@lllannallll On the issue of "FRUIT", fruit is not speaking in tongues,raising the dead, Ect. Fruits of the spirit are meekness,gentleness,kindness, Ect. Who exactly did you learn the Bible from?
@USAFreedomReform "On the issue of "FRUIT", fruit is not speaking in tongues,raising the dead, Ect." A "fruit" is merely a "resulting action or attribute" - and certainly speaking in tongues, raising the dead, and the like were and would STILL be a result of Holy Spirit baptism.
@lllannallll "and certainly speaking in tongues,raising the dead,and the like were and would STILL be a result of Holy Spirit baptism
That is dependent upon what GOD wants. Even when Jesus Said it,it was a power given by the HOLY GHOST to be able to do those things, and was the decision of the Holy Ghost who had it and who did not.
If there is a need for that today(which I think there should be)the HOLY SPIRIT will decide when and where it will be used.
@USAFreedomReform "Fruits of the spirit are meekness,gentleness,kindness," LOL. Don't tell me you are gonna claim Holy Spirit baptism, and the only "fruits" or "results" you can come up with are INVISIBLE and UNPROVEABLE. You're not like the apostles in Acts 2 or Cornelius in Acts 10, are you?
@lllannallll "Don't tell me you are gonna claim Holy Spirit baptism, and the only "fruits" or "results" you can come up with are INVISIBLE and UNPROVEABLE"
Is meekness,gentleness,kindness INVISABLE and UNPROVEABLE? I can see when a person is kind,gentle,meek.
@lllannallll You are not in authority to tell me if I have the Holy Spirit or not.When you put youself in that place you are making yourself "a god" anf placing judgement on me. But I can tell what you are by the "FRUIT" you bear.
@USAFreedomReform "You are not in authority to tell me if I have the Holy Spirit or not." I didn't say that: I said you do not have the GIFT of the Holy Spirit spoken of in Acts 2: 38, nor are you "Spirit-baptized." Reception of the gift of the Spirit and Spirit baptism = miraculous manifestions, and you don't have any.
@USAFreedomReform "But I can tell what you are by the "FRUIT" you bear." Same here. And anyone who claims Spirit baptism like Peter and Paul oughta TALK like Peter and Paul, and you never read about them saying, "Nothing you can do, all you have to do is" or claiming that the element and administrator of Spirit baptism are the SAME THING.
@lllannallll "claiming that the element and administrator of Spirit baptism are the SAME THING"
BOTH are JESUS CHRIST? With GOD all things ALL THINGS are possible !!
I won't talk exactly like Peter or Paul but, each person has a little different way to explain things or put things into words. Don't fault me for that, that is just being HUMAN.
@USAFreedomReform "But I can tell what you are by the "FRUIT" you bear." CERTAINLY! And the "fruit" of Holy Spirit baptism was miracles! Tongue-speaking, dead-raising, snake-bitten miracles, without fail. Mark 16: 9-20 says, "they SHALL" and they DID, but you DON'T. So the fruit ain't there. That's not "judgement" - that's common sense. I'd like to see on what grounds you deny the testimonials for witch doctors - you couldn't.
@USAFreedomReform " But I was baptised in water as a symbol of my following in the footsteps of Jesus Christ. "
You say you had Holy Spirit baptism , but you were baptized in water because you needed a symbol ? For WHAT ? ?? If you truly had already recieved the Holy Spirit you would know that the recieving of it was all the proof you needed
@USAFreedomreform "So, Jesus has died and is risen now , so Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to us as a gift through being baptised in the HOLY SPIRIT that cleans the soul , not the flesh."
Dont keep repeating that same baloney that Baptism of the Holy Spirit comes by belief and has replaced water baptism. Recieving of the Holy Spirit comes AFTER baptism . We see this in Acts 19
@USAFreedomReform - "Why then did John the baptist (the forerunner of Jesus Christ)say this:
Mar 1:7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. "
At the time that John was baptizing, Jesus had not yet died and sent the Holy Spirit. Johns baptism did not confer the Holy Spirit.Baptism after Jesus death could.
So, Jesus has died and is risen now , so Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to us as a gift through being baptised in the HOLY SPIRIT that cleans the soul , not the flesh. The water cleans the flesh but can not clean the soul. Water can't even take away the sins of the FLESH but the HOLY SPIRIT that dwells within the gifted person does clean the soul and flesh. Thats what I get from this scripture and the HOLY SPIRIT within me.
@USAFreedomReform "Who came up with that phrase of being baptised in "water" in the name of the Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost? "
Um , lets see now - John the baptist baptized people in Water, Jesus was Baptized in Water, his Apostles baptized people in Water while Jesus was alive and continued to do so after His death. We see the Apostles still continuing Water baptism even after they had the Holy Spirit descend on them.Now just what would make anyone think We need water for Baptism ???
@USAFreedomReform "@Bobsblues Found it but no mention of "WATER" Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen."
It doesnt have to mention water , because THAT was what Baptism was .
@lllannallll "is your position that Matt 28: 19,20 do not refer to water baptism, but to Spirit baptism"
You got it. It is Spiritual Baptism.
In an earlier statement I made where I was refering to Jesus receiving the HOLY SPIRIT after being baptised in water.
Jesus kept that Holy Spirit until he died on the cross.(He gave up the Ghost) After he was risen and came and stayed for the (was it 40 days)and after he told them he would send a comforter when he ascended into Heaven.
@USAFreedomReform "Why then did John the baptist say, "but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost." Because the promise was YET FUTURE at that time. NOW it is fulfilled and has BEEN fulfilled for over 1900 years. Holy Spirit baptism, with accompanying miracles and inspiration, are not NECESSARY now. We have the written, confirmed, perfect word of God.
@lllannallll "Holy Spirit baptism,with accompanying miracles and inspiration, are not NECESSARY now"
So you don't think the Holy Spirit is as real today as it was over 1900 years ago. Well if you speak against the Holy Spirit, the comforter that Jesus spoke of in Jhn 14:16,26 15:26 , &16:7 then you will not be forgiven in the life or the next life that follows. (Mat 12:32& Mark 3:29)
@USAFreedomReform "Well if you speak against the Holy Spirit" Yeah, and if you attribute certain activities to the Spirit TODAY, you are guilty of an anachronism, and bound to make other errors in connection with it. Did Jesus promise the baptism of the Spirit to EVERY SAVED PERSON on a PERPETUAL BASIS? I think not.
@USAFreedomReform Here's an example: you said that if you didnt apprehend the meaning of a verse (inspired by the Spirit), why, then you pray for the Spirit to reveal the meaning that the Spirit failed to make clear in the first place. So the Spirit illuminates the Spirit's own production which aid you in understanding it. Does that make a lick of sense? You'd put dictionaries out of business - why have one?
2 Peter Chapter 1:vers.4-10 These are the things we need to add to or faith. From Genesis to Revelation God has all ways gave the world two options live Godly are die spiritually.
@USAFreedomReform "Which baptism,the one of the flesh (water) ,or the one of the Spirit (HOLY GHOST)?" What about "baptism by fire" and "baptism of sufferings". You left those out, but no matter, there is ONE baptism today. There was ONE by AD 62 or 63 when Ephesians was penned. "One Lord, one faith, one baptism ... " Now. How many do YOU practice? Two? Five? Twenty? Positively amazing. Paul says, "there is one", and here you are, saying otherwise.
@lllannallll "Paul says,"there is one",and here you are,saying otherwise"
I don't know where you learned to read,but I never said anything like that.I was asking a question of which baptism was being discussed.Why should I have even asked.You only believe in the baptism of the flesh(water).How can baptising the flesh help the spirit?What you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.Will you be flesh or spirit in heaven? The real baptism that counts *is* the baptism by the Holy Spirit.
@USAFreedomReform "I don't know where you learned to read,but I never said anything like that." Sure you did. You've spoken of people correctly receiving Holy Spirit baptism today, and people correctly receiving water baptism today. That's two. It is most certainly true that you never flat-out answered, "How many baptisms are there today?" You've been asked several times to no avail.
@lllannallll "Paul says,"there is one",and here you are,saying otherwise"
Are you going to rely on what a man said (PAUL) or are you going to rely on what GOD/Jesus Christ said.
I guess since you go by what the disciples said over what Jesus Christ said,you will have to change the name of the CoC to the Church of PAUL,PETER,JAMES,JOHN, etc, etc.
Remember this,the books in the NT after the gospels&Rev. were letters to churchs of that day,written years after the events took place.
@USAFreedomReform "Are you going to rely on what a man said (PAUL) or are you going to rely on what GOD/Jesus Christ said." How about I rely on what BOTH said and not try to force a contradiction between the two? I think I'll take into consideration WHEN they were said. The promise of the Holy Spirit, along with Holy Spirit baptism, was (1) made, (2) fulfilled, and (3) terminated.
@lllannallll This is reply to your use of water to gain salvation instead of the Holy Spirit.
Mar 3:29,30 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.
You use of a term describing a sexual function is going overboard, don't you think.
@USAFreedomReform "You use of a term describing a sexual function is going overboard, don't you think." No, I thought it was pretty good. One way you seek to "prove" the miraculous indwelling is you "feel" it. Well, I could care less about that sort of proof. I can find the same "proof" for patent medicines, witch doctors, and Jack Daniels.
@lllannallll "Well, I could care less about that sort of proof. I can find the same "proof" for patent medicines,witch doctors,and Jack Daniels"
So you don't believe that when the HOLY SPIRIT dwells within you,you KNOW it?
You don't believe when a person calls on the name of Jesus Christ,repents and baptised by the HOLY SPIRIT that the OLD MAN has at that point died to sin and the NEW MAN is what you become.
Yet even if we are not in full obedience to GOD, we can still SIN.
@USAFreedomReform "So you don't believe that when the HOLY SPIRIT dwells within you,you KNOW it?" I believe you would KNOW it because the Bible INFORMS you of it - not because of some mysterious, indescribable, nebulous "feeling." I can prove Islam, Buddism, and witch doctorism by "testimonies" of their "feelings." That which proves too much proves nothing - and your "feelings" are proving nothing.
@USAFreedomReform "You don't believe when a person calls on the name of Jesus Christ,repents and baptised by the HOLY SPIRIT" Certainly not! In the first place, you aren't baptized in the Holy Spirit anyway. In the second place, you are invoking the name of the Lord in water baptism. I repeat: you have not one iota of evidence that you are baptized in the Holy Spirit ... three naughts, two ciphers, and a zero.
@USAFreedomReform "This is reply to your use of water to gain salvation instead of the Holy Spirit." And you refer to blasphemy against the Spirit. Well, did Peter blaspheme the Spirit in Acts 2: 38 or I Pet 3: 21? What about Luke in recording Ananias in Acts 22: 16? Paul, when he obeyed Ananias?
