Re: John MacArthur and Doubting Your Salvation

[playdohjunkie]

Thank you! You said exactly what I was thinking. Andrew seems to be riding in on John's star for attention as someone with discernment but Andrew fails epically. I was just watching a vid where John admits there are errors somewhere in his teachings but he doesn't know where they are but he is always on the look out for them. THAT is humility and a striving to know in excellence the perfect thoughts of God while knowing you may err in the process.

[polopowers1]

Do you agree with John Macarthur saying the blood is not distinct to God.Macarthur claims the blood of Christ is not distinct in atonement.Macarthur believes Christ blood is common to any man and only the death of Christ not distinct blood satisfies .You agree with John on this strong heresy?........And to ask a man to repent ignorant of his education is assumption of the greatest magnitude. You did what you are rebuking

[Super778]

@polopowers1 First off I would say that John and you for that matter a nit picking. Was Christ fully human (a concept that MacArthur cannot seem to grasp)? If he was than there was nothing special about his blood other than it was his. His blood was human blood. You need to understand the language of sacrifice and blood atonement. These are all symbols to show the redemption of humanity. Did blood at all truly do anything to help the Israelites... No it did nothing.

[Super778]

@polopowers1

What is special about the sacrifice is that Christ (a poart of the God head) died for humanity. If anything what has significance is the fact the God (or at least part of him) died on that cross. He was willing to put himself at risk for the sake of humanity. I rebuked him for speaking out without training. I do have training. He was criticizing a church leader with no provocation or reason other than to create division. Read your Paul you can tell he's not fond of trouble makers.

[polopowers1]

.He was like man but not common in blood. He was distinct like the lamb chosen for sacrifice examined for scabs if so it was rejected because it meant bad blood on the inside. God never died on the cross. God cannot die. NOT EVEN A PART OF GOD Jesus died as a man only. God cannot be seperated in Virtue or in person of Father Son and Spirit.If God the Son died all of God is dead .Which isimpossible.Please see CAN GOD DIE polopowers1 .Perpetual virtue cannot be seperated God's glory cannot die

[polopowers1]

Never attacked you just challenged your theology but your the righteous one?

[Super778]

I never said I was the righteous one. I am saying however that I am not going to try and make conjectures based upon logical reasoning. I am going to base my theology wholly and comletely upon the word of God. I am not going to waste my time with ideas or theology's that have no grounding in scripture. All I am trying to say is know your limits, don't try to understand things you weren't meant to comprehend. If the issue of the blood of Christ is so huge than the apostles would have written onit

[HermitintheRain]

The blood of Jesus Christ is indeed important. The book of Hebrews goes into this in chapter 9 (contextually should take in all of 7-10). The purpose of the Levitical system was to serve as a shadow/type of the coming redemption in the Lamb of God. The key to this topic is climaxed in Hebrews 9:14. The importance of Jesus being born of the Holy Spirit and by the seed of the woman should not be missed. When Adam sinned, we who are descendants of Adam, being in Adam as his seed, sinned in Adam.

[HermitintheRain]

As the example given when Paul speaks of the Levites giving tithes to Melchizedek when Abraham gave him gifts after returning to rescue Lot. The Levites being in the bosom of Abraham in his seed gave tithes. When Adam sinned, all descendants of Adam sinned in Adam. By law of redemption as spelled out in the Torah, there needed to be a man qualified to redeem him. As Revelation shows, when they looked for who was worthy to open the seals of the book-only the Lamb of God was found worthy.

[HermitintheRain]

Jesus did indeed have human blood, without which he could not be the rightful redeemer of his people according to the Law.

