Are you a Catholic? If not, then why do you bother with this? I am tired of people who spend their time attacking other peoples faith rather than promoting their own. If your belief system is superior to others, then why not spend your time proselytizing? Instead of trying to tear down the beliefs of others.
@jspencer733 At what point did I attack the Catholic faith itself? This is targeted specifically at the "Catholics Come Home" ad and the blatant lies it contains. I hardly think poking holes in propaganda counts as tearing down beliefs.
You are just as guilty here of being disingenious and making dubious claims as you say the Catholics Come Home commercials are. All you are doing with this video is distorting bits and peices of history to suit your world view. Shame. When you and the people who believe in this retoric give to humanity as much good as the Catholic Church has given, then we might listen. Until then you are just another lonely voice in the wilderness of delusion.
Ok, I would just like to say the that I agree that catholics come home has the sole intention of drawing in more members to the church, and maybe that it is out of desperation. However, they aren't trying to mislead people. To say it has nothing to do with how Catholicism is theologically superior to any other religion is a lie. The most important line in the commercial is that jesus laid the foundation for our church. That is the number one reason why people continue to stick with catholicism.
Catholics are experiencing self-consciousness because their congregation is shrinking. As for the Church's accomplishments, well, they have indeed accomplished a lot. The inquisition comes to mind most quickly.
Your priests raped children, and your bishops and cardinals turned those children away. Thousands of times. You still continue to hide evidence today. Catholics know you aren't representatives of God.
The advertisement shows there is a unique motivation behind Catholic science and medicine that for obvious reasons an atheist, etc. would not have. It shows people who might have thought the Church has EVER been opposed to science and learning to do some research and find out the opposite is true. Besides whoever loves Truth loves God and whoever loves God loves Truth, so perhaps on some level all scientists are already "one of us"?
Because many, many Christians, and for that matter other theists as well, have had trouble differentiating the literal from the allegorical, and opposed science (evolutionary biology to this day) as heretical. This wouldn't be a problem if people didn't dogmatically follow faith-based ideologies.
What I'm saying is that we should use science to pursue the truth for its own sake, not because some God says so. And studies show a minority of scientists are Catholic.
@AspiringPotato The problem is many believe in a God that is so transcendent He can be self-contradictory. Thus God can specially create life to look like it evolved and command violence while promoting peace. Catholicism on the other hand, being influenced by Hellenistic thought, understand God to be a rational being-- in fact _logos_ Itself-- and thus rejecting reason is to reject God. (cont.)
@tolkien1138 Once you recognize the hellenistic virtues of catholicism, or for that matter the rationalist virtues of hellenism, you might as well just cut out the middlemen and embrace rationalist virtues alone. Especially given the total lack of evidence for any sort of supreme entity.
@AspiringPotato To say that faith and reason cannot conflict when both are true is not the same as saying reason is the sole source of knowledge. This is where our epistemologies differ.
Faith is very bad when taken in large doses because then people can believe anything with white-knuckle conviction. One should have as little faith as possible, and not believe without evidence.
Please note I do not mean faith as in loyalty, such as "faithful spouse." That is a different meaning. The danger in faith is not that it always conflicts with reason, but rather that it can conflict with reason. If 1/1000 reasonable ideas are shot down because of faith, that's too much.
@AspiringPotato Faith properly understood not only does not always conflict with reason, it never conflicts with reason. As the First Vatican Council writes, "between faith and reason no true dissension can ever exist, since the same God, who reveals mysteries and infuses faith, has bestowed on the human soul the light of reason; moreover, God cannot deny Himself, nor ever contradict truth with truth. (cont.)
You seem to have absolutely no doubt in your faith. It is good to have a little bit of healthy doubt. I am an agnostic atheist; I am open to all possibilities but also ruthlessly critical of them.
Can you see the problems that could arise from a group of, say, Sunni Muslims claiming that science that contradicts their faith is not real science, since their faith is the only true faith, no doubt about.
@AspiringPotato "Real science" would mean that it meets *scientific* standards (e.g. the data has been properly collected, the conclusion doesn't overreach what has been demonstrated, etc.). To declare it false on the basis of faith requires a rejection of the scientific method itself and resorts to the fideism I have been opposing since the start of this conversation. That would be an example of a false faith.
@AspiringPotato But, a vain appearance of such a contradiction arises chiefly from this, that either the dogmas of faith have not been understood and interpreted according to the mind of the Church, or deceitful opinions are considered as the determinations of reason. "
@AspiringPotato Fundamentalism has over the last few centuries asserted a process of "dehellenization" in an attempt to a "purer" form of faith free from alien influences. This is essentially the Pope's thesis in his Regensburg address (probably more famous for upsetting Muslims than anything actually said).
God has placed in the human heart a desire for truth. You make it sound like it’s an order. When truth is pursued diligently and honestly, it will inevitably lead to the same place.
by the Arab conquerers in the 7th century. 3) No impartial scholar would rely on the Black Legend for any details on the Spanish Inquisition, including the illustrations. 4) That Christianity *ever* had a chance at running the world is misleading. As G.K. Chesterton commented, "The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried."
Another point: I am an engineer because I am Catholic, not an engineer who happens to be Catholic. (cont.)
A few things that are disingenuous in your own video, that as a matter of good faith you might want to reconsider: 1) how can you quantify scientific advancement? There was nothing "dark" about the Dark Ages, other than there is a lack of sources remaining from the period. That's what the term originally means. 2) There was no "order" to destroy the library of Alexandria. There was an order to destroy pagan temples, but no library is mentioned. In fact some sources claim it was destroyed(cont.)
@MsCampobasso Oh no, I'm so wounded! A passage from the Bible about a fictional place has truly done me in. Evidently you and every other Catholic is either deaf, or didn't bother watching the video; you simply commented on it as soon as you read the title. At what point did I say that this is about the Church? It's about the organization leading the advertising campaign, and how misleading they are.
@diagoras54 hi. actually, the commercial is not misleading. this is due to the fact that what has been said in the commercial are all based on things that the Church has been and is still doing until this day... there may have been dark sides to the History of the Church like what happened to Galileo Galilei in the study of science (and the Church acknowledges the error). however, it doesn't mean that the Church isn't credible to say that they still are giving more opportunities for education.
@diagoras54@diagoras54 continuation: It is just discouraging that people who do not believe in God would always dwell on the shortcomings of any religion to feed their own ideology (Atheism). i say it once again, The Catholic Church isn't a perfect religion. but despite its dark past, isn't it worth wondering why it has still stood firm after 2000 years? i know you'll not agree with me, but i think there really is Someone who's been around to protect the Church and those who believe in it. ^_^
@diagoras54 We heard your comments. You say the "organization" were making false claims about the Catholic Church and yet continued on to slander the Church history with false claims of your own. We know our Church history and we live it precepts. We also know slander and retoric when we see it. As you tried to pointed out in this video, It is disingenuous to hide behind objectiviey when you have an agenda.
The RCC ascended from the Pit ~ And the Pope with his deception of the child abuse cover ups ~ ends up bashing himself.
Benny would want to watch that he does not fall down tripping over the hem of his dress.
Hells apostles live in the Vatican, Satan is not going to try destroy his own invention, now is it? ~ he wants to have another inquisition against true believers & Jews ~ using the Pope as the source, yes RCC IS NASTY NASTY.
Oh why did 'diagoras' fail to mention that the whole world over used torture techniques - not just the Church - who used them more less than secular courts! Don't forget the atrocities enacted by 'good' Queen Bess on her Catholic subjects please! Uggh! And remember nobody in the entire world understood the cause and spread of disease - until quite recently! Wow atheists have a twisted worldview that arises totally out of their hatred for Catholicism! Ha ha!
@amaqula You clearly are not a student of history, nor for that matter capable of listening to the video on which you're commenting. I explicitly stated that science was carried out in the ancient world before Christianity, and in Muslim countries before 1277. Science and religion are completely unrelated, and, in fact, contradictory; I suggest you watch my video entitled "Science vs. Religion".
Science and religion are not totally unrelated actually! Science needs the proper philosophical soil before it can flourish freely! The Catholic Church provided this - and freed science from the restraints of previous false philosophical assertions! If you don't know this - then you can't call yourself a historian!
@amaqula What "philosophical soil" did the Catholic Church provide? "Jesus died for your sins, and if you don't believe that you're going to hell"? The fundamental problem with religion, and the reason it conflicts with science, is that religion is based on the principle of "god did it". You can't believe both that god is responsible, and that there are purely natural explanations, so the Church set out to prevent advocates of science from presenting any idea which could contradict dogma.
