Lane Control in Long Beach, CA

[VietSquat]

can you get shot for doing this out here in LA?

[norem4c]

Linden and Ocean.. love Modicas.

[wesoishi]

"Forget about your rights. Forget about what's fair. Forget all the rules of etiquette you ever learned. The average bicycle weighs twenty-five pounds. The average motorized vehicle weighs twenty-five hundred pounds. Your job is to avoid getting into an accident, not to prove you were within your rights after you're involved in one." Bob Katz, from "The Quotable Cyclist"

[CyclistLorax]

This is exactly why I control lanes, to be seen and therefore avoid crashes, and it's the same reason I control lanes in my 2,500 pound car; to be seen by the drivers of 25,000 pound 18-wheel rigs so I can similarly avoid being in a crash. Thanks for the above quote, since it helps me to reinforce the message about the benefits of lane control. These videos are intended to be educational and your comments are helpful in dispelling popular misconceptions about sound traffic cycling behavior.

[wesoishi]

I am waiting for your next video "Lane Control In South Central" . You can control cars behind you without being the the middle of the lane. If you position yourself slightly closer to curb side, overtaking cars can still overtake, but not be forced to deal with actually making a complete lane change into the next lane. When the average speed limit around town is 35mph, and you force cars to slow to 15mph, it tends to frustrate drivers. At least by being to one side, you seem to be courteous.

[CyclistLorax]

Why do you think lane control in South Central would be any different? I've logged enough miles there to know that it's similar to Long Beach. My experience is that I'm rarely honked at or told to "get on the sidewalk" in low income areas, whereas it does happen in affluent areas; this I believe stems from affluent drivers feeling a sense of entitlement over bicyclists.

[CyclistLorax]

Riding right of center in a travel lane invites closer passes than riding center or left of center. I want motorists to treat me like a driver and make full lane changes. Why do you feel the need to mollycoddle the feelings of other drivers? Do you move to the side of a lane in your car to make passing easier for other drivers? Drivers already know what to do when they encounter a slower driver, wait or change lanes.

[CyclistLorax]

When you look at actual average travel speeds including red-light stops in most urban areas, the speeds are typically on the order of 15mph or slower when congested. Look at the silver Chrysler ES-300 we followed in the video, because of traffic lights, his average speed was the same as ours after passing us, so we're not significantly delaying traffic, the traffic lights are main source of delay, and I will remind you that cyclist safety takes precedence over motorist convenience.

[bikenhike]

Riding closer to curb wrongly conveys to approaching motorists that they can pass without slowing down or changing lanes. This is what leads to the frustration and anger when they can't, say due to traffic in adjacent lane when they reach you.  Clearly take control of the lane so they know with plenty of time and space to prepare, and you encounter much less frustration and anger. Contrary to intuition, I often get waves and nods of "thank you" when I ride like this - I like that.

[PillBoxable]

Gee I don't know, how about the previously mentioned, PUBLISHED, study by Ian Walker.

But dont let the facts get in the way right?

You two butt buddies will keep blocking traffic and feeling your have the right. Just like a pedestrian has the right to step in front of a speeding car and make it stop.

I am done with this.Arguing on the youtube is like winning the special olympics. You may get a medal, but your still retarded.

[CyclistLorax]

Quotes characteristic of retardation:

"You two butt buddies will keep blocking traffic " [we are traffic]

"a pedestrian has the right to step in front of a speeding car and make it stop" [illegal per the CVC]

I'd have more respect for you pushing your opinion if it were better informed. Unfortunately, like teamfestus, you delve into ad hominem rhetoric. I suggest you find less sophisticated people to pester; they may find your sophomoric arguments persuasive; I don't.

[bikenhike]

PillBoxable, what about Walker's study?

You think it shows that trying to share a lane that is too narrow to safely share is safer than clearly controlling such a lane? I suggest you read it again.

[PillBoxable]

Lol, so no data?

