Grace Lutheran Church - Stability in an Unstable World

[ContingentName]

What Propers do you use? The ones from the Revised Common Lectionary? In that case, the liturgical year would be less structured, and less traditional. But I am fond of your ordinary.

[11webekl]

What is the hymn that is played around 3:30? I can't remember it but it is one of my favorites!

[futurelight]

@11webekl It's called "O For A Thousand Tongues To Sing"

[Marksnotebook]

I am always amazed when truth is told how people will reject it. They did so when Luther was rejecting the Papacy and they do it now. A real believer is the invisible believers of Christ. The building is the visible church. ONLY God knows the hearts of men. Judge not lest ye be judged. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. AND Go and sin no more.

[AnHonestChristian]

Hey everybody! Here's a video featuring our fundamentalist friend "ministercreek":

watch?v=tFX8i8RQPEU&feature=ch­annel_video_title

:-)

[Maricr1993]

Is this the Lutheran Church really? it looks like catholic mass...just saying... I want to become a Lutheran.

[womanwonder10]

@ministercreek there u go again...Yes, we're saved by the precious blood of Christ! Your self-righteous attitude is so sad! Lutherans love Christ!! Educate yourself on them first b4 you throw your rocks at them!! You know so little. And do not group them all together- there are some liberal ones that the rest of us are struggling against. Missouri Synod + Wisc. synod are strong and very Biblical. EVERY other church body has to be on guard, as we are. Satan will try to attack, but he will fail!!

[ministercreek]

Pretty building no doubt but are you saved? born again by faith in Jesus Christ ALONE????

[AnHonestChristian]

@ministercreek Your trolling never ceases! ;-)

[ministercreek]

@AnHonestChristian I am not "trolling" as you put it. Lutherans are not true Christians. Lutheranism is simply a "daughter" of the Roman Catholic Church. That is why you still hold to baptisimal regeneration and infant baptism.

[AnHonestChristian]

@ministercreek That's laughable. A church that believes sinners are justified by grace alone through faith alone by the work of Christ alone according to the Scripture alone all to God's glory alone is not a "true Christian" church? Do you believe in the Trinity? Do you read the Bible? Do you believe Christ died for sinners? If you answered yes to any of these questions, you must be a "daughter of the Roman Catholic Church" too.

[Marksnotebook]

@AnHonestChristian WE believe in the Trinity. The Lutheran Church rejects the prayers to the Virgin Mary. WE reject purgatory. WE simply believe Christ died for our sins and yes-we are justified by our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Faith without works is dead. Why must you criticize when you are ignorant of our faith?

[AnHonestChristian]

@Marksnotebook I'm a Lutheran too. I am responding to ministercreek, who thinks we Lutherans are false Christians. As you can see in my previous comment, I asked him how a church (i.e., the Lutheran Church) which believes in justification sola fide can be a false church as he claims. I think you misread/misunderstood my original comment.

[Marksnotebook]

@AnHonestChristian OK ....well It angers me that these crazy evangelicals or whatever they claim to be have the audacity to call us Lutherans heathens or not Christian. I dealt with this at a Free Methodist school and was bullied and called names because I rejected dispensationalism. Hardly Christian to bully a person or poke fun of them! WE have many hipocrites in the world today.

[AnHonestChristian]

@Marksnotebook I know a number of American evangelical folks who love to gang up on me all the time, so I can sympathize with that.

+ Jude 1:3! :-)

[Marksnotebook]

@ministercreek This is a lie in and of itself. Lutherans ARE real Christians in every sense of the word. WE reject dispensationalism---a false teaching. WE believe every word of the scriptures is and was inspired by God.

[ministercreek]

@Marksnotebook Lutherans believe every word of the Bible? Sure you do no offense. That is why you baptize infants...is this in the Bible? Actually infant baptism is a carry-over of the Roman Catholic practice that Martin Luther carried into Lutheranism. It is NOT Biblical

[AnHonestChristian]

@ministercreek ...But you can't prove that! ;-D

[Marksnotebook]

@ministercreek The bible says suffer the little children not..let them come unto me. Jesus said that himself...and go ye therefore baptizing ALL nations....that means ALL people which means ALL. Do yah get it?