The Catholic Church doesn't teach anything quite so simplistic - so brush up on your knowledge please! Christianity and science never conflict - they have the same source - God Himself! They completment each other - history proves this. There are natural explanations - but the sourse of nature and its laws is God Himself. Any idea that contradicts Catholic dogma is false - and a wast of time. No wonder so many dead end atheist scienctific ventures then eh?
@amaqula Very simply and clearly, I want an explanation of what philosophical concepts that are essential for science that came from the Catholic Church, and only the Catholic Church. Every philosophical argument I've heard with regards to any branch of Christianity relates to transubstantiation, the Trinity, or some other theological construct, nothing about the natural world.
The Condemnations of 1277 gives an idea of those Christian philosophical truths that underpinned the advancement of science! The banned articles included notions that the world was eternal there never was a first human that God does not know things other than Himself etc! When the Christian viewpoint was strenghtened science proceeded! The Christian view point atheist scientists tend to resist! Hmmm.....not as clever as they like to think!
@amaqula Banning ideas is not a philosophical argument. "This guy's beliefs are wrong" is not a philosophical position, nor is it dependent upon Catholicism; anyone could have come to the same conclusions. I want a solid philosophical argument, which would be something like "Empiricism is fundamental for the pursuit of science". If you can't provide that, then I have no further interest in anything you have to say.
@amaqula How could they possibly be in concert? One relies on a purely natural explanation, and one relies on a purely supernatural explanation. Science seeks to find a solution without having to fall back on the supernatural, whereas religion's answer is "god did it". Why bother assuming god was acting through natural mechanisms? It's adding an extra step and contradicts Occam's Razor in the same way as attributing a car accident to someone wishing ill fortune upon you.
Behind the workings of the natural world - there is the supernatural world! Religion certainly says God did it - and we seek to know how He did it - what laws did He enact and how did He order creation! These make the best scientists! Becasuse they know there is a cohesive comprehensive reasoning behind everything - that joins everything together. Atheists scientists don't have this notion.
@amaqula The far simpler explanation is that the road was icy, so why add an extra force for which there's no evidence?
What "dead end atheist scientific ventures"? Science is carried out by theists, agnostics and atheists alike, and thrives on freedom of thought, not a specific ideology. By dictating what's true and what isn't, you can do nothing but hinder science.
No - science does not thrive on freedom - as you people like to think - and it shows in your underwhelming scientific results - science thrives on TRUTH Science is truth. Science fiction thrives on novelty. But its no use in the real world I'm afraid! By dictating the philosophical ideas which are true - the Church guides science in the right direction! And always will!
@amaqula All of your latest posts have indicated that you are nothing but an irrational idealogue. How can you think that freedom would be detrimental to the pursuit of ideas? For that matter, how could you think that restricting any freedom would be a good thing? You've demonstrated the fundamental flaw with believing that science and religion benefit each other: if truth can be dictated, then why do we need to bother with science? Why doesn't the Church just tell us what's true?
@amaqula If science will prove that your religion is correct then you should have no fears of an objective assessment of reality. This brings us back to the fundamental issue with Galileo: the Church dictated that his ideas, which were absolutely 100% correct, were wrong. THE DICTUM WAS WRONG. THE CHURCH WAS WRONG. By dictating "truth", they imposed a false understanding of the world.
The Church did not say Galilleo was wrong - but that he tried to impugn the Holy Bible in his thesis - and that he had published his findings without full proof! The Church has nothing to fear from scientific truth - and never had! All truth whether material or spiritual comes from God - and He does not contradict Himself! You can rest assured of that! Atheists do not own the material world - they are merely investigating God's Creation!
@amaqula Yes, they did say he was wrong: Cardinal Bellarmine ordered him not to discuss, or even to believe, that the Earth moves and isn't the centre of the universe. You're lying. His ideas contradicted the Bible, and they were banned, which could only lead to the suppression of the truth. Was god lying when he told the authors of the Bible that the universe is geocentric, or when he told the Inquisition to ban Galileo's findings?
@amaqula If the pope is divinely inspired and has access to absolute truth, why would he impose an incorrect notion? The only reason Galileo's ideas survived was because they spread in Protestant countries, despite the best efforts of the Catholics; ironically, the Catholic Church was supporting the Aristotelian geocentrism it had supposedly banned in 1277.
The Pope is only infallibe when he speaks of matters of faith and moral - ex cathedra! Meaning certain conditions must be met! And Galilleo was imprisioned because he implied his findings proved the Holy Bible incorrect - when in fact said quotation is to be taken figuratively not literally!
@amaqula It doesn't matter how you interpret the passage, the fact is that an idea which is true was declared illegal, and if that had stood we would have no more understanding of space than Aristotle. Science can't advance when people aren't allowed to discuss their thoughts, especially when those thoughts are true.
@amaqula If you claim that the Vatican makes mistakes because of the influence of "fallen" humans, then how do we know when the orders come from god, and when they come from humans? Are the true ideas from god, and the false ones from humans, and if that's so, how do we know which ideas are true? Do we use science, and if we do, why bother with dicta? Science reveals the truth, and making a pronouncement that it's true is redundant.
Sometimes it takes time to decipher which is which - but we get there in the end! God only propounds truth - but humans are driven by all kinds of desires etc Matters philosophical are outside the scope of science - but when science is brought to bear where it can - it always supports the teachings of the Church! For instance - science tells us that the fusion of sperm and egg produces an other human being with its unique and full quota of human DNA!
@amaqula HOW DO WE GET THERE IN THE END? If the church is going to tell us what's true, and the Church is wrong, then how do we find the truth? If science is banned because it contradicts Catholic dogma but that science is true, how do we get to the truth? Your vagaries have grown tiresome, and you haven't actually answered any of my objections.
@amaqula Science was suppressed under the early Catholic Church, as I said, and only began to spread once the Church loosened its grip, which was the real effect of 1277. After that, however, restrictions were again imposed: I showed an image of a list of books banned by the Church because they were opposed to orthodox doctrine. Science only truly began to expand after the Reformation, because of the lack of an organized attempt to crush anything which even caused questioning of Catholicism.
Ha ha how you twist the effect of 1277! The only thing that loosed it's grip in 1277 was the false anti-Christian heresies of Aristotle! After that science flourished - and so did Europe! True philosophy feeds true science! They are 2 sides of the one coin!
@amaqula How could Aristotle have been anti-Christian when he lived 300 years before Jesus? You really must be an imbecile. For the Church to outlaw any idea, right or wrong, is a hindrance to both philosophy and science; it's up to science to determine what's true, not an authoritarian to dictate it. Science flourished not because of the Church, but because it loosened its grip. Scientists were allowed to pursue their interests freely, and it's that freedom of ideas which feeds knowledge.
Aristotle was not an anti-Christ!! But that which he said which contradicted Christianity ie truth - was false and misleading scienctists. The Church MUST condemn ideas that are false - that is her job. No wonder atheists don't do science so much - they value what is novel not what is true. Science is the quest for truth - not novelty or freedom. Truth not freedom is what counts! Surely that is basic?!
@amaqula I did not, at any time, say that Aristotle was an anti-Christ you moron. It's impossible for him to have been anti-Christian when he lived 300 years before Jesus; he couldn't have tailored his ideas to contradict those of Jesus, and just having a difference of opinion does not make him anti-Christian. In order for him to be anti-Christian he would have to have made a conscious effort to oppose Christianity.
@amaqula Everyone is free to condemn ideas that are false, but no one is allowed to dictate what scientific facts are true and what aren't. Aristotle was wrong on a lot of things, but he was right too, and so were many of the people whose works were banned by the Church just because they contradicted a specific dogma. By banning ideas, the Church was hindering discourse, and they would have silenced it, and any science which contradicted their beliefs, had they had the ability.
But not everybody is right then! If A says a is right and B says b is right - they cannot both be right! The Church alone can decipher what is philosophically true - or false!! We should only be interested in ideas that are true! There is no point in ideas that are false! The Church tells which are which! Ignore her at your peril! Oh I forgot you already are - too bad for you!
@amaqula No, the Church cannot decipher that, and has frequently been wrong when attempting to do so. Only science can do so, because it's based on objective facts; the answer is the same, regardless of who comes to the conclusion, as demonstrated by scientists coming to the same conclusion independently (see Darwin and Wallace).
Science needs inspiration to guide it as to where the next new discovery is to be! It must make hypotheses - especially in the mathematics and physics spheres first. Only then can it experiment to deduce whether these hypotheses are true! This is what is lacking in today's philosophically uncertain atheist scientists! They have an erroneous worldview - and the biggest error of all - that because they are atheist they are somehow uniquely gifted scientifically!
