Digital Photocopiers Loaded With Secrets

[sttm2]

uhg, modern photocopiers have hard drives in them because they're computers not a simple device like when they were first invented. that's why you can do things like pre scan your documents before copying them.

it's not a a secret that there's hard drives in them, and yes if you photocopy your passport in some 7-11 there might be some microscopic chance that someone is going to try to steal your identity from that alone, but a fly can also fart herpes in your mouth so just live your life.

[thomastvivlarenDOTse]

@sttm2 The point is not the complexity (or lack thereof) of the inner workings of a photocopier but what it is used for. The prime purpose is - of course - to copy stuff. The issue arises when that "copying stuff" is done in a manner lacking all sorts of thinking as well as responsibility in regards to privacy and data management.

Simply put, there is absolutely no defense for storing already copied stuff on the hard-drive just because there is a hard-drive present.

[whotaughtyou]

XM.?/

SAFECRACKER

[kcj1993]

Linux FTW.

[steffanpiper]

ummm FDISK is free

[whotaughtyou]

abc

[Xuvial]

I was literally like "what the heck is a hard drive doing in there???"

I seriously did NOT know they even came with hard drives and stored everything you copied....

[supernobama2]

you cant touch me Hack me if you can noobs hack me if you can 97.121.33.241

[Voxnulla]

@supernobama2 Why would anybody go to fucking Kuna Idaho to rummage through your garbage and follow you to school/work in order to get your sorry ass information ? I doubt that you really are from Kuna or that you gave some other guys IP, but who cares really. A youtube ranting loser ? Nothing to gain from hacking your dumb ass.

[ChicagoMickey2]

$500?, lol. The guy must be high.

[RichMatarese]

Physical destruction of the hard drive would render a digital copier completely unusable. And it's not necessary. Programs to delete and then securely over-write sectors on computer hard drives (and on the older "floppy" disks) have been available as freeware or shareware for more than a decade, with the over-write features meeting the standards of the National Security Agency. $500 for this kind of "feature" from Sharp? Gimme a break!

[RichMatarese]

Physical destruction of the hard drive would render a digital copier completely unusable. And it's not necessary. Programs to delete and then securely over-write sectors on computer hard drives (and on the older "floppy" disks) have been available as freeware or shareware for more than a decade, with the over-write features meeting the standards of the National Security Agency. $500 for this kind of "feature" from Sharp? Gimme a break!

[misskam100]

This is the number one concern for 80% of our customers looking to sell on a pre-owned machine.

[dgnorthrup]

can anyone tell me why the government hasn't stoped the manufacturers from

putting the harddrives in the copiers ? and why are the harddrives in them in the first place? another example of our government hard at work; protecting its citizens.

we need a government that cares more for the people who pay their too high saleries. not the crooks we have now.

[FirstPrelude00]

@dgnorthrup

Uh, copiers need a hard drive in order to work. Derp. An image doesn't just magically replicate itself, it has to be saved to the hard drive and then printed back out. It works the exact same way as a scanning an image into the computer and then printing it out without the intermediate steps.

[havemofun]

Many people don't really understand the enormity of the threat of identity theft, the costs in losses, recovery or restoration of their identity, once discovered. Unfortunately, it seems that only those who have experienced it seem to take it seriously, which of course is too late. Listen up everyone, your information is ALREADY out there. It's only a matter of time before you're hit.

[Fil0403]

Just as with PCs, always make sure to format, replace, remove, or destroy any hard drives before disposing of the device.

[yehsrehj]

Smashing the hard drive sounds good except for the threat of shared copiers, connected through the network, all it takes is for someone to hack into your network and then hack your copier, then what do you do?

[bobal0o]

If this was a hard-hitting news story, they would have answered the most important question:

Did they recover any scans of boobs and asses?

[kutepi4791]

It's a good thing we can have our own copiers now pretty cheap.

[dgnorthrup]

@kutepi4791 ; our home copiers are not the problem, it's the copiers at businesses where they take your drivers lic. ect. and make copies of them.

[MrPisster]

Brought to you by Modern Technology (TM)!

"No need to thank us, you'll be screaming our name later."

[fifthindependent]

Isn't that like closing the gate after the cow done got out!

[AaronSarkisian]

AHHH!!!

[AaronSarkisian]

AHHH!!!

[woodss82]

i once had a copier in for repairs, and purchased a copier a few years back which stored faxes of the same model the one in for repairs had faxes stored from a doctors office and the owner wanted a fax of hers the new owner so I printed all the faxes it had, doing this the machine spit out pages and pages of medical faxes. Ealier this year, I purchased a Fuji Xerox DCC400, and I had to clean its memory and drive of junk from the previous owner its disgusting.

