Re: Pornography: Thoughts & Questions

[MardasMan]

Pornography is like WikiLeaks:

It opens the taboo place bed to the masses and makes sex visible. That seems to be extreme and vial, but in fact it helps in learning about pleasure and sexual fantasies without having to have problems about it. Just like Assange: It opens the door to dark rooms, and they want to punish the messenger, not the problem. They want the problems not to be seen. Pornography can help rather than destroy anything. It's part of our society thinking. And it has changed alot.

[FinalJusticeMovement]

And another thing, Pundit.

If you are a "civil rights advocate (for everyone)" as you claim you are, you wouldn't dare have the nerve (even as "smart-mouthed" as you are) to call me a "bigot". Men's rights is VERY important to civil rights, and last I checked, where we stand, YOU don't have many (if any) rights left either.

For the most part, your video makes a lot of sense. Women are NOT objectified in porn as much as women objectify THEMSELVES! We could very well be on the same side!

-FJ

[Larsinger58]

Just so you know, 1 Thess 4v3-8 is about masturbation and utilizing it in a "Christian" context, "not as the nations do" to reduce fornication.

The location of the clitoris in a woman is clearly for masturbation so women can induce their own orgasm, it is not readily stimulated during intercourse. Unfortunately puritanical churches impose their own hang-ups on congregations where the Bible does not.

I think pornography is for adults just as sex is and should be regulated by age.

Thanks!

[AutodidacticPhd]

Eek! much more complicated topic than I can fit into one response. Problems of law making, media influence, attitudes in society... and all before we even get into the problems of sexual inequalities and gender.

I can say that I do not think that pornography should be banned, is intrinsically evil... or that women or youths CAN'T control their sex lives etc... BUT... many of the points raised are far less obvious than the views presented (or presumably those being rebutted).

[AmazinglyCleverName]

Wolf, pornography has nothing to do with the SUBJUGATION of women. In fact, in the some of the most oppressive countries, pornography is either illegal or heavily regulated, amongst other sex related laws. Subjugation is forced obedience...which obviously predates pornography in a big way. Sexism could be said as a result of the beginning of civilization, when the concept of property was beginning to develop further.

[Wolfau5]

Re Amazingly..:

"...In fact, in the some of the most oppressive countries"

Yes, subjugation of women can occur at EITHER EXTREME, forcing women to behave in a "modest" manner, or forcing them to behave in a sexually provocative manner, are both forms of oppression and exploitation.

"which obviously predates pornography in a big way" as I commented, this is a fallacious argument. Besides, erotica and sexual displays are not really recent things.

[AmazinglyCleverName]

You still haven't shown how pornography has anything to do with subjugation. Subjugation is forced obedience. Subjugation can be used to describe war...but not a woman freely agreeing to participate in a pornographic video or photoshoot. It isn't the same.

How is it a fallacious argument? LMFAO.

[AmazinglyCleverName]

Pornography should stay legal. People, if they even exist in a number that is worth mentioning, that become sexist or more sexist from pornography are already impressionable retards that will feel find a reason to be demeaning to women otherwise. Plus there is the whole freedom of expression thing.

[abysspo]

I dunno, porn is there, there are a lot of things available, if you choose, it's up to you if you want to have a man (you) making you ejaculate off while you are trying to stimulate yourself. Did you know that every time you ejaculate, you lose approximately 3-5mg of zinc, thats nearly a third of your RDA.

Zinc is one of the main minerals responsible for testosterone production, therefore less zinc, less testosterone etc.

It is your life, sperm is 'life' too, let it absorb ?

[XiaoGui17]

smpunditz doing imitation of Glenn Beck: too well-done, creepy as fuck. 8|

If a couple breaks up over something as trivial as pornography, either the relationship was weak to begin with, or the people IN the relationship were too immature to be ready for a relationship.

[smpunditz]

"smpunditz doing imitation of Glenn Beck: too well-done, creepy as fuck. 8|"

Really I thought it was a terrible impression.

