IDOAR #6 - Q&A: Example of Altruism

[tthuhta]

Buying a beer to a friend that is broke, is an example of altruism. Why make it too complicated?

[DonMeaker]

@tthuhta Altruism would be buying a beer for someone that was not a friend, and who was willing and able to buy his own beer, and who you would never meet again. Feeling the need to perform altruistic acts for strangers is a psychological problem. What kind of nut needs to do that?

[fab006]

@DonMeaker Correct, but an even greater example, that illustrates the "hierarchy of values" argument would be: Yes, he is your friend, and yes, it would achieve some "value" for you to buy him a beer BUT you are broke yourself, too, and if you're going to buy him a beer, you won't be able to buy anything to eat that day. You would be sacrificing the higher value (your not going hungry that day) to the lower value (your making your friend happy). Plus, a friend who would accept that isn't one ;)

[DonMeaker]

@fab006 you are correct, that is a better example. Thank you.

[MrBipBipp]

What if there were competing forces inside people's brain? There's the reptilian complex, which every reptile and mammal has and there's the limbic system, unique to mammals. The former is responsible for egoistic behavior, dominance, pleasure seeking and pain avoidance. The latter is associated with our concerns about those who we care about (helpless people, children, w/e). I don't have much space to write here, but in my opinion philosophy should start to look at other sciences...

[aangpowns]

altruism is the most wiked thing humans will ever do

[osu]

Can't you guys think? It's the altruism of the Baby!

[HellVomit09]

If an altruistic gang frames people and loses more for their cause than theyll ever gain through continuing with their actions its called compulsive behavior though not altruism.

[jweber03]

I think he was asking for a non-hypothetical example - an event that actually happened. Not a fictitious example. I don't think his question was answered.

[wgaule]

Odd choice for camera position! It makes you look like a child in a sweet shop!

[Aspetta17]

In other words, if the highest reward is to serve the greater good, then the highest self-interest you can have is to have the interests of others in mind ON PAR with your own. "Love neighbor AS THYSELF". The people who accomplish this most successfully are the ones who help others AFTER they have already met their own BASIC needs. To use "selfish" to describe meeting your basic needs, is a MISNOMER. Oxford English Dictionary DEFINES "selfish" as: an EXCESSIVE preoccupation with self-interests.

[Aspetta17]

I just wanted to stress the point about the word "selfish". It HAS a definition, and to try to change the definition is to CREATE AMBIGUITY. The point of TERMINOLOGY is to CREATE CLARITY. The best way to describe "self-interest" IS THE WORD "self-interest", that's why it was coined - TO DISTINGUISH it from "Selfish" (a pejorative term).

"The Selfish Gene" sells books, but it also anthropomorphizes GENES LOL It is to argue that genes are SELF-AWARE and have whims and desires LMAO :D

[Aspetta17]

Are there any debates on this topic that DON'T involve people dying all over the place?:) LOL

Altruism is when acting in the best interests of others is no longer a question of logic OR emotion. It's when helping others becomes WHO YOU ARE. In this way, it is more of a mission than a lifestyle. There is no escaping the psych. reward, but this psych. reward is the most beneficial to the whole of society, and therefore, it is the most rewarding to the individual as well.

[bhweller]

If somebody tells you that Mother Teresa is an egomaniac, RUN.

[bhweller]

Humans that are capable of empathy are capable of altruism. People will feed the children of non-relatives because they can't stand the thought of those children suffering. That is altruism. If you don't think that is altruism then you have a different definition for that word.

[jlgilesrivera]

This is absurd. That is a fallacious example for altruism. Let her own kid starve?? Why do you use that extreme situation to define altruism?

Why not say that a woman sees another woman´s child dying of hunger at her front door, and she goes and opens the fridge and gives milk to that hungry child?

Altruism does not necessarily involve a terrible sacrifice that leads to the death of your children. It means feeling empathy for the suffering of others, and helping them when we can.

[yahooman2009]

Question McKeever: As I was playing BioShock, I happened to stumble upon the banner, which said, "Altruism is the root of all evil." What are the problems of altruism and how is it evil?

[bhweller]

altruism is not evil, but some people have decided to declare war on government social programs and will destroy the english language to do so.

[yahooman2009]

True, according to what I played Bioshock, Andrew Ryan and the rest the people wantd to live in a city of atlantis "Rapture" underwater, so they would be free from any government influence on them because they rejected socialism, communism, nazism and the new deal policies. Andrew Ryan once said that it was so hard to build Rapture anywhere else in the world, but not hard to build it under the sea.

[vidfreak56]

@yahooman2009 but ryan was a nationalist. If you followed the story line, youd see that he attempted many times to implicate nationalist policies (force, murder, privatization, corporatization). Ryan may have wanted to escape the world, but that doesnt mean he wasnt a dicatator. There are many references to a "council". Thats the same as a state in my book. Basically it dictates who gets what, where and when.