This is the mystery as Paul revealed in 1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

But what is impossible to me:

Luke 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

[Super778]

I am not in disagreement with what you have written here. I would however stress that what you have written can be stated in many different ways. To you it seems the sin of Adam is passed down seminally or relationally. I would say that Paul makes it clear in Ephesians 1-3 that sin and death are tyrants over all of creation. Therefore the blood of Christ was spilt to liberate us from sin and death, not just to justify us to God. To have one without the other is to miss the point. The Kingdom is

[Super778]

meant to empower the people of God in a way that they had never been empowered before. Atonement theology is NOT just substitutionary atonement, nor is it the MOST important atonement theology. I have a tendency to see atonement in a very liberationist kind of way, am I wrong? Am I wrong to believe that the sacrifice of Christ while meaning to rectify our relationship with God is also meant to liberate us from sin and death? Can you have one without the other? No you cannot and to say you can

[Super778]

is to rob the cross of its power, and to rob us of our hope. Christ's sacrifice was more than a get out of jail free card. It was a act done to liberate us and the world from sin and death. The sacrifice of Christ is far more than we give it credit for. My problem with polopowers1 was his inability to see this fact. While we are God's crowning achievment in creation but we are not his only creation. This type of bible interpretation is very human centered which is something Christ himself tries

[Super778]

to combat within his life. The sacrifice of Christ is meant for creation as a whole not just for humanity (Romans 8:22). substitutionary atonement however is incredibly human centered. This is not to say that it is wrong because it is not, it is truth, but it is not truth in and of itself. It is a part but not the whole like may seem to treat it. What you have written I do appreciate. Thank you. Know that I do believe that the blood if Jesus is important. Just not as polopowers1 argues it.

[polopowers1]

God made Jesus exclusively in the womb of Mary not insemination.Consummation is the means of bad blood passing from one man to another resulting in death .Death passed upon all men for all have sinned .If there is no distinction in Christs blood Adam before the fall could make atonement.?Christ blood must be unique to God it is not HIs death alone But His origin of birth VERY important to doctrine if you make Christs blood common than Christ was born with a nature to sin which He was not.

[Super778]

Thats if you argue Augustine's point that original sin is seminally transferred I do not hold to that opinion. I hold that there is a force called sin and death upon the face of the earth that oppresses this world and subjects humanity to slavery. Read Ephesians 1-3 You will see that sin is given action words like oppress, and reign. When it comes to God dying, I didn't know that we had a perfect understanding of the trinity.

[Super778]

but if you know please enlighten me (thats me mocking you for your arrogance). Your theology MUST be subject to the authority of the scriptures and the spirit, do not be so dogmatic that you become a Pharisee. You have no understanding of trinity because none of us do. All we know is that God is three distinct persons and yet one. Do not act like you know more than is possible or you sin out of pride and arrogance. You and I are human, and we are limited in understanding.

[Super778]

If you think you can figure God out than you obviously don't know the God of scripture. He is bigger than your or mine understanding. By the way in order for Christ to be 100% human he would have to be tempted and capable of sin. Read Hebrews, and the temptation of Christ. The Greek is VERY CLEAR he was truly tempted to sin, and did not. That is what makes Christ such a powerful figure that he felt the temptation of sin and turned away. Seriously know your bible better and your theology less.

[geedup415]

Wait a minute, I've seen that video before. That guy has some nerve. For one, John MacArthur doesn't sound like that.........LOL.

Teo, that doesn't sound like what John would preach. Sounds like he's got personal issues against Pastor MacArthur.

Sorry but that's just plain blasphemy.

[Super778]

Well I'm not sure I would call it blasphemy as much as I would call it divisive. This guy seems to get a real kick out of trying to make men who have devoted their entire lives to God like they are the ones misinterpreting the scriptures. Blaphemy is when someone believes or teaches a theology contrary to Biblical truth. This guy does seem to have some of those issues but what really makes him a danger is his apparant need to divide the church. This is something God will deal with.

[geedup415]

Yeah, you're right. I guess my "blasphemy" comment was out of an utter disagreement with what he was insinuating about Pastor MacArthur.

[Super778]

And I can understand your frustration. Know though that John is human and he does make mistakes. There are many a theology that John holds to that are incredibly unbiblical at least in my opinion. This however does not cause me to call him a false teacher or a heretic. He's human and as a "Christ" follower I love him for being such. Test all things brother never let your guard down, except for Christ. Guard your heart and test all things.

