Interesting. How many times have we violated the commandment not to make fun of other people's defects and disabilities? (Leviticus 19:14), how do we treat strangers and immigrants who live in our land? (Lev. 19:33). There are over 600 laws and regulations in the Torah. How do we apply them to our modern times and how can we follow them?
Knox's way of saying "Who cares?" when he mentioned the possibility of David being bisexual is really questionable. If he did not care , then he would not be in gay, lesbian and bisexual and transgender advocacy. Maybe that whole argument of David and Jonathan sharing a higher form of love which was on the level of a platonic filios(brotherly love between friends without a sexual context) hit too close to Knox's heart. But that said, I really don't think love makes things right, including sex.
D: This debate was obviously too close for Knox, he kept feeling insulted, but I can understand why. 'Colored' people in debates about slavery (in history, mind you), were set with very personal POVs as well. I believe a non-gay could have offered a more impartial/informative voice, like a "white" man standing up in defense, or a male standing up in defense of women. Also, Brown made good points; whether the law likes it or not you love who you love and 'commit', but...you're still a fornicator.
First of all, The Church of Christ embraces what the Bible says. You cant get around the fact that the scriptures speak against same sex relationships. Churches can call themselves COC but until you do what Christ says you are not Of Christ. The sign above religious buildings can say COC but what goes on inside the building,inside the heart, and in our daily lives following Christ and the doctrine of the apostles makes it the Church Of Christ.
This man is foolish and doesnt properly divide scripture. First, Jonathan was married when he and David were best friends. Secondly David was not gay, he had over 300 wives 700 concubines. Thirdly all of Davids servant knew he loved women. In his elderly yrs when his body wouldn't contain warmth they brought him a woman to keep him warm. The deception of Isaac was feeling the animal fur on Jacob and ignoring the voice. This man believes he is ok with God based on feeling, disregarding Torah
@LifterwiII The reason I used the word TORAH was not to be arrogant. I love God! Torah is the instruction God gave Israel from Mt. Sinai, thats all. If you prefer to call it old testament you may do as you please.It's still good enougp for me. Torah is the actual Hebrew word, as you probably know..Pentateuch is the greek word. My understanding of the scripture is that it has it's origins in the semetic language "Hebrew!" Yeshua/Jesus is Hebrew as well! Call it what u like, no sleep loss here!
@LifterwiII As far as your disdain for Jews and Hebrew, that's what I would label as arrogant. The saviour of the world is A Jew!!!!!!! And spoke to Saul/Paul in the Hebrew language when he forgave him and saved his soul. God Bless the Jews! All the apostles Yeshua/Jesus chose were Jews! God is my judge as to whether or not I'm arrogant, not you Lifterwill. Pray about you attitude.
@TheTruthPastor There is a whole lot of difference between arrogant,pompous Zionist Jews like Michaeel Brown and real Jews. Ask any number of Hassidic Jews what they think of Zionist Jews like this wierdo.
@TheTruthPastor Read my other post .. There is a HUGE difference between Jews and Zionists like Michael Brown. This guy is Zionist to his core with ALL of the arrogance and pompousity that goes with it. See the many videos on here from conservative Jews and find out what even THEY think of Zionists like Brown.
@TheTruthPastor are you saying that Torah is the entire old testament? Sorry but you are wrong .. however I gave up playing Bible Brawl with Fundamentalists a LONG time ago.
@LifterwiII My last response. Of course I'm not. You did tho. If I'm wrong, you made yourself God and a judge..Sorry,but I don't care what you think about me. You dont know me and to assume you do is arrogant on your part. If ur heart is right, good! Yes, I am a Bible fundamentalist!!!! The Bible gave me a life. I owe ALL my gratitude to God. All I owe you is love, so that I do. Take care.
@TheTruthPastor I guess that might be one major difference between us. Our Father gave me life by his Spirit ... The Bible is merely a witness of The Word of God who is Jesus Christ. While I appreciate the history, instruction and revelation in scripture, I am NOT a fundamentalist and I don't worship the bible. There is a HUGE difference between fundamentalism and Christianity .. and this is just one of those differences.
@LifterwiII Your interpretations r condemning/condescending.U don't represent God or Yeshua/Jesus.U'r not a fundamentalist? One of the worst. Full of hate/anger. Stop giving satan dwellings. Angry bcuz I agree w/Torah u hate. If u were spiritually mature you'd drop senseless debating.Stop twisting words, to make urself feel righteous. Im done responding to you. If it makes u feel better.YOU WIN!!! I don't want ur kinda religion! I'll stick with Y'shua Messiah!
@LifterwiII 1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Cr 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
@TheFurthertruth I'm not sure what you are looking for in that passage that refers to homosexuality ... Am I missing something? Are you referring to the word Arsenokoites which is speaking of Pederasty (sexual child abuse) or Malakois (morally soft or .. amoral)? And you are ... a pastor?
@TheFurthertruth Do urself a favor, don't get involved with This persons' sensless debates. I you look thru the comments u will see this person picks fights. If I were were more informed from the start, I'd've never responded. I'm new to Utube, but I'm learning quickly who's on it.
it does NOT SAY "second CHANCE" 1Sa_18:21 Saul thought, "Let me give her to him, that she may be a snare for him and that the hand of the Philistines may be against him." Therefore Saul said to David a second time, "You shall now be my son-in-law." Harry Knox seems he CANNOT quote scripture right...
Furthermore there are people who are asexual,panssexual,transsexual. There are many different labels out there. While I would love to be in a relationship I do tell the person upfront that I am celebaite and this makes them feel weird. I don't know why. I am not overly christian but I feel that this debate is pointless. As long as it does not hurt anyone why is it so bad? I believe in morality but that morality may be a different definition for all.
@InspiredMuse74 No, Morality is a definition given by God and God alone. If its moral to me to shoot you with a shotgun,then it's not God's Moral. There is only one definition of what is moral and good and natural. There is no sin in love, indeed. But God intended it that way, that there was Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. Homosexuality is a sin, and we all are sinners. But by the Blood of Christ we can accept salvation and be freed from sin and hell! God loves the sinner,but he hates the sin!
@InspiredMuse74 God wanted there to be a man and a woman. One man shall have ONE WOMAN for the rest of his life. This is what's right.
If a person lives in sin, whether it's homosexuality or lying or stealing or whatever, then he will not inherit the kingdom of God. I didn't make that up. I didn't make the rules, God did. And we would be way better off following them.
I don't see what is wrong if two people love each other. There is no sin in love. I can see if someone sleeps around with a lot of different people or is irresponible with their bodies. I am not in a relationship myself. I am celebiate for myself because I think people place to too much emphasis on sex. I know this may make people on my facebook on comfortable when I say this but I don't identify myself in relationsip to an orientation.
@someguyupnorth Idk what you're trying to say? lol at me? I'm trying though, man :). I just don't want anyone to be deceived. The truth is in God's Word ya know? Btw I like your name it's cool! :)
@Addy4473 Thanks, I was making the point that as serious as sexual sin is, telling a practicing homosexual that they do not need to confess those sins to God is sinful in and of itself.
@someguyupnorth Amen. I think we should all just ignore mr. LifterWill. The Bible says to turn away from such people. He is just a false prophet. Hopefully he will see the truth one day, but I doubt it. So just don't even let him get to you. :) God bless.
@LifterWill Drop the ad hominem; You haven't given us any proof. Why do you believe that the condemnation of sex between people of the same gender in scripture is only referring to pagan sex practices and not all homosexual relations?
@someguyupnorth Hey man, just one last time; ignore him. He's just here to debate you, not to get to the truth. Look at his profile. He's a 64 year old guy. I think he's a catholic. Don't even pay attention to him. This is my last comment for you, okay? Just go around warning people about him. He's a false prophet, and he's spitting on the Word of God for his own beliefs. Okay? :) God bless.
How do you account for this lifterwill? Should I trust your intuition above that of a scholar in Biblical languages not to mention a myriad of gay leaders in the church who agree that a strict interpretation of scripture, even in the original languages, still condemns homosexuality?
Mr. Knox didn't present very many Biblical arguments. His views towards homosexuality and the church seem to be based more on his own personal experience and what he believes is the direction of the Holy Spirit. He didn't do much to counter Dr. Brown on a scriptural basis because the Bible is explicit in its condemnation of sex between men or women. They gay church leaders he mentioned agree with him on this.