[ministercreek]

looks like a Catholic Mass

[masterofmetal85]

Are all Lutheran services like the one showed here? I'm Catholic and am interested in attending a Lutheran Church but I didn't want to stray to much from what I am used to. My fiance is pentecostal and her church is extremely different from what I ve been used to

[steventhestudent]

@masterofmetal85 actually this is an odd service i've never seen it look so catholic. incense isnt commonly used.

[unkmonk1]

Why did he leave? Is he with another church or did he just get another job?

[pastortiews]

Sadly, Pr. Beecroft has left Grace Tulsa. Yet we still preach Christ Crucified in accordance with the Lutheran Confessions in a traditional liturgical setting-- complete with incense, votive candles, chanting--that reflects historic Christianity. Worship times are Sundays at 8:00 and 10:30 am, with Bible class in between. Every Wednesday night is Grace Night from 5:30-7:30 pm, with a meal, Divine Service, and Bible class. Blessings to you, sola gratia, Pastor Tiews

[NixonisLord]

What happened to your pastor? Where did he go-he's not on the website anymore?

[EstateManor]

I'm just really grateful to find LCMS-a church and people who revere God's word and are not ashamed of Jesus. In my years as an Episcopalian I have been aware of a sense of hubris in circles of the politically corect--that find faith in the biblical sense to be "quaint" they would probably say. After one Sunday when parishioners were sipping champagne out of crystal flutes I decided to start looking for what LCMS seem to have....and I am filled with delight in this Church of Faith!

[EstateManor]

I live in Oklahoma County but the turnpike ought to get me to your church in an hour!

[JesusNonEnviromental]

Wow, I hope the temple in which the Holy Ghost now dwells is more impressive than that brick building with the stained glass windows and the candle sticks and that sculpture of some man hanging on a cross type thing and the organ and incense burning and robes gives it all a great fictional appearance of holiness. God does not live in temples made with hands. Go outside and have that assembly in grass and air that God offers by Grace alone because He will certainly go with you.

[Mekletajs333]

@Olebruc

All sinners are acepted in Lutheran Church! We all need Jesus and we all have to come back from our sins!

[Packyderm]

Do you feel comfortable with a racist ethinic outreach? Whites can stand on their own I suppose? 

[NixonisLord]

@Packyderm the Missouri Synod is very white; the liberal ELCA is also very white. The to-the-Left-of-Castro Unitarians and Quakers are about as vibrantly colorful as copy paper, even after preaching about "Let's celebrate our diversity!" for forty years. Mainline Protestantism is about as well integrated as Maine or South Dakota.

[8MillaTime8]

GTFO ya damn Lutherans... you can't just make up your own shit and say your an official christian church because over time you got a few idiots to believe you. If this tells you anything, i just convinced a random person the other day that money could actually grow on a certain type of tree... point being, you can get practically anyone to believe bullshit. Lol you damn Lutheran...

[USAsoldier1955]

This is truly exemplary of our One, Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Orthodox Protestant Lutheran Christian Faith! :)

Papists, "Eastern Orthodox", Calvinists/Arminians & other Sectarians don't know what their missing!

[thepaintman80]

Come home to Rome? Why not Western Rite Orthodoxy or Continuuing Anglicanism. These Lutherans could teach Rome about orthodoxy (right glory/right belief) These crazy contemporary Masses and emergent church Masses being adopted by congregations of the Bishop of Rome are off the charts in their heterodoxy. When I left the LCMS (because of the change in worship which brought about a change in theology) I considered Rome but the East was faithful in both liturgy and theology. Rome has way to many l

[karpov89]

@thepaintman80 I would say that the crazy contemporary masses you speak of is a American phenomenon mostly.

There is really no big difference between Anglo Catholisicm and the true high church Lutherans where veneration of the saints is just normal and the Apostolic succession and historic episcopate is necessary for a valid eucharist. Unfortunately there is no place where they are not in minority.

