obligated to save every single human bieng on the entire planet. only sinners will be in hell for breaking Gods law paying for there sins. we are not innocent people. put your faith in Christ and He will show you His amazing love and grant you eternal life.
peterlabrie1 7 months ago
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westernlions 7 months ago
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westernlions 7 months ago
@peterlabrie1
There's nothing a person can possibly do to merit being eternally barbequed. You people turn God into an eternal Hitler and try to desperately defend his good character. And no burning people forever is NOT a "just" thing to do, it is barberic.
Amusingly, hell is not even a biblical teaching. It just a christian doctrine made up in the 5th century and then perpetuated in the dark ages like crazy. The words translated hell in popular bible versions do not mean hell at all.
westernlions 7 months ago
@peterlabrie1 Christ says in Matthew 20:16, "So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen."
al2phat 4 months ago
@westernlions The fact that God would let anyone in heaven is loving. Everyone deserves hell.
ngstevenm 7 months ago
@ngstevenm
There's nothing a person can possibly do to merit being eternally barbequed. Infinite punishment for a finite life of sins and mistakes is illogical and unblblical. Even Gods people, the Hebrews, do not believe in it. Judism has no concept of hell. Come on, use your critical thinking and common sense. Stop blindly believing whatever your pastors say.
westernlions 7 months ago
1:11 what is the heart? that means nothing. The nature within us? what nature? our biological and environmental predispositions?
LIGHTRONIX 7 months ago
Free Will has nothing to do with Unlimited Choice... Not even God has that ability, God cannot Choose to Lie, but that in no way limits His Free Will. Free Will deals with the ability to Freely Choose between all possible actions.
humans do not HAVE to sin, therefore, choosing to sin, is a Free Will decision.
ChristusVlCTOR 7 months ago
Maybe Driscoll should further examine church history. Free will did not start with Erasmus. It has been taught by the Eastern Orthodox church from apostolic times right through to today. many evangelicals, especially in the US are ignorant of the EOC. I have only just begun to learn about the EOC and their doctrines. They reject eternal hell fire, election and other Western doctrines that were formed long after apostolic times.
brendos444 7 months ago
@brendos444 Amen! (on Free Will existing before Erasmus) The sad thing is, Driscoll knows what he just said was a lie, and he didn't even blink. A simple google search, on the early church and free will, results in numerous early Church fathers who believed in Free Will (infact I know of none that reject it). Also, Mark, if dead people don't choose anything, then they don't choose to sin either, therefore they are not accountable, and your god is not my God.
ChristusVlCTOR 7 months ago
American evangelicalism is a very strange thing. Most think that Catholicism and Protestantism are the only forms of Christianity and are simply ignorant of Othodoxy - a much older tradition than both and certainly much older than the reformation. Many don't know about how the Bible came to be. Some speak of the bible as if it fell like manna from heaven. I've found it so liberating researching about orthodoxy. now knowing that an ancient tradition rejects hell fire and substitutionary atonement
brendos444 7 months ago
@brendos444 Orthodoxy does not reject Substituionary Atonement, it rejects Penal Substitutionary Atonement, it holds to (AFAIK) Ransom Theory Substitutionary Atonement.
Also not sure where you get that it rejects Hell from, I will have to look into that. I also spent many months looking into EO, but rejected it on the grounds of Idolatry (Icons), and the worship of Angels (Praying to Saints, and Angels).
I also have Coptic TV and they are SOO Pharsaical.
ChristusVlCTOR 7 months ago
@ChristusVlCTOR Agreed on penal sub atonement. Read up on hell. They do not reject hell per se. They reject the Western version of hell which is literal fire pit where people get tortured forever. EO believe that hell is a reality one creates for themselves when they reject God's love and grace. Hate burns inside of them. The things Jesus says about hell are merely metaphors not concrete realities. RE the Coptics: there will be self-righteous ppl in every church and denomination.
brendos444 7 months ago
@brendos444 btw, yes I think the prayer to other beings like angels probably crept into the church over the years. This would not have been something that the early Jewish Christians (that is the Apostles) would have been comfortable with. but i don't think there is worship of icons. This is a misunderstanding i think. I'll have to read more about it.
brendos444 7 months ago
How do we choose hell, sin, etc., if we are unable to do otherwise. Not much of a choice is it?