Does anyone notice what Harry Knox says toward the end? "Micheal you may say that everyone might not have to live under Biblical Law but you sure are saying that Mike and I have to..." OF COURSE YOU HAVE TO! Doesn't he claim to be a Christian?! I thought so. So Christians don't use God's Word as a guide anymore?As Supreme and sufficient authority? I appreciate this guys argument but he has ran into too many walls and now he is at a dead end. He is in the wrong.
are fighting against "who they are." But the Hope of it all: "For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh" Romans 8:3. We are powerless to change ourselves from within, but Christ is here, and He is powerful!
I find it interesting that when someone tries to justify Homosexuality (within Christianity) it is always based upon that persons feelings and never has any ground in scripture. I understand that this is a tough thing to deal with, and it makes sense. In 1 Corinthians 6:18 Paul says, "Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body." So it makes since that this is tough for people because its like they...
@LifterWill Okay cool. Well I do not wish to argue but I would like to seek the truth together. So you said my words were a complete lie, correct me where I am wrong. What does scripture say regarding homosexuality?
@LifterWill "The other instances ALL deal with the pagan fertility cults of Canaan and later Roman Gentile culture."
So then when the Bible commands us not to get drunk, is it referring only to drinking in pagan religious ceremonies? Couldn't I apply this logic to any sin where there was a connection with paganism? What proof do you have other than accusing us of being less educated than you?
@MrNomatic Hey man, I don't want you to be deceived here. This guy is just trying to win an argument. He doesn't care about the truth. I want you to be open-minded about it, but go ahead and look at both sides of the argument. Don't let him deceive you, brother. With all the love in my heart. :) You take care.
What ground does Knox have to dismiss polygamy (not necessarily Biblically condemned, but not Biblically sanctioned.) and affirm homosexuality? Is supposed "feeling" imparted by the Holy Spirit enough to overthrow scripture? Polygamy is demonstrated in the Bible to be a very poor idea (based on the outcome of every polyamorous relationship), but it is infinitely more defensible than homosexuality.
The man's views are completely arbitrary and based solely on what he wants to believe.
Before claiming/saying anything related to Christianity, we must always refer to the Bible as God speaks to us through the Bible. Paul writes "...Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral... nor homosexual offenders.. will inherit the kingdom of God." (1st Corinthians 6:9, NIV) However, this does not mean we should hate gays, and vice versa, as Colossians 3:13 states, "Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you."
@LifterWill Dude, leave it alone. You're just trying to win your cause for the sake of winning it. Just take a few days and calm down, okay? You're deceiving people and you know it. Leave them alone. It is unbelievable how you're attacking God's Word right now. You are the one that needs to stop taking God's Word in vain; you are the one that needs to cease. Just stop it man. You're not doing anything here.
@LifterWill lol. i dont have time to read everything you're writing, but it seems to me you love to provoke people with your comments, as this comment section is being flooded by you. clearly, you have some issues with yourself which i wont waste time elaborating. if you're a christian, reflect.
wow. have no one read about sodom and gomorrah....the days of noah?....oh my gosh. if one had read about sodom and gomarrah you understand God's disposition on this matter. Bible...is not a buffet. you don't get to pick and choose a parts of the word leave the strict out then call yourself christian. doesn't work that no matter how much you kick, scream, cuss, mock, hate, or try to find loop-holes. they ain't none. this matter is strictly stated all over the bible new and old testament.
Simply put - the author(s) of the bible did not know homosexuality as the modern day same-gender-loving people. If fact, the term was introducted in the 1800s - as mentioned in the debate. And, therefore, one could argue the condemned homosexual acts in the bible speaks to the heterosexual person who goes against their native disposition. This viewpoint can be supported through the "nature vs. nurture" theory. Concluding, the bible is not resourceful on fully understanding this lifestyle!
@Addy4473 This would imply that the nature of man is to be with a woman. Where in fact, a lot of homosexuals have never been attracted to the opposite sex. Therefore, it wouldn't be natural for them to pursue anything outside of their personal desire. Paul, in Romans 1 - was referring to heterosexual people losing their desire for the opposite sex. In this case, it would be considered vile affections, because they were acting outside of their native disposition.
@gtallenjr The very nature of man is to be with women; however, because of our sinful natures, this view has become distorted. Paul greets the Romans in Romans 1, and quickly changes the scene into God's obvious nature, in which man has rebelled against. Because of their sins, the people were given over to unnatural attractions. Thus, sin is the root for homosexuality. But such sin can be overcome through Jesus Christ :)
@Addy4473 Paul is speaking to those who violate their sexual orientation, those that go against their natural desire. But - a homosexual's natural desire is for the same sex. Therefore this verse doesn't speak of them. His explanation for given them over to unnatural attractions: is that they have refused to acknowledge God, and therefore God gave them up to their own wicked desires. However, I respect your position. And, YES, sin can be overcome through Jesus Christ :-)
@gtallenjr Friend, I respect you too, but the problem is we come up with two different viewpoints. The Bible has one message, and we can't read it with a biased heart in order to get our own interpretation out of it. I've read the Bible with an open heart, but there is nothing in there condoning homosexuality. Especially in Romans 1:24-26. He doesn't mention their sexual orientation, he says that they defy nature; God's natural law for men and woman, not their orientation. I find it hard to
@gtallenjr believe that a group of men gave up their orientations in order to lust for the same sex, especially seeing as how it was very uncommon in that day. They lusted after sex, not what was outside their orientation; yes they lusted after their own sex, but in turn that doesn't justify homosexuality.
@Addy4473 As mentioned, the writers of the bible didn't know of homosexuality as we know it today. Therefore, it's not in the reading. And conservative christians find it hard to understand something that's not bible-based. Jesus never mentioned it, in fact - Paul teaches there's neither male or female in Christ. And you're right, they defied nature. But - THEIR nature, it doesn't say God's law for men and women, just like it doesn't say sexual orientation. So, there's room for interpretation!
@gtallenjr One more thing; you have to remember that Leviticus 18:22 is still in play. I love homosexuals, but I don't condone their actions. They have to repent in order to be saved from their lusts.
@gtallenjr Friend, you have to understand that even in the King James Version, the idea of homosexuality is in place. Sure they didn't use the word homosexuality, but in the King James Version, Paul's meaning is still interpreted the correct way. Jesus never mentioned it, just as he never mentioned bestiality, rape, necrophilia, etc. But that doesn't condone it. Jesus did state His idea of marriage in Matthew 19, and Jesus is God, so He will not argue with His Father. Thus, it doesn't matter
@Addy4473 1.Paul said, "....gave them over to SHAMEFUL LUSTS...", Idk about you but to me, it sounds like Paul is talking about what was considered shameful lusts to their culture then. Why didn't just say, "...gave them over to SINFUL ACTS..." 2. those unnatural acts could be anything (even oral sex). 3.there is no proof that same sex loving and committed relationships as we know them today were known of in the "Bible days"...
@LifterWill Well, friend, I believe the context of your messages proves my point. The very attitude you take on this is very contradictory to how a true sincere follower of Christ should act. Using the statements you used previously, you have proven that your fruit is bad; you produce bad fruit, and your hatred toward "fundamentalists" is so obvious that anyone could point it out.
I'll regard your comments the best I can.
1. While it's true that the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah were
@LifterWill probably guilty of idolatry, they were guilty of other sins as well. Heterosexual sins can be accounted for as well. They were wicked men and women. Again, though, I'm not using the case of Sodom and Gommorah to defend the "anti-gay" agenda. I'm using Genesis 2:24-25 (I think it goes to 25) and Leviticus 18 and 20.