@amaqula The inspiration comes from people asking questions; if the religion already knows which direction science needs to go, then it must have the knowledge of what needs to be discovered. If that's the case, then why not just tell us the answers? Again, WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF SCIENCE IF RELIGION ALREADY KNOWS EVERYTHING?
@amaqula By telling us which ideas are true and which are false, the Church undoubtedly will be incorrect, especially when basing its decisions on its theology and preconceptions, not facts. You are turning humans into mindless automatons: believe what you're told to believe, and if you think any other way you'll be punished. It's entirely astonishing that you reject the notion of freedom of thought.
The Church's philosophical pronouncements are always logical! They are based on one tenet of faith - the Christ is God Himself - if this is true then all that derives from it will be true! If this is false then all that derives from it will be false! The greatest scientists of the past 1000+ years when science skyrocketted held it to be true - the present lot hold it to be false. So they are without direction! A true world view is what the Church brings to the science world
@amaqula "All that derives from it" does not include science. Science has absolutely nothing to do with whether Jesus is god, and in fact, when I raised that issue as being Catholic philosophy, you dismissed it as irrelevant. You seem to be incapable of maintaining a position; do actually have a point, or are you intentionally annoying me?
@amaqula The Dutch and Germans were ardent supporters and funders of scientific research, giving us such developments as the microscope and telescope at the same time as Galileo was locked up for publishing his very correct findings.
Yeah Dutch and Germans were ardent supporteres of the scientific research - and they were Catholic too! Gallileo had a spat with the Church for various - but it didn't deter the progress of science! I always think it is dishonest of atheists to focus on Galilleo's run in with the Church - while at the same time ignoring the tremendous impact of the 1277 condemnations! What are you trying to achiev?
@amaqula Germany, home of Lutheranism and the Reformation? The Netherlands, home of the Dutch Reformed Church, and a movement to expel the Catholic Spanish rulers? Johannes Kepler, Isaac Newton, Tycho Brahe, all coincided with the Protestant Reformation. It's not simply that the Church rejected Galileo's ideas, it's that they did so until 1992, and it's in no way dishonest to point out that the Church rejects basic scientific facts. You have a pathetic double standard.
Yeah diagoras - but at the time of Galileo which you mentioned Germany and Belgiium etc were ALL Catholic. Yes Protestantism did produce many great scientists - but they were still believers in the Incarnation ie that Christ is God Himself! The Church rejected Gallileo because he had not presented any proof of his theory when he published his theory! And it was an atheist that told me that!
@amaqula Actually, no. That's just wrong. Germany was at least half, probably 3/4 Protestant, and I have made no mention of Belgium whatsoever. Bringing that up is like me saying "Yeah, but Turkey was Muslim at the time"; it's entirely irrelevant. Are you mentally retarded? How many scientists came from Catholic countries at the time? This isn't a rhetorical question, I want a real answer.
I told you at the time of Galilleo the Reformation had not begun and all Europe was Catholic! How hard is that to grasp! And religion is higly pertinent - otherwise science would have taken root in any nation in the world - but it only rooted in Christian nations - for good reason!!
@amaqula Not properly taken hold? Almost a century had passed between Luther posting his objections and Galileo publishing his findings; that's at least three generations raised entirely within Protestantism, so how could they still have had a "Catholic mindset"? The Thirty Years' War started eight years after Galileo first saw Jupiter's moons over the rejection of Catholicism.
@amaqula You are, without a doubt, the most idiotic person I have ever encoutered. Doubtlessly others have had lower intelligence, but of all the apologists with whom I have held discussions, you are the only one who utterly rejects the basic premises of science. While the others were misguided and led to incorrect conclusions, you abandon the conclusions altogether unless they are dictated to you by your religious leaders.
My religious leaders reject no science that is morally undertaken - but they do reject false philosophical ideas! False philosophical ideas lead to false world views which lead scientists to scientific dead ends! I don't abandon any scientific conclusions - cos my religious leaders don't dismiss any! They are in the business of philosophy - not science! I think they should get back in the business of science again - atheists have lost the plot!
@amaqula BUT HOW DO THEY DIVISE WHETHER THOSE IDEAS ARE FALSE OR NOT? Stop dancing around these issues and answer the question. According to you, religion decides whether science is right, and it knows what's right based on science. The two are mutually incompatible. If your religious leaders aren't in the business of science, then why do they ban ideas, and who are they to decide upon what's true?
@amaqula You have no interest in science, logic, or reality. Your mentality is the greatest threat to modern society: submitting ourselves without question to an authority can only be detrimental, and your views on science would only lead to our demise were they to spread. You are an abomination on humanity. I have no further interest in discussing anything with you if you are unable or unwilling to engage in rational debate.
Ha ha ha - atheism is the greatest threat to civilisation - on every level! Atheists don't even produce sufficient children to replace themselves never mind to multiply! You are a dead weight around the neck of any society - takers not givers! Useless! Atheist don't do rational debate - cos it exposes all their little absurdities and illogicalities - like just how do you progress and evolve on a 0.8 children per atheist woman! Answer - you don't!
@amaqula What does birthrate have to do with ideas? Ideas have value because they spread between people; do you think that people can only have the religion they were born with? It doesn't matter if the people in the secular West all die out, if their ideas are accepted by people in other parts of the world. Ideas spread regardless of race, religion, sex, or country.
@amaqula You voided the right to rational thought the moment you said that ideas must be suppressed and that science doesn't need freedom of thought. You couldn't provide me with a single philosophical idea deriving from Catholicism alone that's necessary for the pursuit of science despite that being your original point.
@amaqula You couldn't, or wouldn't, provide me with a single example of a scientific concept that couldn't have been found without Catholicism, or an "atheist" idea that fell apart without religion. You've done nothing but run around in circles without providing a single fact, ignore my questions, lie, and demonstrate your sheer stupidity. We have no further business.
@amaqula I expect concrete examples and sources for your information; if your next posts lack these, or amount to "You're wrong and you're going to hell and the Catholic Church should be obeyed without question" I will ban you. Don't mistake this for trying to restrict your freedom of speech, although you seem to willing to abandon that and every other freedom altogether; rather, I simply have no further interest in your inanity.
@amaqula No proof? "I looked through my telescope and saw heavenly bodies around Jupiter." What more proof would you like? He didn't have photography so he couldn't take pictures, but all you have to do is look through a cheap pair of binoculars to confirm his theory. And how could banning his ideas possibly be conducive to scientific advancement?
@amaqula If we outlawed every idea for which there wasn't sufficient evidence, we wouldn't have made any progress at all. It isn't up to the Church to decide what's true and what isn't; leave the theory alone and let more evidence be gathered to confirm or refute it.
It is up to the Church to decide what is true or false - in the area of philosophy faith and morals! That is her Divine mission! And if the Church didn't declare false ideas false - then we would be led in the wrong direction - and never develop. And today we are led by false philosophies - which are taking us to the brink of self-extermination! But we are too proud and too stupid to admit it!
You don't have to outlaw every idea - but only a fool would disregard the teachings of the Church! We are already seeing the sad death of those nations that do! Silly boos!
@amaqula Yes, torture was prevalent in the Middle Ages and Renaissance, but I pointed it out specifically in this context because the ad only demonstrates the good aspects of the Church. History should never be a study of the positive, but of reality, and to try to convince new members that the Catholic Church is, and always has been, benevolent is a lie.
But you didn't put the information into context did you?! It seems like only the Catholic Church was engaged in torture etc! In fact the Church courts were much more lenient than the secular courts - and many criminals blasphemed so they would be tried by the Church! The Church is not always benevolent -cos she operates in a Fallen world - where life is very tough even on innocent people - especially before the advent of today's luxury!!
@amaqula The ad didn't put the info into context either, and I never, not once, said that this video is a condemnation of the Catholic Church. Read the video description: it's entirely in regards to Catholics Come Home and their desire to deceive others into joining their church. I'm not arguing about history, I'm arguing that you can't get people to join your organization by only showing them the good sides.
@amaqula And don't try to blame the failings of your Church on the evils of everyone else; Catholics are humans, driven by human desires and human failings, and when they screw up it's because they're no more holy than anyone else.
Exactly - Catholics are humans dreiven by human desires etc - they are Fallen human beings! At least they admit it and know what they have to do about it - unlike atheists who are allowed indulge themselves in their fallen nature and who deny any thing like good or evil - or at very least haven't got a properly worked out comprehensive theory about this or any aspect of life.
Oh and I forgot to say - that though Catholics are human and have failing etc etc - the Church though run by humans is Divine in its foundation ie Jesus Christ (God Himself) and is overseen by the Holy Spirit. So it is a joint venture between the Divine and the Human!
@amaqula Catholicism, Christianity, and religion in general are hinderances on the modern world, and the sooner we abandon them the sooner we can improve our world.