No clear thinking person can believe this stuff. It's contradiction upon contradiction.
brajamtho757 8 months ago
If it is up to God then, why doesn't he regenerate everyone's heart?
alexthered62 8 months ago
@alexthered62
Because he is a piece of shit who enjoys torturing people for the horrible sin of being born.
brajamtho757 8 months ago
@brajamtho757 Wrong, clearly it must be up to us to make a decision about whether we want to sin or not.
alexthered62 8 months ago
"dead people dont make any decision"
but when it comes to sin its all our fault
niinja2 8 months ago
If I thought some men were created for hell I could no longer follow. The thought that some are created for hell is Evil and G-d is not evil. Elect-predestination is only taught by Sons of perdition
thatsleepguy 8 months ago
There is a difference from physically dead and spiritually dead.Using Lazarus is not staying within the context of being spiritually dead.BTW,It was the command that brought Lazarus back to life.He wasn't made alive first and then heard the command.The command made him alive.Also,just because two people wrote a book on freewill doesn't settle the issue.The Bible does and is clear that God gives man as well as angels freewill.I challenge Mark or Larry Wessels on this issue.
bluetew37 8 months ago in playlist Biblical Teaching
@bluetew37
i agree with the exegesis of lazerous,although it is possible it has more than one meaning, though that is not clear. what is clear, is that God must do something before we are able to come to him. he has to open our eyes. if it is up to us and our free will then grace isnt grace. its no longer based not on merit, so no man can boast, its no longer a gift that is given without any thought about what people have done. it becomes something we earn through mustering ourselves up,
gdoggydog05 8 months ago
@bluetew37
through mustering up to a climatic "free will decision on our own" where as God then comes into the picture later, entering us, after we choose him. that is works salvation. that we muster ourselves to that point through studying various things, pondering our life, working ourselves up into a sincere brokeness over our sin that doesnt seem to be possible according to the bible, and finally, choosing God. on our own. that is preposterous. show me one verse on free will
gdoggydog05 8 months ago
@bluetew37
one verse, in context. a proof text please. and if we have free will, then naturally we can lose our salvation, you must believe. because God cant "keep" us, and only those who endure to the end will be saved and like 9 other verses that say the same thing, and if God cant keep us even though john 6: 36 says that he wont lose one he came to save, which would be a violation of free will, "HE WONT lose us" not "WE WONT" lose ourselves. it is a violation of free will.
gdoggydog05 8 months ago
@bluetew37
our being given a new heart with new desires. also a violation of free will. though it is clear in scriptures. these old desires we had were in fact, sinful, but our desires none the less. when we become christian, those our over-ridden, and our new heart produces new desires. if we have free will in heaven, we can fall like the angels, although God says we wont. You cant fly can you? That would be because God placed scientific limitations on your will. gravity. no matter how bad u
gdoggydog05 8 months ago
@bluetew37
you will to fly, you cannot. and that is not an off-topic example. it is one of many examples of how /God has restricted your will. you do have free will. but it is limited. it has restrictions. one of those restrictions is that you are bound to choose only sin. in Christ, and Christ only, do we become free to make God glorifying decisions other than sin. only God or man can have free will not both. God ordains Christians for specific work such as evangelism...
gdoggydog05 8 months ago
@bluetew37
such as preaching the gospel, and oither things only ordained for christians. even if God can foresee, he is now limited, based on our decisions. Well who do I want to write the scriptures? Ok, well I cannot use johnny rockets, because i can see ahead of time that he is not going to choose me, so my will is now limited in the fact that their our some people i can choose, like paul, to write the bible, but others i cannot use, because i see ahead of time they dont choose me.
gdoggydog05 8 months ago
@bluetew37
gods entire will would be limited, based upon seeing ahead of time which people would and wouldnt accept him. and he would be limited to only using certain people, the ones who accept him, to accomplish his redemptive plan. you have just role reversed God being free to man being free. it cannot be both. and inherited sin, is also a violation of free will. im sorry but your choices may seem genuine, however there is much going on behind the scenes that u dont realize.
gdoggydog05 8 months ago
AMEN!
talisa12390 8 months ago
Amen.
chefbakercook 8 months ago in playlist Biblical Teaching
What about Similes? I am quite sure there is a host of literary devices recognized by teachers-just have a hard time speaking of someone dead whom is alive. Did Jesus walk around trying to eat some grass or whatever lambs eat? He was the lamb of God, right? Well, I am confused now. I remember learning he was not just the lamb of God sacrificed but also the scapegoat left unprotected to wander until devoured by wolves? How can he be both? I am a Calvinist and we need to be thoroughly biblical!