[bikenhike]

Right, no data from a study comparing lane control to lane sharing in narrow lanes, so your skepticism is not supported by data either.

What kind of data would you like to see? How would do you envision it being obtained?

[teamfestus]

Dan Guttierz after reading you responses i think you suffer from Narcissism

Narcissism is not high self-esteem, but a condition where the typical narcissist suffers from:

Preoccupation with hiding real or perceived flaws

Overestimation of importance, achievements, talents and skills

Maladaptive attention seeking behavior

excessive anger and shame in response to criticism often resulting in rage

good luck w/ that

[CyclistLorax]

Argument ad hominem is the refuge of the sophist. This video is about lane control, and all you have to say is that you think I'm a narcissist? While I appreciate your misguided attempts to play amateur psychologist; such rhetoric is irrelevant to the purpose of the video.

[wesoishi]

There are some people who will walk across a street in a crosswalk, making cars stop for them. I prefer to wait for a break in traffic and then walk across. I ride my bike in the same manner, trying to fit into traffic and avoid confrontations and conflict.

[CyclistLorax]

Comparing a pedestrian to a driver is not the same as comparing two drivers. When I'm on the roadway, whether in a car or a bike, I act as a driver, and as such I use the right lane when slower than otehr traffic; this is not a "conflict", it is a normal part of driving. Faster drivers make lane changes to pass.

[CyclistLorax]

By definition, our actions in the video demonstrate that we "fit in". I suppose if I didn't believe I was a full and equal driver, and had an obligation to place the convenience of other drivers above my own, then I guess I would act as you do. Of course I don't consider lane control to be unsafe or a conflict, as this was the purpose of the video, to show lane control as normal behavior, so some of this difference of opinion depends on our differing perspectives of our place in traffic.

[wesoishi]

I started riding in the 70's at Como Street in Irvine. I've ridden and raced up and down SoCal. The guys I rode with are Gil Hatton (Gibby's dad), Pete Whitehead (sons are Mark and David), John Howard, Gian Simonetti (Medici), Brian Baylis, Ron Skarin, Pete Pensyre (RAAM winner), etc. Also, I taught bike handling at the Encino Velodrome, ADT and the Olympic Velodrome. I think I know how to ride a bike in traffic, safely. I am not equal in that I weigh 150 lbs, go 20mph.

[CyclistLorax]

How sad that in all that time you haven't learned the distinction between movement rules and physical size, or about the error of conflating the driver with the method of conveyance. The driver of a bicycle, a Geo Metro, and 18-wheeler all drive in travel lanes, stop at stop signs and red lights, and must yield when changing lanes, use proper destination lanes, etc. In this critical sense they are equal drivers because they follow the same movement rules.

[CyclistLorax]

And the reason the movement rules work for vehicles/devices of disparate size is because they promote both visibility and predictability so drivers can both see each other and drive in locations where standard movements are expected. Again this is the point of making these videos, to show that when cyclists act as drivers, they are treated as such by other drivers. One last point. racing skills are not the same as traffic skills, so hanging with racers doesn't mean you have traffic skills.

[wesoishi]

Dan (it is Mr Guttierez, is it not?), Did you ever write a rebuttal to Ian Walker's scientific, published study? I went to his blog and did not see it. Wes

[CyclistLorax]

We had a rebuttal document on the CyclistView website, and decided to work on a study of lane positioning instead, so we took it down. We have other priorities (training materials for engineers) at the moment, so I'm not sure when we will re-post something on the effect of lane positioning on motorist overtaking to the website.

[PillBoxable]

"I suppose if I didn't believe I was a full and equal driver, and had an obligation to place the convenience of other drivers above my own,"

You do the exact opposite...you are forcing people to travel at YOUR speed, even though everyother car could accelerate and travel much faster and still be safe and legal...your obivously powertripping and its gonna end up costing you

[CyclistLorax]

So you think I'm doing the opposite of placing the convenience of other drivers above my own? Not so. I'm placing my safety over the convenience of other drivers when I control lanes. Any other slower driver does the same. Again, only someone that didn't believe cyclists were full and equal drivers would describe lane control as "powertripping". Queing behind slower drivers, like bicyclists, is a normal part of driving, so you should expect to sometimes be delayed. Safety trumps convenience.

