Loyalty: Katherine of Aragon & Jane Seymour

[chykim1]

two of my favorite queens...as i think about it, they did have quite a few things in common... janes my alltime favorite..

[ZZZANNAMARIYZZZ]

Really Jane Seymour was very loyalty to Katherine even after death of Katherine. Jane was very kind to Mary Tudor and really cared about her

[EmzLuvzCatz]

I love how when everyone argues about who their favourite queen is, Anne of Lleves never gets mentioned.. xD

[EmzLuvzCatz]

@EmzLuvzCatz *Cleves

[tiffcharmed1277]

I wanted 2 ask this question what do u think jane s would do had henry 8th show interest 2 her when she was katherine A lady in waiting; do u think she would be his mistress or do u think she would push katherine off the throne just like she did with anne when she was queen? Since u think "she loyal to katherine "like u say!

[LNor19]

@tiffcharmed1277

Jane came to court after Henry had engaged in a relationship to AB. Also, Jane had no issues with Katharine, so I highly doubt Jane would've done anything to offend her. She refused to be Henry's mistress with AB, one could easily say she would've done the same in the situation arose in some alternate timeline with KoA. And as she supported Katharine and Mary's rights to the throne, it's even more unlikely she'd "push katherine off the throne."

[tiffcharmed1277]

@LNor19 All I wanted 2 know was do u think jane would be henry mistress had he took interest in her when katherine was still queen or do u think she would had said no 2 him like she did when he is with anne. what is your opinion on the matter? What choice do u think jane would had made in this situation?

[LeN0Re18]

i love katherine of aragon, is my favorite queen

[donnylovesayesha1]

queens and noble women in those days wore clothes like nuns lol

[LostYesterday]

Lovely :) Two of my favourite Queens.

[janknuckey]

How these women still fascinate us! I wonder why? I guess their stories belong to the very first soap opera, writ large!

As for the historians, I feel that Fraser presents us with a far less biased account than Weir, who seems to constantly want to pigeon hole each wife into a neat little category..a very naive and short-sighted approach for any student of personal history.

These six women shared one crucial characteristic: they were all complex and multifaceted. They were human beings !

[winxdancer]

what is the name of the song

[kragey]

@winxdancer "The Flower Duet"

[goatsinherkitchen]

@winxdancer It is a bit from delibes "lakme" an opera. Agreed, a beautiful piece.

[goatsinherkitchen]

@winxdancer its a bit from Delibes opera "Lakme". A very beautiful piece

[TudorsGossipGirlfan]

My 2 fav Queens!!!!:D nice 2 see a vid JUST about them 2:D

[QueenCatherinefan]

Yes, my favorites queens too!

[angeldream2]

Fantastic vid, where did you find all the black & white drawings of them.

[gboleyn]

I think it's a little trite to say that all AB did was "scream and throw tantrums." A more nuanced reading of the accounts of men like Gile de la Pommeraye, Lancelot de Carles, Simon Grynee and a little less of the hostile Chapuys would show that she was also charming and graceful, if egotistical and neurotic. It's also projection to say that just because Jane wasn't loud and callous, doesn't mean she was unintelligent and talentless. That's true. But it also doesn't mean that she was!

[LNor19]

I didn't say that was all AB did, she promoted education and was concerned with charitable contributions. But she did have a temper that showed a less savoury side of her.

Fraser stresses Jane's intelligence.

[AmazingAesa]

lol.. " Janes intelligence"

She could only read and write in English, couldnt play music or anything else.

[peacedesertrose]

@AmazingAesa just because somebody could not play music, does not mean they are any less intelligent, it is a talent. jane was actually very talented at needle work, but what i'm saying is maybe she wasn't interested in music and dancing, unlike anne who may not have enjoyed needlework.

[rubyflipper]

Beautiful, thank you!

[katharinethequene]

I was just reading something saying that Henry VII said that he would give half his Kingdom if Catherine proved to have the talents of her mother - seen as this definatly ahppened and she was compared to her many times I think Henry should have offered her half of England in the divorce settlements he offered - It would only have been fair! Lol

[gboleyn]

I don't think you can say Jane Seymour was "loyal," just because she didn't do anything against Katherine. A quality isn't defined by an absence of wrongdoing. For example, Jane didn't go into exile with Katherine in 1531 like some of the other ladies did. She went back to her family in Suffolk and then she happily returned to Court when Katherine's replacement, Anne Boleyn, offered her a place. I think comparing Katherine and Jane is like comparing a fine bottle of red wine to a carton of milk

[LNor19]

Whether Jane wanted to go home or stay with Katharine is not known, it was most likely her family's desicion. Jane had been an attendent along side her brother and father until 1532, when the Seymours returned to Wolfhall, it was there, in 1535, that Henry wished Jane to come to court, not Anne and not "happily".

I'd hardly call Jane a "carton of milk", but you clearly have a distaste of Jane.

I stand by my research, Jane was a loyal lady to Katharine.