daveme7 9 months ago
the will does not make choices it is the mind that makes the choice than the will acts so if the carnal mind cannot submit itself to GOD and it is at enmity with GOD because it is a slave to sin if the mind its fallen than the will must necessarily be also fallen therefore not free
patriotsfan1379 9 months ago
You missed it right from the beginning, Only god has free will, because ONLY God can DO whatever he wants. Then you say that we have choices, but If I want to be 9 ft tall, I cannot. You mix things under one's control and one not under one's control and base th argument on that. this speaks of power and scope, not ability to function within one's power and scopeA change of skin color or height is NOT a doing and therefore not involved in will
buzzbbird 9 months ago
Some of you people that refuse to take scripture at it's face value, because it doesn't make sense to you, or you simply don't like it, or that's not what you think God should do, you people are useless asses! You need to repent of relying so heavily on the wretched whore that is reason and put some faith in the Word. Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?
tmaanthony12 9 months ago
@tmaanthony12
You're right, take it at face value.. look up what Romans 9 is in context to, the audience, and the Scriptures that Paul quotes. It's not to "rely on reason"--its to understand the truth, and the truth is-Calvinists interpret Romans 9 just like the fatalistic Gnostics of Paul's time, and the true Ante-Nicene church interpreted it completely different. I understand your issue with taking things literally, but make sure you're interpreting Scripture with itself.
droptozro 9 months ago
EVERYONE READ ROMANS!!! Especially read Romans 9. Doesn't get any simpler than that.
jet375 9 months ago
@jet375
EVERYONE! Read the things Paul quotes in the OT---because guess what! Romans 9 is about nations, not individuals being predestined to heaven or hell. Again, LOOK up the FULL quotes of what Paul is quoting from the OT in context---it couldn't get any simpler than that.
droptozro 9 months ago
@droptozro "For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel..."
As indeed he says in Hosea,
“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
Hmmmmmmmm.........weird.
jet375 9 months ago
Comment removed
droptozro 9 months ago
@jet375
"my people"--isn't individuals predetermined to heaven/hell, and it doesn't say anything about salvation.
Did you look up Paul's references? The entire passage.. go look it up.
Look up Jacob/Esau-they are nations. This entire passage is laying out how God predestined Israel, and the lineage HE chose before time, and chose to give more mercy to over another---to allow His Messiah to come about. (My brethren of the flesh)-Jews, Paul is explaining the prophecies to Jewish Christians
droptozro 9 months ago
@droptozro no rom ;9 is not talking about nations but individuals before they had done anything good or bad so that GODS purpose in ELECTION STAND
patriotsfan1379 9 months ago
@patriotsfan1379
Wrong. Did you actually do what I asked in the comment? Or just come to give the same cry that all Calvinists do...
Jacob and Esau represent nations--go look up the original text Paul used from the OT. Esau never literally served Jacob either.
Genesis 25:23 "And the LORD said to her, Two nations are in your womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from your bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger."
droptozro 9 months ago
@droptozro even though he was talking about two nations than he is not talking about 2 nations in rom 9 even if he was but he isn't there are entire passages that talk about election while you can only come up with single verses taken out \of context been throgh all of thi before heard all the arguments
patriotsfan1379 9 months ago
@patriotsfan1379
Yes it can be won.. you haven't heard all the arguments because you just obviously got shown that verse had nothing to do with individual salvation.
Now I'm going to show further from Scripture itself--the "vessel unto honor/dishonor" is YOUR responsibility. Even still, it says "individuals"--not individual.
See 2 Tim 2:21 "If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel to honor, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared to every good work."
droptozro 9 months ago
@droptozro no that verse is talking about being usefull in the church not about salvation you took it out of context as far as rom;9 it says individuals because there are many none elect but it is certaintly not talking about nations as in the case of genesis and even than GOD is electing 1 nation over the other you can't win
patriotsfan1379 9 months ago
@patriotsfan1379
I never said 2 Tim 2:20-26 had to do with individual salvation---I said it had to do with YOUR choice as to which type of vessel you are. The point is to interpret Scripture with Scripture. You're the one claiming it has to do with individual salvation--not me, so you need to back that claim up.