[XiaoGui17]

The big goofy grin was what got to me. *shudder*

[ThSkBj]

Now you're just responding to how conservative people and christians argue against porn. I'm not against porn. I'm against the violence and the degrading of women in modern porn. It's not about the sex or who's at the top. Not against the language or anything. It's the violence and abuse - and the girl has to pretend that she likes it even if she doesn't. (I'm not saying that NONE of the girls likes it) In most of the porn today there's violence against women.

[XiaoGui17]

There are two reasons porn including "violence against women" exists:

1) Men are buying it

2) Women are making it

Terrible as you may think that is, that's their decision.

[ThSkBj]

The women force men to hit them?

[smpunditz]

Where did Xiao use the word force?

[XiaoGui17]

No, women don't "force" the men to hit them, they allow it. They willingly go back and make said films again and again when they know they're going to get more of the same. They must think it's worth it or they wouldn't do it.

[ThSkBj]

And many admit that they do it because many of them have no education to speak of - so they don't have too many options. They need the money. The same reason why many women are pushed in to prostitution. And the more women who allow it the more common it gets and the easier it becomes to push other women to do the same. Now a days women HAVE to allow this to even stay in that job. And some can't afford to say no.

[smpunditz]

I don't know how much exactly porn pays but I'm sure it pays enough to put someone through college. It's not like porn stars work 9-5 jobs either and even if they are busy there are still online class options.

Street prostitutes may have a poor living but women who work as escorts or in brothels get paid very well. They can afford their way through college and if they tell you otherwise they are most likely lying.

[smpunditz]

And this is all irrelevant anyways. There are plenty of people who lack an education and work dead end jobs. Very few of them get into the porn business.

[Charles0in0charge]

Pornography goes back along ways in western civilization, most notably pointed out by John Berger in the "Ways of Seeing." The primary patriarchal society does perpetuate the objectification of women. So the question is, does porno act as a means of liberation or suppression? Are women granted, truly and equally, the same options in life as men enjoy? If more educational and job opportunities were more accessible, would women see the necessity to turn to porn or prostitution and such?

[smpunditz]

Well I don't have a problem with pornography or prostitution and do not see women who participate in either as victims who lack education (with the possible exception of street prostitutes) and again it's their choice.

I don't think there is any dichotomy here either. I don't think porn really liberates or suppresses anyone as a group.

[Charles0in0charge]

I no spell check on, so please forgive me if i hack up words... I have no quarrel with pornography, but the question still remains. Noam Chomsky gives good insight on the idea of choice, and i never said "take away pornography and give more education." If we expand on current societal structures to incoporate more women, or even elavate women to equals as men, would you see more women turning to porn to make a living? By no means Am I painting women as victums, but there is equality issues there

[smpunditz]

"take away pornography and give more education."

Neither did I.

"would you see more women turning to porn to make a living"

I don't claim to know what the motivation behind such individuals actually are. Actual porn stars get paid pretty well so I would imagine this only applies to amatuars.

[Charles0in0charge]

I know, I just asked the question. But as a porn star gets old, are they not thrown to the side or less desirible? Just stipulation, Most mainstream porn depicts young easy women, so the industry create false imagery of what women are and behave. This is not only seen in the porn industry, but in every media outlet present in america. So again I fall back to the notion you gave before about how society acts in a whole, which in fact this society is most dominated by men.

[smpunditz]

"But as a porn star gets old, are they not thrown to the side or less desirible?"

Yeah although I don't see what it matters.

As far as false imagery is concerned the same thing happens to men in media. It is ashame that a lot of people can't distinguish entertainment from reality.

[ThSkBj]

As i said in my first post -I'm not against porn. I'm against the VIOLENCE in porn. Had there only been violence in a small part of the porn i wouldn't have seen it as a problem. But a BIG portion of porn features violence against women.

[XiaoGui17]

ThSkBj, I'm going to try and explain this in the most straightforward way I possibly can.

I am a Dominatrix, and I can assure you, many people ENJOY, SEEK OUT, and PAY HIGHLY for sexual encounters you consider violent, exploitative, degrading, or objectifying.

It's a matter of taste, and it's not your place to tell other people what they can and cannot do with one another, even if it involves what you consider "violence." Get it?