[gboleyn]

Yes, I do have a distaste for Jane Seymour - but not your video. People praise Jane when she did nothing. Beyond having a title, she was talentless and vapid; an insipid emotional doormat. Even her friends didn't praise her specifically until she was dead! Her silence gives people the ability to imagine she was heroic. There isn't a single quote from Jane Seymour on the subject of Katherine of Aragon, or one recorded act that she ever performed for her at inconvenience or risk to herself.

[LNor19]

I suggest reading Antonia Fraser's book, she sheds a fair amount of light on who Jane Seymour was, as does Alison Weir. You'll find she wasn't "vapid" or "talentless".

[gboleyn]

I've read them both. Although, like you, neither give any example of Jane actually being loyal to Katherine of Aragon. Moreover, Weir allows her obvious antipathy for Anne Boleyn to colour her unduly preferential for Jane Seymour. You could read 'Divorced Beheaded Survived,' David Starkey's 'Six Wives' or ANY of the primary sources to see if any of them support your rose-tinted view of Jane Seymour. She wasn't a bad woman, but neither was she a model of bravery or loyalty as you imagine.

[LNor19]

I never said they give an example of Jane's loyalty, you simply assumed. From what I've read has lead me to believe, as do others, much of history is speculation.

Of course, another AB fan of completely dismisses Weir b/c she doesn't make Anne out to be a "courageous martyr", but I supposes Ive's bias doesn't bother you?

I have read Starkey, btw, he mainly doesn't write a lot on Jane, however he does point how she indeed spoke out on matters, and tried, though unsucessfully, to influence HR.--

[YeOldeTune]

I'm a fan of Anne, I've read Weir and I like many things that she says of Anne. That's the Anne I like in some aspects!

[LNor19]

I've heard a lot AB fans say that about Weir. Weir does show Anne's dark side, something I don't like about her, but it intrigues many others. She was a fiery woman with a loud personality who suffered a terrible fate.

[gboleyn]

I agree with you that Anne's personality is something vivid enough to make us like/dislike her as people did in her own time.

[LNor19]

Furthermore, I do not have a "rose-tinted" view of Jane...I actually have a view on her, unlike many who simply assume she was doormat. The more I read about her, the more I learn she did what she could within the means of keeping her head upon her shoulders.

So, no I'm not "imagining" what I see in Jane Seymour, and forgive me for saying so, but it seems only those who favour AB tend to be bother by the idea of Jane as anything other than meek.

[YeOldeTune]

Weir anipathy for Anne? I don't think so.

[gboleyn]

In her author's note to "The Six Wives of Henry VIII" (1991), Weir summarises Anne as 'an ambitious adventuress with a penchant for vengeance.' And in a 2001 interview, she said 'I do not really like Anne Boleyn as an individual.' On the subject of Jane, there is no firm evidence that it was she who manipulated the King rather than those around her and survival for a period of 18 months (in which she did practically nothing of her own initiative) is not SUFFICIENT proof of intelligence or talent

[LNor19]

I feel the same way about AB ironically, and that was before I even picked up Weir's book.

In regards to Jane, both Weir, Fraser, and Starkey talk about her intelligence and her talent, of which she did have. Jane just didn't scream and throw tantrums and threaten people. She took a more simple approach...that helped keep her head on her shoulders.

Just because Jane was loud & callous doesn't mean she was unintelligent or talentless.

[gboleyn]

I agree with you that Weir who is not pro-Anne and Fraser, who is (she has a portrait of Anne on the wall of her study), are both also pro-Jane. However, David Starkey definitely is not. In his 2004 book 'Six Wives,' he refers to her as: "a woman of no family, no beauty, no talent and perhaps not much reputation." He then goes to suggest it is "a mystery" how Jane married "a man who had already been married to two such extraordinary women as Catherine and Anne?"

[daydaysince1994]

@LNor19 anne boleyn was very strong willed and didn't listen to the advice of those around her which cost her life but as far as the temper tantrums go she was giving Henry a taste of his own medicine, she is the opposite of jane seymour, she refused to be submissive. she believed in being true to herself and didn't care what people thought of her. Back then everyone looked out for their own interests.

[YeOldeTune]

Yes, I read what Weir summarises "an ambitious adventuress", that a side I like of Anne. An ambitious adventuress, I like that, so exciting.

[AnaliaHyrule]

Alison Weir isn't exactly an objective source. Her bias towards Anne Boleyn comes through the entire book. I'd recommend "Divorced, Beheaded, Survived" for a different light on all six wives.

[LNor19]

"Divorced, Beheaded, Survived", is a feminist interpretation, I have ordered it, but haven't read it yet.

With respect, every author has a bias, that's why I pointed out Ives. Yes, his book is about AB, but when it comes to KoA & JS, I just have to say I find his crush on AB to shine through, but his bias against JS & KoA is fine, but Weir's bias against AB is like some kind of sin!? Sorry, that to me is a great double standard.

[katharinethequene]

I agree, I hate when people think it's fine to have a bias for Anne but if you dare like Catharine well then it's off with your head(excuse the pun!)

[AnaliaHyrule]

Weir was supposed to be writing a book about all six wives and not take sides. THAT'S what I find repulsive.