I have read Leviticus 18 and 20. I have read from beginning to end. Only one passage is used on idoltary that I can see, and that's the child sacrifice to Molech. Now,
@LifterWill in regards to homosexual practice in pagan god rituals; I'd be willing to admit that they practiced such acts. But this by no means condones homosexual practice. The Bible is clear; a man shall not lay with a man as he would a female. This is an abominable act. Not to say that homosexual orientations are hated by God; nobody can help how they feel, and homosexuals are loved by God as are heterosexuals. But homosexual practice is strictly forbidden. You've yet to counter the practice
@Addy4473 of transcription and translation. You simply ask for the right translation. I'm talking about translations of languages, such as from Greek to English, not versions (such as KJV or NIV). And as for the women statement, well, this sums up the argument. I can see your true motives here aren't sincere. That very statement is from the Bible you are using for your personal claims. "Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man." I Corinthians 11:9. Both men and women are precious in
@LifterWill Okay, now you see, this is what I'm talking about. Look at the very emotion you display. It's pure hypocrisy, friend. I know there is emotion in my speeches, but I have quoted scripture. Go back and actually read my comments. Look, I really don't think this is going anywhere. I honestly want the best for you, but you have to open your heart, mate. I love you and care for you, but this is a decision you have to make.
Just to sum up (because I don't see much point in arguing) I will
Note that I have not and will not argue on the Sodom and Gomorrah issue. That's not part of my argument.
I use Genesis 2:24-25, Matthew 19: 1-12, I Corinthians 6: 9-11, and Leviticus 18:22 in my arguments.
God created man for Himself, and women for the man. I stated that previously. I supported that with scripture (recheck my comments if you doubt me). Women was created as a gift for men, and are meant for romantic relationships with men. That is God's
@LifterWill intended purpose. As for the Hebrew words, let me just say this; seeing as how there are multiple translations for Hebrew words anyways, you are probably taking something way out of context. For example, the Hebrew for the word day has four different meanings. So just think about it before you pick one definition and run out the door with it.
Also, I will not challenge the integrity of Bible scholars like Dr. Michael Brown (GOd bless him!) and those that have successfully
@LifterWill translated the Bible from the original languages to the many languages in our world today. You may know a little Hebrew from looking things up online, but I'm guessing that's about all you know. You have yet to mention anything about that. You defended with the question "what translation?" but I already addressed that earlier.
And of course, you have yet to post any passages that condone homosexual practice. I have an idea of what you would post, and if you post them, then I may
@LifterWill counter back. But of course there are no passages condoning homosexual practice.
I think you, most of all, have been the emotional one. Your ranting and raving on this page is most evident. I am ashamed to say that you, sir, are the one that are driving people away. If you would just give up your stubbornness and ask yourself "Could I be wrong?" you would see the truth. Your arrogance and bigotry has driven people away.
I will end with this (at least I hope so). Overall, the Bible
@LifterWill mentions very little on homosexuality. It is straight and to the point though. God created them male and female. A man shall not lay with another man as he would a female; that is an abomination in the Lord's eyes. (Lev. 18:22) (forgive me if the last four words aren't mentioned in Scripture). Homosexual offenders (those that practice homosexual behavior of any sort) shall not enter the kingdom of heaven (not to be confused with those that have homosexual behaviors). That is what God
@LifterWill has in His Word. Jesus is the Word, and will agree with the Father.
We are not at war against the gay agenda; nor are we at war with atheism. Our war is a spiritual battle, one that will last to the end of our times. My friends, don't listen to this false prophet. Listen to God's Word; I am a liar compared to God's Word. And God is true; turn to Him, repent from your sins, and experience the joy of eternal life. Just give Jesus' way a chance; homosexual practice is wrong! Merry
@gtallenjr if He directly talked about it or not. And Leviticus has 3 different sets of laws; ceremonial, civil, and moral. The first two don't apply today, but the moral laws apply universally. Yes, He has freed us from the law, but Paul also writes that the law is a good thing. You see, the Law condemns; but we are freed from that law. We live by the Spirit; and thus, as a by-product, cleansed by His blood, we will abide by the law. We are freed by the law's condemnation, but We must still
@Addy4473 Ezekiel 16:48-50 states it clearly. The people of Sodom, like many people today, had abundance of material goods. But they failed to meet the needs of the poor, and they worshipped idols. The sins of injustice and idolatry plague every generation. We stand under the same judgment if we create false gods or treat others with injustice.
@gtallenjr abide by it after salvation. That's what Paul meant, my friend. :) Jesus didn't come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. God bless you :)
@Addy4473 "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." These words occur solely in the Holiness Code of Leviticus, a ritual manual for Israel's priests. Their meaning can only be fully appreciated in the historical and cultural context of the ancient Hebrew people. Israel, in a unique place as the chosen people of one God, was to avoid the practices of other peoples and gods.
@gtallenjr We're supposed to avoid those practices too, though. We are God's children as well. Are we supposed to engage in those activities, including incest and bestiality? that's in the holiness code of Leviticus as well. The law's are universal, friend. :) As for Sodom and Gomorrah, if you read the text, you understand that there were many sins they committed, they one outlined as homosexual rape. They wished to engage in homosexual intercourse with two angels they presumed to be men. So :)
@Addy4473 but they did not wish to pursue loving and committed relationships with those angels either.... so the question still stands. where is the proof that the Bible condemns same sex loving and committed relationships as it does homosexual rape and same gender sex used as a tool for showing power, idolatry and as a side dish for unsatisfied married (heterosexual) men?
@grvcrazy Son, your logic is a little messed up. It has nothing to do with culture; Paul knew the Old Testament front to back. You couldn't get a dime past him without him knowing it. Read the rest of that passage, and you will see that Paul condemns the relationship between two people of the same sex. And as for your second comment, that makes no sense. What if one does not lie with a woman? That just doesn't make any sense, bud. That's reaching out in the dark for an answer. Now, you say that
@grvcrazy Yes, oral sex is included, but Paul was referring to homosexuality in that passage, not oral sex. Bible scholars agree on that passage. Your third complaint? Sodom and Gomorrah? The Roman empire? The Egyptians? They all practiced homosexual behavior, which is condemned by our Lord and Father. And no, of course, they didn't want to pursue in a loving relationship with angels, but here is the thing; the Bible doesn't say that the men of Sodom knew whether or not they were angels. In
@grvcrazy fact, it clearly states that the men said "Let us see the MEN that went in with you, that we may know them carnally". Look at Genesis 19; in fact, read the entire book of Genesis, read it with an open heart, seeing that you might be wrong about what you're saying. The proof that the Bible condemns same-sex marriages? Where is the proof that God condones the marriages? You have to understand how God established marriage. We see clearly that marriage is between a man and a woman, not
@LifterWill Well, seeing as how the events in Sodom and Gomorrah involved other abominable acts of sin as well, we can leave that behind. However, I can't seem to resist the temptation to question you on your motive here. I don't want to be rude or hateful, but I want you to reexamine your motives here. Okay? :).
Now, let's check back to Leviticus 18:22. The verse clearly states that homosexual practice is abominable in the Lord's eyes (I know that's not the literal statement that God made,
@LifterWill that sums it up). The other nations were committing the practices, and God did not want Israel to indulge in homosexual practice. Now, I understand you know a little bit of Hebrew. That's good. But I think you're challenging the integrity of the translators here. As Michael Brown stated, he has studied the Hebrew; nothing indicates that the homosexual practice was referring to idol worship. If so, don't you think that the interpreters, being God fearing men, would distort God's Word,
@LifterWill knowing full well that God Himself would hold it against them? Not so. They were just posting what the original Hebrew said in regards to homosexuality. They were unbiased in their translation. Now, it seems to me that they know Hebrew a whole lot more than you or I do. I wouldn't dare challenge their integrity. It's a rather bold thing for you to state Hebrew (again I'm trying to be loving here) in order to defend your position. Now if you are a full fledged Hebrew expert, then I
@LifterWill apologize. Nevertheless, I believe that the translation is put the way it is put so that we can understand just what God wants. God is not a God of confusion; everything He states is straight and to the point. The evidence is right in front of us. The female was created for the male, my friend. There is a reason for that. Just think about it. God bless :)
@grvcrazy between two men or two women. Practicing such is going against God's will for marriage, thus sinning against God. If God intended for two men or two women to marry, then He would have allowed such. However, we see that He set it between a man and a woman. It's quite clear; your logic is basically based on a "what if" basis. :) With all the love in my heart, please approach this with an open mind. God bless you :)
@gtallenjr and also, whatif one does not lie with a woman; whatif one has absolutely no idea what/desire to do (with) a woman in bed? Can people still quote that verse?
The statements he makes of the deep committed love of David and Jonathan is extremely biblical in its original texts. One must look at the all of the text. He statements are not Blasphemous, but factual. - Rt. Rev. Robert D. Hall, Ecumenical Catholic Bishop, M.Div.,D.Min. Ph.D., OFC.