[grandmagrumpy]

I wish you'd have subtitles. It's too hard to hear with the background music.

[Allante715]

@KikyoChanXD

Lutheranism is a direct offshoot of Catholicism so this shouldnt surprise you. Of course some Lutheran congregation adopt a low church almost Evangelical style of worship.

[karpov89]

Something I wonder why Lutheran churches in America have such strange names..why not using the names of the Apostles, the blessed Virgin, the other saints etc...or maybe the area in which the church is situated.

[dgalem]

great video,, I also love the old traditional church service,, I dislike the modern service,, this is my opinion,, but if you have to change your church then you don't believe ,,,, thanks for putting this on,,,

[Tim00777]

It is very nice to see an LCMS Lutheran Church burn incense during Divine Service and not just during Evening Prayer and I've never seen a Lutheran church use votive candles, but I'd like it if mine did.

[karpov89]

@Tim00777 Check out Solemn high mass in the Cathedral of Uppsala 5 - Eucharist for more incense during the Lutheran high mass.

[Tim00777]

@karpov89 Could you send me the link?

[karpov89]

@Tim00777 Yes of course, I sent it to your channel. 

[DreamsofMajesty]

scribd (dot) com/nb812

[LukaSerb1]

Greetings from one Christian Orthodox Serb.

[robblehood]

Ugh. "Stable Family in an Unstable World." Sounds like the illusion of infallibility is not an exclusively Roman Catholic trait. When will churches stop pretending like they're less broken, less contradictory, less sinful than the rest of the world? When will Christians be honest to themselves an to Jesus and fess up to their fragility and imperfection?

[karpov89]

It is the Church which is infallible, but only when it comes to faith, not other matters like science, politics etc. And no guarantee for stability in every family.

[runge123]

I am sure most every Lutheran Church is different....from state to state, and country to country.....there are many different variations in the United States.....LCMS, ELCA, WELCS, ELS, just to name a few....it does not mean what one practices is any more right than the other....or the traditions that are observed are any more right than the other....I am just saying that I was surprised to see how many "Catholic" traditions are practiced at Grace Lutheran in Tulsa, OK, a LCMS congregation.

[karpov89]

Well but in America I think about all Lutheran churches do not have ordained bishops, priests (not pastors) and deacons; there is only the priesthood of all believers. Am I not correct?! But the liturgy maybe be high church.

[runge123]

I do not understand what you are stating or asking.

[Norskyone]

What?

[Adeelfos]

Yes and no. Lutheran (Evangelic Catholic) ministry is in a way based on priesthood of all believers, BUT not all believers are called for ministry. Difference between Romans and Lutherans is that Romans believe that ministry is in hands of Pope - Lutheran believe that ministry is in the Word of God.

[karpov89]

Ministry in the hands of the Pope? I do not really think so, where have you read that?! But you must be in communion with him, if that is what you mean.

Anyway; according the High church lutherans, Holy Orders is a sacrament (which you can find support for in the Apology of the CA), to be a priest you have to be ordained by a bishop in Apostolic succession with S:t Peter and the first apostles, in the same way as the Anglican priests

[Adeelfos]

Yes you are correct.

By using words "hands of the Pope" I meant Apostolic continuance delivered by physical act by Roman catholic bishop (if you know what I mean?).

All lutherans consider Holy Order as a sacrament. But lutheran understanding of Apostolic succession is that congregation is free to call it's own pastors, if ordaning is made impossible by ruling church authorities against the Word of God (Luther: 'On the Councils and the Church').

[karpov89]

Jag ser att du är från Finland...and the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland has it Apostolic Succession from the Church of Sweden, which has it from a Roman Catholic bishop. Well the Lutherans of America do certainly not consider the Holy Order a sacrament, they do have no priests and no real bishops. I think for a Lutheran church, the continuity with the prerefomation Catholic Church is essential. But, yes that is succession according to the Catholic Church.

[Adeelfos]

I appreciate that you consider Swedish as a language of Finland too - correct!

