Ron Paul - family values

[sweet161402]

You can pray to youself to God.

[EqualAndFree]

For most of history "marriage" meant a man buying one or more teenage girls from their fathers for the price of a camel, using them as cheap domestic labor, beating them and letting your brother inherit them when you die. Abraham's "Family Values" included having two wives, sleeping with his second wife's slave and being willing to ritually sacrifice his son. Those aren't the Family Values I believe in. Values evolve and marriage equality and childrens' rights are all part of that process.

[alexross8]

@EqualAndFree

Actually, Abraham had only one wife "Sarai", which later became "Sarah". They wanted to have a baby together, but Sarah couldn't give birth. They both agreed that he should sleep with her slave to have a baby. It was consensual, and Abraham didn't have any actual feelings for Hagar. God wanted to make an example of Abraham's faith by telling him to sacrifice his son. He was able to sacrifice his son, but God prevented him from doing it, and instead gave him a lamb to sacrifice.

[EqualAndFree]

@alexross8 So was Abraham married to Hagar or was it an extra-marital relationship with a sex slave? And would you agree to sacrifice YOUR child? The issue is not whether God wanted Isaac to be sacrificed but whether Abraham was prepared to do so - and it appears that he was. Clearly sex slaves and ritual child sacrifice were both accepted traditions prior to that time, but not afterwards - indicating clear evolution in human values. Women and children are today given far more rights than then.

[alexross8]

@EqualAndFree

Hagar wasn't a sex slave; she was a slave from Egypt, but she was given to Sarai to be more of a maid-type person. Abraham and Sarah both wanted a child, so Sarah consented him to have sex with Hagar to get a child through her. Sarah was envious of Hagar, because she was treated as a queen, because she were to be the mother of a Prince. If anything, that just shows us the treatment of slaves in Hebrew society. Technically, Hagar was Sarah's slave, and Abraham had to respect that.

[EqualAndFree]

@alexross8 You can play around with words if you wish - but if your neighbors did it you'd not approve. Nor would you approve if your neighbor got ready to sacrifice their child because he felt that's what God wanted. You can't get out of this just by saying "society was different then" - except by admitting that society is more morally evolved now than it was back them. This is obvious because we no longer stone people to death or enslave them - both of which were accepted practices in the OT.

[alexross8]

@EqualAndFree

I believe that people will find happiness if they actually try to.

Honestly, if my next door neighbor cared about a happy family that much, yet didn't want adoption to be an alternative, then I can't see why it would be immoral for a guy to have a child with another woman. Some women go to sperm banks, yet their husbands and family turn out OK. There should be no guilt in the pursuit of happiness.

[EqualAndFree]

@alexross8 Good. I mistakenly thought I was talking to a fundamentalist ;-) [Too often I am!]

[alexross8]

@EqualAndFree

Hitler thought the means to the end result was "good", because he thought that the result were to be good. I would try to stop my neighbor from sacrificing their child, because I don't see a good result.

But if a God comes out of nowhere and says "Hey look, your neighbor is doing a good thing. Please trust me", then I would have faith that the result be "good". I might still think that the means are iffy, because of the danger, but a miracle would convince me otherwise.

[EqualAndFree]

@alexross8

If I heard a voice in my head telling me to sacrifice my child I'd go and see my doctor.

If I was religious and heard such a voice I hope I'd assume it was a temptation from Satan.

To assume that it is a request from God is to assume that God is evil.

To consent to kill your child because God tells you to is to put obedience before morality.

[alexross8]

@EqualAndFree

Well of course a message from God would be doubtable. But as long as it was completely believable to the point of no doubt, I would obey. But to assume that the request is evil, I would think of the means and the result to be evil also. If God was a god of his word, then the result would be good; therefore, the means are good.

It's like murder.

Murder almost usually applies to humans, Killing animals is no different, Execution is also not different; the intentions are different.

[alexross8]

@EqualAndFree

Well of course a message from God would be doubtable. But as long as it was completely believable to the point of no doubt, I would obey. But to assume that the request is evil, I would think of the means and the result to be evil also. If God was a god of his word, then the result would be good; therefore, the means are good.

It's like murder.

Murder almost usually applies to humans, Killing animals is no different, Execution is also not different; the intentions are different.

[EqualAndFree]

@alexross8 I'm not buying it. Obedience is NEVER preferable to personal moral responsibility. Killing your children because you were told to is NEVER OK. If God told you to do so it's because God made a moral error. The Abraham story is actually about the historical phasing out of child sacrifice - which at his time died out in favor of animal sacrifice, but both traditions are still based on the idea of "atonement" or killing an innocent being to absolve the sins of a guilty person.

[alexross8]

@EqualAndFree

I would do something horrible only if I had faith that the outcome would be better. But when the result is good, then how would you say that the means were bad? Abraham attempted to sacrifice his son, all in good faith that God knew what he was doing.

Witnessing something like that, I would try to stop them at any cost. I would stop an insane ritualistic neighbor.

But if it was made known to me by God himself, I would have no problem with it, because there would be no doubt.

[alexross8]

@EqualAndFree

When Sarah got fed-up with Hagar, she kicked Hagar and her son out of the tribe; and like I said, Abraham had to respect that decision.

Now imagine an all-powerful God tells you to sacrifice your son. Lets say that you go through with it and your beloved son is spared. Despite the horrible situation, your faith has saved you and your son. Your faith is then made into an example for all people to follow. I don't understand how that's a horrible thing.

[TeboFire]

Chalk another one up for Ron Paul!

[NatDemUK]

Everyone check out this sicko YouTube user: depfox.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS GAY FAMILY VALUES!!