[Zaimoren]

Porn is a multi million dollar industry. It's images very vivid and strong. It has nothing to do with triggering intellect just a base desire to orgasm. How can this not have an effect? How can images showing certain things if viewed over and over again, not have an effect? I never understood how this can be seen as neutral. People are influenced by what they see.

I think street prostitutes generally make up the majority.

[XiaoGui17]

Even IF it does effect people, that doesn't give the government the right to ban it. It's not the government's place to legislate morality.

[XiaoGui17]

I think many would. Sasha Grey sees porn as a means of self-expression and she enjoys her job. You can tell she really has a passion for what she does.

[RichardRoy2]

No, I've heard plenty of "exotic dancers" and other's in the sex trades claim to get paid quite well. But each of them defines what they're willing to do for the buck. It's easy to say they're "forced" to do the job, but actually plenty wont be "forced" to take lower paying jobs. Yes, some people get trapped. But that's true of many occupations. Not fair to blame the occupation for those questionable "bosses".

[XiaoGui17]

And some, such as Sasha Grey, love their job and enjoy what they do, and yet get given crap about it by moralistic assholes who think they know better than these women what to do with their own bodies.

[Zaimoren]

XiaoGui17 - Exactly, everyone does things in this world because they think it's worth it. I mean people are so two dimensional that we need not look further to any causes or history. A crack addict keeps going back because it's worth it, an abused woman keeps going back because it's worth it. Makes absolutely perfect sense. NOT.

[RichardRoy2]

Well, Zaimoren, why NOT? I think we can get pretty scared of what becomes a sense of pain, or pleasure, to some. "Worth it" may be the most fundental driver of all life.

[XiaoGui17]

I didn't say that the job WAS worth it because they think it's worth it. I said it was THEIR decision, not someone else's, to make. And yes, that does make damn perfect sense.

[Zaimoren]

XiaoGui17 -

"They must think it's worth it or they wouldn't do it." This is what I replied to. People can do things not because they feel there is any worth to it or because it a decision they freely make, there can be as I said before, other causes. It's nonsense because it doesn't even take that into consideration.

[XiaoGui17]

I know what you were replying to, and I see you completely missed the point of my clarification.

Whatever "other causes" there may be, so long as women in pornography aren't being actively raped (which would be illegal, by the way), it's none of your business. What part of that do you not understand.

[Zaimoren]

XiaoGui - Oh it's everyone business because there are people who don't have anyone to speak for them. I understand that you are apathetic and that's fine (not really) but don't tell other people it's not their business and they shouldn't care.

[smpunditz]

Zaimoren-you can "care" all you want. Just don't let your concern get in the way of other people's decisions by making it the law that everyone adheres to your moral convictions and we'll be fine.

[Zaimoren]

smpunditz - I've never been in favor of banning mainstream pornography. I believe in discussion and education. All banning would do is drive porn underground.

[XiaoGui17]

You're absolutely wrong, Zaimoren. These people DO have someone to speak for them: THEMSELVES. I am most certainly NOT apathetic, or I wouldn't be having this discussion with you. I care a great deal: I care about people's rights to make decisions for themselves.

You have the same patronizing attitude as a homophobe trying to save gays from themselves.

[Zaimoren]

XiaoGui17 - Sometimes and even most of the times in certain circumstances, people don't have that voice. Whether it's been silenced or they've not had a chance to find it, makes no difference. It's naive to think that people can stand up for themselves and don't need help from others. Not how the world works. It would be wonderful if everyone did what they wanted and no one was abused, just doesn't happen.

Saving gays from themselves? How? By standing by them and supporting them?

[XiaoGui17]

So you think that female porn stars haven't had a "chance to find" their voice? I didn't know you were a mind-reader. It's awfully patronizing of you to assume that this is why they don't speak out. Could there POSSIBLY be ANY OTHER reason they don't? Are you willing to even acknowledge you may be wrong in classifying them as victims?

Did you not see the qualifier: HOMOPHOBES try to "save gays from themselves." Look carefully at what I'm saying before you reply next time.