You won't get rid of the Church actually! We have Christ (God Himself)'s word on that! You will get rid of yourselves though - have you seen your birthrates lately?! Hilarious!!
Since "God Himself" has a pretty poor track record of keeping his word, and even demonstrating that they exist, ALL of your claims about the future outcomes based on their word remain pretty much hollow, just like your religionist cranium. None of your beliefs are based on anything real. Nothing about your religion is real, "except for its obsession with death", as Pat Condell put it. And that's all there is to it, really.
And if you are so certain that your long-term victory is guaranteed by "God Himself", why do you even bother coming on the Internet and trying to help? All you end up doing is proving the secularists right on how religion poisons ones mind, and why it must be eradicated ASAP for humanity to survive.? Does "God Himself" needs your help? Or do you do it because deep down inside your manure-filled cranium you know that it's all bullshit that will fall apart without morons like you adhering to it?
Ha ha - where did Jesus Christ promise His followers victory?! Nowhere - He said 'if they persecute Me - they will persecute you'! There is NO earthly victory! Christians are promised persecution and hatred! So the fact of their earthly achievements seem like a remarkable piece of icing on a cake! Thank you for that unexpected piece of success Lord - no wonder they are tearing their hair out to deny us it!
Bwahahahaha! I love it when Christians and Muslims start playing the persecution card when they realize that they have nothing of substance to offer against their intellectual opponents! Is it any wonder why religion losing grounds so rapidly these days?
And besides, who's persecuting you? You are free to believe you bullshit as you see fit, just have the decency not to expect others to take it seriously and pretend that it has anything to do with reality, and then cry "persecution" about it.
No body's persecuting me - thank God - but Christians were promised persecution - which we got in bucketfulls. However - we were never promised earthly glory prestige and world leadership in the scientific artistic commercial etc worlds - but we also got that in bucketfulls too - more than any other people in history. Watch for a repeat performance!
So why did science develop within these very Catholic nations if Catholicism was such a hinderence?! You don't answer that! Why didn't science develop in pagan nations like China - or the US before it became Christian? Strange isn't it! And in 1277 when the Church banned some false heresies of Aristotle that had held science back for centuries did science proceed!
"So why did science develop within these very Catholic nations"
It didn't, at least not until your evil church lost enough of its political power to be less destructive. And since you mentioned the United States, that was never a Catholic country, and never will be, that kinda makes your claim dishonest. But then, being a dishonest snake in the grass to make sky-daddy's dick hard was never too much of an issue for religious drones, and you are no different.
It did actually! Europe had been advancing in leaps and bounds since the 1200's! So how dare you dismiss it! Without my church - you wouldn't be where you are today! The west can't even stand up without the Church - look at its ever declining birhtrates - on a road straight into the jaws of Islam! Just desserts! And you never mentioned 1277?!?
" Europe had been advancing in leaps and bounds since the 1200's!"
The scientific revolution took place around the 16th century, after the Protestant Reformation, which significantly weakened that evil organization that you are so willing to defend with outright lies without blushing, like the good religionist drone that you are.
"Without my church - you wouldn't be where you are today!"
Correct. We probably would have flying cars and cities on Mars, if it weren't for your church.
Ha ha now that atheist scientists are all alone without any clerical input at all - they have cancelled their space program - are outwitted by new strains of bacteria and the growing resistance of old strains - have had NO new breakthroughs since the early 1970's (BBC Radio 4) when they took over completely - but still continue to depend on old Christian science! It's not looking good for them! The birth of modern science took place in 1277 - thanks to the interference of the Catholic Church:P
"Ha ha now that atheist scientists are all alone without any clerical input at all "
Scientists need a "clerical input" about as much as a slug needs a salt.
Space exploration goes pretty well, and will become even better once the private sector expands its involvement in it. NONE of the problems science faces now can be remedied with religion, and we both know it. So please don't try to insult our intelligence by suggesting that listening to your religion will give us anything but destruction
" The birth of modern science took place in 1277"
More lies from the mouth of the religionist drone. Science existed centuries before Christianity, as early as Babylon, and the scientific revolution(Which is basically an admission of ignorance on our part) didn't occur until the 16th century. You are completely out of touch with reality. But you're not alone. It's a requirement of religion. You are just one of many billions of brain-dead religious drones who keep the evils of religion alive.
"The west can't even stand up without the Church - look at its ever declining birhtrates"
Yes it can. Your insane obsession with birthrates is pathetic really, like your religion. It's not about quantity of people, but quality, and because the west has the most secular and rational people, on average it has the most qualitative ones, as you would expect when people embrace reason and ditch evil superstition.
And since the birth rates among Muslims are also rapidly declining, both in immigrant population in the West, as well as in Muslim countries, you point about Islam is increasingly becoming moot(Though it is still a threat to world peace, regardless). Your ancient superstition is going down the gutter of history as science advances, but so is theirs, so don't feel to bad about it. The west was doing fine before Christianity, and will fare pretty well many years after it, so don't worry.
Excellent video. Now if we can only get the credulous masses to engage their discriminating intellect (or bullshit meter) maybe they can see that even the people or organization they hold so dear can do evil things. It is a part of the human condition - this handing over of our ability to see bullshit for bullshit and good shit for good shit. It can be as harmless as a fanatical music fan loving everything their favorite artist does - even if it`s just recorded farts. Or blinded parishioners
So true it was used in all the great ancient societies from Rome to Ancient India thousands of years before the JudeoChristian Monotheistic religions.
Many of the Ancient cultures had everything from Astronomy, chemistry, biology and many other science and used it to create many of the things we still use today like cloths, surgery, antibiotics, farming, plumbing hydraulics, sewage systems, the wheel, wootz steal, bronze, cranes, the arch, water fountains..... The list goes on and on.
All long before your false religion. Maybe you should read a book other than the bible.
Are you a Catholic? If not, then why do you bother with this? I am tired of people who spend their time attacking other peoples faith rather than promoting their own. If your belief system is superior to others, then why not spend your time proselytizing? Instead of trying to tear down the beliefs of others.
jspencer733 1 month ago
@jspencer733 At what point did I attack the Catholic faith itself? This is targeted specifically at the "Catholics Come Home" ad and the blatant lies it contains. I hardly think poking holes in propaganda counts as tearing down beliefs.
diagoras54 1 month ago
Nevertheless, as God commands we continue to pray for those who persecute God and His Church.
peipappy1 4 months ago
You are just as guilty here of being disingenious and making dubious claims as you say the Catholics Come Home commercials are. All you are doing with this video is distorting bits and peices of history to suit your world view. Shame. When you and the people who believe in this retoric give to humanity as much good as the Catholic Church has given, then we might listen. Until then you are just another lonely voice in the wilderness of delusion.
peipappy1 4 months ago
Ok, I would just like to say the that I agree that catholics come home has the sole intention of drawing in more members to the church, and maybe that it is out of desperation. However, they aren't trying to mislead people. To say it has nothing to do with how Catholicism is theologically superior to any other religion is a lie. The most important line in the commercial is that jesus laid the foundation for our church. That is the number one reason why people continue to stick with catholicism.
jrobbinz1 7 months ago
Under this pope there is nothing to come home too. I tried...
oakking1 9 months ago
Catholics ARE home.
ChrisDaron 9 months ago
Catholics are experiencing self-consciousness because their congregation is shrinking. As for the Church's accomplishments, well, they have indeed accomplished a lot. The inquisition comes to mind most quickly.
drcrank 10 months ago
Your priests raped children, and your bishops and cardinals turned those children away. Thousands of times. You still continue to hide evidence today. Catholics know you aren't representatives of God.
patrickomalleyy 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
*Roger Bacon, not Francis.
tolkien1138 1 year ago
*Roger Bacon, not Francis
tolkien1138 1 year ago
The advertisement shows there is a unique motivation behind Catholic science and medicine that for obvious reasons an atheist, etc. would not have. It shows people who might have thought the Church has EVER been opposed to science and learning to do some research and find out the opposite is true. Besides whoever loves Truth loves God and whoever loves God loves Truth, so perhaps on some level all scientists are already "one of us"?
tolkien1138 1 year ago
@tolkien1138
Do you believe that Genesis is real or fictional?
AspiringPotato 8 months ago
@AspiringPotato I believe it's allegorical/mythological. Why?
tolkien1138 8 months ago
@tolkien1138
Because many, many Christians, and for that matter other theists as well, have had trouble differentiating the literal from the allegorical, and opposed science (evolutionary biology to this day) as heretical. This wouldn't be a problem if people didn't dogmatically follow faith-based ideologies.
What I'm saying is that we should use science to pursue the truth for its own sake, not because some God says so. And studies show a minority of scientists are Catholic.