I don't think that Roman Church finds ELCs of Sweden and Finland as a part of Apostolic succession. This is because of the lack of communion. Your view seems to be more familiar with Anglican ideology.

Either way, the ELC of Finland has been abandoning it's apostolic tradition and doctrine. This means the end of pure Apostolic succession also in my opinion.

[karpov89]

Yes, though I think I write in English here so the others understand (otherwise I think Swedish is better as it is a language in common). I know the Catholic church does not recognise our Succession; as the ordination was not confirmed by the Vatican and the deviation from Catholic faith.

Well as long as there are some properly ordinated clergy which holds on to the faith they are true priests. Besides I am glad that Finland may have a quite conservative Archbishop (the professor).

[Adeelfos]

"The professor" would truely be less the unfortunate choice, though I personally wait March 20th when Missionsprovinsen will ordinate bishop for us here in Finland. Many lutheran congregations (and their pastors) here will be rejoicing that day.

[karpov89]

Well but against same sex unions and blessings, what do you want more?! About woman ordination, as long as there are no woman bishops it is ok.

Missionsprovinsen is not for me as it is mostly Old church Lutheran, not so interested in the visible unity of the Church.

[Adeelfos]

It is not what I want, but what Church believes and confesses. Woman ordination is against apostolic teaching and condemned by the Word so it is not "ok". Heresy is heresy although times change.

Missionsprovinsen confesses apostolic order, so interest or not, it is visible unity.

[karpov89]

Actually it is not true that the Word condemns Woman ordination - and it is indeed correct with women ordinated deacons. But I agree as twelve apostles were only men then there should not be woman priests and bishops. But now there is no reason to have illegal ordinations just because of women priests as a priest do not ordain other priest.

What I meant was that Missionsprovinsen seem to be negative to the Catholic church and to find ways to find each other and the visible unity.

[Adeelfos]

1. Cor 14 teaches about order in the gatherings of the church (en tais ekklesiais) and includes denial of woman preaching (gynaiki lalein). Paul clearly says: "things that I write to you are the commandments of the Lord" and here's the condemnation: "If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized."

Illegal ordinations? According to which law?

[karpov89]

@Adeelfos Sermon is not a sacrament, therefore also a woman openly can teach men about the gospel, regardless of that statement.

According to church law the ordinations is illegal, unless Missionsprovinsen do not claim to be a part of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland.

[Adeelfos]

That's quite an interpretation. Where did you get that one? According to the apostle sent by the Christ woman is not allowed to teach in Church gathering. How can a person teach, if the Christ forbids it?

[karpov89]

There is nothing that says that women can't be profets, evangelists, and they can teach..that is the Christian faith. You can teach although it is not a sermon per se.

[Adeelfos]

Profets and evangelists and deacons yes. But Christian faith is based on the Bible and as you have read from 1. Corinthians, women must silent themselves in church gatherings. That is Christian faith according to apostles.

[karpov89]

@Adeelfos But everything must be interpreted in accordance with the Tradition. The belief of the Church is NOT that that passage means that women are not allowed to say things in church.

[karpov89]

Well but as far as I know in America there are no ordanied bishops like the Anglicans have and as the Scandinavian Lutherans. Although liturgy may be high church, there pastors are only a part of priesthood of all believers.

[runge123]

Also, I find it odd that the crosses in the church display Jesus crucified....shouldn't the crosses displayed be "empty" to represent our risen Lord Jesus Christ? Confusing....the Body and Blood of Jesus is presented to the alter, and not the people....shouldn't the preachers be facing the congregation?

[aznmessenjah]

We preach Christ Crucified.

[karpov89]

No the normal thing is to display the crucified Lord, but empty is also ok. The mass should preferably be celebrated ad orientem (to the east), as you pray in that direction and it is a "cosmic sign of the rising sun which symbolizes the universality of God."

[runge123]

Are we talking a Lutheran or a Catholic church? Because none of the crosses in the Lutheran Church I attend have a crucified Jesus on them....they are all empty....