[Zaimoren]

Xiao - What world are you living in? Most women will not speak out if their paycheck is at stake. They won't speak out because of shame or addiction. A variety of reasons.

[Zaimoren]

Ah and your point about the homophobes, not washing. Perhaps it's just a thing you like to throw out to get a knee jerk reaction. Homosexuals are who they are by birth, they don't become homosexual because of addictions to drugs or trauma in childhood. Even if it were a choice, it's a choice that doesn't cause harm. And a homosexual is a person, the porn industry is not.

Homosexuality and the porn industry, I wouldn't even compare the two, not in the slightest.

[XiaoGui17]

You assume that women only become porn stars because of addictions to drugs or trauma in childhood. You're not even willing to entertain the possibility that women choose to do so because they like their work. I know several porn stars personally who are not addicts or abuse victims, and I think it's insulting that you assume someone would only go into such a line of work if they were traumatized.

[FinalJusticeMovement]

Talk about mega-low density.

There's no such thing as either a "homophobe" or a homosexual by birth, Zai.

--Heterosexuals who DISAGREE with homosexuality are not AFRAID of homosexuals, per se. They don't run away from them or make a caustic scene. Moreover, they're not afraid to say that they disagree with such atrocity. So how can they be "homophobic"? And if homosexuality wasn't harmful, why does AIDS remain their biggest worry?

--Homosexuals practically INVENTED the porn industry!

--FJ

[smpunditz]

I wish I knew the Greek word for obsessed. We could attach the word homo to it and that would be a more accurate representation of people like you Final Justice.

Clearly you are more obsessed with homosexuality then afraid of it after all. Just look at your youtube channel lol

A word that would fit you even better would be bigot though and you are one in multiple arenas.

[FinalJusticeMovement]

I wish I could find the Swedish word for imbecile, and attach it to your user ID and make IT sound more confused than YOU seem to be, Punditz.

Homosexuals, homosexualists, and homo-supporters are the ones who are "obsessed" with homosexuality. If it had no effect (direct or indirect) to male/female relations or the decimation of male rights, this wouldn't be an issue for me, but it DOES and it IS.

Pay a little closer attention to our videos, and you'll see what FJM is REALLY about.

--FJ

[Zaimoren]

Even though I think it's quite clear that homosexuality is something that happens before birth, who cares. Who cares if we were all born straight and some people choice to be gay,,,who cares. It harms no one, absolutely no one. Now other people can harm them but it in and of itself is harmless.

If aids was a gay disease, why is that non gays get it. Look at stats, highest in african americans, highest in male to male but followed fairly closely by heterosexuals. It's not a gay disease.

[FinalJusticeMovement]

Where did you get the whole "highest-in-African-Americans" statistic?

There are high rates among Africans, but to say that they are THE HIGHEST -- especially when more Europeans engage in homosexuality than African people do -- would suggest that more African people would have died IN DROVES over the course of the past 30 years. A major portion of said population would be decimated more than reasons of murder and imprisonment.

It makes no sense, Zai.

Yours In Truth,

--The Final Justice

[Zaimoren]

Final - I got those stats from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention website.

[FinalJusticeMovement]

If that's the case, then the people responsible for this attack on humanity in the first place have achieved exactly what they wanted.

God bless America... right?

--The Final Justice

[FinalJusticeMovement]

How could you not POSSIBLY compare homosexuality and porn?

Not only is pornography the single-greatest promotion vehicle of homosexuality (most particularly, "lesbianism"), but it's also the main tool that draws homosexuals into "gay" bars, clubs and related institutions.

Why do you think it's called homoSEXUALITY?

They 're celebrating nothing profound. -- just their ability to abandon the opposite sex and engage in salacious acts of sex with members of the same gender.

--The Final Justice

[Zaimoren]

Final -

"Why do you think it's called homoSEXUALITY"

or heteroSEXUALITY maybe too,,huh, huh? What ya think?

What are two straight people celebrating that is so profound. Sticking a penis into a vagina, oh my god it's amazing. I know I hear the sounds of heavenly trumpets when it happens to me.

Dude seriously.