[xenoneternal]

All things are done in selfishness. Give any example and I guarantee the root is always egoism.

The convoluted explanation given is just another way of saying absolutely nothing.

Congratulations, you're on your way to becoming a full-blown politician.

[bhweller]

anytime you help someone out of empathy you are being altruistic. some people don't feel empathy, and many cultures deny it as much as possible. Therefore we have this myth that there is no altruism. Where there is empathy, there is altruism.

think about what your ego payoff is for denying altruism.....that is the real egoism.

[MadameGarnet]

that is not an example of altruism, period.

[Orygyn]

Hold on a second, if altruism is helping others without seeking benefit then if you boil it down as far as it can go, surely there's no possible altruistic act? For example, if you hear someone complaining that they don't have enough money to get food and you give them that money, you would have to want to do it. Doing things you want to do benefits you emotionally, or just mentally in general, whether you consciously intend it to or not. Does the definition go that far?

[PaulMcKeever]

Orygyn: you are speaking about "psychological egoism". Rand's "rational egoism" says not "whatever you want to do, it is right for you to do it". Rather, it says: "Even if you feel otherwise, do only the rational actions that will, in fact, most help you to survive and to acquire the material and spiritual values upon which your happiness depend.

[Orygyn]

Ah ok. Thanks, Paul.

[vidfreak56]

@PaulMcKeever but that can be something that helps a person survive. If you give money to another person, you're giving money to a charitable cause, or someone elses need. If you fall on hard times, then you might be able to take advantage of those same charities to further your survival. In this way, it is mutually beneficial for you to give to charity because charity may give to you someday. The conceptualization of "what goes around comes around".

[ThoughtGazeCarlos]

@PaulMcKeever, An altruistic act would be donating blood. I have done it hundreds of times. Every time I do it I feel dizzy and I gain nothing from such act.

[DonMeaker]

@ThoughtGazeCarlos They do give you those cookies and fruit juice boxes. Further, it is beneficial to live in a society where there is a blood bank, so if an accident occurs, you can survive and later heal. Donating blood is merely a small insurance payment for living in such a society.

If you gave blood, and the blood was provided to foreigners, not to you, or your family, that would be altruism.

[ThoughtGazeCarlos]

@DonMeaker Well, I do know my blood was given to a stranger, what follows from this?

[DonMeaker]

@ThoughtGazeCarlos Is there any restriction that, because you gave blood would deny you and your family blood? Again, there is an advantage to you and me in having blood banks and their blood products available. I also have felt the smugness of committing oneself to the blood bank's continuance. Altruism? no, not really, but thanks for giving blood. It benefits me too.

[dharmashapta]

That was great Paul, Thanks

[panthergod]

Thank you for providing more evidence that ayn randians are clearly insane.

the concepts of honor and ethical integrity mean nothing to this philsophy.

[PaulMcKeever]

If you had read any Ayn Rand at all, you would know how incorrect your statement is.

[Leoncharlesblanc]

Tell me, have you even seen/played/read of Bioshock and it's approach to Objectivism? It's a rather honest scenario, that a man creates a city, a civilization where men could become kings through hard work and wry ideals. Only problem? He realizes that he'll lose control to another, and is unwilling to do so, causing the city to fall into bedlam. Now tell me, is that because the one chose to break his own rules, or the constant flaw of trying to make a society out of Rand's 'laws'?

[PaulMcKeever]

I've played Bioshock. There is little explanation in it of how society fell apart, although it seems fairly obvious that plasmids somehow drove everyone mad. Ryan's arch enemy turns out to be, more or less, a communist and a union leader, who organizes the citizenry to violate other individuals' life, liberty and property.

The flaw wasn't Rand's philosophy. It was people who wanted something for nothing, and who were willing to use force to get it.

[Tank94Mage]

@PaulMcKeever that seems stupic somthing for nothing but were willing to do somthing to get it? lol

[dcc543]

Ahahah where do you people come from?  I can tell by your diction, by your very enunciation and intonation that you are a complete fool. You are the worst kind of fool; the kind who actually believes himself wise.

[piximarie3]

It is not selfish, for egsample taking a bullet for someone is a form of Altruism.

Being vegan when you had to give up food you loved, clothes you liked and endure a lifetime of bullying from the truly selfish people who go into denial when you tell them you dont need to eat animals, but they dont want to admit they just don't care.

How does knowing Logic and enduring such a lifestyle make you selfish? xx

[jpbalkenende]

Fine... Is paying taxes for welfare altruism?

[BanjoNaps]

If people on welfare are of no value to you, then yes. If you benefit from keeping them alive then it isn't.