[Norskyone]

That is not dogmatic. Lutherans commonly use both the crucifix and the cross (sans cristus= empty.) The "empty" cross is not a symbol of the resurrected Christ. The empty tomb is. Most Lutheran Churches in the world use the cross with the crucified Christ on it. Poor, rural churches in the upper American midwest usually used a simpe cross for reasons of ease and cost. It had nothing to do with what is more "Lutheran." Poor Catholic parishes also used a couple of crossed planks of wood.

[karpov89]

I am talking about Lutheran churches. Watch the videos Eukaristisk procession och sakramentsandakt i Vadstena 4 (Catholic eucharistic adoration but the church is Lutheran), Högmässa i Hjo kyrka på Kristi förklaringsdag 2009 del 4 - Lutheran eucharist, Lutheran eucharist - Lutherische Eucharistie - Luthérienne eukaristi, Mässa med konfirmation Stora Tuna kyrka 10 maj 2009, Högmässa i Sankta Klara Kyrka 4e påsksöndagen 2009. No empty crosses, and the cruficied or suffering Lord..

[AnimeLuver70]

@runge123 at my church the crosses have Jesus on them, we have 2 crosses with him on it

[woweixiaomiandui]

incense in a lutheran church? never seen before

[karpov89]

You can see it in my video High church lutheran vespers 1, for example. It is indeed Biblical, it is catholic and it is lutheran.

[runge123]

Neither have I.....I just can't believe it! I think the folks in the pews would either faint, or walk out...if our preacher brought out incense.....

[Norskyone]

Faint? Then they are too into what they want and out of touch with the heritage of the Lutheran Church. "Let my prayer rise before you as incense; the raising up of my hands as the evening sacrafice." -the Bible and Lutheran vespers. The "preachers" (pastors/priests) still ceremoniously raise their hands. (watch) Why do they not also use incense? BTW the incense is frankinsence and myrrh. How biblical, huh?

[dontlayeggs]

That's why I'm Lutheran...

[dimstar4now]

Judgment Day on May 21, 2011 as recently revealed in Bible. Details on linked website. NO church connection.

[runge123]

I have been a member of the Lutheran Church all of my life....while watching this video, this was the first time I have EVER seen incense used in church....it almost looks Catholic...in fact the whole presentation looks Catholic,.but then, we didn't start with imposition of ashes on Ash Wednesday until 15 years ago.....The sanctuary is gorgeous! but the pews look empty....good to see some young people in church.....

[819daisy]

Our worship is decidedly catholic and biblical. And our attendance has gone from an average of 80 to 200 in four years. The growth isn't dramatic, but steady. We have had to add an extra service. Anyway, incense is meet, right, and salutary. :)

[karpov89]

Well that is good..do you also have bells which sounds at the consecration?

[TenderTrap86]

It's great to see that mainline Protestants are returning to their High Church roots. It's the search for liturgical continuity and the history of Christianity that led many contemporary Anglicans back home, to Rome.

[choirboyfromhell1]

It's the Biretta Belt of Lutheranism! Good luck from from an (a low-church one at that) Episcopalian sick of bad liturgy and music!

[karpov89]

I have actually never seen a lutheran priest or bishop in biretta, but that is just as it has not been tradition..would be nice though.

[karpov89]

But the most important is that these pastors should go to an Episcopalian male bishop so they may have the Apostolic succession and become priests so that the eucharist can be valid.

[choirboyfromhell1]

/Uh, we've got female bishops also....and most of the (reasonable ones) don't care....

[karpov89]

Really? But there is no apostolic succession..they are just appointed, correct?!

[nuduaspiaggia]

@choirboyfromhell1 Time to stop wading and come to shore on this side of the Tiber! Come home to Rome!

[choirboyfromhell1]

@nuduaspiaggia Uh, when Rome stops discrmination and labeling sexual minorities "intrinsically disordered", I'd think about it. But they'd have to get rid of the St. Louis Jesuit songbook as well. Anglican for life.