@lllannallll "Well, did Peter blaspheme the Spirit in Acts 2: 38 or I Pet 3: 21? What about Luke in recording Ananias in Acts 22: 16? Paul,when he obeyed Ananias"
Acts 2:38 Peter never said anything about being baptised by water.(WHERE WAS PETER AT WHEN HE SAID THIS)
1 Pet 3:21 Peter was talking about the "GOOD CONSCIENCE" toward GOD. What is your conscience?
Paul was giving an account of what had happened to him on the road to Damascus and telling those people these things,
@USAFreedomReform "1 Pet 3:21 Peter was talking about the "GOOD CONSCIENCE" That's not ALL he talked about is it? "The antitype whereunto even baptism doth also now save us." The whole passage is a type-antitype analogy between the flood waters and water baptism. And the fact is: Peter said that, in some sense, baptism DOES also now save us.
@USAFreedomReform "Acts 2:38 Peter never said anything about being baptised by water." Sure he did. One doesn't "get baptized in the Spirit" IN THE NAME - by the authority - of Jesus Christ, and after he is baptized in the Spirit, then receive the gift of the Spirit. But they WERE baptized in the name of the Sacred Three in water, and afterwards RECEIVED the gift of the Spirit.
@USAFreedomReform "(WHERE WAS PETER AT WHEN HE SAID THIS?" I do not know for sure, and you don't either - so why ask it? He was in a ROOM. Other people were PRESENT. He was in a HOUSE. He was in JERUSALEM. What do you want, an address? And, pray tell, what further difference does it make whether he was inside or outside, really?
Now when Peter was preaching to them in a ROOM,HOUSE,JERUSALEM,with people PRESENT, was there water deep enough in the ROOM to be baptized in?
The scripture never said they left the ROOM to be baptized.
Peter said, REPENT and be BAPTISED EVERY ONE OF YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS and ye shall receive the gift of the HOLY GHOST.
@USAFreedomReform "The scripture never said they left the ROOM to be baptized." LOL! So what? They did! Your position is that they were told to "be Spirit-baptized in the name of Jesus Christ". Well, why? "... and ye shall receive the gift of the Spirit." Ummm, can you tell us the difference between the "gift of the Spirit" and "Spirit baptism"?
Without Peter having to say be Baptized in the Holy Spirit and then recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit, he just said Repent, and be baptized(meaning in the Holy Spirit).
There was no mention of a water hole in the UPPER ROOM.
@lllannallll Peter never mentions being baptized here.
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
@lllannallll Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
So when you were saved, DID YOU RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST?
You talk you like you don't have the gift of the Holy Ghost.
@USAFreedomReform "You talk you like you don't have the gift of the Holy Ghost." Absolutely I do not. Nor do you. By the way, Joel's prophesy in Acts DOES have a time-limit on it. "It shall come to pass in the last days." Last days of what? Of the Jewish economy. Jerusalem fell in AD70, and Spirit baptism fell with it.
@USAFreedomReform ""Jerusalem fell in AD70, and Spirit baptism fell with it" WHERE IS THAT IN SCRIPTURE? Joel 2 and Acts 2, among other places. Now, according to Acts 8 and Acts 19, exactly how were the gifts, the manifestations of the Spirit, imparted? By the laying on of apostles' hands - and all the apostles, save one, died before Jerusalem fell. The "last days" of the Jewish economy.
@lllannallll "Jerusalem fell in AD70, and Spirit baptism fell with it"
Even if it did,that would not eliminate this verse:
Act 2:39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call.
but this was 33 ad and the moon never turned to blood and the sun was not darkened . That was talking of the time when jesus was to return to take his church.
@lllannallll "You talk you like you don't have the gift of the Holy Ghost." Absolutely I do not"
According to your understanding,don't you receive the gift of the Holy Spirit when you are baptized in WATER? Or is it that you just think you are saved and that is as far as it goes.Hey, I up to learn from this exchange as well as teach a little along the way. I know the teaching of the CoC is far different than other body of Jesus Christ teaching.I want to know what you know.
@USAFreedomReform "Paul was giving an account of what had happened to him on the road to Damascus." He was already in Damascus when he was told to "arise and be baptized." Doesn't matter: to receive this "baptism", Paul had to GET UP. I surmise that one could get Holy Spirit baptism SITTING DOWN. So Paul was told, "Get up... be baptized...wash away thy sins..invoking the name of the Lord."
@lllannallll Paul was giving an account of what had happened to him on the road to Damascus and telling those people these things,and then Acts 22:16 , he said and you hear all that I have said and you TARRY! Arise and be baptised,calling on the name of the LORD.(WHERE WAS PAUL WHEN HE TOLD THOSE THIS)
@USAFreedomReform Question: "Are you going to rely on what a man said (PAUL) or are you going to rely on what GOD/Jesus Christ said." LOL It's not "either, or" so the query is misworded. But since you think Jesus and Paul are contradictory, I simply asked, "Was Paul wrong?" ... "Did Paul misrepresent?" ... "Did Paul lie about it?" You never answered that.
You must have a kindergarten brain. Paul didn't lie, he was giving his understanding of the facts.
Keep in mind how and when these letteres were written,it was years after the actual event. My faith leads me to believe that the minds of these men through the HS were sharp.
The only way we can know that these letters that these men wrote could be totaly accurate in every fashion is if they paralled in every way with the teachings of JESUS.
@USAFreedomReform "Paul didn't lie, he was giving his understanding of the facts." Yeah, ok, and, as per you, Paul might very well have MISUNDERSTOOD certain facts which in turn caused him to ACCIDENTALLY reveal .. umm ... something less that the actual truth ... so it all comes out in the wash, huh? Alright, did Paul reveal the TRUTH about water baptism or did he CONTRADICT Jesus?
@USAFreedomReform "Keep in mind how and when these letteres were written" OK, and you keep in mind that these letters were written by men inspired of God who were not dependant upon being "pretty sharp", as you say. What the deal is IS: you, in fact, think Paul, Luke, and Peter DID contradict Jesus at certain points, so it's your task to SPOT their errors. No, sir, Paul and Peter ELABORATED on Jesus' teachings.
@USAFreedomReform "Oh so now the the fancy word for opinion is ELABORATE !" Matt 16: 13: the coming of the Spirit following the ascension of Christ was for the PURPOSE of guiding the apostles into "all truth." And, by the say, it seems that EVERY TEACHING of Jesus in the Bible was written by man, and what did you say? "MANS WAYS ARE EVIL WAYS"?
@lllannallll "OK, and you keep in mind that these letters were written by men inspired of God who were not dependant upon being "pretty sharp", as you say"
Remember who these letter were written TOO. It was those churchs of the day in each or the Cities mentioned in the name of the letter. Was their a letter to YOU?
@USAFreedomReform Now we have it: Acts 2: 38 and Acts 22: 16 are "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" by Peter and Ananias, as recounted by Paul, and recorded by Luke. So all four are GUILTY. USAFreedom: "If one believes that Jesus saves at the point of baptism, he's blasphemed. If one believes, Jesus saves at the point of a dead faith, he's in good shape." I don't think you have a very good point on Spirit blasphemy.
@lllannallll "If one believes that Jesus saves at the point of baptism( interject water here), he's blasphemed. If one believes, Jesus saves at the point of a dead faith(interject WHAT !! what is DEAD FAITH?), he's in good shape." I don't think you have a very good point on Spirit blasphemy"
THIS IS NOT WHAT I SAID **AT ALL** !! You are twisting things around that I say and making it fit what you want to think I have said.
@lllannallll Question for discovery: What do you think about the reference to the HOLY GHOST in some places and the HOLY SPIRIT in other places? Are these the same or 2 in one? I ask because I take for granted that these are the same. I would like your opinion on this.
@USAFreedomReform Alright, I've told you where Peter WAS. You tell me this: does "be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Spirit" refer to "be Holy Ghost-baptized in the name of Jesus Christ ... so you can receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"? If so, that's a strange "take" on a passage, I'd say - seems to be very reduntant, too. Anyway, there you are.
@USAFreedomReform "Where was Peter? I missed it. Is it on this page?" I'll just repeat it: he was in Jerusalem, he was in a building, he was in a house, there was an area for sitting. Anything more is speculation.
@USAFreedomReform "The real baptism that counts *is* the baptism by the Holy Spirit." "There is one baptism." "Arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of Lord." That wasn't Spirit baptism. And if there is Spirit baptism today, then why don't you do away with water baptism so you won't contradict Paul in Eph 4: 4-6.
@lllannallll "Arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins,calling on the name of Lord"
SO you are telling me that the outer baptising of the body in water washes the SINS of the inner soul away? Do you see how utterly foolish this sounds?
Listen, I don't want to take anything away from you,because if this is what you believe then so be it.
Heres how you must think. It must be on a spiritual level and not of the flesh.
@USAFreedomReform You ask: "Which baptism,the one of the flesh (water) ,or the one of the Spirit (HOLY GHOST)?" Well, I am quite sure Paul said, circa AD 63, "There is one baptism" I have repeatedly asked you how many you think there are today, and you know what? You're silent on it, about like you are on "nothing you can do, all you have to do is...."
@lllannallll "There is one baptism" I have repeatedly asked you how many you think there are today, and you know what?"
There is only one baptism(of the HOLY SPIRIT). IF you are baptised in the HOLY SPIRIT you receive the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT. Being baptised in water on gets you WET. It is an earthly ritual that JOHN the Baptist started and Jesus Approved of at the time. Even GOD approved of Jesus being baptised. The HOLY SPIRIT came after Jesus ascended and is the comforter.
@lllannallll "Paul says,"there is one",and here you are,saying otherwise"
Another thought, Do you have FAITH,that you CAN be SAVED without the use of a physical means,which is WATER. In other words , FAITH is what you have without seeing,so the baptism by the HOLY SPIRIT can not be seen. However, if you are baptised in water,that is something you can see.This reminds me of the Jews,always needing to SEE a sign before they would accept what they were being told to do.
@USAFreedomReform You ask: "Which baptism,the one of the flesh (water) ,or the one of the Spirit (HOLY GHOST)?" Well, I am quite sure Paul said, circa AD 63, "There is one baptism" I have repeatedly asked you how many you think there are today, and you know what? You're silent on it, about like you are on "nothing you can do, all you have to do is...." <-- don't forget that
@USAFreedomReform Don't forget that I asked for ANY early Christian, ANY so-called "church father", ANY contemporaneous profane Greek text ... ANYthing ... that would lend support to your idea that "born of water" means anything other than water baptism. Every early Christian that I ever heard of says it means "water baptism". All I have right now is your assertion that it means .. ummm .. childbirth?