AspiringPotato 8 months ago
@AspiringPotato The problem is many believe in a God that is so transcendent He can be self-contradictory. Thus God can specially create life to look like it evolved and command violence while promoting peace. Catholicism on the other hand, being influenced by Hellenistic thought, understand God to be a rational being-- in fact _logos_ Itself-- and thus rejecting reason is to reject God. (cont.)
tolkien1138 8 months ago
@tolkien1138 Once you recognize the hellenistic virtues of catholicism, or for that matter the rationalist virtues of hellenism, you might as well just cut out the middlemen and embrace rationalist virtues alone. Especially given the total lack of evidence for any sort of supreme entity.
AspiringPotato 8 months ago
@AspiringPotato To say that faith and reason cannot conflict when both are true is not the same as saying reason is the sole source of knowledge. This is where our epistemologies differ.
tolkien1138 8 months ago
@tolkien1138
Faith is very bad when taken in large doses because then people can believe anything with white-knuckle conviction. One should have as little faith as possible, and not believe without evidence.
Please note I do not mean faith as in loyalty, such as "faithful spouse." That is a different meaning. The danger in faith is not that it always conflicts with reason, but rather that it can conflict with reason. If 1/1000 reasonable ideas are shot down because of faith, that's too much.
AspiringPotato 8 months ago
@AspiringPotato Faith properly understood not only does not always conflict with reason, it never conflicts with reason. As the First Vatican Council writes, "between faith and reason no true dissension can ever exist, since the same God, who reveals mysteries and infuses faith, has bestowed on the human soul the light of reason; moreover, God cannot deny Himself, nor ever contradict truth with truth. (cont.)
tolkien1138 8 months ago
@tolkien1138
You seem to have absolutely no doubt in your faith. It is good to have a little bit of healthy doubt. I am an agnostic atheist; I am open to all possibilities but also ruthlessly critical of them.
Can you see the problems that could arise from a group of, say, Sunni Muslims claiming that science that contradicts their faith is not real science, since their faith is the only true faith, no doubt about.
AspiringPotato 8 months ago
@AspiringPotato "Real science" would mean that it meets *scientific* standards (e.g. the data has been properly collected, the conclusion doesn't overreach what has been demonstrated, etc.). To declare it false on the basis of faith requires a rejection of the scientific method itself and resorts to the fideism I have been opposing since the start of this conversation. That would be an example of a false faith.
tolkien1138 8 months ago
@AspiringPotato But, a vain appearance of such a contradiction arises chiefly from this, that either the dogmas of faith have not been understood and interpreted according to the mind of the Church, or deceitful opinions are considered as the determinations of reason. "
tolkien1138 8 months ago
@AspiringPotato Fundamentalism has over the last few centuries asserted a process of "dehellenization" in an attempt to a "purer" form of faith free from alien influences. This is essentially the Pope's thesis in his Regensburg address (probably more famous for upsetting Muslims than anything actually said).
God has placed in the human heart a desire for truth. You make it sound like it’s an order. When truth is pursued diligently and honestly, it will inevitably lead to the same place.
tolkien1138 8 months ago
It is not incidental for me, and I can't assume anything different on the part of Francis Bacon. (cont.)
tolkien1138 1 year ago
by the Arab conquerers in the 7th century. 3) No impartial scholar would rely on the Black Legend for any details on the Spanish Inquisition, including the illustrations. 4) That Christianity *ever* had a chance at running the world is misleading. As G.K. Chesterton commented, "The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried."
Another point: I am an engineer because I am Catholic, not an engineer who happens to be Catholic. (cont.)
tolkien1138 1 year ago
A few things that are disingenuous in your own video, that as a matter of good faith you might want to reconsider: 1) how can you quantify scientific advancement? There was nothing "dark" about the Dark Ages, other than there is a lack of sources remaining from the period. That's what the term originally means. 2) There was no "order" to destroy the library of Alexandria. There was an order to destroy pagan temples, but no library is mentioned. In fact some sources claim it was destroyed(cont.)
tolkien1138 1 year ago
LASSIE COME HOME
glizag 1 year ago
You can try and bash the Church all you want, but Christ said "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it".......now go lick your wounds.
MsCampobasso 1 year ago
@MsCampobasso Oh no, I'm so wounded! A passage from the Bible about a fictional place has truly done me in. Evidently you and every other Catholic is either deaf, or didn't bother watching the video; you simply commented on it as soon as you read the title. At what point did I say that this is about the Church? It's about the organization leading the advertising campaign, and how misleading they are.
diagoras54 1 year ago 3
@diagoras54 hi. actually, the commercial is not misleading. this is due to the fact that what has been said in the commercial are all based on things that the Church has been and is still doing until this day... there may have been dark sides to the History of the Church like what happened to Galileo Galilei in the study of science (and the Church acknowledges the error). however, it doesn't mean that the Church isn't credible to say that they still are giving more opportunities for education.
jprsdbfuture 7 months ago
@diagoras54@diagoras54 continuation: It is just discouraging that people who do not believe in God would always dwell on the shortcomings of any religion to feed their own ideology (Atheism). i say it once again, The Catholic Church isn't a perfect religion. but despite its dark past, isn't it worth wondering why it has still stood firm after 2000 years? i know you'll not agree with me, but i think there really is Someone who's been around to protect the Church and those who believe in it. ^_^
jprsdbfuture 7 months ago
@diagoras54 We heard your comments. You say the "organization" were making false claims about the Catholic Church and yet continued on to slander the Church history with false claims of your own. We know our Church history and we live it precepts. We also know slander and retoric when we see it. As you tried to pointed out in this video, It is disingenuous to hide behind objectiviey when you have an agenda.
peipappy1 4 months ago
The RCC ascended from the Pit ~ And the Pope with his deception of the child abuse cover ups ~ ends up bashing himself.
Benny would want to watch that he does not fall down tripping over the hem of his dress.
Hells apostles live in the Vatican, Satan is not going to try destroy his own invention, now is it? ~ he wants to have another inquisition against true believers & Jews ~ using the Pope as the source, yes RCC IS NASTY NASTY.
glizag 1 year ago
Oh why did 'diagoras' fail to mention that the whole world over used torture techniques - not just the Church - who used them more less than secular courts! Don't forget the atrocities enacted by 'good' Queen Bess on her Catholic subjects please! Uggh! And remember nobody in the entire world understood the cause and spread of disease - until quite recently! Wow atheists have a twisted worldview that arises totally out of their hatred for Catholicism! Ha ha!
CATHOLIC STATE FOREVER!
amaqula 1 year ago
@amaqula You clearly are not a student of history, nor for that matter capable of listening to the video on which you're commenting. I explicitly stated that science was carried out in the ancient world before Christianity, and in Muslim countries before 1277. Science and religion are completely unrelated, and, in fact, contradictory; I suggest you watch my video entitled "Science vs. Religion".
diagoras54 1 year ago
@diagoras54
Science and religion are not totally unrelated actually! Science needs the proper philosophical soil before it can flourish freely! The Catholic Church provided this - and freed science from the restraints of previous false philosophical assertions! If you don't know this - then you can't call yourself a historian!
amaqula 1 year ago
@amaqula What "philosophical soil" did the Catholic Church provide? "Jesus died for your sins, and if you don't believe that you're going to hell"? The fundamental problem with religion, and the reason it conflicts with science, is that religion is based on the principle of "god did it". You can't believe both that god is responsible, and that there are purely natural explanations, so the Church set out to prevent advocates of science from presenting any idea which could contradict dogma.
diagoras54 1 year ago
@diagoras54
The Catholic Church doesn't teach anything quite so simplistic - so brush up on your knowledge please! Christianity and science never conflict - they have the same source - God Himself! They completment each other - history proves this. There are natural explanations - but the sourse of nature and its laws is God Himself. Any idea that contradicts Catholic dogma is false - and a wast of time. No wonder so many dead end atheist scienctific ventures then eh?
amaqula 1 year ago
@amaqula Very simply and clearly, I want an explanation of what philosophical concepts that are essential for science that came from the Catholic Church, and only the Catholic Church. Every philosophical argument I've heard with regards to any branch of Christianity relates to transubstantiation, the Trinity, or some other theological construct, nothing about the natural world.
diagoras54 1 year ago
@diagoras54
The Condemnations of 1277 gives an idea of those Christian philosophical truths that underpinned the advancement of science! The banned articles included notions that the world was eternal there never was a first human that God does not know things other than Himself etc! When the Christian viewpoint was strenghtened science proceeded! The Christian view point atheist scientists tend to resist! Hmmm.....not as clever as they like to think!
