Retriever training Forcing on real birds.mpg

[Dawgmanevang]

For anyone who believes a "positive-only" approach would tend to yield superior results, I welcome someone taking a fire-breathing, high powered retriever like this one and fully training them for fieldwork. Title them MH (Master Hunter), or HRCH (Hunting Retriever Champion), or much better an FC-AFC, or even QAA (Qualified All-age). Post up your videos to provide contrast. I'll be glad to see it!

Evan

[musicofnote1]

@Dawgmanevang - "positive only" is the phony term coined by those who do not understand what negative punishment is. they show their ignorance of Learning Theory (Pavlov, thorndike, Wtson, Skinner and the entire ethologists like Miklosi, Hare & Co.). In that way they don't have to actually contend with other people doing other dog sport who reach as high a level without pain, fear or intimidation. Such as Steve White training police dogs in WA. Or denise Fenzi doing Obedience. Or Robert Milner.

[musicofnote1]

@musicofnote1 And the list goes on. What the compulsiontists DO have is a comfortable way to "train" in which they do not need to read or comprehend anything "new" (like Pavlov or Skinner - gasp). Moreover, they don't need any real sense of ethics or morals. Just hurt whatever or whoever that is not doing what you want until they comply. Just what we need to teach our children.

[burito987]

Evan your knowledge and others lack of knowledge cracks me up. Sorry im commenting on a lot of your videos but i love them all. Rituci i totally agree with Evan but he was a lot nicer than i would have been. Thank you Evan for being a great trainer and spreading your knowledge to the retriever training community.

[Rituci]

1/5. The dog gets a lot of leash corrections even though he obeys, but neither time when he walks backwards instead of sitting as told. The first time he is corrected after he eventually stops walking backwards and does sit, which may explain why he does it again when he again doesn’t get corrected for it but gets a heel command instead. The next correction yanks his foot up in the air so he drops the bird in fighting to keep balance.

[Dawgmanevang]

@Rituci Well, that was quite an essay. It was an aweful lot of condemnation without a single question. This is clearly an area of fieldwork you do not understand - neither the training, nor the requirements made of a working retriever. You, as yet, know absolutely notihng of the dog, nor his history, his personality, or his traits. In other words, you've based you lengthy bashing on virtually nothing beyond your assumption. If you desire anyknowledge about this my email is rushcreekpress@aol.com

[AgilityLover4Life]

I respect your knowledge and training methods, but I can't help wondering whether positive based training methods would be a better alternatives to using so much force and negativity. Have you ever known anyone to train their working retrievers using "unconventional methods" such as clicker training or positive reinforcement? Or is that not common at all?

[BoscoandKoda]

The dog seems to be consistently "chewing" on the bumpers/bird, isn't that something not wanted? My biggest concern is the dog is constantly getting corrected into places for the "heel" where shouldn't it already know heel before started retrieving? Or shouldn't the dog be at the level where they do not need a correction? Correcting a dog every single time seems a little overboard to me...

[Dawgmanevang]

This is one segment of several skills combined into the skill set called "Force Fetch". It's just one small, but important step. For a more overall view of what retrievers do check some of our other videos, like Gradient Blinds.

Evan

[BoscoandKoda]

@Dawgmanevang

Was that to me? Because it did not really answer my questions..I will be sure to check out that video later...

I have used force fetch on 3 dogs (i do obedience), and they have great retrieves so I understand the process- though maybe it is different for field work? But the chewing we teach is wrong for the very begining so it does not become a habit like it seems from that dog. on the video.

[Dawgmanevang]

@BoscoandKoda First of all, thanks for asking. You're the first person - lately at least - who has had sufficient intellectual curiosity and integrity to ask a question. So, secondly, "No" that post was not in reply to your question. It was a general statement.

Yes, that dog was chronic about that from the time we got him. He's a very nice dog, loaded with talent and prey drive. But his orininal owner allowed that mouth to get out of control, so we had to really go to great lengths to (cont.)

[Dawgmanevang]

@BoscoandKoda (cont.) ...quiet his mouth down and stabilize it. Many viewers of this clip get so caught up in those secondary issues that they're totally lost in the actual procedure. He's long since been well controlled, and is now my prime demo dog at all our seminars.

You are quite right about chewing. It's a major issue for some dogs, and one that must be overcome. This may take a lot of text to explain, but he was thoroughly obedience trained prior to beginning FF. But the pressures...