@lllannallll "ANY contemporaneous profane Greek text ... ANYthing ... that would lend support to your idea that "born of water"means anything other than water baptism. Every early Christian that I ever heard of says it means "water baptism"
What did Jesus mean when he said "WHAT IS FLESH IS FLESH AND WHAT IS SPIRIT IS SPIRIT" then?
Why did John the baptist say, I baptise with water but one comes after me that baptises with the HOLY GHOST?
@USAFreedomReform Also don't forget that you've never quite explained "Jesus did it all .. nothing you can do .. all you have to do is .." I've repeatedly pointed out that there IS no "all you have to do is" if there's "nothing you can do." You pass right on by, as if you think you're making good sense. And when I ask if salvation is conditional - yet there's nothing we can do - you refuse to answer.
@lllannallll "And when I ask if salvation is conditional - yet there's nothing we can do - you refuse to answer"
I know this is your logic and I will try to respect that.
If a person receives salvation or not it is based on one condition, YOU MUST BELIEVE ON THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST TO HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE. Thats in John 3:16. John 3:17 GOD didn't send Jesus to condemn the world but thru Jesus the would might be saved. It is a CHOICE or as you put it,a condition.
@USAFreedomReform And LOL @ the statement about "one baptism that 'counts'." Where'd you learn that one? Paul said, "There is one baptism", period. At ONE time, there were multiple ones, but by AD 63, there was one. And you haven't the slightest evidence that you are "baptized in the Spirit."
@lllannallll "And you haven't the slightest evidence that you are "baptized in the Spirit."
Now you are begining to sound like the ATHEIST/Evolutionists/Science crowd. Evidence this and evidence that.
IS there evidence of FAITH? Faith in what you cannot see ! (ie.baptism by the HOLY SPIRIT thru Jesus Christ,also cannot see GOD but I have faith GOD is there, Also didn't witness Jesus Birth,death and being raised from death to ascend into heaven, but with FAITH, I know it is true).
@lllannallll "Paul says,"there is one",and here you are,saying otherwise" Are you going to rely on what a man said (PAUL) or are you going to rely on what GOD/Jesus Christ said. I guess since you go by what the disciples said over what Jesus Christ said,you will have to change the name of the CoC to the Church of PAUL,PETER,JAMES,JOHN, etc, etc. Remember this,the books in the NT after the gospels&Rev. were letters to churchs of that day,written years after the events took place.
@USAFreedomReform "Are you going to rely on what a man said (PAUL) or are you going to rely on what GOD/Jesus Christ said." So, in a nutshell, was Paul WRONG? You kinda imply this and that, but rarely step up to the plate and lay it out there. Did Paul lie about it? Was he just mistaken? And how do you know what Jesus said, anyway? Weren't His words simply written by "a man"? C'mon
@USAFreedomReform "If Paul was wrong about water baptism,then you are also wrong." I didn't ask the consequences if Peter or Paul were wrong, did I? No, I asked you, "WERE THEY WRONG?" Answer it.
@USAFreedomReform "If Paul was right about Holy Spirit baptism, you are still wrong again." Paul or anyone else ever said that Holy Spirit baptism would continue til the end of time. To the contrary, Paul said tongues would CEASE .. prophesies would FAIL ..and the like. When? When that which (not He who), but THAT which, is perfect or complete is come. You can't prophesy nor can you speak in an unknown language nor can you raise the dead. So Paul was right, and you're wrong.
@USAFreedomReform ""And how do you know what Jesus said, anyway? Weren't His words simply written by "a man"?"" <-- Explain the first part, because Jesus' words most assuredly were recorded by Luke and John, and yet when these same authors penned Acts, I, II, III John, and Revelation, you relegate them to "error-prone" status. How is that? More importantly, WHY is that?
@lllannallll "you relegate them to "error-prone" status.How is that?More importantly, WHY is that"
The truth is in the word(of GOD) and baptism does not mean baptism in WATER.
But I was baptised in water as a symbol of my following in the footsteps of Jesus Christ.Just like my being circumcised,my parents did that following the ways of Jesus.(Are you circumcised)Jesus didn't need baptism in water but took it.I think the purpose Jesus took it was this":{TO RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT}
@ Ydnar0591 - John may not have spoken of Repentance in his gospel, but he tells us much in Revelations, what Jesus spoke concerning repentance ;
Revelation 2:5
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and REPENT, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
The New Covenant went into force at the moment of Christ's death (Heb. 9:16-17, Mk. 15:37-38); the elect thief died under the New Covenant (Jn. 19:32-33), but never was baptized in water: this is known because he was lost at the beginning of Christ's Crucifixion and was saved at the end of It (Mt. 27:44, Mk. 15:32, Lk. 23:39-43). This is irrefutable proof that water baptism is not essential for salvation. What saith the Scripture? Lk. 7:50 (KJV): "Thy faith hath saved thee."
This verse is a matter of interprtation, You prove my point, It's NOT H2o ,or putting away filth {water} but baptism of the Holy Ghost, when we believe, that is our conscience. vs 20 Noah may have been saved by water But Peter is saying we are not.
Which baptism saves..John's OR Jesus's? Only 1 counts:...Eph. 4:5
@ydnar0591 "Which baptism saves..John's OR Jesus's? Only 1 counts:...Eph. 4:5" Only ONE now EXISTS. There is but ONE! Forget the modifying "that saves" you tacked on. Forget the "that counts" that you tacked on. John's baptism, by the way, became DEFUNCT in the first century and couldn't possibly serve any purpose today. However, you neglected to mention the baptism of the Great Commission.
@ydnar0591 "1 Peter 3:21 This verse is a matter of interprtation, You prove my point, It's NOT H2o ,or putting away filth {water}" Matter of interpretation? Well, it's a difficult verse, but ANY interpretation that tries to twist it into saying "baptism doth NOT now save us" is a little suspect, wouldn't you say? Water baptism or Christian immersion is NOT for removing DIRT from the BODY, but, rather, is an APPEAL, a REQUEST.
Abraham "BELIEVED GOD and it was counted unto him for righteousness" !
Many people join a Church and are H2o baptized, are they SAVED?
There are many things we SHOULD {SHALL} DO, but only 1 thing we MUST DO. Also in Acts:
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what.. MUST... I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Acts 16:31
Why did Apostle John NOT include word "REPENT" in his GOSPEL?
@ydnar0591 You said, "Many people join a Church and are H2o baptized, are they SAVED?" I'd say if they "join a church" (as you said), they are sorely LACKING. As far as the New Testament is concerned, I read about being "added" to the church or "translated" into the kingdom, both passive voice. God does the "adding": He won't make any mistakes. As far as actively "joining" some religious group, no, I never heard of that in the Bible.
@ydnar0591 "Why did Apostle John NOT include word "REPENT" in his GOSPEL?" A better question is, "Why is repentance mentioned in THREE out of FOUR gospel accounts, and then mentioned repeatedly in the book of Acts? I'd surmise that the Book of John was written LONG after the other other three gospels, and John filled in many details NOT MENTIONED in the other three. Repentance, however, was REPEATEDLY mentioned, and your point borders on plain silly.
I can always tell when someone feels like they are "slipping". They begin the "Name calling" You have so far called me a possible THIEF, SILLY etc...., and I would have to back over your comments to find any others. You also called the Baptists.... B**T Buddies.....very representative of your Church affilliation. Fithy talk is great good works...good example to set for the lost who might be,{and most likely are} observing these comments, and "WAS" considering your witness as true.
@ydnar0591 "They begin the "Name calling" You have so far called me a possible THIEF, SILLY etc" Nope, I said you might BE a thief, but you won't be saved like the THIEF ON THE CROSS. You aren't a JEW, I presume. You do not LIVE under the Mosaic dispensation. You won't be crucified under JEWISH LAW. And you won't be SAVED like that thief was, prior to the Great Commission. I said your POINT about the book of John not containing "repent" is kinda silly - and it is.
I said "you called me a "POSSIBLE" theif",is'nt that the same as might be? I am Saved that's what's important.
I know the Cof C is like the rest of the sects, NO ONE IS SAVED UNLESS THEY BELONG TO "OUR" GROUP. That's what the Mormons. JWs, some RC sects.. It's another trait of theirs.
Anything you have no REASONABLE answer to, is SILLY to you...that's just a cop-out. Like the weak answer you gave about John's Gospel being written later on, and filling in now that is odd.
@ydnar0591 "Like the weak answer you gave about John's Gospel being written later on, and filling in now that is odd." I know of NO SCHOLAR from ANY GROUP who does not believe that the Gospel of John was written YEARS after the other three. If you have additional information that might clarify the date of composition, I'd be glad to hear it.
@ydnar0591 "I know the Cof C is like the rest of the sects, NO ONE IS SAVED UNLESS THEY BELONG TO "OUR" GROUP." I don't recall ever saying that. I said that EVERYONE who trusts in Jesus Christ, repents of his sins, confess his faith in Christ, and based upon his belief and confession, is immersed into Christ unto the remission of sins is SAVED. At THAT POINT, and not before, he is ADDED to the church - translated into the kingdom. One can't JOIN the church.
I did'nt say you did say it and I can't read minds... but Jimmy Allen amde it pretty Clear during the Debate. YOU know he denied the Evangelicals are his brothers. He says because they deny baptism as essential doctrine. If they are baptized it should'nt matter they were obediant.
However their magazine supposedly wrote [I have'nt read it, it was read on YouTube} that if people are not baptized the CofC "WAY" they are not SAVED.
@ydnar0591 "YOU know he denied the Evangelicals are his brothers." He never explicitly DENIED it, to my knowledge. And I'm not sure what an "evangelical" is (according to the Bible), but those guys were basically "NOTHINGS" - they were so-called and self-styled "Baptists" (whatever that is: the Bible knows nothing of them), and they can't find a "Baptist church", "Baptist Manual", "Baptist church constitution", or "Baptist" anything-else since Adam wore Rompers.
Someone who preachs the Gospel in all the world, reaching the lost for Christ..."THE GREAT COMMISSION"...A very worthwhile endevour IF you have the "RIGHT GOSPPEL" ???
@ydnar0591 Me: And I'm not sure what an "evangelical" is (according to the Bible). You: "Someone who preachs the Gospel in all the world" Well, I stipulated "according to the Bible", and I sincerely doubt if you can even find the word "evangelical" in there. Your statement also implies that the church of Christ is NOT Evangelical (whatever that is), but by your definition, the church most definately IS.
@ydnar0591 ""I believe that the Aspotle John KNEW that the word BELIEVE for serious believers already contains REPENTANCE within the word it'sself." Oh, c'mon. Those old Jews became BELIEVERS in Acts 2 when they were cut or pierced to the heart and cried out "What shall we DO?" Also, they weren't told to BELIEVE (because they already DID), but were told to REPENT. That alone is enough to say "faith" and "repentance" need not be connected as you surmised.