[FinalJusticeMovement]

And what makes the notion of rubbing two vaginas or penises against one another or inserting a penis in a male anus* any better?

Lady... seriously.

What's your hangup against the penis anyway, and why do you seek to attack it?

The male/female dynamic is about MORE than mere sexual gratification. It is about LIFE.

And the more men and women are divided, the more life loses its meaning.

(* The subject IS homosexuality, so the opposite sex factor was not included here.)

--The Final Justice

[XiaoGui17]

They could quit if they really hated their jobs. I'm just sick of you assuming that you know their reasons (you don't.) You're not a mind-reader. You don't know why they do what they do and it's snobbish of you to assume you've got their motivation figured out.

[Zaimoren]

You know a few porn stars and all of them are exactly the same. Wow assume much? You have a few people, who tell you I love this so much and you are like yay. Did you probe the reasons why? Had you known them for quite some time and know of their backgrounds? Did you do any research or is this just because of your own personal biases.

"They could quit if they really hated their jobs" Absolutely true, I mean the economy is flourishing and the job market is wide open to all women.

[XiaoGui17]

I didn't claim to speak for ALL porn stars. But you, in your blanket statements against porn, do.

[RPFS2008]

@Zaimoren

There's been enough unskilled work. Problem is it doesn't pay that well as a result. If an attractive women would rather go into porn and earn better money for less hours then that is her choice.

Really if you're going to bleed your heart dry over anyone it should be unattractive women - the above option isn't really open to them.

PS. You accuse others of being apathetic. I'm curious, what do you do to help the poor downtrodden porn stars?

[Zaimoren]

I have empathy for lots of things, I give a good portion of my paycheck to a woman's shelter. I also support several other charities. Not to mention, the fact that I add my voice to those who are trying to show the harms of porn, not only to those who participate but everyone who is effected by it.

Your comment about unattractive women was so stupid, like the it's an insult not to be accepted into an industry that wishes to profit from degrading you. Wanna try again?

[RPFS2008]

@Zaimoren

So you don't do anything for the female porn stars. (no, youtube comments don't count). I suggest you do not speak down to others in that case.

Also, you make the mistake that all porn "degrades" women.

[Zaimoren]

It says volumes about the state of equality in this country when the option for women to have a job with some real payout is to offer them work in the sex industry.

[Wolfau5]

I share your views on pornography, but find fault with some of your arguments, especially that "because oppression of women was worse in days before porn was available that it therefore is not a significant form of subjugation of women".

[smpunditz]

That's not exactly what I meant.

My point was if pornography had anything to do with the subjugation of women it would only be a byproduct of a pre-existing sexist culture not the cause of it.

Sexism would have to predate it and in that since pornography wouldn't be the major cause of to problem but rather a symptom of it.

[smpunditz]

In other words if there really is a problem of sexism in society (which I believe there is) then getting rid of porn wouldn't solve the problem.

[Wolfau5]

Porn could be both a symptom and a cause, saying that since sexism predates porn, therefore it cannot be a major cause I think is fallacious. I'm in favour of keeping porn legal not because I believe it does no harm (if not treated responsibly by society) but that sexual repression is incredibly damaging to a person and society).

I think a major problem with sexism is alot of women only want the rights and benefits of equality and not accept the associated responsibilities of it...

[Wolfau5]

I think another issue is that we look at womens rights under the filter of "ok, how are men oppressing women these days", rather than looking it as a general issue of improving the lives of women, in which case I think most of the most damaging social pressures actually come from other women.

I think alot could be done to reduce exploitation and harm done to porn stars and models, as well as trying to help improve sex ed, which would likely create healthier social views towards sex.

[smpunditz]

"Porn could be both a symptom and a cause, saying that since sexism predates porn, therefore it cannot be a major cause I think is fallacious."

Well if porn is a MAJOR cause of sexism then shouldn't sexism increase accordingly? Instead it has decreased as porn has become more widely available.

[Wolfau5]

Thats the logical flaw. Other things could be leading to the decrease in sexism over time (getting rid of the previous causes of sexism, such as oppressive marital laws and misconceptions about reproduction, psychology etc), which would lead to an overall trend of it decreasing but with porn still being a factor, even a major one.