@candiceevans1 I was waiting for the knock-out blow from Dr. Brown.....but it seems he was not ready to deal with the Jonathan and David issue...Yahweh destroyed several cites in the Old Testament for homosexuality, bestiality, fornacation, and adultery....Yahweh is the same today, yesterday, and forevermore....There is no "Shadow" of turning in Him....If He changes, then he can't be Yahweh.....God Bless Candice!
Cities were destroyed for inhospitality (not sexuality). You must read the entire text in it's original language. Jesus himself when asked stated the sister city was destroyed but because of inhospitality. Yes, bestiality, adultery, etc. are are ungodly, and therefore sinful, but they have nothing to do with the topic. God did not create children in God's image, so they could hate or dispise themselves. The Holy Spirit continues 2 guide us. There is nothing ungodly about same-sex love.
@txjockcop When you read the scriptures around Sodom and Gomorah you will see these cities were a cesspool of sins. But homosexuality was at the top of the list. The men of the city even tried to rape the Angels that were sent by God to warn lot to leave the city because it was going to be destoryed. Lot even offered his daughters in exchange that the men of the city would not rape his guest. They refused! Man was created in God's image and homosexuality is not part of God's character!
@LifterWill of transcription and translation. You simply ask for the right translation. I'm talking about translations of languages, such as from Greek to English, not versions (such as KJV or NIV). And as for the women statement, well, this sums up the argument. I can see your true motives here aren't sincere. That very statement is from the Bible you are using for your personal claims. "Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man." I Corinthians 11:9. Both men and women are precious i
@LifterWill in God's eyes. There is no better sex. I was simply stating that women are a gift; precious as they are, they were are gift to us, meant to be loved and cherished. I'm not trying to bash you or hit you here, but you should seriously check your motives. Just calm down, and ask yourself; could I be wrong? And as for the Hebrew you've mentioned; again, you are challenging the authority of the translators here. If that passage were condemning homosexual prostitution or homosexual
@LifterWill pagan ritual worship, and not homosexual practice in general, I believe we would see a different passage. God is not a God of confusion. He is straight to the point. Again, I challenge you, build a positive case for homosexual practice. Show me where God condones homosexual practice. Those are the passages we want you to defend, really. Problem is, there are none. So you're stuck attacking people, commenting on posts left months ago in order to start a fight. You call us
@LifterWill fundamentalists, and try to mock our intelligence. If you really were a Christian, your comments would be motivated by love, as mine are for you. I will admit, I am angry at you for your attitude, but I do care for you. Repent, or else you will face the eternal wrath of God, my friend.
Harry seems like a very nice, loving guy who loves God, but he is simply wrong.
The biggest problem with homosexuals and their relationship with God is not their sin. Jesus paid the price for that already. but the problem is their denial of sin. Paul speaks of this over and over. It really can't be spoken of anymore plainly in the Bible the immorality of homosexuality.
It's not spoken plainly at all in the Bible. It speaks of male rape, and women being treated as property, when is where the Sacrament of Marriage originates unfortunately, and it speaks of believing that the male seed is only in sperm, thus masterbation was through to be murder. We know a great deal more now. The Divine Holy Spirit guides us and directs us to loving relationships. - Rt Rev. Robert D. Hall, D.Min.,Ph.D.
@txjockcop This is my problem. You defenders of homosexuality always discredit everything Paul has to say. Paul condemned homosexuality several times in the NT. It's very plain. No, he wasn't saying it was worse than other sins, but he clearly stated it was a sin. Why do you think he included it in a list of adultery, swindling, and idolatry? (I'm sure you have some cheap talking points to refute that.)
Every reference to Sodom in the NT condemns their SEXUAL IMMORALITY, not just rape
As to your third point, you're absolutely right, and in the cases that we can consider where same sex couples have their entire estates taken from their surviving partners, it often seems the motivation is spite rather than actual financial need (where instead the financial need lies with the surviving partner). The most frightening part about that? It's legal.
Perhaps I'm not understanding where you're pulling this from, where does promiscuity factor in here? I've been with my partner for 3 years, he's the first person I've ever been with and hopefully the last. I do not see where in my argument you pulled promiscuity out as a defensible topic. Perhaps the "5 months ago" I wrote this comment has something to do with my confusion as well...
My points were merely examples, my partner is perfectly healthy- honestly, thank you for your concern though.
Mr. Knox is twisting and stretching scripture big time. There is absolutely not one place in scripture that homosexuality is liberated, any time you see inference to homosexuality in the bible its is negative.
@LifterWill I'm not trying to follow you around, but in one of the earlier parts Dr. Brown said that an interpretation of scripture which leads one to believe that references to homosexuality are always in the context of fertility cult worship is blatantly wrong.
@LifterWill I know about that but the act of two men and two women is sin, its is clearly stated in Romans 1.
God made it clear, one man, one women with Adam and Eve. I dont know why we try to over complicate the simple.
Its is mentioned in cult worship for it was the practice of idolatry. I ask you if it is always around Idolatry do you thinks its good? Its is something that is and was looked upon as some higher spirituality. Its simply perversion, practiced in perversion of who God is.
@LifterWill II have studied the lies and the perversion that you want to make just in God eyes. The scripture says that men shouldnt even behave in an effeminate manner but you propose that two men can be together.
Anyway, I have no idea about your accusation and I dont see Mr Brown being out of his depth at all.
It does not take years of study either to know the truth aof the deception you support.
@LifterWill Yes it is a waste of your time because you argue against truth. Have ever read Romans 1? It condemns those who have been given over to the sin of homosexuality.
Interesting. How many times have we violated the commandment not to make fun of other people's defects and disabilities? (Leviticus 19:14), how do we treat strangers and immigrants who live in our land? (Lev. 19:33). There are over 600 laws and regulations in the Torah. How do we apply them to our modern times and how can we follow them?
Tzedaqyal 2 months ago
@Tzedaqyal My video Cherry picking the scriptures can clear things up for you.
RepresentingTruth 1 month ago
Knox's way of saying "Who cares?" when he mentioned the possibility of David being bisexual is really questionable. If he did not care , then he would not be in gay, lesbian and bisexual and transgender advocacy. Maybe that whole argument of David and Jonathan sharing a higher form of love which was on the level of a platonic filios(brotherly love between friends without a sexual context) hit too close to Knox's heart. But that said, I really don't think love makes things right, including sex.
Kevchung11 2 months ago
D: This debate was obviously too close for Knox, he kept feeling insulted, but I can understand why. 'Colored' people in debates about slavery (in history, mind you), were set with very personal POVs as well. I believe a non-gay could have offered a more impartial/informative voice, like a "white" man standing up in defense, or a male standing up in defense of women. Also, Brown made good points; whether the law likes it or not you love who you love and 'commit', but...you're still a fornicator.
SyntheticSheep 3 months ago
JESUS will rule the world with a rod of iron! Submit to JESUS! REPENT not just confess and BELIEVE on HIM!
TheElectricpablo 3 months ago
homosexuals love mind games.. they stick this weak looking soft spoken person (playing on sympathy) rationalizing perversion..
rogueronin82 5 months ago 4
First of all, The Church of Christ embraces what the Bible says. You cant get around the fact that the scriptures speak against same sex relationships. Churches can call themselves COC but until you do what Christ says you are not Of Christ. The sign above religious buildings can say COC but what goes on inside the building,inside the heart, and in our daily lives following Christ and the doctrine of the apostles makes it the Church Of Christ.
rorschach162 6 months ago
Jesus said, "He who believes in me shall by no means be put to shame."...By no means, is by no means.
1norville 6 months ago
This man is foolish and doesnt properly divide scripture. First, Jonathan was married when he and David were best friends. Secondly David was not gay, he had over 300 wives 700 concubines. Thirdly all of Davids servant knew he loved women. In his elderly yrs when his body wouldn't contain warmth they brought him a woman to keep him warm. The deception of Isaac was feeling the animal fur on Jacob and ignoring the voice. This man believes he is ok with God based on feeling, disregarding Torah
TheTruthPastor 7 months ago
@TheTruthPastor Not all of us are JEWS .. why not say Old Testament or Pentateuch rather than TORAH. Don't be so arrogant.