That is not a good answer to John not having the word "REPENT" in his Gospel anywhere in any form of that word. We Evangelical Christians say that we believe that repentance and faith are 2 sides of the same Gospel coin. John must believe that also. When we say Believe we know it is a repentant belief..just like John 3:16. When we say repent we know it's a believing repentance.
Paul used neither word in 1Cor 15:3-4 but vs 3-4 are "What".. we are to "Believe" ..Grace.
@ydnar0591 " When we say Believe we know it is a repentant belief..just like John 3:16." Then, upon the same principle, you can say that "salvation by faith" means "salvation by a living, working faith" that includes baptism. The same doorway that allows the ONE will allow the other.
The CofC guys want H2o baptism to become as essential as Faith ittself. Well if you do that then you MUST add in all the other commands of Christ. Christ said to be water batized. He also said go into all the World and preach the Gospel as a command, so do we have to share our faith to be saved? Read the Bible ? some folks can't read? Tythe? Pray always? Go to Church? Hebrews 10:25? Where doe it end ? Keep going and "Faith in the Blood of Jesus" will get lost in the crowd. Maybe that's the plan?
Repentance is in the heart, that only God can see. It would be possible for someone to repent out loud and NOT mean it, BUT the heart will reveal it to GOD. THEY the CofC are making or in a sense ,trying to FORCE H2o baptism ...to be part of saving faith which it isn't, BUT they WANT it to be part of saving faith the same as Believing/Repentance,Baptism of the Holy Spirit.They are trying to force their non-essential doctrine to be essential to ALL people. If you add this you must add a lot more!
@ydnar0591 "They are trying to force their non-essential doctrine to be essential to ALL people. If you add this you must add a lot more!" If the New Testament places "x" prior to "remission of sins" - remission of past sins - then you're RIGHT! However, "going to church" and "praying always" are not placed in that position, are they?
1 part Hydrogen and 2 parts oxygen does NOT SAVE anyone !
Also in the last segment the CofC guy talked about Romans 3 not mentioning REPENT, well I believe that the Aspotle John KNEW that the word BELIEVE for serious believers already contains REPENTANCE within the word it'sself.
Look in the GOSPEL of JOHN and see if you can find the word REPENT or any form of that word, REPENTANCE, REPENTING, REPENTED etc? IT's not there!
However the word BELIEVE is in JOHN'S GOSPEL 85 TIMES
@ydnar0591 "I believe that the Aspotle John KNEW that the word BELIEVE for serious believers already contains REPENTANCE within the word it'sself." No, it doesn't - not in Greek, English, or Pig-Latin. One maybe BELIEVE and not YET have REPENTED, as the believers who asked, "What shall WE DO?" in Acts 2.
@ydnar0591 "1 part Hydrogen and 2 parts oxygen does NOT SAVE anyone !" I Pet 3: 21, "....the antitype whereunto even baptism doth also now save us - not the putting away of the dirt from the body, but an appeal for a good conscience ... " You'll have to argue that one out with Peter.
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world,that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world,that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world,that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
if believeing is enough i guess demons are saved too huh wrong!!! james 2:19 thou believe though does good the demons believe also and tremble!!! so if believeing is enough i guess no one is going to hell huh wrong!!! baptism is very important churches of christ rule!
'Or, to adopt our Southern dialect again, "Y’all repent for the forgiveness of y’all’s sins, and let each one of you be baptized...." When I showed this translation to the late Julius Mantey, one of the foremost Greek grammarians of the twentieth century..., he approved and even signed his name next to it in the margin of my Greek New Testament.'--Dr. E. Calvin Beisner on Acts 2:38, "Christian Research Journal", vol. 28, num. 2 (2004) I have a photostatic copy of this Bible page for anyone.
Rom. 8:9 (KJV): "Ye are...in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Acts 10:47 (KJV): "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?" They were saved BEFORE they were baptized, they were indwelled by the Holy Spirit; water baptism does NOT save: Rom. 3:25 (KJV): "Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through FAITH IN HIS BLOOD...."
Consider the fulfilment of Joel's words in light of what the Lord said, apparently referring to things that would be fulfilled in his own generation - Luke 21:22 - "These be the days of vengeance in which all written shall be fulfilled." Then, consider Acts 2:40: "And with many other words did he (Peter) testify and exhort saying: Save yourselves from this untoward generation." A special time and a special generation, indeed! Per Galatians 4:21-31 - both covenants were apparently in play!
Acts 2:16-21 - "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh...And...my servants and...my handmaidens...shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above and signs in the earth beneath...before that great and notable day of the Lord: And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." This is the context/preface of Acts 2:38 & 22:16!
Did God save Noah -- or did Noah do it? (I Pet. 3: 20-21.) Col. 2:11-12 explains: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. In Christian baptism, man does the obeying; God does the operating. Don't want the "operation?" Then don't obey!
Luke 3:16 John answered, saying to them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I comes, the lace of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
@CBALLEN - Hard to understand any scripture if you don't know both who is speaking and who is being spoken to. To whom was The Baptizer speaking? To everybody? If so, all are condemned to the wrath of God, because that's the "fire" of which he speaks. As Peter told those at Pentecost of the risen Christ, "He hath shed forth this which you see and hear," ie., the miraculous manifestation or "baptism" of the spirit repeated once more in history, Acts 10 -- both for that generation only.
Rom. 6:17-18 - "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." The "form of doctrine" is clearly baptism, 6:3-4 makes unmistakably clear. Baptism is a form of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. We are buried and rise again, new creatures -- by God's power, not our own. When "made free from sin?" "Then." Upon obedience.
@CBALLEN Re: John's, "he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire...." Make no mistake about this: John preached to and among the Jews, only. His description of the coming Messiah was a warning as well as a promise. No doubt that on Pentecost, those who preached to the Jews were appointed by God to do so: "This is that spoken by the prophet Joel," Peter said. Believe it. Then again, with the Gentiles, Acts 10. "Fire" was judgement. One you can't have. The other you don't want.
@lllannallll On the issue of "FRUIT", fruit is not speaking in tongues,raising the dead, Ect. Fruits of the spirit are meekness,gentleness,kindness, Ect. Who exactly did you learn the Bible from?
USAFreedomReform 1 week ago
@USAFreedomReform "On the issue of "FRUIT", fruit is not speaking in tongues,raising the dead, Ect." A "fruit" is merely a "resulting action or attribute" - and certainly speaking in tongues, raising the dead, and the like were and would STILL be a result of Holy Spirit baptism.
lllannallll 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@lllannallll "and certainly speaking in tongues,raising the dead,and the like were and would STILL be a result of Holy Spirit baptism
That is dependent upon what GOD wants. Even when Jesus Said it,it was a power given by the HOLY GHOST to be able to do those things, and was the decision of the Holy Ghost who had it and who did not.
If there is a need for that today(which I think there should be)the HOLY SPIRIT will decide when and where it will be used.
USAFreedomReform 1 week ago
@USAFreedomReform "Fruits of the spirit are meekness,gentleness,kindness," LOL. Don't tell me you are gonna claim Holy Spirit baptism, and the only "fruits" or "results" you can come up with are INVISIBLE and UNPROVEABLE. You're not like the apostles in Acts 2 or Cornelius in Acts 10, are you?
lllannallll 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@lllannallll "Don't tell me you are gonna claim Holy Spirit baptism, and the only "fruits" or "results" you can come up with are INVISIBLE and UNPROVEABLE"
Is meekness,gentleness,kindness INVISABLE and UNPROVEABLE? I can see when a person is kind,gentle,meek.
Are you saying you can not see these things?
USAFreedomReform 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@lllannallll "You're not like the apostles in Acts 2 or Cornelius in Acts 10,are you?"
What you expect me to be EXACTLY like these you mentioned?
Were Peter and Cornelius EXACTLY the same?
I KNOW they were not and neither am I 1900 years later EXACTLY like them.
C'mon ole spirit of anti-christ you can do better than this !!
USAFreedomReform 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@lllannallll Act 2:39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call.
HAVE YOU ANSWERED THAT CALL FROM GOD YET?
USAFreedomReform 1 week ago
Comment removed
USAFreedomReform 1 week ago
@lllannallll You are not in authority to tell me if I have the Holy Spirit or not.When you put youself in that place you are making yourself "a god" anf placing judgement on me. But I can tell what you are by the "FRUIT" you bear.
USAFreedomReform 1 week ago
@USAFreedomReform "You are not in authority to tell me if I have the Holy Spirit or not." I didn't say that: I said you do not have the GIFT of the Holy Spirit spoken of in Acts 2: 38, nor are you "Spirit-baptized." Reception of the gift of the Spirit and Spirit baptism = miraculous manifestions, and you don't have any.
lllannallll 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@lllannallll "Reception of the gift of the Spirit and Spirit baptism = miraculous manifestions, and you don't have any"
How could you possibly know that?
USAFreedomReform 1 week ago
@USAFreedomReform "But I can tell what you are by the "FRUIT" you bear." Same here. And anyone who claims Spirit baptism like Peter and Paul oughta TALK like Peter and Paul, and you never read about them saying, "Nothing you can do, all you have to do is" or claiming that the element and administrator of Spirit baptism are the SAME THING.
lllannallll 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@lllannallll "claiming that the element and administrator of Spirit baptism are the SAME THING"
BOTH are JESUS CHRIST? With GOD all things ALL THINGS are possible !!
I won't talk exactly like Peter or Paul but, each person has a little different way to explain things or put things into words. Don't fault me for that, that is just being HUMAN.
USAFreedomReform 1 week ago
@USAFreedomReform "But I can tell what you are by the "FRUIT" you bear." CERTAINLY! And the "fruit" of Holy Spirit baptism was miracles! Tongue-speaking, dead-raising, snake-bitten miracles, without fail. Mark 16: 9-20 says, "they SHALL" and they DID, but you DON'T. So the fruit ain't there. That's not "judgement" - that's common sense. I'd like to see on what grounds you deny the testimonials for witch doctors - you couldn't.
lllannallll 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@lllannallll "I'd like to see on what grounds you deny the testimonials for witch doctors - you couldn't"
I don't make a habit of associating with witch doctors, DO YOU?
USAFreedomReform 1 week ago
Comment removed
USAFreedomReform 1 week ago
Comment removed
USAFreedomReform 1 week ago
@USAFreedomReform " But I was baptised in water as a symbol of my following in the footsteps of Jesus Christ. "
You say you had Holy Spirit baptism , but you were baptized in water because you needed a symbol ? For WHAT ? ?? If you truly had already recieved the Holy Spirit you would know that the recieving of it was all the proof you needed
Bobsblues 2 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@USAFreedomreform "So, Jesus has died and is risen now , so Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to us as a gift through being baptised in the HOLY SPIRIT that cleans the soul , not the flesh."
