You have to admire the double speak and double think of people like the KOCHI brothers.
They do things and say things that try to make it LOOK like real American people are doing things when in reality they are PAID PROTESTER that the KOCHI brothers have on their payroll.
Creating things like Citizen United and American For Prosperity SOUNDS like it would be a grass roots Occupy movement kind of thing when in reality it is not. They are doing this to FOOL people!
So let me get this straight the Koch brothers take away's people jobs and rob the poor, then forces people to work for them in the form of campaining for low pay just so they could
@marcomariaz26 Yeah you seem so informed given that you are not aware of basic news reported well over a week ago. But hey...right out Of the liberal Playbook-when you are shown up with facts and/or logic divert attention and/or dodge with juvenile personal attacks. Well done, marcomariaz26!
The banks stole the pensions and that is the real problem. Why are no bankers in prison? They ruined pensions all over the country and got rich. Now the powers that be are once again pitting Americans against each other. Maybe if the federal government did not blow 2 trillion in Iraq and Afghanistan , there might be relief.This all bullshit and the puppet-masters are pulling the strings.
David Kock is vile. He buys politicians so he pay's no taxes and wants to crush the middle class. He's a red neck from anti education Kansas, where people think the world is 3,000 years old.
Do you liberal hypocrites have an issue with the DNC busing in protesters? I didn't think so. It is amazing how the Democrats and the liberals wallow in hypocrisy!
@GraysonBuzz I don't know. Go ahead and ask a Liberal who supposedly buses in protesters. I have no personal knowledge of what you claim, so therefore, logically, no opinion. Unlike Conservatives, I try to be informed before I make up my mind on something. Nice try. Now go soak your head...
I do not know what these guys are protesting ? I am in the 60000 $ income bracket and my taxes came down. If they are against the government then they should renounce social security and Medicare which it seems most of these protesters are on. If they are against the bailouts why are they against financial reform which is trying to prevent such a situation from arising again and protect the consumer. there must be something in the tea thats befuddling them.
This is all pointless bullshit now, since now you lefties are arguing that it is the KKK and the neo Nazis driving the protests, not corporate interests. Just keep on demonizing your intellectual opponents, though.
Guess how many countries that have government run healthcare that actually works? NONE. They are all going bankrupt and moving toward a system similar to ours.
The #1 country for healthcare on Earth is France. They have a fully socialized healthcare system. Not like England which is government run private healthcare. Not like Canada which is single payer government administered, but fully socialized. And they offer the best healthcare of any country. Period. Google it and learn something.
By what do you mean, fully socialized? If the canadian single payer and government administered system isn't "full socialization," then what the hell is?
That WHO ranking was done 10 years ago. The WHO determines its rankings in a way that measures the healthiest against the least healthy in a population, therefore the more homogenous the society, the better the ranking. Also, the United States isn't one country (if you look at our population size), but fifty countries. Huge populations seem to schew results towards the middle in any statistic, and there are no comparably sized countries to compare to the US.
@iamjustjoanne According to wikipedia, French people are on the hook for 23% of their healthcare expenses. The French system combines public and private elements, and doctors and nurses have their own private practices. Your use of the term "fully socialized" begs for a definition.
Have you ever seen the show "Sick Around the World?" It's a PBS documentary about other countries' health care systems.
If you are willing to watch that show, you will get a new understanding of what health care is like around the world. Citizens in other countries simply wouldn't give up their health care systems for one like ours. Taiwan created a health care system, and they simply dismissed the US as a model, because it's inadequate.
Why does it bother liberals so much when other people do what they have been doing since the sixties? Who bussed all of those Vietnam protesters in? Who bussed all those hippies in to protest the Iraq war? Modern day communist like George Soros. I find it comical that we are expected to play by liberal's rules. This is our country, we DO NOT want it to be socialist. That is what this healthcare reform is about. Socialist government control.
@ilsy74 Because they aren't "asking" for help so much as telling the government to use violent coercion to rob others for their own benefit. Sure, I don't blame them, but the government is the source of many healthcare cost increases, thus forcing more and more people to use it as a means of obtaining healthcare.
If we privatise everything to the extreme (health care, schools, army, jails, social security, fire brigade) then forget about all of your freedoms, as they will all hinge on your economic freedom, which in capitalism is NEVER guaranteed.
@ilsy74 First of all, no one is suggesting we privatize the military. Secondly, Not sure what it's like in Australia, but here in America when the free market is allowed to work, with some fair regulation, things get better and more affordable. Cell phones, computers, televisions, xbox. We have people here who are on welfare that have 52" plazma TV sets. That is what the free market does, why not let it work for health care as well. Government doesn't care about health, they want control.
I havent done my research, but I think its fair to assume that the average US citizen spends a HELL of a lot more $ on healthcare (which we in Australia take for granted today) than they do on plasma TV screens, in their lifetime. Also try curing a wounded leg with a Plasma - nuh does not work!
@ilsy74 You're not getting the point. Health care is expensive because of the system that is in place. Insurance companies, mal-practice lawsuits, etc. If it worked like the free market, it would be cheaper and better. Watch John Stossel's special. He does a good job of explaining it. Lasik surgery started at 6000 per eye, it is now around 500 per eye and the technology is better. How is that? Because it is the only aspect of Healthcare outside of the insurance system.
@shaneduffy78 I'll suggest right now that we privatize the military. Free markets aren't even always best because "they are the most efficient" or "they are the most productive." Free markets are good simply because non coerced, voluntary associations should be the iron law of a free society. I don't give a shit about the results. Although it is funny how freedom goes hand in hand with opportunity and success.
If we let people have freedom, they'll lose their freedom? In fact, all freedoms are derived from private property. We could easily privatize the schools, social security, and fire. We've already privatized jails. Health care is a dicier issue, and I think there should be some help for the poorest of the poor, but that help should be asked for and voluntarily contributed.
@tkwelge It makes sense. But I still think the only way e will have an equitable planet is to treat everyone with dignity and respect, and give everyone compassion, even if it means chipping in more, but also holding the politicians to account.
@ilsy74 I think economic equality is a non-goal as it is impossible to achieve without serious perversion of incentives that may lead to a world more equal, but also worse off overall. Also, it's not even necessary to get people food, clothing, shelter, and basic healthcare. Nationally, we could provide many of those services well short of total equality as per worker income in the us = 85 grand a year, but globally we need more development before we can start handing out goodies.
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Jensen is upset that conservatives are NOW orgainizing. Can you say ACORN - Apollo alliance - Tides Foundation - SEIU ?? What a shame the "Community Orgainzer" and his minions are upset that we have awakened. Just this past weekend in St. Louis a BLACK protester was beaten by thugs from SEIU as he tried to protest the healthcare takeover. You want your Government run healthcare - fine ---go do it in Massachusetts (where the current govt. run care is in deep trouble) show us how well it works
The apollo alliance is a coalition of green groups, labor and social justice organizations all working to transition our economy to a clean, sustainable one. What's wrong with creating jobs for american? What do you like america? Your probably anti-american. The problem is FOX NEWS passed the protesters has a SPONTANEOUS grassroots movement that was not organized.. One that they had no part in. When it was clearly not..
They distorted the facts to manipulate the viewers.
You don't think that liberal special interest have a hand in liberal protests? Unions don't use the money they extract from their members to fund politicians and special interest groups? A corporation hands out signs and people pick them up, and you people automatically assume that the people are mindless slaves of some sort of corporate cabal. And fox news is evil for not printing lists of every contributor.And who cares about fox news anyway. Nobody watches it. Not even most conservatives
@CrazyS0 The government could dump money into "creating" all sorts of welfare jobs that don't really add anything to the economy. However, that would be terrible economic policy. Such schemes have never turned poor countries into wealthy ones, and in fact have had the opposite effect. NOw we aren't talking about the protesters, but fox news. I don't really care what fox news does, since they have a right to be biased, and I don't watch them. Except john stossel.
The media are so right wing biased its not funny. Not only is its view on left and right scewed, it does not pretend to be even handed any more. Whenever left issues are championed, all of a sudden they are trouble makers jumping on the underdog cause. Here in Australia it is exactly the same... Shame people buy this.