LifterwiII 6 months ago
@LifterwiII The reason I used the word TORAH was not to be arrogant. I love God! Torah is the instruction God gave Israel from Mt. Sinai, thats all. If you prefer to call it old testament you may do as you please.It's still good enougp for me. Torah is the actual Hebrew word, as you probably know..Pentateuch is the greek word. My understanding of the scripture is that it has it's origins in the semetic language "Hebrew!" Yeshua/Jesus is Hebrew as well! Call it what u like, no sleep loss here!
TheTruthPastor 6 months ago
@LifterwiII As far as your disdain for Jews and Hebrew, that's what I would label as arrogant. The saviour of the world is A Jew!!!!!!! And spoke to Saul/Paul in the Hebrew language when he forgave him and saved his soul. God Bless the Jews! All the apostles Yeshua/Jesus chose were Jews! God is my judge as to whether or not I'm arrogant, not you Lifterwill. Pray about you attitude.
TheTruthPastor 6 months ago
@TheTruthPastor There is a whole lot of difference between arrogant,pompous Zionist Jews like Michaeel Brown and real Jews. Ask any number of Hassidic Jews what they think of Zionist Jews like this wierdo.
LifterwiII 6 months ago
@TheTruthPastor Read my other post .. There is a HUGE difference between Jews and Zionists like Michael Brown. This guy is Zionist to his core with ALL of the arrogance and pompousity that goes with it. See the many videos on here from conservative Jews and find out what even THEY think of Zionists like Brown.
LifterwiII 6 months ago
@LifterwiII Ok Lifterwill. Take care.
TheTruthPastor 6 months ago
@TheTruthPastor are you saying that Torah is the entire old testament? Sorry but you are wrong .. however I gave up playing Bible Brawl with Fundamentalists a LONG time ago.
LifterwiII 6 months ago
@LifterwiII My last response. Of course I'm not. You did tho. If I'm wrong, you made yourself God and a judge..Sorry,but I don't care what you think about me. You dont know me and to assume you do is arrogant on your part. If ur heart is right, good! Yes, I am a Bible fundamentalist!!!! The Bible gave me a life. I owe ALL my gratitude to God. All I owe you is love, so that I do. Take care.
TheTruthPastor 6 months ago
@TheTruthPastor I guess that might be one major difference between us. Our Father gave me life by his Spirit ... The Bible is merely a witness of The Word of God who is Jesus Christ. While I appreciate the history, instruction and revelation in scripture, I am NOT a fundamentalist and I don't worship the bible. There is a HUGE difference between fundamentalism and Christianity .. and this is just one of those differences.
LifterwiII 6 months ago
@LifterwiII Your interpretations r condemning/condescending.U don't represent God or Yeshua/Jesus.U'r not a fundamentalist? One of the worst. Full of hate/anger. Stop giving satan dwellings. Angry bcuz I agree w/Torah u hate. If u were spiritually mature you'd drop senseless debating.Stop twisting words, to make urself feel righteous. Im done responding to you. If it makes u feel better.YOU WIN!!! I don't want ur kinda religion! I'll stick with Y'shua Messiah!
TheTruthPastor 6 months ago
@LifterwiII 1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Cr 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
TheFurthertruth 6 months ago
@TheFurthertruth I'm not sure what you are looking for in that passage that refers to homosexuality ... Am I missing something? Are you referring to the word Arsenokoites which is speaking of Pederasty (sexual child abuse) or Malakois (morally soft or .. amoral)? And you are ... a pastor?
LifterwiII 6 months ago
@TheFurthertruth Do urself a favor, don't get involved with This persons' sensless debates. I you look thru the comments u will see this person picks fights. If I were were more informed from the start, I'd've never responded. I'm new to Utube, but I'm learning quickly who's on it.
TheTruthPastor 6 months ago
Dr. Brown is right on point! We need to keep folks like Mr. Knox in prayer....This is the reprobate mind Paul warned us abut.
chadrivas 7 months ago 2
1. Michael Brown was very charitable. 2. Harry Knox was very, well, uncharitable.
elderaps 7 months ago
Harry Knox claims to be a "christian" so He CAN be called to live up to Christian standards which he fails at...
rbmath 7 months ago 2
it does NOT SAY "second CHANCE" 1Sa_18:21 Saul thought, "Let me give her to him, that she may be a snare for him and that the hand of the Philistines may be against him." Therefore Saul said to David a second time, "You shall now be my son-in-law." Harry Knox seems he CANNOT quote scripture right...
rbmath 7 months ago
Harry Knox's arguements are all about playing the victim card and trying to fear monger
funk7000 9 months ago 2
Furthermore there are people who are asexual,panssexual,transsexual. There are many different labels out there. While I would love to be in a relationship I do tell the person upfront that I am celebaite and this makes them feel weird. I don't know why. I am not overly christian but I feel that this debate is pointless. As long as it does not hurt anyone why is it so bad? I believe in morality but that morality may be a different definition for all.
InspiredMuse74 1 year ago
@InspiredMuse74 No, Morality is a definition given by God and God alone. If its moral to me to shoot you with a shotgun,then it's not God's Moral. There is only one definition of what is moral and good and natural. There is no sin in love, indeed. But God intended it that way, that there was Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. Homosexuality is a sin, and we all are sinners. But by the Blood of Christ we can accept salvation and be freed from sin and hell! God loves the sinner,but he hates the sin!
andyf5 1 year ago
@InspiredMuse74 God wanted there to be a man and a woman. One man shall have ONE WOMAN for the rest of his life. This is what's right.
If a person lives in sin, whether it's homosexuality or lying or stealing or whatever, then he will not inherit the kingdom of God. I didn't make that up. I didn't make the rules, God did. And we would be way better off following them.
Greetings
andyf5 1 year ago
I don't see what is wrong if two people love each other. There is no sin in love. I can see if someone sleeps around with a lot of different people or is irresponible with their bodies. I am not in a relationship myself. I am celebiate for myself because I think people place to too much emphasis on sex. I know this may make people on my facebook on comfortable when I say this but I don't identify myself in relationsip to an orientation.
InspiredMuse74 1 year ago
I appreciate both of the speakers but I'm left to side with Dr. Brown on this one. Knox was weak in his presentation.
SupremeHero777 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
@LifterWill Uh, ok.
SupremeHero777 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
God hates homosexual practice, but He loves homosexuals. Let's not condemn homosexual; let's show them the way to eternal life, Jesus! :)
Addy4473 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
Repent, lest you cause your brother to stumble.
someguyupnorth 1 year ago
@someguyupnorth Idk what you're trying to say? lol at me? I'm trying though, man :). I just don't want anyone to be deceived. The truth is in God's Word ya know? Btw I like your name it's cool! :)
Addy4473 1 year ago
@Addy4473 Thanks, I was making the point that as serious as sexual sin is, telling a practicing homosexual that they do not need to confess those sins to God is sinful in and of itself.
someguyupnorth 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
@someguyupnorth Amen. I think we should all just ignore mr. LifterWill. The Bible says to turn away from such people. He is just a false prophet. Hopefully he will see the truth one day, but I doubt it. So just don't even let him get to you. :) God bless.
Addy4473 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
@LifterWill Drop the ad hominem; You haven't given us any proof. Why do you believe that the condemnation of sex between people of the same gender in scripture is only referring to pagan sex practices and not all homosexual relations?
someguyupnorth 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
@someguyupnorth Hey man, just one last time; ignore him. He's just here to debate you, not to get to the truth. Look at his profile. He's a 64 year old guy. I think he's a catholic. Don't even pay attention to him. This is my last comment for you, okay? Just go around warning people about him. He's a false prophet, and he's spitting on the Word of God for his own beliefs. Okay? :) God bless.
Addy4473 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
How do you account for this lifterwill? Should I trust your intuition above that of a scholar in Biblical languages not to mention a myriad of gay leaders in the church who agree that a strict interpretation of scripture, even in the original languages, still condemns homosexuality?
someguyupnorth 1 year ago 2
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LifterWill 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago 2
Mr. Knox didn't present very many Biblical arguments. His views towards homosexuality and the church seem to be based more on his own personal experience and what he believes is the direction of the Holy Spirit. He didn't do much to counter Dr. Brown on a scriptural basis because the Bible is explicit in its condemnation of sex between men or women. They gay church leaders he mentioned agree with him on this.
someguyupnorth 1 year ago 2
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LifterWill 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
Does anyone notice what Harry Knox says toward the end? "Micheal you may say that everyone might not have to live under Biblical Law but you sure are saying that Mike and I have to..." OF COURSE YOU HAVE TO! Doesn't he claim to be a Christian?! I thought so. So Christians don't use God's Word as a guide anymore?As Supreme and sufficient authority? I appreciate this guys argument but he has ran into too many walls and now he is at a dead end. He is in the wrong.