Dont keep repeating that same baloney that Baptism of the Holy Spirit comes by belief and has replaced water baptism. Recieving of the Holy Spirit comes AFTER baptism . We see this in Acts 19
Bobsblues 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform - "Why then did John the baptist (the forerunner of Jesus Christ)say this:
Mar 1:7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. "
At the time that John was baptizing, Jesus had not yet died and sent the Holy Spirit. Johns baptism did not confer the Holy Spirit.Baptism after Jesus death could.
Bobsblues 2 weeks ago
@Bobsblues "Baptism after Jesus death could"
So, Jesus has died and is risen now , so Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to us as a gift through being baptised in the HOLY SPIRIT that cleans the soul , not the flesh. The water cleans the flesh but can not clean the soul. Water can't even take away the sins of the FLESH but the HOLY SPIRIT that dwells within the gifted person does clean the soul and flesh. Thats what I get from this scripture and the HOLY SPIRIT within me.
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@USAFreedomReform "Who came up with that phrase of being baptised in "water" in the name of the Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost? "
Um , lets see now - John the baptist baptized people in Water, Jesus was Baptized in Water, his Apostles baptized people in Water while Jesus was alive and continued to do so after His death. We see the Apostles still continuing Water baptism even after they had the Holy Spirit descend on them.Now just what would make anyone think We need water for Baptism ???
Bobsblues 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform "@Bobsblues Found it but no mention of "WATER" Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen."
It doesnt have to mention water , because THAT was what Baptism was .
Bobsblues 2 weeks ago
@Bobsblues "It doesnt have to mention water , because THAT was what Baptism was"
Why then did John the baptist (the forerunner of Jesus Christ)say this:
Mar 1:7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform By the way, is your position that Matt 28: 19,20 do not refer to water baptism, but to Spirit baptism? It looks like it.
lllannallll 2 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@lllannallll "is your position that Matt 28: 19,20 do not refer to water baptism, but to Spirit baptism"
You got it. It is Spiritual Baptism.
In an earlier statement I made where I was refering to Jesus receiving the HOLY SPIRIT after being baptised in water.
Jesus kept that Holy Spirit until he died on the cross.(He gave up the Ghost) After he was risen and came and stayed for the (was it 40 days)and after he told them he would send a comforter when he ascended into Heaven.
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform "Why then did John the baptist say, "but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost." Because the promise was YET FUTURE at that time. NOW it is fulfilled and has BEEN fulfilled for over 1900 years. Holy Spirit baptism, with accompanying miracles and inspiration, are not NECESSARY now. We have the written, confirmed, perfect word of God.
lllannallll 2 weeks ago
@lllannallll "Holy Spirit baptism,with accompanying miracles and inspiration, are not NECESSARY now"
So you don't think the Holy Spirit is as real today as it was over 1900 years ago. Well if you speak against the Holy Spirit, the comforter that Jesus spoke of in Jhn 14:16,26 15:26 , &16:7 then you will not be forgiven in the life or the next life that follows. (Mat 12:32& Mark 3:29)
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform "Well if you speak against the Holy Spirit" Yeah, and if you attribute certain activities to the Spirit TODAY, you are guilty of an anachronism, and bound to make other errors in connection with it. Did Jesus promise the baptism of the Spirit to EVERY SAVED PERSON on a PERPETUAL BASIS? I think not.
lllannallll 2 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@lllannallll "Did Jesus promise the baptism of the Spirit to EVERY SAVED PERSON on a PERPETUAL BASIS? I think not"
WE SHOULDN'T EVEN BE HAVING A DISCUSSION ABOUT THIS IF IT WERE MADE CLEAR FOR ALL TO SEE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
CAN A MAN BE WRONG IF HE FOLLOWS THE TEACHING OF JESUS CHRIST ALONE INSREAD OF OTHER MENS TEACHING AFTER JESUS CHRIST.
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform Here's an example: you said that if you didnt apprehend the meaning of a verse (inspired by the Spirit), why, then you pray for the Spirit to reveal the meaning that the Spirit failed to make clear in the first place. So the Spirit illuminates the Spirit's own production which aid you in understanding it. Does that make a lick of sense? You'd put dictionaries out of business - why have one?
lllannallll 2 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
GOD said all the way back in the very beginning of the old law,"Thou shall not have any other gods before me".
If people think water will save them,isn't that the same as putting a physical god(water) before GOD?
Think about it.
JESUS DID IT ALL ON THE CROSS !! All we have to do is repent & believe on the name of Jesus Christ to be SAVED ! !
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform "one baptism that 'counts' "
There Is only ONE baptism that counts, its being baptized in water, in the name of the Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost.
Bobsblues 2 weeks ago
@Bobsblues "There Is only ONE baptism that counts, its being baptized in water, in the name of the Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost"
I only ask this question:
Who came up with that phrase of being baptised in "water" in the name of the Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost?
I am not against water baptism just in case you didn't know already.
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@Bobsblues Found it but no mention of "WATER"
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
Comment removed
USAFreedomReform 3 weeks ago
the irish guy knows his stuff!!
uwique 4 weeks ago
Comment removed
USAFreedomReform 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
2 Peter Chapter 1:vers.4-10 These are the things we need to add to or faith. From Genesis to Revelation God has all ways gave the world two options live Godly are die spiritually.
brotherfrank62 2 months ago
Baptism is essential for Salvation.......simple
if you think Faith is enough......why not be baptized and make it a safe bet....that would be the SMART DECISION!
bricemilleson 4 months ago
@bricemilleson "Baptism is essential for Salvation.......simple"
Which baptism,the one of the flesh (water) ,or the one of the Spirit (HOLY GHOST)?
If you say WATER, then why was Jesus Christ even resurected , if his shed blood does it all through the water today,then why do we need Jesus?
USAFreedomReform 3 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform "Which baptism,the one of the flesh (water) ,or the one of the Spirit (HOLY GHOST)?" What about "baptism by fire" and "baptism of sufferings". You left those out, but no matter, there is ONE baptism today. There was ONE by AD 62 or 63 when Ephesians was penned. "One Lord, one faith, one baptism ... " Now. How many do YOU practice? Two? Five? Twenty? Positively amazing. Paul says, "there is one", and here you are, saying otherwise.
lllannallll 3 weeks ago
@lllannallll "Paul says,"there is one",and here you are,saying otherwise"
I don't know where you learned to read,but I never said anything like that.I was asking a question of which baptism was being discussed.Why should I have even asked.You only believe in the baptism of the flesh(water).How can baptising the flesh help the spirit?What you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.Will you be flesh or spirit in heaven? The real baptism that counts *is* the baptism by the Holy Spirit.
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform "I don't know where you learned to read,but I never said anything like that." Sure you did. You've spoken of people correctly receiving Holy Spirit baptism today, and people correctly receiving water baptism today. That's two. It is most certainly true that you never flat-out answered, "How many baptisms are there today?" You've been asked several times to no avail.
lllannallll 2 weeks ago
@lllannallll "Paul says,"there is one",and here you are,saying otherwise"
Are you going to rely on what a man said (PAUL) or are you going to rely on what GOD/Jesus Christ said.
I guess since you go by what the disciples said over what Jesus Christ said,you will have to change the name of the CoC to the Church of PAUL,PETER,JAMES,JOHN, etc, etc.
Remember this,the books in the NT after the gospels&Rev. were letters to churchs of that day,written years after the events took place.
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform "Are you going to rely on what a man said (PAUL) or are you going to rely on what GOD/Jesus Christ said." How about I rely on what BOTH said and not try to force a contradiction between the two? I think I'll take into consideration WHEN they were said. The promise of the Holy Spirit, along with Holy Spirit baptism, was (1) made, (2) fulfilled, and (3) terminated.
lllannallll 2 weeks ago
@lllannallll "what BOTH said and not try to force a contradiction between the two"
Who is the important one of the 2. Paul was talking of baptism by the HOLY SPIRIT, not water.
"The promise of the Holy Spirit,along with Holy Spirit baptism,was(1)made, (2) fulfilled, and (3) terminated"
Explain what you posted above. THIS sounds to me as if you don't Think the HOLY SPIRIT IS STILL WITH YOU .
Do you not feel the quickening in your chest cavity,and the overflow of warmth head to toe?
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform "Do you not feel the quickening in your chest cavity,and the overflow of warmth head to toe?" I think you're describing an orgasm.
lllannallll 2 weeks ago
@lllannallll This is reply to your use of water to gain salvation instead of the Holy Spirit.
Mar 3:29,30 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.
You use of a term describing a sexual function is going overboard, don't you think.
Where is your FAITH, and how strong is it?
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform "You use of a term describing a sexual function is going overboard, don't you think." No, I thought it was pretty good. One way you seek to "prove" the miraculous indwelling is you "feel" it. Well, I could care less about that sort of proof. I can find the same "proof" for patent medicines, witch doctors, and Jack Daniels.
lllannallll 2 weeks ago
@lllannallll "Well, I could care less about that sort of proof. I can find the same "proof" for patent medicines,witch doctors,and Jack Daniels"
So you don't believe that when the HOLY SPIRIT dwells within you,you KNOW it?
You don't believe when a person calls on the name of Jesus Christ,repents and baptised by the HOLY SPIRIT that the OLD MAN has at that point died to sin and the NEW MAN is what you become.
Yet even if we are not in full obedience to GOD, we can still SIN.