Right wing biased? How much of the media outside of Fox News, can you really say is "right wing." If you expand the definition of "media" to include all forms of media, I think you will find that the right is represented on the radio, some books, and Fox News, but the rest of the media is highly interventionist.
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There were homemade signs there too, not many, probably because this was a workday lunch hour protest with only 3 days notification...but lets not let facts get in the way of feelings.
I did see protestors holding something at that rally though, that I rarely see at Democratic ones...American flags!
...oh and I see my original comment is -10 and counting...just proves that libs can't stand being exposed with the light of facts and truth.
I'm a free thinking individual. And the AFP is not a corporation in the sense that you are talking. They are a non government, non profit organization. WHy does somebody manufacturing signs amount to astroturf? You're just upset that people disagree wit h you. Admit it already.
Because I have better things to do than find out who funds what. If you're gonna pretend that everybody who disagrees with you can't be legitimate, than you can go on living that delusion.
It doesn't matter. I don't really care if either side does it.. What's wrong with gathering supporters and using the help of larger money interests to bus those people in? You can't pretend that these protests don't reflect an important view of what's going on right now. You want to stick your head in the sand and pretend that this is all smoke and mirrors as obama goes down in flames in the approval numbers. Plus you ignore the fact that proponents of obamacare spent more money.
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GREAT JOB Americans for Prosperity! You are REAL patriots! We need even more busses to fight with greedy democrats. If Acorn can have busses, so can Americas patriots!
Even gatherings of a few thousand people will have small injuries which require medical attention. This one even had a heart attack. Fortunately, the small staff at the government medical office intended to service only the Capital was able to handle it.
AFP advocates pro-tobacco industry positions on issues like cigarette taxes and clean indoor air laws.
Americans for Prosperity opposed a proposed Texas smoking ban in 2005. According to the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, A proposed statewide smoking ban appears all but dead." After being accused of astroturfing for corporate interests, paid "Americans for Prosperity" workers started making hand-made signs for rally participants to gave more of an appearance of an actual grassroots crowd.
You know, this is the first time I've heard of AFP. I opposed the Texas smoking ban, I think tobacco companies should be allowed to advertise their products just like any other business. Hmm maybe this isn't astroturf you speak of, maybe it is people with a cause they believe in and are receiving sponsoring from those that agree.
I think tobacco companies should be allowed to advertise their products just like any other business, too. What I don't appreciate is the dishonesty of groups like AFP pretending that all the signs are home made and not made by paid staff. They are trying to manipulate the media by making it seem like all people at the heath care rallies 1. got there own their own dime and 2. made their own signs. I am not saying all of these people are "astroturf" but Bachmann said it was "spontaneous."
Oh ok thats, understandable. I think stuff like that happens on many major issues though. Just like the pro healthcare reform supporters getting paid and bussed in also. I'm not against reform, I'm just against this 1,990+ page garbage bill.
@jensen1901 WHy shouldn't they be able to represent their views. AFP is not a collection of drones, but individuals who actually believe what they say. Is that so unthinkable? Just because they disagree with you, we're all supposed to believe that this is all a conspiracy and that most of the people at tea party protests are racists or simply paid to be there?
I never said "most of the people at the tea party protests are racist." And I don't doubt most are genuine. However, AFP needs to stop trying to suggest this is all magically "grassroots" when the truth is there are billionaire republicans finding an army of paid AFP buses and staff. This is an orchestrate political hit against health care and Obama masquerading as "grassroots." Just be honest about what it is, that's all I'm saying.
Why do they need to do that? There were billionaires behind anti bush protest too, but I don't disparage those protests as "astroturf." I don't pretend that the movement is moot because of the actions of a few players. And what is sinister about AFP's actions? They don't "hide" anything. They couldn't. They are simply representing their interests while helping people who share their interests do the same thing. You just don't like it because they disagree with you.
I don't know any of the specifics, but I'm not pouring over documents making sure that it doesn't happen either. I don't care if George Soros funds massive campaigns that I disagree with politically. That's his right, and the message is the message. It doesn't matter what form the message comes in, we should be discussing the ideas in the message. I don't have any data on me at the moment about liberal astroturf, but there are several big money interest on the left. But you don't care
If many of the people at the tea party protests are genuine, then it IS a grassroots movement. Regardless of any corporate assistance. Or union or an other special interest for that matter.
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How did tobacco get into this discussion? Throwing in a red herring are you jensen? Obama care sux. Not that any dems actually read the bill "that would take days and two lawyers to understand".
"How did tobacco get into this discussion?" Because the same group (AFP) behind pro-tobacco "protests" is involved with these anti health care reform rallies. AFP is on the side of big business, every time, while using people like YOU to further their agenda.
@jensen1901 The left does the same exact thing all of the time (in reference to organizing and facilitating grass roots movements). It takes money to get a movement going, and that's not a bad thing. People should have to put their money where their mouth is.
What's wrong with opposing a smoking ban. I live in texas and I oppose the very same ban, so they represented my viewpoints. What's wrong with that?
"because it shows the dedication and honesty of the American people" who are getting PAID to work for AFP in order to get these people to the proteset by a BILLIONAIRE who has a VESTED INTEREST in defeating health care reform. I don't doubt that most of the protesters are real people, I just think Bachmann should be honest that AFP helped get them there for free and helped them out by giving them signs that were pre written.
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first, Liberals have been doing this for years. George Soros, Bill Gates anyone?
Second, yes they have an interest in stopping socialist health care reform, and thank God they do. Unlike your side of the isle, we are proud to state our views.
Third, I wish I new they were getting people there for free,I would have volunteered to go.
Be honest, it's not about healthcare reform, its about government control. You want socialism, just admit it. Hollywood will think your cool.
THe dichotomy is not economic freedom vs govt control. Your health industry is already regulated, and it should be (or dont you want there to be regulation on the pills you pop)? Govt regulations to protect you are in place, but we also need to ensure that all those who desperately need medical attention get it, and for that we need it to be affordable by everyone. For this we need govt. regulation and subsidies. You can not have freedom if not every member of society is fully participating.
@ilsy74 Um, I'm pretty sure that the people who sell drugs don't want to kill their customers. Few coke dealers want to sell poisoned coke, for example. Who has an interest in poisoning their customers? Not to mention all of the increased costs and monopolization of healthcare that results from all of this regulation. Regulation begets monopolization. How do you define participation exactly? What is required of people in your view? Can't people just freely associate with eachother?
I agree that the medial fraternity do not always do good. And you are right REGULATION begets Monopolization, SAME as 0 Regulation! But there are people who desperately need to be treated for car accidents or life threatening illnesses and so on. Do you suggest we just let them lie there and die suffering if they do not have the doe? This is not politics, this is about how we see the human being's role on this planet.
I don't see you giving up anything personally to any of these people. How can you demand I give something to somebody else? How can you demand that the government remove others property by force to correct these wrongs? How do two wrongs make a right? If somebody close to you is suffering, help them! If you decide not to, don't demand that I do it for you.
Let's see - the media has been deregulated, and look at how they ram wars and draconian laws through the stage of Television. I am not saying you should give up anything. Your taxes are wasted on so much shit, wake up. Certainly not hospitals and doctors ha ha thats for sure.
That hasn't shown how they are monopolistic. Just because you don't like what free individuals have to say, doesn't mean that regulation is needed. What you're saying is that if we had more draconian laws restricting our freedom, we'd have more freedom? When you say that I should pay taxes to support social agendas, you are robbing me. No argument there.
@tkwelge U missed my point - media do not appear as many individuals, but just 1. What you say less and less is being said because people do not feel it anymore as a truth; that we have to keep mortgaging the present for a future. Rather we can appreciate the material life by being more creative and thankful for what we have. We have been blessed with air, water, trees, animals. To claim rights by any individual is unsustainable.
If you're going to complain that the media represents one point of view, you really are deluded. There are several media options for all points of view out there, you just want everybody to agree with you. That's the only way to make sense of your argument.
Oh my god what a scandal!!! Somebody was handing out signs to capitalize on a political movement that there organization coincidentally supports? Shocking. Why are your panties in such a wad?