MrNomatic 1 year ago
are fighting against "who they are." But the Hope of it all: "For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh" Romans 8:3. We are powerless to change ourselves from within, but Christ is here, and He is powerful!
MrNomatic 1 year ago
I find it interesting that when someone tries to justify Homosexuality (within Christianity) it is always based upon that persons feelings and never has any ground in scripture. I understand that this is a tough thing to deal with, and it makes sense. In 1 Corinthians 6:18 Paul says, "Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body." So it makes since that this is tough for people because its like they...
MrNomatic 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
@LifterWill Okay cool. Well I do not wish to argue but I would like to seek the truth together. So you said my words were a complete lie, correct me where I am wrong. What does scripture say regarding homosexuality?
MrNomatic 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
@LifterWill "The other instances ALL deal with the pagan fertility cults of Canaan and later Roman Gentile culture."
So then when the Bible commands us not to get drunk, is it referring only to drinking in pagan religious ceremonies? Couldn't I apply this logic to any sin where there was a connection with paganism? What proof do you have other than accusing us of being less educated than you?
someguyupnorth 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
@MrNomatic Hey man, I don't want you to be deceived here. This guy is just trying to win an argument. He doesn't care about the truth. I want you to be open-minded about it, but go ahead and look at both sides of the argument. Don't let him deceive you, brother. With all the love in my heart. :) You take care.
Addy4473 1 year ago
What ground does Knox have to dismiss polygamy (not necessarily Biblically condemned, but not Biblically sanctioned.) and affirm homosexuality? Is supposed "feeling" imparted by the Holy Spirit enough to overthrow scripture? Polygamy is demonstrated in the Bible to be a very poor idea (based on the outcome of every polyamorous relationship), but it is infinitely more defensible than homosexuality.
The man's views are completely arbitrary and based solely on what he wants to believe.
nofalltoofar 1 year ago
Before claiming/saying anything related to Christianity, we must always refer to the Bible as God speaks to us through the Bible. Paul writes "...Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral... nor homosexual offenders.. will inherit the kingdom of God." (1st Corinthians 6:9, NIV) However, this does not mean we should hate gays, and vice versa, as Colossians 3:13 states, "Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you."
LittleMissterious 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
@LifterWill Dude, leave it alone. You're just trying to win your cause for the sake of winning it. Just take a few days and calm down, okay? You're deceiving people and you know it. Leave them alone. It is unbelievable how you're attacking God's Word right now. You are the one that needs to stop taking God's Word in vain; you are the one that needs to cease. Just stop it man. You're not doing anything here.
Addy4473 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
@LifterWill so what are you trying to say by correcting my "error", Will?
LittleMissterious 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
@LifterWill lol. i dont have time to read everything you're writing, but it seems to me you love to provoke people with your comments, as this comment section is being flooded by you. clearly, you have some issues with yourself which i wont waste time elaborating. if you're a christian, reflect.
LittleMissterious 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
wow. have no one read about sodom and gomorrah....the days of noah?....oh my gosh. if one had read about sodom and gomarrah you understand God's disposition on this matter. Bible...is not a buffet. you don't get to pick and choose a parts of the word leave the strict out then call yourself christian. doesn't work that no matter how much you kick, scream, cuss, mock, hate, or try to find loop-holes. they ain't none. this matter is strictly stated all over the bible new and old testament.
GODsGraceisIndaMusic 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
Simply put - the author(s) of the bible did not know homosexuality as the modern day same-gender-loving people. If fact, the term was introducted in the 1800s - as mentioned in the debate. And, therefore, one could argue the condemned homosexual acts in the bible speaks to the heterosexual person who goes against their native disposition. This viewpoint can be supported through the "nature vs. nurture" theory. Concluding, the bible is not resourceful on fully understanding this lifestyle!
gtallenjr 1 year ago
@gtallenjr It goes against every man that goes against against his nature. Every man.
Addy4473 1 year ago
@Addy4473 This would imply that the nature of man is to be with a woman. Where in fact, a lot of homosexuals have never been attracted to the opposite sex. Therefore, it wouldn't be natural for them to pursue anything outside of their personal desire. Paul, in Romans 1 - was referring to heterosexual people losing their desire for the opposite sex. In this case, it would be considered vile affections, because they were acting outside of their native disposition.
gtallenjr 1 year ago
@gtallenjr The very nature of man is to be with women; however, because of our sinful natures, this view has become distorted. Paul greets the Romans in Romans 1, and quickly changes the scene into God's obvious nature, in which man has rebelled against. Because of their sins, the people were given over to unnatural attractions. Thus, sin is the root for homosexuality. But such sin can be overcome through Jesus Christ :)
Addy4473 1 year ago
@Addy4473 Paul is speaking to those who violate their sexual orientation, those that go against their natural desire. But - a homosexual's natural desire is for the same sex. Therefore this verse doesn't speak of them. His explanation for given them over to unnatural attractions: is that they have refused to acknowledge God, and therefore God gave them up to their own wicked desires. However, I respect your position. And, YES, sin can be overcome through Jesus Christ :-)
gtallenjr 1 year ago
@gtallenjr Friend, I respect you too, but the problem is we come up with two different viewpoints. The Bible has one message, and we can't read it with a biased heart in order to get our own interpretation out of it. I've read the Bible with an open heart, but there is nothing in there condoning homosexuality. Especially in Romans 1:24-26. He doesn't mention their sexual orientation, he says that they defy nature; God's natural law for men and woman, not their orientation. I find it hard to
Addy4473 1 year ago
@gtallenjr believe that a group of men gave up their orientations in order to lust for the same sex, especially seeing as how it was very uncommon in that day. They lusted after sex, not what was outside their orientation; yes they lusted after their own sex, but in turn that doesn't justify homosexuality.
Addy4473 1 year ago
@Addy4473 As mentioned, the writers of the bible didn't know of homosexuality as we know it today. Therefore, it's not in the reading. And conservative christians find it hard to understand something that's not bible-based. Jesus never mentioned it, in fact - Paul teaches there's neither male or female in Christ. And you're right, they defied nature. But - THEIR nature, it doesn't say God's law for men and women, just like it doesn't say sexual orientation. So, there's room for interpretation!
gtallenjr 1 year ago
@gtallenjr One more thing; you have to remember that Leviticus 18:22 is still in play. I love homosexuals, but I don't condone their actions. They have to repent in order to be saved from their lusts.
Addy4473 1 year ago
@Addy4473 Leviticus is not where we go for our moral instruction. It is a central thesis of Paul that Jesus has freed us from the Law.
gtallenjr 1 year ago 2
@gtallenjr Friend, you have to understand that even in the King James Version, the idea of homosexuality is in place. Sure they didn't use the word homosexuality, but in the King James Version, Paul's meaning is still interpreted the correct way. Jesus never mentioned it, just as he never mentioned bestiality, rape, necrophilia, etc. But that doesn't condone it. Jesus did state His idea of marriage in Matthew 19, and Jesus is God, so He will not argue with His Father. Thus, it doesn't matter
Addy4473 1 year ago
@Addy4473 1.Paul said, "....gave them over to SHAMEFUL LUSTS...", Idk about you but to me, it sounds like Paul is talking about what was considered shameful lusts to their culture then. Why didn't just say, "...gave them over to SINFUL ACTS..." 2. those unnatural acts could be anything (even oral sex). 3.there is no proof that same sex loving and committed relationships as we know them today were known of in the "Bible days"...
grvcrazy 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
@LifterWill Well, friend, I believe the context of your messages proves my point. The very attitude you take on this is very contradictory to how a true sincere follower of Christ should act. Using the statements you used previously, you have proven that your fruit is bad; you produce bad fruit, and your hatred toward "fundamentalists" is so obvious that anyone could point it out.
I'll regard your comments the best I can.