I understand the issue with the Jews---the entire argument he's giving is explaining to the Jews how God predestined a lineage to bring about the Messiah.
droptozro 9 months ago
@droptozro so why bring it up than? we are talking about election to salvation wich rom 9 is definitly talking about and that verse in rom is talking about salvation for the vessels of wrath are prepared for destruction man do you know what you are talking about?
patriotsfan1379 9 months ago
@patriotsfan1379
You're the one that brought up vessels... not me, and I answered your claim to show it's your responsibility to show which type of vessel you are... I'm not sure you know what you're talking about. I'm glad you realized you were corrected on nations now, so be consistent--don't try and change it from being about nations predestined to bring about the Messiah, by God's will, through the lineage He chose from the foundation into individual salvation and you'll be fine now.
droptozro 9 months ago
@droptozro we talking about ch 9 it's there in the context of salvation but you know what your crazy don't bother me no more
patriotsfan1379 9 months ago
@patriotsfan1379
...you're the one who replied to me and couldn't back up your claim, and you tell me not to bother you?
Sorry brother...please learn context--especially when you're talking about something as important as salvation. Don't impose your beliefs on the Scriptures, interpret the Scriptures with themselves. Then, after that--take some time to read into the Early Church(first 300 years) versus the Gnostic interpretation of that chapter... see if you're on the right side. God bless
droptozro 9 months ago
@patriotsfan1379
Not to mention, "hate" doesn't mean hate in the sense that you're reading it--it's comparable hatred just like Jesus said to those who wish to follow "you must hate your father, mother"--meaning it will look like I hate them because I love Jesus that much. This is the same thing...for Edom, being Esau was not given mercy and love like Jacob... read all of Malachi 1
Don't try and change the subject about nations being predestined into individual salvation... it's not there.
droptozro 9 months ago
@patriotsfan1379
Actually, just read all of 2 Timothy 2:20-26---I only quoted one verse out of it. It's clear--it's YOUR job to make yourself a vessel unto honor.
I'm well aware there are other passages that talk about election/predestination---the fact that you don't seem to understand is that it's about the JEWS, the nation chosen to bring about the Messiah. It was God's choice, and no one's going to argue or change that... God chose them as a nation before the foundation of the world.
droptozro 9 months ago
@droptozro not only that but rom;9 paul is sad cause he sees most jews as not saved questioning the promisses of GOD so he goes on to say that not every jew is a jew individuals and salvation you can't win
patriotsfan1379 9 months ago
@droptozro plus later on he talks about some vessel for honor n some for dishonor not nations you can't win this one
patriotsfan1379 9 months ago
if god apparently has a plan for everyone then all out actions must be predetermined thus having no free will. it is impossible to have both fate and free will.
Bayzz2 9 months ago
Wow. Are people really believing this guys twisted theology?
TheCumberlands34 10 months ago
@TheCumberlands34 What are you having an issue with?
HTwenty1 9 months ago
@HTwenty1 I have issue with the fact that he is teaching a whole group of people that they don't choose God. If all we can't choose God then we can't choose evil. Which would mean we aren't responsible for the sin we choose to do. And Jesus speaks many times about choosing to follow him. He is ignoring Jesus' words and taking a couple of Paul's statements out of context.
TheCumberlands34 9 months ago
@TheCumberlands34 I see what you're saying. This is a weird area that I think John Piper touched on as well. What I think Mark is saying, is that we can't just choose God without our hearts being touched by God, which I do believe. No spiritually dead person is going to choose to live by God's words, because it doesn't make sense to them. But, God will touch their hearts and open their eyes, in which they make the decision. I THINK that's what he's saying, but I'm not sure.
HTwenty1 9 months ago
@HTwenty1 I hold to that view, but i do not consider myself Calvinistic, i consider Calvinists ones who say that there is NOTHING that we can do to be saved, you say that "But, God will touch their hearts and open their eyes, in which they make the decision."(which i feel is correct) but a true calvanist would have to hold to the "I" in Tulip, which is irresistible grace, thus, at that moment there is NO decision (you cant say no if its irresistible)
Featherylock 9 months ago
@HTwenty1 no thats not how it works eph;2;10 saved by grace through faith and that not of yourselves it is a gift of GOD as GOD opens your understanding and gives you a new heart HE also gives faith than you cannot only believe but also act forwithout faith it is impossible to please GOD so without GOD give faith even if you " choose" HIM YOU ARE STILL SINING
patriotsfan1379 9 months ago
@TheCumberlands34 NO YOU ARE taking things out of context JESUS did tell peopl to follow HIM but most people didn't exept those who HE elected do you want scripture reference? cause there is plenty examplejohn ch;17 JESUS prays only for the ones the father has give HIM not everyone as far as choosing evil you must not have a tru knowledge of the holyness of GOD because you don't understand how corrupt humans are thats pride
patriotsfan1379 9 months ago
@ninja2 LOL great observation. Wait, did YOU create yourself DEAD IN YOUR MOTHERS womb? Or was it their god? He creates you DEAD, preprogrammed to do nothing but SIN, without the ability to even Choose to repent, then condemns you for all eternity for doing something he never gave you EVEN the OPTION of doing... until you realize that "BEFORE having done ANYTHING either good or bad Gods Purpose of ELECTION" had been accomplished "according to the good pleasure of His WILL."