How are they forcing people to protest on their behalf? The organizers are paid, but I don't know of any evidence that everyone who shows up to these protests is a paid rat. Also, you can't pretend that there aren't a lot of americans that disagree with obama's agenda. Why is that so unthinkable when you read the polls?
You said in an earlier comment that you believed that most of the tea parties were genuine, so what the hell does any other factor matter. The issue here is whether disagreement is real or being generated by a corporate cabal. If you don't really believe that the AFP is a puppet master pulling most of the tea partiers strings, then you have no argument.Why are we even having this discussion?Did the AFP try to deny it was them when they were questioned? Did they pretend to be simple protesters?
@11111110 I really don't care what AFP says or does. There are plenty of special interests with lots of money on both sides. There is no denying that, and anybody who questions the authenticity of a protest is deluding themselves. I don't agree with most left wing protests, but I'm not going to sit here and call their dissent, "manufactured." Money follows opinion and not the other way around. Nobody has the money to pay off huge crowds of people who otherwise disagree with them.
You are really deluding yourself if you think that everyone at the protests received a check. Of course you'll argue, "But they were bussed in and used manufactured signs!" Well, that's hardly enough to get ME to protest against something that I otherwise wouldn't protest.That still doesn't PROVE that those people are "manufactured dissent." Every time somebody holds a point of view that could theoretically protect a monied interest, you people will be there to shout, "Corporate MOuthpiece!"
To you people, anytime somebody has an opinion that is pro free market, they should be excluded from the conversation, because they MUST be defenders of teh corporashuns.
I never said they got a check. But, you have to admit that you'd be less likely to show up at a protest if you didn't see it advertised of Fox news. You'd be even less likely if you had to provide your own transportation and make your own signs.
And this isn't a theoretical protection. Corporate executives are literally spending millions in order to create protests in order to protect their own interests. There is no other way around it
@11111110 I don't care what private property owners do to protect their private property rights. They are behaving one hundred percent properly in my opinion.
That means that Fox News is doing its job by getting information to the people. That's what news agencies do.If I needed the transportation, of course I would make use of it. What the hell difference does it make?You just seem to think that any private property interest is evil and more evil as the amount of money involved increases.
There is a huge difference between reporting on the protests, and outright promoting them. Does a news agency instruct its viewers to join in on specific political causes, provide them with addresses and contact information, along withe the usual positive spin? Had any other news station done the same for the Bush protests, you'd be up in arms about it
@11111110 Some obviously do, and many did for the Bush protests. There were several news outlets, including small ones that few people watched, that outright promoted and advocated the protests. I don't really care if they do. The message is the message, and somebody only attacks the messenger when they are circling the drain. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of people at any protest aren't mindless zombies, but people who believe in why they are there.
@11111110 I couldn't find that statistic in any one place, but Matt Welch who works with Reason magazine mentioned that Obamacare proponents spent 5 times as much on advertising. Of course you won't trust that source, but I'd like to see some competing information.
Still, its dishonest of AFP to call themselves a grassroots organization when in actuality, they are there on behalf of very wealthy benefactors and oil company executives. Its one thing for hundreds of thousands of people to descend onto the capital, of their own efforts and volition, to craft all their own signs, materials, and to make their own publicity. As was the case with the numerous Bush protests.
@11111110 How is it another thing. A protest is supposed to be about "getting your opinion out there" or some other such nonsense. I often don't protest, because I think that the entire act of protesting is just a PR stunt, and protesting is the opposite of debate,but I don't see a difference as you do. You just want to frame this into the narrative of the 80's flick: a rag tag group of poor kids vs the rich kids who have their rich daddy do all the hard work.Only you care about the difference.
The difference is that the former is more representative of the desperation of the average person. Would these tea party protests be half as substantial if they didn't have the physical support of conservative lobbying groups?
@11111110 I don't know, but it is fair to say that the polls show that plenty of people are on the same side as many of the tea partiers. You can count me in that group, too, and I've never been to a protest of any kind. You probably couldn't pay me to go to a protest, even if I agreed with them.
Oh, so we're back to class warfare. Trust me, there are plenty of lower class people, myself included, who believe in economic freedoms. OH know teh corporashuns got me! Gah!
George Bush had an approval rating in the 20's, with most Americans opposing the Iraq and Afghan wars. Obama has a 50% approval rating with a slight majority of Americans supporting the healthcare bill, and the renewed initiative in Afghanistan.
But then again, I don't know if we are talking about the "don't raise taxes" tea partiers or the "the government will kill grandma" tea partiers. They're hard to define.
@11111110 The AFP has to do a lot of legal shit, including naming donors and amounts to meet requirements to exist. It's not like they can lie about who gives them money, that is all public record. Hardly "lying" in the traditional sense.
If I were to go around claiming I was a millionaire, I'd be a liar. The fact that I'm required to report my income to the IRS every year wouldn't make me any less of one.
Likewise, every time AFP claims to be a "grassroots" organization, they are lying. There's no other way to describe it.
What's wrong with being a part of a foundation. If it wasn't for large corporate supported foundations, we would lose out on a lot of charity. This is simply a foundation that supports a certain point of view. And I support their view, so I don't really see how this is something sinister. You just seem upset that they don't agree with you. Plenty of unions use union money extracted from workers to make signs and bus in protesters. You don't see me talking about restricting unions.
@dantronamus What about all of the union tools? What about all of the people who are bussed in by unions? What about the people who are forced to give up part of their paycheck to politicians that they would never vote for simply because they want to work somewhere that happens to be a closed shop?
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Part 5: Want to know what the govt can do? 1) Create jobs and stop spending frivolously. 2) Open inter-state capability to buy insurance. This would create competitiveness and lower costs
3) Tort reform to discourage frivolous lawsuits.
Those are just 3 things which would dramatically lower costs.
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Part 4: We are the unheard of uninsured. No one is counting families like us. We don't want someone taking care of us. We have always been fine on our own until this economic mess. There are millions of families just like mine out there, caught in the middle-unable to go on public assistance but unable to afford private healthcare. If govt would concentrate on creating jobs instead of the feel-good social issues, we could all get back to work and build up this country!
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Part 3: Now, with this new Pelosicare, as of 2016, if we don't buy healthcare, we can be fined $15,000 plus spend 5 years in jail! GOOD CALL PELOSI! If there are NO JOBS, how can we BUY your health care???? We don't want someone else to have to pay for our care. We're not thriiled with having to apply for state-run care as we've learned how well the state or government runs anything. What choice does my family have?? Tell me how Pelosicare will help us and thousands like us?
Part 2: We are applying for state-run health care, but guess what? Because we have some savings put away to get us through the winter without a job, we aren't eligible for the state plan! We can't afford the $1000/month for health insurance if we want to keep our house, eat, pay our bills, but we are penalized because we have the money to keep our house, eat an pay our bills without total assistance. Total idiocy. THIS IS THE PROBLEM!!!
Part 1: It's so easy for liberals to say we are wrong. The fact is, this plan doesn't help people like me and my family.
My husband lost his engineering job of 17 years Feb. 2009. We live in a very rural area - NO JOBS! He can't even get a job at $9/hr because he's over qualified (according to area employers). Now we have NO income, COBRA benefits have run out. We have access to only 1 health insurance provider in our state. It would cost us $1,000/month to get health insurance!
I have yet to hear of one single govt run program that is run effectively and efficiently. Obama wants weeping changes, yet can anyone show me that someone has gone to other countries to see what works and what doesn't?
Why not fix what is broken, first - The Government Accounting Office estimates that current Medicare/Medicaid overpayments will exceed 69 BILLION DOLLARS !!! Why not FIX WHAT IS BROKEN, before you go on to create yet another bureaucratic nightmare.
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"Progressives" just don't seem to get it. I don't want you making decisions about my health care. I don't trust you. I don't like you. I want you as far away from me and mine as possible.
And I want health insurance CEOs and bureaucrats as far away from my fucking health insurance premiums as possible. They are for MY HEALTH CARE, not to make some fucking greedy assholes obscenely rich. Every single year.