TIME FOR A CATHOLIC STATE
amaqula 1 year ago
@amaqula Banning ideas is not a philosophical argument. "This guy's beliefs are wrong" is not a philosophical position, nor is it dependent upon Catholicism; anyone could have come to the same conclusions. I want a solid philosophical argument, which would be something like "Empiricism is fundamental for the pursuit of science". If you can't provide that, then I have no further interest in anything you have to say.
diagoras54 1 year ago
@amaqula How could they possibly be in concert? One relies on a purely natural explanation, and one relies on a purely supernatural explanation. Science seeks to find a solution without having to fall back on the supernatural, whereas religion's answer is "god did it". Why bother assuming god was acting through natural mechanisms? It's adding an extra step and contradicts Occam's Razor in the same way as attributing a car accident to someone wishing ill fortune upon you.
diagoras54 1 year ago
@diagoras54
Behind the workings of the natural world - there is the supernatural world! Religion certainly says God did it - and we seek to know how He did it - what laws did He enact and how did He order creation! These make the best scientists! Becasuse they know there is a cohesive comprehensive reasoning behind everything - that joins everything together. Atheists scientists don't have this notion.
amaqula 1 year ago
@amaqula The far simpler explanation is that the road was icy, so why add an extra force for which there's no evidence?
What "dead end atheist scientific ventures"? Science is carried out by theists, agnostics and atheists alike, and thrives on freedom of thought, not a specific ideology. By dictating what's true and what isn't, you can do nothing but hinder science.
diagoras54 1 year ago
@diagoras54
No - science does not thrive on freedom - as you people like to think - and it shows in your underwhelming scientific results - science thrives on TRUTH Science is truth. Science fiction thrives on novelty. But its no use in the real world I'm afraid! By dictating the philosophical ideas which are true - the Church guides science in the right direction! And always will!
CATHOLIC STATE FOREVER
amaqula 1 year ago
@amaqula All of your latest posts have indicated that you are nothing but an irrational idealogue. How can you think that freedom would be detrimental to the pursuit of ideas? For that matter, how could you think that restricting any freedom would be a good thing? You've demonstrated the fundamental flaw with believing that science and religion benefit each other: if truth can be dictated, then why do we need to bother with science? Why doesn't the Church just tell us what's true?
diagoras54 1 year ago
@amaqula If science will prove that your religion is correct then you should have no fears of an objective assessment of reality. This brings us back to the fundamental issue with Galileo: the Church dictated that his ideas, which were absolutely 100% correct, were wrong. THE DICTUM WAS WRONG. THE CHURCH WAS WRONG. By dictating "truth", they imposed a false understanding of the world.
diagoras54 1 year ago
@diagoras54
The Church did not say Galilleo was wrong - but that he tried to impugn the Holy Bible in his thesis - and that he had published his findings without full proof! The Church has nothing to fear from scientific truth - and never had! All truth whether material or spiritual comes from God - and He does not contradict Himself! You can rest assured of that! Atheists do not own the material world - they are merely investigating God's Creation!
amaqula 1 year ago
@amaqula Yes, they did say he was wrong: Cardinal Bellarmine ordered him not to discuss, or even to believe, that the Earth moves and isn't the centre of the universe. You're lying. His ideas contradicted the Bible, and they were banned, which could only lead to the suppression of the truth. Was god lying when he told the authors of the Bible that the universe is geocentric, or when he told the Inquisition to ban Galileo's findings?
diagoras54 1 year ago
@amaqula If the pope is divinely inspired and has access to absolute truth, why would he impose an incorrect notion? The only reason Galileo's ideas survived was because they spread in Protestant countries, despite the best efforts of the Catholics; ironically, the Catholic Church was supporting the Aristotelian geocentrism it had supposedly banned in 1277.
diagoras54 1 year ago
@diagoras54
The Pope is only infallibe when he speaks of matters of faith and moral - ex cathedra! Meaning certain conditions must be met! And Galilleo was imprisioned because he implied his findings proved the Holy Bible incorrect - when in fact said quotation is to be taken figuratively not literally!
amaqula 1 year ago
@amaqula It doesn't matter how you interpret the passage, the fact is that an idea which is true was declared illegal, and if that had stood we would have no more understanding of space than Aristotle. Science can't advance when people aren't allowed to discuss their thoughts, especially when those thoughts are true.
diagoras54 1 year ago
@amaqula If you claim that the Vatican makes mistakes because of the influence of "fallen" humans, then how do we know when the orders come from god, and when they come from humans? Are the true ideas from god, and the false ones from humans, and if that's so, how do we know which ideas are true? Do we use science, and if we do, why bother with dicta? Science reveals the truth, and making a pronouncement that it's true is redundant.
diagoras54 1 year ago
@diagoras54
Sometimes it takes time to decipher which is which - but we get there in the end! God only propounds truth - but humans are driven by all kinds of desires etc Matters philosophical are outside the scope of science - but when science is brought to bear where it can - it always supports the teachings of the Church! For instance - science tells us that the fusion of sperm and egg produces an other human being with its unique and full quota of human DNA!
amaqula 1 year ago
@amaqula HOW DO WE GET THERE IN THE END? If the church is going to tell us what's true, and the Church is wrong, then how do we find the truth? If science is banned because it contradicts Catholic dogma but that science is true, how do we get to the truth? Your vagaries have grown tiresome, and you haven't actually answered any of my objections.
diagoras54 1 year ago
@amaqula Science was suppressed under the early Catholic Church, as I said, and only began to spread once the Church loosened its grip, which was the real effect of 1277. After that, however, restrictions were again imposed: I showed an image of a list of books banned by the Church because they were opposed to orthodox doctrine. Science only truly began to expand after the Reformation, because of the lack of an organized attempt to crush anything which even caused questioning of Catholicism.
diagoras54 1 year ago
@diagoras54
Ha ha how you twist the effect of 1277! The only thing that loosed it's grip in 1277 was the false anti-Christian heresies of Aristotle! After that science flourished - and so did Europe! True philosophy feeds true science! They are 2 sides of the one coin!
amaqula 1 year ago
@amaqula How could Aristotle have been anti-Christian when he lived 300 years before Jesus? You really must be an imbecile. For the Church to outlaw any idea, right or wrong, is a hindrance to both philosophy and science; it's up to science to determine what's true, not an authoritarian to dictate it. Science flourished not because of the Church, but because it loosened its grip. Scientists were allowed to pursue their interests freely, and it's that freedom of ideas which feeds knowledge.
diagoras54 1 year ago
@diagoras54
Aristotle was not an anti-Christ!! But that which he said which contradicted Christianity ie truth - was false and misleading scienctists. The Church MUST condemn ideas that are false - that is her job. No wonder atheists don't do science so much - they value what is novel not what is true. Science is the quest for truth - not novelty or freedom. Truth not freedom is what counts! Surely that is basic?!
amaqula 1 year ago
@amaqula I did not, at any time, say that Aristotle was an anti-Christ you moron. It's impossible for him to have been anti-Christian when he lived 300 years before Jesus; he couldn't have tailored his ideas to contradict those of Jesus, and just having a difference of opinion does not make him anti-Christian. In order for him to be anti-Christian he would have to have made a conscious effort to oppose Christianity.
diagoras54 1 year ago
@amaqula Everyone is free to condemn ideas that are false, but no one is allowed to dictate what scientific facts are true and what aren't. Aristotle was wrong on a lot of things, but he was right too, and so were many of the people whose works were banned by the Church just because they contradicted a specific dogma. By banning ideas, the Church was hindering discourse, and they would have silenced it, and any science which contradicted their beliefs, had they had the ability.
diagoras54 1 year ago
@diagoras54
But not everybody is right then! If A says a is right and B says b is right - they cannot both be right! The Church alone can decipher what is philosophically true - or false!! We should only be interested in ideas that are true! There is no point in ideas that are false! The Church tells which are which! Ignore her at your peril! Oh I forgot you already are - too bad for you!