apollos6640 10 months ago
I thank God everyday that he has chosen me for his own. Point blank: I would have never chosen him of my own will unless he lovingly turned my will with his Grace and Mercy. Soli deo gloria!
prettylola1 10 months ago
dead people dont make any decision
why are we then guilty for everything
niinja2 10 months ago 2
its true! anytime i try to encourage myself to chose Christ my human ways drag me to sin, but does not mean I cant fight back.
teta809 10 months ago
Free will is freedom. The freedom to live as you will. A deity that will say you have free will, yet damn you for actually using it, is no free will at all.
FollowerOfTheGods 11 months ago
@FollowerOfTheGods God never says we have free will, he predestines everything we do.
Dadutta 11 months ago
@FollowerOfTheGods except free-will does not mean go and sin!
teta809 10 months ago
Driscoll just another calvinist who teaches total depravity false doctrine. God draws us by His Word, then WE as individuals have to make a choice whether to believe in Christ or not. The gospel of salvation is soo simple yet calvinists like mark make it soo difficult and confusing. calvinism is doctrines of devils.
TheKJVberean 11 months ago
@TheKJVberean
kindly read what you've typed here again.
gainguide 11 months ago
@TheKJVberean you don't know the bible or God... he's not just someone you can chose or deny.. you don't have that kind of power..
bebopblues 11 months ago
L.Ray teaches a false theology, based on emotions and false understandings of koine greek.
LogosTheos 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I suggest for everyone to read L. Ray Smiths articles from Bible-Truths dot-com. Actually type the website. Message me with questions.
JAKEHARRIS281 1 year ago
I dont belive that salvation is anything like asking permission or not asking permission. The Lord calls salvation a gift....I can buy a gift for someone but that does not mean they will accept it. I would imagine the concept is the same for humanity. The gift is paid for and offered to us, either we accept it or reject it.
JCMySoulsBoast 1 year ago
@JCMySoulsBoast Remember my brother, that Jesus was not just a Savior, but also our Redeemer. A redeemer pays a debt. That debt which is paid, cannot be required again of the one with whom the debt was originally obligated. With his redeeming blood, Jesus bought a people. The levitical law on redemption and atonement makes it clear that what is redeemed is irrevocably and uncontestedly the property of him that redeems it. the redeemed cannot negate the work of the redeemer.
HermitintheRain 1 year ago
@HermitintheRain Well then based on Your point, ALL of mankind is saved and there are no Elect. Jesus took on Himself the Sins of the WORLD, therefor all of mankind is redeemed regardless of Faith in His name or not.
JCMySoulsBoast 1 year ago
@JCMySoulsBoast it is not my point. it is the clear teaching of the Bible that Jesus came to redeem his people. Jesus didn't die for the whole world. Jesus died for the world of his elect. Jesus redeemed! Isaiah said he would not fail to redeem his people. He hasn't your contest is no longer with me but with the clear teaching of Jesus Christ throughout the Old Testament as the Redeemer. From Job to Malachi one cannot escape this truth. Who is he saving? those he redeemed.
HermitintheRain 1 year ago
@JCMySoulsBoast but i am not going to argue with you on this point. it is not point you are contesting. it is the clear teaching of the Holy Spirit on the subject. your argument is with the Holy Spirit, not with me. Jesus didn't die for the whole world does not mean the entirety of it. Just as when Paul said he had preached the gospel to the entire world did it mean that he had been to the western hemisphere or australia to preach the gospel. Jesus died for his friends-his people, his bride, his
HermitintheRain 1 year ago
@HermitintheRain And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 j0hn 2:2
The Apostle John must have been lied to and misled by the Spirit, or maybe he got confused and didnt mean the WHOLE WORLD
JCMySoulsBoast 1 year ago
@JCMySoulsBoast even before Jesus died, he made it clear that he didn't pray for the world. he prayed only for those that the Father had given him. kind of silly for someone to not pray for those that they are about to die for, unless of course he didn't die for everyone, but only for those who he also prayed for. your issue my brother is not with me, but with the Holy Spirit, and his full counsel on everything. not just one verse, but its place with all the rest of Scripture.