[PillBoxable]

WOW, you appear unable to see any other side than your own. IF your priority was safety, you would drive a car. Safety is not a your priority. Enjoying your commute is your priority. And you are selfish enough not to care if you inconvenience your fellow commuters.  I cycle for all kinds of reasons...fun,health,economy, ect. safety is not why normal people ride a bike.

[bikenhike]

PillBoxable, I know Dan and have ridden with him. When he says he places his safety over the convenience of drivers, he just means he's not going to put himself at risk so that others can pass him easier, and riding nearer the edge of the road is doing exactly that in many cases. You're right though that the commute is more enjoyable when you ride safely, because unsafe curbside riding with drivers not noticing you and driving really close to you is not enjoyable.

[bikenhike]

This style of riding, espoused in Cyclecraft by John Franklin BTW, does not normally force others to slow down much or very often, precisely because the lane controlling position is so conspicuous.  Look at the video. Drivers generally notice him when they're still a long ways back, and have much more time than usual to change lanes before reaching him. Ride closer to the curb and they notice you much later, and too late much more often, having to slam on their brakes or make an unsafe pass.

[bikenhike]

PillBoxable wrote: "safety is not why normal people ride a bike." True, but normal people wear helmets never-the-less. Safety is not not WHY Dan rides his bike, but safety is the reason he rides his bike THE WAY he rides his bike, and why he, I and probably you wear a helmet too. Riding this way is probably much more effective with respect to safety than is wearing a helmet. Riding vehicularly lowers odds of crashing; helmets maybe reduce injury but do zilch for preventing crashing.

[PillBoxable]

In god I trust....everybody else needs data....Where is the data? Dan wrote quite a response to a study that pointed to a less aggressive style of riding as being the safer option....where is the data that proves riding in the middle of the road at aprox 20 mph less than the flow of traffic is safer?

[bikenhike]

No data shows sharing lanes is safer either, but we still have to decide where to ride. When I switched to this method the incidence of close calls went from a few a week to one every few years. No comparison. Use a mirror and be prepared to move aside in case you're not noticed, and additional risk is nil, but you are safer because you're much more conspicuous and have much better sight lines.

[CyclistLorax]

Less agressive? Riding in the middle of a lane is not agressive, it is assertive. Agression is an act or threat of harm against another person. Controlling a lane is just driving; all drivers do it, so to label it as "agressive", or riding at the edge of the road as "less agressive" is a framing that I do not accept as a rational description of a normal driver behavior.

[CyclistLorax]

I did not say my priority was safety, This is a strawman argument, I wrote that safety trumps convenience. Please learn to parse sentences for meaning before you act on misunderstadnings of what I wrote.

[midtoad]

I don't see any shoulder check prior to the lane-change around 2:10 nor any shoulder check prior to the left turn. Surely shoulder checks are considered an essential survival skill?

[CyclistLorax]

Rear scanning is an essential driving skill, and we are using mirrors to do this so the video will not go "wild".

[midtoad]

Thanks for making that point clear. Rear scanning is important for two reasons: it allows you to see approaching traffic, but also it allows you to communicate to approaching drivers. When you look a driver in the eyes, he's less likely to treat you as an object.

[aaronpropst]

great demo! I'm taking an LCI course soon and this will be a big help if/when i start teaching!

[CycleMan2200]

I think that skyline would rather ride next to car door's and not be visible to other driver's, making him 5 times more likley to get nailed by a car and to be hit by an opening car door. Ignore others wrong opinions and ride in traffic to be seen and to be safe.

[stevo5001]

THat is just brilliant! THe two riders are dressed very similarly.. i thought they were the same person, but now can see that they are infact different.