It's time people take their country back from "big government" AND from the boundless power lust and greed of BIG CORPORATE AMERICA who bends us over backwards and pounds it hard until hard-working Americans are left screwed and bleeding to death.
Progressives are not making decisions about your healthcare. An insurance company in Ohio is. And anyway the bill won't go into effect for years long after Obama is gone. It is NOT a government takeover but rather a competing plan. Private insurance is not going away and you can keep your insurance. Get the facts.
How do companies that have to make profits to survive compete with the government that has no such limitations?
I simply don't want the govt. screwing up my health care. Their track record in health care matters is horrendous. Google conditions at Walter Reed Army Hospital or look up the Air Force kid who went into a govt hospital (Travis AFB) to have his gall bladder remove & left that simple procedure minus BOTH legs, due to medical error. Keep your govt. crap, I don't want it.
My god how will they EVER survive!!!!!! Profits at 10 of the countrys largest publicly traded health insurance companies rose 428 percent from 2000 to 2007, while consumers paid more for less coverage. If they make a little less and have to compete, I won't cry and my rates will go down. There will still be insurance companies. You can still keep your plan. The government will not "screw up your health care." You don't have to choose the public option. That's why it's called an OPTION.
Oh of course, the plan is clearly a dickless half measure. But to the democrats this is the foot in the door. The idea that there is no going back to markets in healthcare, and that it is only a matter of time until we have single payer nationalization. But the bill is still an abomination of regulation and extra costs that won't help anybody for half a decade even if you believe his tripe.
They are only mad because they couldnt get 4 lazy potheads liberals out of bed at noon to take a shower and come down. They have been talking about this for a week now, why didnt libs get someone to oppose them? Because there wasn't a welfare check involved.
Oh my !!! We have a "progressive" posting a blatantly derogatory remark involving the developmentally disabled. Whatever happened to inclusion, tolerance and diversity?
@bushputz What is wrong with Koch and other supporters helping eachother? How is this proof of some corporate cabal? You people are so nutty and deluded.
There's also the millions who weren't able to show up too. The polls aren't showing the tea partiers to be a collection of fringe nuts. Unless you think a third to half of america are "in the fringe." It's a good thing that we have you protest critics now that you're guy is in power. You would have never given a protest anywhere near this level of scrutiny if it was an anti bush protest.
You have to admire the double speak and double think of people like the KOCHI brothers.
They do things and say things that try to make it LOOK like real American people are doing things when in reality they are PAID PROTESTER that the KOCHI brothers have on their payroll.
Creating things like Citizen United and American For Prosperity SOUNDS like it would be a grass roots Occupy movement kind of thing when in reality it is not. They are doing this to FOOL people!
lordvelos 3 days ago
So let me get this straight the Koch brothers take away's people jobs and rob the poor, then forces people to work for them in the form of campaining for low pay just so they could
put some food on the table? Now That is Classy!
MalcolmHeardSB 2 weeks ago
nice shining white faces
puertoirish 2 months ago
Brown shirts on busses.
zoomustard 3 months ago
ROACH BROTHERS BUY POLITICIANS ! AMERICA FOR SALE !!!
kn9ioutom 3 months ago
Liberal Fascism is alive and well.
Thankyou for the Video of lies and propaganda Saul Alinsky!
thomaserossi 10 months ago
KOCH BROS...GET A ROPE!!!
HUMANSAREBENEATHME 10 months ago
@marcomariaz26 Yeah you seem so informed given that you are not aware of basic news reported well over a week ago. But hey...right out Of the liberal Playbook-when you are shown up with facts and/or logic divert attention and/or dodge with juvenile personal attacks. Well done, marcomariaz26!
GraysonBuzz 11 months ago
Grass Roots!!!!!!!!
Ladiestreat 11 months ago
The banks stole the pensions and that is the real problem. Why are no bankers in prison? They ruined pensions all over the country and got rich. Now the powers that be are once again pitting Americans against each other. Maybe if the federal government did not blow 2 trillion in Iraq and Afghanistan , there might be relief.This all bullshit and the puppet-masters are pulling the strings.
aBRUSHforCONFUCIUS 11 months ago 6
Fucking buncha tools.
slickjilly 11 months ago
All aboard the sperm bank on wheels.
WOOT WOOT!
TIPPY5117 11 months ago
David Kock is vile. He buys politicians so he pay's no taxes and wants to crush the middle class. He's a red neck from anti education Kansas, where people think the world is 3,000 years old.
kevin120857 11 months ago 2
AFP girl is hot. I really ought to sex the stupid out of her.
beholdcharlemagne 11 months ago
@beholdcharlemagne That would take a mighty big kock.
slickjilly 11 months ago
WoW I don't think I have ever seen 40 bus loads of Koch-Suckers!!
LB3636 11 months ago
My friends in the tea party should ask how come they're never bussed in to protest Wall St. or the corrupt banks.
Trollmaster21 11 months ago 7
@Trollmaster21 TEA PARTY = KOCH
mikemer79 7 months ago
Do you liberal hypocrites have an issue with the DNC busing in protesters? I didn't think so. It is amazing how the Democrats and the liberals wallow in hypocrisy!
GraysonBuzz 11 months ago
@GraysonBuzz GOP = HyperHypocrisy.
marcomariaz26 11 months ago 2
@marcomariaz26 I note you ignored the question. Do the liberals have a problem with the DNC busing in protestors or not? Nice attempt to dodge.
GraysonBuzz 11 months ago
@GraysonBuzz I don't know. Go ahead and ask a Liberal who supposedly buses in protesters. I have no personal knowledge of what you claim, so therefore, logically, no opinion. Unlike Conservatives, I try to be informed before I make up my mind on something. Nice try. Now go soak your head...
marcomariaz26 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Remember Remember The Lessons of September
Stop Corrupting our Governments
Zero Hour Protest sitezero.org
eelli2945 1 year ago
I do not know what these guys are protesting ? I am in the 60000 $ income bracket and my taxes came down. If they are against the government then they should renounce social security and Medicare which it seems most of these protesters are on. If they are against the bailouts why are they against financial reform which is trying to prevent such a situation from arising again and protect the consumer. there must be something in the tea thats befuddling them.
rockyarjun 1 year ago 3
This is all pointless bullshit now, since now you lefties are arguing that it is the KKK and the neo Nazis driving the protests, not corporate interests. Just keep on demonizing your intellectual opponents, though.
tkwelge 1 year ago
Guess how many countries that have government run healthcare that actually works? NONE. They are all going bankrupt and moving toward a system similar to ours.
shaneduffy78 1 year ago
The #1 country for healthcare on Earth is France. They have a fully socialized healthcare system. Not like England which is government run private healthcare. Not like Canada which is single payer government administered, but fully socialized. And they offer the best healthcare of any country. Period. Google it and learn something.
iamjustjoanne 1 year ago
By what do you mean, fully socialized? If the canadian single payer and government administered system isn't "full socialization," then what the hell is?
tkwelge 1 year ago
That WHO ranking was done 10 years ago. The WHO determines its rankings in a way that measures the healthiest against the least healthy in a population, therefore the more homogenous the society, the better the ranking. Also, the United States isn't one country (if you look at our population size), but fifty countries. Huge populations seem to schew results towards the middle in any statistic, and there are no comparably sized countries to compare to the US.
tkwelge 1 year ago
@iamjustjoanne According to wikipedia, French people are on the hook for 23% of their healthcare expenses. The French system combines public and private elements, and doctors and nurses have their own private practices. Your use of the term "fully socialized" begs for a definition.
tkwelge 1 year ago
Have you ever seen the show "Sick Around the World?" It's a PBS documentary about other countries' health care systems.
If you are willing to watch that show, you will get a new understanding of what health care is like around the world. Citizens in other countries simply wouldn't give up their health care systems for one like ours. Taiwan created a health care system, and they simply dismissed the US as a model, because it's inadequate.