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform "So you don't believe that when the HOLY SPIRIT dwells within you,you KNOW it?" I believe you would KNOW it because the Bible INFORMS you of it - not because of some mysterious, indescribable, nebulous "feeling." I can prove Islam, Buddism, and witch doctorism by "testimonies" of their "feelings." That which proves too much proves nothing - and your "feelings" are proving nothing.
lllannallll 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform "You don't believe when a person calls on the name of Jesus Christ,repents and baptised by the HOLY SPIRIT" Certainly not! In the first place, you aren't baptized in the Holy Spirit anyway. In the second place, you are invoking the name of the Lord in water baptism. I repeat: you have not one iota of evidence that you are baptized in the Holy Spirit ... three naughts, two ciphers, and a zero.
lllannallll 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform "This is reply to your use of water to gain salvation instead of the Holy Spirit." And you refer to blasphemy against the Spirit. Well, did Peter blaspheme the Spirit in Acts 2: 38 or I Pet 3: 21? What about Luke in recording Ananias in Acts 22: 16? Paul, when he obeyed Ananias?
lllannallll 2 weeks ago
@lllannallll "Well, did Peter blaspheme the Spirit in Acts 2: 38 or I Pet 3: 21? What about Luke in recording Ananias in Acts 22: 16? Paul,when he obeyed Ananias"
Acts 2:38 Peter never said anything about being baptised by water.(WHERE WAS PETER AT WHEN HE SAID THIS)
1 Pet 3:21 Peter was talking about the "GOOD CONSCIENCE" toward GOD. What is your conscience?
Paul was giving an account of what had happened to him on the road to Damascus and telling those people these things,
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform "1 Pet 3:21 Peter was talking about the "GOOD CONSCIENCE" That's not ALL he talked about is it? "The antitype whereunto even baptism doth also now save us." The whole passage is a type-antitype analogy between the flood waters and water baptism. And the fact is: Peter said that, in some sense, baptism DOES also now save us.
lllannallll 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform "Acts 2:38 Peter never said anything about being baptised by water." Sure he did. One doesn't "get baptized in the Spirit" IN THE NAME - by the authority - of Jesus Christ, and after he is baptized in the Spirit, then receive the gift of the Spirit. But they WERE baptized in the name of the Sacred Three in water, and afterwards RECEIVED the gift of the Spirit.
lllannallll 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform "(WHERE WAS PETER AT WHEN HE SAID THIS?" I do not know for sure, and you don't either - so why ask it? He was in a ROOM. Other people were PRESENT. He was in a HOUSE. He was in JERUSALEM. What do you want, an address? And, pray tell, what further difference does it make whether he was inside or outside, really?
lllannallll 2 weeks ago
@lllannallll "What do you want, an address?"
Found your reply.
Now when Peter was preaching to them in a ROOM,HOUSE,JERUSALEM,with people PRESENT, was there water deep enough in the ROOM to be baptized in?
The scripture never said they left the ROOM to be baptized.
Peter said, REPENT and be BAPTISED EVERY ONE OF YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS and ye shall receive the gift of the HOLY GHOST.
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform "The scripture never said they left the ROOM to be baptized." LOL! So what? They did! Your position is that they were told to "be Spirit-baptized in the name of Jesus Christ". Well, why? "... and ye shall receive the gift of the Spirit." Ummm, can you tell us the difference between the "gift of the Spirit" and "Spirit baptism"?
lllannallll 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@lllannallll There is no difference.The gift of the Holy Spirit is received when you are baptized by the Holy Spirit.
USAFreedomReform 1 week ago
@lllannallll
Without Peter having to say be Baptized in the Holy Spirit and then recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit, he just said Repent, and be baptized(meaning in the Holy Spirit).
There was no mention of a water hole in the UPPER ROOM.
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@lllannallll Peter never mentions being baptized here.
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@lllannallll Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
So when you were saved, DID YOU RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST?
You talk you like you don't have the gift of the Holy Ghost.
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform "You talk you like you don't have the gift of the Holy Ghost." Absolutely I do not. Nor do you. By the way, Joel's prophesy in Acts DOES have a time-limit on it. "It shall come to pass in the last days." Last days of what? Of the Jewish economy. Jerusalem fell in AD70, and Spirit baptism fell with it.
lllannallll 1 week ago
@lllannallll "Jerusalem fell in AD70, and Spirit baptism fell with it"
WHERE IS THAT IN SCRIPTURE?
I'd really like to know.
USAFreedomReform 1 week ago
@USAFreedomReform ""Jerusalem fell in AD70, and Spirit baptism fell with it" WHERE IS THAT IN SCRIPTURE? Joel 2 and Acts 2, among other places. Now, according to Acts 8 and Acts 19, exactly how were the gifts, the manifestations of the Spirit, imparted? By the laying on of apostles' hands - and all the apostles, save one, died before Jerusalem fell. The "last days" of the Jewish economy.
lllannallll 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@lllannallll "Jerusalem fell in AD70, and Spirit baptism fell with it"
Even if it did,that would not eliminate this verse:
Act 2:39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call.
but this was 33 ad and the moon never turned to blood and the sun was not darkened . That was talking of the time when jesus was to return to take his church.
Are you saying that has already happened?
USAFreedomReform 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@lllannallll
Act 2:19 I will show wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke.
Act 2:20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
Act 2:21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
USAFreedomReform 1 week ago
@lllannallll "You talk you like you don't have the gift of the Holy Ghost." Absolutely I do not"
According to your understanding,don't you receive the gift of the Holy Spirit when you are baptized in WATER? Or is it that you just think you are saved and that is as far as it goes.Hey, I up to learn from this exchange as well as teach a little along the way. I know the teaching of the CoC is far different than other body of Jesus Christ teaching.I want to know what you know.
USAFreedomReform 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@lllannallll Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
WOW ! That must have taken a while to put 3000 souls under water and back up.
At this point there was 12 disciples so that would mean each disciple had to baptize 250 ppl each. That was a long day of water baptizing, Huh !
I don't think there is any way possible to baptize 3000 in water,it had to be baptism with the Holy Spirit.
USAFreedomReform 1 week ago
@lllannallll reapsetter was the word I had to punch in to confirm that last post.
REAP SETTER - does that has meaning to you.
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform "Paul was giving an account of what had happened to him on the road to Damascus." He was already in Damascus when he was told to "arise and be baptized." Doesn't matter: to receive this "baptism", Paul had to GET UP. I surmise that one could get Holy Spirit baptism SITTING DOWN. So Paul was told, "Get up... be baptized...wash away thy sins..invoking the name of the Lord."
lllannallll 2 weeks ago
@lllannallll Paul was giving an account of what had happened to him on the road to Damascus and telling those people these things,and then Acts 22:16 , he said and you hear all that I have said and you TARRY! Arise and be baptised,calling on the name of the LORD.(WHERE WAS PAUL WHEN HE TOLD THOSE THIS)
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform Question: "Are you going to rely on what a man said (PAUL) or are you going to rely on what GOD/Jesus Christ said." LOL It's not "either, or" so the query is misworded. But since you think Jesus and Paul are contradictory, I simply asked, "Was Paul wrong?" ... "Did Paul misrepresent?" ... "Did Paul lie about it?" You never answered that.
lllannallll 2 weeks ago
@lllannallll "Did Paul lie about it?"
You must have a kindergarten brain. Paul didn't lie, he was giving his understanding of the facts.
Keep in mind how and when these letteres were written,it was years after the actual event. My faith leads me to believe that the minds of these men through the HS were sharp.
The only way we can know that these letters that these men wrote could be totaly accurate in every fashion is if they paralled in every way with the teachings of JESUS.
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform "Paul didn't lie, he was giving his understanding of the facts." Yeah, ok, and, as per you, Paul might very well have MISUNDERSTOOD certain facts which in turn caused him to ACCIDENTALLY reveal .. umm ... something less that the actual truth ... so it all comes out in the wash, huh? Alright, did Paul reveal the TRUTH about water baptism or did he CONTRADICT Jesus?
lllannallll 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform "Keep in mind how and when these letteres were written" OK, and you keep in mind that these letters were written by men inspired of God who were not dependant upon being "pretty sharp", as you say. What the deal is IS: you, in fact, think Paul, Luke, and Peter DID contradict Jesus at certain points, so it's your task to SPOT their errors. No, sir, Paul and Peter ELABORATED on Jesus' teachings.
lllannallll 2 weeks ago
@lllannallll 'No,sir,Paul and Peter ELABORATED on Jesus' teachings"
Oh so now the the fancy word for opinion is ELABORATE !
Still not good enough to follow since Jesus taught one thing and the disciples added to it in a form that would change it.
Once again, MANS WAYS ARE EVIL WAYS !
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform "Oh so now the the fancy word for opinion is ELABORATE !" Matt 16: 13: the coming of the Spirit following the ascension of Christ was for the PURPOSE of guiding the apostles into "all truth." And, by the say, it seems that EVERY TEACHING of Jesus in the Bible was written by man, and what did you say? "MANS WAYS ARE EVIL WAYS"?
lllannallll 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@lllannallll "OK, and you keep in mind that these letters were written by men inspired of God who were not dependant upon being "pretty sharp", as you say"
Remember who these letter were written TOO. It was those churchs of the day in each or the Cities mentioned in the name of the letter. Was their a letter to YOU?
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform Now we have it: Acts 2: 38 and Acts 22: 16 are "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" by Peter and Ananias, as recounted by Paul, and recorded by Luke. So all four are GUILTY. USAFreedom: "If one believes that Jesus saves at the point of baptism, he's blasphemed. If one believes, Jesus saves at the point of a dead faith, he's in good shape." I don't think you have a very good point on Spirit blasphemy.
lllannallll 2 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@lllannallll "If one believes that Jesus saves at the point of baptism( interject water here), he's blasphemed. If one believes, Jesus saves at the point of a dead faith(interject WHAT !! what is DEAD FAITH?), he's in good shape." I don't think you have a very good point on Spirit blasphemy"
THIS IS NOT WHAT I SAID **AT ALL** !! You are twisting things around that I say and making it fit what you want to think I have said.
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@lllannallll Question for discovery: What do you think about the reference to the HOLY GHOST in some places and the HOLY SPIRIT in other places? Are these the same or 2 in one? I ask because I take for granted that these are the same. I would like your opinion on this.
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform "What do you think about the reference to the HOLY GHOST in some places and the HOLY SPIRIT in other places? " Same thing
lllannallll 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform Alright, I've told you where Peter WAS. You tell me this: does "be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Spirit" refer to "be Holy Ghost-baptized in the name of Jesus Christ ... so you can receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"? If so, that's a strange "take" on a passage, I'd say - seems to be very reduntant, too. Anyway, there you are.
lllannallll 2 weeks ago
@lllannallll "Alright, I've told you where Peter WAS"
Where was Peter? I missed it. Is it on this page?
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform "Where was Peter? I missed it. Is it on this page?" I'll just repeat it: he was in Jerusalem, he was in a building, he was in a house, there was an area for sitting. Anything more is speculation.
lllannallll 1 week ago
@USAFreedomReform "The real baptism that counts *is* the baptism by the Holy Spirit." "There is one baptism." "Arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of Lord." That wasn't Spirit baptism. And if there is Spirit baptism today, then why don't you do away with water baptism so you won't contradict Paul in Eph 4: 4-6.
lllannallll 2 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@lllannallll "And if there is Spirit baptism today, then why don't you do away with water baptism so you won't contradict Paul in Eph 4: 4-6"
PAUL IS NOT GOD OR JESUS CHRIST.You cannot follow mans teaching,you must follow the teaching of Jesus Christ.
You are still leaning on third parties,when the power of GOD is right in you grasp(for the glory of GOD of course)
You just defined the CoC,has the belief but denies the power of GOD !!
Many will say LORD LORD,but have denied GOD!
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@lllannallll "Arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins,calling on the name of Lord"
SO you are telling me that the outer baptising of the body in water washes the SINS of the inner soul away? Do you see how utterly foolish this sounds?