Again I do not believe this to be the case.

[smpunditz]

But if sexism has decreased then what evidence is there of a connection?

[AmazinglyCleverName]

How could we even test if pornography causes sexism? Poll those who see pornography? That still would not prove that pornography causes sexism in people.

[Wolfau5]

Re Amazing...:

Not all porn would have the same effect, and it would depend on the emotional state of the viewer what effect it would have.

Feminists will argue that porn makes men view women as "objects", however focusing on a persons physical beauty until you get to know them is common by men and women, and fairly healthy.

As for a test, I can think of no conclusive test that would establish causation, but comparing porn habits of people and looking for social trends could be useful.

[AmazinglyCleverName]

So what is your opinion on pornography, wolf? I want a direct answer, if possible. Those feminists need to realize that they fact that women are portrayed in pornography like that is due to preexisting ideas of women. Also, polling people to see if they are sexist would be quite the task. Even given the anonymity that modern polling often allows, would people admit that they hold their own sex higher than the other?

[Wolfau5]

Simply put, I am in favour of pornography being legal, I believe that viewing it with a healthy mindset is harmless and fairly natural, I believe that banning it would be completely unreasonable, unenforceable, and would lead to sexual repression, a very dangerous thing. However I do believe porn can effect an individual, depending on the type viewed and the amount of consumption.

Much has to be done to improve working conditions for porn stars and models, as well as social views about it.

[Wolfau5]

I would not "poll" individuals, but rather look for certain social signs, such as disputes with female coworkers, complaints, problems with relationships etc. You could also do interviews.

"Sexism" as I view the term isn't always viewing the opposite sex (or even your own) as inferior, but placing unfair restrictions or views on them. Example the stereotype that all Asians are good at math or all blacks are good at sports are compliments, but are still harmful socially.

[AmazinglyCleverName]

@wolfau: Looking for certain social signs, etc don't indicate sexism whatsoever. Everyone is an individual, regardless of gender, so I don't expect disputes with female coworkers, etc to be indicative of sexism. When I was talking about holding one sex as inferior, that was an example.

[AmazinglyCleverName]

@wolfau5 (#1) Porn can affect people? Anything can affect people. It is fairly trivial to even say that something can affect people.

[Wolfau5]

Well the science just simply isn't there to say it always causes effect X in individual type Y. I am simply expressing my belief that it does have several social effects, not all of which would be good.

To treat it as a benign thing I think would be a mistake.

As for "proving" its effects, as with many social or psychological matters, no one study can prove anything, all such experiments have some flaw like that. However a strong correlation in a large study would be significant.

[AmazinglyCleverName]

Since it appears that you do not actually know of any studies that prove or point to pornography being so-and-so, it seems fair to say that we are only speculating at this point.

[Wolfau5]

a "connection" exists in the form that many people who are sexist view alot of porn, especially stuff which degrades or objectifies the woman, however this doesn't mean that porn is a CAUSE, most likely people who are already sexist want to watch such things (correlation, not causation).

At this point it would depend if we're talking at a personal level (effects on an individual) or a social level (effects on society as a whole) as to what harm it causes, such as making an individual more...

[Wolfau5]

sexist (and in what way they are sexist). One could argue that things like Bond films, and the age old "damsel in distress" stories are as harmful for perpetuating women as being sexual objects or submissive in society.

[ejenglin]

I agree with this. Women have been subjugated since the dawn of civilization. In Saudi Arabia where there is zero publically distributed porn, women have about the same rights as cockroaches and even roaches can go about unescorted.

It seems to me that there is link between sexual repression and female subjugation, the more repressed a society is, the less rights women have.

As for as porn breaking up marriages. I imagine religion breaks up just as many marriages.

[TheNakedAtheist]

The objectification of women in the modeling industry is far more widespread then porn. In addition women in modeling are portrayed as being 6' tall 100lbs soaking wet. At least the women in porn have breasts, and hips, and asses, a much more realistic portrayal. I see porn, and it's increasing public acceptance as an indication of the liberation of women rather than their subjugation.