[Kilshot666]

Very interesting position Ron Paul has here.

He's married, straight and I'm assuming a Christian. He in turn as a person, based in his morals does not like the idea of, "Gay marriage" but does not think it is a matter should be deemed illegal based on a federal level.

Smaller Federal Government, more State Rights. Always a good choice

[hectorsalinasisback]

@Kilshot666 Good point. Also, Ron Paul is a Christian, but he knows it's wrong for someone to judge another person and yet claim to be a Christian. Ron Paul is Christ-like and we should respect his personal beliefs just as he respects our religious freedom as Americans. Dr. Paul knows that using your religion as a crutch to enhance your political career is selfish and not to mention, it shows that your motives are in the wrong place on a spiritual level.

[Kilshot666]

@hectorsalinasisback I'm not religious in any means, but I do agree that a lot of politicians rally the retarded masses with talk of, "God." Ron Paul is above that.

[missionarysarahbarry]

Let's examine your god's family values! Notice how god says a woman isn't free to choose to stay with her own husband & kids: If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for 6 years. But in the 7th year, he shall go free,paying nothing. If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him kids, the woman and her kids shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free. [Ex. 21:2-6]

[zdenko1945]

"Family values" in USA :

spreading hatred toward gays.

Family values in European Union:

1) One year maternity leave for each child 2) Ability to add your sick parent to your health insurance policy

3) Ability to obtain health care policy with "preexisting condition"

4) Free education system for everyone, even most poor kids

5) Politicians who do not talk about family values, but put their deeds where their mouth are.

AMERICANS ARE BUNCH OF HYPOCRYTES.

[Strega222]

I believe that as long as an act does not cause harm, or take from people, then it should not be illegal. Why shouldn't I be aloud to get married to another man? Because it makes you unhappy? I think the politicians in this country need to quit focusing on controlling the lives of the citizens, and focus on making life better for them. I think their should be an amendment to the constitution that prevents congress from out lawing something just because allot of politicians don't like it.

[LtSurge659]

@zdenko1945

>_>

You seem to know a lot about the EU.

Unfortunately, you haven't the best of knowledge of USA.

Your point of view also seems incompatible with that of capitalistic when it comes to #4. Of course, I could be wrong.

Did you know that if all schooling were privatized, it would cost the average student/parent less? Not to mention because the schools are competing, the quality of the education would be greater than that of "free" schools, which you end up paying for in taxes anyway.

[mydodgers1]

Ron Paul voted three (3) times for Section 245(i) amnesty for hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens. Ron Paul voted seven (7) times against allowing the U.S. military to aid the U.S. Border Patrol with border control functions.

[wvfisherguy]

PREEMPTIVE War is NOT a Christian value.

We have destryoed a sovereign nation that NEVER ATTACKED us

SO WHAT? He murdered hundreds of thousands of his own people! That's reason to take him out!

[wvfisherguy]

Christian values? Don't make me sick!  The Iraq War was not a mistake! Saddam Hussein needed to be taken out.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[zrunner240Z]

PREEMPTIVE War is NOT a Christian value.

We have destryoed a sovereign nation that NEVER ATTACKED us and have left it in shambles and have CREATED terrorists in the process. Saddam was WILLING to leave the country for 1 Billion dollars. We have spent 1 trillion thus far.Think about that!! War WAS NOT necessary.

[PRSpl4yer]

Oh please... I'd be happy to pay for a bullet proof vest, some MARPAT and an M4 for you to let you go see the country for yourself. You don't know how much we've helped these poor people, or would you rather them still be under a tyrannical dictator who has his own people gasses?

[zrunner240Z]

Oh grow up...when are you leaving for Dafur and the rest of the active killing fields of the world? Guess who supplied Saddam with his weapons and gas?? Can you guess???

[mooninquirer]

I agree. And the notion than fundamentalist Christian support these wars is disinformation spread by the Zionist media. Sure John Hagee and Pat Robertson support the wars ( because they are paid off by Israel ), but not their congragation.

Read "The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy" by Mearsheimer and Walt, where it says the Christian Zionists are a minor force in the Israel Lobby, and contribute very little money.

I have NEVER met a Christian who supports the wars.

[utubehayter]

what are christian values?

[mooninquirer]

Saddam was if anything an asset to the USA.

[ruthelator]

Ron Paul upholds Christian values:

*TRUTHFULNESS (even when unpopular); *OBEY THE LAW, our constitution; *HUMILITY; *REPENTENCE (change course when a mistake was made, like in Iraq); *PRO-LIFE; *COMPASSION "let's take care of people over here."; *BALANCED BUDGET(cut spending, cut taxes, no borrowing). Check his record! No other candidate upholds these values so consistently & courageously. He doesn't talk about his faith, he LIVES it, personally, professionally, & politically. Vote Ron Paul!

[wvfisherguy]

ron paul and family values don't go together.

[bhpatterson]

That depends on what you mean by "family values." (See what ruthelator wrote, first of all.) If by that you mean the federal government enforcing what it thinks are family values, then you're right. But that's exactly what the first American colonies were trying to get away from. And rightfully so: the government must always protect people's rights (e.g., by prohibiting abortions) but it can never change the heart.

A great family value is respecting people's individual consciences.

[DaveIrie]

The state having control & virtually owning your children is the exact opposite of valuing family.

[JATYmusic]

Either ALL citizens are equally entitled to pick the PERSON they choose to spend and share their lives with, or a religion is being imposed upon the citizens by the government, an unacceptable combination of Church and State.

Is Freedom not about letting the individual People decide for themselves? Since when is it the government's job AT ALL to tell people who (or what gender) they can form a relationship with.