Listen, I don't want to take anything away from you,because if this is what you believe then so be it.
Heres how you must think. It must be on a spiritual level and not of the flesh.
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform You ask: "Which baptism,the one of the flesh (water) ,or the one of the Spirit (HOLY GHOST)?" Well, I am quite sure Paul said, circa AD 63, "There is one baptism" I have repeatedly asked you how many you think there are today, and you know what? You're silent on it, about like you are on "nothing you can do, all you have to do is...."
lllannallll 2 weeks ago
@lllannallll "There is one baptism" I have repeatedly asked you how many you think there are today, and you know what?"
There is only one baptism(of the HOLY SPIRIT). IF you are baptised in the HOLY SPIRIT you receive the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT. Being baptised in water on gets you WET. It is an earthly ritual that JOHN the Baptist started and Jesus Approved of at the time. Even GOD approved of Jesus being baptised. The HOLY SPIRIT came after Jesus ascended and is the comforter.
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@lllannallll "Paul says,"there is one",and here you are,saying otherwise"
Another thought, Do you have FAITH,that you CAN be SAVED without the use of a physical means,which is WATER. In other words , FAITH is what you have without seeing,so the baptism by the HOLY SPIRIT can not be seen. However, if you are baptised in water,that is something you can see.This reminds me of the Jews,always needing to SEE a sign before they would accept what they were being told to do.
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform You ask: "Which baptism,the one of the flesh (water) ,or the one of the Spirit (HOLY GHOST)?" Well, I am quite sure Paul said, circa AD 63, "There is one baptism" I have repeatedly asked you how many you think there are today, and you know what? You're silent on it, about like you are on "nothing you can do, all you have to do is...." <-- don't forget that
lllannallll 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform Don't forget that I asked for ANY early Christian, ANY so-called "church father", ANY contemporaneous profane Greek text ... ANYthing ... that would lend support to your idea that "born of water" means anything other than water baptism. Every early Christian that I ever heard of says it means "water baptism". All I have right now is your assertion that it means .. ummm .. childbirth?
lllannallll 2 weeks ago
@lllannallll "ANY contemporaneous profane Greek text ... ANYthing ... that would lend support to your idea that "born of water"means anything other than water baptism. Every early Christian that I ever heard of says it means "water baptism"
What did Jesus mean when he said "WHAT IS FLESH IS FLESH AND WHAT IS SPIRIT IS SPIRIT" then?
Why did John the baptist say, I baptise with water but one comes after me that baptises with the HOLY GHOST?
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform Also don't forget that you've never quite explained "Jesus did it all .. nothing you can do .. all you have to do is .." I've repeatedly pointed out that there IS no "all you have to do is" if there's "nothing you can do." You pass right on by, as if you think you're making good sense. And when I ask if salvation is conditional - yet there's nothing we can do - you refuse to answer.
lllannallll 2 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@lllannallll "And when I ask if salvation is conditional - yet there's nothing we can do - you refuse to answer"
I know this is your logic and I will try to respect that.
If a person receives salvation or not it is based on one condition, YOU MUST BELIEVE ON THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST TO HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE. Thats in John 3:16. John 3:17 GOD didn't send Jesus to condemn the world but thru Jesus the would might be saved. It is a CHOICE or as you put it,a condition.
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform And LOL @ the statement about "one baptism that 'counts'." Where'd you learn that one? Paul said, "There is one baptism", period. At ONE time, there were multiple ones, but by AD 63, there was one. And you haven't the slightest evidence that you are "baptized in the Spirit."
lllannallll 2 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@lllannallll "And you haven't the slightest evidence that you are "baptized in the Spirit."
Now you are begining to sound like the ATHEIST/Evolutionists/Science crowd. Evidence this and evidence that.
IS there evidence of FAITH? Faith in what you cannot see ! (ie.baptism by the HOLY SPIRIT thru Jesus Christ,also cannot see GOD but I have faith GOD is there, Also didn't witness Jesus Birth,death and being raised from death to ascend into heaven, but with FAITH, I know it is true).
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@lllannallll "Paul says,"there is one",and here you are,saying otherwise" Are you going to rely on what a man said (PAUL) or are you going to rely on what GOD/Jesus Christ said. I guess since you go by what the disciples said over what Jesus Christ said,you will have to change the name of the CoC to the Church of PAUL,PETER,JAMES,JOHN, etc, etc. Remember this,the books in the NT after the gospels&Rev. were letters to churchs of that day,written years after the events took place.
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform "Are you going to rely on what a man said (PAUL) or are you going to rely on what GOD/Jesus Christ said." So, in a nutshell, was Paul WRONG? You kinda imply this and that, but rarely step up to the plate and lay it out there. Did Paul lie about it? Was he just mistaken? And how do you know what Jesus said, anyway? Weren't His words simply written by "a man"? C'mon
lllannallll 2 weeks ago
@lllannallll "Was he just mistaken? And how do you know what Jesus said, anyway? Weren't His words simply written by "a man"?"
If Paul was wrong about water baptism,then you are also wrong. If Paul was right about Holy Spirit baptism, you are still wrong again.
Do you believe the scriptures about the unpardonable sin?
One way to Blaspheme against the HOLY SPIRIT is thinking water is what saves and the HOLY SPIRIT is incapable of saving.
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform "If Paul was wrong about water baptism,then you are also wrong." I didn't ask the consequences if Peter or Paul were wrong, did I? No, I asked you, "WERE THEY WRONG?" Answer it.
lllannallll 2 weeks ago
@lllannallll "No, I asked you, "WERE THEY WRONG?" Answer it"
WHO? You seem to be grasping for straws.
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@USAFreedomReform "If Paul was right about Holy Spirit baptism, you are still wrong again." Paul or anyone else ever said that Holy Spirit baptism would continue til the end of time. To the contrary, Paul said tongues would CEASE .. prophesies would FAIL ..and the like. When? When that which (not He who), but THAT which, is perfect or complete is come. You can't prophesy nor can you speak in an unknown language nor can you raise the dead. So Paul was right, and you're wrong.
lllannallll 2 weeks ago
@lllannallll "And how do you know what Jesus said, anyway? Weren't His words simply written by "a man"?"
Are you a christian believer? I am beginining to wonder.
Belief comes from hearing the word. Faith is what you have by believing the GOSPEL is TRUE !
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@USAFreedomReform ""And how do you know what Jesus said, anyway? Weren't His words simply written by "a man"?"" <-- Explain the first part, because Jesus' words most assuredly were recorded by Luke and John, and yet when these same authors penned Acts, I, II, III John, and Revelation, you relegate them to "error-prone" status. How is that? More importantly, WHY is that?
lllannallll 2 weeks ago
@lllannallll "you relegate them to "error-prone" status.How is that?More importantly, WHY is that"
The truth is in the word(of GOD) and baptism does not mean baptism in WATER.
But I was baptised in water as a symbol of my following in the footsteps of Jesus Christ.Just like my being circumcised,my parents did that following the ways of Jesus.(Are you circumcised)Jesus didn't need baptism in water but took it.I think the purpose Jesus took it was this":{TO RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT}
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@lllannallll You know now what I am (male),if you didn't already.Idon't know if you are male or female.
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@bricemilleson "if you think Faith is enough......why not be baptized and make it a safe bet....that would be the SMART DECISION!"
IS the water just an insurance policy then?
What are you sealed by when you are saved?
USAFreedomReform 2 weeks ago
@ Ydnar0591 - John may not have spoken of Repentance in his gospel, but he tells us much in Revelations, what Jesus spoke concerning repentance ;
Revelation 2:5
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and REPENT, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Bobsblues 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Revelation 2:16
REPENT ; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth
Bobsblues 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Revelation 2:22
Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they REPENT of their deeds.
Bobsblues 7 months ago
Revelation 9:21
Neither Repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
Bobsblues 7 months ago
The New Covenant went into force at the moment of Christ's death (Heb. 9:16-17, Mk. 15:37-38); the elect thief died under the New Covenant (Jn. 19:32-33), but never was baptized in water: this is known because he was lost at the beginning of Christ's Crucifixion and was saved at the end of It (Mt. 27:44, Mk. 15:32, Lk. 23:39-43). This is irrefutable proof that water baptism is not essential for salvation. What saith the Scripture? Lk. 7:50 (KJV): "Thy faith hath saved thee."
Calvinist007 7 months ago
lllannallll
Not in Greek, English or pig Latin...NO you're right It's in the Heart , Men look on the outside, GOD looks on the heart. 1Sam 16:7
lllannallll
1 Peter 3:21
This verse is a matter of interprtation, You prove my point, It's NOT H2o ,or putting away filth {water} but baptism of the Holy Ghost, when we believe, that is our conscience. vs 20 Noah may have been saved by water But Peter is saying we are not.
Which baptism saves..John's OR Jesus's? Only 1 counts:...Eph. 4:5
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 "Which baptism saves..John's OR Jesus's? Only 1 counts:...Eph. 4:5" Only ONE now EXISTS. There is but ONE! Forget the modifying "that saves" you tacked on. Forget the "that counts" that you tacked on. John's baptism, by the way, became DEFUNCT in the first century and couldn't possibly serve any purpose today. However, you neglected to mention the baptism of the Great Commission.
lllannallll 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@ydnar0591 "1 Peter 3:21 This verse is a matter of interprtation, You prove my point, It's NOT H2o ,or putting away filth {water}" Matter of interpretation? Well, it's a difficult verse, but ANY interpretation that tries to twist it into saying "baptism doth NOT now save us" is a little suspect, wouldn't you say? Water baptism or Christian immersion is NOT for removing DIRT from the BODY, but, rather, is an APPEAL, a REQUEST.
lllannallll 7 months ago
lllannallll,
Abraham "BELIEVED GOD and it was counted unto him for righteousness" !
Many people join a Church and are H2o baptized, are they SAVED?
There are many things we SHOULD {SHALL} DO, but only 1 thing we MUST DO. Also in Acts:
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what.. MUST... I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Acts 16:31
Why did Apostle John NOT include word "REPENT" in his GOSPEL?
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 You said, "Many people join a Church and are H2o baptized, are they SAVED?" I'd say if they "join a church" (as you said), they are sorely LACKING. As far as the New Testament is concerned, I read about being "added" to the church or "translated" into the kingdom, both passive voice. God does the "adding": He won't make any mistakes. As far as actively "joining" some religious group, no, I never heard of that in the Bible.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 "Why did Apostle John NOT include word "REPENT" in his GOSPEL?" A better question is, "Why is repentance mentioned in THREE out of FOUR gospel accounts, and then mentioned repeatedly in the book of Acts? I'd surmise that the Book of John was written LONG after the other other three gospels, and John filled in many details NOT MENTIONED in the other three. Repentance, however, was REPEATEDLY mentioned, and your point borders on plain silly.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@lllannallll
I can always tell when someone feels like they are "slipping". They begin the "Name calling" You have so far called me a possible THIEF, SILLY etc...., and I would have to back over your comments to find any others. You also called the Baptists.... B**T Buddies.....very representative of your Church affilliation. Fithy talk is great good works...good example to set for the lost who might be,{and most likely are} observing these comments, and "WAS" considering your witness as true.