[stevo5001]

where is the camera person??? the two views are simultaneous, but there does the leading/following cameras do not appear in the respective frames! How do it work???

[CyclistLorax]

Each of the cyclists has a helmet camera, and each is videotaping the other. Thus the front cyclist is shooting the rear cyclist and the rear traffic, and similarly for the rear cyclist shooting the front cyclist and the front traffic. You can learn more about how we developed the technology in a presentation on the Cyclist View website:

cyclistview(dot)com/technology­/index(dot)htm just replace each (dot) with a .

[JimexJimex]

Whoa but even you guys' cadences match! lol

[CyclistLorax]

We were in the same gear moving at the same speed, if our cadences didn't match, then that would be remarkable!

[Douger4u777]

what was your average speed riding in long beach? i'm riding there from Westminister for the first time this week. i'm going to use the scenic route on the bike path. i think a bike would be great in longe beach, due to the parking issues.

[beachbunny85]

I commute 14 miles in long beach everyday by bike to college ans work. I feel very safe but

I also use non major streets, much safer and faster.

[CyclistLorax]

Why do you believe that non-major roads, which have frequent stop signs and more difficult arterial crossings, are faster than major roads? I regularly use arterials because they are faster on average for bicycle travel than side streets. This results from lights favoring my direction of travel and no stop signs. In any event, the point of this video is to show that controlling lanes is safe an useful for cyclists using public roads.

[ThePrimeSpotcom]

You should look into getting this put on Long Beach Community Television (cable access TV channels 65, 69 + 95!)

[wesoishi]

I agree w/ Mr Smith. As an ex-road racer, I've spent miles on L.A. streets. The best way to stay safe is to stay away from cars. A car vs. bike collision is always bad and is to be avoided at all costs. As a teacher & coach, I would never teach that a hand signal shields you from overtaking cars. Cyclists go slow in comparison to cars. If the spd limit is 35, then traffic is likely going 40~45. Getting in front of cars, no matter what, impedes traffic & is dangerous. You are a bike, not a car.

[CyclistLorax]

You couldn't be more wrong. Bikes and cars are inanimate objects; cyclists and motorists are people, who are drivers. Drivers follow driver rules. Apparently you haven't learned those rules. Drivers have the right to control lanes, and slower drivers must use the right hand lane. You also don't understand the definition of impeding traffic, since any driver in compliance with law, by using the right hand lane when slower, is by law NOT impeding traffic. Go read CVC 22400(a) for details.

[skylinefolife]

If you trust other drivers to OBEY the traffic laws, then sir, you are mistaken. Bike defensively. Also, I dont think a bicycle belongs in the flow of traffic. My 2 cents.

[CyclistLorax]

This is a strawman argument. I don't expect other drivers to obey all traffic laws all the time; I just need to be highly visible so they pass me safely and don't turn across my path; this works as the video shows. By using a highly visible lane position, and avoiding being at the edge of the road at driveways and intersections, and staying out of the door zone, I am driving my bicycle defensively. This is the main point of the video!

[skylinefolife]

Ride safely man. I still oppose this kind of cycling.

[CyclistLorax]

Where did I say that a hand signal "shields" a cyclist from motorists? Any smaller slower vehicle or device, be it a bicycle in front of a sedan or a sedan in front of a semi-truck, is only protected from the larger faster vehicle by virtue of their visibility by controlling the lane. This is the essence of traffic law; making interactions of faster and slower drivers low risk. Viewing cyclists as road rats that must hide from motorized predators at the road edge actually increases risk.

[Dershnof]

We may not be cars but we are vehicles by law. Even though we go slower than cars..we have rights to be riding in traffic..no matter the road or speed limit. Its just that simple.

[CycleMan2200]

Well since you apparently wont ride a bike in the road, then go ahead and just ride on the sidewalk just like a little 9 year old kid. I guarentee you will get hit from driver's backing and pulling out of driveways and intersections at some point. Riding in the street with cars is far safer than using the sidewalk!