[TheNakedAtheist]

*than

[whoarentyou]

totally agree here.

and concerning the video, it seems to me that since the distribution of porn, it's totally increasing women's rights and their liberation, as society was totally sexist well before the creation of such things.

... then of course there is porn that could be demeaning towards the image of men, it's just not the stuff the typical prude is going to bother thinking of

[cindylauryn]

Great Video smpundit.

[DarkMatter2525]

Men's sexuality is visually based, which is why most porn is geared toward men. Many women respond to men's visual desires by being exhibitionists. There are at least a dozen billion-dollar-industries based on the female desire to be attractive to men. Who's doing the objectifying? I think it's a two-way street. It's like the woman who shows 6" of cleavage and says "What are you staring at?" Anyway, I'm with HonestDiscussioner; I like getting whistled at by a woman once in a while.

[DarkMatter2525]

Nothing wrong with being a sex object...as if I could help it.

[GoblinXXX]

I believe sex is the most wholesome, natural thing that a man and a woman and another woman and a midget can do together. Especially if you remember to lay out a tarp and use plenty of oil.

[tattooskin72]

excellent points all around... great video and happy to see you in the sub box :)

[TruthSurge]

I've got to disagree. Nowhere in the Bible is sex outside of marriage condemned (as far as I know).

Please tell me where you got the idea that "promiscuous" sex is forbidden in the Bible. I have a hunch what you're going to say but I'll just see if I'm right. :) thanks.

[totdos]

It says in the bible if a woman is found not to be a virgin on the night of her wedding then she should be stoned to death on her fathers porch. But nowhere does it say that a man cant be promiscuous, hell it doesn't even say men aren't allowed to commit rape, as long as the girl being raped isn't married and you don't get caught its all good, if you do get caught then you have to marry your victim.

[Swidhelm]

The bible encourages rape in many instances. The story that springs to mind is Lot. Or when God instructs the Hebrews to slaughter the Canaanites but keep the virgins for themselves. They sure wouldn't be having consensual sex with men who just slaughtered their families and friends.

[TruthSurge]

What you are referring to is the story in Deuteronomy which doesn't involve the broad concept of sex outside of marriage but a woman (girl basically) who is being GIVEN to a man who EXPECTS her to be a virgin so he can feel like he's getting new merchandise. Says nothing of the woman who married and then divorced, eg. Yes, virginity was considered desirable for the men but that doesn't directly address the complete absence of any prohibition on sex outside of marriage. more...

[TruthSurge]

and if SOOM (for short) was a no-no, it is conspicuously absent from the sexual taboos explicitly listed in Leviticus and elsewhere. Not only that, I have done a bit of study on the words in question (fornication, pornography, adultery, illicit sex, prostitution, etc.) so maybe this is a good topic for a new vid by me. hmmmm

[smpunditz]

Are you serious?

The bible condemns fornication all the time.

Jesus argues that even lusting for someone is a sin.

Gospel of Matthew 5:27 - 28

I didn't say sex outside of marriage is condemned although adultery is mentioned as being immoral on several ocassions in the bible.

[TruthSurge]

I'm deadly serious. Just as I suspected. I've done a bit of study on the issue of sex in the Bible. The word fornication is not the word that was actually written in Greek. Adultery is not sex outside of marriage as it takes at least ONE of the two participants to me married for adultery to happen.

I've written a little article on this very topic if you want me to email it to ya or if I find time, maybe I'll make a video on it because I'd say 99.9% of the people believe as you do.

[smpunditz]

So where does the sin of lust factor into all of this?

[TruthSurge]

Lust is not a sin. Don't you love how I keep dangling the carrot? HAHAH

Lust in Greek was epithymia which simply means desire, craving, etc. To desire something is not wrong. To desire someone's WIFE if one was single, or single woman if married, or both, is what Jesus was calling adultery. IOW, if you lust after her (desire her) then you have already committed adultery in your heart (betrayed your wife in your own mind). Make sense? I will give one more proof next.

[TruthSurge]

If epithymia meant "drooling after a woman sexually", then what do we make of Luke 22:15?