If you have an open mind, you should watch it.
cornbreadjunkie 1 year ago
Why does it bother liberals so much when other people do what they have been doing since the sixties? Who bussed all of those Vietnam protesters in? Who bussed all those hippies in to protest the Iraq war? Modern day communist like George Soros. I find it comical that we are expected to play by liberal's rules. This is our country, we DO NOT want it to be socialist. That is what this healthcare reform is about. Socialist government control.
shaneduffy78 2 years ago
Why does it other you that people who don't have enough money for treatments ask their public representatives to help them ensure their dignity?
ilsy74 2 years ago 2
@ilsy74 Because they aren't "asking" for help so much as telling the government to use violent coercion to rob others for their own benefit. Sure, I don't blame them, but the government is the source of many healthcare cost increases, thus forcing more and more people to use it as a means of obtaining healthcare.
tkwelge 1 year ago
If we privatise everything to the extreme (health care, schools, army, jails, social security, fire brigade) then forget about all of your freedoms, as they will all hinge on your economic freedom, which in capitalism is NEVER guaranteed.
ilsy74 2 years ago
@ilsy74 First of all, no one is suggesting we privatize the military. Secondly, Not sure what it's like in Australia, but here in America when the free market is allowed to work, with some fair regulation, things get better and more affordable. Cell phones, computers, televisions, xbox. We have people here who are on welfare that have 52" plazma TV sets. That is what the free market does, why not let it work for health care as well. Government doesn't care about health, they want control.
shaneduffy78 2 years ago
I havent done my research, but I think its fair to assume that the average US citizen spends a HELL of a lot more $ on healthcare (which we in Australia take for granted today) than they do on plasma TV screens, in their lifetime. Also try curing a wounded leg with a Plasma - nuh does not work!
ilsy74 2 years ago 2
@ilsy74 You're not getting the point. Health care is expensive because of the system that is in place. Insurance companies, mal-practice lawsuits, etc. If it worked like the free market, it would be cheaper and better. Watch John Stossel's special. He does a good job of explaining it. Lasik surgery started at 6000 per eye, it is now around 500 per eye and the technology is better. How is that? Because it is the only aspect of Healthcare outside of the insurance system.
shaneduffy78 2 years ago
The insurance companies are part of the free market system, as i understand it. May be you don't get something.
ilsy74 2 years ago
Not the way the government regulates them. How are insurance companies in their current form part of the free market system?
tkwelge 1 year ago
@shaneduffy78 I'll suggest right now that we privatize the military. Free markets aren't even always best because "they are the most efficient" or "they are the most productive." Free markets are good simply because non coerced, voluntary associations should be the iron law of a free society. I don't give a shit about the results. Although it is funny how freedom goes hand in hand with opportunity and success.
tkwelge 1 year ago
If we let people have freedom, they'll lose their freedom? In fact, all freedoms are derived from private property. We could easily privatize the schools, social security, and fire. We've already privatized jails. Health care is a dicier issue, and I think there should be some help for the poorest of the poor, but that help should be asked for and voluntarily contributed.
tkwelge 1 year ago
@ilsy74 Except most of the least free countries on earth are not havens of libertarian, free market principles. Usually quite the opposite.
tkwelge 1 year ago
@tkwelge It makes sense. But I still think the only way e will have an equitable planet is to treat everyone with dignity and respect, and give everyone compassion, even if it means chipping in more, but also holding the politicians to account.
ilsy74 1 year ago
@ilsy74 I think economic equality is a non-goal as it is impossible to achieve without serious perversion of incentives that may lead to a world more equal, but also worse off overall. Also, it's not even necessary to get people food, clothing, shelter, and basic healthcare. Nationally, we could provide many of those services well short of total equality as per worker income in the us = 85 grand a year, but globally we need more development before we can start handing out goodies.
tkwelge 1 year ago
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Jensen is upset that conservatives are NOW orgainizing. Can you say ACORN - Apollo alliance - Tides Foundation - SEIU ?? What a shame the "Community Orgainzer" and his minions are upset that we have awakened. Just this past weekend in St. Louis a BLACK protester was beaten by thugs from SEIU as he tried to protest the healthcare takeover. You want your Government run healthcare - fine ---go do it in Massachusetts (where the current govt. run care is in deep trouble) show us how well it works
scorpion6653 2 years ago
The apollo alliance is a coalition of green groups, labor and social justice organizations all working to transition our economy to a clean, sustainable one. What's wrong with creating jobs for american? What do you like america? Your probably anti-american. The problem is FOX NEWS passed the protesters has a SPONTANEOUS grassroots movement that was not organized.. One that they had no part in. When it was clearly not..
They distorted the facts to manipulate the viewers.
CrazyS0 2 years ago 8
You don't think that liberal special interest have a hand in liberal protests? Unions don't use the money they extract from their members to fund politicians and special interest groups? A corporation hands out signs and people pick them up, and you people automatically assume that the people are mindless slaves of some sort of corporate cabal. And fox news is evil for not printing lists of every contributor.And who cares about fox news anyway. Nobody watches it. Not even most conservatives
tkwelge 1 year ago
@CrazyS0 The government could dump money into "creating" all sorts of welfare jobs that don't really add anything to the economy. However, that would be terrible economic policy. Such schemes have never turned poor countries into wealthy ones, and in fact have had the opposite effect. NOw we aren't talking about the protesters, but fox news. I don't really care what fox news does, since they have a right to be biased, and I don't watch them. Except john stossel.
tkwelge 1 year ago
We're not upset, we're laughing at your failure.
doctorpsycho1960 2 years ago
The media are so right wing biased its not funny. Not only is its view on left and right scewed, it does not pretend to be even handed any more. Whenever left issues are championed, all of a sudden they are trouble makers jumping on the underdog cause. Here in Australia it is exactly the same... Shame people buy this.
ilsy74 2 years ago 2
Right wing biased? How much of the media outside of Fox News, can you really say is "right wing." If you expand the definition of "media" to include all forms of media, I think you will find that the right is represented on the radio, some books, and Fox News, but the rest of the media is highly interventionist.
tkwelge 1 year ago
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Why are Libs all upset? The conservatives and Republicans are just borrowing a page from the Democrat playbook. Turnabout is fair play.
LHZZ12MM 2 years ago
except we make our own signs and don't have them pre-made by a lobbying PAC.
jensen1901 2 years ago 8
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There were homemade signs there too, not many, probably because this was a workday lunch hour protest with only 3 days notification...but lets not let facts get in the way of feelings.
I did see protestors holding something at that rally though, that I rarely see at Democratic ones...American flags!
...oh and I see my original comment is -10 and counting...just proves that libs can't stand being exposed with the light of facts and truth.
LHZZ12MM 2 years ago
I'm sure several tea party protesters made their own signs. What the hell is the difference anyway?
tkwelge 1 year ago
Big difference. Are you a slave to corporate America's interests? Are you a pawn in their game? Or are you a free thinking individual?
jensen1901 1 year ago
I'm a free thinking individual. And the AFP is not a corporation in the sense that you are talking. They are a non government, non profit organization. WHy does somebody manufacturing signs amount to astroturf? You're just upset that people disagree wit h you. Admit it already.
tkwelge 1 year ago
Guess you couldn't find names and dates.
jensen1901 1 year ago
Because I have better things to do than find out who funds what. If you're gonna pretend that everybody who disagrees with you can't be legitimate, than you can go on living that delusion.
tkwelge 1 year ago
It doesn't matter. I don't really care if either side does it.. What's wrong with gathering supporters and using the help of larger money interests to bus those people in? You can't pretend that these protests don't reflect an important view of what's going on right now. You want to stick your head in the sand and pretend that this is all smoke and mirrors as obama goes down in flames in the approval numbers. Plus you ignore the fact that proponents of obamacare spent more money.
tkwelge 1 year ago
So what if you did? If you believe what you are saying, who cares who made the signs?
tkwelge 1 year ago
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Organized terrorism. These people should all be lined up and shot. That would be justice
burntonion05 2 years ago
Burntonion05
Don't worry the 2012 paranoia will take care of it. No need to get your hands dirty.
CrazyS0 2 years ago
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GREAT JOB Americans for Prosperity! You are REAL patriots! We need even more busses to fight with greedy democrats. If Acorn can have busses, so can Americas patriots!
BlueSkies360 2 years ago
FUCK AFP!