[nuduaspiaggia]

@choirboyfromhell1 You misread the teaching. The inclination, not the person, is disordered. You must also take it in the philosophical sense, not the clinical, which means "disordered" is similar to "misdirected." We all must struggle with our passions, but first learn about Jesus, the faith, and the Church. Song is of no consequence. If you desire those Anglican traditions which are not contrary to the true faith, you may seek an Anglican Use parish or petition for an Anglican ordinariate.

[karpov89]

It is ok with both ad orientem and versus populum, but if the high altar is ad orientem, I believe it is wrong to have another one just to avoid the ad orientem.

Just one problem with this church I guess; the pastor is a pastor and not a priest, like with the Anglicans and the lutheran Churches in Scandinavia and the Baltic.

[celtusguy]

I wish all Lutheran Churches were like this one!

[stpaulphillip]

great video!

[errj45]

If only every town could have a Grace/Tulsa! Now Grace, make it better: take up the bedroom carpet, (your high church liturgies beg for the acoustics only a "Lutheran" stone floor can create),get a pipe organ, beef up the choir, and bring in Tulsa Symphony brass when possible for worship you won't forget! Hallelujah, no praise band junk here, only carpet, and real easy to pull up!

[cathofaithdef]

yOU ARE EASTERN ORTHODOX, GOOD TO HEAR I WOULD LIKE TO TALK TO YOU, I AM ROMAN CATHOLIC.

[cathofaithdef]

II am catholic. And i really apreciate that many of our catholic teachings u lutherans also have the same, that is very interesting. God bless you lutherans.

[robshannon]

@cathofaithdef Keep in mind that Luther never intended break from the Catholic Church. He only wanted to right some of the wrongs at the time.

[cathofaithdef]

@robshannon but he did. He corrupted scripture, he mocked the holy father,and he mocked God through sola fide ( faith alone) concept that is senseless.

[robshannon]

Before you say those things I suggest you pick up a Book of Concord. Read through it and see what Lutherans truly believe.

[cathofaithdef]

Book of Concord?

[robshannon]

@cathofaithdef Yes the Book of Concord. The Book of Concord is the Confessions of The Evangelical Lutheran Church (1580). It contains The Apostles Creed, The Nicene Creed, and The Athanasian Creed. The Augsburg Confession, The Smalcald Articles, the Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope, Lutherans Small Cathechism, Lutherans Large Catechism, and The Formula of Concord.

[robshannon]

@robshannon Continued: The Book of Concord is a statement of faith of what is believed, taught, and confessed by Lutherans worldwide. Inasmuch as The Book of Concord is in complete agreement with Holy Scripture,the Lutheran confessions are truly ecumenical and catholic in character.

[cathofaithdef]

@robshannon Its interesting that the Lutheran church contains many Catholic traditions like the Anglican communnity. (which soon, will be converted to Catholicism.)

[robshannon]

We must keep in mind the Catholic Church is the church which Christ started, The Lutheran Church is probably the closest in theology to the Catholic church. At one time the Catholic Church was straying to far from the Bible, and so I think the Reformation was necessary. Can you tell me why you think Sola Fide is senseless?

[robshannon]

cathofaithdef: Where arrrrrre you?

[cathofaithdef]

@robshannon NO NO NO, sola fide is not senseless. by the contrary, it is important the scripture, but not scripture alone. In Corinthians 11:2 Jesus states: Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.

[AnHonestChristian]

Visually, a very well-made video. However, I'm pretty sure Scripture and the Confessions are against the celebrant saying the Mass facing away from the people.

[gbmtmas]

Where in the Lutheran Confessions does it discuss the direction of the celebrant of the Mass at the Altar?

[AnHonestChristian]

My apologies. I did some research shortly after posting that comment. It was Luther's private opinion that the Mass should be said facing the people, but it is not in the Confessions.

[gbmtmas]

To AnHonestChristian:

No problem at all. I was simply curious.  I am Anglican, and I do know that during the early English Reformation, the arrangement of the Altar was changed to a Table format. Archbishop Laud did much to start restoring the facing East format in Anglicanism.