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 "They begin the "Name calling" You have so far called me a possible THIEF, SILLY etc" Nope, I said you might BE a thief, but you won't be saved like the THIEF ON THE CROSS. You aren't a JEW, I presume. You do not LIVE under the Mosaic dispensation. You won't be crucified under JEWISH LAW. And you won't be SAVED like that thief was, prior to the Great Commission. I said your POINT about the book of John not containing "repent" is kinda silly - and it is.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@lllannallll
I said "you called me a "POSSIBLE" theif",is'nt that the same as might be? I am Saved that's what's important.
I know the Cof C is like the rest of the sects, NO ONE IS SAVED UNLESS THEY BELONG TO "OUR" GROUP. That's what the Mormons. JWs, some RC sects.. It's another trait of theirs.
Anything you have no REASONABLE answer to, is SILLY to you...that's just a cop-out. Like the weak answer you gave about John's Gospel being written later on, and filling in now that is odd.
ydnar0591 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@ydnar0591 "Like the weak answer you gave about John's Gospel being written later on, and filling in now that is odd." I know of NO SCHOLAR from ANY GROUP who does not believe that the Gospel of John was written YEARS after the other three. If you have additional information that might clarify the date of composition, I'd be glad to hear it.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 "I know the Cof C is like the rest of the sects, NO ONE IS SAVED UNLESS THEY BELONG TO "OUR" GROUP." I don't recall ever saying that. I said that EVERYONE who trusts in Jesus Christ, repents of his sins, confess his faith in Christ, and based upon his belief and confession, is immersed into Christ unto the remission of sins is SAVED. At THAT POINT, and not before, he is ADDED to the church - translated into the kingdom. One can't JOIN the church.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@lllannallll
I did'nt say you did say it and I can't read minds... but Jimmy Allen amde it pretty Clear during the Debate.
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@lllannallll
I did'nt say you did say it and I can't read minds... but Jimmy Allen amde it pretty Clear during the Debate. YOU know he denied the Evangelicals are his brothers. He says because they deny baptism as essential doctrine. If they are baptized it should'nt matter they were obediant.
However their magazine supposedly wrote [I have'nt read it, it was read on YouTube} that if people are not baptized the CofC "WAY" they are not SAVED.
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 "YOU know he denied the Evangelicals are his brothers." He never explicitly DENIED it, to my knowledge. And I'm not sure what an "evangelical" is (according to the Bible), but those guys were basically "NOTHINGS" - they were so-called and self-styled "Baptists" (whatever that is: the Bible knows nothing of them), and they can't find a "Baptist church", "Baptist Manual", "Baptist church constitution", or "Baptist" anything-else since Adam wore Rompers.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@lllannallll
Someone who preachs the Gospel in all the world, reaching the lost for Christ..."THE GREAT COMMISSION"...A very worthwhile endevour IF you have the "RIGHT GOSPPEL" ???
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 Me: And I'm not sure what an "evangelical" is (according to the Bible). You: "Someone who preachs the Gospel in all the world" Well, I stipulated "according to the Bible", and I sincerely doubt if you can even find the word "evangelical" in there. Your statement also implies that the church of Christ is NOT Evangelical (whatever that is), but by your definition, the church most definately IS.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 ""I believe that the Aspotle John KNEW that the word BELIEVE for serious believers already contains REPENTANCE within the word it'sself." Oh, c'mon. Those old Jews became BELIEVERS in Acts 2 when they were cut or pierced to the heart and cried out "What shall we DO?" Also, they weren't told to BELIEVE (because they already DID), but were told to REPENT. That alone is enough to say "faith" and "repentance" need not be connected as you surmised.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@lllannallll
That is not a good answer to John not having the word "REPENT" in his Gospel anywhere in any form of that word. We Evangelical Christians say that we believe that repentance and faith are 2 sides of the same Gospel coin. John must believe that also. When we say Believe we know it is a repentant belief..just like John 3:16. When we say repent we know it's a believing repentance.
Paul used neither word in 1Cor 15:3-4 but vs 3-4 are "What".. we are to "Believe" ..Grace.
ydnar0591 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@ydnar0591 " When we say Believe we know it is a repentant belief..just like John 3:16." Then, upon the same principle, you can say that "salvation by faith" means "salvation by a living, working faith" that includes baptism. The same doorway that allows the ONE will allow the other.
lllannallll 7 months ago
The CofC guys want H2o baptism to become as essential as Faith ittself. Well if you do that then you MUST add in all the other commands of Christ. Christ said to be water batized. He also said go into all the World and preach the Gospel as a command, so do we have to share our faith to be saved? Read the Bible ? some folks can't read? Tythe? Pray always? Go to Church? Hebrews 10:25? Where doe it end ? Keep going and "Faith in the Blood of Jesus" will get lost in the crowd. Maybe that's the plan?
ydnar0591 7 months ago
Repentance is in the heart, that only God can see. It would be possible for someone to repent out loud and NOT mean it, BUT the heart will reveal it to GOD. THEY the CofC are making or in a sense ,trying to FORCE H2o baptism ...to be part of saving faith which it isn't, BUT they WANT it to be part of saving faith the same as Believing/Repentance,Baptism of the Holy Spirit.They are trying to force their non-essential doctrine to be essential to ALL people. If you add this you must add a lot more!
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 "They are trying to force their non-essential doctrine to be essential to ALL people. If you add this you must add a lot more!" If the New Testament places "x" prior to "remission of sins" - remission of past sins - then you're RIGHT! However, "going to church" and "praying always" are not placed in that position, are they?
lllannallll 7 months ago
1 part Hydrogen and 2 parts oxygen does NOT SAVE anyone !
Also in the last segment the CofC guy talked about Romans 3 not mentioning REPENT, well I believe that the Aspotle John KNEW that the word BELIEVE for serious believers already contains REPENTANCE within the word it'sself.
Look in the GOSPEL of JOHN and see if you can find the word REPENT or any form of that word, REPENTANCE, REPENTING, REPENTED etc? IT's not there!
However the word BELIEVE is in JOHN'S GOSPEL 85 TIMES
ydnar0591 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 "I believe that the Aspotle John KNEW that the word BELIEVE for serious believers already contains REPENTANCE within the word it'sself." No, it doesn't - not in Greek, English, or Pig-Latin. One maybe BELIEVE and not YET have REPENTED, as the believers who asked, "What shall WE DO?" in Acts 2.
lllannallll 7 months ago
@ydnar0591 "1 part Hydrogen and 2 parts oxygen does NOT SAVE anyone !" I Pet 3: 21, "....the antitype whereunto even baptism doth also now save us - not the putting away of the dirt from the body, but an appeal for a good conscience ... " You'll have to argue that one out with Peter.
lllannallll 7 months ago
Comment removed
ydnar0591 7 months ago
Comment removed
ydnar0591 7 months ago
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
brotherfrank62 9 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Yes, Believing is enough!
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world,that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
MonteBusa75 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Yes, Believing is enough!
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world,that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
MonteBusa75 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Yes, Believing is enough!
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world,that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
MonteBusa75 11 months ago
if believeing is enough i guess demons are saved too huh wrong!!! james 2:19 thou believe though does good the demons believe also and tremble!!! so if believeing is enough i guess no one is going to hell huh wrong!!! baptism is very important churches of christ rule!
simonandsnow 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
'Or, to adopt our Southern dialect again, "Y’all repent for the forgiveness of y’all’s sins, and let each one of you be baptized...." When I showed this translation to the late Julius Mantey, one of the foremost Greek grammarians of the twentieth century..., he approved and even signed his name next to it in the margin of my Greek New Testament.'--Dr. E. Calvin Beisner on Acts 2:38, "Christian Research Journal", vol. 28, num. 2 (2004) I have a photostatic copy of this Bible page for anyone.
Calvinist007 11 months ago
Rom. 8:9 (KJV): "Ye are...in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Acts 10:47 (KJV): "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?" They were saved BEFORE they were baptized, they were indwelled by the Holy Spirit; water baptism does NOT save: Rom. 3:25 (KJV): "Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through FAITH IN HIS BLOOD...."
Calvinist007 11 months ago
Consider the fulfilment of Joel's words in light of what the Lord said, apparently referring to things that would be fulfilled in his own generation - Luke 21:22 - "These be the days of vengeance in which all written shall be fulfilled." Then, consider Acts 2:40: "And with many other words did he (Peter) testify and exhort saying: Save yourselves from this untoward generation." A special time and a special generation, indeed! Per Galatians 4:21-31 - both covenants were apparently in play!
408knw 1 year ago
Comment removed
408knw 1 year ago
Acts 2:16-21 - "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh...And...my servants and...my handmaidens...shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above and signs in the earth beneath...before that great and notable day of the Lord: And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." This is the context/preface of Acts 2:38 & 22:16!
408knw 1 year ago
Did God save Noah -- or did Noah do it? (I Pet. 3: 20-21.) Col. 2:11-12 explains: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. In Christian baptism, man does the obeying; God does the operating. Don't want the "operation?" Then don't obey!
408knw 1 year ago
Luke 3:16 John answered, saying to them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I comes, the lace of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN - Hard to understand any scripture if you don't know both who is speaking and who is being spoken to. To whom was The Baptizer speaking? To everybody? If so, all are condemned to the wrath of God, because that's the "fire" of which he speaks. As Peter told those at Pentecost of the risen Christ, "He hath shed forth this which you see and hear," ie., the miraculous manifestation or "baptism" of the spirit repeated once more in history, Acts 10 -- both for that generation only.
408knw 1 year ago
@408knw If Water Baptism saves you then a man is needed for your salvation.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
Rom. 6:17-18 - "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." The "form of doctrine" is clearly baptism, 6:3-4 makes unmistakably clear. Baptism is a form of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. We are buried and rise again, new creatures -- by God's power, not our own. When "made free from sin?" "Then." Upon obedience.
408knw 1 year ago
@CBALLEN Re: John's, "he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire...." Make no mistake about this: John preached to and among the Jews, only. His description of the coming Messiah was a warning as well as a promise. No doubt that on Pentecost, those who preached to the Jews were appointed by God to do so: "This is that spoken by the prophet Joel," Peter said. Believe it. Then again, with the Gentiles, Acts 10. "Fire" was judgement. One you can't have. The other you don't want.
408knw 1 year ago