Ed Sisson May 2006: part 1 of 6

[iknovate]

Dave: Nutjob? That's pretty much what the Jewish Leadership said of Jesus because of the threat he posed to their capitalization of religious practice. That didn't make it factual.

Is your capitalization of scientific practice perhaps threatened?

This is a legal issue, not a course of opinion/popularity. Try to stick to the facts.

Have you seen Expelled? Can you differentiate between the tenets of Intelligent Design and Creationism?

Offer something concrete, not just random blatherings.

[BeauLeeman]

"Any lawyer, ANY lawyer who can graduate from law school knows this. This guy knows this and just pushing an agenda."

His agenda seems to be the pursuit of science, sans politics and bias. He knows that legal paths may be one way to achieve it. But yes, it's sad that it's come to this.

"Think I'm wrong?"

I do.

"Point to one shred ... of the science ... that supports ID."

Complexity, synergy of systems, aesthetic features that offer no repro- advantage. Sexual reproduction. Four enough?

[BeauLeeman]

"[ID] IS creationism ... zero science."

What science links purported macro- events to random mutants as the source of novelty to be selected from? How do you test that hypothesis empirically?

Where multiple steps are required for a complex organ, how w/each step offer a repro- advantage? Who would she mate with to propogate that trait? It would likely regress.

"It's an argument from ... incredulity."

Rather, it's an argument from simple logic. Apparent design connotes actual design.

[Gusdaberean]

ID is not creationism rather it is identifiably anti-creationism. Some refer to it as thiestic evolution. Creationism espouses a 10,000 year framework which ID rejects.

[BeauLeeman]

"ID is not creationism rather it is identifiably anti-creationism. Some refer to it as th[ei]stic evolution. Creationism espouses a 10,000 year framework which ID rejects."

Granted, and the point being that to research design inferences and ID validations requires empirically based evidences, and must exclude scriptural citations qualify to as science. That doesn't preclude having a personal creationist belief.

Barbara Forrest (NCSE) is one of the ones foisting the term ID(C), and falsely so.

[rbohlin]

As is usually the case, receiving more information clears up a lot of phony accusations. Very helpful to learn there may have been a 3 year contract. Dr. Crocker's rights were violated, plain and simple and GMU appears to covering up.

[busymartian]

She should have peed on a student's leg and told him it was raining. That would have made more sense.

[Alternate2GOP]

I guess that comment applies directly to you.

[ThatOneQ]

Teaching religion in schools is a disgusting things.

Leave that for a hobby at home, not in a place of education.

[ThrakhathOfKilrah]

Dr Crocker or Dr Crook?

I'm so happy they got rid of that nutcase.

[busymartian]

Tenured and tenure track faculty make up only 31.9% of university teaching jobs in the United States, so Crocker's situation was not unusual. In fact, overlapping with her contract at GMU, she held another contract position to teach at Northern Virginia Community College.

[AuShawster]

If DNA is allowed into a court room to exonerate or persecute a defendant the same way DNA blue print historical smoking gun points to the FACT of the origins of species,

"Creation and Intelligent Design are religion not science and do not belong in a classroom."

See US Federal Court ruling - Dover PA.

[Alternate2GOP]

"See US Federal Court ruling - Dover PA."

See "Traipsing into Evolution," Responses to Barbara Forrester on Evolution news, and let's not forget the analysis which revealed that 90% of Judge Jones ruling was nothing more then just cut and paste from a flawed ACLU fact sheet.

[AuShawster]

Alternate2GOP Why don't you ask your imaginary friend Jesus if men were planted here like flowers ir if we evolved. Surely He will tell you the way it really is.

[Alternate2GOP]

What does Jesus have to do with this?

It really gets annoying when Darwinists pollute the discussion with talks of religion (whether it be theirs or someone else's).

[kenthovindspimp]

intelligent design IS creationism and contains zero science. It's an argument from personal incredulity. Any lawyer, ANY lawyer who can graduate from law school knows this. This guy knows this and just pushing an agenda. It's sad.

Think I'm wrong?

Point to one shred, ONE SHRED, of "the science" he refers to that supports ID.  ONE SHRED.

It's a sham and pathetic.

[DaveGrossmanSoloBass]

Caroline Crocker wasn't expelled, she flunked. She didn't do her job. She tried to interject her own personal religious beliefs where they didn't belong.

[Alternate2GOP]

Proof please?

[DaveGrossmanSoloBass]

This is well documented. Check out her Wikipedia article for references. Also, google "Ode to Caroline Crocker". She's a certifiable nutjob and what happened to her was completely justified.

[Alternate2GOP]

Don't get me started with wikipedia.

I want real genuine PROOF that what she was teaching was religion in the classroom.

[DaveGrossmanSoloBass]

I didn't say she was teaching religion so don't try to change my argument to something else and think you've won if I cannot provide proof of your straw man argument.

She taught her religious belief that life was intelligently designed. She admits as much on her own web site. She got exactly what she deserved.

End of discussion.

[Alternate2GOP]

"I didn't say she was teaching religion so don't try to change my argument to something else and think you've won if I cannot provide proof of your straw man argument."

Remember this statement you made?

"She tried to interject her own personal religious beliefs where they didn't belong."

That was your argument (first comment on the vid), don't try and change that.

"She taught her religious belief that life was intelligently designed."

How might one construe this as a religious belief?

[DaveGrossmanSoloBass]

Caroline Crocker and nearly every other intelligent design proponent out there believes that it is their God that intelligently designed life. In their own forums, they are not shy about saying so. Because of legal failures on their part, those who want to teach Intelligent Design cannot legally say it is their God who did the designing. Since Kitzmiller v. Dover, they can't even promote an anonymous designer. So, instead, they cry "academic freedom" to try to circumvent the legal obstacles.

[Alternate2GOP]

I agreed with what you said until the following...

"Because of legal failures on their part, those who want to teach Intelligent Design cannot legally say it is their God who did the designing."

Big distinction needs to be made here. While many of the proponents publicly acknowledge that they believe the designing force is a god, this is irrelevant. What does matter is if students are being taught specifically that the designing force must be God, otherwise no legal problems persist.

[kenthovindspimp]

ALTERNATE2GOP STATES THIS on part 2:

"We'll just let onlookers of this discourse decide for that." (on who won the debate)"

and

"Seem to be asking that a little soon, but now that you've asked, it's in what is called a brain. One which in homosapiens is larger then that of apes, chimps, etc."

HIS EVIDENCE against TOE IS DIFFERENT BRAIN SIZE?

WOW!!!

WOW, WOW, WOW, HE IS ONE DENSE MOTHER FUCKER!

Please check fundies say the darndest things for this delicious morsel to be added.

[Alternate2GOP]

"Since Kitzmiller v. Dover, they can't even promote an anonymous designer."

They seem to be doing a pretty good job with that lately.

"So, instead, they cry "academic freedom" to try to circumvent the legal obstacles."

No, they cry academic freedom to prevent people from being persecuted for presenting evidence that drifts from the status quo.

[kenthovindspimp]

ALTERNATE2GOP STATES THIS on part 2:

"We'll just let onlookers of this discourse decide for that." (on who won the debate)"

and

"Seem to be asking that a little soon, but now that you've asked, it's in what is called a brain. One which in homosapiens is larger then that of apes, chimps, etc."

HIS EVIDENCE against TOE IS DIFFERENT BRAIN SIZE?

WOW!!!

WOW, WOW, WOW, HI IS ONE DENSE MOTHER FUCKER!

Please check fundies say the darndest things for this delicious morsel to be added.