[geedup415]

What would be some examples of John's mistakes on scripture?

My Pastor has told me to be careful also.

I love MacArthur's love for scripture and the time he puts in to studying God's Word.

I know that his view on biblical separation might be one that my Pastor doesn't agree with and the whole divorce/re-marriage thing too.

[Super778]

Well MacArthur is an individual who wrongly understands unity. Paul tells us in Ephesians 2 and 3 that were are all (every Christian) united in Christ. MacArthur weems to mistake uniformity for unity. Christians are united in Christ but not all of Christianity looks the same. This is where John and I would have it out the most. Not to mention his inconsistency on following the law and grace. He just need more work on his sanctification theology. And there is much much more, but I still like him.

[acount99999999999999]

I'm just trying to be objective about this issue, so all of you that enjoyed this video, stay off my back. But Super778, you said over and over that Bain's video is deceptive, and he takes things out of context... but then you failed to put those specific quotes in their proper context or explain HOW his arguments are incorrect (using any means at all, let alone by using an exegetical, Scriptural counter-argument, which is the only concrete way to disprove someone).

[Super778]

Well the purpose of this cideo was not to get into a debate with Bain. So your right I did not combat his video because to combat it is to give it credit. To be honest the fact that anyone would take this guy seriously is laughable. He has no education and he is not an expert in the field (I had to reduce it to that but I must). It's like a person who is a musician arguing with a person who is a rocket scientist. Plus I have better things to do than combat Bain on issues he knows nothing about.

[acount99999999999999]

I understand, but you've already spent over 14 min of video response and many written messages on the issue- that seems to give it quite a bit of "credit." And this has nothing to do with his "education"- it doesn't take an "expert" to see that he isn't butchering Scripture (that much I am sure of, and yes, I do have 4 years of higher Bible education). This means that his use of Scripture (our one and only ultimate authority) demands a serious Scriptural response if there is a disagreement.

[number6z]

just a passing thought .....would it not be a lot better to debate this guy in real lanuage and not in bible-double-talk (Scriptural response)all these so called scripture responsed mean nothing as it can and has been twisted out of reality you may as well quote alice in wonderland its just as valid it it also has no foundation in reality...in my humble opinion a lot of these religious con men need exposed for what they really are CON MEN AND LIARS

[Super778]

If it is Alice and Wonderland talk to you than stop listening. Things that the world sees as authentic like Evolution are far more made up than the Christian Faith. If these men are con men than I must be counted among them, considering the fact that I am training to be a Pastor. As for the Acount individual I don't know where you went to school but I can tell you that this individual Bain is butchering the Psalms. He fabricates and in doing so becomes a divider of the church not a unifier.

[number6z]

the christian faith is not made up? it has been made upby men over the last 1400 years the bible has been edited out of all reality since 380ad just to keep the population in line...if thesew are all men of god why are they not obeying the bible and its dogma...if your going to be a pastor you must have studied the bible will you follow ALL the rules in the bible? ALL of them not just what fits the situation you want it to fit?..if you wish to debate the bible bet ya im good at it

[Super778]

You want to debate something that is public knowledge, look do some reading on something other than your crazy Atheist websites like oh how about a Library. Common dude seriously, you don't know the first thing about scripture, so stop with the attitude and find someone else to irritate.

[number6z]

you assume a lot in thinking i know nothing about scripture...how do you come to this conclusion? i may well know a lot more than you do..thats a very arrogant attitude YOU have which will not take you very far in people managment if as you say your training to be a pastor

[Super778]

Pastorship is the shepharding of the Church not the lost. I am not an evangelist and have no interest in being one. Each believer being filled with the spirit are capable of reading text with the guidance of God you, you however are not. I also highly doubt that you can read Hebrew and Greek as well as an assortment of other texts, ethiopic and coptic as I can. So do I think I know more scripture than you, ummm let me think... yes.