[piximarie3]

You do not do it to make yourself feel good, for egsample I am vegan and I gave up shoes and food I liked through logic. It does not make me feel good to not eat animals it is just logical in my eyes. Also why is making yourself feel good even bad as long as youre not harming someone else? It seems like alot of people who ARE selfish just want to go into denial and tell themself everyone is selfish.

Another egsample of Altrism is taking a bullet for someone ;) xxxx

[jpbalkenende]

@pixmarie3

That's exactly what is is. The anti-altruism BS that Libertarians/Randriods evangelize is a shallow tactic used to rationalize and sugarcoat the fact that they don't give a damn about the less fortunate.

Altruism is a evolutionary remnant it is and has been vital to the health of our species. And goes hand in hand with the humans ability to both emphasize and sympathize.

[BanjoNaps]

I don't think you understand the concept of altruism fully. Helping a murder kill you would be altruism. Sacrifice means giving up value for non value. Emphasizing and sympathizing does not necessarily mean giving up value for non value.

Helping a friend or someone you see as valuable to you is NOT altruism. Giving food to those who cannot support themselves is altruism only IF you don't value them. It is supporting things you hate. Altruism is what is destroying mankind. Open your eyes.

[jpbalkenende]

"Helping a murder kill you would be altruism"

Nope.

You don't have to saccrifice for altruism you must not gain from it except perhaps mentally.

Altruism is not giving up value for non value, sure it can be but that definition makes no sense. Look up the definition of altruism before you go on any further.

[BanjoNaps]

Looked it up. It didn't say anything about gaining anything mentally. It said "no reward or recognition of any kind". Only a blind selfless concern for others.

Helping a murder would certainly be a "selfless concern for others" (the murderer) so my example is justified completely.

Also it is separate from concepts of loyalty or duty. Altruism is defined as total concern for others.

Not gaining anything, eh? That sounds like a NON-value to me. Do you give value to get this nothing? Eh? Eh?

[jpbalkenende]

@Banjo

Even if I except that where does Altruis say you have to saccrafice anything? That's where your entire "saccraficing something of value for non value" comes from. But it doesn't mention saccrifica anywhere. Only inded selfless.

Helping a murderer kill you is not altruism.

It is not doing good without reward because it is not doing good at all. It's a rediculous example anyway because altruism doesn't require saccrafice at all. It certainly doesn't forbid it though.

[jpbalkenende]

*accept *sacrifice

*Foreign and used to spellcheck

[GamblerJustice]

You feel good about the fact that you are not harming animals. If you felt complete and utter suffering and wanted to kill as many animals in cold blood as possible and still chose to be vegan - then that would be doing something for other reasons than to make yourself feel good.

[BobbyFromNJ]

Is it not selfish to make yourself feel good? One who acts in an altruistic way in a classic definition should gain more self worth. Gaining self worth seems self-serving to me.

[cromicus]

Feeling good as a result of an action that doesn't rationally serve you is a deception. If you were hungry and instead of eating food, took a stimulant in order to make the hunger go away, you haven't actually fulfilled the need that the hunger represents, you're just concealing it. When you feel a sense of accomplishment over something that isn't actually productive, you are doing the same thing.

[sdrs85]

you are always pursuing your values...

[PaulMcKeever]

...well, you are always pursuing what your ethical system identifies as a value. The issue is: are they actually values to you, given your nature and the facts of reality. P.S.: I'm working on a video response to your second video...other commitments are delaying it, but it's coming.

[jwoodswce]

The example cited in this vid reminds me of a minor character critized by Charles Dickens in his novel _Hard Times_. This woman ignored the needs of her own children but invested her time and effort in the welfare of far away poor children in Africa.

[qtronman]

Another example: The character and values of Peter Keating. At the beginning of the Foutainhead, he seems like he's acting for himself, but as we find out he's killing himself--i.e., killing his mind.

[Signofthedollar]

Why isn't Objectivism popular? I mean I don't see any candidates running for the U.S. presidency that are Objectivists or appeal to Objectivism. Ron Paul is about the closest to an Objectivist candidate and he has no chance.

[PaulMcKeever]

The transvaluation of all values took a long time...and it had laziness on its side. However, as awareness of Ayn Rand's philosophy continues to increase, the number of people who agree with it is certain to increase.

[XOmniverse]

Example straight from Galt's speech. Well done.

[namitsu1]

you should make the aspect ratio of the video to 16:9

[PaulMcKeever]

That's interesting: actually, I did. I uploaded it that way. And, after it uploaded, it displayed properly in 16:9. It appears that youtube changed the aspect ratio. Great...more things for me to waste my time fixing!

[PaulMcKeever]

Hmmm...stranger yet. I hit the reload button for this page and the video switched back to 16:9 (i.e., un-stretched, widescreen). Anybody have info about this stretching/unstretching?