1. While it's true that the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah were
Addy4473 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
@LifterWill probably guilty of idolatry, they were guilty of other sins as well. Heterosexual sins can be accounted for as well. They were wicked men and women. Again, though, I'm not using the case of Sodom and Gommorah to defend the "anti-gay" agenda. I'm using Genesis 2:24-25 (I think it goes to 25) and Leviticus 18 and 20.
I have read Leviticus 18 and 20. I have read from beginning to end. Only one passage is used on idoltary that I can see, and that's the child sacrifice to Molech. Now,
Addy4473 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
@LifterWill in regards to homosexual practice in pagan god rituals; I'd be willing to admit that they practiced such acts. But this by no means condones homosexual practice. The Bible is clear; a man shall not lay with a man as he would a female. This is an abominable act. Not to say that homosexual orientations are hated by God; nobody can help how they feel, and homosexuals are loved by God as are heterosexuals. But homosexual practice is strictly forbidden. You've yet to counter the practice
Addy4473 1 year ago
@Addy4473 of transcription and translation. You simply ask for the right translation. I'm talking about translations of languages, such as from Greek to English, not versions (such as KJV or NIV). And as for the women statement, well, this sums up the argument. I can see your true motives here aren't sincere. That very statement is from the Bible you are using for your personal claims. "Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man." I Corinthians 11:9. Both men and women are precious in
Addy4473 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
@LifterWill Okay, now you see, this is what I'm talking about. Look at the very emotion you display. It's pure hypocrisy, friend. I know there is emotion in my speeches, but I have quoted scripture. Go back and actually read my comments. Look, I really don't think this is going anywhere. I honestly want the best for you, but you have to open your heart, mate. I love you and care for you, but this is a decision you have to make.
Just to sum up (because I don't see much point in arguing) I will
Addy4473 1 year ago
@LifterWill summarize my arguments.
Note that I have not and will not argue on the Sodom and Gomorrah issue. That's not part of my argument.
I use Genesis 2:24-25, Matthew 19: 1-12, I Corinthians 6: 9-11, and Leviticus 18:22 in my arguments.
God created man for Himself, and women for the man. I stated that previously. I supported that with scripture (recheck my comments if you doubt me). Women was created as a gift for men, and are meant for romantic relationships with men. That is God's
Addy4473 1 year ago
@LifterWill intended purpose. As for the Hebrew words, let me just say this; seeing as how there are multiple translations for Hebrew words anyways, you are probably taking something way out of context. For example, the Hebrew for the word day has four different meanings. So just think about it before you pick one definition and run out the door with it.
Also, I will not challenge the integrity of Bible scholars like Dr. Michael Brown (GOd bless him!) and those that have successfully
Addy4473 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
@LifterWill translated the Bible from the original languages to the many languages in our world today. You may know a little Hebrew from looking things up online, but I'm guessing that's about all you know. You have yet to mention anything about that. You defended with the question "what translation?" but I already addressed that earlier.
And of course, you have yet to post any passages that condone homosexual practice. I have an idea of what you would post, and if you post them, then I may
Addy4473 1 year ago
@LifterWill counter back. But of course there are no passages condoning homosexual practice.
I think you, most of all, have been the emotional one. Your ranting and raving on this page is most evident. I am ashamed to say that you, sir, are the one that are driving people away. If you would just give up your stubbornness and ask yourself "Could I be wrong?" you would see the truth. Your arrogance and bigotry has driven people away.
I will end with this (at least I hope so). Overall, the Bible
Addy4473 1 year ago
@LifterWill mentions very little on homosexuality. It is straight and to the point though. God created them male and female. A man shall not lay with another man as he would a female; that is an abomination in the Lord's eyes. (Lev. 18:22) (forgive me if the last four words aren't mentioned in Scripture). Homosexual offenders (those that practice homosexual behavior of any sort) shall not enter the kingdom of heaven (not to be confused with those that have homosexual behaviors). That is what God
Addy4473 1 year ago
@LifterWill has in His Word. Jesus is the Word, and will agree with the Father.
We are not at war against the gay agenda; nor are we at war with atheism. Our war is a spiritual battle, one that will last to the end of our times. My friends, don't listen to this false prophet. Listen to God's Word; I am a liar compared to God's Word. And God is true; turn to Him, repent from your sins, and experience the joy of eternal life. Just give Jesus' way a chance; homosexual practice is wrong! Merry
Addy4473 1 year ago
@LifterWill Christmas, and I love you all (yes, even you LifterWill!) :)
Addy4473 1 year ago
@gtallenjr if He directly talked about it or not. And Leviticus has 3 different sets of laws; ceremonial, civil, and moral. The first two don't apply today, but the moral laws apply universally. Yes, He has freed us from the law, but Paul also writes that the law is a good thing. You see, the Law condemns; but we are freed from that law. We live by the Spirit; and thus, as a by-product, cleansed by His blood, we will abide by the law. We are freed by the law's condemnation, but We must still
Addy4473 1 year ago
@Addy4473 Ezekiel 16:48-50 states it clearly. The people of Sodom, like many people today, had abundance of material goods. But they failed to meet the needs of the poor, and they worshipped idols. The sins of injustice and idolatry plague every generation. We stand under the same judgment if we create false gods or treat others with injustice.
gtallenjr 1 year ago
@gtallenjr abide by it after salvation. That's what Paul meant, my friend. :) Jesus didn't come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. God bless you :)
Addy4473 1 year ago
@Addy4473 "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." These words occur solely in the Holiness Code of Leviticus, a ritual manual for Israel's priests. Their meaning can only be fully appreciated in the historical and cultural context of the ancient Hebrew people. Israel, in a unique place as the chosen people of one God, was to avoid the practices of other peoples and gods.
gtallenjr 1 year ago
@gtallenjr We're supposed to avoid those practices too, though. We are God's children as well. Are we supposed to engage in those activities, including incest and bestiality? that's in the holiness code of Leviticus as well. The law's are universal, friend. :) As for Sodom and Gomorrah, if you read the text, you understand that there were many sins they committed, they one outlined as homosexual rape. They wished to engage in homosexual intercourse with two angels they presumed to be men. So :)
Addy4473 1 year ago
@Addy4473 but they did not wish to pursue loving and committed relationships with those angels either.... so the question still stands. where is the proof that the Bible condemns same sex loving and committed relationships as it does homosexual rape and same gender sex used as a tool for showing power, idolatry and as a side dish for unsatisfied married (heterosexual) men?
grvcrazy 1 year ago
@grvcrazy Son, your logic is a little messed up. It has nothing to do with culture; Paul knew the Old Testament front to back. You couldn't get a dime past him without him knowing it. Read the rest of that passage, and you will see that Paul condemns the relationship between two people of the same sex. And as for your second comment, that makes no sense. What if one does not lie with a woman? That just doesn't make any sense, bud. That's reaching out in the dark for an answer. Now, you say that
Addy4473 1 year ago
@grvcrazy Yes, oral sex is included, but Paul was referring to homosexuality in that passage, not oral sex. Bible scholars agree on that passage. Your third complaint? Sodom and Gomorrah? The Roman empire? The Egyptians? They all practiced homosexual behavior, which is condemned by our Lord and Father. And no, of course, they didn't want to pursue in a loving relationship with angels, but here is the thing; the Bible doesn't say that the men of Sodom knew whether or not they were angels. In
Addy4473 1 year ago
@grvcrazy fact, it clearly states that the men said "Let us see the MEN that went in with you, that we may know them carnally". Look at Genesis 19; in fact, read the entire book of Genesis, read it with an open heart, seeing that you might be wrong about what you're saying. The proof that the Bible condemns same-sex marriages? Where is the proof that God condones the marriages? You have to understand how God established marriage. We see clearly that marriage is between a man and a woman, not
Addy4473 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
@LifterWill Well, seeing as how the events in Sodom and Gomorrah involved other abominable acts of sin as well, we can leave that behind. However, I can't seem to resist the temptation to question you on your motive here. I don't want to be rude or hateful, but I want you to reexamine your motives here. Okay? :).