CATHOLIC STATE FOREVER THEN
amaqula 1 year ago
@amaqula No, the Church cannot decipher that, and has frequently been wrong when attempting to do so. Only science can do so, because it's based on objective facts; the answer is the same, regardless of who comes to the conclusion, as demonstrated by scientists coming to the same conclusion independently (see Darwin and Wallace).
diagoras54 1 year ago
@diagoras54
Science needs inspiration to guide it as to where the next new discovery is to be! It must make hypotheses - especially in the mathematics and physics spheres first. Only then can it experiment to deduce whether these hypotheses are true! This is what is lacking in today's philosophically uncertain atheist scientists! They have an erroneous worldview - and the biggest error of all - that because they are atheist they are somehow uniquely gifted scientifically!
amaqula 1 year ago
@amaqula The inspiration comes from people asking questions; if the religion already knows which direction science needs to go, then it must have the knowledge of what needs to be discovered. If that's the case, then why not just tell us the answers? Again, WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF SCIENCE IF RELIGION ALREADY KNOWS EVERYTHING?
diagoras54 1 year ago
@amaqula By telling us which ideas are true and which are false, the Church undoubtedly will be incorrect, especially when basing its decisions on its theology and preconceptions, not facts. You are turning humans into mindless automatons: believe what you're told to believe, and if you think any other way you'll be punished. It's entirely astonishing that you reject the notion of freedom of thought.
diagoras54 1 year ago
@diagoras54
The Church's philosophical pronouncements are always logical! They are based on one tenet of faith - the Christ is God Himself - if this is true then all that derives from it will be true! If this is false then all that derives from it will be false! The greatest scientists of the past 1000+ years when science skyrocketted held it to be true - the present lot hold it to be false. So they are without direction! A true world view is what the Church brings to the science world
amaqula 1 year ago
@amaqula "All that derives from it" does not include science. Science has absolutely nothing to do with whether Jesus is god, and in fact, when I raised that issue as being Catholic philosophy, you dismissed it as irrelevant. You seem to be incapable of maintaining a position; do actually have a point, or are you intentionally annoying me?
diagoras54 1 year ago
@amaqula The Dutch and Germans were ardent supporters and funders of scientific research, giving us such developments as the microscope and telescope at the same time as Galileo was locked up for publishing his very correct findings.
diagoras54 1 year ago
@diagoras54
Yeah Dutch and Germans were ardent supporteres of the scientific research - and they were Catholic too! Gallileo had a spat with the Church for various - but it didn't deter the progress of science! I always think it is dishonest of atheists to focus on Galilleo's run in with the Church - while at the same time ignoring the tremendous impact of the 1277 condemnations! What are you trying to achiev?
CATHOLIC STATE forever
amaqula 1 year ago
@amaqula Germany, home of Lutheranism and the Reformation? The Netherlands, home of the Dutch Reformed Church, and a movement to expel the Catholic Spanish rulers? Johannes Kepler, Isaac Newton, Tycho Brahe, all coincided with the Protestant Reformation. It's not simply that the Church rejected Galileo's ideas, it's that they did so until 1992, and it's in no way dishonest to point out that the Church rejects basic scientific facts. You have a pathetic double standard.
diagoras54 1 year ago
@diagoras54
Yeah diagoras - but at the time of Galileo which you mentioned Germany and Belgiium etc were ALL Catholic. Yes Protestantism did produce many great scientists - but they were still believers in the Incarnation ie that Christ is God Himself! The Church rejected Gallileo because he had not presented any proof of his theory when he published his theory! And it was an atheist that told me that!
amaqula 1 year ago
@amaqula Actually, no. That's just wrong. Germany was at least half, probably 3/4 Protestant, and I have made no mention of Belgium whatsoever. Bringing that up is like me saying "Yeah, but Turkey was Muslim at the time"; it's entirely irrelevant. Are you mentally retarded? How many scientists came from Catholic countries at the time? This isn't a rhetorical question, I want a real answer.
diagoras54 1 year ago
@diagoras54
I told you at the time of Galilleo the Reformation had not begun and all Europe was Catholic! How hard is that to grasp! And religion is higly pertinent - otherwise science would have taken root in any nation in the world - but it only rooted in Christian nations - for good reason!!
amaqula 1 year ago
@amaqula
I mean the Reformation has not properly taken hold - so basically people still had a largely Catholic mindset! My mistake!
amaqula 1 year ago
@amaqula Not properly taken hold? Almost a century had passed between Luther posting his objections and Galileo publishing his findings; that's at least three generations raised entirely within Protestantism, so how could they still have had a "Catholic mindset"? The Thirty Years' War started eight years after Galileo first saw Jupiter's moons over the rejection of Catholicism.
diagoras54 1 year ago
@diagoras54
Still a Protestant holds by the Creed - so we have many things in common!!! We are still Christians!
amaqula 1 year ago
@amaqula You are, without a doubt, the most idiotic person I have ever encoutered. Doubtlessly others have had lower intelligence, but of all the apologists with whom I have held discussions, you are the only one who utterly rejects the basic premises of science. While the others were misguided and led to incorrect conclusions, you abandon the conclusions altogether unless they are dictated to you by your religious leaders.
diagoras54 1 year ago
@diagoras54
My religious leaders reject no science that is morally undertaken - but they do reject false philosophical ideas! False philosophical ideas lead to false world views which lead scientists to scientific dead ends! I don't abandon any scientific conclusions - cos my religious leaders don't dismiss any! They are in the business of philosophy - not science! I think they should get back in the business of science again - atheists have lost the plot!
CATHOLIC STATE FOREVER!!
amaqula 1 year ago
@amaqula BUT HOW DO THEY DIVISE WHETHER THOSE IDEAS ARE FALSE OR NOT? Stop dancing around these issues and answer the question. According to you, religion decides whether science is right, and it knows what's right based on science. The two are mutually incompatible. If your religious leaders aren't in the business of science, then why do they ban ideas, and who are they to decide upon what's true?
diagoras54 1 year ago
@amaqula You have no interest in science, logic, or reality. Your mentality is the greatest threat to modern society: submitting ourselves without question to an authority can only be detrimental, and your views on science would only lead to our demise were they to spread. You are an abomination on humanity. I have no further interest in discussing anything with you if you are unable or unwilling to engage in rational debate.
diagoras54 1 year ago
@diagoras54
Ha ha ha - atheism is the greatest threat to civilisation - on every level! Atheists don't even produce sufficient children to replace themselves never mind to multiply! You are a dead weight around the neck of any society - takers not givers! Useless! Atheist don't do rational debate - cos it exposes all their little absurdities and illogicalities - like just how do you progress and evolve on a 0.8 children per atheist woman! Answer - you don't!
amaqula 1 year ago
@amaqula What does birthrate have to do with ideas? Ideas have value because they spread between people; do you think that people can only have the religion they were born with? It doesn't matter if the people in the secular West all die out, if their ideas are accepted by people in other parts of the world. Ideas spread regardless of race, religion, sex, or country.
diagoras54 1 year ago
@amaqula You voided the right to rational thought the moment you said that ideas must be suppressed and that science doesn't need freedom of thought. You couldn't provide me with a single philosophical idea deriving from Catholicism alone that's necessary for the pursuit of science despite that being your original point.
diagoras54 1 year ago
@amaqula You couldn't, or wouldn't, provide me with a single example of a scientific concept that couldn't have been found without Catholicism, or an "atheist" idea that fell apart without religion. You've done nothing but run around in circles without providing a single fact, ignore my questions, lie, and demonstrate your sheer stupidity. We have no further business.
diagoras54 1 year ago
@amaqula I expect concrete examples and sources for your information; if your next posts lack these, or amount to "You're wrong and you're going to hell and the Catholic Church should be obeyed without question" I will ban you. Don't mistake this for trying to restrict your freedom of speech, although you seem to willing to abandon that and every other freedom altogether; rather, I simply have no further interest in your inanity.
diagoras54 1 year ago
@amaqula No proof? "I looked through my telescope and saw heavenly bodies around Jupiter." What more proof would you like? He didn't have photography so he couldn't take pictures, but all you have to do is look through a cheap pair of binoculars to confirm his theory. And how could banning his ideas possibly be conducive to scientific advancement?
diagoras54 1 year ago
@amaqula If we outlawed every idea for which there wasn't sufficient evidence, we wouldn't have made any progress at all. It isn't up to the Church to decide what's true and what isn't; leave the theory alone and let more evidence be gathered to confirm or refute it.
diagoras54 1 year ago
@diagoras54
It is up to the Church to decide what is true or false - in the area of philosophy faith and morals! That is her Divine mission! And if the Church didn't declare false ideas false - then we would be led in the wrong direction - and never develop. And today we are led by false philosophies - which are taking us to the brink of self-extermination! But we are too proud and too stupid to admit it!
CATHOLIC STATE forever
amaqula 1 year ago
@diagoras54
You don't have to outlaw every idea - but only a fool would disregard the teachings of the Church! We are already seeing the sad death of those nations that do! Silly boos!
amaqula 1 year ago
@amaqula Yes, torture was prevalent in the Middle Ages and Renaissance, but I pointed it out specifically in this context because the ad only demonstrates the good aspects of the Church. History should never be a study of the positive, but of reality, and to try to convince new members that the Catholic Church is, and always has been, benevolent is a lie.
diagoras54 1 year ago
@diagoras54
But you didn't put the information into context did you?! It seems like only the Catholic Church was engaged in torture etc! In fact the Church courts were much more lenient than the secular courts - and many criminals blasphemed so they would be tried by the Church! The Church is not always benevolent -cos she operates in a Fallen world - where life is very tough even on innocent people - especially before the advent of today's luxury!!