EmeterioBetances 2 years ago 8
LOL, I wouldn't be surprise the next think progress video is on how different states bus people to DC to "represent" them.
zzx2847 2 years ago
Even gatherings of a few thousand people will have small injuries which require medical attention. This one even had a heart attack. Fortunately, the small staff at the government medical office intended to service only the Capital was able to handle it.
L8nitedave 2 years ago
AFP advocates pro-tobacco industry positions on issues like cigarette taxes and clean indoor air laws.
Americans for Prosperity opposed a proposed Texas smoking ban in 2005. According to the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, A proposed statewide smoking ban appears all but dead." After being accused of astroturfing for corporate interests, paid "Americans for Prosperity" workers started making hand-made signs for rally participants to gave more of an appearance of an actual grassroots crowd.
jensen1901 2 years ago 3
You know, this is the first time I've heard of AFP. I opposed the Texas smoking ban, I think tobacco companies should be allowed to advertise their products just like any other business. Hmm maybe this isn't astroturf you speak of, maybe it is people with a cause they believe in and are receiving sponsoring from those that agree.
new01 2 years ago
I think tobacco companies should be allowed to advertise their products just like any other business, too. What I don't appreciate is the dishonesty of groups like AFP pretending that all the signs are home made and not made by paid staff. They are trying to manipulate the media by making it seem like all people at the heath care rallies 1. got there own their own dime and 2. made their own signs. I am not saying all of these people are "astroturf" but Bachmann said it was "spontaneous."
jensen1901 2 years ago 2
Oh ok thats, understandable. I think stuff like that happens on many major issues though. Just like the pro healthcare reform supporters getting paid and bussed in also. I'm not against reform, I'm just against this 1,990+ page garbage bill.
new01 2 years ago
@jensen1901 WHy shouldn't they be able to represent their views. AFP is not a collection of drones, but individuals who actually believe what they say. Is that so unthinkable? Just because they disagree with you, we're all supposed to believe that this is all a conspiracy and that most of the people at tea party protests are racists or simply paid to be there?
tkwelge 1 year ago
I never said "most of the people at the tea party protests are racist." And I don't doubt most are genuine. However, AFP needs to stop trying to suggest this is all magically "grassroots" when the truth is there are billionaire republicans finding an army of paid AFP buses and staff. This is an orchestrate political hit against health care and Obama masquerading as "grassroots." Just be honest about what it is, that's all I'm saying.
jensen1901 1 year ago
Why do they need to do that? There were billionaires behind anti bush protest too, but I don't disparage those protests as "astroturf." I don't pretend that the movement is moot because of the actions of a few players. And what is sinister about AFP's actions? They don't "hide" anything. They couldn't. They are simply representing their interests while helping people who share their interests do the same thing. You just don't like it because they disagree with you.
tkwelge 1 year ago
Prove to me where one billionaire democrat actually I went as far as to charter buses for a protest. Be specific. I want names and dates.
jensen1901 1 year ago
I don't know any of the specifics, but I'm not pouring over documents making sure that it doesn't happen either. I don't care if George Soros funds massive campaigns that I disagree with politically. That's his right, and the message is the message. It doesn't matter what form the message comes in, we should be discussing the ideas in the message. I don't have any data on me at the moment about liberal astroturf, but there are several big money interest on the left. But you don't care
tkwelge 1 year ago
If many of the people at the tea party protests are genuine, then it IS a grassroots movement. Regardless of any corporate assistance. Or union or an other special interest for that matter.
tkwelge 1 year ago
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How did tobacco get into this discussion? Throwing in a red herring are you jensen? Obama care sux. Not that any dems actually read the bill "that would take days and two lawyers to understand".
Billyothon 2 years ago
"How did tobacco get into this discussion?" Because the same group (AFP) behind pro-tobacco "protests" is involved with these anti health care reform rallies. AFP is on the side of big business, every time, while using people like YOU to further their agenda.
jensen1901 2 years ago 6
Damn those freedom lovers!
tkwelge 1 year ago
@jensen1901 The left does the same exact thing all of the time (in reference to organizing and facilitating grass roots movements). It takes money to get a movement going, and that's not a bad thing. People should have to put their money where their mouth is.
What's wrong with opposing a smoking ban. I live in texas and I oppose the very same ban, so they represented my viewpoints. What's wrong with that?
tkwelge 1 year ago
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Great community organizing. Obama was a great inspiration.
CRAPCANNONS 2 years ago
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Thank God for the Americans willing to take their time to go and stand up for the future of this country.
And thank God for the people organizing these protest in order to make them more affective.
Thanks for posting these videos, because it shows the dedication and honesty of the American people opposing this socialist take over.
shaneduffy78 2 years ago
"because it shows the dedication and honesty of the American people" who are getting PAID to work for AFP in order to get these people to the proteset by a BILLIONAIRE who has a VESTED INTEREST in defeating health care reform. I don't doubt that most of the protesters are real people, I just think Bachmann should be honest that AFP helped get them there for free and helped them out by giving them signs that were pre written.
jensen1901 2 years ago 2
This comment has received too many negative votes show
first, Liberals have been doing this for years. George Soros, Bill Gates anyone?
Second, yes they have an interest in stopping socialist health care reform, and thank God they do. Unlike your side of the isle, we are proud to state our views.
Third, I wish I new they were getting people there for free,I would have volunteered to go.
Be honest, it's not about healthcare reform, its about government control. You want socialism, just admit it. Hollywood will think your cool.
shaneduffy78 2 years ago
Comment removed
ilsy74 2 years ago
THe dichotomy is not economic freedom vs govt control. Your health industry is already regulated, and it should be (or dont you want there to be regulation on the pills you pop)? Govt regulations to protect you are in place, but we also need to ensure that all those who desperately need medical attention get it, and for that we need it to be affordable by everyone. For this we need govt. regulation and subsidies. You can not have freedom if not every member of society is fully participating.
ilsy74 2 years ago
@ilsy74 Um, I'm pretty sure that the people who sell drugs don't want to kill their customers. Few coke dealers want to sell poisoned coke, for example. Who has an interest in poisoning their customers? Not to mention all of the increased costs and monopolization of healthcare that results from all of this regulation. Regulation begets monopolization. How do you define participation exactly? What is required of people in your view? Can't people just freely associate with eachother?
tkwelge 1 year ago
I agree that the medial fraternity do not always do good. And you are right REGULATION begets Monopolization, SAME as 0 Regulation! But there are people who desperately need to be treated for car accidents or life threatening illnesses and so on. Do you suggest we just let them lie there and die suffering if they do not have the doe? This is not politics, this is about how we see the human being's role on this planet.
ilsy74 1 year ago
Show me where zero regulation begets monopoly.
I don't see you giving up anything personally to any of these people. How can you demand I give something to somebody else? How can you demand that the government remove others property by force to correct these wrongs? How do two wrongs make a right? If somebody close to you is suffering, help them! If you decide not to, don't demand that I do it for you.
tkwelge 1 year ago
Let's see - the media has been deregulated, and look at how they ram wars and draconian laws through the stage of Television. I am not saying you should give up anything. Your taxes are wasted on so much shit, wake up. Certainly not hospitals and doctors ha ha thats for sure.
ilsy74 1 year ago
That hasn't shown how they are monopolistic. Just because you don't like what free individuals have to say, doesn't mean that regulation is needed. What you're saying is that if we had more draconian laws restricting our freedom, we'd have more freedom? When you say that I should pay taxes to support social agendas, you are robbing me. No argument there.
tkwelge 1 year ago
@tkwelge U missed my point - media do not appear as many individuals, but just 1. What you say less and less is being said because people do not feel it anymore as a truth; that we have to keep mortgaging the present for a future. Rather we can appreciate the material life by being more creative and thankful for what we have. We have been blessed with air, water, trees, animals. To claim rights by any individual is unsustainable.
ilsy74 1 year ago
If you're going to complain that the media represents one point of view, you really are deluded. There are several media options for all points of view out there, you just want everybody to agree with you. That's the only way to make sense of your argument.
tkwelge 1 year ago
Oh my god what a scandal!!! Somebody was handing out signs to capitalize on a political movement that there organization coincidentally supports? Shocking. Why are your panties in such a wad?
tkwelge 1 year ago
why are MY "panties in a wad?" Look at YOU. You have left like 20 comments in the past 24 hours.
jensen1901 1 year ago
How are they forcing people to protest on their behalf? The organizers are paid, but I don't know of any evidence that everyone who shows up to these protests is a paid rat. Also, you can't pretend that there aren't a lot of americans that disagree with obama's agenda. Why is that so unthinkable when you read the polls?
tkwelge 1 year ago
You said in an earlier comment that you believed that most of the tea parties were genuine, so what the hell does any other factor matter. The issue here is whether disagreement is real or being generated by a corporate cabal. If you don't really believe that the AFP is a puppet master pulling most of the tea partiers strings, then you have no argument.Why are we even having this discussion?Did the AFP try to deny it was them when they were questioned? Did they pretend to be simple protesters?
tkwelge 1 year ago
@tkwelge
Well, AFP claims to be a "grassroots" organization all the time.