[YeOldeTune]

What does the word "bias" mean? Is it to be against a person?

[LNor19]

Bias is a term used to describe a tendency or preference towards a particular perspective, ideology or result, especially when the tendency interferes with the ability to be impartial, unprejudiced, or objective.

[YeOldeTune]

Thank you very much for the explanation

[YeOldeTune]

I agree with you. She was not talentless. She had enough tact to be lady-in-waiting of two Queens without falling from favour in fromt of the King. Of course her family advised her, but she was clever enough to follow those advices.

[YeOldeTune]

I think Jane was not talentless. To know how to stay in the winner side, to manipulate the King, and other facts show that she was intelligent and talented.

[AnaliaHyrule]

Agreed! Jane cannot be compared to Katharine- Katharine had a personality!

[YeOldeTune]

I think Jane (or her family) was intelligent in this point. She was a lady-in-waiting to Katherine and then to Anne. To be in the safe side was not an easy task in Tudor court. Under her meek appearance a clever woman was hidden.

[YeOldeTune]

Jane did not go into exile with Catherine. With this you see she was clever and knew to stay in the winner side. I prefer Jane over Catherine.

[lemondropeseverus]

really good! two great queens!

[LNor19]

In regards to Katherine, Jane was completely loyal. As for Jane to a lady for Anne, Jane never publically disgraced or undermined her lady, so she was also loyal to Anne in her duties.

[LNor19]

Jane did not "steal" Anne's husband. Henry did the dirty work or getting rid of Anne. Jane was sent away from court, and kept out of Anne's downfall. The Court didn't like Anne, and when Henry gained a interest in Jane, they jumped on it.

[HistoryGirl345]

How so?

[E123Tudor]

Just the fact that you said Jane "stole" him away. Not trying to start an argument here...but I don't think that was the case.

[HistoryGirl345]

Well obviously it was Henry who was perusing Jane and Jane's family who where pushing her, but Jane still agreed to marry him. Jane fans say that she didn't steal him (which I know was a bad choice of words on my part) but you can bet if you asked them did Anne steal Henry from Katherine most will say yes and they where in a very similar situation.

[E123Tudor]

No I agree and that would be hypocritical of me to say different.

But it just bugs me when people say it as if she had a choice. This is the 16th century we're talking about; women didn't have rights. If Henry wanted to persue her and she refused that could've been dangerous for her & her family. It's the same with both of them, if Anne was the 3rd she wouldn't have said no either; even if she wanted to. It most definitley wasn't about choice 'cause at first Anne wanted to marry someone else.

[HistoryGirl345]

I agree completely. women didn't have that many rights, and really have a choice in those days, in fact its seems the only way to avoid marriage with Henry is too sleep with him. So therefore I'll retract my previous statement, and I don't hate Jane now, then again I often change my mind with her, at first she was my favourite wife, then I hated her, and now I like her again.

[E123Tudor]

Yeah i'm like that with Kitty (liking her then hating her), especially after watching the Tudors 3 finale...

[HistoryGirl345]

I haven't seen that yet lol but from what I've seen I don't think I'm going to like her in the tudors.

[E123Tudor]

Well from the interviews i've seen Hirst doesn't really like her; so i'm not suprised he's going with the 'hoochie' type Kitty. Hopefully season 4 will bring a different side to her, otherwise I doubt I will feel as sorry for her as I should.

She is really annoying in this episode, so be warned lol.

[YeOldeTune]

A person does not steal another person. Persons are not objects that can be stolen. Neither Anne nor Jane stole Henry from anyone. Henry chose them to get married with them.

[AnaliaHyrule]

I agree :)

[AnaliaHyrule]

can you do Anne of Cleves and Catherine Parr?

[YeOldeTune]

5 Stars! A wonderful video.

My fave Queen is Anne Boleyn but Jane was the wife fit for Henry.

Can you do a vid like this of Anne Boleyn and Catherine Howard, the two beheaded Queens?

[LNor19]

You know, I've been thinking about doing one of Anne and Kathryn, so yes! But there are so little images of Kathryn even less than Jane, so it'll be short, is that okay?

[YeOldeTune]

Sure!

[ForEverSnoopy]

What a wonderful tribute to two fair queens.

[AnaliaHyrule]

THIS is off topic- but are there any surviving portraits of catherine howard?

[LNor19]

Watch my Kathryn Howard video, I explain that in the comments.

[gapeachjessica]

Lovely video! Katharine is my favorite Tudor queen, but Jane is a close second.. I think it's so wonderful how she restored Mary back into the succession and attempted to repair the relationship with her father.

[LNor19]

Yeah, that and Mary realised it was best that she side with Jane, by looking at her options Mary realized that Jane was her best bet and she gained a kind stepmother and a place back in Henry's favour because of it.

[Gabbycrts]

I love both of these Queens! I can tell you really worked hard on this one, and I love it. 5 Stars from me!

[Gabbycrts]

By the way. I love the pictures you chose.

[katharinethequene]

Love it!!!!

[Ladyjaxs]

Great vid, great pictures, love both Katharine and Jane!

[DarkLadyAthena1]

well done. good images of choice