[nchuenleong]

Why the heck the photocopiers do not clean up the memory automatically after making the copy??? What is the reason to store it in hard-drive? To me this is the photocopier's design flaw

[shortylishi]

Wow!!! Thanks for the info. But this might actually be givin criminals an idea.

[KathyHagle]

You need to be careful what you copy and how it is done. This is shocking!

[ElBarto3131]

why the fuck does a copier need a hard drive in the first place?????

[woodss82]

@ElBarto3131

[nutzw1]

just use a magnet

[thnksmarter]

Obviously, the Affinity Health Plan company didn't realize what it was doing until it was made aware of its violations against private information. This would put the main responsibility or lack thereof on the copier manufacturers. Not properly educating the public on their machines and safety measures against information theft is not high on their list of priorities, but "selling" the machines are. This is what you would call MASS NEGLIGENCE.

[scrantonsux]

Scary !!!!

[piersonjared]

This is why you need the Identity Theft Shield with a Pre-Paid Legal Plan to protect you when your identity is stolen. It's not a matter of if but when your identity is stolen. Pre-Paid Legal assigns a private investigator to restore your identity. Contact me for more information.

[TheUnipop]

wow i did not know this ..awesome i wonder if the are sata?

[TortureBot]

@TheUnipop The one at 57 seconds is... says right on the drive "Serial ATA".

[757mech1]

why does it need a hard drive at all? Its just a copier...

[jackspar11111]

The cheapest way to solve this problem is to place the hard drive behind a small door that can be opened with a key. Then the seller of these used coppiers can remove it and smash it with a hammer. You cannot read a bent disc. Cost ...Approx. $ 6.00 for a hammer

[TheGrayman1234]

Easy fix for this is when you get rid of the copier. You pull the hard drive and beat it with a sledge hammer. Hard drive platters are damaged and unusable. End of story.

[thomastvivlarenDOTse]

@TheGrayman1234 From the owner's perspective, e.g. a company, that is almost true. From the user's perspective, e.g. the employees, the problem is still very real...

My use of the word "almost" above relates to the issue of not everything copied should be available for everyone's eyes. Think owner copies, people/employee with access to HD access info...

[mschwartz76]

@TheGrayman1234

unfortunately the "customer" does not own the copier in most cases because in this industry 9 out of 10 times the machines are leased, and must be returned to a leasing company. If you destroy the drive you must then replace it with another one..i in addition it must be reformatted to the specifications of the machine. A little bit more technical than a sledge hammer.

[TheGrayman1234]

@mschwartz76 Actually that is stupidity on their part. I own my copiers.

[mschwartz76]

@TheGrayman1234 bottom line is that this entire investigation was focused on lease returns, so i'm not sure why any comment you have is relevant considering you buy your machines cause you say leasing is "stupid"... how about you consider compaies or organizations other than your mom and pop business that may have 80-100 machines worth $1,000,000.

[TheGrayman1234]

@mschwartz76 Ahh, good point the company that I represent only has about 67 so I am sure another 13 or so will make all the difference in the world. Anyways I concede the point that the vid was on the topic of lease. However, once again this is just an overkill on the subject. The fix is still simple. Wipe the drive with rewrite software and get the leasing company to reload the needed formatting and software if needed. You can have it written into your leasing contract if needed. Simple enough.

[mschwartz76]

@TheGrayman1234

67 copiers? In that case i have a strong feeling that you have no idea what you're talking about with regard to owning the machines, and I would bet the company you "represent" leases the MFP's. If you were knowledgable on this subject in any way you know that owning that many devices makes absolutely zero sense.

[TheGrayman1234]

@mschwartz76 Sorry, it is you who are mistaken. We OWN our copiers. We still pay service contracts to keep them running, but they are "OWNED." We got tired of leasing them for years (and paying service contracts) only to pay additional payments when we turned them back in. It costs less to buy them in the long run. Yes, these are MFP's: copier, printer, fax and network scanning capable.

[mschwartz76]

@TheGrayman1234 sounds good GrayGuy. if thats a publicly held company i'd like to know which because i would definately not hold stock in it if your finance department concluded that owning 67 machines is more cost effective.

[TheGrayman1234]

@mschwartz76 Thanks MissSwitches76. A 131 year old company still going forward. Guess our publicly traded company calculators are better than yours.

[mschwartz76]

@TheGrayman1234 we own our own company. your humor is so terrible it makes me laugh. Oldmin

[TheGrayman1234]

@mschwartz76 Just matching poor wit for poor wit with that Grayguy remark.

[scrantonsux]

whos gonna buy it then????

these enities that are getting rid of um want to sell um for top dollar

they dont give a $hit if your info is on it !!!