HermitintheRain 1 year ago
@HermitintheRain If you read that prayer carefully you will know that he was at that time praying for His 12 disciples...thats why he mentions that not one was lost except one. He later goes on to pray for those who will belive in Him through their message and witness. read the Word in context, otherwise scripture becomes twisted and the Truth gets distorted.
JCMySoulsBoast 1 year ago
@JCMySoulsBoast therefore i end this conversation as it in no way glorifies the Lord and pray the Lord be patient in mercy and guiding you to the clear teaching of his word.
HermitintheRain 1 year ago
@HermitintheRain How does standing steadfast in the truth not Glorify the Lord. I Stand against anything that contradicts what the Lord has done for humanity, thats is the true Gospel. That Jesus died for the sins of all Humanity that whosoever(whatever person : no matter who) will believe in Him will be saved John 3:16
p.s if you felt this conversation was not glorifying the Lord you should have quit 10 or so post ago.
JCMySoulsBoast 1 year ago
@HermitintheRain Jesus did not buy A people....He died for all humanity.
JCMySoulsBoast 1 year ago
@JCMySoulsBoast 1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
You need to read your Bible brother.
HermitintheRain 1 year ago
@HermitintheRain What does this scripture have to do with election and calvinism?? All humanity was bought at a price that is why the judgement in the end will be so severe! Those who do not believe will pay as high a price as Jesus did on that cross. I know I was bought at a price and that is why I remain in Christ as he commanded.
JCMySoulsBoast 1 year ago
@HermitintheRain You cannot take that away from the Lord, He died for us all. He loves all His creation. It is not His will that any should perish. Many will perish because of their unbelief and it breaks His heart, it breaks mine.
JCMySoulsBoast 1 year ago
@JCMySoulsBoast i pray the Holy Spirit cause your heart to meditate on the work of Jesus Christ as the Redeemer and open your eyes to the beautiful and glorious truth found in it. shalom.
HermitintheRain 1 year ago
@HermitintheRain I've been praying and meditating for days, reading the scriptures, and I am more convinced in that God has given man free will, to choose their side. The revelation, the Gift is offered through the Holy Spirit but we must Believe and surrender our will to God. We were made in His image in the beginning....our flesh recognizes our Father, either we die to Sin and give our Life to Jesus or we despise His salvation and continue in rebellion. I love Jesus in truth, not by force.
JCMySoulsBoast 1 year ago
@JCMySoulsBoast you are deceived my friend. unless the Lord delivers you from it then you will continue in that deception. man's flesh does indeed recognize its father-satan, the man of sin. you are apparently still trying to please God in the flesh. sadly you will run into danger on that path. if you were truthful about reading the whole counsel of God's word, you would not be saying the things you say. whatever truth is in you, it is being seriously darkened by deception. God be merciful to yo
HermitintheRain 1 year ago
@HermitintheRain WOW.....a few post ago i was of the elect now im deceived by satan.
JCMySoulsBoast 1 year ago
@HermitintheRain I put of the flesh as instructed in the Word of GOd and I obey the commands of the spirit. How am I trying to please God in the flesh? The flesh is of no profit i submit my flesh under God's authority daily as instructed
JCMySoulsBoast 1 year ago
HA! I am sure that what I wrote below is true...Glory to GOd and the Holy Spirit. I am sure I have known this for some time...but lately ive been examining it more closely. Forced Love is not love at all and Forced Faith is not True.
JCMySoulsBoast 1 year ago
@JCMySoulsBoast which is better: God the Father who imposes his will by making a hell-deserving sinner a regenerated, blood-bought, justified and sanctified, and even glorified disciple of God. or execution of God's judgment that throws a sinner into hell-against his will? there isn't one of God's creatures, when about to go into the lake of fire that shall find any part of his choosing that eternity.
when you were born, did God ask your permission if it was alright to give you life?
HermitintheRain 1 year ago
@JCMySoulsBoast do you hate your life because God didn't ask you first if he could give it to you? did God ask you what color your hair would be? how tall you would be? who your parents would be? what siblings you would have? in what country you would be born? in what century you would be born? did he ask you when it would rain? did he ask you anything concerning anything he has done since the beginning of time? if not, why would he suddenly be expected to ask your permission to save you?
HermitintheRain 1 year ago