[Dawgmanevang]

@BoscoandKoda ...of FF often momentarily destabilize a dog with a major problem like this, at least until the issue is overcome. This session contains a great deal to learn from, but the trianer must understand what's happening, and what is important in order to prioritize the events.

Are you with me so far?

[BoscoandKoda]

@Dawgmanevang

Yes- i understand so far.

I guess in my mind I would firstly fix the issue of mouthing before putting anything else to it (retrieving alot of things in order.) and allow to get away with it- though I do not/have not seen the dog personally so I'm sure you were doing other things away from the camera to not allow the mouthing so much.

My other question is the whole "heel" position. Every time the dog comes in it is corrected. Instead of correcting every time is he not taught (c

[BoscoandKoda]

@dawgmanevang

the correct position? Or is there explanation to the correcting every time?

[Dawgmanevang]

@BoscoandKoda The therapy worked well for him, and I believe it was because of all the foundational training that preceeded force to pile. We then put it all together time and time again under duress, where he had to perform mulple tasks together - the fully-trained retrieve, and that allowed me to make real time corrections for the chronic mouth issue. He is now a polished performer, and very stylish. As I said earlier, there is much more to this than meets the eye. Thanks for asking.

Evan

[agility4me444]

I don't understand why so much negativity is needed. If you had a really sensitive dog, I'm sure you would have to take a different approach, right? I do herding with my dogs (where positive based training isn't popular either), but my dogs do better without the negative reinforcement. I understand that retrievers are hardy dogs, but so are herding dogs... I just would like to know the reasoning behind this I guess.

[Dawgmanevang]

@agility4me444 Have you attended a hunt test or field trial for retrievers? It would be eye opening. Please do that, and bring all the questions you like. My email is rushcreekpress@aol.com

Evan

[agility4me444]

@Dawgmanevang I think I already asked a few questions in my previous post. I know of a few retriever savvy people who lean more toward the positive based training side. I have also spoken with someone who is active in hunt/ field and the only "correction" she uses is a second try. The dog was titled by 9 months, so obviously it worked to some degree. I would just like to know your personal reason for correction so I can build my own opinion.

[Dawgmanevang]

@agility4me444 As I've reviewed your posts, I noted only one question: "If you had a really sensitive dog, I'm sure you would have to take a different approach, right?" The answer is 'maybe', depending on how severe the problem, and how sensitive is "sensitive"? 

[LexiBuddyAgility]

@Dawgmanevang ROFL! Well I'm 13 and pretty successful in agility, so I'm not that stupid, I mean all you do is teach your dogs to retrieve, umm thats like super-duper easy!:D

[Dawgmanevang]

@LexiBuddyAgility I'm 63 and have over 30 years of success at a level of training I dare say you've never seen - even a glimpse of. Keep learning. Go to a field trial or hunt test for retrievers with an open mind. Try to imagine what it's like to train dogs at that level. "The process of education is a transformation from cock-sure ignorance to thoughtful uncertainty". Dr. Kendall McNabney

[Dawgmanevang]

@pvojtas Actually, this is dog training, rather than merely dog bribing. To train working retrievers to their potential, and to bring them to a state of reliability under high distraction requires staging the training in a sequence of skills, and ever higher challenges.

It's very easy to criticize what you do not understand, or have working knowledge of. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Live dangerously; get a little knowledge.

Evan Graham

[AgilityLover94]

@Dawgmanevang Evan,

My neighbor and good friend has a trained field lab. I watched him and helped him from the day he started. He has never HIT his dog before. And that dog can find his decoy in a 2 acre park with a kids party going on. There is no need for that abuse. Yes hitting your dog and pulling hard on a prong collar is abuse. You can really hurt that puppy. Please stop taking your anger out on your dogs.

[Dawgmanevang]

@AgilityLover94 I can see you're actually concerned. But I can also see that you're reading this situation completely backwards. What is more disconcerting is that you have only condemnation, but no questions. Learning occurs the other way around. This session does not contain abuse. But feel free to contact me if you ever actully what to know what's going on. Good luck.

[Dawgmanevang]

NOTE: This video is only a portion of a much larger process, during which high standards are built. Proofing procedures permeate finished level retriever training, of which there is far more than meets the eye - especially the eye of newer/less experienced trainers. Honest questions are welcomed.

Evan Graham