[lindahartford1]

@TheGrayman1234 Or perhaps another option would be to run a powerful magnet over it.

[soccerdad1150]

wow...I can get a copier for about $300? nice

[OeranBe]

Amazing

[catherinealt]

This is down right scary!

[scifiwritir]

Good grief! This is scary!

[revdgarland]

Scary! and preventable! We are insane to ignore this!

[baccaruda1970]

Why would they even put a hard drive on a copy machine? How stupid. And they charge you extra for a program that deletes the files off the hard drive that shouldn't be there in the first place?

[danalwdillon]

amazing no law suits have occured as a result...good info for ALL TO LOOK AT

[KhunJim]

why are the drives there in the first place, what is the purpose, who is the moron who suggested putting them in

[dougsa]

Just how many copies of my butt are out there?

[Fil0403]

@dougsa I don't know, but you sure need to learn how to use a copier.

[auggiedoggie1962]

Amazing how your personal info can be stolen...even legally

[scottybeegood]

Nothing is EVER PRIVATE s our society today...got that ? if not

GET IT

[courtneyboh]

the scary thing about this is, it's not a place like Kinko's where YOU have gone to make a copy. It's a company that copied your personal information. So, if someone does steal your indenity this way. There no way to track how it happened!!!!!!!!!

makes me think about all the times I've gone to Kinko's to copy my personal stuff...yikes

[1234bonesrules]

this is really scary to find out!!! i dnt think i want to use a photocopier again!!!! that really freaks me out!!

[670Kiester]

Absolutely ...staggering.

Btw - Steve Gibson mentioned this on Security Now

[thomastvivlarenDOTse]

@670Kiester Yes, he referred to the CBS footage if my memory is not failing me. I like S.N. btw. :) Would really like to get hold of the old shows hosted by Laporte (and occasionally feauturing Gibson too).

[clayto1332]

That is just crazy

[Freredical]

why is the "optional" security software not mandatory and included in the machine's overall price??!! when the decision was made to install hard drives in 2002 - the price went up and lots of hard drives were sold - so the copy companies should have taken "basic responsibility" and installed the erasing software as a user option from day one! they would have sold more drives AND more software (and software updates)... ALSO, why the hell are there hard drives in photo copiers anyway!!

[thomastvivlarenDOTse]

@Freredical Exactly. In the clip - if my memory is not failing me - one of the executives interviewed regarding the erasing functionality does it in terms of a feature à la "you can get it for 500 USD". The ignorance of that person is astounding. I say, let's spread the message of this throughout the globe in order to make these copy-machine providers go bankrupt or enable the erase feature by default.

[Fil0403]

@Freredical To cache the files to be printed.

[heluvatoughsucka]

@Freredical - Absolutely agree! They give the user something that he does not understand, does not want or perhaps is not even aware of , charge more money for that, and then charge an additional $500 to clean up the mess it leaves behind. In any case, the "optional" security software should be included, but no, let's charge $500 for three lines of code.

[haji727]

What a wake up calling here? I never knew this. This is so scary and now I see how easy it is for one's identity to be stolen.

[BFoltyn7]

"Come on back!" LOL

[apparition2]

On Sharp Imagers test command #44 prints a data report of the machines copy, print and fax histories for each client's account, plus detailed trouble histories.

A lot of customers like banks, mortgage companies, public schools, hospitals, etc. with digital networks will upgrade their HDs for bigger ones, especially these days. It's not unusual for batch consignments of old HDs being recycled with overseas vendors.

Another sobering symptom of modern "security".

[mychokehold]

Oh wow, ONLY an extra $500 to be able to "erase" the copied data. How much are they charging to put the hard drive in? And what BS is the whole "we're warning our consumers." Why don't you just NOT put it in, in the first place. This is ridiculous. And only 60%? I bet it's a lot higher than that.

[MinniePearlJam]

@mychokehold the copier companies aren't putting hard drives in merely for the hell of it. They serve a purpose. It is no more the manufacturer's fault that you throw out or sale a copier without clearing the hard drive than it would be if you gave away a computer with all your personal information still on it.

[hortmom121]

@MinniePearlJam However, it seems there would be a responsibility to inform the consumer - the retail purchaser of the machine - that it contains a hard drive, and will store the information that is sent to it. I wonder if the user manuals and marketing documentation refer to this. I've never noticed. I've always assumed that these copiers used a memory like ram, that would only "access" the data, not "store" it.

[cdimmm]

Hey CBS, how about a story about the 24/7 military chemtrail operations..

[thomastvivlarenDOTse]

@WEREFEAT Yes, it would be really interesting to hear the reason for introducing such a "feature".

[LucidDreamTricks]

Holy smokes!