11111110 1 year ago
@11111110 I really don't care what AFP says or does. There are plenty of special interests with lots of money on both sides. There is no denying that, and anybody who questions the authenticity of a protest is deluding themselves. I don't agree with most left wing protests, but I'm not going to sit here and call their dissent, "manufactured." Money follows opinion and not the other way around. Nobody has the money to pay off huge crowds of people who otherwise disagree with them.
tkwelge 1 year ago
You are really deluding yourself if you think that everyone at the protests received a check. Of course you'll argue, "But they were bussed in and used manufactured signs!" Well, that's hardly enough to get ME to protest against something that I otherwise wouldn't protest.That still doesn't PROVE that those people are "manufactured dissent." Every time somebody holds a point of view that could theoretically protect a monied interest, you people will be there to shout, "Corporate MOuthpiece!"
tkwelge 1 year ago
To you people, anytime somebody has an opinion that is pro free market, they should be excluded from the conversation, because they MUST be defenders of teh corporashuns.
tkwelge 1 year ago
@tkwelge
I never said they got a check. But, you have to admit that you'd be less likely to show up at a protest if you didn't see it advertised of Fox news. You'd be even less likely if you had to provide your own transportation and make your own signs.
And this isn't a theoretical protection. Corporate executives are literally spending millions in order to create protests in order to protect their own interests. There is no other way around it
11111110 1 year ago
@11111110 I don't care what private property owners do to protect their private property rights. They are behaving one hundred percent properly in my opinion.
That means that Fox News is doing its job by getting information to the people. That's what news agencies do.If I needed the transportation, of course I would make use of it. What the hell difference does it make?You just seem to think that any private property interest is evil and more evil as the amount of money involved increases.
tkwelge 1 year ago
@tkwelge
There is a huge difference between reporting on the protests, and outright promoting them. Does a news agency instruct its viewers to join in on specific political causes, provide them with addresses and contact information, along withe the usual positive spin? Had any other news station done the same for the Bush protests, you'd be up in arms about it
11111110 1 year ago
@11111110 Some obviously do, and many did for the Bush protests. There were several news outlets, including small ones that few people watched, that outright promoted and advocated the protests. I don't really care if they do. The message is the message, and somebody only attacks the messenger when they are circling the drain. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of people at any protest aren't mindless zombies, but people who believe in why they are there.
tkwelge 1 year ago
@11111110 Statistically, proponents of obamacare have spent more money that opponents of obamacare.
tkwelge 1 year ago
@tkwelge
Naturally I'm going to need to see that statistic.
11111110 1 year ago
@11111110 I couldn't find that statistic in any one place, but Matt Welch who works with Reason magazine mentioned that Obamacare proponents spent 5 times as much on advertising. Of course you won't trust that source, but I'd like to see some competing information.
tkwelge 1 year ago
@tkwelge
Its not that I don't trust the source, its just that google isn't bringing it up for me.
11111110 1 year ago
@tkwelge
Still, its dishonest of AFP to call themselves a grassroots organization when in actuality, they are there on behalf of very wealthy benefactors and oil company executives. Its one thing for hundreds of thousands of people to descend onto the capital, of their own efforts and volition, to craft all their own signs, materials, and to make their own publicity. As was the case with the numerous Bush protests.
Its another to have all that provided for you.
11111110 1 year ago
@11111110 How is it another thing. A protest is supposed to be about "getting your opinion out there" or some other such nonsense. I often don't protest, because I think that the entire act of protesting is just a PR stunt, and protesting is the opposite of debate,but I don't see a difference as you do. You just want to frame this into the narrative of the 80's flick: a rag tag group of poor kids vs the rich kids who have their rich daddy do all the hard work.Only you care about the difference.
tkwelge 1 year ago
@tkwelge
The difference is that the former is more representative of the desperation of the average person. Would these tea party protests be half as substantial if they didn't have the physical support of conservative lobbying groups?
11111110 1 year ago
@11111110 I don't know, but it is fair to say that the polls show that plenty of people are on the same side as many of the tea partiers. You can count me in that group, too, and I've never been to a protest of any kind. You probably couldn't pay me to go to a protest, even if I agreed with them.
Oh, so we're back to class warfare. Trust me, there are plenty of lower class people, myself included, who believe in economic freedoms. OH know teh corporashuns got me! Gah!
tkwelge 1 year ago
@tkwelge
George Bush had an approval rating in the 20's, with most Americans opposing the Iraq and Afghan wars. Obama has a 50% approval rating with a slight majority of Americans supporting the healthcare bill, and the renewed initiative in Afghanistan.
But then again, I don't know if we are talking about the "don't raise taxes" tea partiers or the "the government will kill grandma" tea partiers. They're hard to define.
11111110 1 year ago
@11111110 The "average" person is supposed to be the person whom agrees with you, I assume.
tkwelge 1 year ago
@tkwelge
No, I was a Bush supporter.
11111110 1 year ago
@11111110 The AFP has to do a lot of legal shit, including naming donors and amounts to meet requirements to exist. It's not like they can lie about who gives them money, that is all public record. Hardly "lying" in the traditional sense.
tkwelge 1 year ago
@tkwelge
Just because they are really bad at it, doesn't make it any less of a lie.
11111110 1 year ago
@11111110 WHy would they lie when they have to report the truth every year? This isn't a conspiracy of any kind.
tkwelge 1 year ago
@tkwelge
If I were to go around claiming I was a millionaire, I'd be a liar. The fact that I'm required to report my income to the IRS every year wouldn't make me any less of one.
Likewise, every time AFP claims to be a "grassroots" organization, they are lying. There's no other way to describe it.
11111110 1 year ago
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There was approximately 20,000 to 45,000 people yesterday... the bused in people amount to a small percentage.
Grow up people!
REAL AMERICANS want government OUT of our lives!!
JMehrman 2 years ago
So people who can count aren't "REAL AMERICANS"?
L8nitedave 2 years ago 4
Foundation Funded Idiots...Make your own Got Damn Signs if your a real American and not a foundation funded tool...dumb aSSES
dantronamus 2 years ago 5
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The ratio of manufactured signs to home made signs on the conservative side is about:
1:800
The ratio of manufactured signs to home made signs on the fascist progressive left is about:
800:1
DEAL WITH IT!!
AHAHA!
JMehrman 2 years ago
Ratio of made up statistics in your post
1:1
Ratio of made up statistics in my post
0:1
Deal with it.
anon4654 2 years ago 4
What's wrong with being a part of a foundation. If it wasn't for large corporate supported foundations, we would lose out on a lot of charity. This is simply a foundation that supports a certain point of view. And I support their view, so I don't really see how this is something sinister. You just seem upset that they don't agree with you. Plenty of unions use union money extracted from workers to make signs and bus in protesters. You don't see me talking about restricting unions.
tkwelge 1 year ago
@dantronamus What about all of the union tools? What about all of the people who are bussed in by unions? What about the people who are forced to give up part of their paycheck to politicians that they would never vote for simply because they want to work somewhere that happens to be a closed shop?
tkwelge 1 year ago
@dantronamus What about the union thugs? Of course nobody can possibly disagree with you! You're fantastic!
tkwelge 1 year ago
wow, a bussed in protest.