CATHOLIC STATE FOREVER!
amaqula 1 year ago
@amaqula The ad didn't put the info into context either, and I never, not once, said that this video is a condemnation of the Catholic Church. Read the video description: it's entirely in regards to Catholics Come Home and their desire to deceive others into joining their church. I'm not arguing about history, I'm arguing that you can't get people to join your organization by only showing them the good sides.
diagoras54 1 year ago
@amaqula And don't try to blame the failings of your Church on the evils of everyone else; Catholics are humans, driven by human desires and human failings, and when they screw up it's because they're no more holy than anyone else.
diagoras54 1 year ago
@diagoras54
Exactly - Catholics are humans dreiven by human desires etc - they are Fallen human beings! At least they admit it and know what they have to do about it - unlike atheists who are allowed indulge themselves in their fallen nature and who deny any thing like good or evil - or at very least haven't got a properly worked out comprehensive theory about this or any aspect of life.
CATHOLIC STATE FOREVER
amaqula 1 year ago
@diagoras54
Oh and I forgot to say - that though Catholics are human and have failing etc etc - the Church though run by humans is Divine in its foundation ie Jesus Christ (God Himself) and is overseen by the Holy Spirit. So it is a joint venture between the Divine and the Human!
CATHOLIC STATE FOREVER!
amaqula 1 year ago
@amaqula Catholicism, Christianity, and religion in general are hinderances on the modern world, and the sooner we abandon them the sooner we can improve our world.
diagoras54 1 year ago
@diagoras54
You won't get rid of the Church actually! We have Christ (God Himself)'s word on that! You will get rid of yourselves though - have you seen your birthrates lately?! Hilarious!!
CATHOLIC STATE FOREVER !
amaqula 1 year ago
" We have Christ (God Himself)'s word on that!"
Since "God Himself" has a pretty poor track record of keeping his word, and even demonstrating that they exist, ALL of your claims about the future outcomes based on their word remain pretty much hollow, just like your religionist cranium. None of your beliefs are based on anything real. Nothing about your religion is real, "except for its obsession with death", as Pat Condell put it. And that's all there is to it, really.
Akatam0t0ma 1 year ago
And if you are so certain that your long-term victory is guaranteed by "God Himself", why do you even bother coming on the Internet and trying to help? All you end up doing is proving the secularists right on how religion poisons ones mind, and why it must be eradicated ASAP for humanity to survive.? Does "God Himself" needs your help? Or do you do it because deep down inside your manure-filled cranium you know that it's all bullshit that will fall apart without morons like you adhering to it?
Akatam0t0ma 1 year ago
@Akatam0t0ma
Ha ha - where did Jesus Christ promise His followers victory?! Nowhere - He said 'if they persecute Me - they will persecute you'! There is NO earthly victory! Christians are promised persecution and hatred! So the fact of their earthly achievements seem like a remarkable piece of icing on a cake! Thank you for that unexpected piece of success Lord - no wonder they are tearing their hair out to deny us it!
CATHOLIC STATE forever!
amaqula 1 year ago
Bwahahahaha! I love it when Christians and Muslims start playing the persecution card when they realize that they have nothing of substance to offer against their intellectual opponents! Is it any wonder why religion losing grounds so rapidly these days?
And besides, who's persecuting you? You are free to believe you bullshit as you see fit, just have the decency not to expect others to take it seriously and pretend that it has anything to do with reality, and then cry "persecution" about it.
Akatam0t0ma 1 year ago
@Akatam0t0
No body's persecuting me - thank God - but Christians were promised persecution - which we got in bucketfulls. However - we were never promised earthly glory prestige and world leadership in the scientific artistic commercial etc worlds - but we also got that in bucketfulls too - more than any other people in history. Watch for a repeat performance!
CATHOLIC STATE FOREVER!!
amaqula 1 year ago
So why did science develop within these very Catholic nations if Catholicism was such a hinderence?! You don't answer that! Why didn't science develop in pagan nations like China - or the US before it became Christian? Strange isn't it! And in 1277 when the Church banned some false heresies of Aristotle that had held science back for centuries did science proceed!
CATHOLIC STATE forever!
amaqula 1 year ago
"So why did science develop within these very Catholic nations"
It didn't, at least not until your evil church lost enough of its political power to be less destructive. And since you mentioned the United States, that was never a Catholic country, and never will be, that kinda makes your claim dishonest. But then, being a dishonest snake in the grass to make sky-daddy's dick hard was never too much of an issue for religious drones, and you are no different.
Akatam0t0ma 1 year ago
@Akatam0t0m
It did actually! Europe had been advancing in leaps and bounds since the 1200's! So how dare you dismiss it! Without my church - you wouldn't be where you are today! The west can't even stand up without the Church - look at its ever declining birhtrates - on a road straight into the jaws of Islam! Just desserts! And you never mentioned 1277?!?
CATHOLIC STATE forever!
amaqula 1 year ago
" Europe had been advancing in leaps and bounds since the 1200's!"
The scientific revolution took place around the 16th century, after the Protestant Reformation, which significantly weakened that evil organization that you are so willing to defend with outright lies without blushing, like the good religionist drone that you are.
"Without my church - you wouldn't be where you are today!"
Correct. We probably would have flying cars and cities on Mars, if it weren't for your church.
Akatam0t0ma 1 year ago
Ha ha now that atheist scientists are all alone without any clerical input at all - they have cancelled their space program - are outwitted by new strains of bacteria and the growing resistance of old strains - have had NO new breakthroughs since the early 1970's (BBC Radio 4) when they took over completely - but still continue to depend on old Christian science! It's not looking good for them! The birth of modern science took place in 1277 - thanks to the interference of the Catholic Church:P
amaqula 1 year ago
"Ha ha now that atheist scientists are all alone without any clerical input at all "
Scientists need a "clerical input" about as much as a slug needs a salt.
Space exploration goes pretty well, and will become even better once the private sector expands its involvement in it. NONE of the problems science faces now can be remedied with religion, and we both know it. So please don't try to insult our intelligence by suggesting that listening to your religion will give us anything but destruction
Akatam0t0ma 1 year ago
" The birth of modern science took place in 1277"
More lies from the mouth of the religionist drone. Science existed centuries before Christianity, as early as Babylon, and the scientific revolution(Which is basically an admission of ignorance on our part) didn't occur until the 16th century. You are completely out of touch with reality. But you're not alone. It's a requirement of religion. You are just one of many billions of brain-dead religious drones who keep the evils of religion alive.
Akatam0t0ma 1 year ago
"The west can't even stand up without the Church - look at its ever declining birhtrates"
Yes it can. Your insane obsession with birthrates is pathetic really, like your religion. It's not about quantity of people, but quality, and because the west has the most secular and rational people, on average it has the most qualitative ones, as you would expect when people embrace reason and ditch evil superstition.
Akatam0t0ma 1 year ago
And since the birth rates among Muslims are also rapidly declining, both in immigrant population in the West, as well as in Muslim countries, you point about Islam is increasingly becoming moot(Though it is still a threat to world peace, regardless). Your ancient superstition is going down the gutter of history as science advances, but so is theirs, so don't feel to bad about it. The west was doing fine before Christianity, and will fare pretty well many years after it, so don't worry.
Akatam0t0ma 1 year ago
Excellent video. Now if we can only get the credulous masses to engage their discriminating intellect (or bullshit meter) maybe they can see that even the people or organization they hold so dear can do evil things. It is a part of the human condition - this handing over of our ability to see bullshit for bullshit and good shit for good shit. It can be as harmless as a fanatical music fan loving everything their favorite artist does - even if it`s just recorded farts. Or blinded parishioners
rictusgate 1 year ago
This is the kinda stuf we should be airing during the superball to raise awareness.
nice vid
ryonalionthunder 1 year ago 2
So true it was used in all the great ancient societies from Rome to Ancient India thousands of years before the JudeoChristian Monotheistic religions.
Another Great Video!
pranays 1 year ago
@pranays
So why couldn't they do anything uselful with it?!
CATHOLIC STATE forever
amaqula 1 year ago
@amaqula They did
Many of the Ancient cultures had everything from Astronomy, chemistry, biology and many other science and used it to create many of the things we still use today like cloths, surgery, antibiotics, farming, plumbing hydraulics, sewage systems, the wheel, wootz steal, bronze, cranes, the arch, water fountains..... The list goes on and on.
All long before your false religion. Maybe you should read a book other than the bible.
pranays 1 year ago 2