[Zutant]

Most Copier manufactures now offer a Dept. of Defense level of security which over writes the hard drive with 0 and 1, numerous times. Now the only problem the people purchasing the copiers for themselves are willing to pay for the option.

[Zutant]

oops.. i meant They aren't willing to pay

[logick2]

The only way to securely delete a hard drive is to smash it up. I don't think a magnetic degausser would even work. Overwriting can be defeated with a good forensic program. The government CRAY computers and the NSA can hack into anything in very short time. There is no such thing as ''privacy'' in today's world.

[mscir]

What is the forensic software that's available free on the internet that they mentioned? I believe these programs read files that have been deleted and even overwritten in some cases, the physical areas of the hard drive that store 0's or 1's are wider than the actual are that is written to, and I believe these programs can read these areas.

[mcvolta6]

@mscir i know, right? where is that forensic software? should they have told us that?

[jaimie8888]

Do home copiers or all-in-one machines also do this?

When you sell or dispose of your own, is there a copy of every scan hidden in it like the ones in this video?

[strongbowist]

I work in IT, but had no idea of this. I think I might steal the HD from my office copier if I ever leave the job lol....no seriously though this is kinda scary as I would have copied a lot of personal letters, statements etc in the past few years.

[thomastvivlarenDOTse]

@strongbowist Let's say, you are probably not alone... :) What is really scary is how many organisations, companies, authorities etc handling really sensitive data (not to say that other private data should be disrespected of course) are probably also unaware of this.

The case for open-source solutions grows stronger by the minute. Being that the real problem with this case is not really that documents are preserved on the hard-drives of the copiers but the lack of knowledge about it.

[ElJoeyJojo]

@thomastvivlarenDOTse i think as IT people we should steal the hard drives and then blackmale our employers :D

[ElJoeyJojo]

@thomastvivlarenDOTse i think as IT people we should steal the hard drives and then blackmale our employers :D

[ElJoeyJojo]

@thomastvivlarenDOTse i think as IT people we should steal the hard drives and then blackmale our employers :D

[ElJoeyJojo]

@thomastvivlarenDOTse i think as IT people we should steal the hard drives and then blackmale our employers :D

[thomastvivlarenDOTse]

@ElJoeyJojo Imagine getting hold of copiers from hospitals and the one's sitting at political parties... If for nothing else, democracy would benefit in the latter case considering how crummy politics of today has become. :)

[mandoist]

@strongbowist

If you are really an IT employee...please tell me where you got your training. I want to make sure I don't go near that place!

[mechredd]

@strongbowist I've been in net security and have never been told of this, it was never mentioned in any college class, job, or cert exam that I have taken. I have heard of them getting hacked so that documents can get intercepted, but never anything about them storing tens of thousands of documents on an internal HD. A printer/copier doesn't need anywhere need that much storage.

[Algebrator]

More likely more BS!

[tubiephrank0707]

Thanks for sharing - Data Encryption and Flush Options should be standard on all such copiers.

[thomastvivlarenDOTse]

@tubiephrank0707 Agreed! One can also question the need for storing the documents in the first place. I can understand temporarily storing large documents for processing the document in order to print it...but permanently? *insane*

[Kestrel987]

@thomastvivlarenDOTse it's not a question of "temporarily" or "permanently" recording anything, once it's recorded, it's there unless you record something over it. It's just like your computer's hard drive. You do know that deleting something from the hard drive (or flash drive or diskette) doesn't actually make it go away entirely, you have to overwrite it to make it go away permanently.

[thomastvivlarenDOTse]

@Kestrel987 Excuse my simplified comment. My line of thinking was to understand why, in the first place, a "feature" as the one presented in the clip was ever introduced. Hence, the sloppy use of "temporarily" vs "permanently".

In that context, a first step would be to always delete (or "delete" if you prefer) the "temporarily" stored document. A second approach would be to go DBAN (or other file-level specific approach) to be on the safe side and respecting potentially sensitive data.

[olimar2001]

@thomastvivlarenDOTse

It was introduced because including enough RAM to print huge amounts of photos or documents is more expensive than including a Hard Drive. For example, lets say you wanted to print 6 GB's of pictures. To do this, you could do 1 of 3 things:

1. Spool the images one at a time off the computer, printing as they arrive

2. Store the images in RAM (requires 6 GB of RAM)

3. Store images on a Hard Drive

Of these options, Hard Drive is the cheapest and quickest.

[thomastvivlarenDOTse]

@olimar2001 Yes, that is what I reckoned was the reason for having them installed in the first place. Still doesn't explain why the documents are kept lying about though... Integrity and privacy? Who gives a BEEEP when money is to be made...

[123col321]

@olimar2001 but there is no reson it should stay there it should be programed to erase it self after say a hour!!!