Now, let's check back to Leviticus 18:22. The verse clearly states that homosexual practice is abominable in the Lord's eyes (I know that's not the literal statement that God made,
Addy4473 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
@LifterWill that sums it up). The other nations were committing the practices, and God did not want Israel to indulge in homosexual practice. Now, I understand you know a little bit of Hebrew. That's good. But I think you're challenging the integrity of the translators here. As Michael Brown stated, he has studied the Hebrew; nothing indicates that the homosexual practice was referring to idol worship. If so, don't you think that the interpreters, being God fearing men, would distort God's Word,
Addy4473 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
@LifterWill knowing full well that God Himself would hold it against them? Not so. They were just posting what the original Hebrew said in regards to homosexuality. They were unbiased in their translation. Now, it seems to me that they know Hebrew a whole lot more than you or I do. I wouldn't dare challenge their integrity. It's a rather bold thing for you to state Hebrew (again I'm trying to be loving here) in order to defend your position. Now if you are a full fledged Hebrew expert, then I
Addy4473 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
@LifterWill apologize. Nevertheless, I believe that the translation is put the way it is put so that we can understand just what God wants. God is not a God of confusion; everything He states is straight and to the point. The evidence is right in front of us. The female was created for the male, my friend. There is a reason for that. Just think about it. God bless :)
Addy4473 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
@grvcrazy between two men or two women. Practicing such is going against God's will for marriage, thus sinning against God. If God intended for two men or two women to marry, then He would have allowed such. However, we see that He set it between a man and a woman. It's quite clear; your logic is basically based on a "what if" basis. :) With all the love in my heart, please approach this with an open mind. God bless you :)
Addy4473 1 year ago
@gtallenjr and also, whatif one does not lie with a woman; whatif one has absolutely no idea what/desire to do (with) a woman in bed? Can people still quote that verse?
grvcrazy 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
The statements he makes of the deep committed love of David and Jonathan is extremely biblical in its original texts. One must look at the all of the text. He statements are not Blasphemous, but factual. - Rt. Rev. Robert D. Hall, Ecumenical Catholic Bishop, M.Div.,D.Min. Ph.D., OFC.
txjockcop 1 year ago
@candiceevans1 I was waiting for the knock-out blow from Dr. Brown.....but it seems he was not ready to deal with the Jonathan and David issue...Yahweh destroyed several cites in the Old Testament for homosexuality, bestiality, fornacation, and adultery....Yahweh is the same today, yesterday, and forevermore....There is no "Shadow" of turning in Him....If He changes, then he can't be Yahweh.....God Bless Candice!
NtheNow 1 year ago
Cities were destroyed for inhospitality (not sexuality). You must read the entire text in it's original language. Jesus himself when asked stated the sister city was destroyed but because of inhospitality. Yes, bestiality, adultery, etc. are are ungodly, and therefore sinful, but they have nothing to do with the topic. God did not create children in God's image, so they could hate or dispise themselves. The Holy Spirit continues 2 guide us. There is nothing ungodly about same-sex love.
txjockcop 1 year ago
@txjockcop When you read the scriptures around Sodom and Gomorah you will see these cities were a cesspool of sins. But homosexuality was at the top of the list. The men of the city even tried to rape the Angels that were sent by God to warn lot to leave the city because it was going to be destoryed. Lot even offered his daughters in exchange that the men of the city would not rape his guest. They refused! Man was created in God's image and homosexuality is not part of God's character!
NtheNow 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
@txjockcop Right on brother!!
LifterWill 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
@LifterWill of transcription and translation. You simply ask for the right translation. I'm talking about translations of languages, such as from Greek to English, not versions (such as KJV or NIV). And as for the women statement, well, this sums up the argument. I can see your true motives here aren't sincere. That very statement is from the Bible you are using for your personal claims. "Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man." I Corinthians 11:9. Both men and women are precious i
Addy4473 1 year ago
@LifterWill in God's eyes. There is no better sex. I was simply stating that women are a gift; precious as they are, they were are gift to us, meant to be loved and cherished. I'm not trying to bash you or hit you here, but you should seriously check your motives. Just calm down, and ask yourself; could I be wrong? And as for the Hebrew you've mentioned; again, you are challenging the authority of the translators here. If that passage were condemning homosexual prostitution or homosexual
Addy4473 1 year ago
@LifterWill pagan ritual worship, and not homosexual practice in general, I believe we would see a different passage. God is not a God of confusion. He is straight to the point. Again, I challenge you, build a positive case for homosexual practice. Show me where God condones homosexual practice. Those are the passages we want you to defend, really. Problem is, there are none. So you're stuck attacking people, commenting on posts left months ago in order to start a fight. You call us
Addy4473 1 year ago
@LifterWill fundamentalists, and try to mock our intelligence. If you really were a Christian, your comments would be motivated by love, as mine are for you. I will admit, I am angry at you for your attitude, but I do care for you. Repent, or else you will face the eternal wrath of God, my friend.
Addy4473 1 year ago
Harry seems like a very nice, loving guy who loves God, but he is simply wrong.
The biggest problem with homosexuals and their relationship with God is not their sin. Jesus paid the price for that already. but the problem is their denial of sin. Paul speaks of this over and over. It really can't be spoken of anymore plainly in the Bible the immorality of homosexuality.
ebeatworld 2 years ago
It's not spoken plainly at all in the Bible. It speaks of male rape, and women being treated as property, when is where the Sacrament of Marriage originates unfortunately, and it speaks of believing that the male seed is only in sperm, thus masterbation was through to be murder. We know a great deal more now. The Divine Holy Spirit guides us and directs us to loving relationships. - Rt Rev. Robert D. Hall, D.Min.,Ph.D.
txjockcop 1 year ago
@txjockcop This is my problem. You defenders of homosexuality always discredit everything Paul has to say. Paul condemned homosexuality several times in the NT. It's very plain. No, he wasn't saying it was worse than other sins, but he clearly stated it was a sin. Why do you think he included it in a list of adultery, swindling, and idolatry? (I'm sure you have some cheap talking points to refute that.)
Every reference to Sodom in the NT condemns their SEXUAL IMMORALITY, not just rape
ebeatworld 1 year ago
As to your third point, you're absolutely right, and in the cases that we can consider where same sex couples have their entire estates taken from their surviving partners, it often seems the motivation is spite rather than actual financial need (where instead the financial need lies with the surviving partner). The most frightening part about that? It's legal.
Vantado 2 years ago
Perhaps I'm not understanding where you're pulling this from, where does promiscuity factor in here? I've been with my partner for 3 years, he's the first person I've ever been with and hopefully the last. I do not see where in my argument you pulled promiscuity out as a defensible topic. Perhaps the "5 months ago" I wrote this comment has something to do with my confusion as well...
My points were merely examples, my partner is perfectly healthy- honestly, thank you for your concern though.
Vantado 2 years ago
Mr. Knox is twisting and stretching scripture big time. There is absolutely not one place in scripture that homosexuality is liberated, any time you see inference to homosexuality in the bible its is negative.
prn72271 2 years ago 7
@prn72271 could not have said it better myself!
NtheNow 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
@LifterWill I'm not trying to follow you around, but in one of the earlier parts Dr. Brown said that an interpretation of scripture which leads one to believe that references to homosexuality are always in the context of fertility cult worship is blatantly wrong.
someguyupnorth 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
@LifterWill For the record I wasn't following you. It was coincidence we stumbled on the same videos. I guess this is an interest for both of us.
someguyupnorth 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
@LifterWill I know about that but the act of two men and two women is sin, its is clearly stated in Romans 1.
God made it clear, one man, one women with Adam and Eve. I dont know why we try to over complicate the simple.
Its is mentioned in cult worship for it was the practice of idolatry. I ask you if it is always around Idolatry do you thinks its good? Its is something that is and was looked upon as some higher spirituality. Its simply perversion, practiced in perversion of who God is.
prn72271 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
@LifterWill II have studied the lies and the perversion that you want to make just in God eyes. The scripture says that men shouldnt even behave in an effeminate manner but you propose that two men can be together.
Anyway, I have no idea about your accusation and I dont see Mr Brown being out of his depth at all.
It does not take years of study either to know the truth aof the deception you support.
prn72271 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
@LifterWill Yes it is a waste of your time because you argue against truth. Have ever read Romans 1? It condemns those who have been given over to the sin of homosexuality.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
@LifterWill Yea, you got pretty thrashed alright. Smacked around fo sho!
gtrjunky 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago
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LifterWill 1 year ago