[number6z]

again you assume a lot...you can read foriegn text not a big deal...your arrogance is not very biblical....when you ever get round to reading all those texts from many years ago....read them with an open mind and perhaps your mind will then be open to free thinking

[acount99999999999999]

" would it not be a lot better to debate this guy in real lanuage and not in bible-double-talk (Scriptural response) "

The issue isn't whether or not the Bible is authoritative, since both Super778 and I are Bible believers, who already hold the Bible above other authorities. Since we have that in common and his video was in response to Bain (also a Bible believer who holds the Bible above other authorities), there is nothing wrong with me asking Super778 to support his argument with the Bible.

[number6z]

all 3 of you hold the bible as truth but scriptural debated usually turn into quoteing compititions and as you know mean nothing as it can be adjusted to fit any context you want it to any of us could be right even me :-) but is it not better to debate in plain lanuage and not in riddels?

[Super778]

As a mentor told me once everyone has a Bible verse. In quoting scripture the only thing I prove is that I have scriptue backing my theology not that Bain is wrong. For too many have come to believe that the interpretation of text comes down to opinion to do such a thing and so quoting scripture is well pointless. I'm sry if you disagree with this but the fact is that it is true. God Bless

[acount99999999999999]

That's why learning the stuff in its historical/author/recipient context is so important. When taken in normal meaning and context, I've found the Bible doesn't ever contradict itself. Otherwise don't bother accepting ANYTHING from the Bible (or ANY literature, for that matter); as number6z said, "it can be adjusted to fit any context you want" IF you butcher the original context. "Adjusting" is not reading it for what it says; don't force your pre-bias on it. Let it speak for itself as a whole.

[number6z]

so what your saying as a member of macarthurs cult is...dont listen to the preachings of any other cult....only your cult is the real cult....are you serious? macarthur is only interested in book sales and well filled collection plates hes just another in a long line of religious con men...the flim-flam man is teaching something he cant prove its all about voices in your head....if you told your doctor you had voices in your head he would surely lock you up for your own saftey i would think

[Super778]

I am not a member of the MacArthur Cult, as you put it. Please be inteliigent when comment or I will delete what you write.

[number6z]

have i said anything which isnt true? perhaps i didnt phrase it correctly im only a thick irish paddy im just saying it like i see it....free speech i think its called but do feel free to remove my comments if thats what floats your boat.....i know somtimes the truth hurts and its better to sheild vulernible people from the truth

[Super778]

You said many things that weren't true that is why I said be intelligent. Look throwing smears for the sake of discrediting people is not my idea of free speech. I have a motto when it comes to free speech either have something to say or shut up. Now I'm not speaking to you in this way but that is what I would day to Andrew Bain. John MacArthur is a great Bible teacher and Scholar. I don't agree with him all the time, but he is right (in my opinion) most of the time.

[number6z]

i respect your right for free speech such as in this video  you have made and published i have listened to andrew bain and find him just as obnoxis as macarthur in his attitude to anyone who wont be brain washed by his dogma and hate campaign you are correct about his ability to quote from the bible but i do wonder why you class him as a scholar?he sure is a very clever man in ways but in my opinion as we say in ireland "hes got the gift of the gab" nothing more think outside the box

[lalucid]

Andrew Bain has caused me fear and has upset me. I started feeling hopeless as I watched his videos. Then I remembered that Jesus told us to know a tree by its fruits. Galatians tells us about those fruits, and I don't detect love, patience, gentleness, or any of that in Andrew Bain. For anyone who has been hurt by Bain, please check his fruit.

[Super778]

But this does not mean that the authority of the ordination is tainted or that it is to be disrespected. The Bible clearly shows us in Timothy and Titus that the "laypeople" are to respect and obey their leadership. Now granted MacArthur is not Bain's Pastor but he is still a Pastor in the Universal Body and therefore should be treated with a certain level of repect and admiration. Bain is nothing more than a rebel without a cause, and without any real objections.

[thecrimsonturd]

I understand your frustration with Bain but like I said he has his cause and he believes that his interpretation of scripture is wrong. You don't need to have a degree on the Bible to criticize somebody's interpretation.