Just out of curiosity, might you have the reference in Luther's Works that I could find his input regarding the direction of the Altar? Would it be Table Talk.

Thanks,

[futurelight]

...cont.

Thanks for your interest and may the Lord continue to bless you.

Christian C. Tiews

Vicar

Grace Lutheran Church

[futurelight]

...cont.

In addition, Grace Tulsa has several ministries which specifically reach out to various ethnic and social groups, such as our on-going work with Kendall-Whittier, Inc, a ministry to the local, largely ethnic neighborhood. We also offer weekly Bible studies in a homeless shelter in downtown Tulsa. Finally, in cooperation with the Department of Health Services, Grace Tulsa is currently exploring ways to help disenfranchised adults complete their GED within our church facilities.

cont...

[futurelight]

Here's a response from Vicar Tiews:

Dear Mr. Biblia,

Thank you for your concern regarding minorities. This is a concern we share as well.

The Gospel knows no boundaries regarding skin color, station in life, etc. As such, the Lord has always communicated with *all* of His people through His Means of Grace, that is, through Word and Sacrament—both of which are offered at Grace Lutheran Church on a weekly basis.

cont...

[antifrituras]

@futurelight Yo soy puertorriqueño y me siento orguyoso en asistir a la Iglesia Evangélica Luterana en San Juan Puerto Rico.

[rhywe]

so futurelight, if you have never been exposed to lutheranism I can assume you do not belong to grace lutheran church. So how did you get in to making this great video of evangilizing? I still say this fellow can be gay and be lutheran. Wouldn't you agree. For we are in bondage to sin and cannot free ourselves

[futurelight]

That's right, I'm not a member of Grace, although I'm certainly not opposed to it! I met Vicar Tiews at an early-morning worship group that some friends put together. I told him how I felt God was calling me to create media that would Glorify him, and Vicar Tiews asked me if I would consider doing a promo video for Grace.

I met with Pastor Beecroft, heard about all the young people flocking to such a traditional church, and thought it was a fascinating story that deserved to be told.

[futurelight]

Perhaps the distinction I've been making is a subtle one. I think that a person that admits that he "struggles with homosexuality" should be fully accepted into any church, for that matter. It's natural for any believer to struggle with sin, as long as they recognize it's a problem and try to fight against it.

However, if someone labels themselves as "gay," they treat it not as a sinful pattern to be reformed but as a natural condition that can't be changed. cont...

[futurelight]

... cont.

As Christians, it's important to acknowledge we're sinners, but equally important to acknowledge that, through Christ, we're something more. If we believe homosexuality is a sin, we should not be satisfied with living a sinful life. We should be daily renewing our minds and breaking free from the patterns of this world (Romans 12:2).

Cont...

[futurelight]

...cont.

And, you're right, we can't free ourselves from sin. But - HORRAY! In Christ, we are free indeed!

Check out Romans 6:1-6 (ASV) (excerpted):

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein?

4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death...

6 ...our old man was crucified with him , that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin.

[rhywe]

I may be straight, but guess what, I am a covetor if I am saying that right, and an adulteress in my mind which is just as bad as physicaly doing it. Thats why we go to church my friend.

[futurelight]

I agree, rhywe. Certainly, by our own merits we are all scum in the eyes of God.

However, homosexuality is a particularly tricky sin because our culture is treating acceptance of it like some kind of civil rights movement.

cont.....

[futurelight]

....cont.

While we should be welcoming and loving towards homosexuals, one of the purposes of the church is to exhort our brothers and sisters onto the path of truth and righteousness. Even though you and I are sinners, Christ's work on the cross gave us the ability to break free from these patterns. Through prayer and study, we strive to sin less and become more like Christ, and so should all who call themselves Christians.

(This is not an official response from Grace Lutheran.)