L8nitedave 2 years ago
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I guess SEIU and Acorn mean nothing to you ... LOL!
JMehrman 2 years ago
wow, a bussed in controversy.
L8nitedave 2 years ago 3
Most protests involve large organizations with biased interests shipping there supporters out to a photo op. What the hell is the difference?
tkwelge 1 year ago
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Part 5: Want to know what the govt can do? 1) Create jobs and stop spending frivolously. 2) Open inter-state capability to buy insurance. This would create competitiveness and lower costs
3) Tort reform to discourage frivolous lawsuits.
Those are just 3 things which would dramatically lower costs.
Saddlemomma 2 years ago
Seems like a great way to waste your time.
Alxscode 2 years ago
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Part 4: We are the unheard of uninsured. No one is counting families like us. We don't want someone taking care of us. We have always been fine on our own until this economic mess. There are millions of families just like mine out there, caught in the middle-unable to go on public assistance but unable to afford private healthcare. If govt would concentrate on creating jobs instead of the feel-good social issues, we could all get back to work and build up this country!
Saddlemomma 2 years ago
CAPITAL IS MONEY.
DoNotTread0nMe 2 years ago
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Part 3: Now, with this new Pelosicare, as of 2016, if we don't buy healthcare, we can be fined $15,000 plus spend 5 years in jail! GOOD CALL PELOSI! If there are NO JOBS, how can we BUY your health care???? We don't want someone else to have to pay for our care. We're not thriiled with having to apply for state-run care as we've learned how well the state or government runs anything. What choice does my family have?? Tell me how Pelosicare will help us and thousands like us?
Saddlemomma 2 years ago
Part 2: We are applying for state-run health care, but guess what? Because we have some savings put away to get us through the winter without a job, we aren't eligible for the state plan! We can't afford the $1000/month for health insurance if we want to keep our house, eat, pay our bills, but we are penalized because we have the money to keep our house, eat an pay our bills without total assistance. Total idiocy. THIS IS THE PROBLEM!!!
Saddlemomma 2 years ago
Part 1: It's so easy for liberals to say we are wrong. The fact is, this plan doesn't help people like me and my family.
My husband lost his engineering job of 17 years Feb. 2009. We live in a very rural area - NO JOBS! He can't even get a job at $9/hr because he's over qualified (according to area employers). Now we have NO income, COBRA benefits have run out. We have access to only 1 health insurance provider in our state. It would cost us $1,000/month to get health insurance!
Saddlemomma 2 years ago
shes hot
GreenBlade8100 2 years ago
Corporate shills.
madman8852 2 years ago
I have yet to hear of one single govt run program that is run effectively and efficiently. Obama wants weeping changes, yet can anyone show me that someone has gone to other countries to see what works and what doesn't?
Why not fix what is broken, first - The Government Accounting Office estimates that current Medicare/Medicaid overpayments will exceed 69 BILLION DOLLARS !!! Why not FIX WHAT IS BROKEN, before you go on to create yet another bureaucratic nightmare.
whiskeymedic 2 years ago
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whiskeymedic 2 years ago
who the fuck is david cock?? and who are all these junkies on buses?? progresive scumbags
johnnytapia1981 2 years ago
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"Progressives" just don't seem to get it. I don't want you making decisions about my health care. I don't trust you. I don't like you. I want you as far away from me and mine as possible.
Billyothon 2 years ago
And I want health insurance CEOs and bureaucrats as far away from my fucking health insurance premiums as possible. They are for MY HEALTH CARE, not to make some fucking greedy assholes obscenely rich. Every single year.
It's time people take their country back from "big government" AND from the boundless power lust and greed of BIG CORPORATE AMERICA who bends us over backwards and pounds it hard until hard-working Americans are left screwed and bleeding to death.
MisterZellers 2 years ago 2
Clearly, then, you don't want to be using a website owned by people like Sergey Brin and Larry Page.
MarquisdeBarrabas 2 years ago
@ right-wing drone.
MarquisdeBarrabas 2 years ago
Amen...Brother
wtamu1 2 years ago
Progressives are not making decisions about your healthcare. An insurance company in Ohio is. And anyway the bill won't go into effect for years long after Obama is gone. It is NOT a government takeover but rather a competing plan. Private insurance is not going away and you can keep your insurance. Get the facts.
jensen1901 2 years ago
How do companies that have to make profits to survive compete with the government that has no such limitations?
I simply don't want the govt. screwing up my health care. Their track record in health care matters is horrendous. Google conditions at Walter Reed Army Hospital or look up the Air Force kid who went into a govt hospital (Travis AFB) to have his gall bladder remove & left that simple procedure minus BOTH legs, due to medical error. Keep your govt. crap, I don't want it.
Billyothon 2 years ago
My god how will they EVER survive!!!!!! Profits at 10 of the countrys largest publicly traded health insurance companies rose 428 percent from 2000 to 2007, while consumers paid more for less coverage. If they make a little less and have to compete, I won't cry and my rates will go down. There will still be insurance companies. You can still keep your plan. The government will not "screw up your health care." You don't have to choose the public option. That's why it's called an OPTION.
jensen1901 2 years ago 6
Oh of course, the plan is clearly a dickless half measure. But to the democrats this is the foot in the door. The idea that there is no going back to markets in healthcare, and that it is only a matter of time until we have single payer nationalization. But the bill is still an abomination of regulation and extra costs that won't help anybody for half a decade even if you believe his tripe.
tkwelge 1 year ago
Sorry, you are clearly crazy and/or obsessed. Look at all the comments you are leaving here. I will no longer engage with you.
jensen1901 1 year ago
why do people expect grass root activists to come by foot? whats about buses that is so suspicious?
wdcsucks1 2 years ago
They are only mad because they couldnt get 4 lazy potheads liberals out of bed at noon to take a shower and come down. They have been talking about this for a week now, why didnt libs get someone to oppose them? Because there wasn't a welfare check involved.
bigdogsdontbark 2 years ago
Grass root?
MendingMedia 2 years ago 2
The only bus a teabagger belongs in is a short one!
ProgressiveAction10 2 years ago
Oh my !!! We have a "progressive" posting a blatantly derogatory remark involving the developmentally disabled. Whatever happened to inclusion, tolerance and diversity?
Billyothon 2 years ago
Real estimates for the protest "crowd" = 3,000 to 4,000.
The Americans for Prosperity morons are actually PROUD that they brought in 40 buses.
40 buses at 40 people each = 1,600.
Probably a hundred or so AFP staffers worked the event.
That means that approximately 40-55 percent of the people at the "grass-roots" event were brought in by Koch Industries.
I keep waiting for the media to stop shilling for this crap. Maybe when the protests get down to 1 clown car and a bear on a bicycle.
bushputz 2 years ago 4
@bushputz What is wrong with Koch and other supporters helping eachother? How is this proof of some corporate cabal? You people are so nutty and deluded.
tkwelge 1 year ago
There's also the millions who weren't able to show up too. The polls aren't showing the tea partiers to be a collection of fringe nuts. Unless you think a third to half of america are "in the fringe." It's a good thing that we have you protest critics now that you're guy is in power. You would have never given a protest anywhere near this level of scrutiny if it was an anti bush protest.
tkwelge 1 year ago
Do not use my taxes to pay for anyone else's health care, and do not take away my taxpayer-funded medicare.
Basically, the attitude of these pricks is: I got mine, fuck you.
acinodras 2 years ago 4
Actually alot of us want medicare cuts too. That doesn't speak for all of us. Sorry.
tkwelge 1 year ago
These are people on Medicare and they are coming to protest government health insurance?
MrCallipygous 2 years ago 7
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Did you see anyone's Medicare ID? No, I guess not, you're doing what "progressives" always do... spewing sewage.
Billyothon 2 years ago
I'm wondering why Steve Doocy isn't down there doing backflips. This is his kind of "real America".
oodoodanoo 2 years ago
after watching this Republicans - watch the video of Bachmann saying 'there wasn't a single bus'
xnothingbutthetruth 2 years ago 6