My biggest beef with people like Piper, MacArthur, etc is that they do not preach eternal security. They seem to preach that you can lose your salvation if you backslide or something. There are plenty of stories in the bible of saved believers doing all kinds of nasty sins.

[Super778]

Hey I did a quick video for you so look for Answering Questions. It should be linked to this video.

[BrianSweener]

Ezekiel 18:24 For the old testiment reference and 1 John 3:8-10; My point is this.You can lose your salvation by backsliding. Look at them.Saved believers make mistakes yes BUT you must repent from that and come back. That is what saves you. Not doing bad things and its a Card to do whatever you want after your saved. It's not just a prayer it's a relationship. You have to be like christ. It is a Christian walk to end up like Christ. You can be like him because he is in you perfect and spotless.

[Super778]

If you are true in Christ you you most certainly cannot. Because true "Christians" don't backslide. They sin, they make mistakes, but they do NOT fall back into a life of sin and depravity. That was my point. Sure we are judged according to our works and our faith. The two are supposed to complement each other. Read Romans though the issue is far more cloudy than one would think. It seems we have Paul saying we are TOTALLY FREE, and at the sametime that we aren't totally free. Its a crazy read.

[geedup415]

So, would you say that true repentance is a response to true faith? Cause I know many "Christians" that have "backslidden" and know it but have "faith" that "one day" God will restore them. It's crazy because like my Pastor says, a true Christian although sins and falls, he will ALWAYS get right with God and repent therefore re-establishing fellowship with Him. A "backslidden Christian" seems like if that's the case, was never saved to begin with. Would you agree brother?

[Super778]

Well if you are referring to Perseverance of the Saints, than yes that seems to be where I stand. At the same time however God says "I desire mercy not sacrfice" Hosea 6:6, Matthew 9:13, 12:7. God does not keep relationship with us based on what we do or don't do. Is always in relationship, just as he was with Israel. What these friends of yours need to know is that they are restored already, there is nothing that they can to seperate themselves from God because salvation is based in grace.

[geedup415]

Yeah, i see your point. I'll be looking into those verses. Thanks bro. Just a quick question, what's your view on divorce and remarriage? I know there are different views on this.

[Super778]

Well I think it depends upon the reasoning for the divorce. And how quickly your remarried. My opinion is all very conditional so I wold need an example of a situation.

[geedup415]

Whoa, wait a minute, MacArthur definitely believes in Eternal Security. I have his sermons and have his books. No brother, he definitely does believe and preach on Eternal Security maybe not as much as he preaches Salvation but he's doctrinally sound.

[thecrimsonturd]

Come on now dude, what kind of a discussion is this.

This sums up the video:

All I know is MacArthur is right and you're wrong and you need to repent

So far, Bain has been very civil in this discussion and provides Biblical evidence for his assertions to counter MacArthur. What Bain is talking about in his videos seem on par with my baptist preacher. I don't understand why so many people see salvation as something difficult to attain, as if a big gift needs big works.

[Super778]

No I think you need to listen to the video again. My major beef with Bain is that he smears good pastors names with incomplete and inaccurate attacks. I don't agree with MacArthur on everything sure, but I'm not going to smear his name just because I feel he may be a bit hypocritical on some iussues. The matter of the fact is MacArthur is an ORDAINED minister of the church. God has placed him in that position and the church concurs. I don't think Bain can say the same about his credentials.

[thecrimsonturd]

Just because the (imperfect) man is ordained by other (imperfect) men doesn't mean he isn't allowed to be criticized. Bain holds very strongly to his views of salvation by grace through faith, and so Bain is troubled to see pastors straying from that traditional doctrine. They seem to be gravitating toward "lordship salvation" and many Christians view that as an incorrect interpretation of scripture. Bain is not smearing his name but he has a right to his opinion and to criticize him for his.

[Super778]

First off John is all about the "traditional" Protestant view of salvation. He's reformed you don't get much more traditional than that. Second, Bain is "criticizing" a man who holds to the same theological convictions. The problem is that Bain is LOOKING for problems finds an oddly said quote and beats on it. How about a little grace for the Pastor too. I'm training to become a Pastor and personally I don't see what Bain is doing as helpful.