[rhywe]

This one is to olebruc. In my opinion you would definitly be accepted at a lutheran church. and i feel that the church would feel the same way. I of course am straight but that does not make me better than you. We all have sinned and fall short to the glory of god. It really burns me up when folks single out gays and lesbians like they are scum of the earth. Those people need to take a look in the mirror. You start comming to a lutheran church you will no longer believe in evolution

[rhywe]

here in my nc town many of the younger people flock to these community churches which are very contemporary. we have even lost members to these community churches. I hate to sound selfish or biest but I hate to lose good lutheran candidates to other churches. oh well I guess I should just be glad that they are going to church somewhere. Well if I lived in tulsa I think i would definantly look into going to grace church. There seems to be alot of great poeple there.

[rhywe]

yea

[rhywe]

I am a lutheran as well. I belong to the evangelical lutheran church in america. I thought my church was formal, your missouri synod church is very catholic like. I am 26 years old and it is so nice to see so many people closer to my age interested in grace church. Folks that have nerver even been to a lutheran church.

[karpov89]

Christianus mihi nomen est, Catholicus cognomen! How lovely to see this TRUE lutheran liturgy in America, otherwise American lutheranism is really low church, not high church like this. About Mary, venerating the Mother of God, Mary is also lutheran.

[fuzytwinky]

yes you are acepted. my brother is gay and he is lutheran we acept him everyone is a child of god>

[zmanny14]

I say this because revere crucifixes and eat the host, like catholics

[zmanny14]

Looks much like a Catholic church ... what is the difference?

[futurelight]

Well, interestingly, my first exposure to Lutheranism was making this video. :-) But some of the big differences I noticed was that there's no pope, and there's not as much emphasis on praying to particular saints to be intercessors (other than Jesus). This means that there isn't any of that "Marian worship" that's so controversial amongst protestant churches.

I'm sure there are a lot more differences, though. Those with more knowledge, please feel free to chime in!

[jessep28]

Probably the best resource I would recommend if you are interested in learning about what us confessional Lutherans believe is to read the Book of Concord, specifically the Augsburg Confession plus the Small & Large Catechism (they aren't cumbersome reads). The Book of Concord available free online.

Luther never wanted to start a new church but reform the Catholic Church. That's why you don't see much of a difference between a confessional Lutheran church and Catholic Church.

[karpov89]

Well you clearly see a difference if not the lutheran church is high church. For example the use of chasubles to be very rare in lutheran America, also adoration of the blessed Virgin and other saints. Christianus mihi nomen est, catholicus cognomen.

[jessep28]

My views lie on the "high church" side for sure. I think a lot of North American Lutherans disregard a lot of the high church Lutheran practices in order to distinguish themselves from Roman Catholics. For example, many Lutherans don't make the sign of the cross. In addition, many Lutheran perishes don't celebrate the Eucharist every week, including my church, which I don't understand since both practices are encouraged in the Catechism.

[karpov89]

That is too bad..the sign of the cross is just normal..also to celebrate the mass, not service with communion..using the term altar...and that the eucharist indeed is the one and only sacrifice that we are bringing forth and receiving..

[guitarslim56]

That's so true--"perishes."

[jdmillerok]

The Lord is at work in and through Grace Lutheran! How grateful I am for the fatihfulness and fruitfulness of this community of Christ here in Tulsa! May the Lord continue to bless your pastor, your vicar and your congregation!

James D. Miller, Pastor, First Presbyterian Church, Tulsa

[lonemooseranch]

This captures so very well what Grace Lutheran Church, Tulsa is about - it's amazing, Austin! Thank you!

[futurelight]

You're welcome! It's absolutely amazing to see what God has done with this video! Thank you to everyone who's been passing it around. 1,613 views in 2 days! I thought we were just making a film that would help young people who were looking for a church in Tulsa. Clearly God has plans we knew nothing about!

[sdbruns]

Nice!!

[ptmccain]

Very nicely done. Congratulations

[pigactor]

I agree. This is great stuff!

[meditationessacrae]

Wow! That is an amazing video!

[bobwaters]

Glorious!

[819daisy]

Awesome! It is wonderful to see a church that doesn't cater to the consumerism of our society!

[willcweedon]

Absolutely OUTSTANDING!