[midtoad]

Bikes aren't blocking traffic, they ARE traffic.

[Mikab61]

While this is all well and good, I think you should stress not to push this issue with a 2 ton car or truck. With the increase in road rage in this area several cyclists have been hit and killed by upset motorists. I have lived in Long Beach 47 years and been hit before by pushy drivers. Don't push the issue. Michael Smith Coach; USA Cycling, Olympic Velodrome, Chevrolet/Sheriffs Jr. team, and Bicycle LA Safety Training Program.

[CyclistLorax]

I'm not sure what you mean by pushing the issue? We were simply acting as drivers, by being predictable and lawful, as we teach in our Bike Ed classes on this same route, so I don't believe we were pushing anything. We were showing in this video that when a cyclist follows traffic rules, they don't create friction or annoy motorists, compared to cyclists who make unpredictable maneuvers or create stressful situations for motorists. Please note that I'm not accusing you of such behavior.

[Mikab61]

No, don't mean to be critical. The video was good I'm talking about the comments. Drivers aren't always so nice as everyone describes and riders should understand when it's proper to stay left in the lane and when you need to back down. Had a rider hit this way, and I sure wont force the issue with today's drivers. Some drivers just don't like cyclists and think they should be on the sidewalk. The lessons good but there are always exceptions to every rule.

[dzinehaus]

Congratulations, this is what a cyclist should do out of his/her own safety. Dressing the part shows other motorists (any other vehicle sharing the road) that you are serious about following the same laws as them. I notice in Montreal, Quebec, Canada, that drivers like in many other cities become quickly frustrated with the cyclists that use road control. I like how the cars just go into the other lane.

SMART RIDING AND KEEP RIDING SAFE !!!

[alpha3939]

Seconding that this is an excellent video, but it looks like a Sunday afternoon or something. I'd be interested to see how it holds up in heavy traffic.

[CyclistLorax]

I ride this road regularly at all times during the day and night, and traffic treats me the same way as you see in the video. No honks, just lane changes or queuing. Because of traffic lights, the vehicle flow is never continuous, instead it platoons, and each vehicle platoon redistributes to flow around us like water flowing past a stone. You can see a similar effect in our Bicycle Driving on SoCal Arterials video.

[trevorspoke]

Great video!

First left turn the bike starts in the left side of the lane and ends in the right. An impatient motorist might try to come around on the right, with bad results. I recommend keeping lane position through turn, then moving right after a head check.

Lead driver doesn't seem to do many head turns to check for overtakers before making lane changes. Even if a mirror is used, I think this is still essential.

[CyclistLorax]

Trevor,

In all of my decades of traffic cycling; I've never had an impatient motorist try to pass me on the right; only on the left. If I had turned to the inside lane, then I would have encouraged the motorist to pass me on the right, and this could well have delayed our lane change back to the outside lane. Since this indirect turn delays the transition from destination to speed positioning until after the turn, I don't consider it to be as clear and cooperative as turning directly.

[CyclistLorax]

Yes, both riders are using their mirrors, as this makes the video better. And the large solid angle mirrors we use allows us to see across the whole road, not just the lane behind us. This helps in seeing those who may be turning across the road an into the inside lane. When we take students out on the road training portion of the Road I course, we demonstrate head turns, but this would ruin the video if we were making frequent head turns.

[geoave]

great video- couple questions a) was the person in the wheelchair pushing themselves backwards? second question - what other techniques do you have for mid block jay walkers?

[CyclistLorax]

Yes the wheelchair user was propelling himself backwards in fits and spurts. I don't beleive I would have hit him if I held my course, and because I like to carry extra margin agaisnt hitting a ped, I moved rightward. Regarding midblock jay-walkers; I usually slow or change my line. I've rarely had to completely stop fo ra jay-walker; maybe a couple of times in the last 20 years of traffic cycling.

[geoffreygee]

An excellent demonstration. Although it would be more interesting to see it during peak travel hours.

[jasonkro]

This should be a required view for driver's education!