And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

The Greek word in the actual manuscripts for "desire" here, is..... wait for it....

epithymia - the VERY SAME WORD the KJV translated as LUST in the other passages.

The word written in the actual mss does NOT mean any kind of sin. The prob is KJV reads into it and uses a word THEY think is right.

[smpunditz]

So are you saying that half of the problems Christians have with sex are the result of intentional or unintentional translation errors? Well that would be something.

At any rate it's no skin off my back.

"Don't you love how I keep dangling the carrot? HAHAH"

I don't even know what you mean.

[TruthSurge]

carrot.... meaning, I kept leading you a bit and was going to stop at just saying that lust wasn't a sin and let you reply but I went ahead and typed my thoughts so the carrot idea sort of got left in there.

Yes, translation has something to do with it. Who today really knows what the underlying Greek word for fornication is AND what it meant then? Not many.

As for my comments, I'm just chiming in because I figured you might be interested in what I had discovered.

[HonestDiscussioner]

The idea that porn is by nature degrading to women by its own nature I think is ridiculous. I also find it relatively offensive if the government would try to tell a woman "you're not allowed to be objectified even if you want to be"

I know I wouldn't mind being objectified once in a while.

[TruthSurge]

yep. I wouldn't mind being the SUBJECT of OBJECTivism. heheheh

[HonestDiscussioner]

lol

[GoblinXXX]

Remember, when you make a video on pornography, keep one hand on your hip at all times.

[smpunditz]

In all honesty I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.

[GoblinXXX]

(Male pornstars have to learn to do that, to keep their arm out of the way.)

[DasAmericanAtheist]

Bout time you made it back to the tubes.

[RichardRoy2]

Ok. If they're being objectified in all those other instances, why did you make marriage an exception? I don't see that it's any different. The only difference is that it's long term, contractual, exclusive, prostitution. Why else, if you brake up, must you provide her with the lifestyle to which she's become accustomed? Hmm. Now that I think of it, if I did get a divorce, and had to continue to pay, I'd expect to continue to have conjugal priveleges, with exclusivity comensurate with time. :P

[smpunditz]

I think you missed my point.

Generally speaking women aren't considered being objectified or otherwise victimized simply by BEING married since marriage is of course more then socially acceptable.

I was talking about what I perceived to be society's view not my own.

[RichardRoy2]

Sorry. I think another discussion about prostitution is ringing in my head. Seems to be alot of that subject going on at present.

[Zaimoren]

Richard - You're joking right?

[RichardRoy2]

Zaimoren - About what?

[Zaimoren]

Richard - The whole marriage thing, you made a lil tongue hanging out face at the end to indicate a joke. So was it all a joke or were you just hot and panting after writing all that?

[RichardRoy2]

Zaimoren: Sorry it took so long to respond, was working. Forgot what I wrote and had to go back and read it. I thought it was funny. The last part actually was a joke. I wouldn't be able to continue a relationship in that way afterward. As to marriage being a long term exclusive contract, that part seems to be real. It's just up to the couple to define the particulars. Some couples I've seen seem to be in a sexual contract. But relationship types...well, I don't know if there's a limit to that.

[pe3er]

well in the northern countries like sweden, canada, norway etc its okey for anyone to have sex with a consenting 15 yr old..

as long its consent then i dont see any wrong with it

[anthonzi]

Well a 30 year old woman can carry a 15 year old boys baby without any problems. The same cannot be said about a 15 year old girl.

[greycloud24]

i don't think 15 year old girls should be having kids. maybe the 30 year old guy should use a condom...

[smpunditz]

The goal of sex between two people in our society today is rarely to actually have children.

I doubt if the primary reason why people have different views about statutory rape based on the gender of the older person has anything to do with pregnancy risk.

[AncientAtheist]

Feminism is a "left" position. The negative images of feminism come from those who fly so far to the left that they are off the radar. Those of us who support women's rights but are not extremists are split on this issue.

I have to come down on the side of freedom of speech, even if it could objectively be shown that pornography has some negative effects. The individual is still responsible for what goes on in their brain, regardless of what they have been exposed to.