[thecrimsonturd]

I know you don't think that MacArthur's view of salvation is a big deal, but myself and other believers do find it to be a big deal and worthy of discussion.

Eternal security is one of the most amazing things about becoming saved. The comfort of knowing that you're saved forever. It makes you want to do things that glorify God. If we can't agree on this then somebody is tragically wrong about what makes a person saved or not saved.

[jbooks888]

i agree 100% God is so so so wonderful! makes you wanna please him - love him - adore him - and please please please change your crimson name - even darkredturd would be better

[Super778]

John is very much so against a gospel of Works in fact it is his biggest issue with the Catholic Church. But never the less he also understands the works are necessary to "show" thaat faith is truly present. We can't just throw away the whole book of James just because Martin Luther didn't like it. Bain has NEVER had any formal education/ training. So for him to "criticize" Pastor MacArthur puts him at odds with scripture. It is true that John an imperfect man was ordained by imperfect men.

[whitedragonawa]

Why is this McBain guy doing this anyway? He doesnt only trash talk orthodox pastors like Macarthur but he bashes on liberals and other weird apostate preachers too. I dont think McBain even has any beliefs and thinks the bible only can be interpreted by himself. He reminds me of that other church that thinks they are the only true believers.

[ele12957]

It would be nice if you actually explained what Andrew said that was taken out of context. I watched the video in question and I thought Andrew did a good job of pointing out some of John's inconsistencies with scripture. A little evidence would be better than an attack with no proof.

[Super778]

I've read every book that John has ever published and listened to a large portion of his sermons. Andrew has misconstrued and left out many of John's material so he could point a finger. Now there is a reason as to why I did not go into specifics. The first is that it would have been wayyyy to long. Second to go into detail with people like Bain is to validate them and I'm not going to do that either. So it was better to just warn. When Paul warned about False Prophets he didn't go into detail.

[ele12957]

I have heard JM for many years he has some good stuff and in my opinion he has some stuff that just isn't Biblical. I have no problem with talking a warning from the Apostle Paul but you are no Apostle and unless you can substantiate ur claim I have to assume you aren't being truthful or ur bias has clouded ur judgment.

Andrew has backed up each of his claims with scripture, you can make a claim he twists JM but until you can provide some kind of truth I will stick with God's word.

[Super778]

Alright well I did a video to give you some evidence as to what I was warning about. I hope this gives you some ground to base my previous comments.

[ele12957]

Did you do a video or are you going to do a video I couldn't find one yet if you did one?

[Super778]

I already did it but it's not posted yet. Strange. I'll try to get it up within the next 24 hrs. Thanks.

[ele12957]

Ok!

[ele12957]

Still waiting for that video you promised.

[Super778]

I'm having issues with my computer and You Tube. Plus the video is like 40 minutes long. So I'm working on another one that should be a lot shorter. Thanks for your patience.

[ele12957]

Still waiting!

[mbear98]

I think more people are worshiping MacArthur and not God. Sin of pride is dangerous.

[Super778]

I think you mistaken "worship" for admiration or humility. MacArthur is a great bible teacher, thats all. But when someone like Bain slanders his good name with a bunch of errors and misinterpretations (both of scripture and of MacArthur) than he needs to be called out. Its about TRUTH of GOD'S WORD. And thats important enough to argue about.

[reformedshayne]

RAD!! that guy is a tool, and i would be suprised if he is even a christian. he needs a slap in the mouth, and a heavy dose of repentance. then again, so do i.

[FishersofMenCanada]

Praise God brother

[billybobboomerang]

I agree with you. I am not surprised though in the least at the video. It is amazing what people will do to attack someone. There are no monuments built to critics...thanks for the warning...

[RMAC41]

Thanx for speaking truth Super...

[RyanASinclair]

Amen brother, Bain is a complete hypocrite..look at all of his videos, all he wants to do is tear up God's people.